OT: The Diesel might not be dead after all...

[Gsinill]

Looks like Bosch just found the silver bullet to save the Diesel engine (for now):

From a Financial Times article (https://www.ft.com/content/4a4a92fe-4870-11e8-8ee8-cae73aab7ccb):
"The company said that it can achieve average NOx readings of just 13 milligrams per kilometre in real world conditions, versus the 120mg that are permitted in 2020."

Personally I think electric vehicles are the only way in the long-term, but until then it would be nice to have a Diesel alternative.

EDIT: Other source that does not require a subscription: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180425/COPY/304259944/bosch-claims-a-breakthrough-that-could-save-diesel-engines

[AngryScientist]

i can't get to the article without jumping through some hoops, but what does bosch have to do with it? they make sensors, etc correct?

with how efficient, lightweight and powerful the modern crop of gas engines are, i see very little demand for diesel passenger cars at the moment.

we're still a long way off all-electric vehicles replacing ICE engines, especially for anything larger than small commuter cars.

[MattTuck]

I read an article on bloomberg the other day that said China is adding electric buses at a staggering rate, such that it is actually curtailing oil demand. They said it is the equivalent of London's entire fleet of buses, about every month.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/electric-buses-are-hurting-the-oil-industry


I'd much rather see these big vehicles go electric, they are at extremely high utilization rates compared to normal passenger cars, and really take advantage of the torque electric motors provide.

Until the battery technology gets better for passenger cars, and charging becomes faster, I don't see it as a viable alternative.

[BobbyJones]

i can't get to the article without jumping through some hoops, but what does bosch have to do with it? they make sensors, etc correct?.

I didn't read the article, but Bosch is the biggest supplier of diesel fuel injection systems in the world. Which means they probably have a pretty big hand in overall engine design as well.

It's my understanding that alot of the mechanical engineering in autos are done by subs. To put things in perspective, I even know one guy who's company only designs and sells hinges and latches.

[BikeNY]

i can't get to the article without jumping through some hoops, but what does bosch have to do with it? they make sensors, etc correct?

with how efficient, lightweight and powerful the modern crop of gas engines are, i see very little demand for diesel passenger cars at the moment.

we're still a long way off all-electric vehicles replacing ICE engines, especially for anything larger than small commuter cars.

Bosch has ALOT to do with diesels! The make the whole injection system for modern diesels and a bunch of other stuff, and were also part of the whole diesel scandal.

Modern diesels can still achieve probably 50% better fuel economy than modern gassers, I see that as worthwhile. Modern gas engines are also emitting more and more particulates as they get more efficient.

Agreed about electric vehicles. I certainly see them as the future, but we are not there yet.

[Gsinill]

i can't get to the article without jumping through some hoops, but what does bosch have to do with it? they make sensors, etc correct?


Not just sensors, supplier of whole engine management systems, ABS, injection systems etc...

As a matter of fact, both, hardware and software used by VW for cheating were actually from Bosch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/business/bosch-vw-diesel-settlement.html


with how efficient, lightweight and powerful the modern crop of gas engines are, i see very little demand for diesel passenger cars at the moment.



Assuming same impact on the environment, I would pick a Diesel anytime over a gas engine.

[bicycletricycle]

I wonder if it could be adapted to existing cars?

[C40_guy]

Looks like Bosch just found the silver bullet to save the Diesel engine (for now):


Unfortunately, Bosch was also pretty instrumental in killing the diesel engine.

They were complicit in the VAG (VW/Porsche/Audi) emissions scandal. It's unlikely that we will ever see another diesel engine in the US from VAG, and many other regions are also moving away from diesel, towards hybrids.

VW will be buying back my TDi Touareg as a result...and I'm not happy about it...it's a wonderful SUV with great handling and fuel economy. Same basic platform as the Porsche Cayenne. But VW (with Bosch's help) turned it into an orphan and offered me silly money to give it back to them...

[Gsinill]

I wonder if it could be adapted to existing cars?

Answer is NO according to a more comprehensive article in the German magazine "Der Spiegel".

[Tickdoc]

diesels aren't going anywhere anytime soon in the us with our deficient train infrastructure and highway trucked goods dependency.

[mistermo]

It's unlikely that we will ever see another diesel engine in the US from VAG....

VW is now all-in on electric, and among the those atop the leaderboard. It's more than unlikely... in fact it WON'T happen. They're too committed to electric, plus could never withstand the negative PR that would come from going down the diesel path again. Bosch is not going to change VWs strategy.

Assuming same impact on the environment, I would pick a Diesel anytime over a gas engine.

Same here, but I look forward to an electric future.

[Gsinill]

Unfortunately, Bosch was also pretty instrumental in killing the diesel engine.
...
It's unlikely that we will ever see another diesel engine in the US from VAG.

I thinks it's too early to call...
I am actually really surprised how VAG and Bosch got away with a black eye so far.
Remember the Deepwater Horizon? Don't think people are boycotting BP over it anymore.

Time heals all wounds...
Just wait till the gas price creeps up to five bucks again.

[cinema]

if you can produce a diesel engine that clean i'd like to see the real numbers on emissions from electric cars. anyone have any info on average emissions from production of an electric vehicle itself to the displaced pollution electricity creates? not to mention that to own one an electric vehicle one must basically be a homeowner to charge it. that is less and less likely for younger generations who live in urban areas, where most pollution is concentrated.

i own a hybrid and would love to believe such a diesel vehicle is possible, but i've been reading a lot about the increased risk of certain cancers simply from driving a passenger vehicle running on diesel

[ultraman6970]

What is displaced pollution????

Electric cars dont produce air contaminants and they dont use regular motor oil, just in those two you have a big difference with any vehicle in maintenance and contamination (eg: i have an oil leak in my car, im dropping oil all over town) . THe problem are the batteries, nobody talks about that.

