Hmmmmmmmmmmmm 12 on the road?

[Cicli]

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/campagnolo-12-speed-51961/

[Dave B]

YESSSS! Now 10 speed stuff might finally be affordable!

[54ny77]

i seriously don't get it.

heck, i'd be fine with 9 speeds. or even 8.

do some of you guys really use all available gearing in an 11 speed cassette?

on any given variety of terrain where i ride, i use a combo of 5, maybe 6 gears from the cassette.

[merckxman]

Campagnolo filed for a 12 speed patent in 2009:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2009/11/campagnolo-12-speed.html?m=1

[e-RICHIE]

This is for a 130mm O.L.D.?

[saab2000]

do some of you guys really use all available gearing in an 11 speed cassette?



All the time. My gravel bike, which has been getting a lot of use lately, has a 34/46 crank and an 11-32 cassette. On a local ride it’s not uncommon at all to use the 46x11 and a minute later be on the 34x32 and in between steep hills the rollers will see everything in between. I love 11-speed and if they can make 12 reliable, why wouldn’t I love it even more than 11?

My 11-speed stuff is great. What we need is 135mm spacing.

[AngryScientist]

do some of you guys really use all available gearing in an 11 speed cassette?



what is curious, if campagnolo does go ahead with this is if they will enter the 1x market.

more gears in the back become more important when you go to a single chainring.

[54ny77]

fair enough, hadn't thought about that market.

my myopic view is road only and in the terrain i'm most on.


All the time. My gravel bike, which has been getting a lot of use lately, has a 34/46 crank and an 11-32 cassette. On a local ride it’s not uncommon at all to use the 46x11 and a minute later be on the 34x32 and in between steep hills the rollers will see everything in between. I love 11-speed and if they can make 12 reliable, why wouldn’t I love it even more than 11?

My 11-speed stuff is great. What we need is 135mm spacing.

[William]

You can't go past eleven?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o







William

[joosttx]

This is for a 130mm O.L.D.?

Here are the claims of said* patent. Quick skim I dont see 130mm. I will read it after cooking dinner.

* thats lawyer speak for "what we been talking about".

What is claimed is:
1. A bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly comprising, twelve sprockets in a twelve sprocket assembly configured for mounting to a bicycle freewheel hub, wherein the freewheel hub rotates about a rotation axis and has a spoke attachment portion and a frame fastening portion which are spaced apart by an axial distance, and wherein end sprockets of the twelve sprocket assembly are positioned within the axial distance.

2. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein the sprocket assembly is bounded by a first plane positioned at the spoke attachment portion and a second plane positioned at the frame fastening portion.

3. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 2, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 46 mm.

4. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 2, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 43.5 mm.

5. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 2, wherein a first end sprocket of the twelve sprocket assembly is immediately adjacent to the first plane and a second end sprocket of the twelve sprocket assembly opposite to the first end sprocket is immediately adjacent to the second plane.

6. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein each sprocket is generally planar in the area of the rotation axis.

7. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein inner diameter surfaces of all of the twelve sprockets are parallel to the rotation axis.

8. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 42.5 mm.

9. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 8, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 40.5 mm.

10. A bicycle motion transmission system, comprising:
a freewheel body of a rear wheel hub having a first plane that is perpendicular to a rotation axis of the rear wheel hub and is defined by an axially inner most portion of the hub that includes spoke attachment seats, and a second plane that is perpendicular to the rotation axis of the rear wheel hub, and is defined by a portion of the hub that includes a frame attachment portion; and
twelve sprockets that define a twelve sprocket assembly mounted on the freewheel body of the rear wheel hub with a first end sprocket and second end sprocket that are the outermost sprockets of the twelve sprocket assembly, and the first end sprocket and the second end sprocket are bounded by the first and second planes.

11. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10 wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 46 mm.

12. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 43.5 mm.

13. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein the first end sprocket is immediately adjacent to the first plane and the second end sprocket is immediately adjacent to the second plane.

14. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein the first end sprocket is spaced inwardly from the first plane in a direction toward a center of the twelve sprocket assembly and the second end sprocket is spaced inwardly from the second plane in a direction toward a center of the twelve sprocket assembly.

15. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10 further including a chain having an alternating succession of outer links comprised of two parallel plates and inner links comprised of two parallel plates, the outer and inner links are connected to each other at respective connection and are spaced apart to define a sprocket tooth receiving space between the two parallel inner plate.

16. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 42.5 mm.

17. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 16, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 40.5 mm.

18. A combination of a bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly and a drive chain, comprising:
a twelve sprocket assembly with first and second end sprockets being the outermost sprockets of the twelve sprocket assembly, the first and second end sprockets both being bounded by a first plane that is perpendicular to a rotation axis of a rear wheel hub, and is defined by an axially inner most portion of the hub that includes spoke attachment seats, and a second plane that is perpendicular to the rotation axis of the rear wheel hub, and is defined by a portion of the hub that includes a frame attachment portion; and
a chain having an alternating succession of outer links comprised of two parallel plates and inner links comprised of two parallel plates, the outer and inner links are connected to each other at respective connection and are spaced apart to define a sprocket tooth receiving space between the two parallel inner plates.

19. The combination of claim 18, wherein the chain has a maximum thickness, as measured at the parallel outer links, between and including 4.6 mm and 5.8 mm.

20. The combination of claim 19, wherein the chain has a maximum thickness which is greater than 4.8 mm.

21. The combination of claim 20, wherein the chain has a maximum thickness which is greater than 5.0 mm.

22. The combination of claim 18, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 46 mm.

23. The combination of claim 22, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 43.5 mm.

24. The combination of claim 18, wherein the first end sprocket is immediately next the first plane and the second end sprocket is immediately next the second plane.

25. The combination of claim 18, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 42.5 mm.

26. The combination of claim 25, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 40.5 mm.

27. A bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly comprising, twelve sprockets in a mounting assembly configured for mounting to a bicycle freewheel hub that rotates about a rotation axis, the bicycle freewheel hub has a spoke attachment portion and a frame fastening portion that are axially separated to define between them an axial mounting space where the mounting assembly with the twelve sprockets mounts to the bicycle freewheel hub with extreme end sprockets of the twelve sprockets positioned perpendicular to the rotation axis and within the mounting space.

28. A bicycle motion transmission system, comprising:
a bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly comprising twelve sprockets in a twelve sprocket assembly configured for mounting to a bicycle free wheel hub, the twelve sprockets including a largest sprocket and a smallest sprocket; and
a chain configured to engage sprocket teeth of each of the twelve sprockets, wherein:
the freewheel hub has a spoke attachment portion and a frame fastening portion which are spaced apart by an axial distance;
the chain is comprised of alternating inner and outer links that are connected to each other, each inner and outer link includes two spaced apart plates that define a void that receives one tooth of at least one of the sprockets; and
the chain remains within the axial distance when it moves over the sprocket assembly from the smallest sprocket to the largest sprocket.

29. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 28, wherein the twelve sprockets in a twelve sprocket assembly are mounted within the predetermined axial distance.

[pbarry]

Did the Tiso 12 speed group ever make it into production?

[oldpotatoe]

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/campagnolo-12-speed-51961/

They have all sort of patents that they never acted on. I remember one for a gripshift type shifter..NOT bullet but something ala sram..O would start saving my pennies for 12s quite yet.:)

[ultraman6970]

There was one moving around but that company never made anything massively.

What surprise me of the comments in the article is that somebody is complaining of the jumps in some clusters, honestly have a straight block or half straight block is a great thing IMO.

Will be interesting to see this moving around, if its makes it out to market.

Did the Tiso 12 speed group ever make it into production?

[zap]

edit


do some of you guys really use all available gearing in an 11 speed cassette?


Yes.

Twelve will be nice.

[Tony T]

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmm 12 on the road?"

Nope, not on the road

The Campagnolo patent appears broad in its scope and it's difficult to tell how much of its content is hypothetical and how much relates to actual products we can expect to see in production in the near future.

[batman1425]

I know this same argument has been used for the changes to 9, 10, and 11 speed etc. but I can't see much value at 12 with the gear ranges and spreads on 111s. The one application I can get behind is 1x setups (Like Sram has done with Eagle) to make the jumps more reasonable by tossing in an extra cog. If you have a FD, I can't see 12 moving the needle much in a functional way.

Where's the limit going to be? 18speed with singe tooth jumps from 11 to 28 with optional half link chainrings?

[sandyrs]

do some of you guys really use all available gearing in an 11 speed cassette?


Of course. Every bike I have is 11 speed, from a MTB with 32x11-42 gearing to a road bike with 52-36/11-32. I use every gear on all of them, except (if I can help it) the extreme cross-chains (i.e. 52/32 on the road bike). If you aren't using half the cogs on your cassette, you should get a different cassette with range more appropriate for your riding!

Now, do I need 11 speeds? Of course not, I'd be fine with the same or slightly less range with 9 speeds I'm sure.

[54ny77]

Perhaps you misunderstood or I wasn't clear--10 speed cassette is perfectly fine for my range of riding, taking both terrain and effort into account. I really only use about 6 gears of cassette in conjunction w/the 34-50 chainrings on most bikes (I also have a 39/53 on one bike). I have absolutely no use for 11 speeds. Obviously, many folks do, like yourselves and others. Was just curious about how many actually use the full range--on the road, that is. MTB, yes I could readily see using all gears.

It's all good. :cool:



Of course. Every bike I have is 11 speed, from a MTB with 32x11-42 gearing to a road bike with 52-36/11-32. I use every gear on all of them, except (if I can help it) the extreme cross-chains (i.e. 52/32 on the road bike). If you aren't using half the cogs on your cassette, you should get a different cassette with range more appropriate for your riding!

Now, do I need 11 speeds? Of course not, I'd be fine with the same or slightly less range with 9 speeds I'm sure.

[Mark McM]

Here are the claims of said* patent. Quick skim I dont see 130mm. I will read it after cooking dinner.

* thats lawyer speak for "what we been talking about".

What is claimed is:
1. A bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly comprising, twelve sprockets in a twelve sprocket assembly configured for mounting to a bicycle freewheel hub, wherein the freewheel hub rotates about a rotation axis and has a spoke attachment portion and a frame fastening portion which are spaced apart by an axial distance, and wherein end sprockets of the twelve sprocket assembly are positioned within the axial distance.

2. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein the sprocket assembly is bounded by a first plane positioned at the spoke attachment portion and a second plane positioned at the frame fastening portion.

3. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 2, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 46 mm.

4. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 2, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 43.5 mm.

5. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 2, wherein a first end sprocket of the twelve sprocket assembly is immediately adjacent to the first plane and a second end sprocket of the twelve sprocket assembly opposite to the first end sprocket is immediately adjacent to the second plane.

6. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein each sprocket is generally planar in the area of the rotation axis.

7. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein inner diameter surfaces of all of the twelve sprockets are parallel to the rotation axis.

8. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 1, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 42.5 mm.

9. The bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly of claim 8, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 40.5 mm.

10. A bicycle motion transmission system, comprising:
a freewheel body of a rear wheel hub having a first plane that is perpendicular to a rotation axis of the rear wheel hub and is defined by an axially inner most portion of the hub that includes spoke attachment seats, and a second plane that is perpendicular to the rotation axis of the rear wheel hub, and is defined by a portion of the hub that includes a frame attachment portion; and
twelve sprockets that define a twelve sprocket assembly mounted on the freewheel body of the rear wheel hub with a first end sprocket and second end sprocket that are the outermost sprockets of the twelve sprocket assembly, and the first end sprocket and the second end sprocket are bounded by the first and second planes.

11. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10 wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 46 mm.

12. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 43.5 mm.

13. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein the first end sprocket is immediately adjacent to the first plane and the second end sprocket is immediately adjacent to the second plane.

14. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein the first end sprocket is spaced inwardly from the first plane in a direction toward a center of the twelve sprocket assembly and the second end sprocket is spaced inwardly from the second plane in a direction toward a center of the twelve sprocket assembly.

15. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10 further including a chain having an alternating succession of outer links comprised of two parallel plates and inner links comprised of two parallel plates, the outer and inner links are connected to each other at respective connection and are spaced apart to define a sprocket tooth receiving space between the two parallel inner plate.

16. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 10, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 42.5 mm.

17. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 16, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 40.5 mm.

18. A combination of a bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly and a drive chain, comprising:
a twelve sprocket assembly with first and second end sprockets being the outermost sprockets of the twelve sprocket assembly, the first and second end sprockets both being bounded by a first plane that is perpendicular to a rotation axis of a rear wheel hub, and is defined by an axially inner most portion of the hub that includes spoke attachment seats, and a second plane that is perpendicular to the rotation axis of the rear wheel hub, and is defined by a portion of the hub that includes a frame attachment portion; and
a chain having an alternating succession of outer links comprised of two parallel plates and inner links comprised of two parallel plates, the outer and inner links are connected to each other at respective connection and are spaced apart to define a sprocket tooth receiving space between the two parallel inner plates.

19. The combination of claim 18, wherein the chain has a maximum thickness, as measured at the parallel outer links, between and including 4.6 mm and 5.8 mm.

20. The combination of claim 19, wherein the chain has a maximum thickness which is greater than 4.8 mm.

21. The combination of claim 20, wherein the chain has a maximum thickness which is greater than 5.0 mm.

22. The combination of claim 18, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 46 mm.

23. The combination of claim 22, wherein a maximum axial width of the sprocket assembly is no greater than 43.5 mm.

24. The combination of claim 18, wherein the first end sprocket is immediately next the first plane and the second end sprocket is immediately next the second plane.

25. The combination of claim 18, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 42.5 mm.

26. The combination of claim 25, wherein a distance measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly is no greater than 40.5 mm.

27. A bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly comprising, twelve sprockets in a mounting assembly configured for mounting to a bicycle freewheel hub that rotates about a rotation axis, the bicycle freewheel hub has a spoke attachment portion and a frame fastening portion that are axially separated to define between them an axial mounting space where the mounting assembly with the twelve sprockets mounts to the bicycle freewheel hub with extreme end sprockets of the twelve sprockets positioned perpendicular to the rotation axis and within the mounting space.

28. A bicycle motion transmission system, comprising:
a bicycle rear wheel sprocket assembly comprising twelve sprockets in a twelve sprocket assembly configured for mounting to a bicycle free wheel hub, the twelve sprockets including a largest sprocket and a smallest sprocket; and
a chain configured to engage sprocket teeth of each of the twelve sprockets, wherein:
the freewheel hub has a spoke attachment portion and a frame fastening portion which are spaced apart by an axial distance;
the chain is comprised of alternating inner and outer links that are connected to each other, each inner and outer link includes two spaced apart plates that define a void that receives one tooth of at least one of the sprockets; and
the chain remains within the axial distance when it moves over the sprocket assembly from the smallest sprocket to the largest sprocket.

29. The bicycle motion transmission system of claim 28, wherein the twelve sprockets in a twelve sprocket assembly are mounted within the predetermined axial distance.


Reading these claims, I can't imagine how that application should be approved. There is nothing new here that is both unique and non-obvious. The only thing it adds to current multi-sprocket rear wheel designs is a 12th sprocket - all the other details apply equally as well to 7/8/9/10/11 speed wheels. And since we have already progressed through 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 sprockets, adding a 12th sprocket can not be considered non-obvious. The application also specifies cassette and chain maximum widths. But as we've already decreased widths in the progression from 7 to 11 sprockets, this can't be considered non-obvious either.

As far as the question about whether this 12 speed cassette fits 130mm spacing, I think the answer is no. A current Campagnolo 11spd cassette is 40.1mm wide, and barely fits into the available space. This application calls out two potential maximum cassette widths of 43.5mm and 46mm. The 43.5mm would allow 12 sprockets at the current 11spd center-to-center spacing, but wouldn't fit on current wheels (and the 46mm spacing is even wider still). I think this new 12spd cassette would be targeted at 135mm axle widths. Given Campagnolo's apparent push toward disc brakes, the wider axle spacing makes even more sense.

[benb]

I have 9-speed on my MTB and 10-speed on both my road bikes.

I use the whole range on the cassette on all the bikes, when I've test rode an 11-speed bike I use the whole range as well. If you hand me a 12-speed bike I'll use the whole range too.

That's just cause they all tend to have the same-ish smallest cog (11-12) and/or biggest cog. (25/27/28 for road, something in the 30-32 range for off road)

Doesn't mean I need 10 or 11 or 12 though.

I always felt like 8 was slightly annoying compared to 9. I could take or leave any more than 9.

I guess the greatest thing about it all is every cog means all the parts are more expensive and they all seem to wear out faster. Super great.

My 9-speed MTB sees the worst conditions and I abuse it the most and clean it the least and those chains and cogs seem like they last forever compared to the 10-speed road stuff and are way less finicky as parts wear. And it's not even a matched drivetrain, it's got SRAM shifters & rear derailleur & cassette but a Shimano crankset + front derailleur.

[BdaGhisallo]

what is curious, if campagnolo does go ahead with this is if they will enter the 1x market.

more gears in the back become more important when you go to a single chainring.

YES!!!! They are going to enter the 1x market for MTB gearing! The long awaited return of Campy Euclid. I can hardly wait.

[echappist]

Reading these claims, I can't imagine how that application should be approved. There is nothing new here that is both unique and non-obvious. The only thing it adds to current multi-sprocket rear wheel designs is a 12th sprocket - all the other details apply equally as well to 7/8/9/10/11 speed wheels. And since we have already progressed through 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 sprockets, adding a 12th sprocket can not be considered non-obvious. The application also specifies cassette and chain maximum widths. But as we've already decreased widths in the progression from 7 to 11 sprockets, this can't be considered non-obvious either.


The claims are that of the application (15/463,915), and examination has yet to begin. In other words, pipe dream claims with no legal standing.


As far as the question about whether this 12 speed cassette fits 130mm spacing, I think the answer is no. A current Campagnolo 11spd cassette is 40.1mm wide, and barely fits into the available space. This application calls out two potential maximum cassette widths of 43.5mm and 46mm. The 43.5mm would allow 12 sprockets at the current 11spd center-to-center spacing, but wouldn't fit on current wheels (and the 46mm spacing is even wider still). I think this new 12spd cassette would be targeted at 135mm axle widths. Given Campagnolo's apparent push toward disc brakes, the wider axle spacing makes even more sense.
Another related application matured into a patent with claim 1 reading as follows. Note the width measurements

1. A bicycle freewheel body and sprocket assembly wherein:
the freewheel body has a predetermined axial width, an outer surface that is configured to mate with one or more sprockets of the sprocket assembly, and an internal surface selected to mate with a hub associated with a bicycle rear wheel; and,

the sprocket assembly has eleven sprockets of various diameters that are arranged on the freewheel body with a largest diameter sprocket and a smallest diameter sprocket forming end sprockets of the sprocket assembly, each of the end sprockets has an outer face and the respective outer face of each end sprocket faces in an opposite directions and the outer faces are spaced from each other along the freewheel body predetermined axial width by a distance that is no greater than 42.5 mm;

an assembly of at least eleven sprockets, that has an overall axial width, measured between respective outer faces of end sprockets in the assembly, that is no greater than 40.5 mm; and,

a chain comprised of an alternating succession of inner and outer links, connected to each other at respective connection ends,

each of the links comprising inner and outer plates that are arranged parallel to each other, the two plates of both the outer links and the inner links being spaced apart from each other to define between the two plates a void space that receives at least one tooth of at least one of the sprockets.