Custom Titanium Options

[Jeff N.]

It always puzzles me how some custom Ti frame builders are limited with certain options. For example, some frame builders only offer 27.2 or 30.9 seat post sizes (Caletti, Firefly, No 22, Moots) while others offer 31.6 (Mosaic, Holland, et.al.). Same thing with internal rear brake cable routing. Seems to me that all these high-end builders could/should offer these and all options. What's the limiting factor? Thoughts?

[tuscanyswe]

If i recall correctly..

I was told by an upscale brand that 31.6 diameter tubing were not done in a large enough scale to a good enough quality so the they did not think it was a good option for use in seatposts.

Bs or not. I dunno .)

[eddief]

more inventory = more dead money.

Maybe the 80/20 rule applies?

[Ken Robb]

How much experience is required for a builder to become really skilled with a type/size material and/or technique? Some custom builders may want to stick with the things they have mastered and they may not feel that offering buyers more options won't improve the final product.

SOME (not all) builders may feel that offering many options is part of the mystique that leads people to order custom frames even if the builder knows some of the options won't improve the final product. Surely some very good builders tell customers something like "just tell me how you want the bike to perform and leave the design details to me."

[sandyrs]

I see no reason a builder who has plenty of business should feel compelled to offer options they don't consider worthwhile, either for the rider or for themselves.

[Black Dog]

If i recall correctly..

I was told by an upscale brand that 31.6 diameter tubing were not done in a large enough scale to a good enough quality so the they did not think it was a good option for use in seatposts.

Bs or not. I dunno .)

Hmmmm... Litespeed does 31.6 in Ti. The OD is standard 34.9.

[tv_vt]

Don't know. Could also tie into their build philosophy.

I know Eriksen only does 27.2 ID seat tubes, or almost 'only'. Certainly doesn't hurt the ride at all.

Ti is for sure harder to work with than steel.

[zank]

Sizing the ID of a seat tube for a seat post is generally done in one of two ways. One way is to glue a composite shim and the other way is to weld in a thicker extension. Generally speaking with 34.9 mm seat tubes, the shim works well with 27.2 (nice because just about every post comes in 27.2) and the weld in works well with 31.6 (nice because you don't need to weld in a thicker extension to reduce to 27.2). Note that there are exceptions.

Not all builders want to add more heat to a tube than what is necessary and some builders feel very strongly about not wanting to pierce a tube. Any weld invites contamination and there is risk involved with expensive material. It's similar to the topic that pops up often about weld-in vs riv nut bottle mounts.

Each builder/company has their own philosophy and comfort level. Having observed and been a part of this niche for a long time, I can say that a lot of marketing speak has been written because a company doesn't want to do something. This is especially true about titanium.

[David Kirk]

So....is the idea that all builders should offer the same options?

dave

[Pegoready]

What bike are you planning next? :rolleyes:

[Mark McM]

From a rider/owner perspective, what are the practical implications of 27.2mm vs. 30.9mm vs. 31.6mm seat post diameters?

[tommyrod74]

From a rider/owner perspective, what are the practical implications of 27.2mm vs. 30.9mm vs. 31.6mm seat post diameters?

27.2 allows for more seatpost flex (especially given a lot of exposed seatpost and/or setback) and therefore more seated comfort. Maybe better for smaller/lighter riders.

Larger diameters allow for a stiffer seat tube and theoretically a stiffer frame - bigger interface with BB shell, top tube, etc. Maybe a plus for larger/more powerful riders. Also - easier to find dropper posts in 31.6.

Of course, there are other ways to build in stiffness or compliance.

[Clean39T]

So....is the idea that all builders should offer the same options?



dave


Curious if you see any reason to do anything other than a 27.2? Is it just about being able to connect an OS TT?

Any reason a framebuilder couldn’t/wouldn’t be able to shim an OS tube to fit 27.2 off the bat?

The only thing I find annoying about my Ellis is the 30.6 post it requires. I think I’ll be able to find a way to shim it so I have more post options, but it sure would be nice to just slide something off the shelf in there (other than a god-forsaken Thomson..). That’s picking a fleck of sand off a giant pearl though - and I’m sure that Dave had a reason.

To answer, no, I don’t think all should be uniform. Not that anyone else could do what you do anyway...but I like seeing builders have touches that make them unique. Variety is the spice of life...except when it comes to seatposts and threaded B.B.s that is [emoji4]

[Clean39T]

27.2 allows for more seatpost flex (especially given a lot of exposed seatpost and/or setback) and therefore more seated comfort. Maybe better for smaller/lighter riders.



Larger diameters allow for a stiffer seat tube and theoretically a stiffer frame - bigger interface with BB shell, top tube, etc. Maybe a plus for larger/more powerful riders. Also - easier to find dropper posts in 31.6.



Of course, there are other ways to build in stiffness or compliance.


When it comes to stiffness, it isn’t just about size - it’s how you use it... amiright???

[vqdriver]

The only thing I find annoying about my Ellis is the 30.6 post it requires.

oy, that'd be annoying for sure.
my time uses a 29.2 for some unknown reason

[Kontact]

I would be appalled if custom builder's agreed to build every which way and had no opinions on how some things should be done. That kind of ambivalence to design is what Chinese weld shops are for.

[tigoat]

If one builder does not offer what you want then go to another one, as life is too short not to get what you want with your money. With that said, some builders are more flexible to work with than others so you just have to shop around for more options. Erik Rolf from Alliance was very flexible to work with when I had him work on some of my projects (I am as picky as it gets) a while back, as he would do things that some of his builder friends would not do. Not only that, I would rate Erik a top-notch Ti builder, as I would bet him against some of the well known names in the business. Unlike some others so called "custom" builders, Erik would come as close to a true custom builder in my book.

