Giro Stage 18+19 (spoilers, of course)

[Jaybee]

I thought Schachmann was very impressive in his endgame today. Totally in control.

Also, looks like cadence and others were right about things not being over, and that ultra was right about Froome keeping his podium chances alive. Nice move by Sky to send Poels up the road to help Froome out for the final 2k.

[Clean39T]

I thought Schachmann was very impressive in his endgame today. Totally in control.


His pain face was epic, and classic. Me thinks he was playing dead keeping something in reserve. Raced his bikah to perfection today - chapeau!

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[galgal]

Ah, Chiappucci at Sestriere. I remember having tears in my eyes when he made it.

[nooneline]

Dumoulin's attack was a freakin' HAYMAKER. Yates made it but had nothing left for the counter, and Dumoulin did. It was an amazing end to the stage and I'm SUPER excited for the next two days. It really could go either way.

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[fignon's barber]

Yes, I cannot wait until especially tomorrow either! 4 GPM including Cima Coppi.




…...and some gravel thrown in as well.

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[livingminimal]

I think Yates was fine giving up some time, just not quite that much. rest day / tt / sprint stage, and then this. It could be the end of the giro catching up with him (made more interesting by the route today) or it could have been a determination that where he really needed his legs is tomorrow on the cima. Hard to say. I dont think he wanted to ship half of his time, but I also think TD will struggle beating him on the next two stages given the type of climbing...we'll see.

[shoota]

Wait there's gravel on tomorrow's stage?!? At what point in the race? Midway right?

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[GonaSovereign]

Wait there's gravel on tomorrow's stage?!? At what point in the race? Midway right?

Yep, they go up the Finestre every few years. Here's the clip from 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1VhH_66ClM

[aellaguno]

There's a cool saying in Spanish, "The devil is wise because of his old age, and not because he's the devil"....

I hope Froome pulls out some magic from his experience during the next two days... its going to be epic.. cant wait!

[shoota]

Cool guys!

Does this gravel climb ever throw a wrench into things or does everyone just take it easy to get it over with and it's no big deal?

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[shoota]

Ahem...well, OK!!!

You have some homework, lad, some serious homework, before you will be allowed to even momentarily glimpse tomorrow's stage.

Your homework today, asap, now, is to watch that video GonaSovereign posted up above, post #12 (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2369700&postcount=12).

Report back your findings before the AM, or no remote for you. :no:

;)
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Already watching it!

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[wc1934]

Is it just me? I find the Giro more exciting than the tour.

[Johnnysmooth]

Oh, si, there most definitely is. ;)
It starts halfway up the Colle delle Finestre, a bit more than halfway through the stage.
45 total hairpins from base to summit, including about 16 on the gravel.
Take that, L'Alpe! :)

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r654/traghetter/finestre_zpsvomfuvwy.jpg (http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/traghetter/media/finestre_zpsvomfuvwy.jpg.html)
.

I've driven up that road - will make for an amazing race tomorrow.

Yates looked pretty cooked today - he is vulnerable. His team will need to put down the hammer tomorrow through most of stage and let Yates take the last climb.

Could be some significant changes on the podium after tomorrow

[Johnnysmooth]

Is it just me? I find the Giro more exciting than the tour.

No, it is not you.
The Giro simply is far more dynamic than the snoozefest that the Tour has become.

[ultraman6970]

Next two stages will be epic.

[simplemind]

Ahem...well, OK!!!

You have some homework, lad, some serious homework, before you will be allowed to even momentarily glimpse tomorrow's stage.

Your homework today, asap, now, is to watch that video GonaSovereign posted up above, post #12 (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2369700&postcount=12).

Report back your findings before the AM, or no remote for you. :no:

;)
.

lmao! :hello:

[galgal]

He was. Even if he was let go, that was pretty good.

Yates says he's completely relaxed, still in control, that tomorrow is better suited to him.
Dumoulin says he was finally able to ride stronger than Yates, seems positive.
Pozzovivo says he (Pozzovivo) is dangerous and that he (Pozzovivo) is "in the ideal position".
Froome says they are all going to attack like banshees over the next two days.
And what if Pinot goes out to have some fun?

Chiappucci says that in his opinion Yates can be beaten, if he gets attacked repeatedly (he seems to be favoring, but not outright predicting, Dumoulin...but I wonder if he in fact really thinks that Pozzovivo can pull it off).

The next two days should be great.
.

Yes indeed, can hardly wait. As Ultra says, could well be epic. So, PL predictions please.The way they have raced, to me either of TD and Yates would be deserving winners. Yates has the stronger team but the wild card is Sky, if TD can latch onto them that could make things very interesting. So I will predict TD pulling it off with Sky assist. That being said, really hoping Pozzovivo can hold onto his podium spot over Froome.
(Btw, pardon unrelated Chiappucci Sestriere reference earlier in thread. You mentioned him and that inevitably for me brings back memories of that memorable stage.)
So, predictions...come on now

[ultraman6970]

IMO this will happen....

Tomorrow will be interesting because Pozzovivo and Froome need a lot of time. Eventhought TD needs time he is in a better position because he only needs to follow wheels and wait for the best, he only needs to get 50 meters ahead the next 2 stages to win this thing again. The others need a couple of kilometers.

That being said, Sky will try to do the same that Contador did to them in the Vuelta a few years back (thing I thought they were going to do 2 stages ago), full gas from the start to isolate yates and decimate the peloton.

So by half Finestre every man should be by himself, punches back and forth seeing froome trying to go long with pozzovivo on tow. For those two is the only option to get the minutes they need, go long the next two stages.

Sky will try to put poels again ahead to wait for froome half way the finestre.

Sky has kiryenka and poels, froome is covered just with those 2. Pozzovivo's team doesnt look super, he has been following wheels since days, same with TD.

This thing will be epic!

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[ultraman6970]

Right here... just put the race... 15 minutes back??? what in the world???

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[ultraman6970]

Was checking the feeds and cant find like what in the world happened... puff or not puff... incredible.

[Ruimteaapje]

Landis all over again

[FL_MarkD]

Just what I was thinking :)

[fa63]

Was checking the feeds and cant find like what in the world happened... puff or not puff... incredible.

Froome had his team blow the race up in the early part, then attack from 80 km out.

This is nuts.

[ultraman6970]

Contador did it with sky a couple of years ago, now pozzovivo realized why they needed to pull a few stages ago. This shouldnt have happen if they had killed froome 3 or 4 stages ago.

Awesome race tho.

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[Jaybee]

Landis all over again

Make sure Yates doesn’t have access to the Jack Daniels tonight.

[trener1]

I really hate this, actually, only because I just can't not think "puff" of some kind at this point. Come on, the gap is now at +2:45 and climbing? This is too surreal.
.

Yeah totally agree, I'd love to see anyone but Froome win, man he makes me sick to my stomach, but it sure looks like he will and also pull off the Giro Tour double.

[Jaybee]

So is TD going to claw some of this back on the final climb? Seems like no one else in his group wants to help.

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[ultraman6970]

I think TD gonna have to TT alone going up because pinot and company are slowing him down. If this thing is 5 seconds at the end of the day TD still can win this and w/o staying that tired as Froomey and team will be.

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[Jaybee]

It's not Yates the liquor stores have to worry about.



.



I follow now - I'm only on my second cup of coffee.

[Jaybee]

I think TD gonna have to TT alone going up because pinot and company are slowing him down. If this thing is 5 seconds at the end of the day TD still can win this and w/o staying that tired as Froomey and team will be.


The white jersey kids aren't helping either. (Nor should they really be expected to).

I'd think Pinot wants to put as much time as possible into Pozzovivo

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[Ruimteaapje]

Only Dumoulin and Reichenbach do the work. Lopez Moreno and Carapaz are saving their strenght to attack on the final climb to fight for the white jersey and Pinot knows that and is now also saving his strenght because Lopez Moreno is a threat for his podium in the GC

And Froome...yeah, might be the last day I've ever watched a race. If he pulls this off I'll have lost that last bit of faith in cycling.

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[ultraman6970]

Pozzovivo is toasted, he will end up like 10 mins back or even more.

TD needs to TT now.

Imagine paul and phill commentaries :D

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[Jaybee]

So he's 65K into a solo attack over 2 major climbs and he looks that fresh? Still pulling time out?

Yeah.

If you're going to do this, you could at least give it a modicum of plausibility.

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[thegunner]

So he's 65K into a solo attack over 2 major climbs and he looks that fresh? Still pulling time out?

Yeah.

If you're going to do this, you could at least give it a modicum of plausibility.

against a group of 5 with 3 elite climbers.

totally normal.

edit: "it's a privilege to see this sort of thing playing out in front of you" << not really

[FL_MarkD]

Froome has no water? Will that hurt him on the final push?

[Big Dan]

Believe.

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[Jaybee]

I do enjoy watching Dumoulin click out tempo while people yo-yo all around him.

