Another on P-R and disc brakes

[oldpotatoe]

No, not trying to start another argument, just looking thru Velonews and others before domani.

http://www.velonews.com/2018/04/news/roubaix-favorites-steer-clear-of-disc-brakes_462570

The industry has been pushing discs into the peloton over the last years. Their advantage is clear on wet days when riders are descending mountain passes
“But in Paris-Roubaix? In a race like this, you shouldn’t be braking anyway,” said one of Quick-Step’s four leaders Zdenek Stybar.
Stybar did not argue the pros or cons of the new braking system, but rather that the speed and convenience of wheel changes is so important in France’s biggest one-day race.

[ergott]

So posting only articles that favor your opinion about disc brakes in a new thread every time isn't trying to start something?:cool:

I'll save everyone the next 8 pages:

Disc brakes work for some conditions/needs.

Rims brakes work for some conditions/needs.

Pros rarely ever need disc brakes for closed course racing.

[oldpotatoe]

So posting only articles that favor your opinion about disc brakes in a new thread every time isn't trying to start something?:cool:

I'll save everyone the next 8 pages:

Disc brakes work for some conditions/needs.

Rims brakes work for some conditions/needs.

Pros rarely ever need disc brakes for closed course racing.

Big farging sigh...It's not MY opinion but the opinion of the guys there at P-R..thought it would be interesting..sorry, so sorry, won't happen again..:mad: Is it Velonews' position also? That's where the farging article came from.

The reasons are seemingly clear: disc brakes offer more controlled, consistent braking in variable weather conditions and open the door to wider tire options than traditional rim brakes.

If ya don't want to read the thread, then don't..

Here ya go sir...

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/special-giant-defy-advanced-sl-paris-roubaix-bike-for-mike-teunissen-52056/

Just like the consumer option, the Defy bike is made with Giant's Advanced SL-grade composite, disc brakes, a D-shaped seatmast for compliance and plenty of clearance for high-volume tires.

[enr1co]

Posted the same link in the other P-R discussion thread - also no intent to beef but relavant to thread to the post.

[oldpotatoe]

Posted the same link in the other P-R discussion thread - also no intent to beef but relavant to thread to the post.

how dare you!!!

Kidding..tired of winter..couple inches of snow last night. :) I don't have a disc brake bike I can ride....:eek:

[ergott]

I'm just busting your chops, no hard feelings! ;)

These articles are written with the same style headlines as political ones. They polarize a topic to get the clicks. When we all sit down and actually discuss the merits of disc brakes there's little to disagree about.

I haven't finished my coffee yet so there's that.

[Gummee]

Contrary to what 'the converted' try and tell you, discs on road bikes are just brakes.

They slow and stop you. ...and yes, I have a few bikes with each.

If you want to run discs, great. If you don't want to run discs, you're not going to die a horrible death because 'you don't have stopping power.'

My $.02

M

[fignon's barber]

“If you get a flat tire, it’s faster to change your wheels,” Yves Lampaert (Quick-Step Floors), winner of Dwars door Vlaanderen, explained.
Only reason they opt for rim brakes.
That being said, I hope someone from EF or Trek win P-R. On discs. Just to piss you guys off.:)

[oldpotatoe]

“If you get a flat tire, it’s faster to change your wheels,” Yves Lampaert (Quick-Step Floors), winner of Dwars door Vlaanderen, explained.
Only reason they opt for rim brakes.
That being said, I hope someone from EF or Trek win P-R. On discs. Just to piss you guys off.:)

It's about the race..it wouldn't even piss me off.
.....maybe if sram and discs:)

P-R and Flanders are my favorite annual races..followed by M-SR and the Giro..care little about the big boy, TdF..

[bicycletricycle]

I have not been paying a lot of attention to this. Do popular road disc systems have the same size rotors?

Is the wheel change issue to do with compatibility or a lack of availability ?

[David Kirk]

I would have thought that all the axes would be sharp by now. I guess they are never sharp enough.

dave

[ergott]

I have not been paying a lot of attention to this. Do popular road disc systems have the same size rotors?

Is the wheel change issue to do with compatibility or a lack of availability ?

Biggest issue is rotor alignment. Very tight pad clearance with disc brakes so you have to get it bang on or your rotor will rub and you can't just open the brake like rim brakes.

[oldpotatoe]

Biggest issue is rotor alignment. Very tight pad clearance with disc brakes so you have to get it bang on or your rotor will rub and you can't just open the brake like rim brakes.

As ? above..is there any UCI type standard with regards to axle type/diameter and rotor diameter?

[ergott]

As ? above..is there any UCI type standard with regards to axle type/diameter and rotor diameter?

No standard either. You have 160/160, 140/140, and 160/140. I personally prefer 160 front otherwise the power/heat dissipation isn't really there.

Looks like 12mm axle is winning as the standard though.

At this point teams with disc bikes have to do a full bike change in order to be competitive. Full bike changes are pretty common, saves time over changing wheels when you can manage it. Otherwise...

[oldpotatoe]

No standard either. You have 160/160, 140/140, and 160/140. I personally prefer 160 front otherwise the power/heat dissipation isn't really there.

Looks like 12mm axle is winning as the standard though.

Why no standard? If the manufacturers really want to be 'all in' on discs...why not some pressure...bribe the UCI, like they did with Spinacchi's..:)..The manufacterers want it yet, they...don't...

[ergott]

Why no standard? If the manufacturers really want to be 'all in' on discs...why not some pressure...bribe the UCI, like they did with Spinacchi's..:)..The manufacterers want it yet, they...don't...

No point when like the article points out, professional racing isn't the best use of the technology. Few people disagree with that.

[oldpotatoe]

No point when like the article points out, professional racing isn't the best use of the technology. Few people disagree with that.

except for

Wheels, shifting(ALL electronic), cockpit bits(stem/handlebars), helmets, pedals, shoes, and don't forget frames/forks..'aero'/comfort/wee suspension....just not brakes/axles/rotors....and maybe tires, since tubulars still rule the day..rightly so, IMHO.

[pdmtong]

I would have thought that all the axes would be sharp by now. I guess they are never sharp enough.



dave



Well played. Very well played

[AngryScientist]

Speaking of technology...

what tires do the pros run for this race these days? do the FMB P-R's still reign supreme?

https://cdnmos-bikeradar.global.ssl.fastly.net/images/news/2010/04/08/1270723391820-1utdnn5xrxv8h-630-354.jpg

[Burnette]

No, not trying to start another argument, just looking thru Velonews and others before domani.

http://www.velonews.com/2018/04/news/roubaix-favorites-steer-clear-of-disc-brakes_462570

Man, things are really only going to get harder and harder for you on the disc brake front, especially if you think racing will be an area where you can make a point against them.

And unlike the notion that Campy doesn't care about being a part of the industry, Campy has jumped head first into electronic shifting and disc brakes in response to the market and in an effort to keep up.

From Campy:
Campagnolo disc-brake callipers are the result of countless hours of R&D, all in the pursuit of levels of braking performance and reliability that are worthy of the Campagnolo name

Not only do Campagnolo disc-brake rotors maintain performance in extreme heat, they also provide the fastest deceleration with the least manual pressure compared to competitors – both in the dry and in wet conditions.


Combine the Super Record™ EPS™ groupset and Campagnolo® disc brake technology and you have a product that guarantees not only the speed and reliability to leave the competition behind but also the control and safety to do so time and time again.

