Compact or Not

[mso]

I'm considering the move to a 50/34 compact crank. I'm a strong very lightweight (112lb) female climber currently using a 13/26. I definetly spin out with the 13 on the down hills which is frustrating and could get some help on that end with a compact. Today I did 50 miles my birthday ride (we ride our age can't wait for 80 :-)) and 6,000 feet of climbing. I'm thinking a compact would be more comfortable.

[Smiley]

my wife a spinner loves her's and it saved me from making her double into a triple. If you like to spin, it should be just fine , if you like to always push a bigger gear , maybe not .

[gasman]

I like my compact 50/34 but they aren't for everyone. At age 52 I would rather spin than mash and I like hills. I run a 11/23 cassette and don't spin out until 40 + mph.

[rustychisel]

Well, I have to say you shouldn't be 'mashing' at all, of course... your question is ostensibly about keeping a 'top end' gear whilst using a compact crank setup.

The answer is to use a compact (say 50~34) with a 12~25 or 11~25 cassette. This would give enhanced low gears and a slightly higher top end gear, albeit with less overlap gears.

My partner, who is about your age, loves her Campag 50~34 and 12~26, and like you, her intial reservations were about having sufficient top end gearing because she too loves belting down a slope.


Edit:

Oh, and Sandy's assessment here http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=16079
is one of the most eloquent I've read. I use my front derailleur a lot more than I used to on 53~39 and have no problem with that. It makes good sense for my style of riding.

[Samster]

48/34 x 11/21. it can tackle any hill out in western MO. i like the combo, atmo.

[Dave]

I asume you now have a 53/39 with that 13-26 (Campy 10?). A compact will not help the downhill spinout unless you use an 11T cog. A 50/12 is hardly any different than your 53/13. If you use Campy, you can get more low gear with a 13-29 cassette. It is also possible to change cogs to make a 12-29, but the 16T cog is lost and the 15-17 cogs won't be properly timed for the best shifting.

The only combination that would provide more low gearing and more top gear would be an 11-25 with the 50/34. Your lowest gear would then be the same a a 39/29. This has two disadvantages. You lose the 16T cog that most riders consider important and the wide spaced 50/34 requires one more cog to be shifted every tme a shift is made between the chainrings, to produce the same gearing progression. A 53/39 requires 2-3 cog shifts and a 50/34 will require 3-4. Three cogs is no problem, but 4 cogs larger requires a double swing of the lever.

I ride the Colorado mountains and prefer a 53/39/28 triple with a 12-25. I don't lose top gear and my low gear is like a 39/35.

[crossjunkee]

and agree with what Dave has to say. To use the 13/29 rear cassette with a 53/39 front, you'll need a mid cage rear derailer.

[dauwhe]

I find coasting to be one of the great pleasures of cycling in hilly regions.

My bikes have a 46 x 12 top gear, but I'm not sure I've ever used it.

I did rent a bike in Colorado a few weeks ago, and it was kind of fun pedalling downhill at 30+ mph with a tailwind and a 52-tooth chainring. But not once in my life have I felt I didn't have a large-enough gear. I'll just say I've wished for lower gears more than once :)

Of course, we all have different likes and needs. I admire those folks with 11 x 23 cassettes. Maybe I'll even be one of you in another life :)

Dave

[Dan Oakland]

Hi gang.
I was with Michelle on that ride yesterday. She can sure climb.
The ride up to Palomar Mt here in San Diego is about 15 miles and 5000' of climbing
My problem is a little different. I'm running a Campy Record 10 speed triple with a 12/29 on the Legend. I'm 59, weigh 185 and ride with a prosthetic limb. Nothing but hills in North San Diego County Inland. The triple is a pain in the butt. Can never really get it to shift properly or as precisely as my double.
So yesterday I decided not to drop down below the 30/26 which would be similiar to a 34/29. But towards the top of the climb we hit some 10%-11% grades. I was a bit tired and bailed out to the 30/29 for a time. If it wasn't there I would have simply come out of the saddle and eased up. In other words I got lazy ...because I could.
I like the added precision of the CD. But I'm not sure if I should drop the 30/29 bail out gear that the triple provides..
Dan