[thegunner]

But those other guys..."elite"? Come on, how can they be "elite" when he's making them look like your local MUT-riders? Eh?

;).

true, i suspect i could probably drop them too given their showing today.

[KarlC]

So is TD going to claw some of this back on the final climb? Seems like no one else in his group wants to help.

I do enjoy watching Dumoulin click out tempo while people yo-yo all around him.


Yep make TD do most of the work and then attack him

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[Jaybee]

Yep make TD do most of the work and then attack him

.

4 times so far. Tempos his way back in every time.

[fignon's barber]

For those critics and skeptics: I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that you can't dream big...…….

[Jaybee]

For those critics and skeptics: I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that you can't dream big...…….



I'm on my bike 6 hours a day. What are you on? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[stev0]

tuned in a bit late only to find a somewhat disappointing state of affairs.. :(

[thegunner]

i really with they'd stop telling me i have to admire froome.

[chiasticon]

I wonder what people would think of this performance if the puffer case hadn't come to light...

there's always been a touch of "what...? really?" about Froome's performances. this stuff is just adding fuel to the fire (pouring it on).

[Jaybee]

I wonder what people would think of this performance if the puffer case hadn't come to light...

there's always been a touch of "what...? really?" about Froome's performances. this stuff is just adding fuel to the fire (pouring it on).

I'd be skeptical if any marked rider, prior suspicion or not, soloed from 80k out and put 3+ minutes into Dumoulin/Pinot/stud S. American climbers.

The Landis mention above is apt.

[deechee]

wutt. I tune in a bit too late today and wutt happened?!

[ultraman6970]

One way or another, just epic.

[simplemind]

I'd be skeptical if any marked rider, prior suspicion or not, soloed from 80k out and put 3+ minutes into Dumoulin/Pinot/stud S. American climbers.

The Landis mention above is apt.

Amen...:(

[fignon's barber]

One way or another, just epic.


Absolute. I really don't care about the "preparation", it was great entertainment.

[dieonthishill]

You guys are all talking like Sky didn't have this planned the whole time... If anyone paid attention to Chris's Instagram, you would have seen he was doing training on massive climbs, many of them partially dirt. It was like clockwork that he attacked when he did.

[galgal]

:mad:

[paredown]

Absolute. I really don't care about the "preparation", it was great entertainment.

Agreed--and there is lot to be said for the planning of the Sky team to set it up.

And given that Pinot can't descend (part of the gap increasing), and the two competing for the Young Rider's were annoying passengers, once the gap gets stretched out, it is Demoulin vs Froome respectively soloing up a brutal climb at the end of long day in the saddle--and in that scenario ("preparation" or not) it is hard to imagine Demoulin pulling back time unless Froome cracks.

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[Shortsocks]

Regardless of what's going on drug use or not. This was a damn good stage to watch. Incredibly entertaining watching Froome look at his Stem for 80k.

Good for Froome, bringing excitement back into cycling.

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[Clean39T]

Headed off to buy the domain name now...


www.FroomesOfFarmingham.com


You know, for when he retires to the north end of Kent to sell medicinals :banana:

[shoota]

CRAZYINESS! Tomorrow should be awesome

[dieonthishill]

Oh, well, if he said that on his IG, then it must be legit!!!

In that case, I immediately take all of my ridiculous and unsophisticated suspicions back, of course!
Silly me....
.

What a dumb post.

Never said you couldn't be suspicious, you just shouldn't be surprised.

[Michael Maddox]

Jeez....where IS Simon Yates?

[Heisenberg]

Road cycling was cool while it lasted, I guess.

[FlashUNC]

Paceline: Come for the complaints about hyper defensive, monolothic stage racing that doesn't look like Grand Tours of old, stay for the complaints about doping when racing looks like the Grand Tours of old.

Oh and Froomie totally shouldn't be racing after that whole A sample business. Yeah, it leaked, but sorry bud, time to sit on the sidelines for awhile. I guess Dumoulin gets to be back to back Giro champ in about 3 years time once this all gets worked through the WADA system?

[madsciencenow]

That was wild and crazy and I gotta say I enjoyed it regardless of who’s puffing on what.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fiamme red]

Jeez....where IS Simon Yates?I think he's on the final climb now. ;)

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[ultraman6970]

I do get what you are talking about but from Zombie state to "model magazine" state from one day to another, it will raise puff puff weirdness.

As for the plan? they came up with this pretty much yesterday night, they had nothing to lose and I was calling it yesterday, "froome at the finestre going long" what I was not expecting was yates to be death the way he did, same with pozzovivo... but was not surprise to see froome go because was the obvious thing to do for sky, contador did stuff like that many times and with a worse team than the one Froome has. What is a suprise for me is that he did not die at the end or at least die enough to concede time to the other 5 guys, sucker was going like the duracell bunny.

THe problem and im sure pozzovivo and pinot will think about it, when yates went solo with froome died like a minute behind nobody wanted to pull and help TD. They had helped TD that day. Froome would had been like 5 minutes back w/o any chance to come back and pozzovivo wouldnt had been in this predicament pretty much off the podium.

Today f... pinot turning the screws backwards instead of pulling with conviction because all he needed to do was to get more time to pozzovivo and the rest, the bonus time is so little to be honest that they could have got more time pulling decently with TD, the same with the young riders, at that point they could have left the white competition in standing still for tomorrow and battle with the rest for the podium position, they are right there now. But this is when team plans make conflict with logic...

The nice about this stage is that epic riding came back, the bad thing is that for the tour we will see sky pulling at front the whole race as they have done for the last 8 years?

Epic race, sure... and im happy for that.

You guys are all talking like Sky didn't have this planned the whole time... If anyone paid attention to Chris's Instagram, you would have seen he was doing training on massive climbs, many of them partially dirt. It was like clockwork that he attacked when he did.

[Michael Maddox]

Yates came in at 38'51"

Ow.

[Jaybee]

I do get what you are talking about but from Zombie state to "model magazine" state from one day to another, it will raise puff puff weirdness.

As for the plan? they came up with this pretty much yesterday night, they had nothing to lose and I was calling it yesterday, "froome at the finestre going long" what I was not expecting was yates to be death the way he did, same with pozzovivo... but was not surprise to see froome go because was the obvious thing to do for sky, contador did stuff like that many times and with a worse team than the one Froome has. What is a suprise for me is that he did not die at the end or at least die enough to concede time to the other 5 guys, sucker was going like the duracell bunny.

THe problem and im sure pozzovivo and pinot will think about it, when yates went solo with froome died like a minute behind nobody wanted to pull and help TD. They had helped TD that day. Froome would had been like 5 minutes back w/o any chance to come back and pozzovivo wouldnt had been in this predicament pretty much off the podium.

Today f... pinot turning the screws backwards instead of pulling with conviction because all he needed to do was to get more time to pozzovivo and the rest, the bonus time is so little to be honest that they could have got more time pulling decently with TD, the same with the young riders, at that point they could have left the white competition in standing still for tomorrow and battle with the rest for the podium position, they are right there now. But this is when team plans make conflict with logic...

The nice about this stage is that epic riding came back, the bad thing is that for the tour we will see sky pulling at front the whole race as they have done for the last 8 years?

Epic race, sure... and im happy for that.

This is the part that beggars belief for me. Pulling out time up the Finestrere, pulling out time down the Finestrere, up the Sestriere, down the Sestriere, across the short valley, up the Jaffreau. Not a hint of a crack.

I'll recant if he's trashed tomorrow like he was following Zoncolan.

[Lewis Moon]

God I hate Froome. It's visceral. He's a skeletal cyborg with all the color removed. It's as if he's a black hole that sucks up all the good and beauty of bicycle road racing.

[EDS]

Yates came in at 38'51"

Ow.

Ow indeed. When he got pink early on I expected a third week collapse, but after the TT I was much more optimistic of him staying in Pink. Shows what I know.

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[e-RICHIE]

Agreed.

God I hate Froome. It's visceral. He's a skeletal cyborg with all the color removed. It's as if he's a black hole that sucks up all the good and beauty of bicycle road racing.

You win the internet today.

ps

Arrange Disorder

:):);)
:);):p
:mad::mad::)

[Michael Maddox]

God I hate Froome. It's visceral. He's a skeletal cyborg with all the color removed. It's as if he's a black hole that sucks up all the good and beauty of bicycle road racing.

Perhaps the greatest quote of all time. +1 Internets

[John H.]

But if he was good looking and pedaled like Steve Cummings you would sing his praises.

This is pro sports spectacle- Nothing more, nothing less.


God I hate Froome. It's visceral. He's a skeletal cyborg with all the color removed. It's as if he's a black hole that sucks up all the good and beauty of bicycle road racing.

[fignon's barber]

God I hate Froome. It's visceral. He's a skeletal cyborg with all the color removed. It's as if he's a black hole that sucks up all the good and beauty of bicycle road racing.