[Jeff N.]

I'm talking TITANIUM here. If the seat tube OD for most builders is 34.9 and a 31.6 seat post option is only available for a select few, what is the limiting factor of the other builders who only offer 27.2? Are they using a tubing with thicker walls or something? Do they not want to use tubing that'd allow for a 31.6 seat post? If so, why not? Just wondering why some can and some can't.
I remember asking SEVEN why they didn't have internal rear brake cable routing as an option. "We don't think it has any practical advantage" was their answer, pretty much. Others have said, "We think the holes create unnecessary stress risers", which seems like a cop out. Also, I see MOOTS now offers it...they didn't before.

[Clean39T]

I would be appalled if custom builder's agreed to build every which way and had no opinions on how some things should be done. That kind of ambivalence to design is what Chinese weld shops are for.


I think we’re talking two different things here. A Holland will have a different design than a Potts, but both are going to be expertly done.

[Clean39T]

I remember asking SEVEN why they didn't have internal rear brake cable routing as an option. "We don't think it has any practical advantage" was their answer, pretty much. Also, I see MOOTS now offers it...they didn't before.


Moots is probably just doing it for hydro disc brakes, not regular caliper brakes.

And I have to agree with Seven in general...though the setup on my Ellis is pretty dang sweet from an artistic standpoint.

[tigoat]

For a Ti frame, the seatpost diameter is determined by the insert that is welded to the seat tube. Paragon makes these Ti inserts. There is no reason why a Ti builder is not able to do one in either of the three sizes.

Internal cable/hose routing usually requires inserting a tube into a tube and welding it in place, which could be a challenge for some builders.


I'm talking TITANIUM here. If the seat tube OD is 34.9 and a 31.6 seat post option is only available for a select few, what is the limiting factor of the other builders who only offer 27.2? Are they using a tubing with thicker walls or something? Do they not want to use tubing that'd allow for a 31.6 seat post? If so, why not? Just wondering why some can and some can't.
I remember asking SEVEN why they didn't have internal rear brake cable routing as an option. "We don't think it has any practical advantage" was their answer, pretty much. Also, I see MOOTS now offers it...they didn't before.

[myette10]

How many seat post size options do you need? It's a GD seat post. Budget in the cost for a new one while you're plunking down $5k for a ti frameset if your current one doesn't fit. Donate the old one to the homeless and go ahead and treat yourself to something nice. You're worth it.

[Jeff N.]

For a Ti frame, the seatpost diameter is determined by the insert that is welded to the seat tube. Paragon makes these Ti inserts. There is no reason why a Ti builder is not able to do one in either of the three sizes.

Internal cable/hose routing usually requires inserting a tube into a tube and welding it in place, which could be a challenge for some builders.
Exactly! And yes, internal rear cable routing is extra work but...as with most builders that offer this...they can present a bill for such services.

[Jeff N.]

How many seat post size options do you need? It's a GD seat post. Budget in the cost for a new one while you're plunking down $5k for a ti frameset if your current one doesn't fit. Donate the old one to the homeless and go ahead and treat yourself to something nice. You're worth it.Just two... 27.2 and 31.6.

[tigoat]

I would be appalled if custom builder's agreed to build every which way and had no opinions on how some things should be done. That kind of ambivalence to design is what Chinese weld shops are for.

Oh no a builder should never listen to a customer in regards to how a frame is built in terms of construction techniques, as that is not the same thing as offering all the desirable features that a customer wants.

[myette10]

Just two... 27.2 and 31.6.

Sorry man I feel for you.

[old fat man]

I'm talking TITANIUM here. If the seat tube OD for most builders is 34.9 and a 31.6 seat post option is only available for a select few, what is the limiting factor of the other builders who only offer 27.2? Are they using a tubing with thicker walls or something? Do they not want to use tubing that'd allow for a 31.6 seat post? If so, why not? Just wondering why some can and some can't.
I remember asking SEVEN why they didn't have internal rear brake cable routing as an option. "We don't think it has any practical advantage" was their answer, pretty much. Others have said, "We think the holes create unnecessary stress risers", which seems like a cop out. Also, I see MOOTS now offers it...they didn't before.

Did you even read the response that Mike provided to you?

[old fat man]

For a Ti frame, the seatpost diameter is determined by the insert that is welded to the seat tube. Paragon makes these Ti inserts. There is no reason why a Ti builder is not able to do one in either of the three sizes.

Internal cable/hose routing usually requires inserting a tube into a tube and welding it in place, which could be a challenge for some builders.

Please show me the ti insert that Paragon sells to bring a 34.9 tube down to 27.2.





It's okay to not know everything

[Kontact]

Please show me the ti insert that Paragon sells to bring a 34.9 tube down to 27.2.





It's okay to not know everything

Why would they? There's no reason to combine a flexible seat post with an ultra stiff seat tube. If someone wants a 31.6 seat post it is going to be paired with a reasonably matched seat tube diameter.

[Kontact]

Oh no a builder should never listen to a customer in regards to how a frame is built in terms of construction techniques, as that is not the same thing as offering all the desirable features that a customer wants.

It isn't the same, but it is brand differentiation. Seven, for instance, refuses to do quite a range of things because they believe it adversely affects the ride and long term durability of the frame. Other companies have their own philosophies that limit what they will or won't do.