The other detail is that I always had the impression that the automakers know how to make cleaner cars since centuries ago, but looks like they dont want to. Stuff talked in articles are things that had been around for the longest time.

Need a car now, looking at electric right now.

[YoKev]

Mazda CX-5 diesel appears good to go (soon) with California approval granted on April 19th:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116333_mazda-gets-california-approval-for-cx-5-diesel

[unterhausen]

the auto companies have increased the power of IC motors to an amazing extent while also improving fuel economy. My '84 honda civic had 75 horsepower and got a little over 30mpg downhill on a freeway. Now it has 2x the horsepower with better gas mileage. If we were serious about fuel usage/pollution, they could dial the power back and accomplish that. But they don't have to, and we aren't serious.

[C40_guy]

What is displaced pollution????

Electric cars dont produce air contaminants and they dont use regular motor oil, just in those two you have a big difference with any vehicle in maintenance and contamination (eg: i have an oil leak in my car, im dropping oil all over town) . THe problem are the batteries, nobody talks about that.

When you charge an electric vehicle at home or at a charging station at work or Whole Foods, that electricity has to be generated somewhere. (At least at Whole Foods, the electricity is free range, grass fed electricity.) Locally, most of our electricity is generated by a natural gas plant. While that plan runs pretty cleanly, it still produces air pollution. In other areas, sources may be coal fired, or nuclear, or wind turbines.

Personally, my roof generates 30-40% more electricity on an annual basis than we use. if I charged an electric vehicle at my house (during sunny daytimes), I really would be using clean electricity. On the other hand, if I charged it at night, I'd be pulling the power off the grid...

[cinema]

When you charge an electric vehicle at home or at a charging station at work or Whole Foods, that electricity has to be generated somewhere. Locally, most of our electricity is generated by a natural gas plant. While that plan runs pretty cleanly, it still produces air pollution.

exactly. not to mention that the amount of destruction and risk involved in obtaining natural gas.

I've also heard that after just a year, a diesel powered engine begins to produce more carcinogens and particulates that flow directly into the cabin due to increasing blow by.

[staggerwing]

Mazda CX-5 diesel appears good to go (soon) with California approval granted on April 19th:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116333_mazda-gets-california-approval-for-cx-5-diesel

And, just to murky the waters, Mazda is about to go all in on compression ignition gasoline engines. Going to be interesting to see where that goes.

[C40_guy]

If only we had a form of locomotion that, once the device is manufactured, there is no further pollution when used.

I would suggest the bicycle, but in my experience, the engine (at least for my bikes) creates a lot of methane!

[paredown]

When you charge an electric vehicle at home or at a charging station at work or Whole Foods, that electricity has to be generated somewhere. (At least at Whole Foods, the electricity is free range, grass fed electricity.) Locally, most of our electricity is generated by a natural gas plant. While that plan runs pretty cleanly, it still produces air pollution. In other areas, sources may be coal fired, or nuclear, or wind turbines.

Personally, my roof generates 30-40% more electricity on an annual basis than we use. if I charged an electric vehicle at my house (during sunny daytimes), I really would be using clean electricity. On the other hand, if I charged it at night, I'd be pulling the power off the grid...

True dat--I hate when the all-electric crowd assumes that their cars are powered by fairy dust. Around here it is likely to be oil-fired, and not clean.

And if you want to look at total carbon footprint, hi-tech batteries are not very clean, nor are plastic compounds used for a lot of body panels on electrics...

All that said, the best assessment of a Tesla, still has the all-electric coming out ahead over vehicle life (if you believe their claims that they will recycle 70% of the EOL battery):
The Union of Concerned Scientists did the best and most rigorous assessment of the carbon footprint of Tesla's and other electric vehicles vs internal combustion vehicles including hybrids. They found that the manufacturing of a full-sized Tesla Model S rear-wheel drive car with an 85 KWH battery was equivalent to a full-sized internal combustion car except for the battery, which added 15% or one metric ton of CO2 emissions to the total manufacturing.

However, they found that this was trivial compared to the emissions avoided due to not burning fossil fuels to move the car. Before anyone says "But electricity is generated from coal!", they took that into account too, and it's included in the 53% overall reduction.

And it's probably worth asking what happens to the battery at end of lifecycle. Answer: Tesla recycles it, recovering 70% of the carbon.

So assuming that the numbers are accurate, electrics still make sense.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/04/22/the-carbon-footprint-of-tesla-manufacturing/#28229bc66096

[Mikej]

I believe In electric, but I would have thought the tech development would have been the hard part, not the manufacturing, which seems to be Teslas problem -getting the economical version to the public. Cool cars though.

[Ralph]

Gasoline engines are also improving at an amazing rate. Taking the best from a diesel.....turbo charging, direct injection, strong internals to withstand the extra pressure, etc. Next compression ignition from Mazda this year, and from Nissan variable rate turbo chargers NOW.
Even though diesel fuel produces more BTU's of energy per volume, I don't see any point in passenger car diesels any more. Especially with EPA rules and public opinion against them.

My brother has a 3 cylinder turbo charged Ford Focus that makes adequate HP and TQ, gets about 50 MPG on gasoline, and can be sold in a bargain priced plain stripped down vehicle for very little money....less than $20,000. Pretty incredible. And you don't have to deal with "stinky" fuel.

[cinema]

The Ford Focus does not get 50mpg.

[Ralph]

I'll agree. Probably not in EPA tests. But my brother has logged 50 MPG (tested at fill ups) on the hwy in the 3 cylinder turbo Focus. Kinda like diesel drivers say they get 45-50 MPG.

[AngryScientist]

i just looked for kicks.

sorry Ralph - i know you're a ford fan, but that focus is a pretty poor showing.

EPA estimated up to 40 mpg, 3cyl engine, 123hp (@6k rpm), and basically $20k. that's a pretty weak combination IMO.

the car is 3k#. my goodness that would be a handful with 4 adults going uphill on the freeway with the AC on...