Don't hate. Life is short. Enjoy the spectacle .

[m4rk540]

But if he was good looking and pedaled like Steve Cummings you would sing his praises.

This is pro sports spectacle- Nothing more, nothing less.

Who is Steve Cummings?

[PQJ]

I am still not a fan but boy can he ride and race.

[eBAUMANN]

professional sports = entertainment

dunno about you guys, but today was pretty damn entertaining.
this entire giro has been pretty damn entertaining.
ANYONE attacking from 80k out, pretty damn entertaining.

if you are blowing steam out of your ears over what he looks like on a bike or the whole inhaler nonsense, you are maybe a bit too personally invested in what, at the end of the day, is entertainment. the day cycling (or ANY sport for that matter) is completely free from PED-talk is the day the MONEY is gone and it is no longer viable as a PROFESSION...and even then, ego will likely still set the limits.

if you are still furious...maybe just go for a ride on your bike instead.

[pdmtong]

Gotta love these distant solo attacks - Cancellara in P-R, Andy Schleck in the TdF, and of course Floyd in the TdF...

[m4rk540]

professional sports = entertainment

dunno about you guys, but today was pretty damn entertaining.
this entire giro has been pretty damn entertaining.
ANYONE attacking from 80k out, pretty damn entertaining.

if you are blowing steam out of your ears over what he looks like on a bike or the whole inhaler nonsense, you are maybe a bit too personally invested in what, at the end of the day, is entertainment. the day cycling (or ANY sport for that matter) is completely free from PED-talk is the day the MONEY is gone and it is no longer viable as a PROFESSION...and even then, ego will likely still set the limits.

if you are still furious...maybe just go for a ride on your bike instead.

You never collected baseball cards, did you?

[PQJ]

Gotta love these distant solo attacks - Cancellara in P-R, Andy Schleck in the TdF, and of course Floyd in the TdF...

Yep. Doper. Doperer. Doperest. And, now, doperestest?

[dieonthishill]

Good for you, in kind.

Were you not stating that since Chris "said it", then it must be OK?


What on earth makes you think I might be surprised at all???
.

No, that's not what I was stating. Read my post. I was just stating that it could be assumed based on his posts, that he was training for this day.

[dieonthishill]

God I hate Froome. It's visceral. He's a skeletal cyborg with all the color removed. It's as if he's a black hole that sucks up all the good and beauty of bicycle road racing.

Maybe go for a ride and cool off?

[ultraman6970]

I think the attack for long was not a surprise, the thing is even if you put lemond/hinault epic long performances they never finished as strong as froome did... remember hinault needed like 5 minutes at some point and the sucker went solo for 150 km, at the end he was barely pedaling, contador did stuff like that aswell and same situation, the last 5 km were pure pain just to get merely 30 seconds at the end and that sucker was able to TT and Climb like the gods (meat or not meat hehehe)

Epic and unbelievable what happened today :D

Brailsford is saying that tomorrow will be rest day? Yeah right... tomorrow will be worse than today. Astana wants the white jersey... TD wants the tittle too... wonder if Froome will win tomorrow tho, after today you cant discount another attack from froome.


Not a single Froome-defender today on this board posted yesterday saying, "I might be wrong, but I think that Froome is going to just absolutely destroy the entire field tomorrow, all of them, from the Finestre all the way to Jafferau. I really believe it."

Not a single one.

So, no, I'm not buying the convenient post-stage, "I knew this could happen, no problem..." stuff. Talk about dumb, frankly.
.

[Lewis Moon]

Froome isn't a bike racer, he's an equation with variables that can be tweaked for "marginal gains".

[eBAUMANN]

Froome isn't a bike racer, he's an equation with variables that can be tweaked for "marginal gains".

dude, thats what professional cycling IS.
some people are just better at it than others.

attacking from 80k out on a mountain stage...thats a huge risk to take, and if that isnt something a "racer" would do, i dunno what is.

You never collected baseball cards, did you?

nope! ha, but i collected plenty of other things, just never really idolized professional athletes enough to care one way or another.
and yes, i DID play sports myself, dabbled in baseball/basketball/football/track/swimming and played varsity soccer up through to college.
didnt ride a bike "seriously" until 2009.

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[m4rk540]

nope! ha, but i collected plenty of other things, just never really idolized professional athletes enough to care one way or another.
and yes, i DID play sports myself, dabbled in baseball/basketball/football/track/swimming and played varsity soccer up through to college.
didnt ride a bike "seriously" until 2009.

I hear ya. But although I subscribe to the Chomsky exegesis on the purpose of the sports spectacle in society, it seems pointless to devote time to viewing these events in a detached pose. It's like caring about anything. Passion is the point.

[dieonthishill]

Froome isn't a bike racer, he's an equation with variables that can be tweaked for "marginal gains".

It cracks me up how much you hate this guy. Your irrational energy on this could be better utilized somewhere else.

I bet every person on this forum wouldn't say anything to his face if given the opportunity.

There are better things to "hate" than a guy who looks at his stem with 110rpm cadence.

[John H.]

He is one of the smoothest pedaling cyclists in the European peloton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2tef-eq7CE


Who is Steve Cummings?

[eBAUMANN]

I hear ya. But although I subscribe to the Chomsky exegesis on the purpose of the sports spectacle in society, it seems pointless to devote time to viewing these events in a detached pose. It's like caring about anything. Passion is the point.

fair enough, i guess my passion lies in seeing a good competition and not much more.
i dont really care who wins or loses, so long as the winner did so in a way that was exciting and worthy.
i was 100% ok with and happy about yates winning the whole shebang, he made some exciting attacks and put in a great TT to defend his lead, he would have been a very worthy winner in my opinion...but, its a grand tour, and sh*t like today can happen. he is young, he will learn, he will be back.

enter the PED factor.

personally, i dont think salbutamol alone is capable of propelling anyone to the success froome has enjoyed.

Common side effects include shakiness, headache, fast heart rate, dizziness, and feeling anxious.[6] Serious side effects may include worsening bronchospasm, irregular heartbeat, and low blood potassium levels.[6] It can be used during pregnancy and breastfeeding, but safety is not entirely clear.[6][9] It is a short-acting β2 adrenergic receptor agonist which works by causing airway smooth muscles to relax.[6]

Seems like a pretty double-edged sword...particularly if taken in the ridiculously high doses he is accused of...particularly if taken during a 3 week long bicycle race.

[FlashUNC]

It cracks me up how much you hate this guy. Your irrational energy on this could be better utilized somewhere else.

I bet every person on this forum wouldn't say anything to his face if given the opportunity.

There are better things to "hate" than a guy who looks at his stem with 110rpm cadence.

Why not? How hard is he going to hit you with those twigs for arms when you call him a doper?

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[holliscx]

Froome took my breath away with his performance today

[FlashUNC]

Froome took my breath away with his performance today

He's got just the thing for that, it'll be courier'd over in a nondescript envelope.

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.

[chiasticon]

even if we take the doping case away... it's still interesting how the best athletes in their sport are so polarizing. ask your average NHL fan what they think of Crosby or Ovechkin. or your average NBA fan what they think of Curry or LeBron. average NFL fan what they think of Brady. etc, etc... depending on which team they're a fan of, if just a casual fan, if a rabid fan, or if something else, you'll get widely different responses.

I personally don't care either way about Froome. but I don't like Sagan. and don't get me started on Van Der Poel versus Van Aert.

:fight:

[ptourkin]

even if we take the doping case away... it's still interesting how the best athletes in their sport are so polarizing. ask your average NHL fan what they think of Crosby or Ovechkin. or your average NBA fan what they think of Curry or LeBron. average NFL fan what they think of Brady. etc, etc... depending on which team they're a fan of, if just a casual fan, if a rabid fan, or if something else, you'll get widely different responses.

I personally don't care either way about Froome. but I don't like Sagan. and don't get me started on Van Der Poel versus Van Aert.

:fight:

How do you feel about short track XC?

[Cloozoe]

So, for Froome to just completely demolish all of the GC contenders (and everyone else on the road today) in the manner he did...if you're asking me to simply ascribe that to smarter, superior, more focused, stage-specific training, compared to the other contenders, especially given Froome's race performance to date, sorry but I'm just not buying it.





Me neither. And it ain't asthma medicine, either.

[galgal]

Me neither. And it ain't asthma medicine, either.

Et tue, PuffPuff?

[choke]

"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

And Froome...yeah, might be the last day I've ever watched a race. If he pulls this off I'll have lost that last bit of faith in cycling.That's pretty much my feelings as well....at least on the men's side. I enjoy women's racing a lot more these days; I'm sure that there's doping going on there as well but at least it's not so obvious.

I get that sports = entertainment....but when something like today happens it's like watching a movie that's where the action is so outlandish that you finally get tired of rolling your eyes at what's going on and just move on to something else.

