Moots--why are they perceived to be so good?

[paredown]

Not meaning to be a controversialist, but watching a number of PSA threads and hearing the talk over the years makes me think that Moots are held in special reverence among the cog-noscenti on Paceline.

What is it about Moots that lights your fire?

(I can see from pics the impeccable welds and finish, but have never been up close and personal or ridden one.)

I'd love to hear from folks who moved from other makers, and found Moots to be a whole 'nuther ballgame as far as ride/performance...

[oldpotatoe]

Not meaning to be a controversialist, but watching a number of PSA threads and hearing the talk over the years makes me think that Moots are held in special reverence among the cog-noscenti on Paceline.

What is it about Moots that lights your fire?

(I can see from pics the impeccable welds and finish, but have never been up close and personal or ridden one.)

I'd love to hear from folks who moved from other makers, and found Moots to be a whole 'nuther ballgame as far as ride/performance...

-Only titanium(no carbon plugs, tubes or other somewhat marketing driven 'features").
-Great company that 'does one thing and does it well'
-Beautiful frames, great, conservative design, superbly built
-I own 2 and love the ride..

Having said all this, there are many, US based, small and medium(Moots is medium..about 1000 frames per year) frame builders that make really great frames but yes, Moots(been around for what, 35 years?), makes great frames, is a great company...

[earlfoss]

I want a Routt RSL bad. I perceive it as friggin' awesome.

[veloduffer]

Not meaning to be a controversialist, but watching a number of PSA threads and hearing the talk over the years makes me think that Moots are held in special reverence among the cog-noscenti on Paceline.



What is it about Moots that lights your fire?



(I can see from pics the impeccable welds and finish, but have never been up close and personal or ridden one.)



I'd love to hear from folks who moved from other makers, and found Moots to be a whole 'nuther ballgame as far as ride/performance...


I’m going against the grain and found Moots nothing magical. I’ve owned a Vamoots and Psychlo-X and sold both. Good bikes, excellent quality but just didn’t have the “Je ne sais quois”. I’ve owned many a titanium bike (Litespeed Ultimate, Seven Axiom, custom Kish, Lynskey Cooper CX, custom Spectrum) and found them equally good as Moots in terms of riding.

I currently have an Eriksen, which I find more to my liking. I think the geometry and tubing works better for the “feel” that I like. It rides similar to my Parlee Z5 carbon with just the right balance of stiffness and compliance. I’m a pretty standard 56cm, so I don’t need custom other than to suit my riding preferences.

I think Moots are bit overpriced, as their standard price is in line with many custom builders. Any customized option from Moots is a sizable upcharge. Given that you can get a full custom titanium from many excellent builders, I would go that route if I were buying new.

There are many builders that are reasonably priced and you can probably find one local. Other builders that I would consider:

Kish Fabrications (Jim is great to work with)
Strong
DeSalvo
No. 22
Firefly
Spectrum (Tom Kellog)
Eriksen
Seven
And I’m sure others that I’ve missed.





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[oldpotatoe]

I’m going against the grain and found Moots nothing magical. I’ve owned a Vamoots and Psychlo-X and sold both. Good bikes, excellent quality but just didn’t have the “Je ne sais quois”. I’ve owned many a titanium bike (Litespeed Ultimate, Seven Axiom, custom Kish, Lynskey Cooper CX, custom Spectrum) and found them equally good as Moots in terms of riding.

I currently have an Eriksen, which I find more to my liking. I think the geometry and tubing works better for the “feel” that I like. It rides similar to my Parlee Z5 carbon with just the right balance of stiffness and compliance. I’m a pretty standard 56cm, so I don’t need custom other than to suit my riding preferences.

I think Moots are bit overpriced, as their standard price is in line with many custom builders. Any customized option from Moots is a sizable upcharge. Given that you can get a full custom titanium from many excellent builders, I would go that route if I were buying new.

There are many builders that are reasonably priced and you can probably find one local. Other builders that I would consider:

Kish Fabrications (Jim is great to work with)
Strong
DeSalvo
No. 22
Firefly
Spectrum (Tom Kellog)
Eriksen
Seven
And I’m sure others that I’ve missed.





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NOT trying to start a big Moots vs anybody argument but the bolded builders are all consumer direct..whereas Moots(and I think 7) are via a dealer system. So..a small, direct builder, who doesn't deal with an additional margin 'level', it's easy to sell a frame for less $..since the small direct builder is getting a bigger, sometimes double, margin..