We should like that these companies have created their own sets of rules through long experience, rather than getting peeved that every custom maker is like every other.


Does anyone actually complain that Colnago won't supply them with a curved fork or that Spectrum won't TIG a steel frame? Let's get real, here.

[Mikej]

Don't know. Could also tie into their build philosophy.

I know Eriksen only does 27.2 ID seat tubes, or almost 'only'. Certainly doesn't hurt the ride at all.

Ti is for sure harder to work with than steel.

Depends on the size- there are 30.9 Eriksen bikes out there. Friend had one nd it was sooo bumpy for my 155 lbs body.

[tigoat]

Please show me the ti insert that Paragon sells to bring a 34.9 tube down to 27.2.
It's okay to not know everything

Call them, they will make you one, as they make a lot of custom machined parts not shown in the catalog. These seat tube inserts are just a simple stepped sleeve. Heck I could machine you one with a manual lathe (no CNC) with you pay me enough.

[tigoat]

It isn't the same, but it is brand differentiation. Seven, for instance, refuses to do quite a range of things because they believe it adversely affects the ride and long term durability of the frame. Other companies have their own philosophies that limit what they will or won't do.

We should like that these companies have created their own sets of rules through long experience, rather than getting peeved that every custom maker is like every other.


Does anyone actually complain that Colnago won't supply them with a curved fork or that Spectrum won't TIG a steel frame? Let's get real, here.

I think we are on the same page here.

[Jeff N.]

[QUOTE=old fat man;2366256]Did you even read the response that Mike provided to you?[/QUOTE .... ...

[Kontact]

Call them, they will make you one, as they make a lot of custom machined parts not shown in the catalog. These seat tube inserts are just a simple stepped sleeve. Heck I could machine you one with a manual lathe (no CNC) with you pay me enough.

And what a huge chunk of pointlessly heavy machining it would be.

[tigoat]

And what a huge chunk of pointlessly heavy machining it would be.

Indeed. That is what you get when you have to step it down that much. In fact, another way of doing it would be to press (permanent not those slip in ones) in an aluminum sleeve instead of making the sleeve entirely out of titanium.

[Kontact]

Indeed. That is what you get when you have to step it down that much. In fact, another way of doing it would be to press (permanent not those slip in ones) in an aluminum sleeve instead of making the sleeve entirely out of titanium.

Well, you can always accomplish that with a shim, but most Ti builders have gotten away from aluminum sleeves - probably because of the corrosion issue. But it would certainly be easy to use a thick CF sleeve.

I just don't understand the design rationale behind having wildly different post and tube diameters. No one would put a step in a seat mast style frame.

[Butch]

I can give a little insight as to how and why Moots uses 27.2 and 30.9 and what drove that decision. Obviously 27.2 is a great diameter for a seatpost and a Ti seatpost especially. The way Moots makes that size is to use an aluminum glued in insert to bring the 30.9 ID of the insert down to 27.2. We chose 30.9 because it is a popular size (dropper posts readily available) and so the insert welded into the top of the seat tube had a good diameter to wall ratio. As the ID grows for a given OD the wall thickness gets thinner and with titanium the distortion that takes place when the top tube and the seat stays are welded making it out of round increases dramatically. This makes it difficult to have a round interface between the post and the insert.
The other reason Moots selected these sizes is to provide an in house made seatpost. The materials Moots purchases from Sandvik for the seatpost material has the diameter held to a very tight tolerance +0.000" -0.004" in OD and needs to be ordered 1000' at a time. Again the diameter to wall ratio plays a part in getting a post that is strong and lightweight and the mill needs to inspect each tube to make sure it is to the diameter spec.
One more thing I want to share here that might be a little off topic is that the maximum diameter to wall ration before the "beer can" effect hits is 46 to 1. Working with Ancotech, Sandvik and Haynes over the years with developing tubing for the Moots bikes I learned that when the diameter goes up getting a heat treated tube in a CWSR state becomes very difficult to keep the tube round and straight. This is why whenever you see a titanium tube that is 44mm or bigger it is made in China and will be annealed. RMI used to make a 1.75 diameter tube that was seamed in 3/2.5 and Haynes used to make a 1.64" diameter tube in 0.035" that was CWSR as well. When we bought that material the engineer at Haynes called and was quite proud of pulling off that dimension with the mechanical properties they achieved.

[Jeff N.]

I must respectfully disagree about 30.9 being a popular size with seat posts. Unless you a dropper type seat post that you mention, or want an ugly, no-setback Thomson or some other Chi-wan-made post, your options are quite limited, IMO (Enve? Zipp? Deda? Fizik? Forget it). I own several Ti bikes (Holland, Mosaic, Lynskey, Passoni) that're spec'd with 31.6 posts (and it is the size that I'll request for any custom Ti frame if it's available), because of the added stiffness they provide. I'm a big guy. These frames have quite a bit of TT slope, resulting in a lot of seat post showing, so the added stiffness that the 31.6 post provides (over a 27.2) is a real plus.

[sandyrs]

I must respectfully disagree about 30.9 being a popular size with seat posts. Unless you a dropper type seat post that you mention, or want an ugly, no-setback Thomson or some other Chi-wan-made post, your options are quite limited, IMO (Enve? Zipp? Deda? Forget it). I own several Ti bikes (Holland, Mosaic, Lynskey, Passoni) that're spec'd with 31.6 posts (and it is the size that I'll request for any custom Ti frame if it's available), because of the added stiffness they provide. I'm a big guy. These frames have quite a bit of TT slope, resulting in a lot of seat post showing, so the added stiffness that the 31.6 post provides (over a 27.2) is a real plus.