Germane to P-R and components in the OP give this a read about rear derailleurs. These will have more of an impact than the brakes will.

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/shimano-ultegra-rx-road-clutch-rear-derailleur-mechanical-and-di2-52018/

[Ruimteaapje]

FMB and Dugast

[Ruimteaapje]

And I agee: disk brakes add nothing in Paris-Roubaix - just like they did not add anything to cyclocross - but it keeps the sponsors happy. It is basically the same old story. low profile box-section tubular rims with 26 or 27mm tires are perfect for this race but the industry wants to push high-profile carbon wheels so now all pro racers tackle Paris-Roubaix on stiff carbon wheels and to compensate for the lack lack of comfort they increased the tire size to 30mm.

[ergott]

low profile box-section tubular rims with 26 or 27mm tires are perfect for this race but the industry wants to push high-profile carbon wheels so now all pro racers tackle Paris-Roubaix on stiff carbon wheels and to compensate for the lack lack of comfort they increased the tire size to 30mm.

I don't agree with this. Flanders was won by less than a minute. Solo finishes live and die by seconds and they are out in the air with nowhere to hide. Having carbon wheels can save them precious seconds when a small pack is bearing down on them. The lack of comfort thing is a myth. I ride carbon all the time and they aren't harsh. I also have Mavic GP4s for comparison. The tire size increase would be welcome regardless of the rims they are glued to.

[ptourkin]

And I agee: disk brakes add nothing in Paris-Roubaix - just like they did not add anything to cyclocross - but it keeps the sponsors happy. It is basically the same old story. low profile box-section tubular rims with 26 or 27mm tires are perfect for this race but the industry wants to push high-profile carbon wheels so now all pro racers tackle Paris-Roubaix on stiff carbon wheels and to compensate for the lack lack of comfort they increased the tire size to 30mm.

lol

[R3awak3n]

I think he is joking....

[Ruimteaapje]

I think he is joking....
Who is?

[fignon's barber]

I don't agree with this. Flanders was won by less than a minute. Solo finishes live and die by seconds and they are out in the air with nowhere to hide. Having carbon wheels can save them precious seconds when a small pack is bearing down on them. The lack of comfort thing is a myth. I ride carbon all the time and they aren't harsh. I also have Mavic GP4s for comparison. The tire size increase would be welcome regardless of the rims they are glued to.


.....and add in the fact that 200km of P-R are ridden over normal roads.

[Burnette]

.....and add in the fact that 200km of P-R are ridden over normal roads.

And add in the fact that riders are juiced and ride for the most part what they are given I don't see how Paris Roubaix can be used as validation for anything other than it's a pretty good show.

[Red Tornado]

I'm sick of the discs v. rim brake debate. Both have their pros & cons. Both are available so folk can use whichever they want (or both).
Feelings run strong in both camps, but this debate is akin to the Campy/Shimano/SRAM debate.

[David Kirk]

I'm sick of the discs v. rim brake debate. Both have their pros & cons. Both are available so folk can use whichever they want (or both).
Feelings run strong in both camps, but this debate is akin to the Campy/Shimano/SRAM debate.

"like" button clicked.

dave

[Burnette]

The interesting part about the underlying intent of this thread is that if you look at Paris Roubaix and the harsh part of the course the only market segment that mimics is gravel bikes which are predominately disc.
That funny right there.

http://www.letelegramme.fr/images/2018/04/06/paris-roubaix-les-chiffres-de-la-reine-des-classiques_3891229.jpg

[ergott]

Not the stuff I ride. Climbs and descents are also a major part of the fun. That's where braking gets tricky. That and good brakes that fit around big tires. Not trying to win a Spring Classics so I don't need to be competitive on the 90% of asphalt those races are ridden.

So in a nutshell, they only ride a small taste of the gravel rides most of us do. If they were racing on a course like D2R2, their bikes might look different.

[Burnette]

Not the stuff I ride. Climbs and descents are also a major part of the fun. That's where braking gets tricky. That and good brakes that fit around big tires. Not trying to win a Spring Classics so I don't need to be competitive on the 90% of asphalt those races are ridden.

So in a nutshell, they only ride a small taste of the gravel rides most of us do. If they were racing on a course like D2R2, their bikes might look different.

I agree but what bikes in the market today does the PR course have anything in common with? Gravel bikes.

You can buy iterations of gravel bikes that can live on the road as well as gravel with decently light weight frames and even deep carbon rims. And most of these have disc brakes.

[ergott]

But not really. Most people that venture off onto gravel roads string them together into mostly gravel days. PR is very unique in that its a road race that happens to have treacherous sections that link the race to its past. It's a road race first.

If I were riding the PR course I'd also choose a regular road bike due to its length and mostly regular roads.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Burnette]

But not really. Most people that venture off onto gravel roads string them together into mostly gravel days. PR is very unique in that its a road race that happens to have treacherous sections that link the race to its past. It's a road race first.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Weekly ride posts here and across the hall show that even in the real world people do a mix of both road and gravel with their gravel bikes.

I hear what you're saying, but again, they make and sell bikes with the Paris Roubaix moniker that have different geometries for more comfort and frames that can handle wider rims and tires. Roubaix has more in common with a gravel bike than a road only bike as it does have to live in two very different environments.

[ergott]

Riding and racing, big difference.

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[Black Dog]

Man, things are really only going to get harder and harder for you on the disc brake front, especially if you think racing will be an area where you can make a point against them.

And unlike the notion that Campy doesn't care about being a part of the industry, Campy has jumped head first into electronic shifting and disc brakes in response to the market and in an effort to keep up.

From Campy:
Campagnolo disc-brake callipers are the result of countless hours of R&D, all in the pursuit of levels of braking performance and reliability that are worthy of the Campagnolo name

Not only do Campagnolo disc-brake rotors maintain performance in extreme heat, they also provide the fastest deceleration with the least manual pressure compared to competitors – both in the dry and in wet conditions.


Combine the Super Record™ EPS™ groupset and Campagnolo® disc brake technology and you have a product that guarantees not only the speed and reliability to leave the competition behind but also the control and safety to do so time and time again.

Germane to P-R and components in the OP give this a read about rear derailleurs. These will have more of an impact than the brakes will.

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/shimano-ultegra-rx-road-clutch-rear-derailleur-mechanical-and-di2-52018/

For the record, Campy started its Electronic Shifting Program before Shimano and SRAM. They were not trying to keep up. Shimano released there version to market 1st followed shortly after by campy. Campy had prototypes in the pro peloton before the big S. Non, the less they were all behind Mavic, who had released electronic shifting long before anyone else. Here is some reading about campy's efforts in regards to electronic shifting:

http://www.velonews.com/2011/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/lennard-zinn-the-20-year-history-of-campagnolo-electronic-power-shift-eps_198080

[enr1co]

I'm sick of the discs v. rim brake debate. Both have their pros & cons. Both are available so folk can use whichever they want (or both).
Feelings run strong in both camps, but this debate is akin to the Campy/Shimano/SRAM debate.

I'm sick of the "gravel" marketing term which bike mfgs came up with :rolleyes: :p

[sitzmark]

For the record, Campy started its Electronic Shifting Program before Shimano and SRAM. They were not trying to keep up. Shimano released there version to market 1st followed shortly after by campy. Campy had prototypes in the pro peloton before the big S. Non, the less they were all behind Mavic, who had released electronic shifting long before anyone else. Here is some reading about campy's efforts in regards to electronic shifting:

http://www.velonews.com/2011/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/lennard-zinn-the-20-year-history-of-campagnolo-electronic-power-shift-eps_198080

Suntour with Browning (1990) was actually first to market with electronic. Was a big part of the company’s demise - nail-in-the-coffin.

