Terpstra's Position, Flanders 2018

[Peter P.]

Anyone notice Terpstra's position on the bike in Flanders?

Looks like he's running his seatpost with a FORWARD offset or zero offset, and the seat is forward on the rails.

Comments?

Go to roughly 6:50 or 11:00 on the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI_-KEK99ek

[fa63]

He has been riding like that for years. Clearly it works for him.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/9a93d787b1ac7f0af82979a08930b718.jpg

[macaroon]

It's been covered fairly recently

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2286300#post2286300

[skouri1]

when you look at him riding, it is literally a time trial position adapted to the road bike.
makes sense, given that he's been winning with long breakaways... Sagan chasing him really didn't look like he had a chance yesterday.

[earlfoss]

Looks fast, goes fast. Glad to see that he's backed up his Roubaix win with another monument.

[notsew]

That looks magnificently uncomfortable. I wonder how many days it takes him to regain feeling in his bits.




PS dude is fast, mad respect for fast. Lucky for me I don't need to go that fast.

[jpritchet74]

I had a few years that I had my road position like that - it was fast for sure, but being that my power profile is all sprinter the position didn't do much. If I had the power to be a break away rider it would have been great, but in that position it was very quad dominant and at the end of a race my quads were so done that I couldn't sprint. At all.

So I am back to having ~5-6 cm of saddle offset. Fresh quads at the end of races that way.

[earlfoss]

I had a few years that I had my road position like that - it was fast for sure, but being that my power profile is all sprinter the position didn't do much. If I had the power to be a break away rider it would have been great, but in that position it was very quad dominant and at the end of a race my quads were so done that I couldn't sprint. At all.

So I am back to having ~5-6 cm of saddle offset. Fresh quads at the end of races that way.

I had a somewhat similar experience to yours for the season I moved my position further forward. I'm back to a more traditional 6 cm of saddle offset again. My "mpg" has definitely gone up as I'm using glutes, quads, and hamstrings in concert much more than in the more radical position.

[ultraman6970]

Wonder if the bike wants him to sit like that. Easy to check, find an old picture of the dude in another brand.


Hmm interesting, back 2013 at milram he was riding colnago and he was seating at least 3 cm further back, then he was using focus bikes the same.

He is going Tom Bonnen's position now for some reason.

[avalonracing]

I'm still all about the forward position. I don't care what anyone says, current STA are too slack. Bring back the 74ºSTA on large bikes!

[nobuseri]

Sounds like you're destined for one of the Allez Sprint framesets. I haven't checked the new Tarmac, but it may fall somewhat close to that. :beer:

I'm still all about the forward position. I don't care what anyone says, current STA are too slack. Bring back the 74ºSTA on large bikes!

[Fivethumbs]

Isn't that what Phil and Paul call being "On the rivet?"

[Peter P.]

Thanks for the comments, especially pritchet74 and earlfoss.

Since most riders, especially european racers, find a position using a typical setback post and a frame with common angles, I wonder why Terpstra is running a quad dominant position. Usually this type of position is for time trials and time trial bikes; I would expect this is not a comfortable position for european racing (long classics, stage racing), however I won't dispute Terpstra has been successful in that position.

As has been experienced by others here, a similar, quad-dominant position can be powerful but not efficient over longer rides.

I've always viewed cycling as a quad-dominant exercise and have wondered whether setting my position for more quad activation would be beneficial.

Feel free to add more opinions!

[sandyrs]

Thanks for the comments, especially pritchet74 and earlfoss.

Since most riders, especially european racers, find a position using a typical setback post and a frame with common angles, I wonder why Terpstra is running a quad dominant position. Usually this type of position is for time trials and time trial bikes; I would expect this is not a comfortable position for european racing (long classics, stage racing), however I won't dispute Terpstra has been successful in that position.

As has been experienced by others here, a similar, quad-dominant position can be powerful but not efficient over longer rides.

I've always viewed cycling as a quad-dominant exercise and have wondered whether setting my position for more quad activation would be beneficial.

Feel free to add more opinions!

When terpstra wins, he seems to do so almost exclusively with an attack and time trial to the finish. He seems to have optimized his position for this kind of effort, which makes some sense to me.

[m4rk540]

The guy rides a pretty large frame so the position isn't that ridiculous. And he's hardly ever in the drops.

[Chris]

We have a local shop (the pro shop in town) that uses the Guru fit currently and another high tech fit before then. I know lots of local racers who have gotten the fit through the last five years or so. Invariably, when they come back after the fit, I was able to guess each of their changes. Forward and lower in front. Each and every time. These are all racers, so there well could have been other fits. My friend owns the store, so out of curiosity, I went and got the fit just to see what the deal was. The recommendations were the same for me; seat forward, bars down. Now, I don't know how this was done with the previous fit techniques, but on the Guru, it seemed to be measuring where you're most powerful or fastest. Naturally, that's likely to be in a 'on the rivet' position, but is the ideal setting for the other 90% of the ride when you want to be comfortable and balanced on your bike? I don't really have the answer to that, but I know that for me, I stuck with the more balanced position.

