Business Profile of SRAM

[1centaur]

Interesting thoughts along the way: http://www.businessinsider.com/sram-bicycle-components-company-chicago-tour-interview-2018-3#-12

[berserk87]

Interesting quote on disc wheels for the road market:
but we're right at the inflection point in the road market where disc brakes are coming in and the disc availability is very limited, in terms of bike selection and, literally, availability.

I think — my hypothesis, my hope — is that consumers are postponing new high-end purchases until the suite of new disc bikes becomes more filled out. I mean, you could buy a few now, and you could build up a few, but even if you did a kit build, your frame selection is limited. So as we swing forward, there are going to be more standard-specced disc bikes and more frames available for kit builds. I think 2018 is going to be meaningfully better, and 2019 is going to be a lot better, because in another 18 months that entire category is going to be well populated.

Is he hoping that simple availability will lead to demand?

[m4rk540]

McMahon: Is Campagnolo a market factor?

Day: Not really a competitive factor. They are really a great brand, a classic brand. They're probably about $100 million in sales, with $60 million of that in wheels and $40 million in drivetrain. They are the historical, classic brand, but they're not really on the competitive or performance curve of what we and Shimano are producing.

I stopped reading at that point.

[jtbadge]

I stopped reading at that point.

Are they wrong, though? Campagnolo is producing great product, but there's absolutely no way they are selling in the volume of SRAM.

[m4rk540]

There's more performance and innovation in a Movistar Canyon with Super Record EPS and Bora Ultras than a Katusha Canyon with Etap and Zipps. And more beauty. And history. And reliability.

And durability.

[thegunner]

There's more performance and innovation in a Movistar Canyon with Super Record EPS and Bora Ultras than a Katusha Canyon with Etap and Zipps. And more beauty. And history. And reliability.

And durability.

that seems subjective. fact of the matter is, realistically - sram probably doesn't bother dictating their business decisions based on what campy does, not because campy doesn't make a quality product, they just don't sell enough to matter in the OEM market.

[peanutgallery]

Campagnolo is still in business?:)

SRAM has cleaned up their products, they're really strong with mtb OEM and they're experiencing some growth when few others are. Shimano owns road OEM...for now. If they keep up their distribution foolishness it will bite them in the long term. They're burning OEM, distribution and the LBS partners at the moment and folks are going out of their way to use other products when and where they can. There is absolutely no $ in selling shimano products in the USA, you always make $ selling SRAM. That's why shimano is flat in the states

Campy will always be Campy, they're making $ without really trying and focusing on expensive skinny tires. Niche within a niche anymore. If it wasn't for fulcrum, that would be it

[m4rk540]

that seems subjective. fact of the matter is, realistically - sram probably doesn't bother dictating their business decisions based on what campy does, not because campy doesn't make a quality product, they just don't sell enough to matter in the OEM market.

So, other than pettiness, why claim that Campagnolo isn't competitive or performance forward in the most performance-centric market, road racing?

[FlashUNC]

So, other than pettiness, why claim that Campagnolo isn't competitive or performance forward in the most performance-centric market, road racing?

Probably not from the perspective of someone at SRAM. Is Campagnolo big in the 1x market? No. Are they in mountain bikes? Nope. Are they big in OEM? Nope. Disc brakes? Just arrived at the party, and just for road. Yes, beat SRAM to the punch on electronic, but SRAM's leapfrogged everyone with wireless.

Road groups, especially mechanical road groups, are just a narrow sliver of SRAM's market approach.

I'm not surprised that's his view at all. I don't agree with it, but he doesn't have to sugar coat it either if they're not spending much time thinking about what's coming out of Vicenza.

[CiclistiCliff]

I'm not surprised that's his view at all. I don't agree with it, but he doesn't have to sugar coat it either if they're not spending much time thinking about what's coming out of Vicenza.

May not agree with it, but it's accurate.

[NHAero]

From the standpoint of innovation, the significant changes since I began riding a drop bar derailleur bike in the late 60s have been:

- slant parallelogram derailleur
- cassette hubs
- sealed bearings
- threadless headsets
- modern sidepull dual pivot brakes
- V brakes
- disc brakes
- hydro disc brakes
- index shifting
- integrated shifter/brake levers
- flat bar index shifters (grip and trigger)
- affordable internal gear hubs >5 speeds
- electronic shifting
- wide range cassettes with derailleurs that work with them (and clutch derailleurs)
- tubeless tires
- suspension
- quick links for chains
- clipless pedals

The first readily available clipless pedal was by Cinelli. Aside from that, have any of the above come from Italy, and specifically Campagnolo?

I'm a mechanical engineer, not a bike historian, so feel free to correct me, but I think we're riding bikes that work better and do more mostly thanks to Japanese innovation, and more recently SRAM. You may prefer how Campagnolo interprets these innovations (performance) but in most cases the innovation didn't occur in Vicenza.

[oldpotatoe]

McMahon: Is Campagnolo a market factor?

Day: Not really a competitive factor. They are really a great brand, a classic brand. They're probably about $100 million in sales, with $60 million of that in wheels and $40 million in drivetrain. They are the historical, classic brand, but they're not really on the competitive or performance curve of what we and Shimano are producing.

I stopped reading at that point.

MTB is what I'll be he is referring to..do ya suppose a guy at Honda Motorcycles says the same thing about Aprilla, Ducati or MV Augusta? There are examples of successful companies everywhere that make similar products but are happy with their 'niche', and continue to make premium products, and choose to stay small. Like Rolex, Aprilla and Triumph, Audi, I'm sure there are many others from coffee makers to razors and shoes. Colnago, Pinarello, put name of small custom frame builder here. Would Kirk or LLewellyn want to be giganto and OE..doubt it.

[1centaur]

"not really on the competitive or performance curve of what we and Shimano are producing."

I think the key word there is "curve," and what he means by it.

I of course knew when I posted the story that this forum would focus on the Campy comments first and the disc brake comments secondarily. I also used "business" in the subject line intentionally. Stan Day is very focused on SRAM as a business rather than as an exemplar of great craft or form, IMO.

My interpretation of "curve" is that "competitive" means units and dollars, and there is no doubt that Campy's in the dust of S&S on that front. I think by "performance curve" he means pushing the industry forward through continual product changes. That's why the R&D and the patents. They believe to win vs. Shimano they have to get to the front of the line on thing after thing. e-tap has been very important to their results, but it will only be a leader for so long. He needs new things coming out of the pipeline every couple of years across road and mountain. That is not the Campy business. And he needs not to give ideas to Shimano engineers; I have found SRAM very circumspect in their financials about discussing things in the pipeline. They know lots of money managers ride bikes and love to talk.

[oldpotatoe]

From the standpoint of innovation, the significant changes since I began riding a drop bar derailleur bike in the late 60s have been:

- slant parallelogram derailleur
- cassette hubs
- sealed bearings
- threadless headsets
- modern sidepull dual pivot brakes
- V brakes
- disc brakes
- hydro disc brakes
- index shifting
- integrated shifter/brake levers
- flat bar index shifters (grip and trigger)
- affordable internal gear hubs >5 speeds
- electronic shifting
- wide range cassettes with derailleurs that work with them (and clutch derailleurs)
- tubeless tires
- suspension
- quick links for chains
- clipless pedals

The first readily available clipless pedal was by Cinelli. Aside from that, have any of the above come from Italy, and specifically Campagnolo?

I'm a mechanical engineer, not a bike historian, so feel free to correct me, but I think we're riding bikes that work better and do more mostly thanks to Japanese innovation, and more recently SRAM. You may prefer how Campagnolo interprets these innovations (performance) but in most cases the innovation didn't occur in Vicenza.

Japanese ideas, no doubt but sram is the very epitome of riding on shimano's coat tails..from freehub design/cogset design to brakes, they are the experts at copying a design, change bits to make it lighter, use the consumer to beta test...in addition, sram doesn't necessarily 'innovate' but buy the company that has the idea..re-rockshox, avid, zipp...etc. gripshift anybody?

[superbowlpats]

Why do Campy fans always seem to be so sensitive/protective about stuff like this? Ride what you like!

[oldpotatoe]

"not really on the competitive or performance curve of what we and Shimano are producing."

I think the key word there is "curve," and what he means by it.

I of course knew when I posted the story that this forum would focus on the Campy comments first and the disc brake comments secondarily. I also used "business" in the subject line intentionally. Stan Day is very focused on SRAM as a business rather than as an exemplar of great craft or form, IMO.

My interpretation of "curve" is that "competitive" means units and dollars, and there is no doubt that Campy's in the dust of S&S on that front. I think by "performance curve" he means pushing the industry forward through continual product changes. That's why the R&D and the patents. They believe to win vs. Shimano they have to get to the front of the line on thing after thing. e-tap has been very important to their results, but it will only be a leader for so long. He needs new things coming out of the pipeline every couple of years across road and mountain. That is not the Campy business. And he needs not to give ideas to Shimano engineers; I have found SRAM very circumspect in their financials about discussing things in the pipeline. They know lots of money managers ride bikes and love to talk.

Well said, all about 'philosophy'..sram isn't interested in developing or maintaining any 'heritage' or history.

I think sram would be well advised to try to soften their message a bit. They, meaning the corporate guys as well as the outside and inside guys, have always been 'in your face' and IME, very sensitive when trying to point out any shortcoming in their products. Right after etap came out I yaked with the sram outside guy around here..and mentioned their ad, after Campagnolo introduced EPS, 'no batteriess required' it stated. I was smiling, he scowled, and said, 'we'll see who's left standing!!' and stomped off..Bike toys, but when it comes to $ and units, sram has no sense of humor.

[oldpotatoe]

Why do Campy fans always seem to be so sensitive/protective about stuff like this? Ride what you like!

Perhaps because there is so much misinformation and snarkyness when Campag is brought up

'Is Campanolo still in business', 'has Campagnolo designed anything?' type stuff..just a few posts above.

[ripvanrando]

Why do Campy fans always seem to be so sensitive/protective about stuff like this? Ride what you like!

Passion and loyalty are powerful forces countering petty snark.

[peanutgallery]

Though kidding, it was a semi serious question.
Seeing 2 or 3 campy bikes annually, usually at least 10 years old, nothing new and maybe chorus if I'm lucky. Lots of fulcrum wheels though.

Perhaps because there is so much misinformation and snarkyness when Campag is brought up

'Is Campanolo still in business', 'has Campagnolo designed anything?' type stuff..just a few posts above.

[berserk87]

Perhaps because there is so much misinformation and snarkyness when Campag is brought up


That gate swings both ways. Because there are no Campy snobs out there or anything...

[oldpotatoe]

Though kidding, it was a semi serious question.
Seeing 2 or 3 campy bikes annually, usually at least 10 years old, nothing new and maybe chorus if I'm lucky. Lots of fulcrum wheels though.

Like I said, different biz model, different philosophy..similar to watches, cars, motorcycles, shoes, coffee machines, small frame builders..blah, blah...

I've never seen a Kirk, Aprilla, MV Auguta in the wild, see maybe 1-2 Rolexes per year, and I just saw my first Alfa Romero Guilia...I guess that means all of them are about to go under..:eek:

[Burnette]

Like I said, different biz model, different philosophy..similar to watches, cars, motorcycles, shoes, coffee machines, small frame builders..blah, blah...

I've never seen a Kirk, Aprilla, MV Auguta in the wild, see maybe 1-2 Rolexes per year, and I just saw my first Alfa Romero Guilia...I guess that means all of them are about to go under..:eek:

I've seen you float this "business philosophy" about Campy and it's simply a false narrative that's not backed by facts at all. Read industry copy just a little and you would see that Campy is desperately trying to claw back market share and that they are indeed not happy chasing well heeled baby boomers to the grave.

Campy wants/needs OEM sales, period, and they are on the cusp of being irrelevant. In a stock analysis report for the industry from 2018 to 2022 Campy isn't even mentioned with SRAM and Shimano because it's relevance and business strategy is weak and likely not to change going forward without major change.

Campy makes a good product, have one of the best brand names in the bicycle business, bar none and yet they are way behind in sales dollars. That will eat them whole eventually if they don't change. And they are trying, again, if you read more you would know that Campy it's self parrots what I wrote above.

Campy has more in common with Fiat in the America market today than with Ferrari in the world market. They can't make inroads despite the name.

[Cicli]

sHram is quickly becoming trek.

Pretty good stuff that is boring as hell.

[simonov]

I wouldn't use Rolex as an example of a niche company. Despite being an independent company and one of few not owned by a watch or luxury goods conglomerate, they're still one of the biggest companies in their industry.

[simonov]

sHram is quickly becoming trek.

Pretty good stuff that is boring as hell.

It's spelled SRAM. But you probably knew that, Chicklie.

[choke]

In a stock analysis report for the industry from 2018 to 2022 Campy isn't even mentioned with SRAM and Shimano because it's relevance and business strategy is weak and likely not to change going forward without major change.Considering that they are a privately held company it's not really surprising that they are missing from a stock report.

I do think that Campy would like to have some OEM sales....but their business model doesn't depend on it like Sram and Shimano.

[Burnette]

Considering that they are a privately held company it's not really surprising that they are missing from a stock report.

I do think that Campy would like to have some OEM sales....but their business model doesn't depend on it like Sram and Shimano.

No, you missed the point, stock reports have information on market factors that are relevant and impactful and Campy's current state and path forward does not move the needle enough to warrant coverage.

And you're wrong, Campy's business TODAY is to gain OEM share, for they know that without it they are doomed. Their livelihood does indeed depend on it. Again, a quick read from Campy it's self and the changes a they are making to gain OEM sales would end this romantic notion that Campy can survive without it. It's what they are trying to gain my friend.

[72gmc]

I read that line from SRAM man as a salesman saying salesman stuff, nothing more. Of course you can ask about that company that makes wood siding, but the future is aluminum siding, etc.

His performance curve is entirely focused on what he sells.

[Black Dog]

.

[Black Dog]

No, you missed the point, stock reports have information on market factors that are relevant and impactful and Campy's current state and path forward does not move the needle enough to warrant coverage.

And you're wrong, Campy's business TODAY is to gain OEM share, for they know that without it they are doomed. Their livelihood does indeed depend on it. Again, a quick read from Campy it's self and the changes a they are making to gain OEM sales would end this romantic notion that Campy can survive without it. It's what they are trying to gain my friend.

Where do you get your insight into Campy's internal strategies? Does campy publish such info as you claim or are you inferring this from their recent product releases?

[oldpotatoe]

I've seen you float this "business philosophy" about Campy and it's simply a false narrative that's not backed by facts at all. Read industry copy just a little and you would see that Campy is desperately trying to claw back market share and that they are indeed not happy chasing well heeled baby boomers to the grave.

Campy wants/needs OEM sales, period, and they are on the cusp of being irrelevant. In a stock analysis report for the industry from 2018 to 2022 Campy isn't even mentioned with SRAM and Shimano because it's relevance and business strategy is weak and likely not to change going forward without major change.

Campy makes a good product, have one of the best brand names in the bicycle business, bar none and yet they are way behind in sales dollars. That will eat them whole eventually if they don't change. And they are trying, again, if you read more you would know that Campy it's self parrots what I wrote above.

Campy has more in common with Fiat in the America market today than with Ferrari in the world market. They can't make inroads despite the name.

This idea that "OEM or Die" has been mentioned in the same sentence as Campagnolo for 30 years. I imagine 'stock analysis reports' in any industry might not mention the small, premium brands..like watches. 'Desperately trying to claw back market share'..if that were true, they would have opened the 'Fulcrum' line of complete groups->OEM in Taiwan long ago..why haven't they? 'Maybe' they are happy with their model, sell all they make, kinda like...I donno..Rolex. As I mentioned, altho they make similar products, what the 'big boys' do isn't necessarily what the 'little guy' wants to do.

Baby Benz, 'people's' Porsche, electronic Rolexes, MV Agusta doesn't make the range of motorcycles even the smallest of the Japanese brand, makes..no MVAugusta scooters, no Hyundai trucks, no Leica point and shoots.

Campagnolo has been 'way behind in sales dollars' since the late 80s, early 90s....almost 30 years..I don't think there is a 'one size fits all' biz philosophy for any product type.

Campy's business TODAY is to gain OEM share, for they know that without it they are doomed.

Been saying this for a long time. Altho I think they would like some OE, I don't think they would sacrifice control and manufacturing QC to gain it, like one of the other 's' groups has on occasion.

OE isn't Campagnolo's salvation, as it is for shimano/sram...w/o OE, the other 2 big boys wouldn't exist. Campagnolo has survived and grown w/o OE for a long time.

[oldpotatoe]

:eek:I wouldn't use Rolex as an example of a niche company. Despite being an independent company and one of few not owned by a watch or luxury goods conglomerate, they're still one of the biggest companies in their industry.

Found some info..I guess I'll stick to small Motorcycle and car companies..Rolex number 3 in sales worldwide..:eek:

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-top-selling-watch-brands-in-the-world-How-many-watches-do-they-produce-per-year-What-is-the-average-price-of-each-companies-watch

[sonicCows]

Where do you get your insight into Campy's internal strategies? Does campy publish such info as you claim or are you inferring this from their recent product releases?

While I don't have access to Campagnolo's actual marketing releases, virtually every bike publication/blog reviewing Potenza (with access to the releases) says it's an attempt to get back at middle market/competing with Force/Ultegra, so take that for what you will..

