should you bump?

[ivanooze]

I've heard mixed reviews from people regarding whether or not bumping is a good idea while in a bike race.

-I personally think it's a great skill to learn how to receive and give bumps as it teaches you to keep calm under pressure and increases confidence and handling during a race, or at least that's the way i see it.

-Other people think that bumping is completely unnecessary and dangerous.
-I do agree that it can be dangerous if you do it to a rider that doesn't know how to react to being bumped or even to someone not expecting to be bumped I.E. https://vimeo.com/221195646 (watch the last 1.5 minutes of the video)

-however, the way that racing has evolved over the years, with increases in speed and aggression as well as having such a balls out commitment to wanting to win (oh wait, this type of bike racing has been around for decades), especially if this is how you make a living, then you do whatever it takes to want to win, even if that means getting physical.

-Me personally, i use bumping as a tactic to create space when someone is trying to close in on my line or sometimes to even take a different line when the line i'm currently on is useless.

thoughts?

[chazzwazzer]

I'd argue the goal is to make room, not contact. We bump some on the track, but it's not a hit. Telegraph your intent and make the other guy uncomfortable in his space, but don't actually try to connect with him. Just be ready for it if it happens. That is a good skill.

Trying to connect with someone is a great way to be an asshole like the one in the video (who had no line to protect, was not threatened by the guy in front, and slowed before deliberately moving up to hit the guy in front, even though he had a clear pass to the right). The guy in front may have made a lame block, but in no way was that a bump. He might as well have decked the guy. Something something masters serious business.

[Steve in SLO]

Back in the day (late 70s), our team training included bumping and leaning as an integral part of our learning to race. Knowing how to manage contact in a race saves crashes. As a conscious tactic, it can be quite effective in moving through a pack, but dangerous if your contactee doesn't have adequate experience or training.
So I guess "use with caution" would be my reply.

[Brett.kent]

I've heard mixed reviews from people regarding whether or not bumping is a good idea while in a bike race.



-I personally think it's a great skill to learn how to receive and give bumps as it teaches you to keep calm under pressure and increases confidence and handling during a race, or at least that's the way i see it.



-Other people think that bumping is completely unnecessary and dangerous.

-I do agree that it can be dangerous if you do it to a rider that doesn't know how to react to being bumped or even to someone not expecting to be bumped I.E. https://vimeo.com/221195646 (watch the last 1.5 minutes of the video)



-however, the way that racing has evolved over the years, with increases in speed and aggression as well as having such a balls out commitment to wanting to win (oh wait, this type of bike racing has been around for decades), especially if this is how you make a living, then you do whatever it takes to want to win, even if that means getting physical.



-Me personally, i use bumping as a tactic to create space when someone is trying to close in on my line or sometimes to even take a different line when the line i'm currently on is useless.



thoughts?



That is an outright shoulder charge in that video, a little bump for position is different.


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[fogrider]

watching it in slow motion, it looks like the guy intentionally knocked the guy down. in real time, the guy from behind was drafting and the guy in front slows, and the guy from behind runs up on right. watch it from about 30 seconds earlier, the guy up front rolls all over the road, left side to right side running the most efficient line. The guy in front stands and powers out of the corners, then it looks like he runs out of gas. He floats to the right and coast. but he doesn't move over enough for a lane. I mean this is a race...if you're going hard, and then sit up, you should expect guys to over take. That said, the guy in the back was wheel sucking, sat on his wheel for quite a while, without take a pull.

[SlowPokePete]

...here I thought this was gonna be another "classifieds" debate.

SPP

[Peter P.]

To me, bumping is unintentional contact. Anything else is malicious.

Using bumping to make room or move riders out of the way so you can move up; wrong. That's how people crash. Causing crashes is unacceptable.

Yes; it's a good skill to have as in, not being afraid to unintentionally touch or be touched in a race or group ride without panicking.

[longlist]

Not a racer here, but I do know someone who was in that race and knows the guy who caused that fall. The guy is infamous for that kind of thing and has caused more than few accidents by his tactics. Supposedly there was a petition with the bike race and the people in charge to ban him. I would have to ask but I believe they did cause of this. The video helped. The rider who went down got really hurt if i remember right. That doesn't seem like a legal kind of move.