Enve absolutely makes a 30.9 post as do lots of other brands.

Oh and the thomson setback post comes in 30.9 too. Seems like you’re confusing 30.9 (common) with 30.6 (found on a few high end steel tube sets, far less common)

[Jeff N.]

Enve absolutely makes a 30.9 post as do lots of other brands.

Oh and the thomson setback post comes in 30.9 too. Seems like you’re confusing 30.9 (common) with 30.6 (found on a few high end steel tube sets, far less common)No confusion. I stand corrected on the Enve. Give me "lots of other brands".

[sandyrs]

No confusion. I stand corrected on the Enve. Give me "lots of other brands".

Thomson, Ritchey, PRO, 3T, Easton, whisky, salsa, I’d keep going but that’s what the 30.9 filter on any major online bike shop is for. http://www.jensonusa.com/Rigid-Posts?Diameter=30.9mm

[Jeff N.]

Thomson, Ritchey, PRO, 3T, Easton, whisky, salsa, I’d keep going but that’s what the 30.9 filter on any major online bike shop is for. http://www.jensonusa.com/Rigid-Posts?Diameter=30.9mmThanks! I'll take a look! Looked. All ugly, all look to be for MB's. I give.

[Kontact]

I must respectfully disagree about 30.9 being a popular size with seat posts. Unless you a dropper type seat post that you mention, or want an ugly, no-setback Thomson or some other Chi-wan-made post, your options are quite limited, IMO (Enve? Zipp? Deda? Fizik? Forget it). I own several Ti bikes (Holland, Mosaic, Lynskey, Passoni) that're spec'd with 31.6 posts (and it is the size that I'll request for any custom Ti frame if it's available), because of the added stiffness they provide. I'm a big guy. These frames have quite a bit of TT slope, resulting in a lot of seat post showing, so the added stiffness that the 31.6 post provides (over a 27.2) is a real plus.

A quick look on Ebay shows Enve, Easton, Raceface, Shimano, Fizik, Specialized, Ritchey, KCNC, and Kore readily available in 30.9. Is there some particular feature you're looking for in a 30.9 post?

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[colker]

Well, you can always accomplish that with a shim, but most Ti builders have gotten away from aluminum sleeves - probably because of the corrosion issue. But it would certainly be easy to use a thick CF sleeve.

I just don't understand the design rationale behind having wildly different post and tube diameters. No one would put a step in a seat mast style frame.

I had a ti frame w/ aluminum inserts on the head and seat tube. Bike creaked, repeatedly. It drove me nuts.
I moved everything incl. headset to a steel frame and voila: no creaks.

[Kontact]

I had a ti frame w/ aluminum inserts on the head and seat tube. Bike creaked, repeatedly. It drove me nuts.
I moved everything incl. headset to a steel frame and voila: no creaks.

I have the same - no creaks. If it started to make noise I would use the warranty.

[Jeff N.]

I don't really understand the issue here, sorry. No single, specific builder should be expected to offer all of the options that exist on the market, and they won't.

So, if one wants only a 31.6 frame and seatpost, and since at least some frame-builders offer 31.6 seattubes, and at least some manufacturers offer 31.6 seatposts, just buy from those people, no? Or write Albert Bold a nice letter.

We're not talking about unicorns here, after all.
.Yep, that's pretty much what it boils down to...and pretty much what I'll do...or just go with a 27.2 (they all offer that). End of discussion.

[m4rk540]

Jeff, why do you like Ti so much?

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[Jeff N.]

Jeff, why do you like Ti so much?Lasts forever...best ride in the world. Shows off REAL craftsmanship and attention to detail the best. It just grabs me. It's awesome. I know I'm nuts. I KNOW it.

[Jeff N.]

If you like 31.6mm ti posts (and I completely understand why, aesthetically as well on OS ti seatubes on frames your size) and you can't find a satisfactory stock one, I think the Bold Precision custom titanium seatposts (http://www.boldprecision.com/bicycle-products.html) are beautiful, rare, iconic, with nice hardware. They cost some, but on a top-shelf custom ti frame....
.Bold makes nice posts for sure. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzipp makes the most aesthetically pleasing alloy post out there right now, IMO, but 27.2 and 31.6 are the only options. If they only made a 30.9......

[m4rk540]

Lasts forever...best ride in the world. Shows off REAL craftsmanship and attention to detail the best. It just grabs me. It's awesome. I know I'm nuts. I KNOW it.

I think it's expensive, limited and boring. But I'm glad there are fans. The more bikes the better.

[Jeff N.]

I think it's expensive, limited and boring. But I'm glad there are fans. The more bikes the better.
So what's YOUR flavor?

[m4rk540]

Carbon for a fast road bike; I'm a wannabe sprinter.

Steel for a pretty road bike: I'm superficial.

Aluminum for an everyday road bike; I'm practical.

[OtayBW]

Lasts forever...best ride in the world. Shows off REAL craftsmanship and attention to detail the best. It just grabs me. It's awesome. I know I'm nuts. I KNOW it.
I really didn't have much to say until this post, so a few comments:

Lasts forever: OK
Best ride in the world: If you say so...
Shows off REAL craftsmanship and attention to detail the best: You're kidding, right?
It just grabs me: THAT I can accept.
It's awesome: Fine by me.
I'm nuts. I KNOW it: No argument. ;)

[avalonracing]

Lasts forever...best ride in the world. Shows off REAL craftsmanship and attention to detail the best. It just grabs me. It's awesome. I know I'm nuts. I KNOW it.

