Road discs for a chicken-$H!T rider

[sfscott]

While liking to descend, I am by no means good/confident at it, especially when one throws in steep pitches, cars and lots of switchbacks.

I tend to be on the brakes a lot, and with carbon wheels (tubular) am always conscious of heat buildup, irrational(?) fears of glue giving up, etc,

I'm planning to be in the Rockies a lot in the summer, want to bring out a bike but was wondering if, for my middle-aged, novice skills, discs would be a good option.

And yes, I know this is a campy v. shimano topic with a bit of "learn to descend better, dude" thrown in, but actually want some thoughtful feedback. Have not gotten into gravel but could be a new thing once I learn the area better. Figuring I'm on the road or on the MTB.

[Black Dog]

Well campy and shimano both offer disks. Also, if you are riding the brakes a lot you are certainly not doing it right. With rim brakes you can over heat and with disks you can wear the pads and if you build up enough heat you can get some brake fade which is scary and dangerous. Suggesting that you learn to descend better is helpful advice, please don't take it as snark. When people seek out a technical solution to bypass underdeveloped skills they often end up in over their heads and in a more dangerous situation. Descending is not magic, it is a skill that can be learned by almost anyone.

[Birddog]

JMO, but you probably will learn how to descend better with the confidence inspired by having the discs at your disposal. You are more likely to push the envelop knowing the discs are there.

[nmrt]

i live in boulder. i only have road bikes with rim brakes. i have ridden these bikes all over the rockies (trail ridge road, independence pass, mt. evans, copper triangle etc) with tubular carbon wheels (reynolds thirty two) and alloy clinchers. i have never had any issues. i try not to drag the brakes and mostly i succeed. i try to alternate braking front and back and mostly i am unsuccessful. alternating braking does not stop me appreciably at 12-15% gradients when the road ahead has hard turns. yet, i have never had any issues.

having said all of this, what fun would the ride be for you if you are scared that your carbon rim (tubular or clincher or tubeless) is going to overheat and the tire is going to blow. if you are confident that based on my experience, you would be Ok, then go for it. just get the carbon/alloy tubular wheelset you have. if not, you should get a disc brake bike, put your mind at ease and enjoy the ride. that is what this is all about, isint it?

[timto]

I really enjoy descending, and enjoyed many ascent/descent when living in Vancouver - bi weekly (or weekly if I could) trips up 12km climbs. I became more confident the more I did it. And learned tips like looking up the road in corners (not right in front of you), coming into a corner in a controlled speed then coasting around it without brakes, and learning to really relax the shoulders and body - stabilizing the upper body on the bike by gently squeezing the TT in between the knees. With the above, it became natural to trust your tires and lean into the corners.

I will say that I did also pick up a hydro disc brake 6800 kit and the braking was excellent and better than rim brakes IMHO. You could really fine tune/feather and the progressive feel and power you can get with a light touch was nice.

I think if you do death grip on the bars it's actually safer as your hands will be less tired and more nimble as you can get the same braking result with a lot less hand pressure.

If your worried about it and can budget for it, the new stuff is really great. Expect the bike to be a little heavier unless you splurge for lighter stuff.

Have fun!

[Hilltopperny]

Discs are great and all, but I still prefer good old rim brakes on the road. I do have a disc road bike, but it is now back up to my rim brakes Vamoots RSL.

You could try a newer pair of clincher wheels with a textured brake surface if you are worried about scrubbing speed while descending. The exalith surface from mavic that is on my r-sys slr wheels feels like it’ll stop me at 220lbs no problem. Same goes for the gen 2 surface on my enve 3.4 SES clinchers.

If discs are a must there are lots of options out there. I am using the new Ultegra hydro disc group on my gravel bike and my disc road. It looks great and functions wonderfully, but does add some weight to your ride. Good luck in whatever you decide to do!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[likebikes]

it's not the brakes that are holding you back

[Kirk007]

Another thing to consider: Summer in the Rockies means the chance of thunderstorms any day. You might not only be descending but descending in the wet. Advantage there goes to discs but rim brakes have been fine for years (but technique does come into play here). Might want to ensure that your carbon rims are good wet weather wheels if you take your existing bike.

I found myself in a similar dilemma planning a month in the Alps this summer (although I love descending). Disc road with Campy boras vs rim brake bike with coated rims (in my case Boyds clincher). As I'm doing a couple tours, and after checking with the tour operators and sensing a desire to not deal with changing tubulars if necesssary and not carrying an extra disc wheelset with them, I am going with alloy clinchers. The weight equation is a bit of a wash lighter carbon tubulars on the disc bike but the extra weight of the disc bike vs heavier alloy clincher wheels.

Either way just ride within your limits and if that means taking it easy on descents, even stopping to enjoy the view, nothing wrong with that!

[rustychisel]

Another thing to consider: Summer in the Rockies means the chance of thunderstorms any day. You might not only be descending but descending in the wet. Advantage there goes to discs but rim brakes have been fine for years (but technique does come into play here). Might want to ensure that your carbon rims are good wet weather wheels if you take your existing bike.