[longlist]

Here is a link to things

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/felony-battery/

[HenryA]

Disqualified, banned from racing and ass whipped are the three things that first come to mind. All three together would not be too much.

[bigbill]

Bumping is something that happens, it shouldn't be something that is initiated. An experienced racer can take a bump and keep on going. An inexperienced rider will likely lose his line and possibly take down others or himself.

I went to the Walden school back in the early 90's and we did a drill where we had to ride through a slalom of plungers with a rider on either side constantly bumping. What we were taught is to anticipate the hit by being loose and leaning towards it so it merely knocks the rider back on the bike.

[GregL]

What we were taught is to anticipate the hit by being loose and leaning towards it so it merely knocks the rider back on the bike.
^^^Same here. Knowing how to handle the contact within a racing/training pack is an essential skill. Every racing clinic that I have attended as a student or instructor included bump drills. It can even come in handy during social rides. A few years back, my wife and I participated in a fundraising ride where all the riders stayed together for a century. One rider went off his line and bumped into me. I held my line and held him up until he regained his composure and got his balance back. He was so happy to avoid a potential crash that he spent the rest of the day as my new best friend :)

Conversely, aggressively bumping to move up in a pack is unacceptable. Anyone doing this should be reported to the officials and banned.

Greg

[ultraman6970]

This... the other detail is that those are just sunday cat 3 or 5 riders, one looked older than I'm, and at that level you have to leave all the BS and unnecessary stuff at home with your wife or your dog.

Dude screwed up, the bump was a payback IMO. Not that the dude will get the hot chick or be called for a professional team for wining that race you know.

That is an outright shoulder charge in that video, a little bump for position is different.


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[FlashUNC]

Bumps happen and you should know how to handle contact in a group.

But using it to clear the way? Dangerous and unacceptable.

[benb]

Bumping happens and there shouldn't even be any debate that you need to learn how to deal with it but we've already had a thread about this stupid video already and that wasn't a "bump" it was someone trying to deliberately take someone else out and put them in the hospital.

That video totally sums up why I have absolutely no desire to have anything do with that kind of masters racing.

Dead flat boring course with repeated laps with curbs and dangerous stuff everywhere and a bunch of overweight guys who would probably have been dropped on the first hill. Once they're dropped things thin out and everything gets safer. But instead there's nothing challenging on the course so everyone sticks together and it looks like most of the time there aren't even any attacks so everyone just gets frustrated and delusional about their ability to win. Probably lots of guys sprinting to get 25th place and such at the end and similar bad risk:reward choices. This is stuff you're supposed to do in your teens/early twenties and then learn how to race and not end up racing with guys like this.

Why is that even a fun thing to do on your bike when you could go for an actual interesting ride and skip the danger and personalities? Skip that scene and you won't have to worry about getting bumped.

[Veloo]

Ha! Me too.

...here I thought this was gonna be another "classifieds" debate.

SPP

[unterhausen]

Bumps are for when you are stuck in a situation and the recipient of the bump is not really aware. And it's not the sort of thing you do by dropping your shoulder and ramming it up into them. Intentionally riding into a space when there is no room is not the time or place for a bump. If the bumper had been to the left of the bumpee and the bumpee had gone left on him, that is the time for a bump.

the victim's rear wheel slid out in such a way that I don't think he really had an opportunity to lean back into that. And it was a very quick hit, not the same as a bump. He chose to ride into that hole, he should have gone around to the right. So no, he shouldn't have bumped. It was retribution for the guy in front not holding his line previous to that. When I raced on the east coast, this type of riding would have been taken care of the old fashioned way. If a guy like that finds himself not finishing with the group on every group ride and race, he either changes his ways or starts going after Strava KOMS.

I might have yelled at the guy in front to hold his line, he was a little too wobbly for my tastes. It certainly didn't deserve a trip to the ICU

[KarlC]

That is an outright shoulder charge in that video, a little bump for position is different.


Disqualified, banned from racing and ass whipped are the three things that first come to mind. All three together would not be too much.


Bumps happen and you should know how to handle contact in a group.

