Dedacciai Zero Vs Columbus Spirit

[dpk501]

Reaching out to the many steel experts here!

What's the potential ride quality/weight difference with Dedacciai Zero tube vs Columbus Spirit? Is one lighter or stiffer?

Thanks in advance!

[oldpotatoe]

Reaching out to the many steel experts here!

What's the potential ride quality/weight difference with Dedacciai Zero tube vs Columbus Spirit? Is one lighter or stiffer?

Thanks in advance!

Paging Mr Kirk,Mr LLewellyn, other frame makers!! Sorry, didn't include right below..Mr Estlund...

[EricEstlund]

The tube sets are fairly similar, and both offer a range of size options. Assuming the bike was built exactly the same dimensions from one or the other it would be nearly indistinguishable. That said, all things are never equal, and the design and execution will trump small material differences for ride quality.

[8aaron8]

I agree with what Eric said and will add that most of the high end steel is comparable. What builders look for are tubing OD, wall thickness and butt lengths to give the desired ride quality the client wants.

[zross312]

So then, does the actual steel formulation matter at all if the tuning profiles are identical? I know Columbus just announced their new "Omnicrom" steel, but I can't seem to find any detailed info about the difference between it and Nivacrom.

I agree with what Eric said and will add that most of the high end steel is comparable. What builders look for are tubing OD, wall thickness and butt lengths to give the desired ride quality the client wants.

[Blown Reek]

So then, does the actual steel formulation matter at all if the tuning profiles are identical? I know Columbus just announced their new "Omnicrom" steel, but I can't seem to find any detailed info about the difference between it and Nivacrom.

No.

[GregL]

This thread reminds me of a "Bicycle Guide" article dating back about 20 years. They had a builder make several steel frames of identical geometry out of different tubing. Their testers rode all the frames with identical components/wheels and ranked them from first to last. IIRC, the testers could not discern any difference based on the cost/quality of the frame tubing. Wish I had kept that article!

Greg

[marinoni62]

I think this was the article in Bicycle Guide

http://www.thetallcyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Bicycle-Guide-Magnificent-Seven-Test.pdf

[GregL]

I think this was the article in Bicycle Guide

http://www.thetallcyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Bicycle-Guide-Magnificent-Seven-Test.pdf
Thanks for the link! That's the article that I remember. It helped convince me to by a Mondonico-built Torelli frame. That bike has been the benchmark by which I have measured every road bike since 1997. My bikes have certainly gotten lighter, but I can't think of any that rode better.

Greg

[Mark McM]

So then, does the actual steel formulation matter at all if the tuning profiles are identical? I know Columbus just announced their new "Omnicrom" steel, but I can't seem to find any detailed info about the difference between it and Nivacrom.

Different alloys may allow tubes to be shaped differently. For example, stronger alloys may allow thinner walls or bigger butt differentials. But as a more direct answer to your question, two steel tubes of the same dimensions will have the same mechanical properties (or at least those properties that affect ride, such as stiffness, weight and damping).

[8aaron8]

Different alloys may allow tubes to be shaped differently. For example, stronger alloys may allow thinner walls or bigger butt differentials. But as a more direct answer to your question, two steel tubes of the same dimensions will have the same mechanical properties (or at least those properties that affect ride, such as stiffness, weight and damping).

Returning late to the thread, but it seems I have nothing more to add. A good example of the above is the variation in stainless tubing vs non-stainless. You can get a lighter frame (marginally) with the stainless tubing because it can be drawn thinner, but the ride quality is going to be the same.

[fignon's barber]

What builders look for are tubing OD, wall thickness and butt lengths to give the desired ride quality the client wants.


I'm just a consumer, not a builder, but I'd agree. All about diameter and wall thickness. The modern oversize steel tubes feel quite different than the old skinny tubes with thicker walls. The old tubes (like Columbus SL) soak up more road buzz, while the newer tubes like Spirit are lighter/stiffer but with a bit more road vibration.

[colker]

I'm just a consumer, not a builder, but I'd agree. All about diameter and wall thickness. The modern oversize steel tubes feel quite different than the old skinny tubes with thicker walls. The old tubes (like Columbus SL) soak up more road buzz, while the newer tubes like Spirit are lighter/stiffer but with a bit more road vibration.