[weisan]

https://www.pezcyclingnews.com/features/floyd-landis-the-almost-tour-legend/#.WwhVSkgvyM8

[weisan]

.

[Bostic]

That makes me think bad blood transfusion after reading Tyler’s book. How could his body shut down to that effect? Has he fallen like this in the third week of grand tours before?

[JimmyTango]

“I decided two times to wait for Reichenbach because he wanted to ride with me. Maybe that wasn’t a good decision,” Dumoulin said. “On my own, I can descend just as fast as Froome, but Reichenbach descends kind of like an old lady. With hindsight that wasn’t the best idea. But it’s easy to speak afterwards.”

I like Big Tom

[KarlC]

Funny stuff .......


George Bennet’s reaction, make sure the sound is on: https://twitter.com/LottoJumbo_road/status/1000105610489286662

.

https://i.imgur.com/jELfIH4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EPKuQQF.jpg

.

[StephenCL]

I am livid about today. I think we were witnessing one of the best Giro’s in years before today’s farsical nonsense.

What a waste....Froomey pulls a Landis and destroys the 2018 Giro. That’s how the history books will read.

[StephenCL]

I’m sorry to go on... but I actually had a nasty pit in my stomach when I read about what had happened. And as much as I have loved Team Sky and Bradley over the years, I really hope someone has the balls to step up and squeal like a pig.

Stephen

[pasadena]

That makes me think bad blood transfusion after reading Tyler’s book. How could his body shut down to that effect? Has he fallen like this in the third week of grand tours before?

Yates lost time on Finestre. That is quite a long time until the finish.
He imploded the rest of the 80km's and 38min isn't surprising at that point.

Once you loose the jersey that far away, time doesnt matter.
Surviving and recovering becomes the goal.

[ultraman6970]

Now yates needs to pull up a landis too :)

[pdmtong]

Gotta love these distant solo attacks - Cancellara in P-R, Andy Schleck in the TdF, and of course Floyd in the TdF...

Yep. Doper. Doperer. Doperest. And, now, doperestest?

was I that transparent?

[Hellgate]

Oh ye of little faith...

[ntb1001]

I absolutely do not like Froome, but regardless of any doping or not....this was exciting and a great stage.

Too bad a month from now we’ll probably get a positive test result from today wiping out the Giro win.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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[Climb01742]

I'd say George Bennet is an expert witness. Love his take. Landis, indeed.

[MattTuck]

This week seems like a ton of fun to watch the stages. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you view it) life has gotten in the way and I haven't been able to follow live.

Still cheering for Dumoulin. Will be very interesting to see if Froome pops again on his sample today. You know, selective kidney malfunction, or whatever the excuse du jour is.

[FlashUNC]

That makes me think bad blood transfusion after reading Tyler’s book. How could his body shut down to that effect? Has he fallen like this in the third week of grand tours before?

For a non pharmacoloical answer, he seemed to be digging pretty deep the last couple days to hold off Tom D, and admitted as much he was tired. I wouldn't be shocked if after seeing Froome go, the wheels just came off mentally as well as physically.

[enr1co]

Funny how the eurosport announcer kept saying how the tifosi love aggressive racers and then hear all the whistling and boos as Fraud-oome crossed the finish line.

[MattTuck]

Also, a nice little piece on Gino Bartali. Nice to keep things in perspective.

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/05/25/gino-bartali-world-war-ii

[weisan]

Too much misguided negative energy swirling around.

Completely over-blown.

We have a tendency to apply excessive force in the wrong situation.

Instead of going after the really bad guys, we go after the low-hanging, easy targets.

For example, people like Lance Armstrong, Dr. Ferrari, Thomas Weisel...just to name a few. Leopards can't change their spots.

If you have so much pent-up energy, go after these guys.

They are still laughing all the way to the bank...till this day.

They are mocking us. Laughing at you.

[galgal]

Too much misguided negative energy swirling around.

Completely over-blown.

We have a tendency to apply excessive force in the wrong situation.

Instead of going after the really bad guys, we go after the low-hanging, easy targets.

For example, people like Lance Armstrong, Dr. Ferrari, Thomas Weisel...just to name a few. Leopards can't change their spots.

If you have so much pent-up energy, go after these guys.

They are still laughing all the way to the bank...till this day.

They are mocking us. Laughing at you.

With all due respect, not sure I follow. If you mean, that too much misspent energy on a sporting event that would be best used elsewhere, I would agree, as I imagine would probably everyone. We have witnessed in recent years the US Congress spend a lot of energy on steroids in baseball while there was a war the country was involved in that they should have had maybe a few questions or reservations about?
On the other hand, on a cycling site, why should one not ask questions or express outrage at a let's say "debatable" occurrence involving a team and a rider that already had plenty to answer for.
As for "they" laughing on the way to the bank, well that is an issue beyond this thread I think. But this is a race thread for a race that was pretty great and then what transpired beggars belief.

[Black Dog]

Too much misguided negative energy swirling around.

Completely over-blown.

We have a tendency to apply excessive force in the wrong situation.

Instead of going after the really bad guys, we go after the low-hanging, easy targets.

For example, people like Lance Armstrong, Dr. Ferrari, Thomas Weisel...just to name a few. Leopards can't change their spots.

If you have so much pent-up energy, go after these guys.

They are still laughing all the way to the bank...till this day.

They are mocking us. Laughing at you.

Didn't Froome get paid 2 million Euros to ride the Giro? There’s some money.

[rain dogs]

...

[ultraman6970]

yes , that...

[Michael Maddox]

An interesting implication that perhaps Froome should consider the good of the sport rather than his own self interest...when has THAT ever happened?

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/only-love-can-break-your-heart-a-lamentation-on-chris-froome

[Avispa]

....when has THAT ever happened?



https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/only-love-can-break-your-heart-a-lamentation-on-chris-froome



No kidding.... not Lemond, not Lance, and never ever with Sky!

[macaroon]

An interesting implication that perhaps Froome should consider the good of the sport rather than his own self interest...when has THAT ever happened?

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/only-love-can-break-your-heart-a-lamentation-on-chris-froome

What a load of ****e that article is.

Chris Froome is an easy target; he rides a bike funny, rides the Sky train, generally makes for boring racing, blah blah blah, etc. etc. It seems to have become the "cool" thing amongst the "proper" cycling fans to mock him. Well, he showed you all up yesterday!

[bobswire]

Congrats to Froome, he made it an exciting Giro.

[paredown]

Congrats to Froome, he made it an exciting Giro.

Yes.

I was suspending disbelief about yesterday's performance until today.

Dumoulin was knackered (amazing ride--even tried to shake things up at the bottom of the last climb), Pinault went off the back like someone threw an anchor off his bike and was so far in the pain cave that he was dry heaving while staying on his bike, and the one person who looked unmarked by yesterday's exertions was Chris Froome.

I'm sorry--put me in the disbeliever's camp.

[jlwdm]

Froome can't win on this Forum. In the tour Sky is criticized for just grinding it out with his team. Other riders are criticized for not attacking earlier in climbing stages. Froome attacks from way out and now he is criticized.

Yates was gapped before Finestre. As a few forum members suggested two days ago Yates seemed to be tiring. There is also the mental aspect of winning a tour. The pressure from the Giro is not like the Tour, but still it is heavy. Lots of interviews (changing your routine), pressure of leading, pressure to win for your team and a whole new role in the peloton. It is much easier to sit in a race and let the leading team do all the work. The mental part of a grand tour is right up there with the physical part.

Froome has shown at times he can be a great descender and many of the other riders at the top of GC were not as good on the descent. The other riders never worked together. And many of the other riders are good climbers but not really great.

I appreciate his attack just like his downhill attack in the Tour and his attack on the flat with Sagan and two others.

Jeff

[FlashUNC]

It's truly amazing how a mid pack Continental rider in Africa can, through overcoming a mysterious African virus, asthma and kidney failure with the help of marginal gains, become a Coppi-esque Grand Tour rider. How you go from finishing 3 minutes behind Lars Boom at the U23 world time trial championships to now one of the greatest against the clock is surely down to your meticulous preparation.

Or it's doping. Yeah, a lot of doping.

[bobswire]

Yes.

I was suspending disbelief about yesterday's performance until today.

Dumoulin was knackered (amazing ride--even tried to shake things up at the bottom of the last climb), Pinault went off the back like someone threw an anchor off his bike and was so far in the pain cave that he was dry heaving while staying on his bike, and the one person who looked unmarked by yesterday's exertions was Chris Froome.

I'm sorry--put me in the disbeliever's camp.

Did I ask if you are a believer, all I said is I was entertained.
I'm just a spectator, the rest is fodder for the media and those who wish to engage in it.

[Big Dan]

same as it ever was...

[John H.]

But you could also apply your same storyline and time line to grand champions.