[choke]

:eek:

Found some info..I guess I'll stick to small Motorcycle and car companies..Rolex number 3 in sales worldwide..:eek:Might I suggest Nomos....~260 employees and an annual production of around 20k watches. :)

[Cat3roadracer]

I wouldn't use Rolex as an example of a niche company. Despite being an independent company and one of few not owned by a watch or luxury goods conglomerate, they're still one of the biggest companies in their industry.


Not one of, Rolex is the largest in the industry. Apple being second.

[choke]

Not one of, Rolex is the largest in the industry. Apple being second.Considering that there are over 600 million watches produced in China annually we probably have never heard the name of the largest watch company.

[oldpotatoe]

I KNOW european pro road racing 'might' not imply anything for many BUT, of the top Euro teams..I just saw Cofidis is now Campagnolo sponsored, along with Movistar, UAE, Lotto...sram-Katusha...the rest shimano...:) Not surprised since road racing, type stuff is Campagnolo's 'thing'..

Like road machines are MotoGuzzi or MV Augusta's gig...Not like Honda or Suzuki...but not a 'wrong' decision. Nike doesn't make dress shoes either. :)

[oldpotatoe]

Considering that there are over 600 million watches produced in China annually we probably have never heard the name of the largest watch company.

DOH!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EDDIE-MERCKX-BIKE-LOGO-SPORT-METAL-WATCH/323178506076?epid=1838532310&hash=item4b3ef0a75c:g:V3EAAMXQLs5RoEPG

https://flossiy.com/collections/cool-watches/products/rolex-mens-watch

[Davist]

Not one of, Rolex is the largest in the industry. Apple being second.

huh? Rolex is nervous, at best, along with the whole Swiss watch industry. http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-outsold-the-entire-swiss-watch-industry-in-2017-2018-2

All grumpy comments aside.. Good article on business side of SRAM, if they're growing at 15+% they're doing great. Bike business isn't growing like that. I agree the comments vs their competition sound like "sales guy" talking.

Pro teams run what they're given, if Campagnolo chooses to spend a high percentage (vs other brands) on pro sponsorship good for them. If it were my $$ I wouldn't, but they didn't ask me. Not sure if they need OEM but it would help. Their market is getting older and increasingly niche-y, not a recipe for long term business prospects in my opinion.

[colker]

I much prefer riding on campagnolo than the other 2 companies. I would consider shimano, maybe... I respect shimano´s all aluminum philosophy although i don´t like their shifting.
As long as i can buy it, i will ride campagnolo. That´s all that counts for me: beauty, performance and tradition.
Why ride sram when their cranksets look so bad?
Good for Sram they sell a lot... not my thing though.

[colker]

Suntour was innovation. Suntour beat Campagnolo at their game w/ better performing and good looking parts. Suntour was BETTER than Campagnolo. And cheaper.
Suntour died.. not because they were niche. Good stuff is killed by bad business decisions. Shimano killed suntour.
If sram rises it may not be about their innovation but business. What did Sram invent? A better derrailleur? Better braking? Better wheels? Sram´s success brings nothing better to our bicycles. They are good at making money.

[rain dogs]

When Stan Day talks about Sram he talks about the whole portfolio from what I read and interpret. Sales and such. Sram has aquired a lot of IP from other brands and as such sales.

Shimano and Campagnolo are very different in that regard.

[tylercheung]

I would say, as long as Campagnolo has enough volume *AND* margin to fund engineering R&D, and as long as they have a clear vision of what to R&D, they will be OK.

The analogy is Apple - everybody thinks they are doomed because they never historically have had a ton of market share. Even iPhones - they are probably the most visible and well known phone brand-wise, but their market share of overall phones are tiny. But most of the profit in the industry is made by Apple and funneled back into R&D - materials research, silicon design, etc, that the average mobile phone maker doesn't really think about, or depends on 3rd party suppliers to conduct.

The difference in analogy is that Shimano may have so much *more* R&D due to scale that they may be able to out-innovate Campy if their engineers have their heads in the right place.

At any rate, would love a deep dive into the engineering behind the Big 3 components - design, materials, testing, etc. The catch is this probably would have to be updated every 3-5 years or so as new generations are introduced, etc.




This idea that "OEM or Die" has been mentioned in the same sentence as Campagnolo for 30 years. I imagine 'stock analysis reports' in any industry might not mention the small, premium brands..like watches. 'Desperately trying to claw back market share'..if that were true, they would have opened the 'Fulcrum' line of complete groups->OEM in Taiwan long ago..why haven't they? 'Maybe' they are happy with their model, sell all they make, kinda like...I donno..Rolex. As I mentioned, altho they make similar products, what the 'big boys' do isn't necessarily what the 'little guy' wants to do.

Baby Benz, 'people's' Porsche, electronic Rolexes, MV Agusta doesn't make the range of motorcycles even the smallest of the Japanese brand, makes..no MVAugusta scooters, no Hyundai trucks, no Leica point and shoots.

Campagnolo has been 'way behind in sales dollars' since the late 80s, early 90s....almost 30 years..I don't think there is a 'one size fits all' biz philosophy for any product type.



Been saying this for a long time. Altho I think they would like some OE, I don't think they would sacrifice control and manufacturing QC to gain it, like one of the other 's' groups has on occasion.

OE isn't Campagnolo's salvation, as it is for shimano/sram...w/o OE, the other 2 big boys wouldn't exist. Campagnolo has survived and grown w/o OE for a long time.

[Burnette]

This idea that "OEM or Die" has been mentioned in the same sentence as Campagnolo for 30 years. I imagine 'stock analysis reports' in any industry might not mention the small, premium brands..like watches. 'Desperately trying to claw back market share'..if that were true, they would have opened the 'Fulcrum' line of complete groups->OEM in Taiwan long ago..why haven't they? 'Maybe' they are happy with their model, sell all they make, kinda like...I donno..Rolex. As I mentioned, altho they make similar products, what the 'big boys' do isn't necessarily what the 'little guy' wants to do.



Again, if you read Campy's own copy, yes, they are "trying to claw back market share" and it's not as simple as "opening the Fulcrum line of components", they have to have a demand for that and they don't. You should be aware that the Potenza line was suppose to do just that, bring more OEM entry level sales but Shimano and SRAM have a lock on that due to supply chains, price and contracts. "Maybe they are happy with their model"? No Tator, again, read their own copy, they are not happy and know growth is important as their customer base ages out of the market.



Baby Benz, 'people's' Porsche, electronic Rolexes, MV Agusta doesn't make the range of motorcycles even the smallest of the Japanese brand, makes..no MVAugusta scooters, no Hyundai trucks, no Leica point and shoots.



I know cars and this is a false analogy. Campy makes bicycle components and they are trying like hell to cut costs and be, guess what, more like Shimano and SRAM because you have to make money in the end.


Campagnolo has been 'way behind in sales dollars' since the late 80s, early 90s....almost 30 years..I don't think there is a 'one size fits all' biz philosophy for any product type.



All nonsense, they have to make money, not just please a few who don't buy in volume.



Been saying this for a long time. Altho I think they would like some OE, I don't think they would sacrifice control and manufacturing QC to gain it, like one of the other 's' groups has on occasion.

That's funny to think Campy wants just "some OEM", they would like to have the majority of it and dominate the market like Shimano if they could. It's a weird notion to believe Campy wants just a little more market share.



OE isn't Campagnolo's salvation, as it is for shimano/sram...w/o OE, the other 2 big boys wouldn't exist. Campagnolo has survived and grown w/o OE for a long time.



What you miss is that OEM sales are vital because the dollars they generate allow you to do R&D, the added profit allows you to weather market downturns and recover from costly mistakes. You try and make it seem like OEM sales are unimportant when in reality these sales are the life's blood of any component maker of size. Again, read Campy's own thoughts on OEM sales and see for yourself what these sales really mean to them and why Campy says themselves they need these sales. I'm just sharing their own words here for you to read. And Campy is right about it. The company won't go under in a year or two but without more capital they cannot keep up SRAM and Shimano and Campy will be worth more for it's brand name than for it's factories and inventory. And in business that's what you call upside down. Truth.

[Burnette]

Suntour was innovation. Suntour beat Campagnolo at their game w/ better performing and good looking parts. Suntour was BETTER than Campagnolo. And cheaper.
Suntour died.. not because they were niche. Good stuff is killed by bad business decisions. Shimano killed suntour.
If sram rises it may not be about their innovation but business. What did Sram invent? A better derrailleur? Better braking? Better wheels? Sram´s success brings nothing better to our bicycles. They are good at making money.

You're right and industry copy supports your summation:

Best part was Shimano actually had (and has) more advanced technology in their components versus Campagnolo. If we lump in Suntour (RIP) with Shimano, the Japanese makers beat out Campy in a few very large advances in components since their inception:
• Slant-cage derailleurs - Suntour was first, Shimano soon behind, and it took until the mid-80's for Campy to give up the drop-cage, single sprung ghost. Score one for the Japanese for smoother shifts.
• Indexed shifting - Shimano was the first with a good one. Absolute game-changer. Suntour was short behind, as was Campy, but neither of those worked as well as the Shimano stuff.
• Integrated shifters. Shimano was first on the scene in 1990, jumping Campy by two years. You have to look hard to find a road bike without integrated shifters now. The Shimano shifters from the early 90's are harder to work on and fall apart more easily than the Campy ones, but Shimano was there first and cheaper.
• Cassette shaping. Those pins and ramps and missing teeth and such that cassettes have to mate with the chain and make shifting better. Another Shimano innovation, first with Uniglide and later with Hyperglide. It took Campagnolo until 1994 or so to have something that worked as well as what Shimano had 4 years prior. Or really, 8-10 years prior with Uniglide.
• Electronic shifting - still very new and more flash than commonplace, but Shimano beat Campagnolo on this one. Mavic beat all of them, but we're ignoring the French here.
Shimano did a great job getting in on the consumer-level market with mountain bikes in the 90's, too. This is where SRAM got their start as well. Campagnolo had some mountain biking components but they were not very common

[mcteague]

I KNOW european pro road racing 'might' not imply anything for many BUT, of the top Euro teams..I just saw Cofidis is now Campagnolo sponsored, along with Movistar, UAE, Lotto...sram-Katusha...the rest shimano...:) Not surprised since road racing, type stuff is Campagnolo's 'thing'..

Like road machines are MotoGuzzi or MV Augusta's gig...Not like Honda or Suzuki...but not a 'wrong' decision. Nike doesn't make dress shoes either. :)

MV Agusta has had a tough time keeping the doors open these last few years. You might want to stick to Aprilia as a good Campagnolo comparison. However, they are kept afloat by Piaggio.

https://www.motofire.com/2016/03/mv-agusta-trouble/

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-industry/mv-agusta-saved-italian-court

Tim

[m4rk540]

Probably not from the perspective of someone at SRAM. Is Campagnolo big in the 1x market? No. Are they in mountain bikes? Nope. Are they big in OEM? Nope. Disc brakes? Just arrived at the party, and just for road. Yes, beat SRAM to the punch on electronic, but SRAM's leapfrogged everyone with wireless.

Road groups, especially mechanical road groups, are just a narrow sliver of SRAM's market approach.

I'm not surprised that's his view at all. I don't agree with it, but he doesn't have to sugar coat it either if they're not spending much time thinking about what's coming out of Vicenza.

Of course the guy is referring to mountain and adventure bikes, and yet he only mentions one recent innovation in that area, Eagle. Yawn.

[simonov]

Not one of, Rolex is the largest in the industry. Apple being second.

I was leaving room for a loose interpretation of LVMH as a "watch" company since they have multiple brands in their portfolio. But, yeah, Rolex is huge. Bigger than Shimano (though, of course, not in the same market).

[Davist]

I'm glad most of you aren't running my business, cripe..

The growth is there. SRAM includes Rockshox, Zipp, Quarq and Truvativ, nice bundle of goods. Most innovative? Probably not, but each has some positives, right? Rockshox are solid, 454 type Zipps are a "hit", and arguably innovative, Quarq's done some cool things, the mountain groups are well accepted, certainly popularized 1x. Fixed the wireless stuff. I don't own a single product of there's (well zipp bars and stem) but jeez.. business article. The comments around "channel integrity" you'd think alone would win lots of fans here.

[Fivethumbs]

What I want to know is when SRAM is going to release 10 speed grip shift?

[peanutgallery]

I'm glad most of you aren't running my business, cripe..

The growth is there. SRAM includes Rockshox, Zipp, Quarq and Truvativ, nice bundle of goods. Most innovative? Probably not, but each has some positives, right? Rockshox are solid, 454 type Zipps are a "hit", and arguably innovative, Quarq's done some cool things, the mountain groups are well accepted, certainly popularized 1x. Fixed the wireless stuff. I don't own a single product of there's (well zipp bars and stem) but jeez.. business article. The comments around "channel integrity" you'd think alone would win lots of fans here.

^This^

SRAM has done something that Shimano has been unable to accomplish, a pretty strong parts and accessories business in addition to OEM spec. Shimano has done OK with pedals/shoes, but that is it. Shimano seatposts, stems, wheels etc have been pretty weak to tell you the truth. Shimano owns Pearl and Lazer, too - but those are kinda flat/weak, too. In the meantime, SRAM has developed a pretty good, broad, array of products and and found a way to protect their value in the current "omni-channel" market. Given SRAM''s current rate of growth and the devaluing of Shimano kit due to inaction on the omni-channel front will lead to OEM loss... I think we are looking at the next king of the heap in another year or 5. The clock is ticking for Shimano, be interesting to see if they can overcome their hubris and adjust a bit.

Campy will continue to do what Campy does

[colker]

You're right and industry copy supports your summation:

Best part was Shimano actually had (and has) more advanced technology in their components versus Campagnolo. If we lump in Suntour (RIP) with Shimano, the Japanese makers beat out Campy in a few very large advances in components since their inception:
• Slant-cage derailleurs - Suntour was first, Shimano soon behind, and it took until the mid-80's for Campy to give up the drop-cage, single sprung ghost. Score one for the Japanese for smoother shifts.
• Indexed shifting - Shimano was the first with a good one. Absolute game-changer. Suntour was short behind, as was Campy, but neither of those worked as well as the Shimano stuff.
• Integrated shifters. Shimano was first on the scene in 1990, jumping Campy by two years. You have to look hard to find a road bike without integrated shifters now. The Shimano shifters from the early 90's are harder to work on and fall apart more easily than the Campy ones, but Shimano was there first and cheaper.
• Cassette shaping. Those pins and ramps and missing teeth and such that cassettes have to mate with the chain and make shifting better. Another Shimano innovation, first with Uniglide and later with Hyperglide. It took Campagnolo until 1994 or so to have something that worked as well as what Shimano had 4 years prior. Or really, 8-10 years prior with Uniglide.
• Electronic shifting - still very new and more flash than commonplace, but Shimano beat Campagnolo on this one. Mavic beat all of them, but we're ignoring the French here.
Shimano did a great job getting in on the consumer-level market with mountain bikes in the 90's, too. This is where SRAM got their start as well. Campagnolo had some mountain biking components but they were not very common

Yeah; indexed shifting demoralized suntour.
I don´t know how campagnolo went from good looking, durable stuff that would keep shifting badly from day one till forever to the perfect working derrailleur and shifter they have now.
Campa was smart enough to make their integrated shifters resemble dt paddle shifting. When suddenly you turn from climbing to descending, bam, you go from big to the smallest cog in one move. Campagnolo is not only about "italiano" style... they use their mechanics to bridge past and present.

[colker]

^This^

SRAM has done something that Shimano has been unable to accomplish, a pretty strong parts and accessories business in addition to OEM spec. Shimano has done OK with pedals/shoes, but that is it. Shimano seatposts, stems, wheels etc have been pretty weak to tell you the truth. Shimano owns Pearl and Lazer, too - but those are kinda flat/weak, too. In the meantime, SRAM has developed a pretty good, broad, array of products and and found a way to protect their value in the current "omni-channel" market. Given SRAM''s current rate of growth and the devaluing of Shimano kit due to inaction on the omni-channel front will lead to OEM loss... I think we are looking at the next king of the heap in another year or 5. The clock is ticking for Shimano, be interesting to see if they can overcome their hubris and adjust a bit.

Campy will continue to do what Campy does

Shimano shifting system has quality sram does not even gets close to. Shimano cassettes make sram shift better.
Sram cranks? :no:
They can play second fiddle to shimano forever. It´s the best they can do.

[Burnette]

^This^

SRAM has done something that Shimano has been unable to accomplish, a pretty strong parts and accessories business in addition to OEM spec. Shimano has done OK with pedals/shoes, but that is it. Shimano seatposts, stems, wheels etc have been pretty weak to tell you the truth. Shimano owns Pearl and Lazer, too - but those are kinda flat/weak, too. In the meantime, SRAM has developed a pretty good, broad, array of products and and found a way to protect their value in the current "omni-channel" market. Given SRAM''s current rate of growth and the devaluing of Shimano kit due to inaction on the omni-channel front will lead to OEM loss... I think we are looking at the next king of the heap in another year or 5. The clock is ticking for Shimano, be interesting to see if they can overcome their hubris and adjust a bit.

Campy will continue to do what Campy does

Shimano 2017 net income from bicycle components alone were 1.5 billion dollars.

SRAM 2017 net income 2017 was 500 million dollars

Campagnolo net income same period was 3.14 million dollars.

Now think about that for a minute. Then realize that Shimano owns 50% of the global bicycle component market too. SRAM is doing very well indeed and are pushing Campy further out of the market. Shimano is the big elephant in the game with market share and scale, so no, SRAM will not over take 1.5 billion in profit and 50% of the market from Shimano without a fight from a savy, well run outfit that's been doing it for years.