[Bittersweet]

See if there is a way you can try a compact, either a friends or your LBS. Use it for a week doing your typical riding. In my view where it is a hinderance is if you are riding in a fast pack on the flats and want to sprint out of that group. Or this same scenario and you are racing. In these circumstances there is not enough top end. If you are a solo rider that averages about 20mph over these 50 mile rides you may not be hindered by it and may like the set up for the range it gives you. It is very hard to give advice as so much is determined by your speed, cadence, terrain, racing or not.

My personal experience is that I made the switch to compact this summer and like it so far. I ride solo, 180mm crankarms, spin avg 90 cadence, avg 19-20mph, frequently ride climbs with 10-14% inclines. I'm using a 48/34 and 12-27 cassette. I can ride almost all the time in the 48, in the meat of the cassette, and never cross chain. One of the issues I heard was constant back and forth between the big and small ring. I just muscle the 48 instead of downshifting. 48x12 is almost the same as the old 52x13 which was enough for me back then and now. I rarely need much more than the 34x23 but on occasion beyond 14% grade use the 25 and 27. If I spin out I start tucking and on my usual routes have a couple of +50mph areas. All this is fine solo as you're not looking for that small increment of 53x12 to keep up or move ahead in a group. Where it is a disadvantages is in a competitive fast group for breakaway or sprint efforts. I ride solo so this rarely comes into play. My guess is if you average 25mph solo, or more, you wouldn't even be asking the question of going to compact anyway.

[Ken Robb]

Hi Dan--long-time-no-see. At the risk of yet another c vs. s war I want to say that my s triples shift as well as my c doubles. Maybe c just doesn't "get" triples and the sissies who need them (moi). I have never ridden a c triple. My C compact works as well as my s compact. You can try them all.

[Jeremy]

Mso,

Assuming that you have a 53/39 double and a 700c wheelset, your current gear range in inches is 40.5-110. With respect to Dave's correct observations, there is an option that increases your high and low range w/o the possibly excessive 16T jump up front. If you use a 34/48 with an 11-25, your gear range in inches would be 36.7-117.8. This really is a full gear higher and lower than you currently have. You do lose the 16T cog, but I am always puzzled why people think this matters when you are changing the chainring size up front. Even if you love the 53/16 gear, a 50/15 duplicates it, and a 48/15 is close.

Jeremy

[tv_vt]

Reading this thread, I'm just wondering - who makes an 11-25 cassette? Is there a 9 speed version of this? And who makes a 180mm length compact crank? Not any of the big names, for sure.

Thanks,

Thom

[Jeremy]

Reading this thread, I'm just wondering - who makes an 11-25 cassette? Is there a 9 speed version of this? And who makes a 180mm length compact crank? Not any of the big names, for sure.

Thanks,

Thom

Campy offers an 11-25 10sp cassette. Sram offers an 11-26 9sp or 10sp cassette. IRD offers an 11-28 9sp or 10sp cassette. Tune,
Specialties TA, Stronglight (I'm pretty sure) and Leonard Zinn offer 180mm x 110mm BCD cranks.

Jeremy

[Bittersweet]

tv-vt: we discussed this with Too Tall on another thread. I have a 180mm Stronglight Z'light compact. TA makes a Carmina up to 185mm. TT rides a DaVinci in 180mm.

[tv_vt]

Bittersweet - I remember your help and TT's. I was just checking to see if any new 2007 models may have come out. It's frustrating to me to not have any models that use the outboard bearings or even octalink. The DaVinci's use square taper BBs (don't know if Campy will work, though) and the Stronglights use isis bbs. I have seen only mixed reviews of isis bbs in general. I was hoping the new Campy cranks would have a compact 180 offering, but there's nothing longer than 175 from Shimano, Campy, FSA and most other mfrs.

