Boyd vs Rapha

[m4rk540]

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4644/bespoked-bike-show-2018-photos#18

When I consult on high end builds, the only area where there's wiggle room in the price to performance calculus is wheels. In other words, there are tens of wheels while there are only 3 groupset options. I've become a fan of Boyd's offerings and believe they're ideal for most top of the line machines. But, 9 out of 10x, the client wants ENVE or Lightweight. Part of it is perceived prestige but most of it is the hand made myth; they think Boyds are open-mold, rebadged junk. And, yet, these riders don't hesitate to purchase every item in the Rapha line. Neither Boyd nor Rapha own a factory. But both devote resources to produce a high level of design and own their intellectual property.

How much of a premium do you place on products designed and produced by the same concern? Or more importantly, why are carbon wheels so overpriced?

[Lanternrouge]

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4644/bespoked-bike-show-2018-photos#18

How much of a premium do you place on products designed and produced by the same concern? Or more importantly, why are carbon wheels so overpriced?

I think these are two different issues. In terms of frames, pretty much everything I regularly ride was made by the company whose name is on the frame. That said, to me the real issue is that whoever's name is on something knows enough to be able to vouch for the quality of the product.

I can't speak too much to the pricing structure of carbon wheels, but I think part of the cost of Zipps and Enves is R&D and higher marketing costs. I think there is also a snob factor involved as well. When we are talking Lightweights, it's different ball game altogether.

For me, the snob factor is higher on frames versus wheels. I think there is only one brand of frame not made in house that appeals to me right now, but I'd have no hesitation about buying Boyds even though they don't make the rims in house.

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4644/bespoked-bike-show-2018-photos#18

When I consult on high end builds, the only area where there's wiggle room in the price to performance calculus is wheels. In other words, there are tens of wheels while there are only 3 groupset options. I've become a fan of Boyd's offerings and believe they're ideal for most top of the line machines. But, 9 out of 10x, the client wants ENVE or Lightweight. Part of it is perceived prestige but most of it is the hand made myth; they think Boyds are open-mold, rebadged junk. And, yet, these riders don't hesitate to purchase every item in the Rapha line. Neither Boyd nor Rapha own a factory. But both devote resources to produce a high level of design and own their intellectual property.

How much of a premium do you place on products designed and produced by the same concern? Or more importantly, why are carbon wheels so overpriced?

they think Boyds are open-mold, rebadged junk

It’s a shame anybody thinks these and a lot of other ‘private label’ wheel components, are junk....because their reputation and very existence relies on them not being ‘junk’...

But look around....bike stuff is prestige, ‘look at me’, coffee shop points, marketeer driven, name recognition. Plenty of ‘name brand’ products actually turn out to be ‘junk’, Zipp comes to mind. But it’s all about the name on the bike gadget, not actual performance, lotsa times. I remember we couldn’t give Ritchey tires away...even tho essentially same as Vittoria, both made in same factory in Thailand...

BTW, my Rapha stuff is the best bikie clothes I own. AND like many ‘name brand’ carbon frames....lotsa bike clothes are made by a few bike clothes manufacturers, like MOA, like Giant( Asian frame maker, not ‘Giant’...make bunches of carbon frames.

[ergott]

In my experience with carbon rims, price doesn't always follow the same curve as quality. Don't want to get into brand bashing or whatnot, but do inspect wheels you purchase. With clinchers look at the bead area for any voids or inconsistencies in the hook. Look for sharp edges. Look under the rim strip. It doesn't take a trained eye to spot things that look spotty. I've seen rims from less expensive companies that are flawless and very clean carbon layup.

[adub]

High-end Road cycling is more akin to the fashion industry than anything else.

[colker]

High-end Road cycling is more akin to the fashion industry than anything else.

Fashion geeks know it is about image. They don´t pretend it´s about anything else.

[pasadena]

Enve is more expensive because they choose to make everything in the USA.costs are higher.
There is a certain pride in that fact for some customers, and they enjoy a high mark reputation for quality.

If you like Boyd, simply buy Boyd.
Base each brand and product on its own merits.

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4644/bespoked-bike-show-2018-photos#18

When I consult on high end builds, the only area where there's wiggle room in the price to performance calculus is wheels. In other words, there are tens of wheels while there are only 3 groupset options. I've become a fan of Boyd's offerings and believe they're ideal for most top of the line machines. But, 9 out of 10x, the client wants ENVE or Lightweight. Part of it is perceived prestige but most of it is the hand made myth; they think Boyds are open-mold, rebadged junk. And, yet, these riders don't hesitate to purchase every item in the Rapha line. Neither Boyd nor Rapha own a factory. But both devote resources to produce a high level of design and own their intellectual property.

How much of a premium do you place on products designed and produced by the same concern? Or more importantly, why are carbon wheels so overpriced?

[dbnm]

Only certain Enve products are made in the US. Not everything.

[happycampyer]

Only certain Enve products are made in the US. Not everything.
I was going to say the same thing, but was going to note that, unless I’m mistaken, the wheel manufacturing is all done in the US. I believe that handlebars, stems and seatposts are all made offshore. The now discontinued 1.0 fork used to be made in the US. I would be surprised if any of the current forks are made in the US.

That said, I’m still not sure what this thread is really about (but that can be said about the majority of threads these days on the paceline).

[saab2000]

Why invoke Rapha? Why does anyone care if someone else rides ENVE or wears Rapha instead of quality products that cost less?

If someone chooses to buy a premium product is that not their prerogative? Do the haters walk around parking lots asking Acura or Lexus owners why they didn't just get a Honda or Toyota for 40% less money?

These threads referencing Rapha are tiresome.