[Ralph]

I'm just making the point that Ford, GM, BMW, MB, Hyundai, and others have taken the best part of diesels and merged that with modern gasoline engines to produce smaller fuel efficient engines that make good power with pretty good clean fuel economy. And when you clean the diesel engines up, plus their added cost, not much advantage to a diesel anymore in a passenger car.

Plus the Turbo charged gas engines mostly have steel billet crankshafts and forged pistons and rods....the parts that gave Passenger car diesels their reputation for long life. Well passenger car gas engines have those parts now.

Heavy duty diesel engines in trucks, fork lifts, locomotives, and stationary applications (like pumps) a whole nother category. Their engines are built entirely different from a passenger car diesel. They can do an amazing amount of work from their BTU's of fuel.

[Ralph]

i just looked for kicks.

sorry Ralph - i know you're a ford fan, but that focus is a pretty poor showing.

EPA estimated up to 40 mpg, 3cyl engine, 123hp (@6k rpm), and basically $20k. that's a pretty weak combination IMO.

the car is 3k#. my goodness that would be a handful with 4 adults going uphill on the freeway with the AC on...

It's not that bad. Can be bought stripped for about $17,000. Good commuter car. And better seats than a Fit.

[AngryScientist]

oh, i agree with you Ralph, to a point. direct injected turbo engines can be made quite reliably, for sure - but there is no arguing that they are much more complex machines than NA engines. the addition of a high pressure fuel system, variable valve timing and high pressure air system, including boost control is not insignificant. there is a lot more to go wrong, and a lot less for the home mechanic to diagnose and fix in the driveway.

for me these days, driving very few miles per year, i want a car that makes decent power and is as mechanically simple as possible, within reason. fuel economy is not a concern. for people who commute far and need the best possible fuel economy, the current crop of gassers is pretty darn good!

[Ralph]

oh, i agree with you Ralph, to a point. direct injected turbo engines can be made quite reliably, for sure - but there is no arguing that they are much more complex machines than NA engines. the addition of a high pressure fuel system, variable valve timing and high pressure air system, including boost control is not insignificant. there is a lot more to go wrong, and a lot less for the home mechanic to diagnose and fix in the driveway.

for me these days, driving very few miles per year, i want a car that makes decent power and is as mechanically simple as possible, within reason. fuel economy is not a concern. for people who commute far and need the best possible fuel economy, the current crop of gassers is pretty darn good!

Most new diesel passenger car engines have those same complexities. Lots of parts to go wrong.

BTW....haven't seen the specs on the latest Mazda diesel. But a couple years ago....they were trying to bring to market a lower compression ratio diesel. Lean burn. Light weight all aluminum heads and block. That would run cleaner. Use spark plugs for starting, then switch over to compression. Showed lots of promise for North American use. Other companies working on compression gas engines, using spark plugs for starting. Some race cars now have the valves operated electronically....no need for cams, etc (haven't seen one up close yet). Now with variable ratio turbo chargers, fuel burning technologies merging.....the future of ICE seems strong for a while yet. Even with development of interim systems of electricity and various ways to make hybrids.....until they get hydrogen fuel figured out with it's infrastructure.

[joosttx]

Please diesel jeans are like so 10 years ago

[rwsaunders]

What is displaced pollution???? In most cases the fossil fuels that are consumed in order to generate the electricity to charge the batteries of the electric vehicle.

[dddd]

i just looked for kicks.

sorry Ralph - i know you're a ford fan, but that focus is a pretty poor showing.

EPA estimated up to 40 mpg, 3cyl engine, 123hp (@6k rpm), and basically $20k. that's a pretty weak combination IMO.

the car is 3k#. my goodness that would be a handful with 4 adults going uphill on the freeway with the AC on...

That Focus does really well as he said compared to the small cars of 30 or 40 years ago, and it's a much bigger car than those old ones.

The EPA ratings are a good bit more conservative these days as well!

My '88 Izuzu P/U with a 94HP 2.3 liter gas engine and 5s box gets a true 28mpg on the freeway at 65mph. It was EPA rated at 24mpg hwy in 1988, which would be about 21mpg by today's ratings methods (which take more mixed driving distances and other variables into consideration). People often don't believe me when I tell them I've driven 550 miles on just one 19.8 gallon tank of gas. The truck weighs 2700# and never had air conditioning or power steering btw. It has never broken down in 170k miles of driving and still uses all four of it's original pairs of brake pads (and it's original clutch).

So I think that the "40mpg" Focus could be freeway driven (by a cyclist:-)) to 50mpg in good conditions.

[cetuximab]

Just wait till the gas price creeps up to five bucks again.

With new drilling tech i.e. fracking, I do not think oil and gas prices will go as high as 2008. The market now has the ability to increase supply when prices cross their price threshold.

[cmg]

In most cases the fossil fuels that are consumed in order to generate the electricity to charge the batteries of the electric vehicle.

and what, fossil fuels are also consumed to get oil out of the ground and to convert it to gasoline.

the notion that a 3 cyclinder turbo charged engine will out last it payments is hoot. you'll be enjoying the comfy seats while the car is in the garage with a broken motor. no manufacturer is going to put a turbo on anything they can't sell for more than $20k.

[Davist]

Generation is the issue with electric vehicles. We are not producing enough electricity to power the projected fleet. Charging a vehicle in your driveway on a sunny day based on rooftop solar is a bit unrealistic for most of the US due to weather/need to be in an office, etc. Energy storage is in its infancy, and will need to be a lot more prevalent and useful. My company makes EV chargers (including the bus stop one) which uses a huge amount of power to charge things quickly, which results on stress on generation. Li Ion batteries, when used in EVs are basically done when the reach 80% of useful life. HUGE issue with toxic waste at that point, if we end up with a 10-20% EV fleet, we'll have bigger toxic waste issues (given current storage tech) than we ever would have had with an all nuclear grid...