[Burnette]

For the record, Campy started its Electronic Shifting Program before Shimano and SRAM. They were not trying to keep up. Shimano released there version to market 1st followed shortly after by campy. Campy had prototypes in the pro peloton before the big S. Non, the less they were all behind Mavic, who had released electronic shifting long before anyone else. Here is some reading about campy's efforts in regards to electronic shifting:

http://www.velonews.com/2011/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/lennard-zinn-the-20-year-history-of-campagnolo-electronic-power-shift-eps_198080

You can take umbrage with the verbiage and question the timing but the point is clear. Campy isn't off just doing their own thing, no, just like SRAM and Shimano, responds to the market and their competitors.

Campy's own ad hype for disc about they are better in the dry as well as the wet is just icing on the cake.

[Burnette]

Riding and racing, big difference.

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Racing, riding and what bicycle component makers develop and sell and to whom and for what purpose is where the two converge.

[Burnette]

I'm sick of the "gravel" marketing term which bike mfgs came up with :rolleyes: :p

I'm not sick of it but do find the term "gravel grinder" funny!

[Gummee]

I'm sick of the discs v. rim brake debate. Both have their pros & cons. Both are available so folk can use whichever they want (or both).
Feelings run strong in both camps, but this debate is akin to the Campy/Shimano/SRAM debate.

There are a few of us that don't like the marketing departments shoving discs down our throats as 'the next biggest thing EVAR!' when rim brakes work just fine for 95% of our riding.

...and yeah, that last 5% the discs are a doGsend

M

[taz-t]

Racing, riding and what bicycle component makers develop and sell and to whom and for what purpose is where the two converge.

They don't converge because the course is not the race, the race is the race. Ultimately, (sponsor requirements notwithstanding) the ability to take a neutral wheel change when the team car is not available is going to take priority unless discs give a substantial racing performance advantage, which they don't.

A beach cruiser with disc brakes, fenders and a sprung Brooks saddle *might* be the most appropriate bike for a Robaix 'ride' but it's not going to be the most competitive so it's not what you'll see the racers riding.

There's riding, there's racing, and there's professional racing. They may look alike but they're not the same thing.

[Burnette]

They don't converge because the course is not the race, the race is the race. Ultimately, (sponsor requirements notwithstanding) the ability to take a neutral wheel change when the team car is not available is going to take priority unless discs give a substantial racing performance advantage, which they don't.

A beach cruiser with disc brakes, fenders and a sprung Brooks saddle *might* be the most appropriate bike for a Robaix 'ride' but it's not going to be the most competitive so it's not what you'll see the racers riding.

There's riding, there's racing, and there's professional racing. They may look alike but they're not the same thing.

Let me show you how it converges. Take my statement and read what I added for clarity in parenthesis:

Racing, riding and what bicycle component makers develop and sell (frame geometries more suited for harsh terrain and frames made more comfortable through shock absorption and able to take wider rims and tires) and to whom (racers and consumers) and for what purpose (racing and gravel riding) is where the two converge.

How is this so?

* From Specialized Bike about the very own Roubaix bicycle:


Every crack, every pothole, every rough patch and bit of chip seal—the off-limits boneshakers to the smoothest homestretches—the Roubaix isn't resigned to a single day in France, it's made for every road, everywhere. And for models with the all-new Future Shock, rides are now even smoother and even faster.
Add it all up, and you get a race bike at heart, with the technology to float over the roughest roads.

That's about as direct and plain as it can be.

* https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/roubaix/c/performanceroubaix

[taz-t]

Let me show you how it converges. Take my statement and read what I added for clarity in parenthesis:

Racing, riding and what bicycle component makers develop and sell (frame geometries more suited for harsh terrain and frames made more comfortable through shock absorption and able to take wider rims and tires) and to whom (racers and consumers) and for what purpose (racing and gravel riding) is where the two converge.

How is this so?

* From Specialized Bike about the very own Roubaix bicycle:


Every crack, every pothole, every rough patch and bit of chip seal—the off-limits boneshakers to the smoothest homestretches—the Roubaix isn't resigned to a single day in France, it's made for every road, everywhere. And for models with the all-new Future Shock, rides are now even smoother and even faster.
Add it all up, and you get a race bike at heart, with the technology to float over the roughest roads.

That's about as direct and plain as it can be.

* https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/roubaix/c/performanceroubaix

But what will the *racers* actually be riding (as opposed to Specialized marketing prose)?

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/gilbert-and-stybar-paris-roubaix-unreleased-specialized-gallery-52053/

"While the consumer version of the bike is only available as a disc brake model, the team is using a rim brake version of the bike, which isn't yet available to consumers.


The team opts for rim brakes to 'give riders the most flexibility with technical support', says Specialized, possibly a reference to accessing neutral service in the often chaotic race."

And.. http://road.cc/content/feature/239689-paris-roubaix-bikes-7-pro-tweaks-tame-hell-north

"Some brands have pushed their endurance bikes entirely over to disc brakes, like Giant with its Defy and Specialized with its Roubaix, which means we’ll probably see some old bikes you can't actually buy being dusted down for the race."

I'd also suggest reading Calnago's post on Weight Weinees describing his Trek Koppenberg, aka an actual pro bike for cobbled classics, and how difficult it was to obtain one.

Like I said, professional racing and enthusiast riding are not the same thing.

[Burnette]

But what will the *racers* actually be riding (as opposed to Specialized marketing prose)?

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/gilbert-and-stybar-paris-roubaix-unreleased-specialized-gallery-52053/

"While the consumer version of the bike is only available as a disc brake model, the team is using a rim brake version of the bike, which isn't yet available to consumers.


The team opts for rim brakes to 'give riders the most flexibility with technical support', says Specialized, possibly a reference to accessing neutral service in the often chaotic race."

And.. http://road.cc/content/feature/239689-paris-roubaix-bikes-7-pro-tweaks-tame-hell-north

"Some brands have pushed their endurance bikes entirely over to disc brakes, like Giant with its Defy and Specialized with its Roubaix, which means we’ll probably see some old bikes you can't actually buy being dusted down for the race."

I'd also suggest reading Calnago's post on Weight Weinees describing his Trek Koppenberg, aka an actual pro bike for cobbled classics, and how difficult it was to obtain one.

Like I said, professional racing and enthusiast riding are not the same thing.

They converge in design and development, that's as plain as can be. A demand for it on a race course and in enthusiast's riding make it a viable product to develop and sell.

The fact that a platform can or can't be used in racing isn't due to validity of said platform it's just racing 's chaotic state and if you read through your link you would have read the real reason for going rim. It's neutral support.
From your own link:

The team opts for rim brakes to 'give riders the most flexibility with technical support', says Specialized, possibly a reference to accessing neutral service in the often chaotic race.

And for future reference I won't use the fact that race bikes have disc because it's superior, it's just another platform and perform as well as rim dry and better than rim wet, they will be on disc because that's what consumers are buying and bike makers are selling.

[Burnette]

Watch it all, it's good stuff but if you want understand disc and racing and the challenges, start at 2 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYZyWL9OwtY

[ergott]

I bet you see more Tarmacs than Roubaixs when it comes to what they actually race on. I know that's what I'd choose if I were in their shoes.