[Hilltopperny]

I am on my third Moots and I really liked the two I’ve owned prior to the current RSL. They all road extremely well and are up there with some of my all time favorites, but I also own a Lynskey and a No22 and they are fantastic as well.

I think they hold their value better than other makers and are a bit of a premium because although on the smaller side, they have name recognition. I have a brand new Lynskey R350 frame that I haven’t been able to sell for $700 with shaped and butted tubes, but if it had Moots written on the tubes it’d already have sold at $1,000 more than I’m asking.

Branding and excellent customer service go a long way. You rarely if ever hear anything negative about Moots. Lynskey had a few issues years back and those few reviews out weigh the thousands of other positive ones online I guess, but make no mistake about it they make a fine bike.

My no22 is every bit as nice a ride as the Moots I’ve owned maybe better, but that is subjective. I’d say it’s very similar to the Routt RSL, but with more shaping and a cheaper price tag as you can get a ready made Drifter with awesome components and wheels for about $1700 more than the Routt RSL frameset costs.


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[veloduffer]

NOT trying to start a big Moots vs anybody argument but the bolded builders are all consumer direct..whereas Moots(and I think 7) are via a dealer system. So..a small, direct builder, who doesn't deal with an additional margin 'level', it's easy to sell a frame for less $..since the small direct builder is getting a bigger, sometimes double, margin..


thanks for clarifying - I forgot about the dealer vs direct.

To reiterate, my experience is just my opinion and YMMV. I’m not knocking Moots’ quality or service - it is top notch.



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[RedRider]

We became a dealer because...
- Moots has been the benchmark for titanium framebuilding for over a decade.
- Moots has been focused on titanium from their start and has lead some innovation and techniques. They did not jump to carbon or get on the steel-is-real bandwagon. They are titanium specialists.
- Moots is one of the most professionally run businesses in the industry. Lead times are accurate and frames arrive at our shop in perfect condition ready to build. Communication is excellent. Customer service five star.
- Moots is large enough to run an efficient factory, source the best materials and create new products but small enough to still feel a personal touch.

Yes, there are some things you don't get from them. Mr Moots is the reptile riding the bike on their logo and not the founder still holding a torch after decades. They are not the cheaper alternative. They have a dealer network so you can't buy direct or at a discount. Even on the second hand market Moots frames hold value.

We chose to become a Moots dealer and have been very happy they chose to partner with us. We do deal with other titanium builders and they each have their advantages.

Yes, there are other alternatives. Many good ones have been mentioned earlier but I would never group all of them together for comparison.

[Climb01742]

For years, a friend of mine who is a very serious, dedicated rider rode an IF ti frame. He loved it. But he was involved in a crash with a car and his much-loved IF didn't survive. Luckily my pal was a-ok. He did lots of research on a replacement frame. A Moots dealer nearby had a Vamoots demo frame in his size. Rode it, loved it, bought it. It seems like every time he rides it, he digs it more. His IF gave him a high bar, but the Moots is surpassing it. But that test ride was key. He was really agonizing while searching for a replacement. What's hard about custom is, no demo rides. With Moots you can. The demo ride really helped my friend.

[dbnm]

I own a 2015 Moots RSL. I bought it off of ebay for a terrific price.

Before buying it, I researched a bit and Moots always came out high on my list.

There are other "sexier" brands but Moots has a really great reputation for build quality and customer service.

Lynskey, unfortunately for them, always came out on the bottom of my list. The biggest problem I see is they dump lots of bikes on eBay at super low prices.

If I were buying another Ti bike right now, I'd probably buy another Moots but must admit, Mosaic is doing some amazing work now too.

[nmrt]

I own a Moots MootoX RSL. Love the bike!
But here's the thing -- I've owned Merlin, Seven, Black Sheep, Dean, and DeSalvo Ti bikes as well. All equally as good.

So, in summation -- Moots make a great bike. But so do many others.

[rnhood]

I think Moots has the most consistent high quality construction in the Ti bike sector. Whether a mountain bike, road bike, top end or bottom end, they all look perfectly executed and finished.

[djg21]

I’m going against the grain and found Moots nothing magical. I’ve owned a Vamoots and Psychlo-X and sold both. Good bikes, excellent quality but just didn’t have the “Je ne sais quois”. I’ve owned many a titanium bike (Litespeed Ultimate, Seven Axiom, custom Kish, Lynskey Cooper CX, custom Spectrum) and found them equally good as Moots in terms of riding.