[AngryScientist]

interestingly just read that ford is scaling back it's small car lineup big time to focus on SUVs and trucks...

If there was any doubt that the auto industry is rapidly changing, Ford just delivered proof. The industry pioneer is scaling back its North American small car lineup in North America to just two vehicles, the Mustang and the unrevealed Focus Active crossover, in the "next few years." The rest of its range will be limited to SUVs, trucks and commercial vehicles. Ford isn't shy about its reasons: "declining consumer demand and product profitability" make it impractical to develop other sedans. You'd better act quickly if you've been looking at a brand new Fusion or Taurus.

[oldpotatoe]

i read an article on bloomberg the other day that said china is adding electric buses at a staggering rate, such that it is actually curtailing oil demand. They said it is the equivalent of london's entire fleet of buses, about every month.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/electric-buses-are-hurting-the-oil-industry


i'd much rather see these big vehicles go electric, they are at extremely high utilization rates compared to normal passenger cars, and really take advantage of the torque electric motors provide.

Until the battery technology gets better for passenger cars, and charging becomes faster, i don't see it as a viable alternative.

but...

most of mainland china's electricity is produced from fossil fuels, predominantly from coal – 73% in 2015

[BikeNY]

I'm just making the point that Ford, GM, BMW, MB, Hyundai, and others have taken the best part of diesels and merged that with modern gasoline engines to produce smaller fuel efficient engines that make good power with pretty good clean fuel economy. And when you clean the diesel engines up, plus their added cost, not much advantage to a diesel anymore in a passenger car.

Plus the Turbo charged gas engines mostly have steel billet crankshafts and forged pistons and rods....the parts that gave Passenger car diesels their reputation for long life. Well passenger car gas engines have those parts now.

Heavy duty diesel engines in trucks, fork lifts, locomotives, and stationary applications (like pumps) a whole nother category. Their engines are built entirely different from a passenger car diesel. They can do an amazing amount of work from their BTU's of fuel.

Seems like the diesel and gas engines are slowly converging...

You are correct that all these new technologies have considerably improved the fuel economy of current gas engines, but they are now much more complex and expensive, approaching that of modern passenger diesel engines. They are also emitting lots more particulates then before.

If your brother can get 50mpg on the highway in that Focus, he would easily get 60+mpg in VW Golf TDI.

[cinema]

i read the new equinox diesel is able to pull 40mpg freeway. i think the complexities of these new diesels seems to make them less friendly though, and they're quite different from the old NA or indirect engines that you could fix with a hammer and a wrench and could go 500k before rebuilds

[cmg]

remember when Gm built diesels in the 90's. have a hard time envisioning improvement. the new diesels are designed for the buyer to have a constant car payment and little else. once when he buys it and again when it blows before his last payment and when trades it for the next one and rolls his payments for another 60 months........ :)

[C40_guy]

interestingly just read that ford is scaling back it's small car lineup big time to focus on SUVs and trucks...

Leaving them nothing to sell next time gas prices spike. D'oh.

[dancinkozmo]

....i dunno, the last "fast & furious" was pretty awful....i'd say vin diesel is done .

[biker72]

Current AAA fuel prices have diesel running about 25 cents higher a gallon than regular gas.

On my 2k mile Minneapolis trip last year my 2015 Accord averaged 38.2 MPG running 5 mph above any posted highway speed. This did include some city driving at posted speeds.

Why change to diesel????

[C40_guy]

Current AAA fuel prices have diesel running about 25 cents higher a gallon than regular gas.

On my 2k mile Minneapolis trip last year my 2015 Accord averaged 38.2 MPG running 5 mph above any posted highway speed. This did include some city driving at posted speeds.

Why change to diesel????

An equivalent 2015 VW Passat TDi would probably get 42-45 mpg. Maybe not worth the additional complexity of owning a diesel, even with their lovely torque output.

Diesel cost does fluctuate independently of gas. For quite a while, diesel was the cheapest fuel in New England, below regular gas.

On the other hand, my 2010 Touareg TDi gets 27 mpg on the highway (and its replacement, a '13 Q7 TDI gets 31). An equivalent gas V8 engined Touareg might get 18-20, on premium gas.

[cinema]

I sure would like to test drive that new 3L discovery though. A triple locked modern diesel rover would be a blast to drive around here

[Gsinill]

Why change to diesel????

Did you ever drive one?

[biker72]

Did you ever drive one?

According to this article (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1112988_for-2018-only-12-diesel-vehicles-offered-in-u-s-guess-who-has-most) there isn't much to pick from.

[Drmojo]

In most cases the fossil fuels that are consumed in order to generate the electricity to charge the batteries of the electric vehicle.

the grid is much greener here
and the grass is greener too

I will never buy a combustion fool car again
oh, the batteries can be recycled and/or repurposed

China and India are WAY ahead of US in promoting and developing EVs
We are still fossil fools here
Vroom vroom fumes!

[homagesilkhope]

with how efficient, lightweight and powerful the modern crop of gas engines are, i see very little demand for diesel passenger cars at the moment.


Except for western Europe, where roughly half of new passenger car sales are of the diesel variety.

[Mikej]

Can our infrastructure handle a large increase in demand for diesel fuel? The demand may not meet the supply and manufacturing ability of the US, therefore causing the price to go up. Our country is made to supply gasoline to cars.

[oldpotatoe]

Can our infrastructure handle a large increase in demand for diesel fuel? The demand may not meet the supply and manufacturing ability of the US, therefore causing the price to go up. Our country is made to supply gasoline to cars.

About twice gasoline vs diesel produced per barrel of oil now(20 gallons vs 11 gallons)...If there is a huge demand for diesel in passenger cars, it would also see a corresponding reduction in gasoline cars, wouldn't it? I don't see it either tho...