But using it to clear the way? Dangerous and unacceptable.

Why are we calling that move a bump, thats NOT a bump, its a clear shoulder charge right at the other riders arm.

That guy had NO call for that Dangerous and unacceptable shoulder charge and should be Disqualified, banned from racing and ass whipped.

Watch it again and right before it happens you can see #729 back away from him, knowing he is a Dangerous rider.

.

[fignon's barber]

-however, the way that racing has evolved over the years, with increases in speed and aggression as well as having such a balls out commitment to wanting to win (oh wait, this type of bike racing has been around for decades), especially if this is how you make a living, then you do whatever it takes to want to win, even if that means getting physical.

-Me personally, i use bumping as a tactic to create space when someone is trying to close in on my line or sometimes to even take a different line when the line i'm currently on is useless.

thoughts?


I think you've been watching too many Pro Tour videos. While the glory of winning the Tour De Subdivision crit cannot be overstated, anyone who starts throwing shoulders/head/elbows in an amateur race is a jackass. You need to be able to handle your bike when you encounter idiots ( which the guy who fell could not do). That whole sequence was pathetic. The guy overlaps wheels and almost takes the group down, then tries to squeeze into the 6 inch gap between the curb and the other guy, resulting in a crash. Nice. All it takes is one idiot to cause a lot of damage in a race.

[ergott]

If your paycheck doesn't depend on your race results please calm down. Bumping for a $5 prime or upping to Cat 3 is beyond irresponsible. People have other lives to consider.

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[Drmojo]

...here I thought this was gonna be another "classifieds" debate.

SPP
yeah that's what she said....

[11.4]

First, bumping for placings has a place in elite racing but not in your weekly cat 4 club events. Elite riders are used to it and handle it just fine, whether they want to give way or not. They also understand that the idea is that everyone stays upright and sometimes someone bumps to avoid becoming a crash that the bumpee didn't recognize. Everybody crowds turns, for example, or has to avoid road furniture, and those instances often call for bumping so you don't start a crash. In the finishing sprint, it's just part of sprinting and positioning, especially when there's a team leadout and someone from another team inserted themselves into your leadout to get a free ride to the front. Bumping keeps it honest. It's just how racing works.

Second, there's good and bad bumping technique. You don't just go whack some guy, and you never chop his front wheel. It's about using shoulders to move someone aside and that's almost impossible to do violently. I always teach it in track classes and coach it at length. If you use your wrists or forearms, you'll inevitably turn your bars and make it an uncontrolled bump or lose control and crash. Shouldering isn't always bumping, and bumping isn't always shouldering. Similarly, using your hips can keep someone off you if you're getting crowded and it's a stable move. Taking your hand off the bars is an absolute last resort and makes you inherently unstable and a crash instigator because you yourself will go down. I used to ride at Alpenrose a fair bit, which has irregular turns, steep banking, and a banking that bleeds a lot of speed if you're in a field. It means a group of riders (in a keirin, for example) tend to pile up on each other and riders on the pole have to keep riders above them from coming down on them. If you get pushed off the banking, you crash. And it's complicated because with the steepness of many tracks, the rider on the pole will be looking across at the knees of the rider above him. A bump can signal he's drifting down, and after that, you're trying to shoulder him so he doesn't drift down into your front wheel or push you off the track entirely. It works the same way on the road.

And I won't even begin to go into what happens as riders are slipping around in cyclocross.

You absolutely should learn to bump, even if you don't race. It's a safety technique. And learn how to do it with your hips or shoulders, which is the safe way to do it (and also, if you keep your hands on your bars, it's harder for an official to DQ). If you're racing weekly races, it isn't worth it. If you're racing cat 4-5 it absolutely isn't worth it, and probably not in cat 3. If you're racing cat P-1-2, you should know how because others do it and expect it, and not knowing how is unsafe.

[JimmyTango]

I agree that bumping is an important and necessary part of safe racing.

Last summer I was crashed out of an office park crit (mixed cat 2/3 field) by an inexperienced rider who was drifting from left to right into my line as I moved up the field. I had riders on my wheel so instead of suddenly breaking to drop back and make room for him to slot in in front of me I held my ground and gave him a gentile touch on his hip with my elbow to let him know he had to stay put and not ride into me.... it scared him so much to make contact with me that he INSTANTLY jerked his head around to see what I was doing and rode his front wheel right into my pedals, taking us and two riders on my wheel down with him.