To bring home the point of what OEM means, in 2016 Shimano had a 17% drop in sales. And how did they respond to it?

Despite the drop in sales Shimano made ‘vigorous investments’ in its manufacturing capabilities in Japan as well as overseas.

No losses in 40 years

That Shimano is capable to implement the ‘vigorous investments’ must be regarded in the light of what was recently stated in an extensive report by Credit Suisse. This financial specialist reported that Shimano not had a single operating loss in over 40 years! Next to that the Credit Suisse report mentions a Shimano CEO statement at a recent financial analyst briefing saying that the company is “favoring JPY 200bn (€ 1.7bn) as the optimum level for cash and equivalents.”

Without OEM sales and a comparatively low net income to SRAM and Shimano, those two can and will out maneuver Campy at every new innovation and new OEM contract. And without OEM sales Campy is way more vulnerable to market forces.



SRAM is to be commended for doing so well and having a positive forecast to boot. They don't have to beat or be bigger than Shimano, but they have to do better than Campy and gain OEM sales because that income keeps them in the game.

[54ny77]

Shimano makes a nice fishing reel. :p

[peanutgallery]

Maybe 5 years ago, that has changed...quality has greatly increased :no:

They're making some pretty good kit, particularly MTB. I've changed my tune

Shimano is in the weakest market position in the US that they've ever been in, they have no friends. Reps are tossed out of stores and the value for OEM is being noticed by Trek/Specialized. How can you market a $3k bike when the kit is available from England for $400 to $600 from the UK? That question is in the process of being asked/answered by both customers and manufacturers. Shops are stocking microshift and sunrace for Huffy patrol and SRAM wherever they can as you go up the food chain. If a customer realllllly wants a Shimano product, it comes from England...just like everyone else in the US. That new Shimano USA distribution center in the UK is Stetina's best move ever:) Interesting times

Shimano shifting system has quality sram does not even gets close to. Shimano cassettes make sram shift better.
Sram cranks? :no:
They can play second fiddle to shimano forever. It´s the best they can do.

[1centaur]

Exactly. SRAM won't beat Shimano but they saw the opportunity to be #2 in an industry that desperately needed a #2 to keep Shimano pricing in line and deliver reliably in a way Campy did not. It was a hole you could drive a truck through, as Frank Gifford used to say.

I think of Shimano as having the scale to pay for engineering excellence - that combination gives them lots of fans among consumers and OEMs. SRAM has to be scrappy on costs and technology and OEM service, and sometimes that has meant manufacturing was not as solid as Shimano's, but it has to be good enough to survive and sometimes it's really good.

[peanutgallery]

I would bet your first born that the net income differential between the two is a little closer than that. Additionally, you don't eff over your OEM partners, distribution partners and retail partners like that without a penalty. Lots of great alternatives have developed. Give it a few years, I think you will see quite a battle

Shimano 2017 net income from bicycle components alone were 1.5 billion dollars.

SRAM 2017 net income 2017 was 500 million dollars

Campagnolo net income same period was 3.14 million dollars.

Now think about that for a minute. Then realize that Shimano owns 50% of the global bicycle component market too. SRAM is doing very well indeed and are pushing Campy further out of the market. Shimano is the big elephant in the game with market share and scale, so no, SRAM will not over take 1.5 billion in profit and 50% of the market from Shimano without a fight from a savy, well run outfit that's been doing it for years.

To bring home the point of what OEM means, in 2016 Shimano had a 17% drop in sales. And how did they respond to it?

Despite the drop in sales Shimano made ‘vigorous investments’ in its manufacturing capabilities in Japan as well as overseas.

No losses in 40 years

That Shimano is capable to implement the ‘vigorous investments’ must be regarded in the light of what was recently stated in an extensive report by Credit Suisse. This financial specialist reported that Shimano not had a single operating loss in over 40 years! Next to that the Credit Suisse report mentions a Shimano CEO statement at a recent financial analyst briefing saying that the company is “favoring JPY 200bn (€ 1.7bn) as the optimum level for cash and equivalents.”

Without OEM sales and a comparatively low net income to SRAM and Shimano, those two can and will out maneuver Campy at every new innovation and new OEM contract. And without OEM sales Campy is way more vulnerable to market forces.



SRAM is to be commended for doing so well and having a positive forecast to boot. They don't have to beat or be bigger than Shimano, but they have to do better than Campy and gain OEM sales because that income keeps them in the game.

[choke]

That's funny to think Campy wants just "some OEM", they would like to have the majority of it and dominate the market like Shimano if they could. It's a weird notion to believe Campy wants just a little more market share.Campy wants the majority of the market? :confused: I'd like to see a citation for that. There's no way they want to be that big....they are happy with a small slice of the pie.

• Slant-cage derailleurs - Suntour was first, Shimano soon behind, and it took until the mid-80's for Campy to give up the drop-cage, single sprung ghost. Score one for the Japanese for smoother shifts.The term that you mean is 'slant parallelogram'. And FWIW both Campy and Shimano did not make slant parallelogram RDs until after Suntour's patent on the design expired in the mid-80s. Shimano did introduce one soon after the expiration and Campy was about 5 years later.

[Burnette]

Campy wants the majority of the market? :confused: I'd like to see a citation for that. There's no way they want to be that big....they are happy with a small slice of the pie.

The term that you mean is 'slant parallelogram'. And FWIW both Campy and Shimano did not make slant parallelogram RDs until after Suntour's patent on the design expired in the mid-80s. Shimano did introduce one soon after the expiration and Campy was about 5 years later.

"Campy wants the majority of the market? :confused: I'd like to see a citation for that. There's no way they want to be that big....they are happy with a small slice of the pie."

^This has got to be the biggest fallacy I read here, as if Campy wants to be just so big. They are a for profit company in the fight of their lives. Yes, they, like any other business, like to be on top. They're aren't doing this for fun.

[Burnette]

I would bet your first born that the net income differential between the two is a little closer than that. Additionally, you don't eff over your OEM partners, distribution partners and retail partners like that without a penalty. Lots of great alternatives have developed. Give it a few years, I think you will see quite a battle

And I would win my fist born that I was so foolish to wager.
And a battle between suppliers would be great for all of us. But make no mistake, Shimano is stringer and way bigger than you know. With their size and scale they can move the market alone.

[ntb1001]

Yeah

..but do they make a corkscrew??
[emoji16]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/530f5405a700021f195673f32e06dc3c.jpg

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[ergott]

Shimano shifting system has quality sram does not even gets close to. Shimano cassettes make sram shift better.
Sram cranks? :no:
They can play second fiddle to shimano forever. It´s the best they can do.I have both and that's simply not true. Shimano is not head and shoulders above Sram or Campagnolo. All 3 systems are excellent these days.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[choke]

^This has got to be the biggest fallacy I read here, as if Campy wants to be just so big. They are a for profit company in the fight of their lives. Yes, they, like any other business, like to be on top. They're aren't doing this for fun.Yes, they have to make a profit. But they are a privately owned company and they have no shareholders to cater to....so they don't have to grow into an all-conquering company. If you've ever read an interview with Valentino it's pretty clear that being a huge company is not something they aspire to be. It's hard to understand that from an American perspective but not every company sees taking over their chosen field as the prime objective.

And, as I thought, no citation.

[peanutgallery]

Well aware of their size and scope, but Shimano is doing everything they can to squander that advantage. I still think the numbers are misrepresented and they are a little closer numbers wise. Would love to see them lined up by market segment. On the MTB end of the market, Shimano has lost their mojo, current offering is a little crappy... I wouldn't take it as a gift. The new SRAM MTB stuff is a home run, plus their forks are a good value. I feel that Shimano's ability to dictate the market has passed. If they tighten up up distribution, the pendulum will swing back in a big way. The next product cycle or 2 will be interesting to observe, interested to see if Shimano can fritter away their advantage on the road end of things

And I would win my fist born that I was so foolish to wager.
And a battle between suppliers would be great for all of us. But make no mistake, Shimano is stringer and way bigger than you know. With their size and scale they can move the market alone.

[Burnette]

Yes, they have to make a profit. But they are a privately owned company and they have no shareholders to cater to....so they don't have to grow into an all-conquering company. If you've ever read an interview with Valentino it's pretty clear that being a huge company is not something they aspire to be. It's hard to understand that from an American perspective but not every company sees taking over their chosen field as the prime objective.

And, as I thought, no citation.

Valentino's PR is not different than SRAMs or Shimano and you ignore the fact that Campy must grow or it will be sold for it's name eventually. It's not that I'm American, that has nothing to do with it for unlike you I have no emotional attachment to any company. It's Campy's own recent moves to stop the decline that show that they too know it's grow or die.

SRAM is a great example of where Campy should be if not better in the market at this stage.

Read this from last year:

To cut the decline of Campagnolo support the company launched the new Potenza groupset last year, aimed at the mid-range market dominated by Shimano’s Ultegra offering, but it does look like you’re still paying a premium to have Campagnolo on your bike.That could be set to change, though. Campagnolo recently launched a new groupset, Centaur, aimed at the riders who currently use Shimano 105. If Campagnolo can get the pricing right for bike manufacturers, we might see more Campagnolo-equipped bikes in the 2018 model year.

Again, if you keep up with it you would know that Campy is fighting to grow beyond old guys with fond memories that don't buy enough product to keep the lights on. It's a business, family owned and they have bills to pay.

[Burnette]

Well aware of their size and scope, but Shimano is doing everything they can to squander that advantage. I still think the numbers are misrepresented and they are a little closer numbers wise. Would love to see them lined up by market segment. On the MTB end of the market, Shimano has lost their mojo, current offering is a little crappy... I wouldn't take it as a gift. The new SRAM MTB stuff is a home run, plus their forks are a good value. I feel that Shimano's ability to dictate the market has passed. If they tighten up up distribution, the pendulum will swing back in a big way. The next product cycle or 2 will be interesting to observe, interested to see if Shimano can fritter away their advantage on the road end of things

OK, we can play a game together. I'll take Shimano and give you both Campy and SRAM and let's see who holds the money and the market in five years. With 1.5 billion (and a protected 1.7 billon this year) in profit and 50% of the market and growing with disc, I feel pretty good and will take it. That's one helluva an advantage to fritter away, it would take years if ineptitude that Shimano has never shown to accomplish. And, one of your players is likely going to be bought out along the way.

But all of that is conjecture and we have reality at our disposal, the numbers today are real regardless of your personal disdain for Shimano. Shimano commands influence in the market like no other today. Truth.

[Burnette]

Take the feelings and emotion out and see a business as a business and realize the market waits for no one and you see what Campy is facing.

Current news:

"It will be interesting to see, if Campagnolo will survive this downturn of the market. Campagnolo’s presence in the OEM market (that is, providing components to road bike manufacturers for new bikes) is now almost zero with the exception of some expensive and small Italian brands. a newly introduced groupset, „Potenza“ failed to make an impact. The company is relying more and more on the aftersales markets where it still offers an attractive portfolio of wheels (under the Campagnolo und Fulcrum brand). However in order to be attractive in the after sales market, a company has to offer more technical advanced products than those who are OEM-equipped. And here Campagnolo is struggling.

What is left in terms of loyal customers who appreciate the image and the heritage of the brand, might be too less to keep the company afloat. And which competitor would like to buy he brand? Probably none."

[peanutgallery]

Once again, you can't eff over your biz partners and stay at the top of the the heap. Shimano is not all that far ahead in the market, SRAM is leveling the playing field and I will take your bet, will you take a cat or a box of random blown tires and tubes?:) Has to be the US market

OK, we can play a game together. I'll take Shimano and give you both Campy and SRAM and let's see who holds the money and the market in five years. With 1.5 billion (and a protected 1.7 billon this year) in profit and 50% of the market and growing with disc, I feel pretty good and will take it. That's one helluva an advantage to fritter away, it would take years if ineptitude that Shimano has never shown to accomplish. And, one of your players is likely going to be bought out along the way.

But all of that is conjecture and we have reality at our disposal, the numbers today are real regardless of your personal disdain for Shimano. Shimano commands influence in the market like no other today. Truth.

[Burnette]

Once again, you can't eff over your biz partners and stay at the top of the the heap. Shimano is not all that far ahead in the market, SRAM is leveling the playing field and I will take your bet, will you take a cat or a box of random blown tires and tubes?:) Has to be the US market

No, it has to be the global market for that's the field of play. And I don't like cats, have no use for trash tires and tubes but sharing on the board with you is fun enough. I agree, it will be interesting to see where the market going but Shimano has made profit for over 40 years, I think they will be doing OK in five.

And whatever slight Shimano has done it's all forgiven with a price break and an exclusive place for new product. That's the power of size.

[joosttx]

Once again, you can't eff over your biz partners and stay at the top of the the heap.

Monsanto does because they can. Plenty of pharma companies who do. I imagine Shimano can do the same. Sadly, what you are saying is a myth of the beaten man. But thats what anti trust laws are for.

[peanutgallery]

Distribution, Shimano is like 2 monkeys with a greased football. It'll take some effort that they haven't shown the stomach for. I have a cat picked out for you, little bugger would make it thru Armageddon. He'll be peeing in your cycling shoes in 5 years, no problem :)

No, it has to be the global market for that's the field of play. And I don't like cats, have no use for trash tires and tubes but sharing on the board with you is fun enough. I agree, it will be interesting to see where the market going but Shimano has made profit for over 40 years, I think they will be doing OK in five.

And whatever slight Shimano has done it's all forgiven with a price break and an exclusive place for new product. That's the power of size.

[Burnette]

Distribution, Shimano is like 2 monkeys with a greased football. I have a cat picked out for you, little bugger would make it thru Armageddon. He'll be kicking and peeing in your cycling shoes in 5 years, no problem :)

And when you lose I won't make you feel bad for I know it's not facts that led you to enter into an agreement that you knew you were going to lose, it was hurt feelings against a company.

[peanutgallery]

Not beaten, currently successfully paying the bills and avoiding Shimano at all cost. No one really cares. Monsanto is for those with a fetish for dates with too many appendages

Monsanto does because they can. Plenty of pharma companies who do. I imagine Shimano can do the same. Sadly, what you are saying is a myth of the beaten man. But thats what anti trust laws are for.

[peanutgallery]

You still get the cat

And when you lose I won't make you feel bad for I know it's not facts that led you to enter into an agreement that you knew you were going to lose, it was hurt feelings against a company.

[Burnette]

You still get the cat

You still get my sympathy for your loss.

[choke]

Take the feelings and emotion out and see a business as a business and realize the market waits for no one and you see what Campy is facing.

Current news:

"It will be interesting to see, if Campagnolo will survive this downturn of the market. Campagnolo’s presence in the OEM market (that is, providing components to road bike manufacturers for new bikes) is now almost zero with the exception of some expensive and small Italian brands. a newly introduced groupset, „Potenza“ failed to make an impact. The company is relying more and more on the aftersales markets where it still offers an attractive portfolio of wheels (under the Campagnolo und Fulcrum brand). However in order to be attractive in the after sales market, a company has to offer more technical advanced products than those who are OEM-equipped. And here Campagnolo is struggling.

What is left in terms of loyal customers who appreciate the image and the heritage of the brand, might be too less to keep the company afloat. And which competitor would like to buy he brand? Probably none."It really helps if you could link to the quotes....some of us want to read the whole thing rather than a soundbite.

I searched for this quote and it appears that it originated from a blog in Germany which was published on Jan 8 2017. I can't find anything on the blog which indicates that this person is in the cycling industry so if that's the case it's just the ramblings of someone with an interest in cycling....not the greatest source.

Oh...and the post itself is titled - Bicycle Business: The road racing bicycle market in 2017. An analysis based on Festive 500. The author states that...The data of Festive 500 provides therefore an easily availabe, signficant and representative data sample of global road racing activities. This data was used for the following analysis; we assumed that the Festive 500 data is more or less representative for global road racing bicycle markets. I don't even know what to say to that.

https://cyclyng.com/2017/01/08/bicycle-business-the-road-racing-bicycle-market-in-2017-an-analysis-based-on-festive-500/

[peanutgallery]

As long as shipping is on you, his name is Eddy

You still get my sympathy for your loss.

[e-RICHIE]

It really helps if you could link to the quotes....some of us want to read the whole thing rather than a soundbite.

I searched for this quote and it appears that it originated from a blog in Germany which was published on Jan 8 2017. I can't find anything on the blog which indicates that this person is in the cycling industry so if that's the case it's just the ramblings of someone with an interest in cycling....not the greatest source.

Oh...and the post itself is titled - Bicycle Business: The road racing bicycle market in 2017. An analysis based on Festive 500. The author states that... I don't even know what to say to that.

https://cyclyng.com/2017/01/08/bicycle-business-the-road-racing-bicycle-market-in-2017-an-analysis-based-on-festive-500/

I can't find anything on the blog which indicates that this person is in the cycling industry so if that's the case it's just the ramblings of someone with an interest in cycling....not the greatest source.

Agreed

[peanutgallery]

Saw an ad or something for a quill stem in the article, that's a no go

It really helps if you could link to the quotes....some of us want to read the whole thing rather than a soundbite.

I searched for this quote and it appears that it originated from a blog in Germany which was published on Jan 8 2017. I can't find anything on the blog which indicates that this person is in the cycling industry so if that's the case it's just the ramblings of someone with an interest in cycling....not the greatest source.