[Mikej]

About twice gasoline vs diesel produced per barrel of oil now(20 gallons vs 11 gallons)...If there is a huge demand for diesel in passenger cars, it would also see a corresponding reduction in gasoline cars, wouldn't it? I don't see it either tho...

Right, the refinery processing capacity is different in EU, the US refinery capabilities are set up to accommodate the larger ratio of gasoline. https://www.fuelseurope.eu/knowledge/how-refining-works/dieselgasoline-imbalance/
Basically you just don’t flip a switch from gasoline to diesel from a refinery process. I work in fuel transfer metering devices and have somewhat of an idea how this works, but am not an experts-and the above link is EU - where the diesel demand has been increasing for decades.

[summilux]

China and India are WAY ahead of US in promoting and developing EVs
We are still fossil fools here


China and India are pushing EVs because of devastating urban air quality issues. Because coal and petroleum burning account for 3/4 of China's electricity production and for 2/3 of India's, increased EV use will simply move pollution from rich cities to poorer rural communities. You are kidding yourself if you think that EVs in these countries will stop global warming. And then there are the substantial environmental and human rights issues associated with lithium extraction.

[slinkywizard]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rwsaunders]

the grid is much greener here and the grass is greener too

I guess that it depends on what you define as green. In CA (2016 data), 50% of the electricity generation came from natural gas fired power plants and 10% came from nuclear power plants. If you read the "quick fact" section below, CA is a leader in hydroelectric and renewable power generation, though. CA represents about 12% of the US population, so anything that involves energy generation and consumption has a major impact.

https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=CA#tabs-4

Excluding federal offshore areas, California was the third-largest producer of petroleum among the 50 states in 2016, after Texas and North Dakota, and as of January 2017, third in oil refining capacity, with a combined capacity of almost 2 million barrels per calendar day at the state's 18 operable refineries.

In 2015, California accounted for one-fifth of the nation’s jet fuel consumption.
California's total energy consumption ranks among the highest in the nation, but, in 2015, the state's per capita energy consumption ranked 49th, due in part to its mild climate and its energy efficiency programs.

In 2016, California ranked third in the nation in conventional hydroelectric generation, second in net electricity generation from all other renewable energy resources combined, and first as a producer of electricity from solar, geothermal, and biomass resources.

California leads the nation in solar thermal electricity capacity and generation. In 2016, California had 73% of the nation's capacity and produced 71% of the nation's utility-scale electricity generation from solar thermal resources.

[bikinchris]

With new drilling tech i.e. fracking, I do not think oil and gas prices will go as high as 2008. The market now has the ability to increase supply when prices cross their price threshold.

The price of a barrel of oil is not always tied to production figures. A nice little war in the Middle East will spike the price of oil for a long period.

[Clean39T]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180428/98939760efcde6b902d77f7af50f8e31.jpg

[Davist]

the grid is much greener here
and the grass is greener too

I will never buy a combustion fool car again
oh, the batteries can be recycled and/or repurposed

China and India are WAY ahead of US in promoting and developing EVs
We are still fossil fools here
Vroom vroom fumes!

Wow, this is completely wrong..

Nope. The CA grid suffers from the Duck curve of solar, need to "spin up" capacity quickly when the sun goes down or cloudy, what spins up quickly? natural gas.. Grass is brown 7 of the 12 months when I lived in Norcal.

Batteries (Li Ion) CAN NOT currently be recycled, and repurposing is basically just a bunch of science experiments not ready for prime time.

China and India still run on fossil fuels like coal for much of generation moving the smokestack from a car to a power plant doesn't make it cleaner, and India's grid runs on diesel generators, with outages every day in cities like Bangalore and Mumbai.

I'll bet you haven't visited these places lately...

[Gsinill]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180428/98939760efcde6b902d77f7af50f8e31.jpg

Didn't know "Ulle" used a Deda Newton

[Gsinill]

So I just financed a VAG Diesel model and to my surprise my credit union applied a 0.5% "alternate fuel" discount to my APR! :banana:

[C40_guy]

So I just financed a VAG Diesel model and to my surprise my credit union applied a 0.5% "alternate fuel" discount to my APR! :banana:

That's cool. Remember to add winterizer each time you fill up until spring. :)

[572cv]

That's cool. Remember to add winterizer each time you fill up until spring. :)

That's cool indeed. My local fuel supplier here in VT does this in their on-road diesel pump, otherwise I'd have to pay more attention. I'm into my first winter with a second-hand 2014 BMW 328d wagon. I'm beginning to get why drivers like diesels... great torque, great power. And, it can carry bikes with a lot of flexibility.

I'm really impressed with this diesel powertrain.

[Gsinill]

That's cool indeed. My local fuel supplier here in VT does this in their on-road diesel pump, otherwise I'd have to pay more attention. I'm into my first winter with a second-hand 2014 BMW 328d wagon. I'm beginning to get why drivers like diesels... great torque, great power. And, it can carry bikes with a lot of flexibility.

I'm really impressed with this diesel powertrain.

I haven't been without at least one Diesel car since I moved to Chicago almost 20 years ago.
Given the harsh winters, all Diesel fuel in IL seems to be winterized by default.
I assume the same is true for VT.

Glad you like your BMW.
A 328d wagon was #1 on my shortlist but my wife being the usual American wagon hater objected.

[likebikes]

2014 BMW 328d wagon.

do they make the 328d with a manual?

[nickl]

Except for western Europe, where roughly half of new passenger car sales are of the diesel variety.

Not exactly. Diesels currently represent only about 30-35% of new car sales in the Europe and that number is dropping rapidly. Projected portion of new cars powered by oil burners will be about 5% in less than 10 to 12 years.

[Dave]

Electric cars do require the production of air emissions to run - the amount depends on your local source of electricity. If your electricity comes from a coal or natural gas turbine plant, it may produce far more emissions than a gasoline engined car.

Electricity produced at a coal fired plant is only about 30 percent efficient - much like the average car.

If you have a large number of solar panels on your house, maybe they produce enough power to offset your car's consumption.

Long road trips will always be a problem.

[93KgBike]

Sure, Bosch is saying that (now that they have ZERO credibility and VW Group has $20B in fines), but what they aren't telling you is that you'll need to live near an airfield so that you can fill up with Jet-A. Screw them and their claims.

I hope Ford builds a gas/hybrid F-150, or Tesla builds a pickup. As soon as they do, that's where you'll find my bikes.

[zap]

Not exactly. Diesels currently represent only about 30-35% of new car sales in the Europe and that number is dropping rapidly. Projected portion of new cars powered by oil burners will be about 5% in less than 10 to 12 years.

I'm betting no new diesels will be sold in Europe in 5 years time.

My aunt in Austria is trading in her Golf diesel this week for a gas model. According to her, one town has banned diesels and with more towns doing the same soon, she decided to move on.

[oldpotatoe]

Sure, Bosch is saying that (now that they have ZERO credibility and VW Group has $20B in fines), but what they aren't telling you is that you'll need to live near an airfield so that you can fill up with Jet-A. Screw them and their claims.

I hope Ford builds a gas/hybrid F-150, or Tesla builds a pickup. As soon as they do, that's where you'll find my bikes.

Just talked to a guy who flys with Delta..they are paying almost $5 per gallon for JetA.

[572cv]

do they make the 328d with a manual?

Every other car in the family is a manual, including a Volvo s40T, a BMW 328 xi wagon, a Nissan Frontier, and the 2cv. I bet BMW makes the 328d with a manual for other markets, but the do not bring it here. That said, and with my obvious prejudice towards manual, the auto transmission in the 328d is as good as I can imagine one being. The 8 speed set up matches really well to the motor and is actually remarkably smooth, and holds the power band nicely. The manual mode on the shifter is decent, but the paddle shifters are quite nice. I’m more impressed with it than I thought I would be.

[Mikej]

Electric cars do require the production of air emissions to run - the amount depends on your local source of electricity. If your electricity comes from a coal or natural gas turbine plant, it may produce far more emissions than a gasoline engined car.

Electricity produced at a coal fired plant is only about 30 percent efficient - much like the average car.

If you have a large number of solar panels on your house, maybe they produce enough power to offset your car's consumption.

Long road trips will always be a problem.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/electric-car-well-to-wheel-emissions-myth/

[Dave]

As a mechanical engineer, I'm always skeptical about any article than includes no technical information to support the conclusions.

The efficiency of most power plants is very poor, just like the efficiency of a gas engine. If you divide power plant heat rate numbers by 3412, you get the power plant efficiency.

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_02.html

One reason that EVs can be construed to produce fewer emissions, comes from the fact that most have low horsepower motors, compared to gasoline fueled cars. It's not an apples to apples comparison. Gas engine cars would have far fewer emissions if they all had half the horsepower and used half as much fuel.

You can't make electricity from a dirty coal fired plant, operating at 33% efficiency, and use that electricity to power an automobile with the SAME horsepower as a gasoline powered version of that car and claim that the car has lower emissions. It might be less if the electric car has 1/4 the power of the same model with a gas engine.

To truly have lower emissions, the electrical power source has to include a lot of wind and solar power to offset the fossil fuel being used.

[Mark McM]

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/electric-car-well-to-wheel-emissions-myth/

I have to question at least one of the conclusions from this article:

“EVs charging in Vermont are estimated to produce the fewest emissions – oil and gas make up only 1.2% of the electricity sources in the state while cleaner sources such as nuclear, hydro, biomass, wind, and solar make up the rest. West Virginia’s electricity production is 95.7% from coal, making it the state with the most well-to-wheel CO2-equivalent emissions.

“The national average is 4,815 pounds of CO2-equivalent emissions for a typical EV per year as compared to the average gasoline-powered car which produces 11,435 pounds of CO2-equivalent emissions annually.”

So, there it is. On average, a conventional car creates more the twice as much carbon pollution as an electric car. Even in the state that gets almost all of its electricity from burning coal, an EV still pollutes less than a typical conventional car

There is no way that an electric car in a state that produces 95.7% of its power from coal will produce less C02 that a typical conventional car. It's a simple fact that gasoline produces less C02 per unit energy than coal does.

[Mark McM]

Electric cars do require the production of air emissions to run - the amount depends on your local source of electricity. If your electricity comes from a coal or natural gas turbine plant, it may produce far more emissions than a gasoline engined car.

Electricity produced at a coal fired plant is only about 30 percent efficient - much like the average car.

I agree regarding coal fired power plants, but not necessarily for natural gas turbines. Natural gas powered gas turbines are not only more efficient than coal fired steam turbines and internal combustion engines (about 40% vs. 33% vs. 25%), but natural gas produces less C02 per btu than either coal or gasoline. While an electric car using coal produced power may generate more CO2 than a gasoline car, an electric car using natural gas produced power may generate a little less CO2 than a gasoline car.

[C40_guy]

If you have a large number of solar panels on your house, maybe they produce enough power to offset your car's consumption.

Long road trips will always be a problem.

Our panels generate about 40% more electricity annually than we consume. But spending $50K on a new EV to save $2K/year on gas or diesel doesn't make financial sense.

I'll do my best to help save the planet in other ways...

[C40_guy]

That's cool indeed. My local fuel supplier here in VT does this in their on-road diesel pump, otherwise I'd have to pay more attention. I'm into my first winter with a second-hand 2014 BMW 328d wagon. I'm beginning to get why drivers like diesels... great torque, great power. And, it can carry bikes with a lot of flexibility.