Guys like Nibali, Cunego, etc.. have been on the s**t since they were 15.

Everyone is doing the same things to win.


It's truly amazing how a mid pack Continental rider in Africa can, through overcoming a mysterious African virus, asthma and kidney failure with the help of marginal gains, become a Coppi-esque Grand Tour rider. How you go from finishing 3 minutes behind Lars Boom at the U23 world time trial championships to now one of the greatest against the clock is surely down to your meticulous preparation.

Or it's doping. Yeah, a lot of doping.

[paredown]

Did I ask if you are a believer, all I said is I was entertained.
I'm just a spectator, the rest is fodder for the media and those who wish to engage in it.
Apologies--I was not directing the comment at you, just musing out loud. I too found it entertaining.

[FlashUNC]

But you could also apply your same storyline and time line to grand champions.

Guys like Nibali, Cunego, etc.. have been on the s**t since they were 15.

Everyone is doing the same things to win.

Not really. Nibali was 3rd at the U23 World TT championships in 2002 and 2004. He won GP Ouest at 21. He was national junior road race champ in Italy, which is never a small feat.

He showed every sign very early on in his career that he was going to be an exceedingly good bike racer. Froome showed none of that until he left Barloworld for Sky.

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[enr1co]

Not really. Nibali was 3rd at the U23 World TT championships in 2002 and 2004. He won GP Ouest at 21. He was national junior road race champ in Italy, which is never a small feat.

He showed every sign very early on in his career that he was going to be an exceedingly good bike racer. Froome showed none of that until he left Barloworld for Sky.

Leaked photos! First stop for pack fodder Froome after leaving Barloworld... the Sky transformation lab ;)

[weisan]

not trying to defend anybody but this premise of "prior indication of talent at early age" can be over-reached. I have personally known many champions or successful athletes who showed absolutely no sign of talent at an earlier age but all of sudden burst into the scenes. We call them "late bloomers" and hard work.

don't need to argue...just a small observation.

[John H.]

Froome was 2nd in the Vuelta in 2011- so hardly a Johnny come lately.

But Froome, Nibali, Contador, etc. have been on the program for a long time-
Italian guys probably longer than most-
New guys will just take over when these guys go away-
Wout Poels will become the next Sky grand tour winner.

If you need the sport to be clean for you to enjoy it- You better find a new sport to follow.


Not really. Nibali was 3rd at the U23 World TT championships in 2002 and 2004. He won GP Ouest at 21. He was national junior road race champ in Italy, which is never a small feat.

He showed every sign very early on in his career that he was going to be an exceedingly good bike racer. Froome showed none of that until he left Barloworld for Sky.

[FlashUNC]

Froome was 2nd in the Vuelta in 2011- so hardly a Johnny come lately.

But Froome, Nibali, Contador, etc. have been on the program for a long time-
Italian guys probably longer than most-
New guys will just take over when these guys go away-
Wout Poels will become the next Sky grand tour winner.

If you need the sport to be clean for you to enjoy it- You better find a new sport to follow.

2nd at the Vuelta...for Team Sky. Not two years prior he was posting his best career result to that point, being on the podium (not even winning) a minor South African stage race.

He goes to Sky and it's like a switch is flipped. Nobody goes from donkey to race horse like that seemingly over night. He was an anonymous rider in even minor European races and decent, but no dominating, performances in far less competitive African races.

This is the guy who's now the best Grand Tour rider of his era? There's a bridge to Manhattan I have to sell too if we're buying this.

[John H.]

If a rider is not an international level rider as a junior- that is how they come up. Lower level teams.
Look at guys like Michael Woods, Sven Tuft, etc..
These guys paid their dues on domestic teams too. Doesn't make them donkeys-

The switch that you talk about took many years-

I do agree with you that a team like Sky grows tour champions- But there has to be some talent to work with.
Success in cycling has many components.
Talent is only one of them.
Drive, focus, motivation, luck, crash avoidance, ability to assimilate huge training and racing loads without injury or illness...
Also drug use. But more than that- how one responds to PED's. Some are terrific responders, some are not.

And if we remove Froome from the equation- Is their a clean successor? Hardly-

Do you think 3 stage wins, a great prologue and a bunch of days in yellow by Simon Yates was clean?
Why did he crack? Likely couldn't risk taking the final blood bag.


2nd at the Vuelta...for Team Sky. Not two years prior he was posting his best career result to that point, being on the podium (not even winning) a minor South African stage race.

He goes to Sky and it's like a switch is flipped. Nobody goes from donkey to race horse like that seemingly over night. He was an anonymous rider in even minor European races and decent, but no dominating, performances in far less competitive African races.

This is the guy who's now the best Grand Tour rider of his era? There's a bridge to Manhattan I have to sell too if we're buying this.

[Drmojo]

If a rider is not an international level rider as a junior- that is how they come up. Lower level teams.
Look at guys like Michael Woods, Sven Tuft, etc..
These guys paid their dues on domestic teams too. Doesn't make them donkeys-

The switch that you talk about took many years-

I do agree with you that a team like Sky grows tour champions- But there has to be some talent to work with.
Success in cycling has many components.
Talent is only one of them.
Drive, focus, motivation, luck, crash avoidance, ability to assimilate huge training and racing loads without injury or illness...
Also drug use. But more than that- how one responds to PED's. Some are terrific responders, some are not.

And if we remove Froome from the equation- Is their a clean successor? Hardly-

Do you think 3 stage wins, a great prologue and a bunch of days in yellow by Simon Yates was clean?
Why did he crack? Likely couldn't risk taking the final blood bag.

Lance and Greg were both world class athletes as teenagers.
Both won World’s int their early 20’s
Froome had bilharzia and new style Sky TUE astma science with much less raw talent
IMO of course
plus the Italians got their money’s worth out of Zoom zoom

[Cloozoe]

I think Floyd Froome has a nice ring to it.

[soulspinner]

how do you let Froome stay away 80km????

[oldpotatoe]

how do you let Froome stay away 80km????

ooopps.

[FlashUNC]

If a rider is not an international level rider as a junior- that is how they come up. Lower level teams.
Look at guys like Michael Woods, Sven Tuft, etc..
These guys paid their dues on domestic teams too. Doesn't make them donkeys-

The switch that you talk about took many years-

I do agree with you that a team like Sky grows tour champions- But there has to be some talent to work with.
Success in cycling has many components.
Talent is only one of them.
Drive, focus, motivation, luck, crash avoidance, ability to assimilate huge training and racing loads without injury or illness...
Also drug use. But more than that- how one responds to PED's. Some are terrific responders, some are not.

And if we remove Froome from the equation- Is their a clean successor? Hardly-

Do you think 3 stage wins, a great prologue and a bunch of days in yellow by Simon Yates was clean?
Why did he crack? Likely couldn't risk taking the final blood bag.

Sven Tuft isn't currently the reigning winner for every Grand Tour on the calendar.

And your argument is Froome's doping is better than everyone else's doping? That's twisted.

[John H.]

Is your argument that all the guys who are behind Froome are behind him because they are clean?
Yes- his doping program is well developed. Developed for max benefit without testing positive (D'oh).
Also- he is a terrific responder. Maybe more than most. The same was true for Armstrong.

You also said that you felt like Froome was a "donkey who became a race horse"?
Don't you think a team like Sky does extensive testing to know what they are getting?
I agree that he may not be the best of the best in terms of natural talent- But I am sure that Sky runs extensive testing.
Basically they want to know what they are getting.
Teams don't want to sign guys if there power numbers are coming from doping- Two reasons for that.
1.) Possibility of positive tests. Look at how Horner couldn't find a top contract after a grand tour victory.
2.) If they guy is already doping, he is likely closer to his ceiling than a clean or relatively clean rider.

I would say that they tested Froome before they signed him- And came to the conclusion that he holds really good power, has not yet used a really good medical program, and has relatively high body fat (compared to where he could take it).
So they signed him and got about molding the perfect beast.

And Barloworld not being a good team to come from?
Past Riders:
Chris Froome
Daryl Impey
Robert Hunter
Geriant Thomas
Mauricio Soler
Steve Cummings

Not exactly donkeys either-





Sven Tuft isn't currently the reigning winner for every Grand Tour on the calendar.

And your argument is Froome's doping is better than everyone else's doping? That's twisted.

[jlwdm]

how do you let Froome stay away 80km????


Sky weakened the field. He is a better climber than the other riders left. He is a better descender than the other riders left. And the riders left did not want to work together. They made it easier for Froome.

On the descents he was in more aero positions, taking better lines and taking more risks. He looked like he wanted to win the race and the others looked like they were protecting their positions - poorly.

Jeff

[dieonthishill]

sky weakened the field. He is a better climber than the other riders left. He is a better descender than the other riders left. And the riders left did not want to work together. They made it easier for froome.

