hhmmm...Wiggle

[fignon's barber]

I had a Wiggle advert in my inbox this morning so I clicked over, as I hadn't been there in awhile. The first 3 brands I clicked on are no longer shipped to the US: Assos, Kask, Castelli. Unsubscribed Wiggle.

[AngryScientist]

things are a-changin for the worse for us, the US consumer of euro products. don't know what's up - but the deals of the past are not as easily found on european based stuff.

been to Ribble lately? they basically have zero campy stuff on their site anymore....

they used to be the absolute go-to place for campy gear and wheels. not anymore.

[oldpotatoe]

things are a-changin for the worse for us, the US consumer of euro products. don't know what's up - but the deals of the past are not as easily found on european based stuff.

been to Ribble lately? they basically have zero campy stuff on their site anymore....

they used to be the absolute go-to place for campy gear and wheels. not anymore.

I suspect, as has been rumored, that distribution to consumers will be more regional..as in..want to buy some assos bibs? live in UK? Buy from UK reseller, type thing. PLUS some expiration of trade deals in Europe or the UK with manufacturers..Manufacturers tightening up their distribution.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I wonder what role Brexit plays in this and if maybe our allegiances should shift to the German sites like Bike 24.

[mtechnica]

Yeah this is why I bought a bunch of stuff during the winter sale. Prices will probably go back to what they were like when I started riding 10-15 years back.

[m_sasso]

I would blame Donald!
:no:

[tigoat]

Add SRAM, Zipp.....to that banned list as well. Take a look at Chain Reaction, they are more expensive than anyone else in the world nowadays.

[OtayBW]

^^ Oh geez - here we go...:bike:

[Mikej]

Let the gouging begin!

[pdonk]

Welcome to the Canadian reality.

Sites like Chain reaction (my old go to) have different prices for different parts of the world when you convert all to a single currency shipped to the same place.

[oldpotatoe]

Let the gouging begin!

Funny, how 'some' have been so 'low price' indoctrinated, so that more normal 'margins', either via a manufacturer direct or via a distributor, becomes 'gouging'. Gouging implies somebody is taking a YUGE margin, but in reality, a lot of this 'alternative' bike stuff channels are being closed, some who rely 100% on volume. I get a little testy when 'some' imply when a LBS, for example, put a price on some bike widget, that's lots higher than some 'neverknownbeforetoday' web site..then automatically the LBS must be 'gouging' the customer. Not how it works, in most cases. 'Most' decent bike shops pay a price for that bike widget, divide by .65 or so(35 point margin, NOT 'markup')..to get to their price. 35 point margin is recognized as the "MINIMUM" required to keep the lights on..have ZERO net profit at the end of the year and no more debt.

[Shoeman]

Funny, how 'some' have been so 'low price' indoctrinated, so that more normal 'margins', either via a manufacturer direct or via a distributor, becomes 'gouging'. Gouging implies somebody is taking a YUGE margin, but in reality, a lot of this 'alternative' bike stuff channels are being closed, some who rely 100% on volume. I get a little testy when 'some' imply when a LBS, for example, put a price on some bike widget, that's lots higher than some 'neverknownbeforetoday' web site..then automatically the LBS must be 'gouging' the customer. Not how it works, in most cases. 'Most' decent bike shops pay a price for that bike widget, divide by .65 or so(35 point margin, NOT 'markup')..to get to their price. 35 point margin is recognized as the "MINIMUM" required to keep the lights on..have ZERO net profit at the end of the year and no more debt.

Well Said!!!!!

[PaMtbRider]

things are a-changin for the worse for us, the US consumer of euro products. don't know what's up - but the deals of the past are not as easily found on european based stuff.

been to Ribble lately? they basically have zero campy stuff on their site anymore....

they used to be the absolute go-to place for campy gear and wheels. not anymore.

The Campy stuff has dried up, but wholly crap you can buy an Ultegra 8000 group for $665 Makes me rethink the Chorus group I was considering.

[oldpotatoe]

The Campy stuff has dried up, but wholly crap you can buy an Ultegra 8000 group for $665 Makes me rethink the Chorus group I was considering.