I currently have an Eriksen, which I find more to my liking. I think the geometry and tubing works better for the “feel” that I like. It rides similar to my Parlee Z5 carbon with just the right balance of stiffness and compliance. I’m a pretty standard 56cm, so I don’t need custom other than to suit my riding preferences.

I think Moots are bit overpriced, as their standard price is in line with many custom builders. Any customized option from Moots is a sizable upcharge. Given that you can get a full custom titanium from many excellent builders, I would go that route if I were buying new.

There are many builders that are reasonably priced and you can probably find one local. Other builders that I would consider:

Kish Fabrications (Jim is great to work with)
Strong
DeSalvo
No. 22
Firefly
Spectrum (Tom Kellog)
Eriksen
Seven
And I’m sure others that I’ve missed.





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Many people would pay the premium to have a name like “Moots” or “Serotta” on the downtube when there are a lot of great bikes being built by other companies/builders that are at least as equally good and probably less expensive, but may not have as much cache or be as prestigious from the perspective of some.

[NYCfixie]

I have owned a few Lynskeys over the years (R230, Sportive, CooperCX, Sportive Disc, R255 (given to my sister-in-law), and another R255 (sold before I built it)) and I think they are fine. My issue is that there was always something that made them just not right.
R230 - headtube not reamed correctly
Sportive - no issues
CooperCX - came filthy with a piece of metal bouncing around in one of the stays
Sportive Disc - ISO mounts needed to be filed down to get things to line up correctly
R255 - spec'ed 43mm rake fork with 71.5 headtube on Small size when 50mm rake was correct

They use non-USA made Ti to keeps costs lower. They were known to undercut dealers until they finally went direct only. They also tend to push you into a new more expensive frame for warranty issues rather than just fix the frame that has an issue (they usually fix it and dump it in the loft or on eBay). I think the biggest issue is that they probably overbuild production runs and then dump extra stock at crazy low prices during the off season. They always seem to be running a "sale". They follow the sales model of having unrealistic MSRP that nobody actually pays because there is always a "sale".

I really like Moots and probably would have got one after I got rid of all my Lynkey's but for the same price as a Moots I could have got a custom IF or Seven. I went with Seven.

I think the great thing about Moots is that they are stock and hold value so you can always sell them. For better or worse, I will never be able to sell my custom Seven but the hope is that it is so perfect for me I will never want to sell it



...Lynskey, unfortunately for them, always came out on the bottom of my list. The biggest problem I see is they dump lots of bikes on eBay at super low prices.



...I also own a Lynskey and a No22 and they are fantastic as well...

...I have a brand new Lynskey R350 frame that I haven’t been able to sell for $700 with shaped and butted tubes, but if it had Moots written on the tubes it’d already have sold at $1,000 more than I’m asking...

...Lynskey had a few issues years back and those few reviews out weigh the thousands of other positive ones online I guess, but make no mistake about it they make a fine bike...

[SoCalSteve]

So, this is going to sound a bit crazy coming from someone who always believed my Ottrott is-was the best riding bike, bar none.

I just got done riding it about 1,500 miles over the last few months and put it in storage and re-built my Moots RSL with ETap and a set of Reynolds 45’s. ( it’s pretty much the same set up as my Ottrott).

I must say after not riding the Moots for a couple years and coming off my all time favorite bike, I am thoroughly impressed with the Moots ( a bit surprised how much-pleasantly). It rides just as nicely as my Ottrott, handles a bit better and people stop me all the time to pay it compliments.

Aesthetically speaking, sometimes less is more. And with the ETap setup, it’s even cleaner looking.

[spinarelli]

A few years ago I waned a Ti bike. I did as much research as I could and moots was tied on top with a couple others. Dug a little deeper in Moots’ history and was led to Kent Eriksen. He built and ran the company for 20 years. So, it only made sense to get an Eriksen and not a Moots. I found Eriksen had everything moots offered plus the individual attention of a custom frame. Also, his knowledge and experience with bike fit and Ti marterials is second to none. Plus having Brad Bingham weld the frames is a bonus. Have you seen his stack of dimes?
I never liked having the same bike as my neighbors. I like that there are way less Eriksens out there then moots. If you’re gonna spend that kind of money on a frame I like having the custom touch that only a small shop, but you can’t go wrong with either one.


I think Moots has the most consistent high quality construction in the Ti bike sector. Whether a mountain bike, road bike, top end or bottom end, they all look perfectly executed and finished.

[Clean39T]

So, this is going to sound a bit crazy coming from someone who always believed my Ottrott is-was the best riding bike, bar none.