[HenryA]

Why are we calling that move a bump, thats NOT a bump, its a clear shoulder charge right at the other riders arm.

That guy had NO call for that Dangerous and unacceptable shoulder charge and should be Disqualified, banned from racing and ass whipped.

Watch it again and right before it happens you can see #729 back away from him, knowing he is a Dangerous rider.

.

What some are calling bumping is what I would call leaning or touching. That is an inevitable and sometimes purposeful thing that happens with lots of riders in close proximity. Bumping is when the leaning or touching becomes more aggressive and generally gets the bumper a good cussing and maybe a little payback by shutting him out at a turn or moving him out of the group.

I’ve never heard “shoulder charge” but in amateur racing it would seem completely inappropriate and dangerous. The word that comes to mind for me when I watched the video is something like “assault”.

I got a couple of days in the ICU and a week in the hospital from some ass-hattery that was about as egregious as the video portrayed. One guy took his hand off the bars and pushed the other. When they slammed back together, it caused a wreck that took out half the field. I was first to the party since I was fifth right behind the third and forth place instigators. And we were absolutely flying until it all came unraveled with 4 laps to go.

While hands off the bars is rulebook grounds for DQ, what I saw in the video was really worse than my wreck. I think the guys in front of me committed a safety violation. The jackass in the video appeared to have an intent to injure his fellow racer.

[GregL]

Fundamentally, amateur cyclists should NOT play pro. Letting a rider in close proximity know you're there with a gentle touch = good. Stiff-arming someone, head-butting, or the aggressive move in the linked video above = idiocy. Over the years, I've seen all sorts of stupidity. Once watched nearly the entire lead group get taken out on a climb because a genius tried to give a teammate a push. Another time a back marker from another field interfered with the sprint finish for my race. I saw it coming, moved over and eased up. It wasn't worth running someone over to win an amateur race. Two guys behind me weren't paying attention. They continued the sprint and found out that two cyclists couldn't occupy the same space simultaneously. I got a ringside seat to their crash. It's amazing how many sparks a bike throws up as it slides on the pavement. End result was two DNFs, a broken frame, and a broken collar bone...

Greg

[GOTHBROOKS]

only bump id ever take is one from pantani.

[ivanooze]

Ok, I think there's way too much emphasis on the video I posted. I merely put that up as an example of something to never do. As a fellow paceliner already pointed out, there's a whole thread on what happened that day. I was also at that race as a cat 3.

- anyways, it seems like the general consensus is that bumping is a good safety tactic to have regardless of what category racer you are.
- however, Just how people get influenced by their heroes of a sport and want to be like them, so do us cyclists. Allot of racers want to be the next Cavendish or charon or whoever they aspire to be, and part of what they see is bumping aggressively, so they decide that bumping in the way a pro does is fine for them to do.

[unterhausen]

I don't know, I think it's clear that most racers have very little training and wouldn't know what to do if they were leaned on. Riding with intention seems be a thing of the past. So it's best to avoid any contact if possible, no matter how gentle. OTOH, it makes sense to learn how to react properly to contact.

[ergott]

I guess bottom line (for non pros) is;

Preparing for it? Good idea.

Initiating it? Bugger off.

[colker]

I was sure this was another complaint about bumping ads in the classifieds.

[Veloo]

Believe this is in regards to the incident.

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/felony-battery/

[ptourkin]

There was a big discussion about this on here when it happened and a better one on PVCycling. Dude is a known asshole and so was anyone who defended him.

John Walsh has recovered from some pretty major injuries and will probably be driving a motor and racing at the San Diego Velodrome tonight. Thanks for asking.

He's also a coach on the road and track and has been for many years. He knows how it's done.

[carpediemracing]

I've been racing a while now. Bumping is a skill one should have (wheel touching is even better, but harder to practice).

However in pretty much all my races, and they get a bit tight here and there, I basically never contact another rider.