Does EL OS stand in the middle soaking up the punishment but able to respond when you pedal while being light(er) at 1750grs per frame?

[oldpotatoe]

This thread reminds me of a "Bicycle Guide" article dating back about 20 years. They had a builder make several steel frames of identical geometry out of different tubing. Their testers rode all the frames with identical components/wheels and ranked them from first to last. IIRC, the testers could not discern any difference based on the cost/quality of the frame tubing. Wish I had kept that article!

Greg

Torelli..the testers rated Thron the highest...:eek:

[unterhausen]

seems like there were a few of those blind road tests back in the day. I recall that one test the Columbus SL won, as is only proper.

I really like my Columbus Spirit for Lugs bike. I have no desire to try anything stouter than that. Maybe if I was tall and strong instead of just being fat. In reality though, I'm not strong enough any more to feel much difference between my old SL bike and my SfL bike. This is why I would usually defer to builder preference. My next frame is going to be the reincarnated Columbus SL

[dpk501]

seems like there were a few of those blind road tests back in the day. I recall that one test the Columbus SL won, as is only proper.

I really like my Columbus Spirit for Lugs bike. I have no desire to try anything stouter than that. Maybe if I was tall and strong instead of just being fat. In reality though, I'm not strong enough any more to feel much difference between my old SL bike and my SfL bike. This is why I would usually defer to builder preference. My next frame is going to be the reincarnated Columbus SL

Reincarnated SL??

[marciero]

As has been stated, it's the dimensions, and butting profiles that will make these tubesets ride differently, rather than the alloy composition. My sense is that outside diameter probably has the greatest influence; more than wall thickness, for example

The butting profiles and other specs for some of these seem to be available by googling.

[colker]

Reincarnated SL??

Yup. It´s around. You don´t need to buy at ebay anymore a used 80s bike to feel the magic.

[lhuerta]

Reincarnated SL??

...in about 2011 or 2012-ish, Columbus reintroduced Max, Mini Max and SL and adopted their "fine grain Niobium doped tubes" metallurgic structure. The reintroduced/legacy tubes have the same butting and diameters as the original tubes ("evergreen specifications updated to new technologies and alloys") but now made with Niobium, which presumably has increased their strength (e.g. hardness, elasticity, etc) and decreased weight a bit.

As of 2018, Columbus is now phasing in their new Omnicrom metallurgy (a revamp of Niobium) into all their higher end tube sets, supposedly increasing hardness and heat/weld resistance.

You can go to Columbus and Deda websites and download catalogs that have all the detailed specs.
Lou

[dpk501]

...in about 2011 or 2012-ish, Columbus reintroduced Max, Mini Max and SL and adopted their "fine grain Niobium doped tubes" metallurgic structure. The reintroduced/legacy tubes have the same butting and diameters as the original tubes ("evergreen specifications updated to new technologies and alloys") but now made with Niobium, which presumably has increased their strength (e.g. hardness, elasticity, etc) and decreased weight a bit.

As of 2018, Columbus is now phasing in their new Omnicrom metallurgy (a revamp of Niobium) into all their higher end tube sets, supposedly increasing hardness and heat/weld resistance.

You can go to Columbus and Deda websites and download catalogs that have all the detailed specs.
Lou

Interesting. What is this anti-dent treatment Columbus has?

[unterhausen]

it's not really anti-dent, the steel is just stronger now than it was back in the '70s and '80s. Which has the effect of making it harder to dent. High strength steel and heat treating vs. no heat treating makes a big difference.

[cmg]

I have a Independent Fabrication SSR frame that is stiffer than the other steel frames I have had. It also feels as light or close to the ti frames I own. I credit the head tube height as to having something to do with stiffer ride feel. the Independent has a taller head tube than the other steel frame. So in my opinion frame geometry/design has more to do than a specific set of pipes. Love the ride of the independent fab.

[lhuerta]

I credit the head tube height as to having something to do with stiffer ride feel. the Independent has a taller head tube than the other steel frame. [/QUOTE]

...most likely NOT as headtube length has to be considered in concert with BB drop and a variety of other factors.

So in my opinion frame geometry/design has more to do than a specific set of pipes.

...YES, this one is on point!