High Cadence...

[benb]

I think I've been chasing high cadence for years and it's not appropriate for me. There has been so much hype about it ever since Lance Armstrong was riding with a higher cadence than Jan Ulrich, I've always internalized it, and high cadences come pretty naturally for me.

I need to do more experimentation and train some with a lower cadence but AFAICT the power meter + HRM is not lying.

I'm typically trying to ride like 90-95rpm when doing hard intervals. Since I got the PM I'd noticed that I'll make more power more easily reducing the cadence a bit, but I wasn't actually trying to ride at the lower cadence. Recently I have.

It looks like 80-85rpm I'll make the same power and have a heart rate ~10bpm lower. My perceived exertion is quite a bit lower too, and I seem to be able to keep my power up better when the road turns down. 10bpm feels quite significant if true if I'm talking bout heart rates up near my threshold.

Still gotta experiment more. I'm not sure the lower cadence works on flats if I'm pushing really hard and trying to get down in the drops and be really low. That seems to cause my back to cramp, but who knows, that might go away with practice.

[David Tollefson]

You need to boost your aerobic capacity to deal with the high cadence riding. I suggest a medically-supervised program of EPO...

[Mark McM]

You mention increasing cadence for hard intervals - but how long are these hard intervals? The best cadence for a 20 second interval is likely quite a bit higher than for a 20 minute interval. My best cadence for all-out sprint efforts is about 110-120 rpm, but for 2x20 intervals (2 intervals at 20 minutes each) I'm down around 90 - 95 rpm.

Like everything else, context is everything.

[benb]

Yah I'm talking about stuff in that 15-20 minute range.

E.x. if I was doing an FTP test. I think I need to test my FTP at a lower cadence.

If I'm trying to do a short interval above my threshold I think the high cadence might be better. Also the high cadence might be better on flat, who knows.

No doubt the lower cadence seems to make it harder to accelerate if you're riding with someone else and the pace goes up too.

But I've generally always been trying to keep my average cadence > 90 the entire time throughout multi-hour rides, or riding up long hills/mountains, etc.. and I'm not sure I should continue to try and do that.

E.x. if I'm going to go out and ride for 4 hours and I'm actually not riding super hard most of the time, I'm concerned the higher cadence is just a waste. Maybe I could be going faster/more power at the same/lower HR if I change my behavior.

[unterhausen]

I suppose you didn't internalize the fact that high cadence utilizes the advantages of EPO better than low cadence, and that's why Armstrong and other riders did it. Absent that part of his training regimen, I would say that 90rpm is about as high of a cadence that is usable for most riders. Except maybe in a sprint.

I spent the winter on the trainer increasing my cadence. It requires training. It does have advantages, less muscle fatigue being a big one. Also, climbing a hill at low cadence uses up glycogen stores faster. But I will never have an average cadence as high as Armstrong.

[benb]

I've always been totally aware of the fact that basically every training/physiology thing that was said about LA was total bunk and was just a smokescreen for his doping.

I just never really adjusted my behavior when riding.

I can't say this was really cause of reading/hearing about LA either. It seems nearly universally you just hear books/coaches/whatever constantly singing the praises of higher cadence. That might just be directed at beginners how might think they should pedal 50rpm though.

As an aside Froome is also one of these super high average cadence riders too. I am just as skeptical about it with him.:cool:

[ceolwulf]

There's a British time trialling forum I used to read quite a bit and some of those guys use very low cadences for their 10 and 20 mile TTs. I remember one guy had a 67 tooth or thereabouts chainring, looked crazy. But he said he was cranking around 60 rpm. Worked best for him, he said.

For me the best region for that length of effort seems around 90ish rpm, I can put a bit more power if I go lower cadence but the issue becomes muscle fatigue.

It's well worth experimenting with anyway. The conventional wisdom is probably true more often than not but is not a dogma.

[ultraman6970]

High cadence is not easy, specially for a long periods of time.

The reason LA went high cadence was because he lost way too much muscle after the cancer, no power in him at all.

Im old school... fix gear with like 42x21 just to start, if you find that extremely heavy then you have another problem, tremendous lack of power. It will hurt, a lot.

[ptourkin]

High cadence is not easy, specially for a long periods of time.

The reason LA went high cadence was because he lost way too much muscle after the cancer, no power in him at all.