On the descents he was in more aero positions, taking better lines and taking more risks. He looked like he wanted to win the race and the others looked like they were protecting their positions - poorly.

Jeff

+1

[weisan]

http://alicehui.com/bike/giro2018/giro.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/giro2018/giro2.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/giro2018/giro3.jpg

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[ultraman6970]

What looks weird to me is that some riders left sky for other teams and none of them have even talked about what's the secret marginal gains sky pulls up with the riders.

[cadence90]

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[bobswire]

Sky weakened the field. He is a better climber than the other riders left. He is a better descender than the other riders left. And the riders left did not want to work together. They made it easier for Froome.

On the descents he was in more aero positions, taking better lines and taking more risks. He looked like he wanted to win the race and the others looked like they were protecting their positions - poorly.

Jeff

That is exactly how he won that day, plus the fact no one really wanted to challenge his initial break with 80km to go probably thinking it was a ruse. Froome's eyes were glued to his PM for the most part and knows his limits, more than most. I began appreciating Froome as racer and rider ever since he joined forces with Sagan on a stage in the 2016 TDF, Sagan won that stage (http://www.velonews.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/sagan-on-attack-with-froome-we-are-artists_414544) but Froome took time from his challengers that day. Also in that same TDF Froome won a stage by taking a daring downhill attack (https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2016/chris-roome-in-yellow-after-daring-downhill-attack-to-win-stage-8_sto5680587/story.shtml). I don't understand why he's belittled for his style and disliked so much beyond the TUE suspicions.

[jlwdm]

...


Got it.

.

We all have got what you think - over 15 negative Froome posts in this thread seems pretty clear. I don't have to agree with you though.

Jeff

[SleepyCyclist]

It was a really exciting race! Loved it.

This was an interesting watch:
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/990908893730656257

Some interesting analysis of the key stage:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dekker-the-problem-with-froome-and-team-sky-is-a-lack-of-transparency/

As many have pointed out, seems the audacity of the attack, risks on the descent, lack of teamwork among the chasers were the keys. The times of the actual climbs were similar.

[ultraman6970]

Interesting what decker says, thats how I feel too. You read or hear Sky they are saying nothing.

Looks like we will never know.

Good racing tho.

[Cloozoe]

I've thought this through and come out happy.

Everyone dopes, so it's a level playing field. Nobody's got a bitch coming;
"What was I supposed to do - call him for cheating better than me...?"
~Doyle Lonnegan

Everyone dopes, but I don't since nobody's paying me, so by some small bit the vast gulf between how fast they are and how fast I am has narrowed.

All good!

[FlashUNC]

Is your argument that all the guys who are behind Froome are behind him because they are clean?
Yes- his doping program is well developed. Developed for max benefit without testing positive (D'oh).
Also- he is a terrific responder. Maybe more than most. The same was true for Armstrong.

You also said that you felt like Froome was a "donkey who became a race horse"?
Don't you think a team like Sky does extensive testing to know what they are getting?
I agree that he may not be the best of the best in terms of natural talent- But I am sure that Sky runs extensive testing.
Basically they want to know what they are getting.
Teams don't want to sign guys if there power numbers are coming from doping- Two reasons for that.
1.) Possibility of positive tests. Look at how Horner couldn't find a top contract after a grand tour victory.
2.) If they guy is already doping, he is likely closer to his ceiling than a clean or relatively clean rider.

I would say that they tested Froome before they signed him- And came to the conclusion that he holds really good power, has not yet used a really good medical program, and has relatively high body fat (compared to where he could take it).
So they signed him and got about molding the perfect beast.

And Barloworld not being a good team to come from?
Past Riders:
Chris Froome
Daryl Impey
Robert Hunter
Geriant Thomas
Mauricio Soler
Steve Cummings

Not exactly donkeys either-

I never said the guys behind him are clean. Nor was Barloworld a garbage team. But he was clearly second tier within Barloworld. Pack fodder in Grand Tours.

One key from Tyler Hamilton's book is that guys respond to dope differently. He never saw much benefit given his natural body chemistry, but others saw enormous gains.

None of it makes a bit of sense. Guy hasn't had a bad day in years of Grand Tours. Then does this 80k insanity. Do I need to bring up Le Tour with the attack against Quintana that made Nairo look like he was sitting still?

Believe what you want. All I ask is he not make his doping program so obvious.

[dieonthishill]

That is exactly how he won that day, plus the fact no one really wanted to challenge his initial break with 80km to go probably thinking it was a ruse. Froome's eyes were glued to his PM for the most part and knows his limits, more than most. I began appreciating Froome as racer and rider ever since he joined forces with Sagan on a stage in the 2016 TDF, Sagan won that stage (http://www.velonews.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/sagan-on-attack-with-froome-we-are-artists_414544) but Froome took time from his challengers that day. Also in that same TDF Froome won a stage by taking a daring downhill attack (https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2016/chris-roome-in-yellow-after-daring-downhill-attack-to-win-stage-8_sto5680587/story.shtml). I don't understand why he's belittled for his style and disliked so much beyond the TUE suspicions.

This. Exactly.

He has done some stuff very few GC riders are willing to risk. It's awesome to watch and gives some excitement. It's annoying people are so focused on him putting his head down with boney elbows. Who cares? Put your negative energy elsewhere.

[weisan]

Believe what you want. All I ask is he not make his doping program so obvious.

wait....are you saying that some here believe that he is clean?

how is it possible to have this level of disconnect even when things are clearly spelled out in the posts?

do we only hear what we want to hear, and read what we want to read or not read at all before we post a response?

I am actually done. This is my last post on this. I am already way past my normal post count (>0) on stuff like this. I have pretended to care more than I usually do.

[FlashUNC]

wait....are you saying that some here believe that he is clean?

how is it possible to have this level of disconnect even when things are clearly spelled out in the posts?

do we only hear what we want to hear, and read what we want to read or not read at all before we post a response?

I am actually done. This is my last post on this. I am already way past my normal post count (>0) on stuff like this. I have pretended to care more than I usually do.

https://media.giphy.com/media/2ept7eRuyq98s/giphy.gif

[rustychisel]

Froome can't win on this Forum. In the tour Sky is criticized for just grinding it out with his team. Other riders are criticized for not attacking earlier in climbing stages. Froome attacks from way out and now he is criticized.

et al

I think this is true, but there may be reasons other than canvassed by you [not that I get to see stuff on Fox because I will not pay those people for a moment of their cash-grabbing].

Anyhoo, this forum is a pretty good barometer and comprises some pretty cluey people. Even though we're all internet warriors and completely full of hot air, as a sample audience more people on here understand the subtleties, the rigours, and the balls-out effort required to pull something like this off.

I maintain I'd take the collective wisdom and opinion of this forum over and above any other, including Phil & Paul, The White House Press spokesperson and all the comments posted on cyclingnews.com.

Additionally, being of a certain age and having seen it all before allows you to parse the evidence and be a little more circumspect in your beliefs. Long will I recall seeing Riccardo Ricco and his little mate rock 'n roll away from the peloton some years ago, and I turned to my partner there and then: "Pfffft. He's gone. Busted."

[Lionel]

Believe what you want. All I ask is he not make his doping program so obvious.

How can this not be obvious ? If you look at 2 pictures of Froome before and after Sky.... Same program that got Wiggins, a track racer, win the TdF in the mountains.

[bobswire]

It's entertainment, no more no less. Cycling fans are a funny breed, what other sport outside of cycling do fans spend the energy dissecting their favorite athletes suspicious PED use, basketball, football, baseball, tennis, boxing?
Most leave that to the authorities, if the athlete gets caught, great, if not life goes on but they don't fret over it like fans of cycling. I'm not defending Froome nor am I a believer that he doesn't use Peds, frankly, I could give a damn like I do with other sports. If they get caught doping, that's their shame not mine. I look at cycling or other sports as a do a good movie, concert, etc.
I save my angst for politicians who I may have voted for whose actions actually can affect my life.
The only cycling creed I care about or have control over is my own, I just don't wear it on my sleeve nor preach it to others.

[FlashUNC]

How can this not be obvious ? If you look at 2 pictures of Froome before and after Sky.... Same program that got Wiggins, a track racer, win the TdF in the mountains.

I dunno man. Some people here think it's down to tactical savvy and grit. Not the team jammed up in a pretty damning anti-dkping investigation.

[ultraman6970]

You have a big difference tho... Wiggo was world champion and national champion for a very long time, I suspect that he moved to road just because of the money, the reason I never understood was why he just quit road forever after the tour and he never tried another one and those are the stories we wont know ever.

The other one I believe that came out of nowhere was oscar freire, from what i know he was not liked too much because he took everything out of many riders winning a national title pretty much in his 1st season as amateur and then as professional his 1st year he went in the spaniard team just to fill up the team, and he went and won the world champion that year. Honestly seen guys like that, 1st day in a race and the dude wins like nothing, seen them. So I'm open to those things too.