I'm with you, Jeff. Flashy paint on steel can be cool... until it gets scratched, dinged and starts to rust. Carbon can be light and the tube shapes fun... until one of those tubes is tapped in a tip-over or it has some unforeseen force stress a tube in a "direction it wasn't designed to be stressed" and it cracks. (Not to mention the noisy bottom brackets in 84 "standards"). But a brushed Ti bike with a BSC BB is strong, light, rides great and can look like new indefinitely with a $2 Scotchbrite pad.
Ti bikes FTW!

[Hellgate]

Call Max or Bill at DKCB, they'll hook you up. What do you want?

http://www.dkcb.us/

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[Jeff N.]

Call Max or Bill at DKCB, they'll hook you up. What do you want?

http://www.dkcb.us/

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using TapatalkSpoke to them already...they'll sell complete bikes only. Strange.

[Hellgate]

Spoke to them already...they'll sell complete bikes only. Strange.That's not correct. I've bought one complete bike, and a frameset that is due next week.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[Jeff N.]

That's not correct. I've bought one complete bike, and a frameset that is due next week.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using TapatalkThen consider yourself lucky...I talked to both guys and they reiterated that I must buy a complete bike or nothing. They said sometimes, once a year, usually at the end of the year, they'll sell a frameset only...but for now, it's a complete bike or no bike at all. I said thank you and hung up. Honest to God.

[Hellgate]

Odd. I ordered my 333fab frameset in November. I suppose that's the end of the year thing...

When I bought my Davidson way back when, I had the option of a frameset, oppted for a complete bike as it was very reasonable.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[Jeff N.]

How weird. Why would they do that? Plenty of potential clients must have enough bits for a full build, an extremely nice full build, in their parts bins and/or simply want a new frameset, right? I don't understand why they would want to exclude that entire market.

:confused:
.Their explanation was, "We just can't profit by offering framesets alone." Ohhhhh-kayyyyyy.......

[Jeff N.]

I really didn't have much to say until this post, so a few comments:

Lasts forever: OK
Best ride in the world: If you say so...
Shows off REAL craftsmanship and attention to detail the best: You're kidding, right?
It just grabs me: THAT I can accept.
It's awesome: Fine by me.
I'm nuts. I KNOW it: No argument. ;)
Well, heck, 5 out of 6 ain't bad! :D

[Ken Robb]

How weird. Why would they do that? Plenty of potential clients must have enough bits for a full build, an extremely nice full build, in their parts bins and/or simply want a new frameset, right? I don't understand why they would want to exclude that entire market.

:confused:
.

Well, if they have a wait-list they might only want to sell complete bikes to maximize their profit. Why make buyers of complete bikes wait while they build frames for folks who don't want to buy a complete bike? If that attitude seems offensive let's say they want to be sure that their frames are guaranteed fine components expertly installed so their performance is maximized. :)

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[Hellgate]

What's even more confusing is that I just looked at the 333 website and all I see are butted or straight-gauge, rim or disc, frame only prices. I can't find full-build, kit, fork option, etc. prices anywhere. Bizarre.
.Exactly... that's how I bought mine.

My SR group is only 14 months only, I don't need another group. In addition to the frame I bought an Enve fork, a Fiziks stem, King HS, and paint.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[Lionel]

Ti, yes. Call Tom Kellog and be done forever. Comes with a 31.6 post too, which looks best with oversize DT and TT. I hate shims.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[Lionel]

Lionel, does Kellogg supply his own (Seven?) 31.6 ti posts with his OS ti frames?
.

No he does not. Seven can probably provide one. I have a 31.6 carbon Deda post on mine. The ride is sublime.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[Clean39T]

There is a cheap solution:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F15 3026478603

But I know you been there, done that...

Actually, yours was much nicer.

[Lionel]

I think the Seven ti posts are only 27.2. That's why I was confused when you wrote, "Comes with a 31.6 post too..." above.

But in fact the Kellogg frames don't come with any post at all?
.

Sorry I meant to say 31.6 ST ID. Indeed frames do not come with posts, and seven may very well not have a 31.6 post.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[m4rk540]

Ti, yes. Call Tom Kellog and be done forever. Comes with a 31.6 post too, which looks best with oversize DT and TT. I hate shims.

Lionel, you average 1 ride on the Spectrum for every 100 on the Pina, n'est-ce pas?

[Lionel]

Lionel, you average 1 ride on the Spectrum for every 100 on the Pina, n'est-ce pas?

No, the Spectrum is my main ride in CA. The F8 is my main ride in France. Given that I am in CA about 50% of the time the Spectrum sees quite a lot of riding. It's been superb. If I had to go it again I would pretty much order the exact same bike.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[m4rk540]

No, the Spectrum is my main ride in CA. The F8 is my main ride in France. Given that I am in CA about 50% of the time the Spectrum sees quite a lot of riding. It's been superb. If I had to go it again I would pretty much order the exact same bike.

The 100 page threads on VS confused me.

[Lionel]

The 100 page threads on VS confused me.

Unfortunately it is closed so I can't comment anymore :)

This is the real deal. Sounds like a good opportunity for a quick picture

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7304/26875654764_b7aa245924_h.jpg

[m4rk540]

Lovely bike.

Can't imagine how that could be improved.

Anyway, I've just noticed that the guys who have a Ti race bike have one Ti bike, around here at least. It doesn't seem common to be a Ti collector. That may be the ultimate praise or validation for the material.

[cribbit]

Lovely bike.

Can't imagine how that could be improved.

Anyway, I've just noticed that the guys who have a Ti race bike have one Ti bike, around here at least. It doesn't seem common to be a Ti collector. That may be the ultimate praise or validation for the material.

There are few of us, but we exist! There's quite a few on this forum actually. I currently have only 5 titanium bikes, I've bought and resold another half dozen. Some people have dozens.

[dogrange]

Anyone else notice that the PMP saddle cradle in the splash photo for this thread looks identical to the saddle cradle on a Pinarello F8? Makes sense, I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeff N.]

Oh, OK, crystal clear now. Thanks.

Right, I think Seven are only 27.2.

If I were looking for a great 31.6mm titanium seatpost, I would start and stop right here, period:
PMP titanium setback seatpost, 31,6mm (https://ciclicorsa.com/shop/pmpbike-sb14-titanium-seatpost/).
Diameter: 27.2mm or 31.6mm.
Setback = 0, 14, or 27mm.
Head color: Silver, black, gold, blue, red.
Clamps: for carbon or for metal.

Also, older 30.9mm diameter (currently not in production afaik) can still be found occasionally on eBay, etc.

https://e.share.photo.xuite.net/gocycling/1e2508c/9771227/432523185_m.jpg
.Indeed, PMP Ti posts are superb. a Spectrum CAN be ordered to take a 31.6 post. They do NOT offer internal rear brake cable routing though (there I go again with "options".). This is how I like to handle external routing...a length of derailleur housing with a plastic ferrule on each end and a coupla rubber snubbers in the middle section.

[myette10]

Stopped in to see if you all were still discussing seat posts. Wasn't disappointed.

[joosttx]

Lionel’s spectrum is one of the prettiest bikes I ever seen.

[nmrt]

Indeed!
I need to save this as an inspiration for my future Ti frame. :)

Lionel’s spectrum is one of the prettiest bikes I ever seen.

[colker]

It doesn't seem common to be a Ti collector. That may be the ultimate praise or validation for the material.

There are Ti bikes collectors. I know titanium mountain bike collectors.

[Lionel]

Remember that day Houston? Your C60 was also a cool looking bike :)

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1647/24786112961_0b32385200_h.jpg

As for the TT internal routing TK and Seven are not for it as it weakens the tube.

[Jeff N.]

Yes, that's their line...it weakens the tube. Mosaic, IMO, does the cleanest work when it comes to internal routing...no visible sign of welding of the inside tube whatsoever. But, doggone it, that TT is so dang weak now, I'm afraid it'll snap any second!:rolleyes:

[mcteague]

Back when Merlin made the Spectrum Ti frames, an internal rear brake cable was one of the things Tom did to his version. That, along with grinding down the weld marks. I had one back in the 90s. Guess when production was moved to Seven they put the kibosh on that.

Tim

[happycampyer]

I think that you have to understand where the different builders are coming from. Whether you agree with their positions (or the builders agree with others' positions) is another matter.

Seven is perhaps the biggest purist in the space. Afaik Seven still only uses pop rivets for water bottle bosses. Their position is that any hole in a tube, and any attendant welding, is a potential source of weakness, so they want to keep the holes etc. a minimum. Serotta had similar limits on what they were willing to do, and I know from speaking with former employees that those limits were based on tests they performed or had performed on frames. Serotta wouldn't drill a triple-butted frame for electronic wiring because test frames didn't pass their stringent tests. Would the frames ever fail in the real world? From what I understand, probably not, but that was their standard and they were sticking to it. I would imagine that Seven also does testing of various features before they introduce them. Another thing that Seven will not do is anodize their frames. I would imagine that a lot of customers who would be interested in a Seven end up going elsewhere just on that feature alone, but it doesn't seem to be hurting their business.

My guess is that the smaller builders don't do as much, if any, testing. Their experience with the material tells them that the risk of failure is extremely low, and they don't need to see a frame fail after 999,999 cycles when only 100,000 cycles would do.

And then the question of offering lots of options comes down to scale. Companies like Seven and Moots are set up for production, so offering a gazillion custom options just isn't practical. Their solutions to flat-mount disc brakes is a testament to the need for efficiency, although their approaches are completely different (Seven incorporates the brake mounts into its dropout, Moots 3-D prints a dropout with mounts). Neither solution is as visually elegant compared to Mosaic, Firefly, Eriksen, etc., but each solution allows the respective company to produce straight frames to their respective high standards in volume. Mosaics, Fireflys and Eriksens are just as straight, but it takes a lot more time to execute, and the risk of f'ing up is greater.

A feature that Mosaic offers that is very clean and very few builders offer is a welded front derailleur hanger. Totally frivolous, but once you see one, you want one on all of your ti frames.

[Jeff N.]

I think that you have to understand where the different builders are coming from. Whether you agree with their positions (or the builders agree with others' positions) is another matter.

Seven is perhaps the biggest purist in the space. Afaik Seven still only uses pop rivets for water bottle bosses. Their position is that any hole in a tube, and any attendant welding, is a potential source of weakness, so they want to keep the holes etc. a minimum. Serotta had similar limits on what they were willing to do, and I know from speaking with former employees that those limits were based on tests they performed or had performed on frames. Serotta wouldn't drill a triple-butted frame for electronic wiring because test frames didn't pass their stringent tests. Would the frames ever fail in the real world? From what I understand, probably not, but that was their standard and they were sticking to it. I would imagine that Seven also does testing of various features before they introduce them. Another thing that Seven will not do is anodize their frames. I would imagine that a lot of customers who would be interested in a Seven end up going elsewhere just on that feature alone, but it doesn't seem to be hurting their business.