I'm really impressed with this diesel powertrain.

Friend of mine has a similar one, picked up via tourist delivery in Germany. Damn, that thing is quick!

With regard to additives, I'm in the habit of adding 8 oz of Power Service diesel fuel supplement with every fill up. There's anecdotal evidence that it helps with high pressure fuel pump longevity. And when the weather gets cold, I switch over to the winterizer. Just because.... Cheap insurance against fuel gelling...

The newer diesel fuel systems are a bit more finicky than the old school diesels. Get premium brand (Mobil, Shell, etc.) and only buy at high volume stations. Dealer service manager once told me that he services a couple of cars a week that had been filled at discount stations...

[Mikej]

I have to question at least one of the conclusions from this article:

“

There is no way that an electric car in a state that produces 95.7% of its power from coal will produce less C02 that a typical conventional car. It's a simple fact that gasoline produces less C02 per unit energy than coal does.

What is you your basis of this argument? Theoretically, an all coal powered grid could produce more green house emissions "upstream", but we are not 100% coal here in the US. An according to this, even coal is better than gasoline.
https://assets.weforum.org/editor/nhc504WsXK5M36_zGeXBhSzMdAjilmY8LgBYFv8g4u8.png
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/electric-cars-are-still-coal-powered/

[unterhausen]

Gas engine cars would have far fewer emissions if they all had half the horsepower and used half as mcuh fuel.
I had a 1984 honda civic, the "sports" model that year. It had less than 60 hp. Now the low-end civic has 183hp, and there is a version with 300 hp. And they get much better mileage than the '84. Of course, they are much heavier too, but they still have much better acceleration numbers. It would be nice if that equation was rebalanced in favor of economy. The engineering advance in gasoline engines is only rarely noted. It has been really impressive, just not used for good. They could have split the difference between economy and performance, and we wouldn't be used to the ridiculous increase in acceleration that we have gotten.

[572cv]

Friend of mine has a similar one, picked up via tourist delivery in Germany. Damn, that thing is quick!

With regard to additives, I'm in the habit of adding 8 oz of Power Service diesel fuel supplement with every fill up. There's anecdotal evidence that it helps with high pressure fuel pump longevity. And when the weather gets cold, I switch over to the winterizer. Just because.... Cheap insurance against fuel gelling...

The newer diesel fuel systems are a bit more finicky than the old school diesels. Get premium brand (Mobil, Shell, etc.) and only buy at high volume stations. Dealer service manager once told me that he services a couple of cars a week that had been filled at discount stations...

Yes, the 328d is really quick :). That was a happy realization. Thanks for the tips on fuel mix. I do use the supplement with my Kubota tractor, but hadn’t much thought about the wagon. I guess I’ll double check with my fuel guys about whether they use a winterizer. It is definitely a high volume location, though.

[NHAero]

Here in New England, the CO2 loading of a kWh of electricity from the grid (baseload number, when most EVs charge overnight, like ours) is a bit below 0.6 pounds of CO2 per kWh. My Hyundai Ioniq plug-in hybrid is running mostly on electricity (and we have several full EVs at work, data similar) and over these warmer months since we bought it is averaging about 4.75 miles per kWh. Let's say that the lower mileage in the winter will average out to 4 miles/kWh year round - that puts CO2 emissions per mile at about 0.15 pounds.
Gasoline is a bit below 20 pounds of CO2 emissions per mile, and diesel is a bit over 22 - call them 20. To get down to 0.15 pounds of CO2 per mile a fossil-fuel car has to get 133 mpg.
The dirtiest grid is the Rockies region, with just below 1.8 pounds of CO2 per kWh - three times New England. So the equivalent emissions from an EV getting 4 miles per kWh is a fossil burner getting 44 mpg.
Our motivation for the plug-in is that we have a surplus from our 4.75 kW solar array, and a ~$1,500 credit on our Eversource account that is stranded - we have to use it in other ways than in our house. The Ioniq got 54 mpg on gasoline on our vacation, so once the battery is discharged it functions like a typical hybrid.

[alancw3]

i drove diesel cars and suvs for 20 years and i have to say that i would never by another diesel with the advancements in gasoline engine technology. my father had a job for most of his 50 working years in which if he had diesel he could have free diesel fuel and therefor drove diesel cars and trucks. after he retired the first thing he did was get a gas car. i have a friend who lives in germany and when i mention diesel cars he just tells me that no affluent person in germany is now buying diesel cars. gasoline only. so do not buy that diesel is not dead! at least in the usa unless you need the power to haul a trailer i do not see diesel as a smart option. and now urea and add blue also add to the cost. just doesn't make $$ sense to me.

[572cv]

Here in New England, the CO2 loading of a kWh of electricity from the grid (baseload number, when most EVs charge overnight, like ours) is a bit below 0.6 pounds of CO2 per kWh. My Hyundai Ioniq plug-in hybrid is running mostly on electricity (and we have several full EVs at work, data similar) and over these warmer months since we bought it is averaging about 4.75 miles per kWh. Let's say that the lower mileage in the winter will average out to 4 miles/kWh year round - that puts CO2 emissions per mile at about 0.15 pounds.
Gasoline is a bit below 20 pounds of CO2 emissions per mile, and diesel is a bit over 22 - call them 20. To get down to 0.15 pounds of CO2 per mile a fossil-fuel car has to get 133 mpg.
The dirtiest grid is the Rockies region, with just below 1.8 pounds of CO2 per kWh - three times New England. So the equivalent emissions from an EV getting 4 miles per kWh is a fossil burner getting 44 mpg.
Our motivation for the plug-in is that we have a surplus from our 4.75 kW solar array, and a ~$1,500 credit on our Eversource account that is stranded - we have to use it in other ways than in our house. The Ioniq got 54 mpg on gasoline on our vacation, so once the battery is discharged it functions like a typical hybrid.