[colker]

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4644/bespoked-bike-show-2018-photos#18

When I consult on high end builds, the only area where there's wiggle room in the price to performance calculus is wheels. In other words, there are tens of wheels while there are only 3 groupset options. I've become a fan of Boyd's offerings and believe they're ideal for most top of the line machines. But, 9 out of 10x, the client wants ENVE or Lightweight. Part of it is perceived prestige but most of it is the hand made myth; they think Boyds are open-mold, rebadged junk. And, yet, these riders don't hesitate to purchase every item in the Rapha line. Neither Boyd nor Rapha own a factory. But both devote resources to produce a high level of design and own their intellectual property.

How much of a premium do you place on products designed and produced by the same concern? Or more importantly, why are carbon wheels so overpriced?

Does Rapha now sell hand made carbon wheels? Where can i see Boyd´s line of bibs?

[doomridesout]

Agree that this analogy doesn't make sense.

Boyd v. Enve/Zipp- to some extent you are getting something like a fungible commodity- a toroidal carbon rim in a given depth with CX-Ray spokes to a nice hub (unless you get Zipp, in which case the hubs suck). Quality control differences, as noted above, will make these commodities non-fungible but assuming no surprises in manufacture, they'll likely perform and ride very close to the same. Not sure why people still insist on prestige brands when someone like Boyd is willing to step in and provide QC, warranty, and a phone number to call for a lower price for a functional object like wheels.

Rapha is also a fungible commodity to the extent a jersey's got a torso, a zipper, and two sleeves, but the aesthetic dimension of fashion is at least 70-80% of the appeal. Certain brands that have copied Rapha's minimalist aesthetic might be semi-fungible with Rapha. Also, spending big bucks on clothes is an affluence signaling move which is one of the things that distinguishes fashion from clothes.

[dbnm]

Why does anyone care what bike I ride or what kit I wear?

[oldpotatoe]

Agree that this analogy doesn't make sense.

[QUOTE]Boyd v. Enve/Zipp- to some extent you are getting something like a fungible commodity

‘Fungible commodity’, I love that term...have no idea what it means but ‘fungible’...:)

[m4rk540]

Why invoke Rapha? Why does anyone care if someone else rides ENVE or wears Rapha instead of quality products that cost less?

If someone chooses to buy a premium product is that not their prerogative? Do the haters walk around parking lots asking Acura or Lexus owners why they didn't just get a Honda or Toyota for 40% less money?

These threads referencing Rapha are tiresome.

I was just curious about "snobism" in cycling. I believe Boyd sells a great product; I believe Rapha sells a great product. But, Lightweight makes a great product; Sportful makes a great product.

The analogy is this; both Boyd and Rapha can be perceived as open mold or "private label." However, most don't apply the "private label" discount to Rapha. No biggie.

[sparky33]

internal nipples. Ugh, never again.
No amount of ad copy will change my mind.

[happycampyer]

I was just curious about "snobism" in cycling. I believe Boyd sells a great product; I believe Rapha sells a great product. But, Lightweight makes a great product; Sportful makes a great product.

The analogy is this; both Boyd and Rapha can be perceived as open mold or "private label." However, most don't apply the "private label" discount to Rapha. No biggie.I don’t think that that analogy holds. For me:

Enve : Boyd
Rapha : Road Holland

Not the best analogy since Road Holland went out of business, but you get the idea. But comparing wheels (or other equipment) to clothing is a bit of apples to oranges. If your clothing fails (seams tear, fabric discolors, etc.), it’s no big deal. If your equipment fails, it’s another matter.

One of the things one gets (or one expects to get) from a premium equipment manufacturer is quality design, testing, manufacturing, quality control, etc. As we know, this isn’t always the case, but the general principal holds. Mavic probably spends more on testing than all of the small wheel manufacturers combined.

Of course, there are technical and functional aspects of clothing, too. The more technical fabrics (breathability, wicking, stretch, compression, spf, etc.) cost more than less technical fabrics. But design/fashion is a big component.

[m4rk540]

I don’t think that that analogy holds. For me:

Enve : Boyd
Rapha : Road Holland

Not the best analogy since Road Holland went out of business, but you get the idea. But comparing wheels (or other equipment) to clothing is a bit of apples to oranges. If your clothing fails (seams tear, fabric discolors, etc.), it’s no big deal. If your equipment fails, it’s another matter.





Not really comparing equipment but manufacturing and production. That and how it's perceived. In other words, when does a company mature to the point where people don't care if it's just a marketing entity or something like Ford, which only assembles things these days.

[jlwdm]

There can be comfort buying from a large company with greater resources. Smaller companies can disappear more easily.

I think there is as much snobbism in riding Boyd wheels as there is with many of the big name wheel companies. It is cool to have something most other riders have never heard of. I have Zipp carbon wheels but I have many possessions that are not so common. Custom frames would be an example.

Jeff

[ergott]

I was just curious about "snobism" in cycling. I believe Boyd sells a great product; I believe Rapha sells a great product. But, Lightweight makes a great product; Sportful makes a great product.

The analogy is this; both Boyd and Rapha can be perceived as open mold or "private label." However, most don't apply the "private label" discount to Rapha. No biggie.

But that's not true. Boyd rims are not open mold. They are specced buy Boyd and he oversees production. In a way that's just like Rapha. They have factories oversees, but you are getting products that are designed and built according to the standards of the business. Boyd puts in the time and effort to insure you are getting the product he wants to sell.

[colker]

Not really comparing equipment but manufacturing and production. That and how it's perceived. In other words, when does a company mature to the point where people don't care if it's just a marketing entity or something like Ford, which only assembles things these days.

As long as the product is good and it´s not made by enslaved children i am ok w/it.
It´s capitalism, economy of scale, global market and i don´t need Gepetto building every single bike part or piece of cloth i own by his own hand.