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[ergott]

And for Flanders the same rider used rim brake Madone.

https://youtu.be/daaXyxVpxns



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[taz-t]

They converge in design and development, that's as plain as can be. A demand for it on a race course and in enthusiast's riding make it a viable product to develop and sell.

The fact that a platform can or can't be used in racing isn't due to validity of said platform it's just racing 's chaotic state and if you read through your link you would have read the real reason for going rim. It's neutral support.
From your own link:

The team opts for rim brakes to 'give riders the most flexibility with technical support', says Specialized, possibly a reference to accessing neutral service in the often chaotic race.

And for future reference I won't use the fact that race bikes have disc because it's superior, it's just another platform and perform as well as rim dry and better than rim wet, they will be on disc because that's what consumers are buying and bike makers are selling.

"The fact that a platform can or can't be used in racing isn't due to validity of said platform it's just racing 's chaotic state"

This statement is nonsense - the fact that the platform can't be used for racing is *exactly why the platform is not valid* for RACING. Hence, NO CONVERGENCE.

Neutral support is part of what makes racing different than riding. Which is exactly what I said two posts ago:

"They don't converge because the course is not the race, the race is the race. Ultimately, (sponsor requirements notwithstanding) the ability to take a neutral wheel change when the team car is not available is going to take priority unless discs give a substantial racing performance advantage, which they don't.

Gravel bikes *may* share some similarities to professional race bikes but you keep trying to fit a square peg in a very small round hole.

The point that I've been making is that bikes for the cobbled classics are very different from consumer gravel bikes as their usage is very different, which is the same point that Ergott was making with his observation of the % of regular paved roads the race travels. Disc brake wheel changes are only one of the more obvious ones. How does Pinarello's microprocessor controlled rear suspension 'converge' with gravel bikes? Trek's decoupler? Specialized's future shock front suspension? When I think of gravel bikes, aside from the obvious ability to negotiate rougher terrain, durability and simplicity of maintenance come to mind. Neither of which are concerns for professional race bikes.

There's a lot more going on than wider tires and double wrapped bar tape.

[Burnette]

And for Flanders the same rider used rim brake Madone.

https://youtu.be/daaXyxVpxns



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To cherry pick who has disc and who does not is folly at it's best and it ignores the point made about convergence of what is raced and what is bought. Bike makers wouldn't be in the game if there was no market for the goods they are spending money on to develop, think about that.

And again, racing neither validates or invalidates a platform, racing has rules that can be prohibitive and support can be an issue for some teams. Check out the video I linked above for some insight.

[teleguy57]

And I agee: disk brakes add nothing in Paris-Roubaix - just like they did not add anything to cyclocross - but it keeps the sponsors happy. It is basically the same old story. low profile box-section tubular rims with 26 or 27mm tires are perfect for this race but the industry wants to push high-profile carbon wheels so now all pro racers tackle Paris-Roubaix on stiff carbon wheels and to compensate for the lack lack of comfort they increased the tire size to 30mm.

I don't agree with this. Flanders was won by less than a minute. Solo finishes live and die by seconds and they are out in the air with nowhere to hide. Having carbon wheels can save them precious seconds when a small pack is bearing down on them. The lack of comfort thing is a myth. I ride carbon all the time and they aren't harsh. I also have Mavic GP4s for comparison. The tire size increase would be welcome regardless of the rims they are glued to.

Good read on Zipp's testing to introduce carbon wheels to P-R. (https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/115178628-road-to-roubaix-the-complete-story)

I have some thoughts on discs, but not sure anything adds to this discussion so I'll keep them to myself.

[Burnette]

"The fact that a platform can or can't be used in racing isn't due to validity of said platform it's just racing 's chaotic state"

This statement is nonsense - the fact that the platform can't be used for racing is *exactly why the platform is not valid* for RACING. Hence, NO CONVERGENCE.

Neutral support is part of what makes racing different than riding. Which is exactly what I said two posts ago:



Gravel bikes *may* share some similarities to professional race bikes but you keep trying to fit a square peg in a very small round hole.

The point that I've been making is that bikes for the cobbled classics are very different from consumer gravel bikes as their usage is very different, which is the same point that Ergott was making with his observation of the % of regular paved roads the race travels. Disc brake wheel changes are only one of the more obvious ones. How does Pinarello's microprocessor controlled rear suspension 'converge' with gravel bikes? Trek's decoupler? Specialized's future shock front suspension? When I think of gravel bikes, aside from the obvious ability to negotiate rougher terrain, durability and simplicity of maintenance come to mind. Neither of which are concerns for professional race bikes.

There's a lot more going on than wider tires and double wrapped bar tape.

You have missed the point completely, let me help. Read the reasons why some can and do have disc and why some can't and won't. The reasons for both paths show that the reasons are "chaotic" rules that some teams have no issue.

Convergence. Where you miss the point is that grave riding, fire roads, Specialized and Trek developed the Roubaix and the Domane for both these types of enthusiast's riding as well as Paris Roubaix. If you read Trek's and Specialize's copy you will read they themselves make the connection, hence, the convergence of what is raced is also what is sold. It's really quite simple.

[Burnette]

And for Flanders the same rider used rim brake Madone.

https://youtu.be/daaXyxVpxns



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

This is funny, I laughed, check this out and see why this tangent is just that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvO74sZxVs4

[ergott]

Convergence. Where you miss the point is that grave riding, fire roads, Specialized and Trek developed the Roubaix and the Domane for both these types of enthusiast's riding as well as Paris Roubaix. If you read Trek's and Specialize's copy you will read they themselves make the connection, hence, the convergence of what is raced is also what is sold. It's really quite simple.

They certainly developed those bikes for consumers to ride gravel. The fact that they can be raced at the PR level does attest to their durability. The fact the most racers sponsored by Trek and Specialized choose other more road race oriented bikes from their respective lineups reflects the priority being the ease of swapping wheels and overall efficiency. A Tarmac is a faster more aggressive geometry bike and I bet you'll see more of them than Roubaixs despite what the Specialized ad copy tells you. I also wouldn't be surprised of you see more Madones than Domanes, but not sure since it's only one team and Trek is title sponsor. If Trek wants the whole team on Domanes then so be it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Burnette]

They certainly developed those bikes for consumers to ride gravel. The fact that they can be raced at the PR level does attest to their durability. The fact the most racers sponsored by Trek and Specialized choose other more road race oriented bikes from their respective lineups reflects the priority being the ease of swapping wheels and overall efficiency. A Tarmac is a faster more aggressive geometry bike and I bet you'll see more of them than Roubaixs despite what the Specialized ad copy tells you. I also wouldn't be surprised of you see more Madones than Domanes, but not sure since it's only one team and Trek is title sponsor. If Trek wants the whole team on Domanes then so be it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Assumptions aside for who knows the answer to those, I think we agree that just because one rider is on disc and another isn't has more to do with the bike company's sittuation and team dynamics and nothing to do with the validity of disc being in Paris Roubaix. And that's why the OP's attempt at cherry picking here was pointless.

The fact that the bikes of Paris Roubaix have much in common with fire road/gravel bikes, a segment dominated by disc, makes it even funnier.

[choke]

To cherry pick who has disc and who does not is folly at it's best and it ignores the point made about convergence of what is raced and what is bought. Bike makers wouldn't be in the game if there was no market for the goods they are spending money on to develop, think about that.I think you have that backwards. The company first develops the product and then tries to convince the people that they need to purchase it. The company needs to make new things so that they can convince people to "upgrade" and spend their money.

Sometimes the new product is an improvement and sometimes it's not.

[Burnette]

I think you have that backwards. The company first develops the product and then tries to convince the people that they need to purchase it. The company needs to make new things so that they can convince people to "upgrade" and spend their money.

Sometimes the new product is an improvement and sometimes it's not.

No, that's tin foil hat conspiracy thinking and it's wrong.

You've been here a while, years ago on this board and other cycling boards we have read constant complaints from fellow cyclist of frames that couldn't handle bigger tires, and they built them for us now, that frames needed to be more size specific in carbon layer build up to where a small had the same good characteristics as a medium frame, and they built them, that geometries should cater to longer rides so the came up with more endurance bikes, they built those, the quest for consistent quick and repeatable shifts has always been there and electronic shifting was developed, they built it, fire road and gravel road riding is a thing now brought on by us, not bicycle makers, you read about it here first, and they built it, fat bikes born in Alaska became a thing from consumers, they were custom only at one time I remember well, they build those too now.

If we quit buying a product they will stop making it, and if market research shows a need in the market they will fill it.

[choke]

No, that's tin foil hat conspiracy thinking and it's wrong.I was referring to components rather than frames and I stand by my statement. You may not agree with me but it is how I see most "innovations" in the cycling world (edited to add) and most of the world in general.

[Burnette]

I was referring to components rather than frames and I stand by my statement. You may not agree with me but it is how I see most "innovations" in the cycling world.

Components, frames, consumer demand drives the market. Re-read my post and see the examples, you've read your fellow cyclist on this very board ask for the frames and components that are now available today.

[wallymann]

...consumer demand drives the market...

iphone. pc. car. lightbulb.

[bigbill]

Components, frames, consumer demand drives the market. Re-read my post and see the examples, you've read your fellow cyclist on this very board ask for the frames and components that are now available today.

Consumers want what the pros are riding because they think it will make them faster. Pros ride what the sponsors give them and what they want to produce for the market that will follow the exposure of their products under a pro cyclist. Pros didn't have trouble stopping their bikes, they didn't have trouble shifting with mechanical shifters, their bikes were light enough, and aluminum rims were fine. Bike manufacturers have made great strides in improving aerodynamics, lighter wheels, and lighter frames. If they didn't keep adding features to pro bikes, no one would buy new ones. The one they had would be good enough.

I have a steel Dirt Road Racer with disc brakes, it's for riding gravel and some single track. The disc brakes allow me to run 700 or 650 wheels, depending on what kind of riding I want to do. A lot of riders on this forum have similar bikes.

[taz-t]

You have missed the point completely, let me help. Read the reasons why some can and do have disc and why some can't and won't. The reasons for both paths show that the reasons are "chaotic" rules that some teams have no issue.

Convergence. Where you miss the point is that grave riding, fire roads, Specialized and Trek developed the Roubaix and the Domane for both these types of enthusiast's riding as well as Paris Roubaix. If you read Trek's and Specialize's copy you will read they themselves make the connection, hence, the convergence of what is raced is also what is sold. It's really quite simple.

I didn't miss the point. I just don't agree with you and I think your logic is flawed.

Specialized developed the Roubaix to appeal to enthusiast riders that were not comfortable with aggressive (ie 'race position') geometry road bikes. They added a few features (like Zertz) to reduce jarring from narrow high pressure wheels and then *named* it after a well-known race. Like a Pontiac LeMans. Then the *copy writers* created a story to associate the two.

I said that pro bikes used in P-R, Flanders, et al are different from the gravel bikes the manufacturers such as Specialized and Trek produce for consumers and I stand by that statement as well as supported it with examples. (and not marketing jargon)

Yes, Specialized and Trek produce 'endurance' bikes with longer wheelbases.
Yes, the pros may ride bikes with (relatively) longer wheelbases during the classics.
*BUT*, the pros don't ride the production endurance frames with the extended head tubes and upright riding positions. They ride frames with aggressive front geometry that is frequently not available (or not marketed) to consumers. They certainly don't have wheelbases or geometries that approach the granddaddy of gravel bikes, Rivendell.

Yes, the pros ride bikes that are capable of using wider tires.
*BUT* their bikes use rim brakes and the manufacturers aren't marketing these bikes as gravel road bikes - if they're selling them at all.

Rather than a 'convergence', the actual evolution is to hyper-specialization. Look at a pro race bike from the '70s. The same bike was used for all road going events, whether paved, dirt, gravel, time trial or mass start. Maybe a different set of tires were used depending on surface/event. Now look at the spectrum of bikes sold by the typical large manufacturer - and I'm referring only to 700c drop bar bikes. Do you need further exposition?

Maybe when everyone is missing the point, you should reconsider the point you're trying to make.

[taz-t]

Consumers want what the pros are riding because they think it will make them faster. Pros ride what the sponsors give them and what they want to produce for the market that will follow the exposure of their products under a pro cyclist.

SOME consumers want what the pros ride because they think it's better (make them faster, etc.). SOME consumers want to identify/affiliate with a pro team to show their fandom (like wearing team kit, etc). I've thought it was interesting that a large manufacturer's team paint/affiliation bikes were usually in the manufacturer's mid-range line. At least is was in the Mid/late 2000's, haven't paid as much attention lately. Either way, sponsors want their NAME associated with successful riders to promote their goods, whether it's the same as provided to the rider or not.

SOME pros ride what the sponsors give them. SOME pros have the leverage to tell the sponsors what they want to ride and the sponsors either build it or they re-badge a custom build (as long as their name is on it, it will suffice for most of the target audience).


Pros didn't have trouble stopping their bikes, they didn't have trouble shifting with mechanical shifters, their bikes were light enough, and aluminum rims were fine. Bike manufacturers have made great strides in improving aerodynamics, lighter wheels, and lighter frames. If they didn't keep adding features to pro bikes, no one would buy new ones. The one they had would be good enough.

I'd argue that mechanical was good enough but if electronic offers an advantage (or not using it was a disadvantage) then a pro has to adopt it, same as indexing, and then STI/Ergo before it.

Bikes (any racing machine actually) are never light enough until a rule is put in place setting a minimum weight (and then additional optional parts can be added to achieve the minimum...power meters, GPS devices, etc). So lighter wheels/frames/components are always an objective for racing bikes.

Disk brakes don't offer a clearly superior advantage over rim brakes for most road racing situations (or enough to overcome possible disadvantages) so the adoption hasn't been universal. Same for direct mount brakes to a lesser extent. In mtb racing the opposite proves the point.

I think it's interesting that disk brakes have rendered v-brakes virtually obsolete but cantilevers are still a viable product. (for anything above entry level bikes and bmx, that is).

So not all of these improvements are solely a manufacturer's ploy to move more product. Racers seek out things that will give them an advantage. When that advantage is proven, the rest will adopt it to keep up. That's the essence of racing bikes, cars, motos, boats, etc.

[marciero]

I'm not sick of it but do find the term "gravel grinder" funny!

Especially if you live in Rhode Island, as I used to.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE]Man, things are really only going to get harder and harder for you on the disc brake front, especially if you think racing will be an area where you can make a point against them.

And unlike the notion that Campy doesn't care about being a part of the industry, Campy has jumped head first into electronic shifting and disc brakes in response to the market and in an effort to keep up.


I'm NOT 'making a point against them', just referring to a Velonews article about P-R.
'Only get harder and harder for you'..what does that mean? Don't have them, don't sell them, don't work on them...:)

I never said Campagnolo 'doesn't want to be part of the industry' either..just not the OEM robots that the 2 'S' brands are. Not a lot of EPS/HO OE bikes out there.

They are here, just not in droves at today's P-R(which is at the 155km to go point right now)...

[oldpotatoe]

The interesting part about the underlying intent of this thread is that if you look at Paris Roubaix and the harsh part of the course the only market segment that mimics is gravel bikes which are predominately disc.
That funny right there.

http://www.letelegramme.fr/images/2018/04/06/paris-roubaix-les-chiffres-de-la-reine-des-classiques_3891229.jpg

Those aren't disc brake bikes, are they?..Cofidis and Campag sponsored

[mcteague]

Those aren't disc brake bikes, are they?..Cofidis and Campag sponsored

From what I understand, it is all down to slower wheel changes. Hard to keep team cars close, in races like PR, so they just scatter mechanics holding spare wheels along the route. In races where they do use disks they seem to prefer to just swap bikes due to the time to replace the wheel.

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

Couple of guys in the lead group right now on discs..I'm sure they won't win....

->>>>:)

DELKO gent been sucking wheels for 50km..I'm sure cuz he's the only one on discs.

-->>>:)

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

My gravel bike is whatever bike I happen to be riding when I come across some gravel.

[Burnette]

I didn't miss the point. I just don't agree with you and I think your logic is flawed.

Specialized developed the Roubaix to appeal to enthusiast riders that were not comfortable with aggressive (ie 'race position') geometry road bikes. They added a few features (like Zertz) to reduce jarring from narrow high pressure wheels and then *named* it after a well-known race. Like a Pontiac LeMans. Then the *copy writers* created a story to associate the two.

I said that pro bikes used in P-R, Flanders, et al are different from the gravel bikes the manufacturers such as Specialized and Trek produce for consumers and I stand by that statement as well as supported it with examples. (and not marketing jargon)

Yes, Specialized and Trek produce 'endurance' bikes with longer wheelbases.
Yes, the pros may ride bikes with (relatively) longer wheelbases during the classics.
*BUT*, the pros don't ride the production endurance frames with the extended head tubes and upright riding positions. They ride frames with aggressive front geometry that is frequently not available (or not marketed) to consumers. They certainly don't have wheelbases or geometries that approach the granddaddy of gravel bikes, Rivendell.

Yes, the pros ride bikes that are capable of using wider tires.
*BUT* their bikes use rim brakes and the manufacturers aren't marketing these bikes as gravel road bikes - if they're selling them at all.

Rather than a 'convergence', the actual evolution is to hyper-specialization. Look at a pro race bike from the '70s. The same bike was used for all road going events, whether paved, dirt, gravel, time trial or mass start. Maybe a different set of tires were used depending on surface/event. Now look at the spectrum of bikes sold by the typical large manufacturer - and I'm referring only to 700c drop bar bikes. Do you need further exposition?

Maybe when everyone is missing the point, you should reconsider the point you're trying to make.

No, you're still missing the point, by mile too. I'll try and bring you back. First, you're don't understand "convergence", it's when two or more things evolve superficially similar characteristics under similar environmental conditions. Similar is the key word here and it's where you lose it.

Nobody said racing bikes and consumer bikes were necessarily one for one, there are differences, the point was that bike makers respond consumer needs and racer's needs and where they converge is the technology that the pros helped develop and that you can now buy at the store. You're stuck on the notion that you nay not be able to get an exact bike under a pro and that is missing the point entirely.

The reasons why just some pros aren't on disc was in the very link you yourself provided. It was a race rule for one team and neutral support issues for another. So it's a moot point what the pros do or don't ride when outside issues dictate a use, not whether something is better or not.

While we're here, lets kill another myth, the one where you think consumers want to buy what the pros ride. As stated before, the majority of cyclist, enthusiast cycling consumers in America couldn't tell you who the Tour De France last year or what bike brand he was one. Ask about three years and you lose even more who know. Now take Paris Roubaix. You lose even more who know who won that two years ago and no one will know what he was riding. Why do bike makers participate them? They use racing for ads because that's where all these cyclist who don't know who one are looking. They see an ad where the bike was at the tour or even won it.

And lastly it's funny that some can't get their head around the fact that a bike with disc brakes and suspension for crying out loud, that yes was developed through racing cobbles is a bike well suited for fire roads and gravel roads as well as asphalt. Convergence, it's easy to see when you understand how all this works with racing, bike makers and consumers.

[oldpotatoe]

While we're here, lets kill another myth, the one where you think consumers want to buy what the pros ride. As stated before, the majority of cyclist, enthusiast cycling consumers in America couldn't tell you who the Tour De France last year or what bike brand he was one. Ask about three years and you lose even more who know. Now take Paris Roubaix. You lose even more who know who won that two years ago and no one will know what he was riding. Why do bike makers participate them? They use racing for ads because that's where all these cyclist who don't know who one are looking. They see an ad where the bike was at the tour or even won it.

You say nobody, at least in the US, knows any pro or their bike, of the Euro bike racers and bikes and races..but you then say consumers see ads with the 'winning' bike and rider endorsing them..and use that info as a decision to buy...

People buy Chevys because some dude won Talledega too even tho they don't even know where Talledega is, but they do know 'NASCAR'....

The 'difference' is that the only thing 'Chevy' is the name and emblem and the $..from Chevy.

[Burnette]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2344015]




I'm NOT 'making a point against them', just referring to a Velonews article about P-R.
'Only get harder and harder for you'..what does that mean? Don't have them, don't sell them, don't work on them...:)

I never said Campagnolo 'doesn't want to be part of the industry' either..just not the OEM robots that the 2 'S' brands are. Not a lot of EPS/HO OE bikes out there.

They are here, just not in droves at today's P-R(which is at the 155km to go point right now)...

First and foremost you cherry pick articles in an attempt to prove a point and said articles once read prove actually disprove your point. Follow your material and thought process and you yourself can see that it is flawed. Look at your post above, it makes no logical sense. In your words about disc, "They are here, just not in droves at today's P-R(which is at the 155km to go point right now" is just funny. Again, to cherry pick a team not on them in a race hardly anybody watches proves no point to no one.

My statement that it will get harder on you as time goes by is because you chose disc as your rock to die on and the market and even racing will only continue to consume them.

Going forward if you wish to debate the merits of rim and disc racing is a poor vehicle. Racing does provide a platform for development but it's also a hype/marketing machine and a dope infested entertainment show. As I wrote before, the Tour De France is like a whore house that sells drugs in the back. The history books have blank pages and the rider best drugged and able to conceal it wins and consumers are oblivious as to who won it on what brand anyway. And Paris Roubaix is even more obscure.

[Burnette]

You say nobody, at least in the US, knows any pro or their bike, of the Euro bike racers and bikes and races..but you then say consumers see ads with the 'winning' bike and rider endorsing them..and use that info as a decision to buy...

People buy Chevys because some dude won Talledega too even tho they don't even know where Talledega is, but they do know 'NASCAR'....

The 'difference' is that the only thing 'Chevy' is the name and emblem and the $..from Chevy.