[pasadena]

A lot of the pros are moving their saddles forward because the UCI relaxed the rules on this and tilt.

Steve Cummings, Theo Bos, Terpstra..etc, etc... many riders are slamming forward and tilting saddles

[Kontact]

It's a ridiculous position, and just because a pro is using it that doesn't mean it is the result of "science". Sean Kelly kicked ass looking like he was riding a bike he stole from a child.

[pbarry]

Sean Kelly could have ridden a Big Wheel and kicked a on most courses. ;)

[beeatnik]

It's a ridiculous position, and just because a pro is using it that doesn't mean it is the result of "science". Sean Kelly kicked ass looking like he was riding a bike he stole from a child.

More flexible, than ridiculous here

https://i.imgur.com/3SrNIhO.jpg

And, the frame he rode for Flanders is most certainly a size bigger.

[Kontact]

More flexible, than ridiculous here

https://i.imgur.com/3SrNIhO.jpg

And, the frame he rode for Flanders is most certainly a size bigger.

I don't think that's flexibility. He has the same bend at the waist as someone riding with higher bars and normal set back. He is choosing to rotate his entire body position around the BB, which moves his pelvis forward and his hand forward and down, just like a Tri-bike.

You don't get something for nothing.


Also, I can't tell if he has a short torso, or if the huge elbow/knee overlap is from needing his arms closer to him because he has so much weight on his hands.

[carpediemracing]

If you have some decent hip angle, meaning you're leaned over, you use your glutes. Doesn't matter if you're sitting upright (and your cranks are in front of you) or if you're sitting way forward. If your hip angle is more acute you use more glutes.

So you can position your hips such that you're more over the pedals (forward), get the bars down low, and you'll end up with a similar hip angle as if you were sitting upright.

Think of that cruiser bike company that basically rotates a road bike rider back a bunch (in their ads) to make for a "comfortable but efficient bike". They neglect to say that their position rules out standing up but whatever. The point is that you can get the same kind of hip angle all around the clock.

If you move your saddle forward and drop the bars, and you have something in place to support the position (maybe not a rock hard saddle, maybe something that supports you differently) then you'll be fine. It's not radical, it's not uncomfortable, it's lets a heavier rider (like myself) breathe easier, it relieves stress from my back, it is a position that's fine for longer 4-10 hour rides.

I've always had a forward position due to my very short quads (my knees do not reach my armpits) but it was only when I could adjust the axle positions that it became possible to ride in the position comfortably. By stretching out the top tube significantly (effectively 5-6 cm), it got me extended enough, and it also brought the front wheel forward substantially (maybe 5 cm?). My 40 cm seat tube bike has a 102 cm wheelbase, and it has a 39cm chainstay. So a very long BB->front hub.

Boonen didn't have a very forward position compared to Jens Voigt, who has virtually the same body proportions.

[sparky33]

being that my power profile is all sprinter

I didn't know there was such a thing as a power profile until this post.

It turns out that I am the opposite....an upsloping time-trialist it says (https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/power-profiling/). Makes sense as I sprint with power of a wilting daisy but can easily settle into a stout w/kg for long efforts, especially for climbing.

How does one improve 5s and 1m power? Is there a component of pedaling style that matters too?

[MattTuck]

How does one improve 5s and 1m power?

Pick better parents. :banana:

[Mzilliox]

I'm still all about the forward position. I don't care what anyone says, current STA are too slack. Bring back the 74ºSTA on large bikes!

My favorite bike has a 74STA at 55cm. i prefer it.

[MattTuck]

I don't think that's flexibility. He has the same bend at the waist as someone riding with higher bars and normal set back. He is choosing to rotate his entire body position around the BB, which moves his pelvis forward and his hand forward and down, just like a Tri-bike.

You don't get something for nothing.


Also, I can't tell if he has a short torso, or if the huge elbow/knee overlap is from needing his arms closer to him because he has so much weight on his hands.

Not sure, but if he can be comfortable for a 6+ hour race, it can't be all bad for him.

If we're looking for positions that we can approximate ourselves, we should probably not be looking at the absolute tail of the tail of the distribution.

[avalonracing]

Sounds like you're destined for one of the Allez Sprint framesets. I haven't checked the new Tarmac, but it may fall somewhat close to that. :beer:

Nice tip! And check out this paint

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/allez-sprint-frameset--red-hook-crit-edition/p/134307?color=239475-134307

(If it was a Peg people would be going crazy for it).
If my trusty Klein with it's 74º STA wasn't still ticking off the miles I'd check out the Sprint. Even though I like a standard BSC BB shell.

[benb]

I've had a bunch of fittings where they are trying to push me towards these positions. Several of the places have GURU fit setups but I haven't paid for the Guru fit yet.

You can sit there and say "as soon as I drop below X watts I'm falling forward onto my wrists" till you're blue in the face and they'll just keep listening to the computer and ignoring you. X in that above sentence would be something quite high.

Never a problem if you stop pedaling and brace on the pedals but as far as I'm concerned I need to be able to pedal at a Z1/Z2 pace for a recovery ride without feeling like I'm doing pushups.