I just got done riding it about 1,500 miles over the last few months and put it in storage and re-built my Moots RSL with ETap and a set of Reynolds 45’s. ( it’s pretty much the same set up as my Ottrott).



I must say after not riding the Moots for a couple years and coming off my all time favorite bike, I am thoroughly impressed with the Moots ( a bit surprised how much-pleasantly). It rides just as nicely as my Ottrott, handles a bit better and people stop me all the time to pay it compliments.



Aesthetically speaking, sometimes less is more. And with the ETap setup, it’s even cleaner looking.


There goes my hopes you might be willing to sell it sometime soon ;)

[Clean39T]

Moots’ customer service sets the bar.

They’ve never produced a bike that didn’t “work” or was done just for marketing (carbon stays for instance, as noted above).

They hold their value because of their reputation and the real/perceived durability of well-built titanium.

I’m not a fan of the amount of slope to the TT of the newer RSLs in my gigantor size, but that’s the closest I can get to a complaint...and is easily fixed by going custom from them.

If anyone has a 62 Vamoots they want to move, holler!

Otherwise, top of my list is a Vamoots custom: level TT, set up for eTap hydro, clearance for 32s w fenders, and their standard road geometry from the late ‘00s.

I may still choose to get that from DeSalvo or Hampsten or Potts or Holland, but not because anything is wrong with the Moots offering, just because...fun, different, etc.

[Clean39T]

Oh, and the Moots shop in Portland is excellent! Cyclepath - worth a visit if you’re in town...

[commonguy001]

I personally just really love how mine have ridden. I have a older Vamoots that’s seen a ton of miles and even took a shot from a Buick in 2008. Even with a dinged seat stay it rides great. Now my main roadie is a 14 Vamoots and while a lot different than the older version is every bit as enjoyable to ride. Probably never selling the 14 and the older one isn’t really worth much dinged up.

For me they’ve both been daily usage bikes and while I’ve owned and still own others, the Moots Vamoots have been my favorites.

[longlist]

i tried a vamoots and a routt from a local store. i didnt like them. they felt small. they fit them up to me so they were supposed to be my size. but i didnt think they were as amazing as everyone said. and the looks of them was kind of boring. the one bike with the special dropouts, those are not very pretty looking.

[ThasFACE]

Haven't read this thread in detail, so it's probably already been said, but a not insignificant influence here is the aesthetic. They usually look pretty damn sharp.

That said, I love Ti stuff and have twice opted to go with framesets from TK/Spectrum over Moots et al.

[SoCalSteve]

There goes my hopes you might be willing to sell it sometime soon ;)

I thought of you the other day on my ride...:beer:

[cadence90]

Moots are perceived to be so good because, after decades of proof, they in fact are so good.

Constant improvement, never "slaves to fashion", always maintaining their original credo...not very easy to do so well, so consistently, for so long.
.

[R3awak3n]

I bet a custom ti bike is great and all but how awesome is it that you can just order one and you know it is going to be a fantastic bike.


I never had one but would love one, good looking bikes, welds are perfection. They are not cheap but you get what you pay for

[Fishbike]

Clear identity

[Hilltopperny]

i tried a vamoots and a routt from a local store. i didnt like them. they felt small. they fit them up to me so they were supposed to be my size. but i didnt think they were as amazing as everyone said. and the looks of them was kind of boring. the one bike with the special dropouts, those are not very pretty looking.



I sized up on both my Routt and Vamoots RSL. I typically ride 54cm and opted to buy 55 in both. Not sure what others think, but I liked the stack height better on the 55cm and the reach was only a couple of mm different.


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[Clean39T]

I thought of you the other day on my ride...:beer:


I’m very happy with how my stable is shaping up, but I’ll try to keep a little space just in case you move into a tiny-house :)

[GonaSovereign]

NOT trying to start a big Moots vs anybody argument but the bolded builders are all consumer direct..whereas Moots(and I think 7) are via a dealer system. So..a small, direct builder, who doesn't deal with an additional margin 'level', it's easy to sell a frame for less $..since the small direct builder is getting a bigger, sometimes double, margin..

No22 sells through dealers where they have them.

[choke]

Not meaning to be a controversialist, but watching a number of PSA threads and hearing the talk over the years makes me think that Moots are held in special reverence among the cog-noscenti on Paceline.

What is it about Moots that lights your fire?Don't feel alone, I have often wondered the same thing.

By all accounts Moots makes a great product. There was also a time when Moots was at the leading edge of Ti design but IMO that has passed. I've never ridden one but I've seen them and most other Ti makers up close and to me there's not a lot of difference aesthetically at least among the high end.