But in the case of Freire the dude won 3 WC and a bunch of other stuff, so even if he was into something is hard to tell because his performances are evenly distributed, dude went from unpolished race horse to race horse all his life.

So if you think into froome, I'm open to get better with the years type of riders because is natural but sickness or not, dude skyrocketed like nobody else did (with sagan we enjoyed his progression during the years) ever, add the stories and stuff that sure sky have been little to no transparent (call it covering if you want) for the last 5 years or more and then what is the only thing remaining? bitter sweet taste.

The other thing is that for some reason sky is always preference treatment, a few years back froome should have ended his vuelta alone, then running man w/o the bike, then drinks in forbidden zones and several more....then you have wiggo's stuff bags... dunno, wonder if Froome would repeat performances in another teams that are more transparent. We wont know, doubt he will go out of sky, probably he will retire 1st, which is the smart thing to do.


How can this not be obvious ? If you look at 2 pictures of Froome before and after Sky.... Same program that got Wiggins, a track racer, win the TdF in the mountains.

[fignon's barber]

It's entertainment, no more no less. Cycling fans are a funny breed, what other sport outside of cycling do fans spend the energy dissecting their favorite athletes suspicious PED use, basketball, football, baseball, tennis, boxing?
Most leave that to the authorities, if the athlete gets caught, great, if not life goes on but they don't fret over it like fans of cycling. I'm not defending Froome nor am I a believer that he doesn't use Peds, frankly, I could give a damn like I do with other sports. If they get caught doping, that's their shame not mine. I look at cycling or other sports as a do a good movie, concert, etc.
I save my angst for politicians who I may have voted for whose actions actually can affect my life.
The only cycling creed I care about or have control over is my own, I just don't wear it on my sleeve nor preach it to others.



Exactly. I think a great attribute in life is to be able to find good stuff in things that aren't so perfect. helps you sleep better too. I feel sorry for those who can't extract the good things from this Giro.

[RobJ]

It's entertainment, no more no less. Cycling fans are a funny breed, what other sport outside of cycling do fans spend the energy dissecting their favorite athletes suspicious PED use, basketball, football, baseball, tennis, boxing?
Most leave that to the authorities, if the athlete gets caught, great, if not life goes on but they don't fret over it like fans of cycling. I'm not defending Froome nor am I a believer that he doesn't use Peds, frankly, I could give a damn like I do with other sports. If they get caught doping, that's their shame not mine. I look at cycling or other sports as a do a good movie, concert, etc.
I save my angst for politicians who I may have voted for whose actions actually can affect my life.
The only cycling creed I care about or have control over is my own, I just don't wear it on my sleeve nor preach it to others.

Well put and I totally agree with your comments and those from Flash about the rise of the relative mid-pack performance of Froome to multi-Grand Tour champion. The only difference though between the other pro sports and fans willingness to let the drugs go is those are primarily team sports where the drug use helps you get stronger, recover faster etc. but you are still reliant on your team generally for the outcome of the game. Cycling the PED's directly enhance your performance, stamina etc. which directly affects the outcome of the race and the person's individual performance. Heck the NFL has convicted murderers running around on the field and no one seems to bat an eye.

[Lionel]

You have a big difference tho... Wiggo was world champion and national champion for a very long time, I suspect that he moved to road just because of the money, the reason I never understood was why he just quit road forever after the tour and he never tried another one and those are the stories we wont know ever.

The other one I believe that came out of nowhere was oscar freire, from what i know he was not liked too much because he took everything out of many riders winning a national title pretty much in his 1st season as amateur and then as professional his 1st year he went in the spaniard team just to fill up the team, and he went and won the world champion that year. Honestly seen guys like that, 1st day in a race and the dude wins like nothing, seen them. So I'm open to those things too.

But in the case of Freire the dude won 3 WC and a bunch of other stuff, so even if he was into something is hard to tell because his performances are evenly distributed, dude went from unpolished race horse to race horse all his life.

So if you think into froome, I'm open to get better with the years type of riders because is natural but sickness or not, dude skyrocketed like nobody else did (with sagan we enjoyed his progression during the years) ever, add the stories and stuff that sure sky have been little to no transparent (call it covering if you want) for the last 5 years or more and then what is the only thing remaining? bitter sweet taste.

The other thing is that for some reason sky is always preference treatment, a few years back froome should have ended his vuelta alone, then running man w/o the bike, then drinks in forbidden zones and several more....then you have wiggo's stuff bags... dunno, wonder if Froome would repeat performances in another teams that are more transparent. We wont know, doubt he will go out of sky, probably he will retire 1st, which is the smart thing to do.

Sky is a fraud. Period.

Here is Wiggo this week.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeOyzdsUQAAF0Ke.jpg

[ultraman6970]

Packed more than a few pounds eh? Now he looks like a tracker :P

[Michael Maddox]

It's entertainment, no more no less. Cycling fans are a funny breed, what other sport outside of cycling do fans spend the energy dissecting their favorite athletes suspicious PED use, basketball, football, baseball, tennis, boxing?
Most leave that to the authorities, if the athlete gets caught, great, if not life goes on but they don't fret over it like fans of cycling. I'm not defending Froome nor am I a believer that he doesn't use Peds, frankly, I could give a damn like I do with other sports. If they get caught doping, that's their shame not mine. I look at cycling or other sports as a do a good movie, concert, etc.
I save my angst for politicians who I may have voted for whose actions actually can affect my life.
The only cycling creed I care about or have control over is my own, I just don't wear it on my sleeve nor preach it to others.

I will argue that cycling fans DO have a personal connection to the sport. Endurance sports, and cycling in particular, allow the fan to use the same equipment as the professional, in the same arena of competition, testing themselves DIRECTLY against the challenges that the professional faces. We ride the same bikes, wear the same clothes, and ride the same roads. We participate in the sport nearly identically to the manner the professionals do. So, when faced with the possibility that someone is cheating, we react viscerally...because they're cheating in OUR sport, in OUR arena. I will never watch, much less PLAY, in a Super Bowl, a World Series, or a World Cup, but I WILL climb Zoncolan. And I don't want the leader-board tainted by some putz who has a full-time medical support staff pumping him full of juice, despite my inability to actually challenge his time.

[ERK55]

Sky is a fraud. Period.

Here is Wiggo this week.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeOyzdsUQAAF0Ke.jpg

Look at the neck/shoulders/arms on this dude.
He’s huge. Wonder what the weight difference is before->after?

[Rada]

It's entertainment, no more no less. Cycling fans are a funny breed, what other sport outside of cycling do fans spend the energy dissecting their favorite athletes suspicious PED use, basketball, football, baseball, tennis, boxing?
Most leave that to the authorities, if the athlete gets caught, great, if not life goes on but they don't fret over it like fans of cycling. I'm not defending Froome nor am I a believer that he doesn't use Peds, frankly, I could give a damn like I do with other sports. If they get caught doping, that's their shame not mine. I look at cycling or other sports as a do a good movie, concert, etc.
I save my angst for politicians who I may have voted for whose actions actually can affect my life.
The only cycling creed I care about or have control over is my own, I just don't wear it on my sleeve nor preach it to others.

So you are ok with young men and women doping themselves with god knows what and how it will affect them later in their lives just so you can enjoy some entertainment. Bravo sir, bravo.

[bobswire]

So you are ok with young men and women doping themselves with god knows what and how it will affect them later in their lives just so you can enjoy some entertainment. Bravo sir, bravo.

Deleted by request of management.

[ultraman6970]

Chill guys...

[enr1co]

Sky is a fraud. Period.

Here is Wiggo this week.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeOyzdsUQAAF0Ke.jpg

Wow, guess he's on a different program for rowing ambitions :eek:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DADEyGpXYAEogst.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DORA1zKXcAAy9XD.jpg

[ultraman6970]

Doesnt look he is doing super good at it either. I think he needs to ask Brailsford for a plan to get marginal gains in Rowing now :P

[Rada]

Where in my statement about cycling did you come up with your moral judgment of me? However I may feel about how they live their lives has no bearing on how they wish to live them, I was just stating how I feel about the sport in general and how it relates to my life. You know little of my life you condescending asshole. Why don't you volunteer to be a guidance counselor for wayward Ped users and make something out of your life if you feel so strongly instead of opining away on the internet. I have had two family members die from substance abuse, so I don't need you preaching to me.

It's all about you Bob.

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[Bruce K]

Name calling is the fastest way to a time out.

You might want to re-think that post

BK

[livingminimal]

I just want to know where the **** are brads socks.

[Jaybee]

He’s a rower now. Rowers don’t wear socks.

[Lionel]

Is that a rowers bib too ?

[livingminimal]

that rowing machine has a remarkable resemblance to a bike.

[thegunner]

He’s a rower now. Rowers don’t wear socks.

listen, ain't nobody want to deal with soggy ass socks in a boat okay?

[rwsaunders]

If I were Wiggo, considering his checkered TUE past, I'm not sure that I'd be wearing a Motorola jersey. I would go all out and wear a USPS jersey.

[Lionel]

If I were Wiggo, considering his checkered TUE past, I'm not sure that I'd be wearing a Motorola jersey. I would go all out and wear a USPS jersey.

He probably could not find one in his size

[oldpotatoe]

I will argue that cycling fans DO have a personal connection to the sport. Endurance sports, and cycling in particular, allow the fan to use the same equipment as the professional, in the same arena of competition, testing themselves DIRECTLY against the challenges that the professional faces. We ride the same bikes, wear the same clothes, and ride the same roads. We participate in the sport nearly identically to the manner the professionals do. So, when faced with the possibility that someone is cheating, we react viscerally...because they're cheating in OUR sport, in OUR arena. I will never watch, much less PLAY, in a Super Bowl, a World Series, or a World Cup, but I WILL climb Zoncolan. And I don't want the leader-board tainted by some putz who has a full-time medical support staff pumping him full of juice, despite my inability to actually challenge his time.

Talk about PUTZ's..from Icarus, the movie.

[livingminimal]

Talk about PUTZ's..from Icarus, the movie.

There's a super fine line it seems between diehard fans of the sport who also ride bikes as their primary source of exercise/hobby/etc and middle-aged men fooling themselves into thinking they have some kind of exceptional talent because they regularly lead their Saturday clubby ride up the Cat 2 climb on their toughest route. Its just about the most pathetic of the pathetic, IMO.

Then there's the same guys who have that perspective and dope themselves up to win Masters races. That's truly the most pathetic.

Somewhere in GD there is a thread about how two fit guys who clearly ride a lot went out and rode with Sky and got a picture with Bernal. The picture says a bazillion words. Bernal is only 9ish kilos lighter than either of them, yet he has the ability to distribute oxygen around in his body in a way that no other mortal can imagine. You could lose the weight, you could dope to the gills, but youll never be fast like him. Or like anyone on the WT. Or like anyone that is Pro-Conti. Or like anyone that is Conti. Or like people that legitimately have physiological talent but dont even race because they find its a sick ego game. I'm soapboxing a bit about adults on bicycles playing dressup, but what Icarus showed me was more about the pathetic nature of adult men that struggle with grasping reality more than about the doping industrial complex, which we all knew existed, while we putter away our miles as people paying to do so...

[dieonthishill]

It says a lot about the mentality of the people on the negative-side when they start commenting on the weight of a cyclist post-retirement. Let alone comment on anyone's weight on an online forum.

Don't you think he is tired of starving himself for Grand Tours?

[Jaybee]

It says a lot about the mentality of the people on the negative-side when they start commenting on the weight of a cyclist post-retirement. Let alone comment on anyone's weight on an online forum.

Don't you think he is tired of starving himself for Grand Tours?

Nobody is weight-shaming Brad Wiggins. If anything, the dude looks about as whole-body fit as you could ever expect a late-30s human to be.

The point is that somehow Sky has found a way to take a track pursuit specialist and time trialist/roleur, chop 20-25 pounds of mass off them with no appreciable loss of power so they are now dropping 120lb. Basque guys off the back on GT climbs. It's... exceptional.

I don't think it makes someone crazy or hate-filled or even unreasonable to wonder where and how Sky gets the results it gets. It's pro cycling - everyone is under suspicion.

[fignon's barber]

I liked this thread a lot better when it was about the Giro.

[enr1co]

I’m the last person to be fat shaming anyone with my Barney Rubble physique ;)

[rousseau]

Here is Wiggo this week.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeOyzdsUQAAF0Ke.jpg

Can you still be a mod when you look like that? Looks like his days hanging with the Modfather are long gone.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/12/article-0-16E2880E000005DC-536_306x430.jpg

[JimmyTango]

Sky is a fraud. Period.

Here is Wiggo this week.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeOyzdsUQAAF0Ke.jpg

The fat-ass is whatever... but the socks:eek::no:

[Avispa]

I will argue that cycling fans DO have a personal connection to the sport. Endurance sports, and cycling in particular, allow the fan to use the same equipment as the professional, in the same arena of competition, testing themselves DIRECTLY against the challenges that the professional faces. We ride the same bikes, wear the same clothes, and ride the same roads. We participate in the sport nearly identically to the manner the professionals do. So, when faced with the possibility that someone is cheating, we react viscerally...because they're cheating in OUR sport, in OUR arena. I will never watch, much less PLAY, in a Super Bowl, a World Series, or a World Cup, but I WILL climb Zoncolan. And I don't want the leader-board tainted by some putz who has a full-time medical support staff pumping him full of juice, despite my inability to actually challenge his time.

Incredibly wise response and so true to the point! Yet, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what we cycling fans think or do as a group of followers… I figure, we could just stop buying the products that endorse these pros, but that just won’t happen; well, this does not even happen even outside of cycling! We Americans are too busy with what happens just around us (work, family, our pets, etc.) and seldom get involved with things that do not directly affect us!

When it comes to cycling, I am just fortunate enough to have been an insider in the sport for a glimpse of time… A little more than a fan, I’d say. I got to see with my own eyes what went (and still goes on) in pro cycling (and other pro sports for that matter). I got to see how deals are made and broken, how the sports machine at the highest levels operate. All this, while fans, argued away at some cycling forums or an after-ride coffee shop meeting. Yet, even as a bona fide participant of the sport, I was accused of being a "Lance hater" for so many years, I was even ridiculed sometimes and cast as an envious person. All because I just couldn't subscribe to the yellow band cult and the rest of the stuff that came along with the Lance Brand… Fast forward to this day and you all can see what has happened in the sport and where it all has taken us? Absolutely nowhere!

So, based on all my experiences, I have decided to take the position of watching the sport as an outsider and try hard not to get involved in accusations or polemics that I know well are going to take us nowhere. I mean, things are so messed up and weird that the other day I read an article that compared Froome getting the Maglia Rosa to Trump winning the election in the USA. Geez, I said, how ridiculous can cycling journalism or our comments get?!!!

I have always said that cycling is in the mess that it is (and has been) because the powers that be have never really cared for it… and that goes from the local cheating amateur athletes all the way up to the UCI, WADA, the National Federations and others we never see or hear in front of cameras or microphones... They refuse to abide and make clear rules and we end up with what we have.

As a consolation, I feel really happy that at least riding a bike helps me stay physically and mentally healthy; better than throwing a football or swinging a bat 5-10 minutes at a time as they play those sports. And as Michael Maddox pointed out, I enjoy knowing that I can use nearly the same things these pros use and it helps me validate myself after I have made a purchase for something I see them use... If they can ride up the Alto de l'Angliru or to Lake Tahoe very fast on a Trek, a Giant or a Pinarello equipped with the latest gizmos, then I am sure I can use that same stuff for any of my ordinary 2 hour rides!

I really think the world of cycling is a true reflection of the world we live in today. And that is why I think it won't change any time soon… Enjoy your rides, enjoy your toys and let the world of pro sports self destruct itself. It is the only way things may change and perhaps, some day these pro sports will reincarnate into a better pastime.

[dieonthishill]

Great summary of why this wasn’t “unbelievable” as most are saying here:

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/the-secret-pro-an-insiders-view-on-chris-froomes-crazy-giro-attack/

I’m still standing by Froomey.

[justindcady]

Uhh...I'm seeing figures of about 45-50% of the time gains was *ON* ascents. Flats and Descents were about 25/25 respectively.

[fignon's barber]

Uhh...I'm seeing figures of about 45-50% of the time gains was *ON* ascents. Flats and Descents were about 25/25 respectively.


I saw that too. I think maybe TSP was trying to emphasize the lack of cooperation in the chase group.

That being said, it's impossible to take snipets of data from a race and make assumptions. You have to look at the whole race,and make your own judgement. That's what makes it interesting.
Personally, I think Froome's performance is possible, although improbable. I wouldn't call it impossible. As I saw it, and Dumoulin said after the stage, the critical error was the group. At the bottoms of the decents, he literally sat up, coasted, and looked back to wait for the others. Then he'd tt on the flats himself, reaching the climbs already in the red. Despite that, TD pulled back around 20 seconds from Froome on the final climb. In addition, if you look at the Velon data from the entire final week, Froome's power on the up hill attacks was weakening. Froome was not getting stronger in the final week ( as P. York states in her article ON CN), he was just wearing down less than the other GC contenders, which is what Grand Tour winners do.

Like I said earlier, I'm not a Froome fan, but there's enough here to suggest it could be legit , so I'm going to enjoy the show.

[cloudguy]

he was just wearing down less than the other GC contenders, which is what Grand Tour winners do.


Especially GT winners that bring their own pillows and mattresses with them.
:rolleyes:

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