Get Potenza😍....

[adub]

Price fixing is alive and well.

[huck*this]

I actually just found the opposite. For example Isadore now has a state side distributor. Received my jersey in 2 days with free shipping and Lightweight. Also has a state side rep. Received items same time 2 days with free shipping.

These items before were hard to get in a timely fashion never mind the exorbitant shipping charge.

[Mikej]

Funny, how 'some' have been so 'low price' indoctrinated, so that more normal 'margins', either via a manufacturer direct or via a distributor, becomes 'gouging'. Gouging implies somebody is taking a YUGE margin, but in reality, a lot of this 'alternative' bike stuff channels are being closed, some who rely 100% on volume. I get a little testy when 'some' imply when a LBS, for example, put a price on some bike widget, that's lots higher than some 'neverknownbeforetoday' web site..then automatically the LBS must be 'gouging' the customer. Not how it works, in most cases. 'Most' decent bike shops pay a price for that bike widget, divide by .65 or so(35 point margin, NOT 'markup')..to get to their price. 35 point margin is recognized as the "MINIMUM" required to keep the lights on..have ZERO net profit at the end of the year and no more debt.

Lbs still charges way too much for me to walk in and buy a 91$ 11s chain when I can 2nd day air 2 of them no tax for 20$ less. We will still get our deals. Funny thing is, if I can’t I just won’t buy as much. Out of curiosity, do all businesses make 35% margin? No, I don’t think so, the lbs is really just a bad business model, most of the US is bad weather for biking 50% of the year, bike shops need to think about that.

[Mark McM]

Funny, how 'some' have been so 'low price' indoctrinated, so that more normal 'margins', either via a manufacturer direct or via a distributor, becomes 'gouging'. Gouging implies somebody is taking a YUGE margin, but in reality, a lot of this 'alternative' bike stuff channels are being closed, some who rely 100% on volume. I get a little testy when 'some' imply when a LBS, for example, put a price on some bike widget, that's lots higher than some 'neverknownbeforetoday' web site..then automatically the LBS must be 'gouging' the customer. Not how it works, in most cases. 'Most' decent bike shops pay a price for that bike widget, divide by .65 or so(35 point margin, NOT 'markup')..to get to their price. 35 point margin is recognized as the "MINIMUM" required to keep the lights on..have ZERO net profit at the end of the year and no more debt.

Yeah but ...

Gouging can only occur for goods or services that are necessities, and not for luxury items. For example, the diamond (as in jewelry) industry is dominated by just a few big companies, and they use their near-monopoly to demand huge markups. But because diamonds are purely a luxury item, it isn't a case of gouging. Since high-end bicycle components are not really a necessity, you can't really gouge on the prices of them at all.

[fignon's barber]

Yeah but ...

Gouging can only occur for goods or services that are necessities, and not for luxury items. For example, the diamond (as in jewelry) industry is dominated by just a few big companies, and they use their near-monopoly to demand huge markups. But because diamonds are purely a luxury item, it isn't a case of gouging. Since high-end bicycle components are not really a necessity, you can't really gouge on the prices of them at all.


That's not true.
By definition, price gouging is a term referring to when a seller spikes the prices of any goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair, and is considered exploitative, potentially to an unethical extent.

[Mark McM]

That's not true.
By definition, price gouging is a term referring to when a seller spikes the prices of any goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair, and is considered exploitative, potentially to an unethical extent.

You just described the pricing model of many luxury goods. In many cases, luxury items are priced far higher than would (rationally) be considered reasonable and fair, simply for reasons of exclusivity.

[oldpotatoe]

Lbs still charges way too much for me to walk in and buy a 91$ 11s chain when I can 2nd day air 2 of them no tax for 20$ less. We will still get our deals. Funny thing is, if I can’t I just won’t buy as much. Out of curiosity, do all businesses make 35% margin? No, I don’t think so, the lbs is really just a bad business model, most of the US is bad weather for biking 50% of the year, bike shops need to think about that.

If the lbs sells you that chain for $71, they are losing money. Just selling for a few $ more than they paid doesn’t mesn they can pay their fixed expenses(what margin pays for). Most retail may be a ‘bad business model’ but it’s not absolute. My shop was in ski country USA, and we did fine with just bikes and bike stuff.

‘Most bad for biking 50% of the year? Not exactly...even Minnesota isn’t clobbered 50% of the year.

Other business’ use different margins. Skiing and jewelry, as examples, operate at much much higher margins.

But what I said is still true, the lbs isn’t ‘gouging’ you when he sells the chain for $91, when it probably cost him $60 or so.

[shinomaster]

Get Potenza😍....

There is no way Potenza is better than the new ultegra?

[dustyrider]

I picked up a da9100 group from jensonusa for ribble da9000 prices(when they were shipping to the USA) pretty recently...not sure retail pricing is ever worth it unless you need it today.

[John H.]

The market is slowly correcting itself.

The market was not correct when prices were silly low from the UK- It was a combo of loss leaders, OE over-purchases, and grey market goods.

Companies have been working hard to close these loops-

It may not be the best thing for the internet purchasing bike consumer- But it is not a bad thing.

[glepore]

In part, the manufacturers are driving this to protect their domestic sellers from currency shifts among othetr things ... like tarrifs etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pdmtong]

Soooo...this explains the rise in campagnolo wheel prices the past 18 months?

Bora One, Shamal Mille/Ultra...ouch.

[Mikej]

If the lbs sells you that chain for $71, they are losing money. Just selling for a few $ more than they paid doesn’t mesn they can pay their fixed expenses(what margin pays for). Most retail may be a ‘bad business model’ but it’s not absolute. My shop was in ski country USA, and we did fine with just bikes and bike stuff.

‘Most bad for biking 50% of the year? Not exactly...even Minnesota isn’t clobbered 50% of the year.

Other business’ use different margins. Skiing and jewelry, as examples, operate at much much higher margins.

But what I said is still true, the lbs isn’t ‘gouging’ you when he sells the chain for $91, when it probably cost him $60 or so.

I know, it’s just a weird set of circumstances- I can actually buy 11s chains for like 37 ish and if I buy 2 I qualify for 2nd day air. I am unsure how Comp Cyclist does it, but I am just unable to pay the lbs price, I would have to change hobbies. My friend has a boat. He wanted a new boat so he sold it, for literally 80% of what he paid several years earlier. Bikes are just one step above gambling for some reason. At least we can get 35% in the classifieds. Also, I mean ill will to any bike shop owners, it’s a hard gig.

[mtechnica]

There is no way Potenza is better than the new ultegra?

If a kia rio is better than a BMW M3 because it's lighter and cheaper than yes maybe Potenza is better than ultegra, lol.

[shinomaster]

If a kia rio is better than a BMW M3 because it's lighter and cheaper than yes maybe Potenza is better than ultegra, lol.

But Potenza is heavier and more expensive.

[BobbyJones]

Did someone say $91 for a chain?

I'm not 100% up on Campy, but is there a SuperRecord chain or something?

[fignon's barber]

But what I said is still true, the lbs isn’t ‘gouging’ you when he sells the chain for $91, when it probably cost him $60 or so.


Absolutely. The higher price incurred at the lbs has nothing to do with the shop owner's margin. The lbs probably makes the lowest percent margin in the whole distribution chain, which is the opposite of most sales models. The problem lies with the unnecessary middle layers, who take a much bigger margin than the lbs.
The fundamental issue I have is this: Let's use Sidi as an example. If a pair of Wires sell for $278 in Europe and $500 here, I should be free to choose to buy the $278 pair. Don't meet in some back room and come up with a scheme to take away my freedom of choice and gouge me for almost double. If these unnecessary middle layers had value, the consumer would say "Sure, I'll pay the $500 because Sidi USA adds xxxx in value to the purchase". But they add nothing.

[Davist]

ANY business that requires 35% GP to "keep the lights on" in 2018 is bound for trouble. Understood about the variable distribution costs, same thing in my business (electrical) but 35% is LOOOOONG gone.

[oldpotatoe]

Absolutely. The higher price incurred at the lbs has nothing to do with the shop owner's margin. The lbs probably makes the lowest percent margin in the whole distribution chain, which is the opposite of most sales models. The problem lies with the unnecessary middle layers, who take a much bigger margin than the lbs.
The fundamental issue I have is this: Let's use Sidi as an example. If a pair of Wires sell for $278 in Europe and $500 here, I should be free to choose to buy the $278 pair. Don't meet in some back room and come up with a scheme to take away my freedom of choice and gouge me for almost double. If these unnecessary middle layers had value, the consumer would say "Sure, I'll pay the $500 because Sidi USA adds xxxx in value to the purchase". But they add nothing.

Actually not really true in all cases. What is different is they have relatively lower fixed costs..as in, fewer people, lower rent, less insurance, etc...a warehouse type distributor.

Not a backroom deal but when a reseller has a signed contract with a manufacturer in EUROPE, they can then sell for whatever they wish, where ever they wish. Same for the US, BUT in the US, if a bike shop sells way below MSRP or RMP, the supplier can cut them off, cannot do that in Europe.

PLUS a lot of Euro distributors sell to consumers and to bike shops. They get the same margin regardless. So they but the wires for $175, resell for $278..if to a bike shop, they sell for $475 or so. It IS the distribution 'model', in Europe as compared to the US.
I think everything ought to be manufacturer direct, no distributors but that's tough(and expensive) as a bike uses so many different manufacturers to make a 'bike'.

The other issue is where the reseller is getting the shoes from?..back door? Grey/black market? Seconds? Or somebody from Wiggle drives to SIDI with a suitcase full of Euros and wants to but 500 shoes at this price...I think that happens more often than not.

[oldpotatoe]

ANY business that requires 35% GP to "keep the lights on" in 2018 is bound for trouble. Understood about the variable distribution costs, same thing in my business (electrical) but 35% is LOOOOONG gone.

Not true in LBS USA..as a matter of fact, the lowest margin item in a bike shop
is a bike. BUT it depends on the retailer's fixed costs. Crappy neighborhood(low rent), no internet, 2 phone lines, no A/C or heat, 1 or 2 people max with one being the owner(lowest salary if any at all)...maybe do with lower than 35%. I had a bike shop w/i 1/2 block who had a HUGE space, $11,000 rent PER MONTH..huge staff...HUGE fixed costs...always in financial trouble, sold Giant, small service section..they are now a bar/coffee shop/bike shop..

Some higher(soft goods), some WAY higher(service, service, service..the best margin by far)..some worse, like selling a complete bike..

[Ralph]

It seems almost everything in the USA is being repriced these days. Real Estate sales, financial transactions, traditional retail, manufactured products, food production, to name a few.....and probably health care is in process. Constant changes in the business world. it's how our systems works, but it dislocates people and upsets families and makes some skills and businesses obsolete. Tough world. Probably explains the current political situation....some un happy people out there not understanding why their lives not as good as in the past. Grasping for answers and wanting things back like they were. Which can't and won't happen.

[oldpotatoe]

It seems almost everything in the USA is being repriced these days. Real Estate sales, financial transactions, traditional retail, manufactured products, food production, to name a few.....and probably health care is in process. Constant changes in the business world. it's how our systems works, but it dislocates people and upsets families and makes some skills and businesses obsolete. Tough world. Probably explains the current political situation....some un happy people out there not understanding why their lives not as good as in the past.

I hear ya brother..even in 'puppys, kittens and moon beams' republic of boulder, people are tense, looking over their shoulder, not the carefree type of a few years(few months) ago..people are tense, people are wary...

[tommyrod74]

So... when you combine the rising prices of components with the slow sales of (even lightly) used components and bikes... what does that say about the overall market for gear in our sport?

Or are the 1% who buy $12k new bikes annually enough to keep the ball rolling?

[oldpotatoe]

So... when you combine the rising prices of components with the slow sales of (even lightly) used components and bikes... what does that say about the overall market for gear in our sport?

Or are the 1% who buy $12k new bikes annually enough to keep the ball rolling?