For the amount of money that a Ti frame costs* it's hard for me to see paying more or less the same price for a stock frame as opposed to getting a custom that is done just like I want. I guess I might consider a Moots if they made a frame that was like I desire....but that hasn't happened in many years. If I was to order a Ti frame today I don't think Moots would make my top 10 list, though to be honest there are only about 3-4 makers that I would look at anyway.

*I do understand the cost of dealer vs direct but regardless of the why the fact is that the cost of a stock frame is approximately equal to a full custom.

[SoCalSteve]

I’m very happy with how my stable is shaping up, but I’ll try to keep a little space just in case you move into a tiny-house :)

Not sure we could go much smaller with me, my wife ( with a large wardrobe ) a 10lb puppy, 2 cats, many vintage French art deco posters and a couple of bikes. Not even sure where all my other bikes are. I need to put a gps tracker on them...:eek:

[Matthew]

I'm a very happy owner of two Moots. 2009 Compact and a 2002 Rigormootis MTB. Both are great bikes. The Compact is probably the best road bike I've owned. And I've owned a handful over the years: A few Trek OCLV'S, Serotta Atlanta, Specialized M2, Serotta Concours, and currently a Meivici, and a Colnago EPS. I love all three current rides but if I could only keep one it would likely be the Moots. Just does everything well. And as others have said, just great people working there. And love the look and craftsmanship. Top notch all around bike and company in my opinion. Matt

[texbike]

I'm a very happy owner of two Moots. 2009 Compact and a 2002 Rigormootis MTB. Both are great bikes. The Compact is probably the best road bike I've owned. And I've owned a handful over the years: A few Trek OCLV'S, Serotta Atlanta, Specialized M2, Serotta Concours, and currently a Meivici, and a Colnago EPS. I love all three current rides but if I could only keep one it would likely be the Moots. Just does everything well. And as others have said, just great people working there. And love the look and craftsmanship. Top notch all around bike and company in my opinion. Matt

^ I feel the same way. I've been riding for more than 25 years and have had 70ish bikes in that time. The Vamoots is my favorite out of them all. It isn't "the best" at any one thing, but it is a nice all-rounder and the ride and build quality are hard to beat. To Matthew's point above, it would be the one that I would keep if I could only have one bike. I've had it for 10 years now and don't see it going anywhere.

Texbike

[Kirk007]

Too many people love them to question the quality but they've never done anything for me. I don't like the finish, never had so if I got one it would have to be painted. And the standard geometry in big frames doesn't do it for me.

[oldpotatoe]

i tried a vamoots and a routt from a local store. i didnt like them. they felt small. they fit them up to me so they were supposed to be my size. but i didnt think they were as amazing as everyone said. and the looks of them was kind of boring. the one bike with the special dropouts, those are not very pretty looking.

Then they were..bike fit isn't an exact science, nothing etched in stone and brought down from a mountain top.

[Tony]

I have owned a few Lynskeys over the years (R230, Sportive, CooperCX, Sportive Disc, R255 (given to my sister-in-law), and another R255 (sold before I built it)) and I think they are fine. My issue is that there was always something that made them just not right.
R230 - headtube not reamed correctly
Sportive - no issues
CooperCX - came filthy with a piece of metal bouncing around in one of the stays
Sportive Disc - ISO mounts needed to be filed down to get things to line up correctly
R255 - spec'ed 43mm rake fork with 71.5 headtube on Small size when 50mm rake was correct

They use non-USA made Ti to keeps costs lower. They were known to undercut dealers until they finally went direct only. They also tend to push you into a new more expensive frame for warranty issues rather than just fix the frame that has an issue (they usually fix it and dump it in the loft or on eBay). I think the biggest issue is that they probably overbuild production runs and then dump extra stock at crazy low prices during the off season. They always seem to be running a "sale". They follow the sales model of having unrealistic MSRP that nobody actually pays because there is always a "sale".

I like to add that their customer service is awful!
Would not purchase another bike from them.

[longlist]

i think the reason they felt small is i ride straight top tubes. these ones dropped down. i tried a giant once that felt the same way and it dropped down.

[fa63]

I haven't had a chance to own one yet; they seem to pop up when I am not ready and vice versa, and I am too cheap to buy one new. But having taken a tour of their factory, I have to say that I was very impressed with the process and the craftsmanship. I think they tend to hold their value well because the basic recipe hasn't changed much over the years.