A compelling argument for electric vehicles, yes. Even though the EPA rated CO2 output of the 328d is 279g CO2/mile, or 0.615pounds, that is still four times what your Iconiq is putting down. That that isn’t as bad as the averages you cited isn’t the point, of course. BTW this particular car is averaging 39-40 mpg, for reference. What a terrible name for a power company, Eversource. They sure don’t have ‘public service’ in their name anymore....

[Mark McM]

What is you your basis of this argument? Theoretically, an all coal powered grid could produce more green house emissions "upstream", but we are not 100% coal here in the US. An according to this, even coal is better than gasoline.
https://assets.weforum.org/editor/nhc504WsXK5M36_zGeXBhSzMdAjilmY8LgBYFv8g4u8.png
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/electric-cars-are-still-coal-powered/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/

Electric cars are great for eliminating oil from transportation, because very little U.S. electricity is generated by burning petroleum. But electric cars may or may not help the country combat climate change—and it all depends on where the electricity comes from.

Cars and trucks are responsible for roughly 24 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas pollution—nearly 1.7 billion metric tons per year. Because those emissions come from hundreds of millions of tailpipes, this source of pollution seems difficult to control. Shifting it to hundreds of smokestacks at power plants that supply electricity to charge electric cars therefore seems like a more effective way to clean up the fleet.

But those smokestacks, many attached to coal-fired power plants, are the single-largest source of greenhouse gas pollution in the U.S., at two billion metric tons of CO2 per year. That source would grow as electric cars demand more and more electricity, unless tighter pollution controls are placed on power plants or electric utilities shift to less polluting sources such as solar. As it stands, a conventional Toyota Prius hybrid vehicle, which burns gasoline when its batteries are not engaged, and the all-electric Nissan Leaf produce roughly the same amount of greenhouse gas pollution: 200 grams per mile, according to data from the U.S. Department of Energy.

That's an average across the U.S. In California, which has one of the highest proportions of clean electricity in the country, the electric vehicle would produce only 100 grams per mile, half that of the hybrid. Ditto for Texas and even Florida. But in the Midwest and South, where coal fuels the bulk of electricity generation, a hybrid produces less CO2 than an electric car. In fossil fuel–dependent Minnesota an electric car would actually emit 300 grams per mile of greenhouse gases. As a result, some researchers suggest that a regional approach to clean vehicle standards makes more sense than national standards that effectively require electric cars across the board. Minnesota could go for hybrids and California could go for electric vehicles.

[Mark McM]

Mazda is working on their latest engine technology, called SkyActiv-X, which is a kind of hybrid between a gasoline and a diesel engine. It combines the high compression ratio of a diesel engine for efficiency, with the lower pollution of a gasoline engine. It is expected to be the most efficient ICE yet, with an efficiency of greater than 50%.

https://jalopnik.com/mazdas-skyactiv-3-engine-could-be-as-clean-as-some-elec-1822516318

[NHAero]

Small point (since I owned a Nissan Leaf) - even though Nissan sold many of these, they sure aren't the gold standard for EVs - mine never got the mile range they claimed, not close. Whereas in the 6 months since we've had it, the Ioniq exceeds its rated electric range. So the Scientific American article is starting with the best gas/hybrid car, the Prius (or close - the Ioniq straight hybrid ekes by the Prius on rated mpg) and not comparing it to the best EV.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/

[Gsinill]

i drove diesel cars and suvs for 20 years and i have to say that i would never by another diesel with the advancements in gasoline engine technology. my father had a job for most of his 50 working years in which if he had diesel he could have free diesel fuel and therefor drove diesel cars and trucks. after he retired the first thing he did was get a gas car. i have a friend who lives in germany and when i mention diesel cars he just tells me that no affluent person in germany is now buying diesel cars. gasoline only. so do not buy that diesel is not dead! at least in the usa unless you need the power to haul a trailer i do not see diesel as a smart option. and now urea and add blue also add to the cost. just doesn't make $$ sense to me.


I agree, the Diesel is in agony but so is the gas engine.
Dieselgate simply accelerates the Diesel's demise.
EV will take over soon...

The $$$ debate has been an old one and depends on too many variables.
This said, in addition to the purely objective cost argument, there is also a subjective and satisfying component to hitting those higher MPG numbers.

In regard to advances in the gasoline engine technology:
31.7mpg in mixed mode for a 4,652 lbs. SUV with AWD?
Not sure that will ever happen with a gas engine...

https://i.postimg.cc/VLKcyjxB/IMG-3481.jpg

[BikeNY]

I really enjoy driving my Golf Sportwagon TDI around getting close to 50 MPG and not having to refuel for like 600 miles. To bad VW screwing it up big time. There are new technologies to be discovered that can clean up diesel emissions, as evidenced by the article, but the money will no longer be spent to develop them.

I did not enjoy driving a Nissan Leaf for 3 years and constantly worrying about running out of juice. Yeah, I know electric is coming, but gas (and some diesel) will be around for a good long time still. For long distance travel diesel still rules, but for around town and commutes, electric and hybrids are the way to go these days.

[NHAero]

what vehicle is that?

I agree, the Diesel is in agony but so is the gas engine.
Dieselgate simply accelerates the Diesel's demise.
EV will take over soon...

The $$$ debate has been an old one and depends on too many variables.
This said, in addition to the purely objective cost argument, there is also a subjective and satisfying component to hitting those higher MPG numbers.

In regard to advances in the gasoline engine technology:
31.7mpg in mixed mode for a 4,652 lbs. SUV with AWD?
Not sure that will ever happen with a gas engine...

https://i.postimg.cc/VLKcyjxB/IMG-3481.jpg

[AllanVarcoe]

I'm ok with getting an electric car in a decade (+) or so but what I'll have a hard time with will be the manual transmission.

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