T

[CNY rider]

Hi Dan--long-time-no-see. At the risk of yet another c vs. s war I want to say that my s triples shift as well as my c doubles. Maybe c just doesn't "get" triples and the sissies who need them (moi). I have never ridden a c triple. My C compact works as well as my s compact. You can try them all.


Ken, I"m with you. There's an Ultegra 9 spd triple on my Legend, which was set up by the shop, and works perfectly.

I"ve since installed 9 and 10 speed Shimano triples on my other bikes. I assure you I am no technical whiz, and I have been able to get them to shift flawlessly. There's no reason they should work any worse than a double.

[Bittersweet]

Bittersweet - I remember your help and TT's. I was just checking to see if any new 2007 models may have come out. It's frustrating to me to not have any models that use the outboard bearings or even octalink. The DaVinci's use square taper BBs (don't know if Campy will work, though) and the Stronglights use isis bbs. I have seen only mixed reviews of isis bbs in general. I was hoping the new Campy cranks would have a compact 180 offering, but there's nothing longer than 175 from Shimano, Campy, FSA and most other mfrs.

T

Regarding Isis I think the short story is use the ChroMo spindle and not titanium and you will be OK. Outboard bearings in my view are new thing but not necessarily a better thing. They are stiffer but have more friction. I don't know how powerful you are and thus if this really matters. I had a DA10 crank prior to this compact and haven't noticed a perceptible stiffness change but I'm only 168lbs.

I looked when Campy came out with their '07 line and at others this fall and have found no new 180mm arm offerings for compact.

[Dan Oakland]

Hi Dan--long-time-no-see. At the risk of yet another c vs. s war I want to say that my s triples shift as well as my c doubles. Maybe c just doesn't "get" triples and the sissies who need them (moi). I have never ridden a c triple. My C compact works as well as my s compact. You can try them all.

Hi Ken.
Good to see you again. Haven't been in this board for a while. I see you are still powering up the inside of Torrey Pines.
I have a Shamano 50/34 compact double on my steel IF backup ride. Has a 12/27. It would be fine for outside Torrey Pine. And inside as well as long as it didn't go more than 1-2 miles further.
I would have needed a 34/29 or equivalent on Palomar MT. yesterday. That's why I took the Legend triple. It just wont stay in the 26 or 29 cog very well.
My very best experience with a triple was an Ultegra 9 speed years ago. Have not had the same luck with DuraAce or Campy triple. Many people don't have the problems I am experience. Most likely operator error.
Dan

[Ti Designs]

Focus on the rider, not the equipment...

[Dave]

Hi gang.
The triple is a pain in the butt. Can never really get it to shift properly or as precisely as my double.
Dan


I'd say you need an an experienced mechanic to check out your bike. There is absolutely no reason to have poor shifting with a Campy triple. The only shift that I find to be a bit slow is the shift from my 28T little ring to the 39T middle ring. The others are no different than a double -very fast and precise. If you climb seated most of the time, you can shift into the little ring at the start of the climb and never shift out of it until the top. For me than can be 10-30 miles in the little ring.

I actually use FSA cranks because I don't like Campy's 52/42/30. I use a 53/39/28 with a 12-25.

The key to the best front shifting is getting the cable tension correct. If done properly, it takes one sweep of the finger lever (5 clicks) to make the shift from the little ring to the middle ring. Once the chain is on the middle ring, a click of the thumb button is then required to recenter the FD cage. Of course the cage must be set the the right height and parallel to the big ring. The low limit screw must also be set accurately to avoid dropping the chain off to the left.

As for the Campy versus Shimano question, Campy's ergo lever provide better control of the FD cage than Shimano. A total of seven clicks are used to control a triple FD. Every click is the same, with no "soft" or partial trim clicks.