It mostly is about the saddle position AFAICT for me, not about how low/far the bars are. But these fits they really like to raise the saddle and move you forward.

I've settled in this year on a saddle position that is 5mm lower and 5mm aft of where these type of fits put me... it gets me "balanced" without forcing me to have to raise the bars.

Maybe some of it has to do with KOPS too.. the forward & up position always ends up with me at KOPS but falling forward. (Long legs + long femurs for me). I still feel like these fancy systems end up still having a rule to put the rider at KOPS cause you can use a laser and look fancy and it's way easier than actually getting the rider balanced. Put the knee over the pedal and done.

[sandyrs]

Not sure, but if he can be comfortable for a 6+ hour race, it can't be all bad for him.

If we're looking for positions that we can approximate ourselves, we should probably not be looking at the absolute tail of the tail of the distribution.

You mean everyone on this thread isn't a position change away from winning Flanders? :banana:

[jpritchet74]

How does one improve 5s and 1m power? Is there a component of pedaling style that matters too?

Lots of all out efforts at 1 minute and under would help, but as said before - picking your parents makes the biggest difference.

[sparky33]

Lots of all out efforts at 1 minute and under would help, but as said before - picking your parents makes the biggest difference.
Most of the gene pool was alright, except for that 5s power and balding. It'll be a tough call on picking new parents...:confused:

[chiasticon]

How does one improve 5s and 1m power?buy a power meter, hire a coach, do what they tell you. or just do a bunch of short hill repeats I guess...?

My favorite bike has a 74STA at 55cm. i prefer it.same. I can deal with 73.5-ish but anything slacker and I can't get the saddle where I like it. if my team gave me a free bike with a 73 degree STA and said "you must ride this", I'd flip the seatpost around like Terpstra.

I honestly wonder why we see so many pros that seem to grab a stock frame, throw a standard length/angle stem on it, a standard setback post with the saddle dead-center on the rails, slam the stem and call it good. either these guys all have very "normal" bodies, or they're comfortable contorting themselves into different positions depending on what bike they are provided with this year. you would definitely think that we would see more people like Adam Hansen and Terpstra who've had to make "radical" changes to make up for the bike geo being a little off for them.

[earlfoss]

It's easy to improve 1 minute power, where your ceiling ends up is another story. Often, it doesn't take more than a couple sessions to see some very good adaptations. To start, I'd recommend the Sufferfest Revolver workout. I prescribe it to my clients in certain situations. Aiming at about a 95% effort by perceived exertion across the efforts is good for kickstarting your body's ability to buffer these levels of hurt.

Later, at the appropriate time, complimenting that with some shorter sessions which target "best effort" with an aim at PR numbers can be very effective.

It's easy to overdose on this stuff, so I usually don't recommend more than 1-2 sessions of this kind of thing in a week.

Just sharing!

[MattTuck]

I've had a bunch of fittings where they are trying to push me towards these positions. Several of the places have GURU fit setups but I haven't paid for the Guru fit yet.

You can sit there and say "as soon as I drop below X watts I'm falling forward onto my wrists" till you're blue in the face and they'll just keep listening to the computer and ignoring you. X in that above sentence would be something quite high.

Never a problem if you stop pedaling and brace on the pedals but as far as I'm concerned I need to be able to pedal at a Z1/Z2 pace for a recovery ride without feeling like I'm doing pushups.

It mostly is about the saddle position AFAICT for me, not about how low/far the bars are. But these fits they really like to raise the saddle and move you forward.

I've settled in this year on a saddle position that is 5mm lower and 5mm aft of where these type of fits put me... it gets me "balanced" without forcing me to have to raise the bars.

Maybe some of it has to do with KOPS too.. the forward & up position always ends up with me at KOPS but falling forward. (Long legs + long femurs for me). I still feel like these fancy systems end up still having a rule to put the rider at KOPS cause you can use a laser and look fancy and it's way easier than actually getting the rider balanced. Put the knee over the pedal and done.

The one big contrast between mountain biking and road biking is the various positions that drop handle bars provide. Hoods, drops, tops, all allow for different balance points on the bike, that can correspond to different wattage outputs. Slightly more upright with less weight on the hands, on the tops, for low watt efforts. And more aggressive positions on the hoods and drops, for more output that helps transfer more power to the pedals and off the hands.

TiDesigns had some good thoughts on how to fit people according to balance in these different positions. In the fittings that I have had (and these were at well known fitting studios), there was never any real discussion of balance and/or different hand positions.

[pasadena]

Most pro setups are extreme for the majority of riders.
Most can't comfortably hold those positions for 6 hours at 300w

Bike fit is a constantly changing thing if you your body is adapting and progressing in fitness.
The pros are always tinkering and changing their positions, especially in the off-season.


I honestly wonder why we see so many pros that seem to grab a stock frame, throw a standard length/angle stem on it, a standard setback post with the saddle dead-center on the rails, slam the stem and call it good. either these guys all have very "normal" bodies, or they're comfortable contorting themselves into different positions depending on what bike they are provided with this year. you would definitely think that we would see more people like Adam Hansen and Terpstra who've had to make "radical" changes to make up for the bike geo being a little off for them.