Ha! No. I live in NC and racing is all around me. Nobody is buying a Chevy because if what happened at Talledega. Tator, those days died long ago, read a but about NASCAR and the car market and you will see. I can link you some articles or have you go to your local Chevy dealer and let them tell you nobody is buying a Chevy because of a race on Sunday. You have a really outdated view about NASCAR and it's a bad look to anyone who keeps up with it.

[colker]

I think it's interesting that disk brakes have rendered v-brakes virtually obsolete but cantilevers are still a viable product. (for anything above entry level bikes and bmx, that is).

Really? I see companies discontinuing their canti brakes but i still can find cheap vees (which are good workhorses).

[Burnette]

You say nobody, at least in the US, knows any pro or their bike, .

Just for kicks on your next big group ride as everyone who will listen to you who is Niki Terpstra and what bike did he ride.

Then go to a few bike shops and when a customer comes in ask him/her the same thing.

[oldpotatoe]

Just for kicks on your next big group ride as everyone who will listen to you who is Niki Terpstra and what bike did he ride.

Then go to a few bike shops and when a customer comes in ask him/her the same thing.

I guess you choose to ignore my point..yes, few in the US know Euro Bike racing..and some don't know NASCAR...but both groups DO respond to those, 'pix of who won what and on(in) what'...ads...

[Burnette]

I guess you choose to ignore my point..yes, few in the US know Euro Bike racing..and some don't know NASCAR...but both groups DO respond to those, 'pix of who won what and on(in) what'...ads...

You thread was a lame attempt at a point not made. I mean, we're not preschoolers, did you think nobody would put together that you don't like disc and found an article where a team wasn't on them and you ran with that as if it were something?

Did you think we couldn't read the article and see that the reason why some weren't on disc was neutral support?

If you're going to keep this up, up your game and bring something the table. The original intent of the thread was wrong. Let's do better.

[oldpotatoe]

You thread was a lame attempt at a point not made. I mean, we're not preschoolers, did you think nobody would put together that you don't like disc and found an article where a team wasn't on them and you ran with that as if it were something?

Did you think we couldn't read the article and see that the reason why some weren't on disc was neutral support?

If you're going to keep this up, up your game and bring something the table. The original intent of the thread was wrong. Let's do better.

Thanks mom...always nice when it gets personal...:cool: About toys, no less...

HS debating team stuff I guess...bet you are great fun at a party

I'm tapping out--cya...you win!!!

[Burnette]

Thanks mom...always nice when it gets personal...:cool: About toys, no less...

HS debating team stuff I guess...bet you are great fun at a party

I'm tapping out--cya...

Catch ya on the next one.

[enr1co]

Thanks mom...always nice when it gets personal...:cool: About toys, no less...

HS debating team stuff I guess...bet you are great fun at a party

I'm tapping out--cya...you win!!!


W/ ya OP- tapped out and "ignore" on this one long ago - off to ride!:D

[Cicli]

I cant believe he won with rim brakes. I didnt think you could even ride a rim brake bike anymore.

[Matthew]

Thread after thread about something that slows/stops a bike. Ugh.

[Burnette]

I cant believe he won with rim brakes. I didnt think you could even ride a rim brake bike anymore.

The components across teams are so similar that they don't over ride the performance of the rider. It's a misnomer to use one race as a point of contention on component validation.

The real component story of the 2018 Paris Roubaix got buried way back in this thread, it was the rear derailleur.

[Cicli]

The real component story of the 2018 Paris Roubaix got buried way back in this thread, it was the rear derailleur.

I am going with the rider.

[Burnette]

Thread after thread about something that slows/stops a bike. Ugh.

It's the same guy who brings a convoluted argument and copies and pastes old myths. The purpose of the thread was obvious to anyone who has been here for a day.

My take is that we all do better and sure, we can debate it but at least be upfront about it opening the thread and for Pete's sake bring something new to it.

Again, all this did was take away attention from the real Paris Roubaix component story.

[Burnette]

I am going with the rider.

And I agree with you 100%. The components close enough to negate an advantage there. But there was a new component change that got buried in this mess.

[taz-t]

No, you're still missing the point, by mile too. I'll try and bring you back. First, you're don't understand "convergence", it's when two or more things evolve superficially similar characteristics under similar environmental conditions. Similar is the key word here and it's where you lose it.

Nobody said racing bikes and consumer bikes were necessarily one for one, there are differences, the point was that bike makers respond consumer needs and racer's needs and where they converge is the technology that the pros helped develop and that you can now buy at the store. You're stuck on the notion that you nay not be able to get an exact bike under a pro and that is missing the point entirely.

The reasons why just some pros aren't on disc was in the very link you yourself provided. It was a race rule for one team and neutral support issues for another. So it's a moot point what the pros do or don't ride when outside issues dictate a use, not whether something is better or not.

While we're here, lets kill another myth, the one where you think consumers want to buy what the pros ride. As stated before, the majority of cyclist, enthusiast cycling consumers in America couldn't tell you who the Tour De France last year or what bike brand he was one. Ask about three years and you lose even more who know. Now take Paris Roubaix. You lose even more who know who won that two years ago and no one will know what he was riding. Why do bike makers participate them? They use racing for ads because that's where all these cyclist who don't know who one are looking. They see an ad where the bike was at the tour or even won it.

And lastly it's funny that some can't get their head around the fact that a bike with disc brakes and suspension for crying out loud, that yes was developed through racing cobbles is a bike well suited for fire roads and gravel roads as well as asphalt. Convergence, it's easy to see when you understand how all this works with racing, bike makers and consumers.

I can see that we are just talking past each other - but you're rebutting points I didn't make. I never said all or most cyclist want to ride what the pros ride. Most non-specialist bike shops sell more hybrids or lower end mtbs than anything. But there is a group of race cycling enthusiasts that follow these things and it informs their purchase decisions.

And I disagree with this statement: "And lastly it's funny that some can't get their head around the fact that a bike with disc brakes and suspension for crying out loud, that yes was developed through racing cobbles is a bike well suited for fire roads and gravel roads as well as asphalt."

Disc brakes were developed for mtbs (very useful), adapted for cyclocross and then consumer road use (possibly useful depending on circumstances) and then pushed on to professional road cyclists (questionable utility) as shown by their lack of full adoption as I said previously. EPS/Di2 and carbon fiber usage are recent examples of race technology trickling down to consumer use. This is NOT convergence, it's the normal course of some race developed technology.

The keyword in your definition of convergence as 'superficially similar', is 'superficially' (a biological definition).

My definition of convergence is two items for unique tasks that evolve independently so that one item performs both tasks with equal proficiency, in this case cobble race bikes and gravel consumer bikes. And I still say they haven't converged. This would be a standard definition of convergence (things in the process of coming together).

I'll bow out, but with two snarky observations. P-R was won on a Specialized bike without disc brakes and Specialized's gravel/adventure bike, which has disc brakes, is called the 'Diverge'.

[Burnette]

I can see that we are just talking past each other - but you're rebutting points I didn't make. I never said all or most cyclist want to ride what the pros ride. Most non-specialist bike shops sell more hybrids or lower end mtbs than anything. But there is a group of race cycling enthusiasts that follow these things and it informs their purchase decisions.

And I disagree with this statement: "And lastly it's funny that some can't get their head around the fact that a bike with disc brakes and suspension for crying out loud, that yes was developed through racing cobbles is a bike well suited for fire roads and gravel roads as well as asphalt."