I found myself in a similar dilemma planning a month in the Alps this summer (although I love descending). Disc road with Campy boras vs rim brake bike with coated rims (in my case Boyds clincher). As I'm doing a couple tours, and after checking with the tour operators and sensing a desire to not deal with changing tubulars if necesssary and not carrying an extra disc wheelset with them, I am going with alloy clinchers. The weight equation is a bit of a wash lighter carbon tubulars on the disc bike but the extra weight of the disc bike vs heavier alloy clincher wheels.

Either way just ride within your limits and if that means taking it easy on descents, even stopping to enjoy the view, nothing wrong with that!

Well said!

[fogrider]

I've got carbon rims and rim brakes on 4 bikes. in dry conditions, EE and DA brakes are pretty good with Reynolds pads. Zero Gravity is ok with the same pads. With KCNC, not great but still good enough for all but the most steep. I''m going to try the new Cryo Blue and see if they better with the KCNC. I have a bike with disc and it does stop better, but I'm not looking to drag any brake for a long descent.

[Kontact]

If I had concerns about losing braking from overuse, I would be on aluminum clinchers with rim brakes, and then using tires with enough volume that my chosen tire pressure was well below blow off max.

Anything can be made to work well, but sweating about disk brake fade and melting glue are not conducive to becoming a better descender.

[stien]

Agree with Kontact. I’ve overstressed a disc setup on my cargo bike (super heavy) on a relatively short downhill with a stop sign at the end. Never had any issues with alloy rim brakes even going down! Devil’s kitchen - over 20%.

[sfghbiker]

so... a lot of similar responses above. I have DA 9170 shifters to XTR race calipers on my cross/gravel bike and COULD NOT be happier with the braking. it modulates well, it stops on a dime with a big grab and so far I haven’t experienced fade on longer descents (Mt Tam for reference). I think especially with carbon rims, add in the possibility of wet braking on carbon and your self professed timidity re descending and you should look into it. the di2 stuff also does that shifting job pretty well :)

[soulspinner]

it's not the brakes that are holding you back

this

[weisan]

JMO, but you probably will learn how to descend better with the confidence inspired by having the discs at your disposal. You are more likely to push the envelop knowing the discs are there.

Very good point.

Good technique, lots of practice, (perceived) confidence in equipment - they all feed into each other to create the overall positive riding experience.

[avalonracing]

It's only a matter of time before manufacturers are pushing high-end ceramic brakes (racecar tech) and if you aren't riding that you might as well be on (gasp) a steel bike with aluminum wheels.:eek:

[cribbit]

Someone should make an airbrake (parachute, streamer, etc) for long descents.

[Kontact]

Someone should make an airbrake (parachute, streamer, etc) for long descents.

Unzip your jersey and sit up.

[kevinvc]

I am also not a particularly confident / aggressive descender. My road bike has aluminum clinchers and rim brakes. I try to modulate without riding the brakes too hard. I have never had an issue on dry roads of not having enough stopping power. One concern I would have if I switched to disks on the road is that the extra stopping power could make it really easy to lock up, which is a more likely occurrence than over-heating. The closest I ever came to blowing a curve and winding up in a world of trouble was because I braked too hard on an s-curve and had the tires lock and skid. Discs would have just made that even worse.

What's helped me is using a wider tire with lower pressure. My perception is that the extra contact surface makes it hold the road better. As others have said, I've found that the more often I do this kind of riding, the better I get at relaxing and cornering more smoothly.

I'm still not a need for speed kind of rider, and I often enjoy the climb more than the descent, but I'm definitely better and more confident at it than I was a few years ago.

Good luck.

[JimmyTango]

I have never had an issue on dry roads of not having enough stopping power. One concern I would have if I switched to disks on the road is that the extra stopping power could make it really easy to lock up, which is a more likely occurrence than over-heating. The closest I ever came to blowing a curve and winding up in a world of trouble was because I braked too hard on an s-curve and had the tires lock and skid. Discs would have just made that even worse.



Good luck.

Have you ever ridden a bike with good discs (hydro)? I ask because I hear this refrain about "ultimate stopping power" from rim brakes being enough, and therefore discs being too much, but in my experience hydro discs aren't better because of stopping power, but because of the added control. I've ridden MTB, CX, and road bikes all with rim and with disc brakes and in all three disciplines the rim brakes provide plenty of stopping power (more than enough to lock up any wheel on any surface) but the hydro discs are far superior** thanks to the modulation and sensitivity that they allow. The ability to control exactly how much braking force is applied is a huge part of cornering in the dirt and on the road, and the better you can control the brakes, the better you can control your speed, the less likely you are of locking up and losing traction.

I'd say to the OP that in my experience, hydro discs can only help you feel like a more confident descender. Sure, you have to learn proper cornering technique and line selection, but the added control that discs provide definitely make it easier to control the controllables.