My guess is that the smaller builders don't do as much, if any, testing. Their experience with the material tells them that the risk of failure is extremely low, and they don't need to see a frame fail after 999,999 cycles when only 100,000 cycles would do.

And then the question of offering lots of options comes down to scale. Companies like Seven and Moots are set up for production, so offering a gazillion custom options just isn't practical. Their solutions to flat-mount disc brakes is a testament to the need for efficiency, although their approaches are completely different (Seven incorporates the brake mounts into its dropout, Moots 3-D prints a dropout with mounts). Neither solution is as visually elegant compared to Mosaic, Firefly, Eriksen, etc., but each solution allows the respective company to produce straight frames to their respective high standards in volume. Mosaics, Fireflys and Eriksens are just as straight, but it takes a lot more time to execute, and the risk of f'ing up is greater.

A feature that Mosaic offers that is very clean and very few builders offer is a welded front derailleur hanger. Totally frivolous, but once you see one, you want one on all of your ti frames.
Good read. Thanks.

[colker]

Lovely bike.

Can't imagine how that could be improved.


I could think of one albeit small improvement: raise the water bottle holder on the seat tube on Lionel´s Spectrum.

[joosttx]

Remember that day Houston? Your C60 was also a cool looking bike :)

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1647/24786112961_0b32385200_h.jpg

As for the TT internal routing TK and Seven are not for it as it weakens the tube.

So windy on Diablo my C60 almost blew out of my hand and into the air.

[Kontact]

A feature that Mosaic offers that is very clean and very few builders offer is a welded front derailleur hanger. Totally frivolous, but once you see one, you want one on all of your ti frames.

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.

[happycampyer]

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.
When were the frames built? If they were made before compact cranks were popular, it’s understandable; if they were made more recently, it’s hard to excuse. Welded hangers are fairly standard on steel frames, so it shouldn’t be too hard to get it right.

[Jeff N.]

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.Good point! If they're long enough for adjustment, no biggie...but if not, you're SOL.

[Kontact]

When were the frames built? If they were made before compact cranks were popular, it’s understandable; if they were made more recently, it’s hard to excuse. Welded hangers are fairly standard on steel frames, so it shouldn’t be too hard to get it right.

They are both from the 90s, but smaller chainrings are a lot older than 'compacts'. My point is that braze ons are neato, but a pain when component fashions change. They are a real affectation when the seat tube is round and metal.

Which everyone will appreciate when 60t cainrings become the next must-have fashion trend.

[Lionel]

I could think of one albeit small improvement: raise the water bottle holder on the seat tube on Lionel´s Spectrum.

Actually, Tom insisted on this a lot for a lower center of gravity. It's another thing I would not change actually. I'm sure raising it would work as well.

[avalonracing]

I love that Spectrum. And if memory serves me the seat tube water bottle was also quite low on my TK designed Merlin Works CR. I loved that bike and thought the low-mount bottle made sense.

[Mikej]

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.

Would it reach? 3 teeth on a 50t really isn't that much lower that a 53t, but its possible the slot wasn't welded in the position to accommodate both. I like the Spectrum, I just don't care for the smooth welds. I know, I know....

[Jeff N.]

Actually, Tom insisted on this a lot for a lower center of gravity. It's another thing I would not change actually. I'm sure raising it would work as well.I remember the drawing of my Spectrum that Tom Emailed me to sign off. I noticed the bottle mounts on the seat tube were really low compared to what I liked. I told him to raise them high enough as to not allow the cage to, in any way, overlap the FD clamp. He did. I like the, as Tom calls them, "pulseless welds". It's different and requires skill. They're not "sanded", like some people think.

[Lionel]

Not sanded indeed it a double pass weld that is quite unique.

[FlashUNC]

Lionel's is maybe the only Ti bike I've wanted seeing in the flesh.

[Lionel]

Lionel's is maybe the only Ti bike I've wanted seeing in the flesh.

Would fit you well but not for sale :)

[simonov]

Which everyone will appreciate when 60t cainrings become the next must-have fashion trend.

But imagine living in a land of nothing but downhills where someone could really make use of a 60t chainring.

[joosttx]

Lionel's is maybe the only Ti bike I've wanted seeing in the flesh.

I consider this an insult.

[mcteague]

I remember the drawing of my Spectrum that Tom Emailed me to sign off. I noticed the bottle mounts on the seat tube were really low compared to what I liked. I told him to raise them high enough as to not allow the cage to, in any way, overlap the FD clamp. He did. I like the, as Tom calls them, "pulseless welds". It's different and requires skill. They're not "sanded", like some people think.

The early frames, that came from Merlin, did have "sanded" welds. You could see all the fine scratch marks all around them. Now that Seven makes his frames a different method is used.

Tim

[Kontact]

The early frames, that came from Merlin, did have "sanded" welds. You could see all the fine scratch marks all around them. Now that Seven makes his frames a different method is used.

Tim

My old Merlin has the double pass "puddle welds" that are very smooth and don't come from any sort of grinding.

[mcteague]

My old Merlin has the double pass "puddle welds" that are very smooth and don't come from any sort of grinding.

Only the Spectrum versions had the welds ground down, along with the internal rear brake cable.

Tim

[Kontact]

Only the Spectrum versions had the welds ground down, along with the internal rear brake cable.