Oh...and the post itself is titled - Bicycle Business: The road racing bicycle market in 2017. An analysis based on Festive 500. The author states that... I don't even know what to say to that.

https://cyclyng.com/2017/01/08/bicycle-business-the-road-racing-bicycle-market-in-2017-an-analysis-based-on-festive-500/

[oldpotatoe]

^This^

SRAM has done something that Shimano has been unable to accomplish, a pretty strong parts and accessories business in addition to OEM spec. Shimano has done OK with pedals/shoes, but that is it. Shimano seatposts, stems, wheels etc have been pretty weak to tell you the truth. Shimano owns Pearl and Lazer, too - but those are kinda flat/weak, too. In the meantime, SRAM has developed a pretty good, broad, array of products and and found a way to protect their value in the current "omni-channel" market. Given SRAM''s current rate of growth and the devaluing of Shimano kit due to inaction on the omni-channel front will lead to OEM loss... I think we are looking at the next king of the heap in another year or 5. The clock is ticking for Shimano, be interesting to see if they can overcome their hubris and adjust a bit.

Campy will continue to do what Campy does

I'll take that bet..yes, as a Japanese company thru and thru, they do exhibit a fair amount if 'hubris' but sram won't overtake them in the OE market or in general bike stuff anytime soon, IMHO

[oldpotatoe]

Valentino's PR is not different than SRAMs or Shimano and you ignore the fact that Campy must grow or it will be sold for it's name eventually. It's not that I'm American, that has nothing to do with it for unlike you I have no emotional attachment to any company. It's Campy's own recent moves to stop the decline that show that they too know it's grow or die.

SRAM is a great example of where Campy should be if not better in the market at this stage.

Read this from last year:

To cut the decline of Campagnolo support the company launched the new Potenza groupset last year, aimed at the mid-range market dominated by Shimano’s Ultegra offering, but it does look like you’re still paying a premium to have Campagnolo on your bike.That could be set to change, though. Campagnolo recently launched a new groupset, Centaur, aimed at the riders who currently use Shimano 105. If Campagnolo can get the pricing right for bike manufacturers, we might see more Campagnolo-equipped bikes in the 2018 model year.

Again, if you keep up with it you would know that Campy is fighting to grow beyond old guys with fond memories that don't buy enough product to keep the lights on. It's a business, family owned and they have bills to pay.

I guess you missed the parts when Campagnolo had groups all the way down to Xenon..and that was what, 25 years ago? What Campag is attempting is streamline their groups, remain a premium group maker and have lower end groups that exhibit the same reliability and function as the higher end groups..BUT to say Campag is all wringing their hands to be a OEM force to be reckoned..is just not in keeping with their philosophy..and is not accurate.

BTW-a close look at Centaur and Potenza shows in the minto details, it is far more finished, and in fact, better groups than say apex(which is junque) or 105)..will people pay a bit more for it? They do everyday..just not OE..that you think is the golden fleece of bike stuff manufacturing.

[dumbod]

Yeah

..but do they make a corkscrew??
[emoji16]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/530f5405a700021f195673f32e06dc3c.jpg

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

I know that this was meant as a joke but I can't help thinking that a $150 corkscrew is the perfect metaphor for Campagnolo

[e-RICHIE]

I know that this was meant as a joke but I can't help thinking that a $150 corkscrew is the perfect metaphor for Campagnolo

But you know they've been making and selling these for almost 50 years. I think the family knows its place. The room around them may have changed. That doesn't mean they have to roll around and become someone / something they're not. Campagnolo's net for manufacturing and sales is a lot wider than the bicycle parts we talk about in the USA.

[Mikej]

Yes, they have to make a profit. But they are a privately owned company and they have no shareholders to cater to....so they don't have to grow into an all-conquering company. If you've ever read an interview with Valentino it's pretty clear that being a huge company is not something they aspire to be. It's hard to understand that from an American perspective but not every company sees taking over their chosen field as the prime objective.

And, as I thought, no citation.

Private company doesn’t mean there are no shareholders, in fact, the equity owners can be very powerful and have much different ideas than the company.

[Mikej]

Fun fact - Rolex is a non-profit company.

[FlashUNC]

Private company doesn’t mean there are no shareholders, in fact, the equity owners can be very powerful and have much different ideas than the company.

Campy was, and remains, owned by the Campagnolo family. Valentino calls the shots.

[colker]

As for the line "campagnolo will be for all old guys reviving glories past.." ; anyone who is paying attention to consummerism and trends around bicycles knows how wheels turn very quick.
Fixed gear riding took track bikes from deep inside traditional bike shops and made them fashionable.
All road riding made touring geometry and 28 tires the new thing.
When i look at what´s going on the last 20yrs i see it closer and closer to tradition.
That guy at Rapha saw it clearly...

[FriarQuade]

Japanese ideas, no doubt but sram is the very epitome of riding on shimano's coat tails..from freehub design/cogset design to brakes, they are the experts at copying a design, change bits to make it lighter, use the consumer to beta test...in addition, sram doesn't necessarily 'innovate' but buy the company that has the idea..re-rockshox, avid, zipp...etc. gripshift anybody?

There's a difference between designing something to be cross compatible and copying a design. Getting on board with Shimano's freehub body and cog spacing was a mandatory move to gain any significant market share. But when it came time to shed those designs to make a more versatile drive train (XD) they weren't shy about doing what it took and pushing the industry in a a new direction.

[earlfoss]

But you know they've been making and selling these for almost 50 years. I think the family knows its place. The room around them may have changed. That doesn't mean they have to roll around and become someone / something they're not. Campagnolo's net for manufacturing and sales is a lot wider than the bicycle parts we talk about in the USA.

As usual, Richard is right as rain on this one.

[oldpotatoe]

As usual, Richard is right as rain on this one.

No kidding, altho a business, Campagnolo, like a lot of older Italian brands, are more than that. Some might appreciate the sterility and ‘nuts and bolts’, $ at any cost of the two ‘S’ brands but like motorcycles, make mine European, like Ducati, same for cars, watches, vacuum cleaners, etc...imho of course.

[glepore]

Given that his business model is similar to Campagnolo’s and from what I can tell he seems contented, yes.


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[oldpotatoe]

Given that his business model is similar to Campagnolo’s and from what I can tell he seems contented, yes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree...using ‘others’ rationale, every small frame maker, from hundreds to low thousands, ‘need’ OE to survive...not true in almost every case. Isn’t that one of the big reasons Serotta went under? Trying to ‘go to the next level’? Numbers wise. Same for Lemond?

Economy of scale ensuring control and QC...bigger, bigger isn’t always ‘better’ and sometimes worse.

[Burnette]

It really helps if you could link to the quotes....some of us want to read the whole thing rather than a soundbite.

I searched for this quote and it appears that it originated from a blog in Germany which was published on Jan 8 2017. I can't find anything on the blog which indicates that this person is in the cycling industry so if that's the case it's just the ramblings of someone with an interest in cycling....not the greatest source.

Oh...and the post itself is titled - Bicycle Business: The road racing bicycle market in 2017. An analysis based on Festive 500. The author states that... I don't even know what to say to that.

https://cyclyng.com/2017/01/08/bicycle-business-the-road-racing-bicycle-market-in-2017-an-analysis-based-on-festive-500/

It's a quaint but false notion to think of Campagnolo as a mom and pop shop that only wishes to service fashion boutiques. They are family owned but they are a huge operation with multiple factories in different countries. They mass manufacture bicycle components and to stay afloat, they have to sell products in quantity. they have overhead costs just as any business.

Stay with me, don't get offended, follow the analogy. You should think of Shimano as Coca Cola, Sram as Pepsi and Campagnolo as a small struggling brand. They all fight for shelf space (OEM sales) because that's 70% of the business. As you lose shelf space, you lose sells, you lose capital for maintenance , upgrades, R&D and the ability of bargain with the stores or survive market downturns. The smaller you are, the more vulnerable you are. They have to maintain size and capital to remain relevant and competitive.

Listen, if Campy only wanted to cater to affluent boomers and high dollar custom operations, they would need to be anywhere near as big as they are today to take care of that niche. If that's all they had they would be closing plants and laying off workers.

No, Campagnolo doesn't want to be that, they are fighting to grow but are cost burdened and profit strained. Remember in 2015 Campy made a move to manufacture in Romania? Why did they do that? Again, to cater to the rich niche, they wouldn't need to do such. Campy is fighting with Shimano and Sram on entry level options and price across the board to tap into the lucrative OEM market.

[Burnette]

I guess you missed the parts when Campagnolo had groups all the way down to Xenon..and that was what, 25 years ago? What Campag is attempting is streamline their groups, remain a premium group maker and have lower end groups that exhibit the same reliability and function as the higher end groups..BUT to say Campag is all wringing their hands to be a OEM force to be reckoned..is just not in keeping with their philosophy..and is not accurate.

BTW-a close look at Centaur and Potenza shows in the minto details, it is far more finished, and in fact, better groups than say apex(which is junque) or 105)..will people pay a bit more for it? They do everyday..just not OE..that you think is the golden fleece of bike stuff manufacturing.

The Centaur and Potenza lines where direct attempts at OEM sales and failed due to price. OEM contracts live and die on price and a costlier product is a n in starter. And again, you say people pay more for Campy everyday aftermarket, Shimano and Sram would happily give that to Campy (they don't give it, they compete there too) because that only constitutes 30% of the market. And how many in the US bought Camoy through Chain Reaction, Wiggle and Ribble over the years? That discount in price was a factor, just as it is for OEM bike makers dealing with component makers.

[Burnette]

Private company doesn’t mean there are no shareholders, in fact, the equity owners can be very powerful and have much different ideas than the company.

Correct, it's not like Campagnolo doesn't have to show a profit. They have all the trappings of a large company, insurance, employees, factories and a market that is saturated and suffering from price erosion.

* I found an article from about their first attempt at stopping the slide over the cliff, when they moved to open a plant in Romania. Linked for thise who don't like sound bites:

In a statement issued on Wednesday, the business said the Vicenza facility (which road.cc visited in 2011) is becoming increasingly uncompetitive and the company could no longer rely on its brand strength or high-performance products alone.

They say it should instead invest in making the Vicenza facilities more efficient and competitive to meet “the new challenges of the global market.”

While Campagnolo continues to be respected for its technical innovation and the build quality and performance of its products, in recent years the cycling components market has become a much more competitive place.

Besides rival Shimano, SRAM has become a major player, particularly in the original equipment market for new bikes, from which Campagnolo has been all but ousted.



* http://road.cc/content/news/141525-campagnolo-strike-threat-1-5-jobs-cut-vicenza-hq

I think quite a few here have their hearts tied to the company, I get it, but just like a bike shop owner that runs it with his heart instead of his head, Campy would already be dead if they were what you thought they were. They are a very large business, they make bicycles components for the masses. The fact that old guys in $200 jeans dig them doesn't mean that Campy isn't targeting the rest of the demographic, for that's were the real money lies.

[cadence90]

I know that this was meant as a joke but I can't help thinking that a $150 corkscrew is the perfect metaphor for Campagnolo
But in fact it is not a joke at all, and it is also in fact an excellent metaphor:
the Campagnolo corkscrew has been around for decades; has been beloved just as long; is found in just about every decent restaurant in Northern Italy, at least; and is actually a very good value for the cost.

So, not only is it an extremely durable product which performs its duties perfectly and reliably; and not only is it beautifully designed and engineered; and not only is it an example of the "filosofia ed etica Campagnolo" through and through; it is also a great symbol of Campagnolo's constant, strong relationship to its historical and cultural context.

So take that, fishing reels and odd acronyms.... ;)

But you know they've been making and selling these for almost 50 years. I think the family knows its place. The room around them may have changed. That doesn't mean they have to roll around and become someone / something they're not. Campagnolo's net for manufacturing and sales is a lot wider than the bicycle parts we talk about in the USA.
Exactly.
.

[dumbod]

actually a very good value for the cost.

.

I don't have anything for or against Campagnolo but to say that ANY corkscrew costing $150 is good value is really stretching it. Granted, irrational purchases exist only in the mind of non-purchasers but you will never persuade me that that corkscrew is 100 times more functional or will last 100 times longer than the good old-fashioned waiters friend you can buy for $1.50 at restaurant supply houses.

[colker]

Campagnolo has good names on tehir groups: Chorus, Centaur, Record, Potenza.

Ultegra?
I do like shimano cranksets for their quality and sticking to aluminum.

[colker]

I don't have anything for or against Campagnolo but to say that ANY corkscrew costing $150 is good value is really stretching it. Granted, irrational purchases exist only in the mind of non-purchasers but you will never persuade me that that corkscrew is 100 times more functional or will last 100 times longer than the good old-fashioned waiters friend you can buy for $1.50 at restaurant supply houses.

How much does your bottle of wine cost?

[e-RICHIE]

I don't have anything for or against Campagnolo but to say that ANY corkscrew costing $150 is good value is really stretching it. Granted, irrational purchases exist only in the mind of non-purchasers but you will never persuade me that that corkscrew is 100 times more functional or will last 100 times longer than the good old-fashioned waiters friend you can buy for $1.50 at restaurant supply houses.

That same brush can be used to broad stroke every bicycle, component, and piece of apparel discussed here going back to when Gary ran the place.

[benb]

So much emotion in this.. clearly:

- Campy inspires a lot of emotion from the few who have ridden it, and benefits from the exclusiveness thing just like all luxury goods. Campy might not actually want to be a luxury good worldwide but in the US I think cyclists treat it that way
- SRAM inspires lots of bad emotions from those of us who have had SRAM stuff break faster than Campy or Shimano stuff, and good emotions from people who've gotten their hands on technology that SRAM puts out well before Shimano or Campy feel ready to do so
- Shimano inspires a lot of bad emotions from shop owners and people "in the channel".

What I find most amusing is anyone calling road bikes the "most performance centric category" and the key.

Road bikes have gotta be the least performance centric category. As in the performance of the bikes has changed the least over the years and contributes the least to the result in a given race.

Campy hasn't even tried in MTB and that is where most of the innovation has occurred over the years from Shimano and SRAM.

If you disagree with me how come this forum heavily questions (and for very good reason) every new "advance" with road bikes. Whether it is 9 speeds are not needed, 10/11 speeds are not needed, carbon in frames/forks/wheels/stems/bars/saddles is not needed, disc brakes are not needed, electric shifting is not needed, everyone complains about everything new. I include myself in all of this of course, I have pretty regularly stayed one generation back on drivetrains, have no desire for electronic shifting, don't see any real need for road disc any time soon, and have never bought a carbon wheel.

Road needs the new stuff so little Campy is probably right with some of their conservatism.

No one is complaining about a 2018 mountain bike vs a 1990 one though!

[cadence90]

I don't have anything for or against Campagnolo but to say that ANY corkscrew costing $150 is good value is really stretching it. Granted, irrational purchases exist only in the mind of non-purchasers but you will never persuade me that that corkscrew is 100 times more functional or will last 100 times longer than the good old-fashioned waiters friend you can buy for $1.50 at restaurant supply houses.
$1.50? Seriously? That's just ridiculous, sorry. $1.50 pot metal doesn't compare. :rolleyes:

Put another way, would just about every decent restaurant in Northern Italy, at least, as well as every other restaurant in the world that has one, use this corkscrew, night in/night out for decades if it was NOT a good value?

I think not.

Restaurateurs aren't throwing their money away on over-priced, bad-quality, "irrational" products. Neither should cyclists.
.

[FlashUNC]

Campy hasn't even tried in MTB and that is where most of the innovation has occurred over the years from Shimano and SRAM.



They did. It didn't go so well.

[oldpotatoe]

It's a quaint but false notion to think of Campagnolo as a mom and pop shop that only wishes to service fashion boutiques. They are family owned but they are a huge operation with multiple factories in different countries. They mass manufacture bicycle components and to stay afloat, they have to sell products in quantity. they have overhead costs just as any business.

Stay with me, don't get offended, follow the analogy. You should think of Shimano as Coca Cola, Sram as Pepsi and Campagnolo as a small struggling brand. They all fight for shelf space (OEM sales) because that's 70% of the business. As you lose shelf space, you lose sells, you lose capital for maintenance , upgrades, R&D and the ability of bargain with the stores or survive market downturns. The smaller you are, the more vulnerable you are. They have to maintain size and capital to remain relevant and competitive.

Listen, if Campy only wanted to cater to affluent boomers and high dollar custom operations, they would need to be anywhere near as big as they are today to take care of that niche. If that's all they had they would be closing plants and laying off workers.

No, Campagnolo doesn't want to be that, they are fighting to grow but are cost burdened and profit strained. Remember in 2015 Campy made a move to manufacture in Romania? Why did they do that? Again, to cater to the rich niche, they wouldn't need to do such. Campy is fighting with Shimano and Sram on entry level options and price across the board to tap into the lucrative OEM market.

Campag has been in Romania well before 2015 and if they were closed ncerned, as you think they are, they would make their stuff in Asia..again, think small frame builders and OE.

[colker]

Campy hasn't even tried in MTB and that is where most of the innovation has occurred over the years from Shimano and SRAM.



What innovation from Shimano on mountain biking? Most if not all inovation in MTB is due to garage tinkerers. Shimano buys or rip offs.
Rock shox was the big innovation.. suspension... Sram bought rock shox. Sram´s engineers didn´t come out w/ the concept of front suspension.
Did shimano invent disc brakes? Did they invent clipless pedals?
Unless you consider more gears on a cassette a huge inovation those big corporations market what was created by guys in garages.

[Burnette]

Campag has been in Romania well before 2015 and if they were closed ncerned, as you think they are, they would make their stuff in Asia..again, think small frame builders and OE.

Read the article for the reasons they aren't in Asia. Snd think OEM first and small frame builders, though I'm a huge fan, don't move the market needle one bit.

[m4rk540]

Who would have thought that in 2018, anyone would be claiming that SRAM could become the No. 1 player and that Campagnolo would finally be irrelevant. Before etap and 1x, SRAM was becoming a joke (warranty above innovation). Do a quick search and discover that SRAM was probably the most vulnerable company a few years back. Anyway, anyone can do wireless and 1x is not rocket science. So, if Shimano and Campy decide that silly trends are worth pursuing will they make SRAM irrelevant?

[Burnette]

Who would have thought that in 2018, anyone would be claiming that SRAM could become the No. 1 player and that Campagnolo would finally be irrelevant. Before etap and 1x, SRAM was becoming a joke (warranty above innovation). Do a quick search and discover that SRAM was probably the most vulnerable company a few years back. Anyway, anyone can do wireless and 1x is not rocket science. So, if Shimano and Campy decide that silly trends are worth pursuing will they make SRAM irrelevant?

We all are trampling over the real story, SRAM didn't topple Shimano and won't anytime soon as the shear size and reach of Shimano.It has three times the profit of SRAM and they are ingrained in product plans of all the major bike makers globally.

About SRAM. What balls SRAM had with eTap. It could have done them in if not executed right. But make no mistake, SRAM is still in the fire and has to stay lean and innovate or die. Their OEM gains across the board in road and MTB has been their best achievement and has allowed them to press forward with a strategy of growth.

[1centaur]

When I was in undergrad business school one of my favorite professors was from Harvard Business School. He asked us naive 20-year-olds if a business had to grow or die. Naively, we thought it could just maintain and live. Experience has taught me that grow or die is likely to be the correct choice. But really, all businesses die, it's just a matter of time. Much of this thread has ignored that. The only real debate is whether Campy will die in the next 5, 10, or 50 years? Family-owned businesses often die because the goals of the older generation are not matched by the goals of a younger generation. And growth papers over the decay of older products. Trying to maintain a business means the capital to be cost competitive eventually is not available at a good rate.

So while a non-growing business may provide enough income for owners who don't believe in maximization for a while, eventually somebody inside or outside demands more than that. Campy's end, when it comes, will be swifter because it is relatively small.

[Burnette]

When I was in undergrad business school one of my favorite professors was from Harvard Business School. He asked us naive 20-year-olds if a business had to grow or die. Naively, we thought it could just maintain and live. Experience has taught me that grow or die is likely to be the correct choice. But really, all businesses die, it's just a matter of time. Much of this thread has ignored that. The only real debate is whether Campy will die in the next 5, 10, or 50 years? Family-owned businesses often die because the goals of the older generation are not matched by the goals of a younger generation. And growth papers over the decay of older products. Trying to maintain a business means the capital to be cost competitive eventually is not available at a good rate.

So while a non-growing business may provide enough income for owners who don't believe in maximization for a while, eventually somebody inside or outside demands more than that. Campy's end, when it comes, will be swifter because it is relatively small.

Absolutely. Again, if Campy thought the way some here did (Campy doesn't) and stuck their head in the sand they would lose employees, factories and even more capital. They would be worth no more than their brand name.

SRAM has to be commended for being aggressive in strategy and performing well in execution. And very day is a race, they have stay price competitive for OEM sales with a competitor that's three times as big, maintain enough capital to weather a financial storm, all while still innovating.

[e-RICHIE]

Absolutely. Again, if Campy thought the way some here did (Campy doesn't) and stuck their head in the sand they would lose employees, factories and even more capital. They would be worth no more than their brand name.


I think that's a good thing. It's certainly better than being worth less.

PS I don't know how Campagnolo thinks; I can only imagine.

[Black Dog]

I think that's a good thing. It's certainly better than being worth less.

PS I don't know how Campagnolo thinks; I can only imagine.

Exactly, no one posting here knows what they are thinking and planning. It is speculation. They do not publish their plans and strategies and never thier fears. Reading what others speculate in publications and assuming that is what is going on is not a good path to the truth.

[Burnette]

I think that's a good thing. It's certainly better than being worth less.

PS I don't know how Campagnolo thinks; I can only imagine.

What makes it a bad thing is if their brand name is worth is more than their equipment, property and inventory, they would be in danger of having to sell that name.

Campagnolo is no where near such a dire situation, but again, if many here had their wish and Campy just went after the very small after market sales segment and sells to high dollar bike boutiques they wouldn't need the massive operation they have now. Factories would close, people would lose their jobs and the family would loose huge amounts of capital. Campy is having none of that and instead are working to regain it's footing. And if SRAM can do it, who says Campy cannot?

As I said, for everyone in business every day is a battle and Campy is still in the fight.

[Burnette]

Exactly, no one posting here knows what they are thinking and planning. It is speculation. They do not publish there plans and strategies and never thier fears. Reading what others speculate in publications and assuming that is what is going on is not a good path to the truth.

What Campagnolo is thinking and planning is public in this thread and on the internet. Their plans to cut costs, their plans to get m ore OEM sales and their fear of irrelevancy.

[glepore]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2341223
About SRAM. What balls SRAM had with eTap. It could have done them in if not executed right. But make no mistake, SRAM is still in the fire and has to stay lean and innovate or die. Their OEM gains across the board in road and MTB has been their best achievement and has allowed them to press forward with a strategy of growth.[/QUOTE]

I'll give them credit - they learned from their hyd experience and didn't repeat it.
They're on a roll, but cash reserves and market cap almost always prevail.

[e-RICHIE]

What Campagnolo is thinking and planning is public in this thread and on the internet. Their plans to cut costs, their plans to get more OEM sales and their fear of irrelevancy.

I have been using Campagnolo parts since I began cycling and paying retail in 1968. What you are saying (above) is what they've done since I first heard the name. I no longer pay retail, but I'm glad to say that the brand's place - that of being simultaneously la crème de la crème as well as being the outlier, in the margins so to speak - has never changed. In the world of business, Campagnolo has always been heart, not head. It seems to work despite what others are doing or scheming for the next go-round.

[tkbike]

I agree, most innovation from MTB happens in the garage, there are people on this forum who claim to have “invented mountain biking” but it was going on long before they existed. I was given a 26” rollfast in 1965 and promptly took off the coaster brake, fenders and chain guard, replaced the bars with a straight piece of pipe and hit the dirt with the older kids who had been doing it since the late 50’s on the east coast.

I rode Shimano until 3 years ago, but all my bikes are SRAM now, Shimano has not kept up at all.

What innovation from Shimano on mountain biking? Most if not all inovation in MTB is due to garage tinkerers. Shimano buys or rip offs.
Rock shox was the big innovation.. suspension... Sram bought rock shox. Sram´s engineers didn´t come out w/ the concept of front suspension.
Did shimano invent disc brakes? Did they invent clipless pedals?
Unless you consider more gears on a cassette a huge inovation those big corporations market what was created by guys in garages.

[Burnette]

I have been using Campagnolo parts since I began cycling and paying retail in 1968. What you are saying (above) is what they've done since I first heard the name. I no longer pay retail, but I'm glad to say that the brand's place - that of beyond simultaneously la crème de la crème as well as being the outlier, in the margins so to speak - has never changed. In the world of business, Campagnolo has always been heart, not head. It seems to work despite what others are doing or scheming for the next go-round.

I'm blessed/cursed with an analytical mind but what that garners for me is clear reality and fact based reasoning. I get the nostalgia but Campagnolo makes bicycle components for which there is no shortage of in the world. Price is their Achilles Heel and thank you for acknowledging that you too don't pay retail. Most even here, to read their own words have sourced Campy from outlets for less than retail in the US. It's what has hurt them for OEM too. Price is a factor for even those with money, ask me how I know. Davide Campagnolo himself cited the their operations in the US as a place where they have to do better to survive.

And again I say it's a fallacy to think that Campy is happy to evaporate and shrink for you can find their own words, their own plans to the contrary. It takes big money to stay in the game and after market sales alone won't keep them in it.

The strategy for a custom bicycle frame maker does not work in the macro world of bicycle components.

I do feel that you know that if you toured Campy today you wouldn't see an old guy in the corner polishing a hub for hours, you would see endless cubicles with computers, automated equipment and pallets of components ready to ship.

It's a business through and through. And there isn't enough old guys here buying Campy to pay expenses for a month total at all facilities. This demographic is aging out and cheap as hell too I might add, Ha! Campy needs scale just as much as SRAM does. And new customers. Campy cannot and will not survive on nostalgia alone. We're both old enough to have seen the forever there one day disappear the next. It can happen.

Much like you say about new bike brands here trying to make a name and a place here, a bicycle making business reaches a tipping point where they either shrink and specialize or die a hard death trying to beat Trek and Specialized, Campy is indeed in that type of fight right now.

Sure, they could shrink to your nostalgic notion but it would be a harsh fall that would cost them dearly in capital, property and employees. And it would just make them even more vulnerable to a buyout than they are now.

I think that people who do have feelings for Campy should first and foremost buy the stuff. Secondly you should want them to fight for market share. In business you don't get "your place" from past memories, you get them from results today. And if they don't work at it the market will place them where they earned to be.

Yesterday was so yesterday in todays world.

[beeatnik]

I may be an outlier but I only use SRAMs on my dumbest, simplest bike. Here's some 1970's level innovation:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4771/40955436942_11a20fa908_h.jpg

Levers, cranks and chain. World changing technology which gets me to Trader Joe's in style.

[colker]

I'm blessed/cursed with an analytical mind but what that garners for me is clear reality and fact based reasoning. I get the nostalgia but Campagnolo makes bicycle components for which there is no shortage of in the world. Price is their Achilles Heel and thank you for acknowledging that you too don't pay retail. Most even here, to read their own words have sourced Campy from outlets for less than retail in the US. It's what has hurt them for OEM too. Price is a factor for even those with money, ask me how I know. Davide Campagnolo himself cited the their operations in the US as a place where they have to do better to survive.

And again I say it's a fallacy to think that Campy is happy to evaporate and shrink for you can find their own words, their own plans to the contrary. It takes big money to stay in the game and after market sales alone won't keep them in it.

The strategy for a custom bicycle frame maker does not work in the macro world of bicycle components.

I do feel that you know that if you toured Campy today you wouldn't see an old guy in the corner polishing a hub for hours, you would see endless cubicles with computers, automated equipment and pallets of components ready to ship.

It's a business through and through. And there isn't enough old guys here buying Campy to pay expenses for a month total at all facilities. This demographic is aging out and cheap as hell too I might add, Ha! Campy needs scale just as much as SRAM does. And new customers. Campy cannot and will not survive on nostalgia alone. We're both old enough to have seen the forever there one day disappear the next. It can happen.

Much like you say about new bike brands here trying to make a name and a place here, a bicycle making business reaches a tipping point where they either shrink and specialize or die a hard death trying to beat Trek and Specialized, Campy is indeed in that type of fight right now.

Sure, they could shrink to your nostalgic notion but it would be a harsh fall that would cost them dearly in capital, property and employees. And it would just make them even more vulnerable to a buyout than they are now.

I think that people who do have feelings for Campy should first and foremost buy the stuff. Secondly you should want them to fight for market share. In business you don't get "your place" from past memories, you get them from results today. And if they don't work at it the market will place them where they earned to be.

Yesterday was so yesterday in todays world.

It´s not nostalgia. You keep saying campagnolo survives on old guy´s nostalgia but it´s not true. It´s performance, ergonomics and design.
Campagnolo is selling hardcore racing equipment. It does not perform less than anything. It would be nostalgia if it gave you the performance of a 70s groupset.
There is a young crowd riding on more nostalgia builds than the old guys you are quoting. They don´t see it as nostalgia but all the performance they need plus style.. Cycling is a lot about style. A lot of money is spent on style and design. Campagnolo has performance and style. People will pay more for style. If they didn´t, Nike, Adidas, Apple, Swatch etc.. would never take off. I phones would never exist wasn´t for style craving masses.

[CSKeller]

I am enjoying this spirited conversation!

As entertaining as it is, I will always have Campagnolo on my road bikes as long as they exist. Nothing else compares!!!

And I will have Sram on my mtn bikes (they are older 26ers with Shimano XT hubs and crank). Yes, I have gripshift and I prefer it on my mtn bikes.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[weisan]

Just read the article, a few thoughts and knee-jerk reactions:

1) Very nice and thoughtful cyclist-friendly workplace
- some would say that's a no-brainer consider it's a bike component company. Actually no. Those things are expensive and unless it's very intentional and being instigated from the top or by a group of people with influence within the company, bike friendly amenities are hard to come by in the workplace.

2) Related to point 1.Sterile work environment
I have nothing to base this on except the impression I get out of looking at the pictures and maybe it's just the way the person taking the pictures had decided to stage the scenes. I don't see a whole lot of people gather together collaborating or having impromptu meetings.

3) what's the brother of the CEO doing at the company??
Sorry...my internal alarm goes off everytime I see a close relative being hired. Call me bias or prejudice if you want, personally, I like to maintain a safety distance especially if I am higher up in the food chain.

4) interesting self-admissions
a) In the interview, the CEO admitted that the challenge facing them is "execution." There's a sense that they are spread too thin or have their hands dipped in too many pies.
b) riding on the 15% wave
The uptick in the business is providing a certain level of protection for them at the moment. How they capitalize on that in the next 5-10 years will be crucial and will determine their future.

I won't get embroiled in the eternal discussion about Campagnolo vs shimano vs
SRAM. Personally, I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other. But I do have a curious question I wanted to ask eRichie pal and perhaps a few others who might fall under the same category.

I have noticed that Ritchie pal only shows up and joins a discussion on certain topics. Campagnolo is one of those topics.

I am curious to know "why".

What garnered such interest or passion?

[oldpotatoe]

What makes it a bad thing is if their brand name is worth is more than their equipment, property and inventory, they would be in danger of having to sell that name.

Campagnolo is no where near such a dire situation, but again, if many here had their wish and Campy just went after the very small after market sales segment and sells to high dollar bike boutiques they wouldn't need the massive operation they have now. Factories would close, people would lose their jobs and the family would loose huge amounts of capital. Campy is having none of that and instead are working to regain it's footing. And if SRAM can do it, who says Campy cannot?

As I said, for everyone in business every day is a battle and Campy is still in the fight.

But, but, but, you implied they were on death's door step.

'Massive', YGBSM..take a tour, the number of actual employees on the factory floor is very small..and very dedicated, i might add..you mentioned 'loose their employees' somewhere.

They aren't 'working to regain their footing'. sram is a completely different philosohy..they own zero factories but contract out to various asian manufacturing places to make their stuff. Chicago/sram? A bunch of offices and banners.

Valentino(and I have talked to him some), is happy with the way things are. They aren't dying, they are innovating and their component and wheel biz is doing fine. Whether you believe it or not. :)

For shimano and sram, OE is where it's at. NOT for Campagnolo or a variety of other small, premium brands, mostly European.

[oldpotatoe]

I do feel that you know that if you toured Campy today you wouldn't see an old guy in the corner polishing a hub for hours, you would see endless cubicles with computers, automated equipment and pallets of components ready to ship.

Not true, in fact, their ERGO levers, as an example, are hand assembled.

Much like you say about new bike brands here trying to make a name and a place here, a bicycle making business reaches a tipping point where they either shrink and specialize or die a hard death trying to beat Trek and Specialized, Campy is indeed in that type of fight right now.


Once more, disagree..Campagnolo doesn't want to be like shimano and particularly like sram..They don't want to be 'Sarto', and try to beat trekspecializedcannondalegiant, at their own game..again..see a company like Moots or Seven..BIG but not OE in any way nor do they want to be.

again, sram and shimano, dry, sterile, nuts and bolts, $, numbers, margin...dry. One very Japanese, the other, very American..so their point of view is predictable..my way or the high way..no middle ground. Campagnolo, rilassati, calmi, andrà bene...in a good way. Even their language speaks of beauty, the finer things.....

As much as you would like to put this as a 'business', only, for some makers, it's a bit more than that..IMHO, of course.

[R3awak3n]

I don't disagree with you on this and its great that they might be all like, we are italian and we gonna do things our way, and everything is great, dip some foccacia on that olive oil... but they run the risk of not being around in 20 years. Will younger people care about tradition? or hand build ergos?

the thing is, for people to care about tradition, they have to be brought up with that tradition, otherwise it will just be more expensive stuff that might be or might not be better.

Not saying it won't happen but if I was 20, I probably would not choose campy since its substantially more expensive than shimano/sram. Also not being oem they loose the new comers... thats not good because their next bike they might go back to what they know, shimano... My first bike was campy, naturally my second had campy too, and third, forth, ect... Just recently I put sram on one of my bikes and shim on other, had I never been on campy I would probably not be on it still (or maybe I would who knows)

Campy is trying to make cheaper groups but the cheaper stuff does not have what makes campy, campy. PT kind of sucks compared to UT, the centaur finish is kinda crap as well. Potenza is very nice for the most part but its not cheap like 105, its more an ultegra. I am rooting for campy because I do like what they are about, I appreciate that their stuff is still made in Europe. I don't care if they make it in Romania, its still better than being made in China (not that stuff made in China is bad but I think wages a bit more fair in Romania).

Only time will tell.

oh and as far as electric groups, both campy and shim will come out with some sort of wireless. Sram did it first and they were very smart. Its a good group.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't disagree with you on this and its great that they might be all like, we are italian and we gonna do things our way, and everything is great, dip some foccacia on that olive oil... but they run the risk of not being around in 20 years. Will younger people care about tradition? or hand build ergos?

the thing is, for people to care about tradition, they have to be brought up with that tradition, otherwise it will just be more expensive stuff that might be or might not be better.

Not saying it won't happen but if I was 20, I probably would not choose campy since its substantially more expensive than shimano/sram. Also not being oem they loose the new comers... thats not good because their next bike they might go back to what they know, shimano... My first bike was campy, naturally my second had campy too, and third, forth, ect... Just recently I put sram on one of my bikes and shim on other, had I never been on campy I would probably not be on it still (or maybe I would who knows)

Campy is trying to make cheaper groups but the cheaper stuff does not have what makes campy, campy. PT kind of sucks compared to UT, the centaur finish is kinda crap as well. Potenza is very nice for the most part but its not cheap like 105, its more an ultegra. I am rooting for campy because I do like what they are about, I appreciate that their stuff is still made in Europe. I don't care if they make it in Romania, its still better than being made in China (not that stuff made in China is bad but I think wages a bit more fair in Romania).

Only time will tell.

oh and as far as electric groups, both campy and shim will come out with some sort of wireless. Sram did it first and they were very smart. Its a good group.

Valentino was interviewed not long ago and he was very adamant about preserving the family and company philosophy..to include, no Campagnolo made in Asia.

But it really isn't, substantially. The distribution and interweb has skewed pricing so much, it's really hard to say what's what. MAP/MSRP..group for group, very similar. Record->DA, Potenza-ultegra, Centaur->105, type stuff.

shimano sram is OE, period and they smack each other around in that arena everyday. But buy frame and buy group? Campagnolo's market share using that metric is much larger than the over-all sales figures would indicate.

Campag has made low end groups for years..Xenon, Stratos, Veloce, Centaur..Potenza is 'supposed' to be priced like ultegra..their similarity in 'finish' is not a mistake.

We'll see about wireless..the etap advantage is setup, period..no functional advantage to wireless, none. And 'some' will say the one example of wireless, functionally(speed, shift logic, features, connectivity), is far better with the 2 wired groups.

[William]

Any business that tries to wait it out will be just that, out. In bike parts, you're either growing or you're dying. There ain't no third direction.








William

[oldpotatoe]

William

Any business that tries to wait it out will be just that, out. In bike parts, you're either growing or you're dying. There ain't no third direction.

That's what they teach in American biz schools, for sure. :eek:

Economy of scale, being more efficient and not shrinking.I think is key. Campagnolo market share has been consistent for a while. There are many examples of successful companies that are small, don't grow, bigger, bigger, bigger..or die, is not the metric. The bike biz has been flat for a long time..grow 5%, somebody else shrinks by 5%..that's what is happening with OE and shimano/sram..now. BUT aftermarket group sales a very small part of their biz model..not so for Campagnolo..

[colker]

I don't disagree with you on this and its great that they might be all like, we are italian and we gonna do things our way, and everything is great, dip some foccacia on that olive oil... but they run the risk of not being around in 20 years. Will younger people care about tradition? or hand build ergos?

the thing is, for people to care about tradition, they have to be brought up with that tradition, otherwise it will just be more expensive stuff that might be or might not be better.

Not saying it won't happen but if I was 20, I probably would not choose campy since its substantially more expensive than shimano/sram. Also not being oem they loose the new comers... thats not good because their next bike they might go back to what they know, shimano... My first bike was campy, naturally my second had campy too, and third, forth, ect... Just recently I put sram on one of my bikes and shim on other, had I never been on campy I would probably not be on it still (or maybe I would who knows)

Campy is trying to make cheaper groups but the cheaper stuff does not have what makes campy, campy. PT kind of sucks compared to UT, the centaur finish is kinda crap as well. Potenza is very nice for the most part but its not cheap like 105, its more an ultegra. I am rooting for campy because I do like what they are about, I appreciate that their stuff is still made in Europe. I don't care if they make it in Romania, its still better than being made in China (not that stuff made in China is bad but I think wages a bit more fair in Romania).

Only time will tell.

oh and as far as electric groups, both campy and shim will come out with some sort of wireless. Sram did it first and they were very smart. Its a good group.

Campy may not be around in 20yrs. Who will be around in 20 yrs? They are around now.I check the radavist for younger people´s taste and i see curiosity and reverence for tradition. I see campagnolo on their bikes.
Who would tell a track bike would be a symbol of youth in 2018? Did anyone have a plan? Did we stimulate the youngsters or had classes about old cycling traditions? Everybody was commuting on mountain bikes w/ 27 gears and front suspension. Next someone found out how to be faster on skinny tires and minimalist bikes. Fast is better. He looked smarter. Suddenly Cinelli was a cool name to say out loud.
Market is b%tch slapping us in the face everyday. NOthing is forever. Everything may come back: touring bikes are the next big thing and they are called all rounders. Style has a lot to do w/ traditions.
Less is more. BUsiness logic is not the end all of market forces.

[William]

I would love to see more Campy wheel sets on the road...





:)
William

[oldpotatoe]

I would love to see more Campy wheel sets on the road...





:)
William

As an aside, after Campagnolo disasterous foray into MTB stuff, Valentino sold everything 'Campagnolo' except for the bike stuff. Designed a working slant parallelogram rear der and ERGO(late 80s early 90s)and the rest, they say, is history. Campag had one of the premier magnesium casting business' in Europe at the time, as seen in their wheels as well as lots of magnesium parts on aircraft..like landing gear.

[El Chaba]

I think it's important no note-as OP did- that the bicycle market is in a general downward trend. Fewer people are participating, those who do are doing less (e.g. race registration numbers are down), etc. While it seems to be quite fashionable to predict Campagnolo's demise, they are probably the least likely of the three to see a sales decline and are probably in the best position to deal with it. As for OEM sales, they are great for market share, but not so great for profit. If you are the person responsible specifying parts for a bike brand, what you want to do is specify Shimano. They are reliable and dominant and causes you the least trouble. SRAM is desperately trying to increase market share. the only way they can do it is on price.

[thegunner]

i have no particular side in this discussion, but the amount of snark people have defending brands is sometimes absurd / borderline unnecessary *shrug*

[Bob Ross]

I think the whole panties-in-a-bunch reaction comes from the confusing use of the term "performance" when talking about companies that manufacture "performance-oriented" cycling gear.

As I wrote over on the NYCC message board when this same article was cited:

>>I totally get how SRAM and Shimano completely own the market, and that Campy is barely a blip on that radar dollar-wise...but "performance"-wise, is he delusional?

I'm pretty gruppo-agnostic -- I own one bike each with Campy, Shimano, SRAM, and Suntour -- so I'm not defending this as a rabid Campy fan...but fwiw I spent this past weekend doing a ~70 mile ride on the bike equipped with the 3 month old SRAM eTap group, and a ~90 mile ride on the bike equipped with the 2 year old Campy Record group. Guess which bike consistently shifted more reliably, crisply, cleany? If that ain't "performance" I don't know what that guy is talking about.<<

So if he was really just talking about revenue performance or market-share performance, he could have avoided any of this backlash by simply qualifying the term. Or using a different word entirely.

[54ny77]

yup.

fact is, they all work very well but most new stuff is hideous beaten-with-an-ugly-stick ugly.

and that's what really matters.

:p

i have no particular side in this discussion, but the amount of snark people have defending brands is sometimes absurd / borderline unnecessary *shrug*

[weisan]

I think it's important no note-as OP did- that the bicycle market is in a general downward trend. Fewer people are participating, those who do are doing less (e.g. race registration numbers are down), etc. While it seems to be quite fashionable to predict Campagnolo's demise, they are probably the least likely of the three to see a sales decline and are probably in the best position to deal with it. As for OEM sales, they are great for market share, but not so great for profit. If you are the person responsible specifying parts for a bike brand, what you want to do is specify Shimano. They are reliable and dominant and causes you the least trouble. SRAM is desperately trying to increase market share. the only way they can do it is on price.

We used to have a saying in IT...nobody gets fired for purchasing Dell. Not the sexiest or the most reliable but the safest bet. Not sure if it's still true today, probably is.

[SoCalSteve]

Valentino was interviewed not long ago and he was very adamant about preserving the family and company philosophy..to include, no Campagnolo made in Asia.

But it really isn't, substantially. The distribution and interweb has skewed pricing so much, it's really hard to say what's what. MAP/MSRP..group for group, very similar. Record->DA, Potenza-ultegra, Centaur->105, type stuff.

shimano sram is OE, period and they smack each other around in that arena everyday. But buy frame and buy group? Campagnolo's market share using that metric is much larger than the over-all sales figures would indicate.

Campag has made low end groups for years..Xenon, Stratos, Veloce, Centaur..Potenza is 'supposed' to be priced like ultegra..their similarity in 'finish' is not a mistake.

We'll see about wireless..the etap advantage is setup, period..no functional advantage to wireless, none. And 'some' will say the one example of wireless, functionally(speed, shift logic, features, connectivity), is far better with the 2 wired groups.


Respectfully ol spud, you are wrong. I’ve gone over the pluses of ETap many times on here. Until you get an ETap group, install it and ride it for a few hundred miles, I feel your comments regarding ETap hold no water. You can hate the gentleman at SRAM who did you wrong, but don’t hate something you have very little experience with. Doesn’t bode well for you. Again, respectfully.

[Bob Ross]

the etap advantage is setup, period..no functional advantage to wireless, none.
Respectfully ol spud, you are wrong. I’ve gone over the pluses of ETap many times on here.

I've only owned eTap since January, and have already noticed two advantages that have nothing to do with setup:
- for an S&S coupled travel bike, it's a no-brainer: Much easier than dealing with that Lego® junction box buried somewhere in the downtube, and the proprietary tool for plugging/unplugging wires into it.
- Winter riding with thick gloves or mittens on: The eTap paddles are enormous and so easier to find/actuate than either the Di2 or EPS alternatives.

But I also wouldn't call either of those a "performance" advantage. Those are "practical" advantages.

[earlfoss]

My experience with ETap so far has been positive. It seems to me that SRAM has put out a durable, dependable product and I'm happy to race the heck out of it this season. As a racer I think its advantages are the same as any electronic group over mechanical.

In a race situation where the chips are down and there's little headspace for groupset quirks, the biggest advantage is zero effort front shifting. Pressing a button instead of actuating a cable is something I really appreciate. It's a small thing on an everyday ride, but it's huge when racing. Same goes for rear shifting, especially on climbs where you're going around the biggest ~4 cogs regularly while at max effort. The ders just slam the chain over regardless of where you are in the pedal stroke. Not the best for drivetrain longevity, but so what when there's a win on the line.

The only cons to ETap that I've experienced so far would be that the front der is finicky to set up, but once it's set you're all good. The other is that the rear shifting is ever so slightly slower than it should be. When it's do or die in a race that kind of delay is not ideal. Like anything, you adapt your shifting style and timing and then it's no longer a significant issue. At least not enough to make me go back to Campagnolo EPS.

[makoti]

I've only owned eTap since January, and have already noticed two advantages that have nothing to do with setup:
- for an S&S coupled travel bike, it's a no-brainer: Much easier than dealing with that Lego® junction box buried somewhere in the downtube, and the proprietary tool for plugging/unplugging wires into it.
- Winter riding with thick gloves or mittens on: The eTap paddles are enormous and so easier to find/actuate than either the Di2 or EPS alternatives.

But I also wouldn't call either of those a "performance" advantage. Those are "practical" advantages.

For this reason alone, I will some day have wireless. I keep hoping it's Campy, but..

[R3awak3n]

Respectfully ol spud, you are wrong. I’ve gone over the pluses of ETap many times on here. Until you get an ETap group, install it and ride it for a few hundred miles, I feel your comments regarding ETap hold no water. You can hate the gentleman at SRAM who did you wrong, but don’t hate something you have very little experience with. Doesn’t bode well for you. Again, respectfully.

I've only owned eTap since January, and have already noticed two advantages that have nothing to do with setup:
- for an S&S coupled travel bike, it's a no-brainer: Much easier than dealing with that Lego® junction box buried somewhere in the downtube, and the proprietary tool for plugging/unplugging wires into it.
- Winter riding with thick gloves or mittens on: The eTap paddles are enormous and so easier to find/actuate than either the Di2 or EPS alternatives.

But I also wouldn't call either of those a "performance" advantage. Those are "practical" advantages.

My experience with ETap so far has been positive. It seems to me that SRAM has put out a durable, dependable product and I'm happy to race the heck out of it this season. As a racer I think its advantages are the same as any electronic group over mechanical.

In a race situation where the chips are down and there's little headspace for groupset quirks, the biggest advantage is zero effort front shifting. Pressing a button instead of actuating a cable is something I really appreciate. It's a small thing on an everyday ride, but it's huge when racing. Same goes for rear shifting, especially on climbs where you're going around the biggest ~4 cogs regularly while at max effort. The ders just slam the chain over regardless of where you are in the pedal stroke. Not the best for drivetrain longevity, but so what when there's a win on the line.

The only cons to ETap that I've experienced so far would be that the front der is finicky to set up, but once it's set you're all good. The other is that the rear shifting is ever so slightly slower than it should be. When it's do or die in a race that kind of delay is not ideal. Like anything, you adapt your shifting style and timing and then it's no longer a significant issue. At least not enough to make me go back to Campagnolo EPS.


agree with everything here. I also own etap and I am very happy with it. I think sram made a good thing and people just can't accept it. Most have not even tried it

[peanutgallery]

Etap over Di2 is great for steel and ti bikes, especially those a few years old and not designed for internal routing. I believe aesthetics is a function, so there's that

Plumbing a carbon frame is no big deal, steel/ti has space concerns, especially around the BB. Not a fan of stuffing a BB in and praying it doesn't crimp something. Etap for those bikes

[benb]

There's plenty of room in my carbon bike for the internal wiring/cabling, it's mechanical right now but I'm highly tempted to go ETap when it needs a new group... just be totally done with the cables and never deal with routing any internal cables ever.

Very hard to say though.. that bike has a 53/39 and the front shifting is fantastic. I feel like electronic shifting is kind of like 1X. We might never have thought of it if people hadn't started running compact cranksets and saw the mechanical shift quality go downhill.

[FlashUNC]

eTap is legit. I used to be a rather vocal SRAM detractor, but its really, really good stuff. Just rode it through a rather wet and disgusting winter out here with no issues.

[Burnette]

[QUOTE=colker;2341354]It´s not nostalgia. You keep saying campagnolo survives on old guy´s nostalgia but it´s not true. It´s performance, ergonomics and design.
Campagnolo is selling hardcore racing equipment. It does not perform less than anything. It would be nostalgia if it gave you the performance of a 70s groupset.
There is a young crowd riding on more nostalgia builds than the old guys you are quoting. They don´t see it as nostalgia but all the performance they need plus style.. Cycling is a lot about style. A lot of money is spent on style and design. Campagnolo has performance and style. People will pay more for style. If they didn´t, Nike, Adidas, Apple, Swatch etc.. would never take off. I phones would never exist wasn´t for style craving masses[QUOTE]

I want you to know personally that I wouldn't change anything about your relationship with Campy. I enjoy the board and the people therein. I only wish to show you a bigger picture.

I didn't say that Campy survives only on nostalgia, I said they can't rely only on that nostalgia to sustain them at their current size. And Campy has no intention of doing that.

Not from you, but others have offered that Campy is oblivious to the market and just does what it wishes. That too is a fallacy because Campy responds to competitors advances and consumer wishes, that's where their electronic shifting, their disc brakes and their Potenza and Centaur lines all came from, a response to market forces.

Why does OEM matter? Stay with me.

Imagine a young woman in America a few years ago that was into mountain biking. She was good, fast and people noticed. She had SRAM on her mountain bike so when she went into cyclocross she went with SRAM, the shop had it and supported it and her friends rode it too. Then she went into crit racing. She would look at eTap and wonder how good it was. As she got better and had the means to do it, she got a new bike with eTap, it was already on the bike and on sale too. She raced for years, then just rode with friends, all while she had felt what she sensed as a relationship with a brand, SRAM. They were about winning, performance and an American company that took on the giant Shimano and although they didn't topple the giant, they battle it and had some victories through hard work and innovation. That's "her' brand.

My point is that nostalgia is being born every day, they key to keeping it alive is to pass it onto the next generation. That's why OEM and support are crucial for longevity. Nobody at Campy has signed on to stop participating in the market and evaporating with it's aging customer base. No, Campy is hard at work trying to gain new customers, especially at the entry level. And they are doing it to engage early on the next colker out there. He is their future and to get him they are adapting.

[weisan]

All it takes is a marriage made in heaven. Y'all worried for nuthin'!

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReWheUEy8gpXkj3_fSIY_P5F9W-fZ-vlqGpHSEVxSVhMkry1GSlQ

[Burnette]

I don't disagree with you on this and its great that they might be all like, we are italian and we gonna do things our way, and everything is great, dip some foccacia on that olive oil... but they run the risk of not being around in 20 years. Will younger people care about tradition? or hand build ergos?

the thing is, for people to care about tradition, they have to be brought up with that tradition, otherwise it will just be more expensive stuff that might be or might not be better.