**far superior when compared to my experience with mini V or canti brakes, and with calipers on carbon rims and in any kind of wet conditions... maybe only slightly superior when compared to good calipers on alloy rims in the dry, but still superior even in this context to me because of the lever feel.

[likebikes]

Someone should make an airbrake (parachute, streamer, etc) for long descents.

plenty of tandems (esp. those used for touring use) have 3 brakes- front, rear, and a drum brake controlled by a friction shifter.

[doomridesout]

I have a "road" bike with R685 disc that feels sublime with 32c tires going up and down big hills. I recommend something like that. I have to admit I'm eyeballing the Canyon Endurace...

[MikeD]

Have you ever ridden a bike with good discs (hydro)? I ask because I hear this refrain about "ultimate stopping power" from rim brakes being enough, and therefore discs being too much, but in my experience hydro discs aren't better because of stopping power, but because of the added control. I've ridden MTB, CX, and road bikes all with rim and with disc brakes and in all three disciplines the rim brakes provide plenty of stopping power (more than enough to lock up any wheel on any surface) but the hydro discs are far superior** thanks to the modulation and sensitivity that they allow. The ability to control exactly how much braking force is applied is a huge part of cornering in the dirt and on the road, and the better you can control the brakes, the better you can control your speed, the less likely you are of locking up and losing traction.

I'd say to the OP that in my experience, hydro discs can only help you feel like a more confident descender. Sure, you have to learn proper cornering technique and line selection, but the added control that discs provide definitely make it easier to control the controllables.


**far superior when compared to my experience with mini V or canti brakes, and with calipers on carbon rims and in any kind of wet conditions... maybe only slightly superior when compared to good calipers on alloy rims in the dry, but still superior even in this context to me because of the lever feel.



This I do not believe. Rim brakes modulate just fine and in a panic situation, the more powerful brake (with less hand force at the lever) is the one that will be more prone to lock up.

[JimmyTango]

This I do not believe. Rim brakes modulate just fine and in a panic situation, the more powerful brake (with less hand force at the lever) is the one that will be more prone to lock up.

I guess I should qualify that when I say “modulate” I don’t just mean “touchier” or simply more sensitive... I mean easier to modulate. Like, more control over how much (or how little) force you’re squeezing out of the brake. I know on my bikes I have to be more careful on my rim brakes to not go from “hard braking” to “locked up” because it is a more finicky threshold than hard braking on my discs.

Have you found hydro discs to be grabbier than rim brakes?

[John H.]

I think your concerns are valid, and I think that speed control is one of the main benefits of disc brakes.
They do a better job "speed checking" than a rim brake, and it wheels better because the pull is not on the rim.

While liking to descend, I am by no means good/confident at it, especially when one throws in steep pitches, cars and lots of switchbacks.

I tend to be on the brakes a lot, and with carbon wheels (tubular) am always conscious of heat buildup, irrational(?) fears of glue giving up, etc,

I'm planning to be in the Rockies a lot in the summer, want to bring out a bike but was wondering if, for my middle-aged, novice skills, discs would be a good option.

And yes, I know this is a campy v. shimano topic with a bit of "learn to descend better, dude" thrown in, but actually want some thoughtful feedback. Have not gotten into gravel but could be a new thing once I learn the area better. Figuring I'm on the road or on the MTB.

[simonov]

Have you found hydro discs to be grabbier than rim brakes?

I have with Shimano R685 compared with a variety of rim brake + wheel combinations.

[JimmyTango]

I have with Shimano R685 compared with a variety of rim brake + wheel combinations.

Hmm, ok interesting. My experience with rim and brake combos, in terms of purely being prone to "unintended skidding" have been (from most likely to lock-up when I'm just trying to stop at the top of the list to easiest to control at the bottom):

1. Old school shimano V brakes on ceramic rims on 26" MTB tires
2. TRP 8.4 mini V brakes on alloy rims on CX tires
3. BB7 mechanical discs on a CX bike
4. Force caliper brakes on carbon rims with ****ty pads road tires
5. Frog-leg canti brakes on alloy rims with CX tires
6. Force caliper brakes on carbon rims with nice black prince pads road tires
7. Force caliper brakes on alloy rims road tires
8. Force CX1 discs (160mm rotors) on CX tires
9. Shimano XT discs (180mm rotors) on 27.5x2.3 tires

I'd say the scariest for me was trying to descend twisty roads on my road race bike with carbon clinchers and brake pads that were too hard... I would brake hard into corners but had a really hard time controlling the difference between just dragging my brakes and pulling on the levers so hard that I would initiate a skid. This was mostly remideid by getting softer pads, but it has never been a problem with hydro discs for me. YMMV and all that I guess.

All I know is: I can lock-up and skid any bike I'm on with no problems, so to me the added feel of hydro discs (I think it is more about the way fluid translates lever power more than than the actual discs dong the braking, maybe hydro rim brakes are equally as awesome), along with not having to worry about melting rims (obviously not an advantage if running alloy rims) make me pretty set on a disc for my next road bike. They just make me feel more in control.