I recommend the new Campy ultra narrow chain for the very best shifting, but a Shimano 10 chain also works quite well. I just setup my second bike for easy riding in the late and early season, with a 53/39/28 crank, 13-29 cassette, long cage RD and a Shimano 10 chain. The shifting has been quite good, although I have yet to use the 28/29. Lately, I've been using my little ring far less than usual. I've found that the fastest way up a mountain (for me) is to pedal standing, particularly through the steepest sections. When standing, I rarely need anything lower than a 39/23, until I sit down and spin. Then I shift immediately to the 28T little ring without shifting any cogs. It's usually a good transition from standing to seated climbing. If I choose to take it easy, then I ride seated for the entire climb.

[Dan Oakland]

[QUOTE=Dave]I'd say you need an an experienced mechanic to check out your bike.

Thanks Dave.
You could be right. I called an experience Campy wrench and descibed the latest problem. Chain dropping down off my 29 and 26 tooths when out of the saddle. He said it it sounded like a defective rear derailler shifter. He advised that I send the shifter back to Campy for rebuilding.
Dan

[Jeff N.]

I'm one of those folks who believe that if it can't get done with a 39/53 and a 12-25, then it ain't gonna get done. Jeff N.

[Jeremy]

I'm one of those folks who believe that if it can't get done with a 39/53 and a 12-25, then it ain't gonna get done. Jeff N.

What is the point of a remark like this?

Jeremy

[Vancouverdave]

SRAM sells an 11-26 9 speed Shimano compatible cassette. Also, check the IRD brand of cassettes; I think they have a Campy 10 equivalent 11-25 or 26.

[Ray]

I'm one of those folks who believe that if it can't get done with a 39/53 and a 12-25, then it ain't gonna get done. Jeff N.
Right, so Roberto Heras wasn't actually using a triple to get up the Angrilu in the Vuelta a couple of years ago?

There are a lot of riders who can do just about any riding they'd care to do with a 39x25 low gear. And there are a lot of us who can't. So should we be banned from riding? Or do you just reserve the right to call us wimps?

Just wondering,

-Ray

[Bittersweet]

I'm one of those folks who believe that if it can't get done with a 39/53 and a 12-25, then it ain't gonna get done. Jeff N.

I've got a call into Danielson, appears his Mt. Washington record is in jeopardy.

[Gseiler]

Bittersweet - I remember your help and TT's. I was just checking to see if any new 2007 models may have come out. It's frustrating to me to not have any models that use the outboard bearings or even octalink. The DaVinci's use square taper BBs (don't know if Campy will work, though) and the Stronglights use isis bbs. I have seen only mixed reviews of isis bbs in general. I was hoping the new Campy cranks would have a compact 180 offering, but there's nothing longer than 175 from Shimano, Campy, FSA and most other mfrs.

T

I am riding a seviceable set of 180mm compact cranks with a Giga X Pipe bottom bracket. Truvative makes a 110 BCD Roleur in a 7075 aluminum with 180mm arms and the GXP bottom bracket (2007). The sizing is great and shifting is better than my previous set of 110BCD cranks from another vendor. I enhanced their performance with a new set of bearings and I am sure these will stay on my primary road bike for a long time, especially if they are the only product in the category. I would have purchased a higher end crank like the Force, DuraAce, Record, or K-Force if they made something like this. I got mine at my LBS. I have seen them on-line at Speedgoat.

[Bruce K]

I have recently "upgraded" my road compacts to a 36 tooth inner ring and find that I am liking it MUCH better.

With a 12-25 cassette I find that I can comfortably ride at 19+ in the 36-12 without sacrificing climbing. As for top end 30ish is about it for the 50-12.

BK

[CNY rider]

I have recently "upgraded" my road compacts to a 36 tooth inner ring and find that I am liking it MUCH better.

With a 12-25 cassette I find that I can comfortably ride at 19+ in the 36-12 without sacrificing climbing. As for top end 30ish is about it for the 50-12.

BK

Interesting.
I could never get my compact to work well in the 36/25 combo. Always noisy, cross chain ratttle.

what's the secret?

[Ti Designs]

There are a lot of riders who can do just about any riding they'd care to do with a 39x25 low gear. And there are a lot of us who can't. So should we be banned from riding? Or do you just reserve the right to call us wimps?