Im old school... fix gear with like 42x21 just to start, if you find that extremely heavy then you have another problem, tremendous lack of power. It will hurt, a lot.

Power = torque x cadence. Someone with the ability to create the same power with a smaller gear due to superior aerobic/cardio fitness would say you are the one with a problem.

For different intervals of time, different physical systems are more efficient. While muscling it out may work for some shorter period, using your aerobic system is more sustainable, although based on the current century threads, many of us tap out after a two hour ride.

[Peter P.]

Cadence is a very individual thing. Trying to emulate successful Rider X is only wise if you're a total newb and have no clue what cadence is. Then at least you'll learn, which is better than nothing.

What HAS been proven throughout the ages is, an EFFICIENT cadence on the flats is anywhere from roughly 80-100rpm. Besides individual variations, your cadence will vary with terrain-usually slowing up hills, wind, and situation.

Generally, we'll ride a higher cadence in a group or paceline than in an individual time trial. Higher cadences lend themselves to better modulation of speed when following a wheel or controlling the gap to wheels you're following.

[steelbikerider]

Cadence can also vary according to the situation. Back in the day(racer - 30 years ago) my cadence was around 90 -95 solo and 95 - 100 when in pacelines,
climbing was and still is around 75 - 85, My solo cadence has slowed down some due to age(59) is down to around 80 - 90 now but in a paceline, muscle memory kicks in and it stays around 95. The racers I train have a cadence around 95, Higher during intervals.

FWIW, almost every hour record set on the velodrome was set using a cadence of between 105 and 110.

[Mark McM]

High cadence is not easy, specially for a long periods of time.

The reason LA went high cadence was because he lost way too much muscle after the cancer, no power in him at all.

Im old school... fix gear with like 42x21 just to start, if you find that extremely heavy then you have another problem, tremendous lack of power. It will hurt, a lot.

I find it hard to believe that any muscle Armstrong lost during his cancer treatment in '97 couldn't have been gained back during the next few years (when apparently he was healthy and fit enough to win the TdF).

I'm of the school that "He who is most disciplined is most free." I think it is good to spend a little bit of time practicing using higher cadences. That doesn't mean you have to ride high cadences everywhere all the time, but if you have the ability to ride high cadences, you have a wider range of cadences to select from to match different situations.

[benb]

The reason LA went high cadence was because he lost way too much muscle after the cancer, no power in him at all.


That's just as bunk as the stuff about him having unusual heart/lungs/whatever.

He was taking steroid & hgh & cortisone the muscle and stuff so he clearly had no problem putting the muscle back on. He was ripped beyond belief. Look at pictures of him TTing vs a picture of Froome!

I do suspect the comeback from cancer gave him incredible discipline etc.. and gave him a drive and motivation that became a huge advantage.

You never heard about him doing Ecstasy in a club and getting fat like Ulrich over the winter. He might have been doped to the gills but he was working super hard and leaving no stone unturned for any advantage. If "Marginal Gains" had been a buzzword back then he would have been the king of it consider all the stage pre-riding he did, all the work with Trek on equipment. (Remember he had a custom aero helmet designed to work with the shape of his back?)

[John H.]

Is this cadence on flats or climbs?
90-95 is pretty average on flats- not really high or low.
80-85 (especially 80) is somewhat low on flats.

Like you said, pay attention to your powermeter. Also pays attention to whether the 80 rpms loads up your legs and causes fatigue later on.

There is no ideal cadence, but low cadence can overload the muscles, also can make a slow legged rider who can't respond to pace changes.

And as others mentioned, some of the crazy high cadences that guys use for a TT in pro tour races is enhanced- It takes some pretty special blood to hold 120 rpms for an hour.

I think I've been chasing high cadence for years and it's not appropriate for me. There has been so much hype about it ever since Lance Armstrong was riding with a higher cadence than Jan Ulrich, I've always internalized it, and high cadences come pretty naturally for me.

I need to do more experimentation and train some with a lower cadence but AFAICT the power meter + HRM is not lying.

I'm typically trying to ride like 90-95rpm when doing hard intervals. Since I got the PM I'd noticed that I'll make more power more easily reducing the cadence a bit, but I wasn't actually trying to ride at the lower cadence. Recently I have.

It looks like 80-85rpm I'll make the same power and have a heart rate ~10bpm lower. My perceived exertion is quite a bit lower too, and I seem to be able to keep my power up better when the road turns down. 10bpm feels quite significant if true if I'm talking bout heart rates up near my threshold.

Still gotta experiment more. I'm not sure the lower cadence works on flats if I'm pushing really hard and trying to get down in the drops and be really low. That seems to cause my back to cramp, but who knows, that might go away with practice.

[teleguy57]

I need to experiment more. Have traditionally been an 85ish cadence guy, but when I put on a PowerPod last year I noticed that my power often bumped up when I downshifted and spun up more. I may have been confusing the feelings of muscling through as delivering more power.

I do find that my HR goes up more at higher cadences so still have a lot to sort out about what really works for me. Some days I think I'm better off just riding more and thinking less!

[Clean39T]

Cadence w/o power gets you nowhere.

Get the power up by whatever means necessary, then work on being comfortable putting it out at as wide a cadence range as possible.

Peeps have gotten overly scared of using harder gears in training.

A couple weeks ago I did a 700ft climb over 2.5mi (5-10% grades) in my 50/23 and it was a great strength and muscle-recruitment workout. I’ll be working that into my rotation of HTFU rides going forward...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/0322a698b6526f57ef4953f2a05ebc4c.jpg

*** I hate posting stuff like this because it could come off as bragging. I’m not fast or strong, just a solid mid-pack enthusiast, sharing my experience to maybe benefit others’.

[1centaur]

Heart and legs are a team. Use more of one and you use less of the other, at a given wattage. Pro cyclists have rare aerobic talents vs. the population, even before getting to EPO. Those with more average talents should experiment and find their comfort zone rather than beat themselves up for not spinning like a pro.

This was brought home to me when I took a fairly novice cyclist up a shortish 7% hill. He hit that grade and tried to keep his cadence up because that's what he heard people should do. He blew up in a hundred yards and stopped. I rolled back to him and told him to go up in a way that feels good to him and forget cadence. He has very strong legs. He climbed to the top at a decent pace using those legs and without suffering that much aerobically.

The takeaway is to explore the range of possibilities offered by your heart and your legs, don't get in a rut of slow-cadence if your heart has plenty of unused capacity, and believe what your body is telling you.

[Drmojo]

cadence always changing
murder on the uphill
suicide on the downhill
getting back on a gearly bike feels like cheating after riding fixed for a few months
but not everyone’s cup of tea
find yr best gear ratio/inches for the terrain
we are all different in that regard:bike:

[BdaGhisallo]

I do suspect the comeback from cancer gave him incredible discipline etc.. and gave him a drive and motivation that became a huge advantage.



I completely concur. Obviously the drugs helped and leveled the field with the other big riders who were doing the same but his discipline and absolute dedication were what gave him his greatest advantage. He simply wanted it more than anyone else and was prepared to do anything and sacrifice anything to get it.

[Bob Ross]

generally, we'll ride a higher cadence in a group or paceline than in an individual time trial. higher cadences lend themselves to better modulation of speed when following a wheel or controlling the gap to wheels you're following.

qft!

[carpediemracing]

Higher cadences load the aerobic system. It's ideal for someone that's blood boosting or using EPO or similar, because you can transfer a lot of load to the enhanced aerobic system. Another advantage is that if you rev a bit high, you literally catch your breath and you've recovered. There isn't as much muscular fatigue associated with spinning, unless you're not very fit and simply pedaling fast fatigues your legs.

Lower cadences stress the muscles and lead to muscular fatigue which is hard to recover from during a ride. This is why most riders start off spinning. It saves the legs for later.

Even Carmichael says that over 120 rpm is inefficient. There's some cost to pedaling fast. Over the years I've tried to hit 300 rpm because Scott Berryman would do 5 seconds at 300 rpm at very low resistance. The closest I got was 286 rpm, and nowadays I'd be hard pressed to hit 250 rpm. However, spinning that fast all by itself is incredibly hard. I did a few attempts one time (245-250 rpm) and couldn't walk right for a few days.

In sprints I'm best at about 110-120 rpm, with best ever max speeds 20 years ago at 125-130 rpm.

If I'm fresh I can hold 95-100 rpm if I'm not going too hard.

Once I blow up I'm at 80 rpm or so.