Pretty flat for a while. Plus 'durable' good...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/227415/number-of-cyclists-and-bike-riders-usa/

[Davist]

Not true in LBS USA..as a matter of fact, the lowest margin item in a bike shop
is a bike. BUT it depends on the retailer's fixed costs. Crappy neighborhood(low rent), no internet, 2 phone lines, no A/C or heat, 1 or 2 people max with one being the owner(lowest salary if any at all)...maybe do with lower than 35%. I had a bike shop w/i 1/2 block who had a HUGE space, $11,000 rent PER MONTH..huge staff...HUGE fixed costs...always in financial trouble, sold Giant, small service section..they are now a bar/coffee shop/bike shop..

Some higher(soft goods), some WAY higher(service, service, service..the best margin by far)..some worse, like selling a complete bike..

I think you made my point.. "always in financial trouble". Not sure where you get "not true in LBS USA" the ship has sailed, some are just zombies waiting to die. And yes, unfortunate that some of the great ones will go the same way.

[oldpotatoe]

I think you made my point.. "always in financial trouble". Not sure where you get "not true in LBS USA" the ship has sailed, some are just zombies waiting to die. And yes, unfortunate that some of the great ones will go the same way.

Some are, some aren't. That one in financial trouble ran his 3 stores dumb. Too much inventory, 3 locations, too high of rent, too many people, etc...

I was never in financial trouble, other than discovering my biz partner was a thief and liar. BUT trekespecializedgiantcannondale bike shops, the traditional type, are doing well here in the republic for the most part.
The interweb has done some damage but the smart ones, Like University Bikes, are doing just fine selling a ton of bikes out the door. BUT the interweb hasn't killed retail, like dead. In the future, all retail won't be gone and amazon/whomever won't be the only way to get 'stuff'...at least with bikes anyway.

Bike shops here don't go out of business, they commit suicide. I don't buy the 'interweb is killing me, I quit..there are ways to make retail work in this interweb age.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/above-category-sausalito

[fignon's barber]

So... when you combine the rising prices of components with the slow sales of (even lightly) used components and bikes... what does that say about the overall market for gear in our sport?



Not just cycling, all outdoor sports equipment industries are in crisis now. I was watching a segment on CNBC. They hang it on it being a Millennial thing. No interest in luxury sporting goods. They interviewed a product manager from a hiking boot company, and his quote: " how can we sell them a high tech boot when all they want is a flip flop to get them from Uber to the craft brewery". :bike:

[HenryA]

In small retail, 35% gross will just get you by — maybe. If they can’t make a living they won’t be there for you when you need them.

For the “enthusiast” market there is some argument about whether or not you need a local bike shop. But, if you want to see bicycling thrive you better hope there is a local shop. Some customers and customers-to-be need the service that a local bike shop can provide. And that service has to be provided in exchange for money. Businesses are not going to be around if they don’t make money.

I am often dismayed (although no longer surprised) that folks with disposable income are sometimes the worst customers for retail and the most demanding of the retailer. It is as if a retailer making $20 on a chain while carrying it in stock on their shelves is gouging, while the customer making a six figure salary isn’t.

This is a two way street. A good retailer earns their money through giving good service. Keeping parts on the shelf is a valuable service. Giving advice is a valuable service. Its all part of the deal. Exchange of value between two parties to each parties benefit is the basis for trade. Once we lose sight of the most basic criteria of the bargain we’re doomed.

You can’t have it all your way or the other guy starves.

[oldpotatoe]

In small retail, 35% gross will just get you by — maybe. If they can’t make a living they won’t be there for you when you need them.

For the “enthusiast” market there is some argument about whether or not you need a local bike shop. But, if you want to see bicycling thrive you better hope there is a local shop. Some customers and customers-to-be need the service that a local bike shop can provide. And that service has to be provided in exchange for money. Businesses are not going to be around if they don’t make money.

I am often dismayed (although no longer surprised) that folks with disposable income are sometimes the worst customers for retail and the most demanding of the retailer. It is as if a retailer making $20 on a chain while carrying it in stock on their shelves is gouging, while the customer making a six figure salary isn’t.

This is a two way street. A good retailer earns their money through giving good service. Keeping parts on the shelf is a valuable service. Giving advice is a valuable service. Its all part of the deal. Exchange of value between two parties to each parties benefit is the basis for trade. Once we lose sight of the most basic criteria of the bargain we’re doomed.