Tim
Maybe. But Lionel seems to be disagreeing with you about how the welds got smooth. Was this a very early frame with the pressed BB?

I don't know why the scratches would still be visible.

[Lionel]

quoting TK
"
- One way or the other, either by a personal fitting here at the Barn or through the mail and/or interwebs, a client and I arrive at a frame/bike design that will work for their body, needs and wants.
- I spend a couple of hours putting those ideas and numbers down using AutoCAD to create a very detailed and most importantly very clear tool to communicate to both ABG and Seven what the frame will be. You've seen versions of these drawings posted on VS in a few places. They are hard to read in their PDF versions simply because they are intended to be used full scale, not in an 8.5*11 format. These drawings are complete in that they describe not only the typical geometry stuff, but they also include build numbers that Seven needs to set up their jigs and tooling, notation leaders for unusual fittings, processes or locations, tube specs. (diameters, lengths, gauges, butt lengths, rocking specs, die formings, etc.). If requested I will also include a layer for cockpit parts and dimensions. I usually don't include elevations since in most cases, Seven already knows what's up.
- I spend another few minutes filling in the materials order form which goes to ABG along with the AutoCAD drawing. ABG's plant manager developed the template for these forms so that the shop guys who actually do the work to create our materials have very clear instructions on a small piece of paper for just what the frame requires. Like the AutoCAD drawing, it gives all tube specs, but it allows the guys on the floor to glance at a sheet instead of going to a full-on drawing. This sheet also includes frame part orders, like for specific dropouts, cable stops, brake bridges, etc.
- After creating the tubing and pulling the small parts off the shelf, ABG ships the "kit" up to Seven. As long as I've remembered to send the the drawing to Seven as well, they then put that in their build Q after doing a very thorough QC on all of the materials.
- Seven fabricates the frame in pretty much the same way that they do with their own frames except that a few of our frame parts require slightly different tooling and that the double pass welding style on our frames looks a bit different than the style they use on theirs.
- Seven ships the frame(s) down to us, invariably in gorgeous raw condition. No grinding, no sanding, just beautiful and dead straight.
- Jeff then preps the frame for my finishing work. He will check alignment again, add tire and chainring dimples if needed and give the entire frame a soft brush finish.
- Then it is up to me to get it done. Some frames simply require a set of decals and baking, others require hours of mind numbing paint work.
"

[Kontact]

There was a time before Merlin did the double pass welds, and that might be when TK was having them ground down.

You can zoom in on this 1988 Merlin headtube:

http://www.bikerecyclery.com/early-merlin-road-titanium-bike-frame-1988-52cm-c-t-black-decals-511-rob-vandermark-built-mint/

Those are not the welds Merlin was doing by 1994 or so.

[FlashUNC]

I consider this an insult.

You kept that gross handlebar tape on the Mosaic way too long.

The camo fork does beat out Lionel's pickiness when it comes to downtube logo paint schemes.

[Lionel]

I remember also a discussion I had with TK, only the head welder at Seven does his frames. Making these welds cannot be done by "anyone"

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5075/14349956522_a3c842a591_o.jpg
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2914/14348195511_eb4586a73b_o.jpg

[zank]

That style weld is from continuously feeding the wire versus dabbing. Or dabbing and then smoothing it with the arc. I'm sure Tim does it with the least amount of heat necessary. It doesn't matter if it's one pass or two.

[Kirk007]

Had same discussion with TK as Lionel. And agree: TK frame + 31.6 and done. The PMP post in this frame looks lovely as well.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180521/2939a8bdeab842397ef6c562fa998026.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Lionel]

That style weld is from continuously feeding the wire versus dabbing. It doesn't matter if it's one pass or two.

Hey Mike.

Looks so freaking cool :) Are you spitting out Ti frames these days ?

[mcteague]

Maybe. But Lionel seems to be disagreeing with you about how the welds got smooth. Was this a very early frame with the pressed BB?

I don't know why the scratches would still be visible.

Yep, it had that "wonderful" press-in BB bearing setup. Again, this was in the early days of the 3-2.5 Ti frames. Merlin made them and Spectrum only had stock sizes. I still had to wait nearly a year for it! I even test rode Tom's personal bike. I was a bit over 6' and Tom, well, let's say he is quite a bit under that. We had the seatpost well above the safe insertion limit to get even close to my saddle height.

The ground down welds were one thing I did not really care for. The scratches looked worse, to me, than the welds. Remember, in those days the welds everyone raves over now were considered an eyesore by some. Tom also clear coated the Ti frames. It made cleaning easier but removed the "buff it back to new" feature of brushed versions. The clear coat was rugged but still showed milky white spots where rocks and such had made an impact.

Tim

[Kontact]

Yep, it had that "wonderful" press-in BB bearing setup. Again, this was in the early days of the 3-2.5 Ti frames. Merlin made them and Spectrum only had stock sizes. I still had to wait nearly a year for it! I even test rode Tom's personal bike. I was a bit over 6' and Tom, well, let's say he is quite a bit under that. We had the seatpost well above the safe insertion limit to get even close to my saddle height.

The ground down welds were one thing I did not really care for. The scratches looked worse, to me, than the welds. Remember, in those days the welds everyone raves over now were considered an eyesore by some. Tom also clear coated the Ti frames. It made cleaning easier but removed the "buff it back to new" feature of brushed versions. The clear coat was rugged but still showed milky white spots where rocks and such had made an impact.

Tim

Yeah, early Merlin welds were pre-puddle and pretty fat looking even by today's standards.