Disc brakes were developed for mtbs (very useful), adapted for cyclocross and then consumer road use (possibly useful depending on circumstances) and then pushed on to professional road cyclists (questionable utility) as shown by their lack of full adoption as I said previously. EPS/Di2 and carbon fiber usage are recent examples of race technology trickling down to consumer use. This is NOT convergence, it's the normal course of some race developed technology.

The keyword in your definition of convergence as 'superficially similar', is 'superficially' (a biological definition).

My definition of convergence is two items for unique tasks that evolve independently so that one item performs both tasks with equal proficiency, in this case cobble race bikes and gravel consumer bikes. And I still say they haven't converged. This would be a standard definition of convergence (things in the process of coming together).

I'll bow out, but with two snarky observations. P-R was won on a Specialized bike without disc brakes and Specialized's gravel/adventure bike, which has disc brakes, is called the 'Diverge'.

Who won Paris Roubaix on what means naught for consumers and without convergence racing wouldn't get sponsorship. Take care.

[choke]

Disc brakes were developed for mtbs (very useful), adapted for cyclocross and then consumer road use (possibly useful depending on circumstances) and then pushed on to professional road cyclists (questionable utility) as shown by their lack of full adoption as I said previously.The first commercially available bicycle discs that I'm aware of weren't made for MTBs. This is from a 1975 Shimano catalog....

[wildboar]

https://youtu.be/3bvmGBHqqW0?t=46

Q: The team doesn't use disc brakes. Why?

Yves: "If you got a flat tire it's faster to change your wheels. Sometimes the cars are very far in the back and people are standing next to the road with wheels...It's difficult if you need disc brakes, to change it goes a bit slower, and normal wheel is faster and everybody is used to it... It's better and faster."

[Burnette]

https://youtu.be/3bvmGBHqqW0?t=46

Q: The team doesn't use disc brakes. Why?

Yves: "If you got a flat tire it's faster to change your wheels. Sometimes the cars are very far in the back and people are standing next to the road with wheels...It's difficult if you need disc brakes, to change it goes a bit slower, and normal wheel is faster and everybody is used to it... It's better and faster."

You're right, we covered awhile back. Neutral support across the field is the issue, if all were o the same platform then they would have an even field.

On Pro road cycling the hold up is two fold. Some bike makers are behind on disc programs and all teams have to be on one platform not only for neutral support. Secondly when you have that many bikes inches apart you want them to stop at the same rate. That's the biggest hurdle now, getting all manufactures and teams to agree to flip the switch all on way, then neutral support becomes a non issue.

I personally wouldn't care if they carried on with rim brakes in racing. Disc will be developed and sold regardless of what happens in racing. Racing is shown to be a laggard currently due to rules and bicycle maker's constraints and those have nothing to do with worth or validity of use in racing.

[chiasticon]

“But in Paris-Roubaix? In a race like this, you shouldn’t be braking anyway,” said one of Quick-Step’s four leaders Zdenek Stybar.this coming from the guy with an extra set of brake levers installed on his bar tops.

[Davist]

So, here's the future from 46 years ago , 1x drive train? check, disc? check (drum in front, oh well), room for wider tires? check - '72 Krate in Orange, I'm guessing it's a Molteni tribute, right? :)
https://thecabe.com/forum/attachments/girlsvintage031-1-jpg.505583/

[oldpotatoe]

So, here's the future from 46 years ago , 1x drive train? check, disc? check (drum in front, oh well), room for wider tires? check - '72 Krate in Orange, I'm guessing it's a Molteni tribute, right? :)
https://thecabe.com/forum/attachments/girlsvintage031-1-jpg.505583/

Front suspension too!!! Ahead of its time!!!

[fignon's barber]

So, here's the future from 46 years ago , 1x drive train? check, disc? check (drum in front, oh well), room for wider tires? check - '72 Krate in Orange, I'm guessing it's a Molteni tribute, right? :)
https://thecabe.com/forum/attachments/girlsvintage031-1-jpg.505583/


....and look at those welds!

[El Chaba]

....I'll bet it weighed less than most Paramounts...

[enr1co]

So, here's the future from 46 years ago , 1x drive train? check, disc? check (drum in front, oh well), room for wider tires? check - '72 Krate in Orange, I'm guessing it's a Molteni tribute, right? :)
https://thecabe.com/forum/attachments/girlsvintage031-1-jpg.505583/

Dayummm- this was my dream bike! My friend got one these back when in 7th grade/ early seventies. Myself and the rest of the kids in the Navy housing drooled over it. We thought his parents must’ve been loaded as you couldnt buy these at the Navy Exchange but at an off-base Schwinn shop for $$$.
Sad thing was, he didnt take care of, left it outdoors and after a year of Hawaii rain showers and salt air exposure, it was wasted after a little over a yr.

[bikinchris]

https://youtu.be/3bvmGBHqqW0?t=46

Q: The team doesn't use disc brakes. Why?

Yves: "If you got a flat tire it's faster to change your wheels. Sometimes the cars are very far in the back and people are standing next to the road with wheels...It's difficult if you need disc brakes, to change it goes a bit slower, and normal wheel is faster and everybody is used to it... It's better and faster."

So they are saying their riders are not very good?
Eddy Merckx was racing PR when he had a flat and a new, young mechanic was the closest support car. He rushes out to change the front wheel and he is so nervous that he is fumbling with everything, brakes, quick release. Eddy notices he is nervous.

Eddy puts his hand on the mechanic's shoulder and says "Don't worry, take your time and do it right. I can catch them."

I guess this team can't catch them if they fumble with a disc brake for an additional 1/2 second.

[Mark McM]

So they are saying their riders are not very good?
Eddy Merckx was racing PR when he had a flat and a new, young mechanic was the closest support car. He rushes out to change the front wheel and he is so nervous that he is fumbling with everything, brakes, quick release. Eddy notices he is nervous.

Eddy puts his hand on the mechanic's shoulder and says "Don't worry, take your time and do it right. I can catch them."

I guess this team can't catch them if they fumble with a disc brake for an additional 1/2 second.

I think it comes down more to this portion that you quoted:

Sometimes the cars are very far in the back and people are standing next to the road with wheels...

In other words, its not that swapping a disc brake wheel takes longer, its the availability of a compatible wheel. For rim brakes, nearly all wheels are currently intercompatible, but this is not so for disc brakes at present. There are multiple axle standards, multiple rotor diameters, and rotor offsets have not been standardized. To guarantee wheel compatibility, disc brake users must get service from their own team cars (which may not be anywhere near by), whereas rim brake users can use the nearest available neutral service.

[Tony]

So, here's the future from 46 years ago , 1x drive train? check, disc? check (drum in front, oh well), room for wider tires? check - '72 Krate in Orange, I'm guessing it's a Molteni tribute, right? :)
https://thecabe.com/forum/attachments/girlsvintage031-1-jpg.505583/

Looks like some sort of rear suspension too!!

[Davist]

Looks like some sort of rear suspension too!!

Good eye, Tony, it does! guaranteed to make the front seat mounting bolt creak... Oh and the springs in the back creak, too.. One of the kids in the neighborhood had one, looked super cool, but, well the ride wasn't there. We were late to the party on this, that poor guy got his in the spring and that summer we stripped all the fenders, streamers and banana seats off all our bikes and made them into "BMX" looking bikes (about '77 maybe?)