If a Rider A needs to contact another rider for any kind of tactical reason, it means that Rider A has made a tactical mistake, and needs to resort to physical force to get things back his way. Rider A should accept their mistake and correct it properly.

If I make a tactical mistake I wait and correct it later, tactically. I don't force it.

Except for a friendly push to close a gap (tried to help someone close a gap tonight, actually) or stay on a wheel, I view contact between riders as completely unnecessary.

[GregL]

Except for a friendly push to close a gap (tried to help someone close a gap tonight, actually) or stay on a wheel, I view contact between riders as completely unnecessary.
I'll add that sometimes the contact is because of someone else's error. If an unskilled or reckless rider is about to bump you into a dangerous situation, you need to be prepared (if possible) and react accordingly. I've had a reckless rider come very close to pushing me into a ditch. I saw his bad move coming and just as he was about to hit me, leaned back into him with my shoulder. This kept us both on the road and upright.

Greg

[ivanooze]

Except for a friendly push to close a gap (tried to help someone close a gap tonight, actually) or stay on a wheel, I view contact between riders as completely unnecessary.

were you at telo tonight??

[11.4]

What some are calling bumping is what I would call leaning or touching. That is an inevitable and sometimes purposeful thing that happens with lots of riders in close proximity. Bumping is when the leaning or touching becomes more aggressive and generally gets the bumper a good cussing and maybe a little payback by shutting him out at a turn or moving him out of the group.

I’ve never heard “shoulder charge” but in amateur racing it would seem completely inappropriate and dangerous. The word that comes to mind for me when I watched the video is something like “assault”.

I got a couple of days in the ICU and a week in the hospital from some ass-hattery that was about as egregious as the video portrayed. One guy took his hand off the bars and pushed the other. When they slammed back together, it caused a wreck that took out half the field. I was first to the party since I was fifth right behind the third and forth place instigators. And we were absolutely flying until it all came unraveled with 4 laps to go.

While hands off the bars is rulebook grounds for DQ, what I saw in the video was really worse than my wreck. I think the guys in front of me committed a safety violation. The jackass in the video appeared to have an intent to injure his fellow racer.

There are always the egregious incidents. I remember at Trexlertown when one rider literally grabbed the bars of another rider at the finish and flipped him off the track. But bumping is a wide range of actions and shouldering or leaning can be aggressive or gentle and can be with good cause or unwarranted. Using it to take another rider out or intimidate him into backing off? Not acceptable, even in pro racing. Using it to make a line for yourself so you and those following you don't crash when you've screwed a turn? Necessary if you don't do so much that you make someone else crash instead. Doing it to protect yourself from someone steering wide or otherwise not holding a line and endangering you? Acceptable.

It isn't purely defensive. Racing is about making mistakes and most mistakes are recoverable. Many recoveries require bumping. Getting bumped on the hip or shoulder isn't bad and anyone racing at any category should at least be able to deal with it when it happens to them. Getting bumped at the bars or forearm is destabilizing and the wrong way to do it. And we're not talking about crossing someone's front wheel. That's never acceptable.

If you never race, bumping is purely a defensive precaution when someone veers into you. If you race, it's part of the game. It should be limited and non-endangering in minor racing such as weekly race series. It shouldn't be necessary if there isn't real money or titles on the line, and that covers pretty much all masters' racing. But if you're an elite, you better know how to do it. At that level, racing is about winning and the referees will keep you honest about not hurting anyone or cutting them off, but a bump? It happens.

[Gummee]

About the most I'll do in a pack is use my hand to tough someone's hip if they're encroaching on my space. I use the hip because it's very hard to upset someone's handling at their center of mass.

Bumping as a skill used to be taught. Nowadays? Not nearly as much so you have to be very careful whom you're bumping and how you're bumping.

Same with rubbing wheels. Used to be taught. Now? Nope.

M

[carpediemracing]

were you at telo tonight??

Tuesday Night Rent, East Hartford.

As it was I was struggling to hold on, and that was in the Bs.

[ivanooze]

Tuesday Night Rent, East Hartford.

As it was I was struggling to hold on, and that was in the Bs.

ah ok, i had someone push me forward at telo in torrance CA for some reason. guess they thought i was struggling to stay on