Not saying it won't happen but if I was 20, I probably would not choose campy since its substantially more expensive than shimano/sram. Also not being oem they loose the new comers... thats not good because their next bike they might go back to what they know, shimano... My first bike was campy, naturally my second had campy too, and third, forth, ect... Just recently I put sram on one of my bikes and shim on other, had I never been on campy I would probably not be on it still (or maybe I would who knows)

Campy is trying to make cheaper groups but the cheaper stuff does not have what makes campy, campy. PT kind of sucks compared to UT, the centaur finish is kinda crap as well. Potenza is very nice for the most part but its not cheap like 105, its more an ultegra. I am rooting for campy because I do like what they are about, I appreciate that their stuff is still made in Europe. I don't care if they make it in Romania, its still better than being made in China (not that stuff made in China is bad but I think wages a bit more fair in Romania).

Only time will tell.

oh and as far as electric groups, both campy and shim will come out with some sort of wireless. Sram did it first and they were very smart. Its a good group.

I agree with your assessment. What we should all be happy about is that SRAM is there, pushing Shimano. Without SRAM and Campy our prices would be higher and innovation would come to market much slower.

One more thing people should ask themselves. How did SRAM grow to be as big as they are in a very mature market with two well established brands? They did it by filling a void that existed between Campy and Shimano and by innovating. Their work on electronic shifting and disc from a company of their size was a huge achievement and they are being rewarded by profits and market share.

[oldpotatoe]

Respectfully ol spud, you are wrong. I’ve gone over the pluses of ETap many times on here. Until you get an ETap group, install it and ride it for a few hundred miles, I feel your comments regarding ETap hold no water. You can hate the gentleman at SRAM who did you wrong, but don’t hate something you have very little experience with. Doesn’t bode well for you. Again, respectfully.

I get that but please tell me what performance advantage etap has over the other 2 electronic groups? Not aesthetics but shifting performance. And if you wish to mention reliability, please include the etap front der issues.

BTW, hate is a big word. I only hate my former business partner who lied to me, stole from me and another guy who is in the news.

[oldpotatoe]

I agree with your assessment. What we should all be happy about is that SRAM is there, pushing Shimano. Without SRAM and Campy our prices would be higher and innovation would come to market much slower.

One more thing people should ask themselves. How did SRAM grow to be as big as they are in a very mature market with two well established brands? They did it by filling a void that existed between Campy and Shimano and by innovating. Their work on electronic shifting and disc from a company of their size was a huge achievement and they are being rewarded by profits and market share.

You need to spend some time in either the trenches of bike shops or any OE frame maker before you heap praise on sram...

[SoCalSteve]

I get that but please tell me what performance advantage etap has over the other 2 electronic groups? Not aesthetics but shifting performance. And if you wish to mention reliability, please include the etap front der issues.

BTW, hate is a big word. I only hate my former business partner who lied to me, stole from me and another guy who is in the news.

Since I am not a racer, but have used mechanical, wired and now wireless, I can honestly say ( for the non racer ) there is very little performance difference between the three genres.

As for the front derailleur issue, beyond it being a bit finicky to set up initially, I have no idea of what you are talking about. My 4 groups work amazingly well, never an issue.

I know your feelings for SRAM are clouded by the experience you had with one gentleman there, but honestly...you may want to open your mind a bit, buy a lightly used ETap group off the classifieds here and give it a go for a few hundred miles. Then give us your opinion

And, as an aside, very few people seem to mention the blip shifters that work amazingly well and can be placed in many different spots along your bars. I love this feature and have them on the undersides, in the middle, of all my bikes.

[peanutgallery]

Gotta say, SRAM has turned it it around in the last few years, from the trenches standpoint it's a solid product. Agreed, it wasn't pretty 5 years ago. Plus, they protect how it gets into customers hands, no matter what it is, a customer cannot go on-line and get it cheaper than what it costs to your store. Big ups in today's market. If you're selling shimano, you're just laundering $ at this point and that's a no go in the trenches, plus their parts and accessories have gotten a little limp. Campy? I wish someone would want to buy it

You need to spend some time in either the trenches of bike shops or any OE frame maker before you heap praise on sram...

[colker]

I did not read the interview which originated this massive thread. There seems to be about a SRAM guy telling us his company is on a roll while campagnolo is irrelevant...
Ime someone is winning when does not waste time talking about his/her competitors.

[Jaybee]

I did not read the interview which originated this massive thread. There seems to be about a SRAM guy telling us his company is on a roll while campagnolo is irrelevant...
Ime someone is winning when does not waste time talking about his/her competitors.

Maybe you should read it. The CEO of SRAM answered a numbers based question that was asked of him. He didn't bring it up.

SRAM has about 7 times the revenue of Campy. It's just math, not something to be angry about.

[oldpotatoe]

Since I am not a racer, but have used mechanical, wired and now wireless, I can honestly say ( for the non racer ) there is very little performance difference between the three genres.

As for the front derailleur issue, beyond it being a bit finicky to set up initially, I have no idea of what you are talking about. My 4 groups work amazingly well, never an issue.

I know your feelings for SRAM are clouded by the experience you had with one gentleman there, but honestly...you may want to open your mind a bit, buy a lightly used ETap group off the classifieds here and give it a go for a few hundred miles. Then give us your opinion

And, as an aside, very few people seem to mention the blip shifters that work amazingly well and can be placed in many different spots along your bars. I love this feature and have them on the undersides, in the middle, of all my bikes.

I agree 100% and as I said, the only advantage to etap is installation. NEVER said di2/eps was superior(altho some say, due to speed and connectivity, it is)..

I’ve gone over the pluses of ETap many times on here

Pluses and minuses with all 3..

I've screwed around with etap in my former shop, Jim has lost his mind some and has sold sram..it's easy setup, no doubt..I still think the shifting protocol is a little wonky but it's easy to adapt to..

I'm a civilian, don't want to 'open my mind' any with regards to sram, sorry, isn't gong to happen. Yup, due to this D__H__ who chose to piss on me, twice, on the phone..maybe when he leaves or gets fired..:cool:

[oldpotatoe]

Gotta say, SRAM has turned it it around in the last few years, from the trenches standpoint it's a solid product. Agreed, it wasn't pretty 5 years ago. Plus, they protect how it gets into customers hands, no matter what it is, a customer cannot go on-line and get it cheaper than what it costs to your store. Big ups in today's market. If you're selling shimano, you're just laundering $ at this point and that's a no go in the trenches, plus their parts and accessories have gotten a little limp. Campy? I wish someone would want to buy it

Maybe it's different now, and I've been out of the 'trenches' since Nov 2013 but talking to other shops, most who do OE bikes and a giganto distributor..gent who was Campag inside guy, then went to sram in Chicago, then back to this giganto place in MN...their 'stories' weren't pretty with regards to sram product and product support..at the OE level.

[peanutgallery]

I haven't had to warranty nearly as much as in the past, it's rare, but I can see how OE folks can have a hangover. Few years back was bad. Done the dealer commitment at the highest level 2 years in a row, never saw that coming. Now...about that place MN:)

Maybe it's different now, and I've been out of the 'trenches' since Nov 2013 but talking to other shops, most who do OE bikes and a giganto distributor..gent who was Campag inside guy, then went to sram in Chicago, then back to this giganto place in MN...their 'stories' weren't pretty with regards to sram product and product support..at the OE level.

[Bob Ross]

How did SRAM grow to be as big as they are in a very mature market with two well established brands? They did it by filling a void that existed between Campy and Shimano and by innovating.

Except SRAM had already grown fairly large long before they offered wireless electronic shifting, 1x, hydro discs, etc. They were competitive (market-wise) when all they offered was a butt-ugly groupset with an unnecessarily clunky shifting protocol ("Double Tap") and an overall weight that was a few grams below everyone else. That's "filling a void"?!?! I don't see it.

[chiasticon]

Pro teams run what they're given, if Campagnolo chooses to spend a high percentage (vs other brands) on pro sponsorship good for them. If it were my $$ I wouldn't, but they didn't ask me.I do wonder what it costs Campy per WorldTeam to make these investments. it was said that their income for 2017 was ~3 million. I was thinking the level of investment (including equipment and cash paid to the team) would be approaching a million per team at that level. obviously I'm off there, but I'm curious what it is.

there's certainly been a decline of Sram/Quarq/Zipp investing in men's WorldTeams the last few years but they've stepped up their investment in Women's WorldTeams as well as continental and cyclocross teams. not to mention triathletes and MTB teams... I'm guessing they've crunched the numbers there to see where the better investment lies. or they've been bullied out of men's WorldTeam investments by Shimano offering more cash...

[oldpotatoe]

I do wonder what it costs Campy per WorldTeam to make these investments. it was said that their income for 2017 was ~3 million. I was thinking the level of investment (including equipment and cash paid to the team) would be approaching a million per team at that level. obviously I'm off there, but I'm curious what it is.

there's certainly been a decline of Sram/Quarq/Zipp investing in men's WorldTeams the last few years but they've stepped up their investment in Women's WorldTeams as well as continental and cyclocross teams. not to mention triathletes and MTB teams... I'm guessing they've crunched the numbers there to see where the better investment lies. or they've been bullied out of men's WorldTeam investments by Shimano offering more cash...

Or like Cannondale and BMC, they tried their stuff then 'bought' shimano equipment..:eek:

Net income considers 'advertising', as a cost before the 'net' on the balance sheet..for a mid sized team, I'd say $150,000-$200,000 or so to sponsor..I've always heard Campagnolo pays no rider or team $/Euros..

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday..REALLY evident in Europe.

[chiasticon]

There's more performance and innovation in a Movistar Canyon with Super Record EPS and Bora Ultras than a Katusha Canyon with Etap and Zipps. And more beauty. And history. And reliability.

And durability.in regards to wheels. Zipp was absolutely pushing the performance and innovation limits there, ahead of Campy and Shimano, who both are only recently deciding to make wider rims with non-V shapes. and durability...? whose wheel survived Paris Roubaix first?

obviously Zipp has had their issues with reliability and recalls. but it's difficult to argue that they haven't been a major factor in wheel innovations for the last decade or so.

[livingminimal]

I’ve become a SRAM fan. I run Shimano Di2 on my all-road/gravel/daily grinder rigs, and Campagnolo as my mechanical choice, but I have always wanted to root for SRAM as the home team and over the last couple of years their product has clearly improved. Etap isn’t perfect (frankly, I prefer di2 and yes I’ve ridden both) but in terms of quality they’ve come a hell of a long way and they’ve always had the best customer service. As Chiasticon mentioned, their investment in women’s cycling and in cross has been very important. If nothing else. They’re pushing in certain areas and it looks like Shimano is finally responding on the wirelsss front.

[simonov]

Except SRAM had already grown fairly large long before they offered wireless electronic shifting, 1x, hydro discs, etc. They were competitive (market-wise) when all they offered was a butt-ugly groupset with an unnecessarily clunky shifting protocol ("Double Tap") and an overall weight that was a few grams below everyone else. That's "filling a void"?!?! I don't see it.

The problem with threads like this is that people continue to conflate their preferences with statements of fact. Double tap is, for many people including myself and some of my teammates, far preferable to either Shimano or Campagnolo in terms of ergonomics and shift paradigm. It works very well from the hoods or the drops, particularly when things get dizzyingly hard during a race or race-like scenario.

[benb]

in regards to wheels. Zipp was absolutely pushing the performance and innovation limits there, ahead of Campy and Shimano, who both are only recently deciding to make wider rims with non-V shapes. and durability...? whose wheel survived Paris Roubaix first?

obviously Zipp has had their issues with reliability and recalls. but it's difficult to argue that they haven't been a major factor in wheel innovations for the last decade or so.

Love my Zipp handlebars, haven't bought any Zipp wheels, but there have been numerous responses in here about SRAM relying on customers to beta test their products.

This keeps making me come back to Phil Gaimon's description of Zipp wheels when he was riding for Cannondale, he has a page or two about this in "Draft Animals."

He kept referencing the Zipp wheels they were being given were not properly designed to survive running lower tire pressures that were appropriate for his weight... so he'd either crack the sidewall/bead area of the tube if he ran the correct tire pressure for his tire width/bike+rider weight combo, or he'd have a much higher chance of crashing particularly in wet weather if he used the higher tire pressure that Zipp wanted... Zipp had instructed the team mechanics to overinflate the tires above the pressure the riders wanted so the rims wouldn't crack, so he'd try and sneak off and deflate the tires before the race and set the pressure so he could perform best. Then the wheels would crack and Zipp would get mad. But several races he wasn't able to sneak off and deflate tires and he crashed out blaming the high tire pressures. Doesn't sound fun.

The cheesy "make the group a little lighter than the competition" thing has annoyed me. E.x. making Rival a little lighter than 105 by eliminating things like pressed in steel nuts on the derailleurs. Saves a few grams by threading into the cast aluminum body of the derailleur but then it strips out prematurely or leads to cable problems. IIRC Shimano doesn't even eliminate the pressed in nuts on Ultegra and maybe not on DA either. Rival shouldn't have been a group that achieved a weight target by eliminating durability features considering Rival is not a top level weight weenie group.

My X.0 rear derailleur on my MTB... the carbon pulley cage had a sweet feature that you could easily unscrew it to service the cogs. But then they used aluminum bolts to save weight that stripped out very very easily if the derailleur got mud in it. Same kind of annoying thing. A better bolt would have made the derailleur like 500mg heavier or something.

[R3awak3n]

The problem with threads like this is that people continue to conflate their preferences with statements of fact. Double tap is, for many people including myself and some of my teammates, far preferable to either Shimano or Campagnolo in terms of ergonomics and shift paradigm. It works very well from the hoods or the drops, particularly when things get dizzyingly hard during a race or race-like scenario.



with everything in this world... whats better to people is the stuff they already have...

People that have sram in this forum don't even mention it anymore since its always being attacked. Campy is king in this forum... at least for now. I do wonder the average age of people in this forum that use campy/shimano/sram.
I am betting the younger crowd here are on shim and sram...

[benb]

The problem with threads like this is that people continue to conflate their preferences with statements of fact. Double tap is, for many people including myself and some of my teammates, far preferable to either Shimano or Campagnolo in terms of ergonomics and shift paradigm. It works very well from the hoods or the drops, particularly when things get dizzyingly hard during a race or race-like scenario.

I tend to agree if you're talking 53/39 with a 12-25 or something.

I feel like doubletap (at least in the cheaper versions) breaks down as the gearing gets spread out more.

I really hate how double tap feels changing up from a 34 to a 50 on a front compact crank setup. Same thing with pie plate cassettes.

I've given double tap a pretty fair shot.. > 5000 miles at least, maybe more, both older and newer iterations.

[nmrt]

+1
I do not mention that I like SRAM simply because many here prefer Campy.
The other reason why I am only mentioning that I like SRAM for the very first time here today is also simply because I do not need to validate my liking from SRAM. I have it. Have had it on my bike for 5 years. Has given me no problems whatsoever. I will keep buying it.

Is campy "better"? I do not know and I do not wish to know. My SRAM Red works great and is a lot cheaper that Campy Record or Super Record! :banana:

with everything in this world... whats better to people is the stuff they already have...

People that have sram in this forum don't even mention it anymore since its always being attacked. Campy is king in this forum... at least for now. I do wonder the average age of people in this forum that use campy/shimano/sram.
I am betting the younger crowd here are on shim and sram...

[colker]

with everything in this world... whats better to people is the stuff they already have...

People that have sram in this forum don't even mention it anymore since its always being attacked. Campy is king in this forum... at least for now. I do wonder the average age of people in this forum that use campy/shimano/sram.
I am betting the younger crowd here are on shim and sram...

Hmm... why do i keep reading campy users are old and decrepit? Is that the line to promote sram as the better product?
Sram got better... excellent. Awhile ago it wasn´t. Most of serious, passionate cyclists have been riding since way before sram got better. It´s only natural we point out campagnolo or shimano are better.. because they were, not too long ago but if we suddenly don´t pray to sram as the messiah we are all old on our way to die.. That schtick didn´t work out 2.000 yrs ago;)

[simonov]

I tend to agree if you're talking 53/39 with a 12-25 or something.

I feel like doubletap (at least in the cheaper versions) breaks down as the gearing gets spread out more.

I really hate how double tap feels changing up from a 34 to a 50 on a front compact crank setup. Same thing with pie plate cassettes.

I've given double tap a pretty fair shot.. > 5000 miles at least, maybe more, both older and newer iterations.

My experience differs. I have a Rival22 WiFli group with a compact on an S&S bike that gets used for road and gravel. Front and rear shifting have been set it and forget it, and that's with multiple packings and unpackings and riding that can only be described as abusive.

[simonov]

with everything in this world... whats better to people is the stuff they already have...

People that have sram in this forum don't even mention it anymore since its always being attacked. Campy is king in this forum... at least for now. I do wonder the average age of people in this forum that use campy/shimano/sram.
I am betting the younger crowd here are on shim and sram...

Hmm... why do i keep reading campy users are old and decrepit? Is that the line to promote sram as the better product?
Sram got better... excellent. Awhile ago it wasn´t. Most of serious, passionate cyclists have been riding since way before sram got better. It´s only natural we point out campagnolo or shimano are better.. because they were, not too long ago but if we suddenly don´t pray to sram as the messiah we are all old on our way to die.. That schtick didn´t work out 2.000 yrs ago;)

That's a pretty big leap from "I am betting the younger crowd uses shim and sram" to "all campy users are decrepit and will die because they don't pray to SRAM the messiah." I've been riding since way before SRAM got better. Even since before SRAM had road offerings in their current format. It's not hard to recognize that they've made up ground since their early Rival and Force 10 speed groups, even for people who rode before those groups existed.

FWIW, I ride groups from all three of the big manufacturers and they all work fine. Apart from a personal preference for how you want to actuate a shift, I can't understand why anyone cares.

