I will never be a randonneur or ultra cyclist

[zennmotion]

I'm probably fundamentally incapable of putting in the endless miles and hours of training anyway, so that's maybe my cop out. However, I've experienced some sleep issues recently, which led to some reading about what happens to a body and brain when deprived of sufficient sleep, leading to some planned changes in how I approach work and life balance. That said, exercise :bike: is obviously a key component to health, but am I wrong to point to extreme (IMO) events that include riding through the night as fundamentally unhealthy,sleep deprivation breaking the body down more than improving fitness and health? I look at blogs and pictures of events like Paris Brest or Dirty Kanza or 24 hr challenges (or longer) and they look insane to me, as in why? I understand challenges and reaching outside your comfort zone but where is the line crossed to unhealthy or perhaps even somewhat risky?

[weisan]

where is the line crossed to unhealthy or perhaps even somewhat risky?

Zen pal, I think this is strictly up to the individual. Similar to ...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gG68iXVGGLE/maxresdefault.jpg

Most hamburgers eaten in three minutes // Guinness World Records

And...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fd/82/90/fd82900515c9ff0d0341d066614e7f15--funny-stuff-funny-pics.jpg
Millennials won't stop taking selfies on top of tall buildings

Wingsuit
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Ocean_Wingsuit_Formation_%286366966219%29.jpg

[tylercheung]

I thought they just set up camp for the night...

[EricEstlund]

The line will be at different points for different athletes. They can certainly be done in unhealthy ways, but doing endurance events is not inherently unhealthy.

[false_Aest]

Back when I was racing and riding north of 9,000 miles/yr I found the shorter the event the worse I did. My sweet spot was 6-8 hours. Crits were the worst!

I never won stuff because I was genetically talented. I won by way of attrition and stubbornness. ... also tramadol :P

It also didn't seem to matter how hard I went or how long, I needed 6 hours of sleep that night -- 5.5 would leave me wasted and I rarely sleep more than 6.5 hours unless I'm sick.

I suspect that there are people thrive on 12+ hour events and 1 hour sleep sessions -- for a period of time.

[marciero]

I agree- "endless miles and hours of training" sounds like no fun to me. On the other hand, I really enjoy riding my bike for endless miles and hours, at least in my limited experience of max 400k. Aside from any other motivations I just enjoy doing it. Another thing is the events you mention are very different from each other. At 200 miles Dirty Kanza is a completely different beast than a 1200k. 24-hour is right on the border. Most people doing the longer rides- 600k and longer-do sleep at some point during the ride. These events have accommodations for that. I would guess that someone who regularly gets enough sleep is not going to suffer long term health effects from the occasional sleep-deprived 600k.

[joosttx]

As the Butthole Surfers said on their epic album, Locust Abortion Technician, “son, its better to regret some you did than something you didn’t”.

I rather shorten my telomeres riding 48 hrs straight than a lifetime of over eating.

[Clean39T]

I rather shorten my telomeres riding 48 hrs straight than a lifetime of over eating.


Death to false dichotomies!

[zennmotion]

I agree- "endless miles and hours of training" sounds like no fun to me. On the other hand, I really enjoy riding my bike for endless miles and hours, at least in my limited experience of max 400k. Aside from any other motivations I just enjoy doing it. Another thing is the events you mention are very different from each other. At 200 miles Dirty Kanza is a completely different beast than a 1200k. 24-hour is right on the border. Most people doing the longer rides- 600k and longer-do sleep at some point during the ride. These events have accommodations for that. I would guess that someone who regularly gets enough sleep is not going to suffer long term health effects from the occasional sleep-deprived 600k.

OK but as a related question/comment how do you train for something like a 1200K without it completely taking over your life? I mean I know people with jobs and family do it, I would have no idea how to approach it, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to sustain it very long. At my max, training for USAcycling events, I would devote 20 hours/week to it, including race time and that was only for a limited period in the summers when I had no family and I regularly sacrificed sleep to do it all.

[joosttx]

i have a wearable which monitors stress through HVR. What I found was lack of sleep, eating poorly, and work stress individually had a similar impact to my stress as a hard set of training on the bike. In fact, the strain I put on during D2R2 was equivalent to travel in multiple time zones and eating and drinking to much in a steakhouse i.e. a business trip. In fact, drinking was the toughest on me than anything.

[zennmotion]

As the Butthole Surfers said on their epic album, Locust Abortion Technician, “son, its better to regret some you did than something you didn’t”.

I rather shorten my telomeres riding 48 hrs straight than a lifetime of over eating.

Well, I gotta check out Butthole Surfers then, sounds like sage advice, though it concerns me some that you're able to quote from memory. As far as crazy riding vs over eating, I have to consider exactly WHAT we're talking about over eating... because there's a few things that would make for a tough decision. Like mom's lasagna for instance.

[Gummee]

Never is a very long time.

It doesn't appeal to me like bungee jumping doesn't appeal. Like skydiving doesn't appeal.

I'd rather ride with a bicycle on the moto and ride in neat spots than tour on the bicycle

M

[marciero]

OK but as a related question/comment how do you train for something like a 1200K without it completely taking over your life? I mean I know people with jobs and family do it, I would have no idea how to approach it, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to sustain it very long. At my max, training for USAcycling events, I would devote 20 hours/week to it, including race time and that was only for a limited period in the summers when I had no family and I regularly sacrificed sleep to do it all.

Again, I cant offer personal experience regarding 1200k; others here can. My own experience with shorter rides is that you prepare by riding longer and longer rides/events. Beyond fitness, you build physical endurance with longer rides. You dont need to add hours to your training to do that, just fewer and shorter short rides. The Randonneurs USA handbook suggests doing a full series-200k, 300k, 400k, 600k-in both the year preceding as well as the same year you try a 1200k. Also this

"Along with cycling ability and physical endurance, a certain amount of bravery and masochism is usually needed to pull it off".

And this

"...your attitude is the most crucial ingredient for success in any 1200k... Experienced randonneurs will tell you that achieving success at such a crazy endeavor is vastly more mental than physical."

[zacstanley]

As the Butthole Surfers said on their epic album, Locust Abortion Technician, “son, its better to regret some you did than something you didn’t”.

I rather shorten my telomeres riding 48 hrs straight than a lifetime of over eating.

I'm happy you mentioned the Butthole Surfers - one of my all time favorite bands. But the quote is a little incorrect. You need full context:

"Daddy?
Yes, son?
What does regret mean?
Well son, the funny thing about regret is that
It's better to regret something you have done
Than to regret something that you haven't done
And by the way, If you see your mom this weekend
Will you be sure and tell her...
SATAN SATAN SATAN!!!!"

[gone]

OK but as a related question/comment how do you train for something like a 1200K without it completely taking over your life? I mean I know people with jobs and family do it, I would have no idea how to approach it, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to sustain it very long. At my max, training for USAcycling events, I would devote 20 hours/week to it, including race time and that was only for a limited period in the summers when I had no family and I regularly sacrificed sleep to do it all.
The notion that you need to do mega miles to successfully complete a 1200K is completely false IMHO and in my experience.

In the 7 months prior to (successfully) completing London-Edinburgh-London I rode 5,670 miles with only 14 rides longer than 100 miles during that period.

During LEL I got an average of 6 hours sleep per night (more accurately, I was stopped for 6 hours so probably more like 5 hours sleep) minimum and was stopped for 8 hours overnight after day 4.

I did a second 1200K 11 days after finishing LEL and a third one 12 days after that.

Oh, and I'm 64.

[Louis]

I think I'll also stick to short rides, like this one:

https://youtu.be/sFUcxnvAeMc

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/31/01/37BC506400000578-3766193-image-a-34_1472604370198.jpg

[muz]

You know what they say; randonneuring is the only sport where you can make up for lack of talent by lack of sleep :banana:

[smead]

My go to training route for 200 milers is 75 miles with about 7K' of climbing. Ridden hard a route like that will translate into long distance speed and endurance.

It also helps if you have a bike commute to work that adds free miles during the week. The only thing I miss about leaving the workplace was my quality commute.

[cloudguy]

I think I'll also stick to short rides, like this one:

https://youtu.be/sFUcxnvAeMc

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/31/01/37BC506400000578-3766193-image-a-34_1472604370198.jpg

I watched the video and it repulsed me - if they weren't filming would the thrill be the same? Such stupid vanity.

[rousseau]

I don't see the appeal of hours and hours on end of the bike either. My sweet spot is 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Another longer just turns into a grind.

However...

...am I wrong to point to extreme (IMO) events that include riding through the night as fundamentally unhealthy,sleep deprivation breaking the body down more than improving fitness and health?

Regular sleep insomnia/deprivation is clearly bad for you, but I can't imagine that doing the occasional all-night event is going to have long-term detrimental effects.

[Louis]

I watched the video and it repulsed me - if they weren't filming would the thrill be the same? Such stupid vanity.

I agree that it does make one quite uncomfortable. You know that the odds are pretty good that eventually those guys get hurt, if not worse. (although my neighbors tell me the same thing about me riding on the relatively quiet roads near my house)

[Peter B]

I'm probably fundamentally incapable of putting in the endless miles and hours of training anyway, so that's maybe my cop out. However, I've experienced some sleep issues recently, which led to some reading about what happens to a body and brain when deprived of sufficient sleep, leading to some planned changes in how I approach work and life balance. That said, exercise :bike: is obviously a key component to health, but am I wrong to point to extreme (IMO) events that include riding through the night as fundamentally unhealthy,sleep deprivation breaking the body down more than improving fitness and health? I look at blogs and pictures of events like Paris Brest or Dirty Kanza or 24 hr challenges (or longer) and they look insane to me, as in why? I understand challenges and reaching outside your comfort zone but where is the line crossed to unhealthy or perhaps even somewhat risky?


About 18 years ago I had the same questions. I'd been riding centuries and was just getting into hard doubles. I'd heard stories of these "crazies" riding through the night and into hallucinations. "Not me" I remember saying, while riding a double century. Two years later I finished my first PBP. Then GRR, RM1200, another PBP (fixed), about 40 doubles, many full brevet series, many fleches, a handful of ultra fixed events and countless self-inflicted sufferfests.

In a typical year I'd only ride 6,000-8,000 miles. Once I'd reached a level of fitness I pretty much kept it, or could reach it again in about 3 weeks. I'd ride 20-ish hours a week, pretty much all the time. As Smead said, frequent commute miles help alot.

Mt first PBP I got very little sleep, mostly due to nervousness. Subsequent 1200s I'd get 3-5 hours a night without too much effort.

The RUSA advice to ride a full series the year before and year of a 1200 is sound.

Give it a whirl. Connect with your local randonneurs and ride some brevets. Read, listen to others and listen to your body and have some fun. Randos are some great people and can make for some great times regardless of what distances you end up chasing.

[palincss]

I'm probably fundamentally incapable of putting in the endless miles and hours of training anyway, so that's maybe my cop out. However, I've experienced some sleep issues recently, which led to some reading about what happens to a body and brain when deprived of sufficient sleep, leading to some planned changes in how I approach work and life balance. That said, exercise :bike: is obviously a key component to health, but am I wrong to point to extreme (IMO) events that include riding through the night as fundamentally unhealthy,sleep deprivation breaking the body down more than improving fitness and health? I look at blogs and pictures of events like Paris Brest or Dirty Kanza or 24 hr challenges (or longer) and they look insane to me, as in why? I understand challenges and reaching outside your comfort zone but where is the line crossed to unhealthy or perhaps even somewhat risky?

Not all randonneuring involves sleep deprivation, endless hours of training and extreme mileages. To call yourself a randonneur, by the official rules you need only to do one 200K brevet. 200K is only 25 miles longer than a century, and won't involve more than a few hours of night riding, and that only if you do it very late in the year.

[marciero]

About 18 years ago I had the same questions. I'd been riding centuries and was just getting into hard doubles. I'd heard stories of these "crazies" riding through the night and into hallucinations. "Not me" I remember saying, while riding a double century...


Glad to hear some experienced long distance randonneurs chime in. I also always told myself I was not interested in events I could not do in one sitting, so to speak, which would put the limit at 400k or perhaps 600k. Why not just go touring? But I have become intrigued. I also do enjoy night time and overnight rides.

[ptourkin]

The Butthole Surfers' Amy/Jimmy Carter story from Our Band Could Be Your Life is a classic: http://shanehazen.blogspot.com/2002/08/this-is-hilarious.html

I'm glad my fellow ultra/rando enthusiasts have weighed in. I know tons of us with normal, healthy and balanced lives. One of the most normal family people I know is poised to podium the DKXL 350 at this very moment.

Some of us seem to need to ascribe negativity to activities or equipment outside our purview. People who say they'll never go tubeless (and have never tried) or 1X is a niche within a niche or would never ride over 100 miles....

Relax, the edges become the center - just look at Washington. I personally will never weigh in on discussions about the various finishes on 10 speed Campy because it is outside my area of expertise.

[unterhausen]

OK but as a related question/comment how do you train for something like a 1200K without it completely taking over your life?
In my opinion, you don't have to train any differently for long distance than you would for anything else. It helps to have your FTP as large as possible. Any specialized training involves getting used to longer distances, but I don't consider that to be training in the sense that you need to devote constant effort. One thing that this involves is learning about sleep. I definitely learned how to sleep as a randonneur. I try to get at least one 90 minute sleep cycle per night. But on the 600k I did, I was really slow because the weather was so bad. So I only got 4x20 minute cycles. I have never felt better leaving that stop, not sure how that works

As far as health effects, I think they are pretty minor. I feel like I get a positive training effect from anything up to 300km, 400km and more seems to be mostly something to recover from. Although, this year I felt stronger after the 400k I did, at least until I caught the cold that my family was passing around.

I just came off a series of 3 rides where I managed to thoroughly immiserate myself, but I'm not asking why I do it. I think the simplest answer is that I just like to ride my bike.

What randonneurs call "hallucinations" are technically illusions. The visual center of your optic nerve gets tired and stops filtering quite as much*. Under normal conditions, your brain never sees these incorrect interpretations of what you are seeing. I have a couple of illusions that happen occasionally when I get tired. I find them entertaining. I suppose some people get so tired that they start believing them, that's a problem that I have never really had.

*strictly non-technical explanation and probably wrong in some significant way.

[fiamme red]

That said, exercise :bike: is obviously a key component to health, but am I wrong to point to extreme (IMO) events that include riding through the night as fundamentally unhealthy,sleep deprivation breaking the body down more than improving fitness and health?Don't medical residents work shifts of 30 to 36 hours? It's probably not ideal for health, but I don't think that sleep deprivation does long-term damage, as long as it is not sustained over many consecutive days.

[93KgBike]

Don't medical residents work shifts of 30 to 36 hours? It's probably not ideal for health, but I don't think that sleep deprivation does long-term damage, as long as it is not sustained over many consecutive days.

It may not harm the doctors, but the patients are harmed (http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030487).

[d_douglas]

As the Butthole Surfers said on their epic album, Locust Abortion Technician, “son, its better to regret some you did than something you didn’t”.

I rather shorten my telomeres riding 48 hrs straight than a lifetime of over eating.

Awesome! You quoted the Butthole Surfers :)

[jambee]

I'm with @josttx

I love spending days in the saddle. 200-400km is my sweat spot.

You know why?

1. You don't go fast, you go long.

2. You are disconnected. Ain't no way you gonna check your mobile during that day. You will have two things in your mind: where is the next checkpoint and when do I eat. That's it. Pure head cleaning.

3. You get to see beautiful places you never would have seen.

4. You feel the ride 3 days later.

5. You have a license to eat as much as you can. Very little activities allow you this privilege. You just eat all the time. It's hella crazy.

But it does take a lot of mental energy, much more than physical energy in my opinion. In fact, my partner know those rides so well, that when I call and say "i am quitting" she always say "EAT SUGAR" and 10 minutes later, i am back on the road smiling!

But to each his own. That's the beauty of cycling.

[smead]

I'm with @josttx

I love spending days in the saddle. 200-400km is my sweat spot.

You know why?

1. You don't go fast, you go long.



Some do both! PeterB who posted above would be one. I've always chuckled at some who carry the stereotype that randoneers are slow. I stick to 200-400K brevets here in CA and in just about every one, there are a few in front who will ring you out good.

One of my favorite memories was doing the SFR 400K a few years ago captaining a very fast tandem. We rode well off the front with one other single. At about mile 210, we approached the last big climb and as we did, a local guy zips up behind us and he's a chatty Kathy. Says he doesn't do brevets because he likes to ride fast. Says he's a real climber. We hit the ~1 mile climb and he jumps off the front. Stoker and the single rider say the same thing at the same time - man I wish we had fresh legs. But we get into a good rhythm with what little legs we have left and after 1/2 mile, we notice mr. hot legs is not pulling away. Pretty soon we're closing. At that point my stoker goes nuts and near the top, we all go blowing by ..., gapped him by 100 yds. or so at the top, then on the descent, he was finished off for good. Good fun!

[Scuzzer]

That said, exercise :bike: is obviously a key component to health, but am I wrong to point to extreme (IMO) events that include riding through the night as fundamentally unhealthy,sleep deprivation breaking the body down more than improving fitness and health? I look at blogs and pictures of events like Paris Brest or Dirty Kanza or 24 hr challenges (or longer) and they look insane to me, as in why? I understand challenges and reaching outside your comfort zone but where is the line crossed to unhealthy or perhaps even somewhat risky?

I missed this post originally because it was during one of my sleep correction exercises. I'll take the opposite viewpoint of many in this thread and caution against playing with sleep deprivation related cycling training.

I trained for ultras a lot during my late 20s and early 30s and at some point during that time I broke my internal sleep clock. It wasn't that I was training an abnormal amount (20-24 hours a week) it was that I would plan sleep deprivation training numerous times per year. I'd get up at 7 am or so, do a full days work, hang out with my wife for dinner and then start riding before nightfall and finish after dark the following day. I got really good at disregarding the normal sleep signals and could easily go 36-40 hours between sleep. And yeah, I did this in January and February in Colorado.

My problems manifested themselves a few years later when I realized my brain wanted to stay awake for 18 to 20 hours but I also slept 6 hours or so a night. Something had to give so now every six weeks or so I just stay up all night and then reset my bedtime by staying awake until 11 or 12 at night. That's what I was doing on Friday when you originally posted this.

I realize this is all anectdotal and since there's only one of me my "experiment" isn't valid, it might have happened whether I pushed it or not but I tend to think it had some influence on my sleep behavior. I might just be a "high responder" to sleep modification.

[Toddtwenty2]

Scuzzer's advice is correct. NPR did a great story on this month or two ago. Losing sleep can't be made up and will come back to haunt you later on.

The link below was only a part of the series, but it supports the anecdotal advice above as well.

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/27/573739653/the-haunting-effects-of-going-days-without-sleep

[Hellgate]

Meh, during my time in the Army I was up for 96 hours straight several times. Painful as it was, caffeine and nicotine...they work wonders and result in some interesting hallucinations...

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[Scuzzer]

No doubt that lots of folks can "nut up" and pull huge hours awake. I will even say that nicotine was one of my tools to fight through the initial stages of sleepiness.

My problem was when I tried to "nut up" to fall asleep. You can't will yourself to do that. I guess I could have just decided to medicate the issue.

[marciero]

I missed this post originally because it was during one of my sleep correction exercises. I'll take the opposite viewpoint of many in this thread and caution against playing with sleep deprivation related cycling training.

I trained for ultras a lot during my late 20s and early 30s and at some point during that time I broke my internal sleep clock. It wasn't that I was training an abnormal amount (20-24 hours a week) it was that I would plan sleep deprivation training numerous times per year. I'd get up at 7 am or so, do a full days work, hang out with my wife for dinner and then start riding before nightfall and finish after dark the following day. I got really good at disregarding the normal sleep signals and could easily go 36-40 hours between sleep. And yeah, I did this in January and February in Colorado.

My problems manifested themselves a few years later when I realized my brain wanted to stay awake for 18 to 20 hours but I also slept 6 hours or so a night. Something had to give so now every six weeks or so I just stay up all night and then reset my bedtime by staying awake until 11 or 12 at night. That's what I was doing on Friday when you originally posted this.

I realize this is all anectdotal and since there's only one of me my "experiment" isn't valid, it might have happened whether I pushed it or not but I tend to think it had some influence on my sleep behavior. I might just be a "high responder" to sleep modification.

Thanks for sharing. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence, is just interpreted differently than scientific. Speaking of scientific, the NPR article was sorely lacking in that, considering they had a scientist on hand. Your experience and that of the NPR subject suggest there might be long term consequences, rather than, say, simply being tired the next day. The statistic about the increased/decreased percentage of heart attack seems more of an immediate consequence, if it can be attributed to lack of sleep at all. I would not think there would be long term consequences from, say, missing a few hours sleep on one night, or even once in a while. I would guess that evolution did prepare us for that.

There is no question that getting enough sleep is good for overall health-plenty of science on that. I wonder if extreme sleep deprivation acts as more of a trauma on the system than the occasional lack of sleep.

[unterhausen]

I feel like we're all different. Randonneuring has trained me in methods of sleeping that most people have no experience with. I am much better at getting sleep now, and I can sleep at any time I want. Yeah, sometimes I wake up at 4am, but actually that's a normal sleep pattern. What isn't normal is not being able to get back to sleep, which I have trained myself to do. One thing I know now is if I feel like I didn't get to sleep, I can figure out logically if I did or not. It's really common on a ride to set the alarm for 90 minutes and to be thinking about the exact same thing upon waking as before the sleep cycle. Most people interpret that as not getting any sleep, but if 90 minutes have passed when you were thinking, say, about changing your rear tire, then you were asleep. This happens _all_ the time.

I know I used to think about long distance cyclists riding in a "sleep deprived" state as some sort of misery. This is not my experience. One 90 minute sleep cycle and I'm good to go for another day with no on-bike sleepiness. And riding for over 24 hours the first day is no problem for me, although I know others that do have problems with it. The longest I have ridden is 4 days, and for that I like to get 3 hours a night with the occasional 5 hour night. But 90 minutes per night works for that too.

Maybe if I rode RAAM or TABR, I would think differently about it and the long-term consequences. But I have been doing this for 10 years without obvious issues. I know a rider that does a lot more 1200k rides than me and he seems to have issues with chronic fatigue syndrome.

[PaMtbRider]

My sleep deprivation this year has not been voluntary and it sucks. With over 22 years with the same company I got bumped to 3rd shift (10pm-6:30am). Management is working out a way to get me back to my 2nd shift preference (2pm-10:30pm) but it is a union shop and there is only so much they can do.

My fitness is down, my weight is up, and if you asked my wife, I'm sure she would tell you I'm moody.

For me the worst part is no regular sleep pattern. I sleep during the day through the week and sleep at night on the weekends. Some people have the ability to sleep anytime, anywhere but not me.

[marciero]

...

I know I used to think about long distance cyclists riding in a "sleep deprived" state as some sort of misery. This is not my experience. One 90 minute sleep cycle and I'm good to go for another day with no on-bike sleepiness....




This is consistent with what I have read-that the most restful sleep occurs in integer multiples of sleep cycles. For most people this is around 90 minutes. So, for example, sleeping 2 1/2 hours will not leave you more rested than 90 minutes, but 3 hours would. I think this is an old trick, dating to early days of RAAM.