You can’t have it all your way or the other guy starves.

Well said..too much of interweb sales are a race to the bottom..Sometimes(and bikes ARE a leisure time activity, fueled by disposable income for the most part..$ for toys) it's not just about $, but so much more. Retail, bike retail, isn't the salvation army and crappy ones shouldn't be propped up artificially but lots are good, fair, valuable resources of stuff and info..geez, pay that extra $20 for that chain..and maybe have them put it on and adjust your ders/check your cogset..for free...:)

[NYCfixie]

To be fair, Sam Walton started the race to the bottom.

One should first blame:

Walmart
BJ's Club
Cheap china imports
Kmart
Target


After them, then you can blame the Internet. The Internet and eCommerce and just making a bad thing worse.

Consumers have been trained, for so many years, to always get the best/lowest price so why should retailers now be mad at the customer for not wanting to pay full retail for anything?

Also, the average consumer does not understand the difference between crap versus quality (read anything about fast fashion) and in most cases they do not actually care.


Well said..too much of interweb sales are a race to the bottom...

[CNY rider]

I live out in the middle of nowhere and I have had the opportunity to experience life with and without a good LBS.
I have a good one now (shout out to Woodland Cycles) in Milford and I hope the guy stays in business for 40 years and becomes a millionaire.
He provides a high level of service. It’s an incredible convenience to drop bikes off for a tune up rather than running my own service center in my basement like I had to.
I don’t mind paying for it at all.
And when I buy something expensive I bring a check so he doesn’t get gouged on the credit card.

[peanutgallery]

Middle class white folks are leading the charge in the race to the bottom:) For those of you that think 35 points is price gouging...I would love to know what you do for a living. More than happy to armchair QB on how you're overpaid and lame in your career choice.

Successful bike retailers, and I am one, pay attention to the details. Pick your partners wisely and steer clear of those without strong MAP. Provide great service and steal a march when you can. Pay as you go and be aware of cash flow. Own your real estate and don't let reps talk you into anything. Stock the bare minimum and utilize just in time inventory. We do full service ski in the winter and that enables the bike scene , and vice versa. If you have a crappy partner that ditches stuff on the web, jettison them immediately. Sound easy? Give it a whirl, I need some weekend help. I provide the beer

[bobswire]

I suspect, as has been rumored, that distribution to consumers will be more regional..as in..want to buy some assos bibs? live in UK? Buy from UK reseller, type thing. PLUS some expiration of trade deals in Europe or the UK with manufacturers..Manufacturers tightening up their distribution.

Lots of products have their own bargain outlet such as Asso's. https://www.assosfactoryoutlet.com/ If you keep your eyes open sites like Planet Cyclery has very discounted pricing for Campagnolo and Shimano as well as Continental tires. Not all the time but usually a couple times a year that mimic the pricing we were getting from Europe a few years ago.

[oldpotatoe]

Middle class white folks are leading the charge in the race to the bottom:) For those of you that think 35 points is price gouging...I would love to know what you do for a living. More than happy to armchair QB on how you're overpaid and lame in your career choice.

Successful bike retailers, and I am one, pay attention to the details. Pick your partners wisely and steer clear of those without strong MAP. Provide great service and steal a march when you can. Pay as you go and be aware of cash flow. Own your real estate and don't let reps talk you into anything. Stock the bare minimum and utilize just in time inventory. We do full service ski in the winter and that enables the bike scene , and vice versa. If you have a crappy partner that ditches stuff on the web, jettison them immediately. Sound easy? Give it a whirl, I need some weekend help. I provide the beer

Well said, welcome to the jungle.....

[oldpotatoe]

Lots of products have their own bargain outlet such as Asso's. https://www.assosfactoryoutlet.com/ If you keep your eyes open sites like Planet Cyclery has very discounted pricing for Campagnolo and Shimano as well as Continental tires. Not all the time but usually a couple times a year that mimic the pricing we were getting from Europe a few years ago.

But remember, planet cycelry has a ‘self’ warranty only. NO factory support.