Now the OP intended discussion here about the place each of the manufacturers plays in the market, especially as it relates to OEM and growth strategies, is actually pretty interesting. The my group is better than your group BS is a needless distraction.

[Jaybee]

that's a pretty big leap from "i am betting the younger crowd uses shim and sram" to "all campy users are decrepit and will die because they don't pray to sram the messiah." i've been riding since way before sram got better. Even since before sram had road offerings in their current format. It's not hard to recognize that they've made up ground since their early rival and force 10 speed groups, even for people who rode before those groups existed.

Fwiw, i ride groups from all three of the big manufacturers and they all work fine. Apart from a personal preference for how you want to actuate a shift, i can't understand why anyone cares.

now the op intended discussion here about the place each of the manufacturers plays in the market, especially as it relates to oem and growth strategies, is actually pretty interesting. The my group is better than your group bs is a needless distraction.

+1

[bikinchris]

I have built up a lot of bikes as a shop mechanic with components from every company, some of which no longer exist.
Campy is great
Shimano works great
SRAM is great
I like things about each company and I don't like things about each,
On my bikes, I used to ride Record. Now I ride SRAM. I understand the people who are fans of any company. I don't understand the hate towards any company. Going out of your way to sow fear uncertainty and doubt is low.

That being said, I can't see Campy being big on OEM sales. They historically have a hard time meeting requirements and deadlines.

[colker]

That's a pretty big leap from "I am betting the younger crowd uses shim and sram" to "all campy users are decrepit and will die because they don't pray to SRAM the messiah." I've been riding since way before SRAM got better. Even since before SRAM had road offerings in their current format. It's not hard to recognize that they've made up ground since their early Rival and Force 10 speed groups, even for people who rode before those groups existed.

FWIW, I ride groups from all three of the big manufacturers and they all work fine. Apart from a personal preference for how you want to actuate a shift, I can't understand why anyone cares.

Now the OP intended discussion here about the place each of the manufacturers plays in the market, especially as it relates to OEM and growth strategies, is actually pretty interesting. The my group is better than your group BS is a needless distraction.

Campy´s tradition has been longevity. Their achilles heel was bad shifting a long time ago.. they have sorted it out. So Campy riders are proud of the longevity of their gear.
Sram´s achilles heel has been longevity. As pointed out they went all out to market weight savings and longevity was compromised. Otoh Sram embraced new technology while fixing their bugs.
Shimano owns the market it´s been a long time while their parts are always reliable although sometimes they lacked cassettes w/ the cogs you wanted. Their shifters suffered from longevity and design problems.
That´s all there is.
Categorizing riders according to brand loyalty goes nowhere.

[bfd]

IThat being said, I can't see Campy being big on OEM sales. They historically have a hard time meeting requirements and deadlines.

I think the big problem with Campy's attempt to be OEM on production bikes is location. Campy is in Italy or Romania. Just about all production bikes are made in China. Getting Campy parts to China is expensive and time consuming - therefore, harder to get.

In contrast, it is my understanding that Shimano parts are made in China, Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia. Sram parts are made in China. So getting parts to frame manufacturers like Giant is pretty easy.

Bottom line, unless a line of frames is made in Italy or anywhere else in Europe, i.e., higher end Bianchis, it will be almost impossible for Campy to ever be OEM on production bikes.

Now, if Campy ever decides to make its parts in Asia or comes out with its Chinese-made Fulcrum line of parts (all of can remember are wheels and cranks), then it might be able to do it. Otherwise, Good Luck!

[simonov]

Campy´s tradition has been longevity. Their achilles heel was bad shifting a long time ago.. they have sorted it out. So Campy riders are proud of the longevity of their gear.
Sram´s achilles heel has been longevity. As pointed out they went all out to market weight savings and longevity was compromised. Otoh Sram embraced new technology while fixing their bugs.
Shimano owns the market it´s been a long time while their parts are always reliable although sometimes they lacked cassettes w/ the cogs you wanted. Their shifters suffered from longevity and design problems.
That´s all there is.
Categorizing riders according to brand loyalty goes nowhere.

I have 35K miles on a Force 22 group. I've done nothing but clean out and relube the ratcheting and pivoting parts and swap out cables. I think longevity is fine for SRAM at this point. They also sorted out their shifting issues, so maybe it's time for people to move on.

And I'm not categorizing riders according to brand loyalty. I think categorizing people is silly.

[R3awak3n]

you are crazy to not think that there is no brand loyalty in cycling. Its all there is a freaking brand loyalty. People like what they are used to. Not just in cycling. A lot of guys here using campy have not tried sram or shimano (specially sram). Some have gone and said stuff without ever even having used the stuff. I think the best people to speak on durability at this moment are mechanics who see bikes in and out (specially shim and sram, campy I bet they don't see a lot and its not because they never break)

[chiasticon]

People that have sram in this forum don't even mention it anymore since its always being attacked.this. it's the immediate butt of every joke on this forum. for now.

FWIW, I ride groups from all three of the big manufacturers and they all work fine. Apart from a personal preference for how you want to actuate a shift, I can't understand why anyone cares.same. they all work great. I don't see the big deal.

Now the OP intended discussion here about the place each of the manufacturers plays in the market, especially as it relates to OEM and growth strategies, is actually pretty interesting. The my group is better than your group BS is a needless distraction.agreed on both counts. most of this thread has been discussing market-share of both brands and what their future may hold; and that's been interesting. the issue is that some of the arguments are coming from a place of emotion and not analytical thinking, and that's not what makes the discussion interesting. that topic's been done to death and is boring.

[simonov]

you are crazy to not think that there is no brand loyalty in cycling. Its all there is a freaking brand loyalty. People like what they are used to. Not just in cycling. A lot of guys here using campy have not tried sram or shimano (specially sram). Some have gone and said stuff without ever even having used the stuff. I think the best people to speak on durability at this moment are mechanics who see bikes in and out (specially shim and sram, campy I bet they don't see a lot and its not because they never break)

Not sure if you're responding to me, but, if you were, I've been called worse than crazy. I actually completely agree with you. There is excessive, effusive, sometimes ignorant brand loyalty. I'm just saying that preferences aside and loyalty aside, all the companies make some good gear (and some duds).

[zap]

edit


My SRAM Red works great and is a lot cheaper that Campy Record or Super Record! :banana:

If one factors in resale valuations, SRAM Red is more expensive. That may change in the future.

[cadence90]

agreed on both counts. most of this thread has been discussing market-share of both brands and what their future may hold; and that's been interesting. the issue is that some of the arguments are coming from a place of emotion and not analytical thinking, and that's not what makes the discussion interesting. that topic's been done to death and is boring.

That, as well the pretty tedious and repetitive posts by those who write as if they are inner-circle top-manager board members of one or more of the companies being discussed, with absolute knowledge of all future plans, etc.

Which we know they most certainly are not.

Because they are posting here.
.

[R3awak3n]

Not sure if you're responding to me, but, if you were, I've been called worse than crazy. I actually completely agree with you. There is excessive, effusive, sometimes ignorant brand loyalty. I'm just saying that preferences aside and loyalty aside, all the companies make some good gear (and some duds).

was replying to colker.

I agree with everything you have said :)

[David Tollefson]

MicroSHIFT.

[simonov]

was replying to colker.

I agree with everything you have said :)

Gotcha. But I still may be crazy!

[R3awak3n]

Gotcha. But I still may be crazy!

aren't we all?

[Burnette]

Except SRAM had already grown fairly large long before they offered wireless electronic shifting, 1x, hydro discs, etc. They were competitive (market-wise) when all they offered was a butt-ugly groupset with an unnecessarily clunky shifting protocol ("Double Tap") and an overall weight that was a few grams below everyone else. That's "filling a void"?!?! I don't see it.

Hey Bob, I was talking about a longer time line and not just latest advancements. There was a Campagnolo and a Shimano long before there ever was a SRAM. My question roughly was how did SRAM manage to grow in between a big powerhouse (Shimano) and an established brand with a storied history (Campy)?

SRAM did it by filling a void. The void between Campy and Shimano was a brand that was involved in the road and mountain bike market and was also competitive on price. On the road side you can give much of the credit to it's Rival and Force lines. The fact that SRAM Red, after issues, did well too on the high end is no small feat either.

To stay there SRAM has indeed been innovative and you could say daring in their strategy and execution of it. So yes, sure, at the end of the story sits eTap. But the work and effort to get there is the story and it could of never happened if there wasn't an opening between the two long standing brands.

[Burnette]

I think the big problem with Campy's attempt to be OEM on production bikes is location. Campy is in Italy or Romania. Just about all production bikes are made in China. Getting Campy parts to China is expensive and time consuming - therefore, harder to get.

In contrast, it is my understanding that Shimano parts are made in China, Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia. Sram parts are made in China. So getting parts to frame manufacturers like Giant is pretty easy.

Bottom line, unless a line of frames is made in Italy or anywhere else in Europe, i.e., higher end Bianchis, it will be almost impossible for Campy to ever be OEM on production bikes.

Now, if Campy ever decides to make its parts in Asia or comes out with its Chinese-made Fulcrum line of parts (all of can remember are wheels and cranks), then it might be able to do it. Otherwise, Good Luck!

You are so right. There is an article about just what you posted. Campy is locked into the European Union (EU) and it's harsh penalties for working outside of it's parameters and also Campagnolo has stated that they fear losing intellectual property too if they move some production to Asia.

And as you state, a higher price in the entry level lines is a non starter for OEM buyers. And not being close to OEM markets incurs additional shipping costs.

[kevinvc]

I've used SRAM and Shimano on mountain bikes with both hydro and mechanical disc brakes. I honestly don't have any preference between them whatsoever. I do basic maintenance but no major setups or repairs, so I can't speak to that aspect. If I were to get another bike with trigger shifters, the manufacturer of the groupset would be entirely irrelevant.

I've used SRAM and Shimano on road bikes. I much prefer the shifting function of Shimano over the double-tap. I also personally feel like my Shimano shifts more smoothly and requires fewer derailleur adjustments (both front and back). I've never tried Campy and don't have any reason to go out of my way to either get it or avoid it. If a bike came into my life with it, I'd be happy to try it out.

When I bought a Fargo a couple of years ago it came with SRAM. It works fine. When it needs replacement, I'll probably get Shimano.

I've never tried electronic shifting of any brand. I like the simplicity of a cabled system and am not willing to spend the extra money to see if electronic is worth it. If was given a group I'd try it, but don't have any desire for it.

In general, I tend not to form strong brand allegiances for consumer goods. I'll wear Levis, Wranglers or whatever fits at an affordable price. I've even go so far as to wear Adidas shoes with Nike socks at the same time. :eek:

[Burnette]

this. it's the immediate butt of every joke on this forum. for now.

same. they all work great. I don't see the big deal.

agreed on both counts. most of this thread has been discussing market-share of both brands and what their future may hold; and that's been interesting. the issue is that some of the arguments are coming from a place of emotion and not analytical thinking, and that's not what makes the discussion interesting. that topic's been done to death and is boring.

When it comes to bicycle components IMO it comes down to price and preference of how each operates. What's already on the bike and what's on sale goes along way to saying what is going to sell the most.

And I agree, emotion and passion are great but not at the expense of reality. You have some who didn't read the article, some who hold a grudge against the brand so by default it must be worse than Campy and then there are those who have no clue how Campy and the rest of these companies operate.

There was some snark about not knowing what these companies think by a few but you don't have to be on a board to read general company public releases about their plans for entry level groups, why they are moving labor to another country or how they are working to get OEM sales. It's public communications from the companies themselves. And even when you link what the company it's self it's not processed because it doesn't match the nostalgic notion they hold. Passion has it's place but it can blinding.

SRAM's story is an interesting one, they not only made a place for themselves, they pushed the envelope and continue to grow.

And again, we are all better for it. More competition equals better prices and faster innovation. I'm not counting Campy out and yes, you can read where they are working to grow themselves. It will be tough, but if SRAM can figure it out, Campy should be able to find a way.

[CSKeller]

When it comes to bicycle components IMO it comes down to price and preference of how each operates. What's already on the bike and what's on sale goes along way to saying what is going to sell the most.

And I agree, emotion and passion are great but not at the expense of reality. You have some who didn't read the article, some who hold a grudge against the brand so by default it must be worse than Campy and then there are those who have no clue how Campy and the rest of these companies operate.

There was some snark about not knowing what these companies think by a few but you don't have to be on a board to read general company public releases about their plans for entry level groups, why they are moving labor to another country or how they are working to get OEM sales. It's public communications from the companies themselves. And even when you link what the company it's self it's not processed because it doesn't match the nostalgic notion they hold. Passion has it's place but it can blinding.

SRAM's story is an interesting one, they not only made a place for themselves, they pushed the envelope and continue to grow.

And again, we are all better for it. More competition equals better prices and faster innovation. I'm not counting Campy out and yes, you can read where they are working to grow themselves. It will be tough, but if SRAM can figure it out, Campy should be able to find a way.Well said!!!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Black Dog]

That, as well the pretty tedious and repetitive posts by those who write as if they are inner-circle top-manager board members of one or more of the companies being discussed, with absolute knowledge of all future plans, etc.

Which we know they most certainly are not.

Because they are posting here.
.

There is a modicum of truth in this post.

[Burnette]

Hanging around cycling boards I read about more and more people riding gravel roads. In response to that, cyclocross and the pro's cobble stone spring Classics, Shimano has developed their clutch equipped rear derailleur, much like they had for their mtb kit.

* From the article:

"When the lever is flipped to the ‘on’ position, a cam tightens a steel friction band around the derailleur’s main pivot. This keeps the chain taut by reducing unwanted movement of the derailleur cage when riding over rough terrain — be it rocks and roots on singletrack, or cobbled or gravel roads".

The parts that made me think about this thread was first, this one where Trek works hand in hand with Shimano:

"Trek-Segafredo technical director Matt Shriver said he had been asking Shimano for a road clutch derailleur for two years, even inquiring about hacking an XTR derailleur to work with the team's Dura-Ace Di2 drivetrains."

And then this part, where SRAM got the jump on Shimano on this way back in 2014:

"Speaking of Force 1, SRAM certainly got a sizable jump on Shimano with a road clutch derailleur, rolling out its Force 1 group for cyclocross in early 2014, and quickly moving that into road applications with bike-brand partners. The notable difference, of course, is that Shimano's Ultegra RX derailleur works with two chainrings, whereas SRAM's system is for a single chainring only."

This article is from yesterday and illustrates what we've been saying in this thread about the OEM angle with the Trek/Shimano relationship and how SRAM, through innovation, has caused Shimano to respond in kind. SRAM can't topple the giant, but they can make it move.



* https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/shimano-ultegra-rx-road-clutch-rear-derailleur-mechanical-and-di2-52018/

[jtbadge]

"Speaking of Force 1, SRAM certainly got a sizable jump on Shimano with a road clutch derailleur, rolling out its Force 1 group for cyclocross in early 2014, and quickly moving that into road applications with bike-brand partners. The notable difference, of course, is that Shimano's Ultegra RX derailleur works with two chainrings, whereas SRAM's system is for a single chainring only."

This article is from yesterday and illustrates what we've been saying in this thread about the OEM angle with the Trek/Shimano relationship and how SRAM, through innovation, has caused Shimano to respond in kind. SRAM can't topple the giant, but they can make it move.



* https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/shimano-ultegra-rx-road-clutch-rear-derailleur-mechanical-and-di2-52018/


I dunno, you can always use a 10s SRAM clutch RD with 2x 11s road shifters/cassette. Not exactly a huge advantage outside of a few grams and an integrated barrel adjuster.

That said, I want the new RX clutch RD.

[livingminimal]

I dunno, you can always use a 10s SRAM clutch RD with 2x 11s road shifters/cassette. Not exactly a huge advantage outside of a few grams and an integrated barrel adjuster.

That said, I want the new RX clutch RD.


Same. I am building a new all-road rig next week with big clearance and I already purchased the medium cage ultegra di2 RD. Ah well, gonna have to switch it out when the new one comes.

[MaraudingWalrus]

MicroSHIFT.

Honestly, Arsis 11 works great. Rotor UNO works amazing - just slow to roll out.

I'd ride the hell out of an Arsis 11 group.

[oldpotatoe]

I dunno, you can always use a 10s SRAM clutch RD with 2x 11s road shifters/cassette. Not exactly a huge advantage outside of a few grams and an integrated barrel adjuster.

That said, I want the new RX clutch RD.

Yup, why wouldn’t sram make the clutch rear der 2by compatible? Oh, I know.:)

[jtbadge]

Yup, why wouldn’t sram make the clutch rear der 2by compatible? Oh, I know.:)

That’s what I was saying, they DO make 2x clutch rear derailleurs.

Are you trying to make a joke about their old front derailleurs being bad?

[oldpotatoe]

That’s what I was saying, they DO make 2x clutch rear derailleurs.

Are you trying to make a joke about their old front derailleurs being bad?

But when they sell a 1by group with a clutch rear der it’s the 1by only rear der. Why not design that rear der as compatible with both? Was my question. No jokes about front ders but once I asked a shimano guy at interbike about some ‘gadget’ or another, I asked him what it was for, “for selling” was the response: they do it cuz they can..to sell more rear ders.

[93KgBike]

This is quite a thread!

In the time that I spent (long ago) wrenching in a shop, I observed that the women and men riding on Campagnolo expected me to be able to repair their derailleurs and combination shifter/brake levers, and that I could, generally. While those on Shimano had the same expectation, and were uniformly displeased to learn that we could not.

I think SRAM has followed Shimano more than Campagnolo.