In many ways the lower gears seen on bikes in the last 15 years is a good thing - as Ray said, there are lots of people who need the lower gearing or they wouldn't be riding. Along the same lines, I think cell phones are a good idea for being in communication, but humans are lazy and there's a whole generation of people who can't think 'cause it's too easy to call someone else. Gearing and cycling is very much the same, give people lower and lower gears and they forget how to ride on power. I feel that part of being a good rider is the ability to both spin a small gear or push a large one, take one away and you're limiting yourself.

[RPS]

One minor advantage of a compact over a standard 53/39 is that it makes the cassette one gear closer to a straight block provided all ratios are kept approximately the same.

As an example, comparing two near-identical set ups (except for rounding off of numbers):

53/39 with 12-25 cassette versus 49/36 with 11-23 cassette

11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23

12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-25

I think this holds true for most cassettes of near-equal total gear range.

[marle]

Keep the 13x26 cassette and go compact. :beer:

[chuckred]

In many ways the lower gears seen on bikes in the last 15 years is a good thing - as Ray said, there are lots of people who need the lower gearing or they wouldn't be riding. Along the same lines, I think cell phones are a good idea for being in communication, but humans are lazy and there's a whole generation of people who can't think 'cause it's too easy to call someone else. Gearing and cycling is very much the same, give people lower and lower gears and they forget how to ride on power. I feel that part of being a good rider is the ability to both spin a small gear or push a large one, take one away and you're limiting yourself.

My old Paramount from college days has a low of 42x21 I think (5 speed freewheel). I was able to ride anything in Colorado back then.

Went to 53/39 x 23-12 9 speed 7 years ago... moved back to Colorado 4 years ago and moved to 26. Now moving to compact...

Not so much that I need to yet, although there are times when I think I'll be glad for just one lower gear or two...

[Bruce K]

CNY;

Iwould have thought you would have trouble with the 36-12 not the 36-25.

I am not sure why I don't have any chain rattle, rubbing, or crossover issues but the setups work well on both bikes with no issues.

BK

[Ray]

Now moving to compact...

Not so much that I need to yet, although there are times when I think I'll be glad for just one lower gear or two...
Key point. A lot of us who have low gears on our bikes very rarely use them. I generally have a 34x34 low on my road bike and a 24x32 low on my touring bike but I rarely use anything lower than about a 34x23 and almost never lower than 34x26. But ALMOST is the key word there. When I hit a reasonably short 15-20% climb when I'm in shape and reasonably fresh, I'll generally take it in the 34x26, stand up, and grunt over it. But if I'm near the end of a century, or it's mid-winter and my *** is lardier than normal, or on the fourth day of a week long tour and hit the same hill, or if it's a looong stretch of steep, I might just use the lowest gear I can find. I've used the 34x34 on a couple of brutal hills at mile 80+ on centuries and been right with the crowd (the slowish crowd, but that's who I always ride with) with a lot less pain. I've been several days into tours a number of times when a lot of riders were struggling up some very long and steep climbs in their 30x25 road triples and I was going faster and having an easier time of it in a 24x26 or 24x30. I'm not claiming I was going faster than a snail, just faster than a bunch of people without adequately low gears for the level of terrain and fatigue. I don't generally spin that easily, but when I need to, I really really really need to. And I've never even ONCE been sorry I had the option available.

-Ray

[chuckred]

Where is that... ?

I lived in Lower Merion - 95 - 2002 ...

Some nice riding in the area!

[Ray]

Where is that... ?

I lived in Lower Merion - 95 - 2002 ...

Some nice riding in the area!
I'm out in West Chester and, yeah, I love the riding around here. Also great riding in Colorado, although I think I'd spend a lot of time on a fatter tire bike out there with all of those amazing dirt roads. You have waaaaay longer climbs but we generally have steeper ones.

-Ray

[CNY rider]

Major brain cramp on that last post Bruce.

Sorry bout that.

I WAS thinking about the cross chaining in the 36/12.

Good thing it's the weekend. :beer: