Now Wiggins. It never ends [Archive]

54ny77

03-04-2018, 08:29 PM

Maybe his medical need was he needed drugs to pedal faster, ergo, all's good.

:p

"Wiggins said: “I find it so sad that accusations can be made, where people can be accused of things they have never done which are then regarded as facts. I strongly refute the claim that any drug was used without medical need.I hope to have my say in the next few days and put to my side across.”

.RJ

03-04-2018, 08:42 PM

UCI approved all of these so.... no rules broken.

FlashUNC

03-04-2018, 08:46 PM

unterhausen

03-04-2018, 08:49 PM

You are surprised?
:confused:
I'm a little disappointed that it was this obvious. I knew they were cheating, but I thought it was through some new method that wasn't detectable.

ultraman6970

03-04-2018, 09:04 PM

The problem with this is that will end up at frommey's. The question is what are they gong to do?

THe cycling entities gonna have to get out of this clean, wonder what they will do with Fromey's now. IMO they gonna have to sack him.

makoti

03-04-2018, 09:34 PM

You are surprised?
:confused:
.

Surprised? Not really. Disappointed? Yes.

cadence90

03-04-2018, 09:46 PM

Surprised? Not really. Disappointed? Yes.

Yes. A better word I suppose. Either way, it seems really impossible (and sad) to trust anymore.
.

MattTuck

03-04-2018, 10:19 PM

echappist

03-04-2018, 11:04 PM

ironic that i just saw a Skoda ad starring brave brave sir wiggo while I was watching rerun of Track Worlds. Looks like Skoda picked the wrong person to endorse its products

shinomaster

03-04-2018, 11:06 PM

Sky has been dominant for way too long.

fignon's barber

03-05-2018, 06:04 AM

ironic that i just saw a Skoda ad starring brave brave sir wiggo while I was watching rerun of Track Worlds. Looks like Skoda picked the wrong person to endorse its products

Depends on which Skoda they are selling? Do they make a high octane fuel model?

fignon's barber

03-05-2018, 06:09 AM

Wiggins couldn't get out of the spotlight fast enough after the Tour win and the Olympic gold. Immediately shifted his goals to think that may not require as much of a program, like trying to win Roubaix, the hour record and going back to the track.

Duh, of course he doped.

Remember how he crumbled at the next year's Giro? A shell of his Tour winning self.
The thing that gets me is how he so self righteously denounced virtually every rider of the era as a doper.

unterhausen

03-05-2018, 06:55 AM

I like Wiggins, but he was second tier for so long that his rise to the top was not that believable to me.

binxnyrwarrsoul

03-05-2018, 07:02 AM

Remember how he crumbled at the next year's Giro? A shell of his Tour winning self.
The thing that gets me is how he so self righteously denounced virtually every rider of the era as a doper.

Distraction. Deflect attention to others, other "worse" stories, et al. It's an extremely winning formula these days, in many arenas. When sports was turned into action films, entertainment etc. is when doping of some sort or another became an integral part of "training." Imho, or course.

William

03-05-2018, 07:03 AM

Same as it ever was (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGofoH9RDEA)....

William

bobswire

03-05-2018, 07:54 AM

William

03-05-2018, 08:44 AM

The problem lies in the rules and the system, not the riders in this case. Wiggins benefitted by this but I doubt instituted it, higher-ups made the decision and found the cracks in the system for the whole team to take advantage of. As usual, the riders will take the brunt of the accusations and be made the scapegoats and as fans, we take glee in taking them down off the pedestals we put them on to now rake them over the coals. UCI, team(s) management and WADA is as much to blame as any of the racers. Let's not forget the elephant in the room, this sport is supported by sponsors who expect a return on their investment. IMO, Wiggins won within the rules that were in place at the time, as to what he ingested is guesswork at this time.
Quote: " “This does not constitute a violation of the World Anti-Doping Agency code, but it does cross the ethical line that David Brailsford says he himself drew for Team Sky."
Great, then David Brailsford is well suited for politics. Too bad he is not American, he would place well in Trump's cabinet.

I would agree that there are consistently many levels of the professional cycling system that are chronically involved in working the system and/our outright cheating. That said, the riders don't work in a vacuum. If drugs are used to enhance performance they are the ultimate repository for those drugs. They aren't administered in their sleep without their knowledge. If the accusations turn out to be true, the riders had to have known. If history can tell us anything so far is that eventually it comes out.

As far as the Trump comment, no need to try to drive the thread into politics.:no:

William

adub

03-05-2018, 08:53 AM

And how is this different than any other pro sport?

For some odd reason pro cycling is the whipping boy for anti-doping in sport?

benb

03-05-2018, 08:53 AM

I just read Phil Gaimon's latest book last week.

It was a good window into how these guys end up going along with whatever the coaches/doctors want them to put into their systems.

You read his book and JV is such a slimy scoundrel... and he's supposedly one of the better Directors/Managers/Owners. They make so little money until they get right to the sharp end of the World Tour and win huge, and the owners/managers are manipulating and messing with their heads the entire time... they're probably so worried about what they are going to do if they get cut or retire so much that when there is any hope of a big win they just go along and do what they're told.

Can't say anything about Team Sky is a surprise at this point.. there have been little tidbits of this getting released all along, the Russian Hacking leak of the TUE data a while back detailed all this.

I would have to say I'd be scared a lot about some of these wonky drug applications if I was a rider. The doctors are way off the reservation with some of this stuff.

William

03-05-2018, 09:03 AM

And how is this different than any other pro sport?

For some odd reason pro cycling is the whipping boy for anti-doping in sport?

I don't think anyone here claimed it was different, but seeing as this is a cycling forum...

Part of the reason (I think historically) it gets attention is because of how hard they seem to try to deny that PED's are being used, overtime it comes up again and again over the years with different teams and racers. Ultimately the truth generally comes out in the affirmative either by admission or overwhelming evidence. The hypocrisy draws attention.

William

chiasticon

03-05-2018, 09:10 AM

related article by David Millar: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/16/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-away-with-doping.html

"The three times I took Kenacort were also the times I was the lightest I’d been in my career, yet I didn’t lose power — often the penalty when a rider sheds weight." (Kenacort is a brand name for triamcinolone acetonide, what Wiggins had a TUE for.)

this drug (and cortisone, etc) basically forces you to burn your body fat for energy, without losing power. I've yet to understand the relation to Salbutamol, but I'm guessing it's similar.

my guess is most riders view this as a gray area of "well, it's legal now..." similar to using, I dunno... super aero skinsuits or certain TT positions. they won under the rules at the time, by their outlook.

adub

03-05-2018, 09:16 AM

I don't think anyone here claimed it was different, but seeing as this is a cycling forum...

Part of the reason (I think historically) it gets attention is because of how hard they seem to try to deny that PED's are being used, overtime it comes up again and again over the years with different teams and racers. Ultimately the truth generally comes out in the affirmative either by admission or overwhelming evidence. The hypocrisy draws attention.

William

Ya I get it but it seems when these stories "leak" so many people are disappointed, in denial, etc. The informed and the realists know that its all a bunch of lies and doping is as much a part of sport as it ever has been, and will continue to be an integral part of the story of spory, as it has been throughout history.

The general public "dopes" to grow back hair, have a better erection, for better sleep, anxiety, etc, etc, yet we are supposed to reject the idea and hold it abhorrent to dope in sport when there are millions of dollars at stake in an ultra-competitive business?

Seems counter-intuitive to how the general public lives their lives?

Why should our idols be held to a higher regard that we hold ourselves to?

fiamme red

03-05-2018, 09:20 AM

And how is this different than any other pro sport? What, you don't think that all the players at the NFL Scouting Combine are clean? ;)

William

03-05-2018, 09:28 AM

Ya I get it but it seems when these stories "leak" so many people are disappointed, in denial, etc. The informed and the realists know that its all a bunch of lies and doping is as much a part of sport as it ever has been, and will continue to be an integral part of the story of spory, as it has been throughout history.

The general public "dopes" to grow back hair, have a better erection, for better sleep, anxiety, etc, etc, yet we are supposed to reject the idea and hold it abhorrent to dope in sport when there are millions of dollars at stake in an ultra-competitive business?

Seems counter-intuitive to how the general public lives their lives?

Why should our idols be held to a higher regard that we hold ourselves to?

Yeah, they do it, always have and probably always will. It's the dog and pony denial show that they throw up every time someone gets popped or evidence starts coming out pointing to it that draws the reactions. Add to that the fact that there are always fans that want to believe, go back and read threads on the Paceline from when Lance was racing and winning. So many people wanted to believe he was racing clean in spite of cycling history and growing evidence.

They should just drop the pretense of running "clean" and let them race. Pass the race doctors basic physical and you are good to go to the starting line...good luck.

William

benb

03-05-2018, 09:37 AM

I think we're maybe just more obsessed with it possibly because our sport can be turned upside down so much by doping, perhaps more than others.

A lot of our American ball/puck sports can be played by athletes that don't have to be at the razor's edge in terms of minimum body fat & maximum strength & power, and the drugs can't necessarily help with the skill aspects.

Whereas cycling has long had that adage that clean riders absolutely cannot compete with doped riders at the highest level.

That Millar article was interesting regarding the immune effects of these corticosteroids & cortisone drugs... does anyone think the riders are getting fewer of these mysterious infections & illnesses? I do remember it being really common!

Mzilliox

03-05-2018, 09:50 AM

I think we should let pros dope and totally ban it among amateurs. pros exist to entertain anymore, so let em dope if they want. those who prefer a level playing field can be actual athletes, not entertainers, and compete at Olympics or wherever people practicing sport do their thing.

lets just admit we like being entertained, we will pay lots of money for it, and those who entertain us will go through weird things to do it the best so they get paid for it.

the end

William

03-05-2018, 09:54 AM

lets just admit we like being entertained, we will pay lots of money for it, and those who entertain us will go through weird things to do it the best so they get paid for it.

the end

"ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-l6tHeseDY)" :)

William

William

03-05-2018, 09:57 AM

At least he can claim that he didn't ingest PED's... :)

William

Kontact

03-05-2018, 10:27 AM

And how is this different than any other pro sport?

For some odd reason pro cycling is the whipping boy for anti-doping in sport?

Because cyclists benefit so much more than a baseball player would. The sport is 98% endurance.

FlashUNC

03-05-2018, 10:45 AM

If anybody thinks there isn't widespread performance enhancing going on in the NFL, I've got this bridge from Manhattan to Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

binxnyrwarrsoul

03-05-2018, 12:34 PM

If anybody thinks there isn't widespread performance enhancing going on in the NFL, I've got this bridge from Manhattan to Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

And the NBA, MLB, NHL, etc.

unterhausen

03-05-2018, 12:39 PM

I think MLB players are finding it more difficult to dope successfully now. I never understood why they got so much attention when it's obvious that football players are heavily doping. It would totally change the game. In fact, the abrupt elimination of doping in baseball probably explains why it has lost so much popularity, they probably need to juice the balls again.

Football might be better off if people weren't quite so strong, there are a lot of injuries due to that.

rousseau

03-05-2018, 01:04 PM

If anybody thinks there isn't widespread performance enhancing going on in the NFL, I've got this bridge from Manhattan to Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
I highly doubt you own a bridge of such prominence. And I highly doubt you'd find a buyer on a website like this anyway.

In my experience, a lot of these so-called "bridge sellers" don't seem legit.

makoti

03-05-2018, 01:08 PM

If anybody thinks there isn't widespread performance enhancing going on in the NFL, I've got this bridge from Manhattan to Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

This is both true & completely beside the point. The fact that one sport is dirty is not justification for another to be as more dirty.

FlashUNC

03-05-2018, 01:14 PM

This is both true & completely beside the point. The fact that one sport is dirty is not justification for another to be as more dirty.

Of course not, but the "woe is me, why is cycling so dirty when other sports aren't" is a naive and myopic view of things.

tylercheung

03-05-2018, 01:19 PM

I think this highlights the difference for me between "bicycle racing" and "bicycle riding". Racing is racing, a competition, a fight, and people do what it takes to win. Granted, the bikes are exciting and the competition drives the development of new technologies which trickle down and make life better for the public.

But...it's philosophically not what I'm looking for when I (and I suspect many of us) ride. I ride for enjoyment, to calm myself down, get rid of stress, and for the joys of the open road. I ride to enjoy California, or Boston, or Colorado. Yes, I'd love to have better endurance and athletic capabilities, but I'm not out for blood.

Thus, bicycle racing has never really held a lot of excitement for me, and the litany of last year's champion inevitably found to have won with PEDs furthers the disillusionment.

BdaGhisallo

03-05-2018, 01:31 PM

And how is this different than any other pro sport?

For some odd reason pro cycling is the whipping boy for anti-doping in sport?

Yup. How many give much of a second thought to the doping scandal surrounding the Juventus football club in the late 90s and early 00s? A raid of their training grounds found over 200 different drugs and charges laid against the team medical staff for administering EPO and other drugs to the players. One of the players who admitted to taking drugs was Zinedane Zidane, the current manager of Real Madrid.

Do any football fans treat them with disdain or consider them fit to be thrown out of the sport for life? Nope.

Sports with doping problems as big or bigger than cycling like football and athletics, don't seem to give a toss about it all. Look Stateside with the NFL and MLB and their past and present doping issues. Anyone care? Not really.

The difference? Cycling is a low class and gritty sport. It is not a glamorous sport that the elite of society really care all that much about. Our sport will always get dumped on and will take it on the chin, knowing it is no worse than any other and probably much better since it has and is taking active measures to combat doping. Does cycling get any credit for that from global opinion makers? Nope. It simply gets pilloried for not living up to standards that the standard setters don't set nor live up to in their own industries. The hypocrisy is rife and I no longer give a monkey's sh&t about what they think. I love cycling, for its beauties and its faults, and that won't ever change.

adub

03-05-2018, 01:47 PM

Because cyclists benefit so much more than a baseball player would. The sport is 98% endurance.

Remember the late 1990's home run chase with Sosa, Mcgwire, Canseco?

These guys obviously doped for other reasons than endurance.

Kontact

03-05-2018, 01:50 PM

Yup. How many give much of a second thought to the doping scandal surrounding the Juventus football club in the late 90s and early 00s? A raid of their training grounds found over 200 different drugs and charges laid against the team medical staff for administering EPO and other drugs to the players. One of the players who admitted to taking drugs was Zinedane Zidane, the current manager of Real Madrid.

Do any football fans treat them with disdain or consider them fit to be thrown out of the sport for life? Nope.

Sports with doping problems as big or bigger than cycling like football and athletics, don't seem to give a toss about it all. Look Stateside with the NFL and MLB and their past and present doping issues. Anyone care? Not really.

The difference? Cycling is a low class and gritty sport. It is not a glamorous sport that the elite of society really care all that much about. Our sport will always get dumped on and will take it on the chin, knowing it is no worse than any other and probably much better since it has and is taking active measures to combat doping. Does cycling get any credit for that from global opinion makers? Nope. It simply gets pilloried for not living up to standards that the standard setters don't set nor live up to in their own industries. The hypocrisy is rife and I no longer give a monkey's sh&t about what they think. I love cycling, for its beauties and its faults, and that won't ever change.
This is a bit over the top. There are outraged fans and apologists for every doped sport.

The point I was making earlier is that some sports have such an emphasis on skill that the effect of doping doesn't seem as gratuitous as it does in a sport where winning really does come down to wattage more than anything else. We don't talk about dopers winning cycling races because of fantastic tactics or fearless descents, but sitting up and churning up a mountain side at a pace no one else can match.

rousseau

03-05-2018, 02:08 PM

Cycling is a low class and gritty sport. It is not a glamorous sport that the elite of society really care all that much about.
Is this really true? My sense is that there's a sheen of glamour to it in North America because of its association with Europe. To the minority here who ever give a thought to it, anyway.

In Europe cycling really is the sport for those in the lower socioeconomic classes wanting to get a leg up, analogously to the NBA and NFL for African-Americans. But does that make it "low class"?

It's odd how a race like Paris-Roubaix really is one of the grittiest sporting contests going, but the turbo-charged MAMILs taking over North American roads on the weekends are viewed with suspicion as elitist douches.

BdaGhisallo

03-05-2018, 02:13 PM

Is this really true? My sense is that there's a sheen of glamour to it in North America because of its association with Europe. To the minority here who ever give a thought to it, anyway.

In Europe cycling really is the sport for those in the lower socioeconomic classes wanting to get a leg up, analogously to the NBA and NFL for African-Americans. But does that make it "low class"?

It's odd how a race like Paris-Roubaix really is one of the grittiest sporting contests going, but the turbo-charged MAMILs taking over North American roads on the weekends are viewed with suspicion as elitist douches.

Low class as in a working class sport like boxing is what I meant. It's on the lower end of the scale that sees yachting and polo at the other end, for sure.

benb

03-05-2018, 02:18 PM

Careers would probably be 50% shorter in the NFL if they were actually clean.

They would have so much more trouble recovering week to week and injuries that they shake off would drag out and become career enders.

Baseball is seemingly much of the same. Baseball seems easy but they stand around and get "cold" and then have to sprint/dive/slide/jump whatever at 100%... lots of chances to get pulled muscles and other stuff that PEDs help make go away faster.

Mark McM

03-05-2018, 03:14 PM

The point I was making earlier is that some sports have such an emphasis on skill that the effect of doping doesn't seem as gratuitous as it does in a sport where winning really does come down to wattage more than anything else. We don't talk about dopers winning cycling races because of fantastic tactics or fearless descents, but sitting up and churning up a mountain side at a pace no one else can match.

And this is made ironic in light of the recent disqualification of the Bronze medal winner in curling in recent Winter Olympics.

Competitors will be tempted by anything that can (or just might) improve performance, so you'd find cases of doping in in just about every type of competition, from Weight Lifting to Chess. As they say in NASCAR: "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'".

Kontact

03-05-2018, 03:43 PM

And this is made ironic in light of the recent disqualification of the Bronze medal winner in curling in recent Winter Olympics.

Competitors will be tempted by anything that can (or just might) improve performance, so you'd find cases of doping in in just about every type of competition, from Weight Lifting to Chess. As they say in NASCAR: "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'".

It is ironic - I would certainly take on a doped curler without feeling at a disadvantage. But rules are rules.

I doubt people in the US see cycling, with its teams, uniforms, college teams, sponsors and ridiculously expensive bikes as any but a sport for the affluent. Like sculling and unlike boxing.

FlashUNC

03-05-2018, 03:47 PM

Nascar has a drug problem all it's own.

MattTuck

03-05-2018, 03:55 PM

It is ironic - I would certainly take on a doped curler without feeling at a disadvantage. But rules are rules.

I doubt people in the US see cycling, with its teams, uniforms, college teams, sponsors and ridiculously expensive bikes as any but a sport for the affluent. Like sculling and unlike boxing.

That is a byproduct of years or decades of intentional choices made by the marketing departments of the bicycle industry, combined with children being outside less, being driven around, and not viewing the bike as a mode of transport.

There was a time when a bicycle was viewed as a form of independence for the masses, transportation that everyone could afford.

Kontact

03-05-2018, 04:00 PM

That is a byproduct of years or decades of intentional choices made by the marketing departments of the bicycle industry, combined with children being outside less, being driven around, and not viewing the bike as a mode of transport.

There was a time when a bicycle was viewed as a form of independence for the masses, transportation that everyone could afford.

I was talking about the sport of bicycle racing. People using rental bikes all over have no misunderstanding that they are participating in something highfalutin.

charliedid

03-05-2018, 04:16 PM

[QUOTE=rousseau;2324969]Is this really true? My sense is that there's a sheen of glamour to it in North America because of its association with Europe. To the minority here who ever give a thought to it, anyway.

In Europe cycling really is the sport for those in the lower socioeconomic classes wanting to get a leg up, analogously to the NBA and NFL for African-Americans. But does that make it "low class"?

It's odd how a race like Paris-Roubaix really is one of the grittiest sporting contests going, but the turbo-charged MAMILs taking over North American roads on the weekends are viewed with suspicion as elitist douches.[/QUOTE

Is that really true?

How in the world is soccer not the Euro sport analogous to say the NBA?

Mark McM

03-05-2018, 04:19 PM

I doubt people in the US see cycling, with its teams, uniforms, college teams, sponsors and ridiculously expensive bikes as any but a sport for the affluent. Like sculling and unlike boxing.

In the US, riding expensive road bikes are for the golf and tennis crowd (older and affluent).

The younger, more blue collar crowd is more apt to be drawn to BMX and extreme MTB riding. (And I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't more sponsor money in BMX than there in in road racing in this country.)

rousseau

03-05-2018, 05:53 PM

Is that really true?

How in the world is soccer not the Euro sport analogous to say the NBA?
Yeah, you're right, it's football/soccer just for the sheer number of jobs available and the massive hierarchical league structure encompassing hundreds and hundreds of clubs. And the better pay.

Cycling is smaller potatoes, but it's similar in that it's not Oxbridge graduates or Little Lord Fauntleroys in Monaco yearning to suffer on two wheels in Belgium in March, but rather, the sons of welders in Bologna and, uh, Belgium.

CunegoFan

03-06-2018, 06:47 AM

It seems this isn't so much a problem with Sky, as it is a problem with the TUE system.

I really hate the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the game." Human nature is human nature, the desire to win makes people push boundaries. Yet, the TUE system provides a giant loop hole that a large peloton can ride through...

Easier to refine/improve the system than expect human nature to change.

The WADA code gives four criteria that must all be true for a TUE to be granted. Wiggins' TUEs did not meet any of the four. Sky used the same doping playbook that has been used since the 80s: Put in a bogus TUE form knowing the UCI will rubber stamp anything. All that is required is a crooked team doctor who will participate in the conspiracy. The MPs report clearly states that the purpose was for performance enhancement. That is a doping violation. The MPs are relying on UKAD to limit the damage by not prosecuting an easily winnable case. Thus we get the bizarre conclusion from the MPs, after laying down everything required for a doping violation, that no violation occurred.

.RJ

03-06-2018, 07:19 AM

Wiggins' TUEs did not meet any of the four.

Doesnt matter, because thats not the opinion of the UCI doctors that granted it, and the rules/procedures outlined by the UCI were followed.

This is all a kangaroo court of public opinion.

Except for Froome, though. I dont see a reasonable explanation coming out of that one.

Tony T

03-06-2018, 07:59 AM

Where is LeMond in all of this?
I would have expected him to remind us that he's the only clean rider that won the TDF.

cmbicycles

03-06-2018, 08:56 AM

Where is LeMond in all of this?
I would have expected him to remind us that he's the only clean rider that won the TDF.
He doesn't need to, you just did it for him. ;)

Kirk007

03-06-2018, 10:40 AM

Doesnt matter, because thats not the opinion of the UCI doctors that granted it, and the rules/procedures outlined by the UCI were followed.

This is all a kangaroo court of public opinion.

I agree. If what Wiggins and Sky did was within the rules/approved by UCI then I don't see what the fuss is all about. In any other sport the coach who pushes the boundaries but stays within in the lines perhaps gets a competitive advantage. Here everyone's wringing their hands once again over behavour that some may call "unsporting" but if no rule was broken then hate the UCI not Wiggins and Sky. NB: I am agnostic towards teams riders so this isn't a Sky/Wiggo fanboy opinon. Perhaps it reflects my training in a "Zealous advocacy trade" - law.

Tony T

03-06-2018, 11:49 AM

Well, since the UCI approved, then it's use was for treating a legitimate medical condition. Without it he would not be on a level playing field with the other riders that did not have a medical condition in need of treatment.

Mark McM

03-06-2018, 12:53 PM

Well, since the UCI approved, then it's use was for treating a legitimate medical condition.

Approval by the UCI does not mean that approval wasn't sought (and therefore obtained) fraudulently. As noted, Wiggins didn't mean the 4 requirements for a TUE - therefore, regardless of whether ICU approved, it was illegitimate.

Here's an example: During the 1999 Tour de France, Lance Armstrong tested positive for corticosteroid, a banned substance, which he had used for performance enhancing purposes. Armstrong's team hastily prepared a TUE application containing fraudulent data, backdated it, and submitted it. The backdated TUE was accepted by the UCI. Was it legitimate?

.RJ

03-06-2018, 12:57 PM

Was it legitimate?

UCI approved it, so yes.

The notion of 'clean sport' is a fantasy. Its entertainment.

Tandem Rider

03-06-2018, 09:39 PM

UCI approved it, so yes.

The notion of 'clean sport' is a fantasy. Its entertainment.

Bingo!! It's NOT sport, it's the entertainment bidness. It's no different than a musician or an actor "enhancing" their abilities with chemistry.

William

03-07-2018, 06:13 AM

Bingo!! It's NOT sport, it's the entertainment bidness. It's no different than a musician or an actor "enhancing" their abilities with chemistry.

I don't disagree, but then drop the pretense and incredulousness ("OMG, I would never..." or "We have cleaned up the sport..." BS) when something comes to light about PED'ing. Otherwise you get the backlash you get.

Just Sayin'

William

cmbicycles

03-07-2018, 08:43 AM

The spectacle is less "epic" without the myth of it being clean.

GregL

03-07-2018, 08:49 AM

Maybe cycling should go the way of powerlifting and bodybuilding: two distinct divisions, open and drug-free. Wonder just how "drug-free" the drug-free divisions of these sports really are...?

Greg

54ny77

03-07-2018, 08:59 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK88-eaDbBA

Maybe cycling should go the way of powerlifting and bodybuilding: two distinct divisions, open and drug-free. Wonder just how "drug-free" the drug-free divisions of these sports really are...?

Greg

Tony T

03-07-2018, 09:31 AM

Approval by the UCI does not mean that approval wasn't sought (and therefore obtained) fraudulently. As noted, Wiggins didn't mean the 4 requirements for a TUE - therefore, regardless of whether ICU approved, it was illegitimate.

Here's an example: During the 1999 Tour de France, Lance Armstrong tested positive for corticosteroid, a banned substance, which he had used for performance enhancing purposes. Armstrong's team hastily prepared a TUE application containing fraudulent data, backdated it, and submitted it. The backdated TUE was accepted by the UCI. Was it legitimate?

ok, so if Wiggins obtained the TUE fraudulently, the fact that the UCI approved it should not be a factor if new information is obtained
(LA passed all Drug Tests, but new information invalidated those tests)

But Wiggins is a nice British guy, so "nothing to see here" :)

Fivethumbs

03-07-2018, 10:59 AM

If an approval is obtained through fraud then it's not legitimate.

hainy

03-08-2018, 06:04 PM

Tyler Hamilton made it pretty clear in his book.

" No drugs, no results"

Tandem Rider

03-08-2018, 08:11 PM

The spectacle is less "epic" without the myth of it being clean.

I think the myth of cleanliness holds up in the USA, pretty sure it's not widely believed in Europe.

pasadena

03-08-2018, 08:23 PM

Maybe cycling should go the way of powerlifting and bodybuilding: two distinct divisions, open and drug-free. Wonder just how "drug-free" the drug-free divisions of these sports really are...?

Greg

There already is a drug free(ish) division. It's called the Womens Pro Tour.

GregL

03-08-2018, 08:39 PM

There already is a drug free(ish) division. It's called the Womens Pro Tour.
"ish" is the key phrase. There's plenty of PEDs in the women's ranks too, just less money to be made.

Greg

.RJ

03-08-2018, 09:00 PM

This has been dredged through the few cycling podcasts I listen to, also.

I've had some more thoughts on it - most of the reporting focuses on the TUE's and sensationalizing kenacort with clickbait headlines.

But have any studies ever been done to quantify the effects on a pro athlete? All we have are anecdotes from pros that tell us how awesome it is, but this is a bunch thats incredibly superstitious and very adverse to change - not exactly a ringing endorsement.

We also dont know, or at least, its not reported, anything about Wiggo's medical history and what's been used before and to what effect. Presumably UK Parliament has this and its what the opinions are based on.

It smells fishy, sure, but it also smells like a kangaroo court. I just wish there were more facts available to base opinions on - WADA allows it out of competition w/o TUE but if it were so powerful, then why?

Burnette

03-08-2018, 09:49 PM

Oh, he doped. That book was already written. What's interesting to me is us fans. Oh how we fret, bend and twist ourselves to try and not believe what we know is true.

(Lance) For surely, they had random tests, the whole country of France hated him winning their tour, the paparazzi in France hounded him, how can you win so many for so many years and nit be caught once, he was the most tested and detested. And yet there it was.

And after seeing him torn asunder the winners after him did just the same. Just the same. Wiggins is no different. Track star that couldn't climb at all came back the next year and won it.

Even before him and the blood doping there were other ways, different techniques but just the same. To give any one of them an out by saying that somehow the rule was unclear or could be interpreted a certain way is to say you accept a clever and lucky thief over one foolish and unlucky.

I do not feel harshly upon anyone who still fights, believes and defends those accused. I just say that they don't deserve your loyalty, your faith and your continued defense of their actions.

adub

03-08-2018, 10:03 PM

It's so weird that we live in a society where we really cant talk truth.

.RJ

03-09-2018, 06:16 AM

Oh how we fret, bend and twist ourselves to try and not believe what we know is true.

Speak for yourself :D

They're playing a different sport. I applaud the efforts to clean it up and make the racing better, but its a game of whack-a-mole. Better than many of the other sports where they just pretend its not a thing.

BdaGhisallo

03-09-2018, 06:33 AM

Speak for yourself :D

They're playing a different sport. I applaud the efforts to clean it up and make the racing better, but its a game of whack-a-mole. Better than many of the other sports where they just pretend its not a thing.

Exactly. Cycling is paying a heavy price for acknowledging that there is a problem and trying to do something about it. Those sports that haven't acknowledged the problem (and that is most of them) don't have this issue, and its attendant opprobrium, dogging them.

Hmmm....

Tony T

03-09-2018, 08:41 AM

Hello, Kettle:
Landis: I can't see Team Sky surviving to the Tour de France
'Wiggins should tell the truth, that the whole anti-doping system is a charade'
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-i-cant-see-team-sky-surviving-to-the-tour-de-france/
Floyd Landis has urged Bradley Wiggins to come forward and "tell the truth" in the wake of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee's report into 'Combating Doping in Sport'. Speaking exclusively to Cyclingnews, Landis said that in his mind Wiggins should lose his 2012 Tour de France win, and the American raised serious doubts as to whether Team Sky would survive until this year's Tour de France.

Mark McM

03-09-2018, 09:47 AM

And in a tangentially related matter:

Pressure piles on Wiggins over tax avoidance scheme (http://www.velonews.com/2018/03/news/road/pressure-piles-wiggins-tax-avoidance-scheme_459053)

From the article:

Wiggins, who was accused of using TUEs to boost performance in a British parliamentary report published on Monday, has strongly denied any wrongdoing.

However, he has now been described as “immoral” by a high profile British MP after it was revealed that he had invested in the Cup Trust charity, which has now been closed down by the authorities.

Margaret Hodge said that Wiggins had shown a “deeply unsavoury trait to his character.” She also called for Wiggins to have his knighthood rescinded and said for him to be titled “Sir” was “inappropriate.”

benb

03-09-2018, 09:49 AM

Amazing they bestow knighthood on anyone for athletic performance.

William

03-09-2018, 09:59 AM

sssssscreech.........squelch.......~A wandering minstral I ~.......scrrrrrr.....Rove dropped name of CIA age…….sphechchc.....Gale force 8….~Gangnam Style!.....BeeeeUuuuuuuu....Your station for blasts from the past!!

“…Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets — this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. So Vive le Tour forever!”

...and now back to your regularly scheduled programming.....

:)
William

Mark McM

03-09-2018, 10:23 AM

Amazing they bestow knighthood on anyone for athletic performance.

Right. I thought that was reserved for pop music stars (like Sir Elton John, or Sir Paul McCartney).

54ny77

03-09-2018, 10:25 AM

Their performances were CLEARLY enhanced by doping.

:p

Right. I thought that was reserved for pop music stars (like Sir Elton John, or Sir Paul McCartney).

bobswire

03-09-2018, 10:40 AM

Right. I thought that was reserved for pop music stars (like Sir Elton John, or Sir Paul McCartney).

Well, it's pretty much used the way the Presidential Medal of Freedom is used here in the Colonies. "An especially meritorious contribution to the security or national interests of the United States, world peace, cultural or other significant public or private endeavors."

BTW Lennon returned his knighthood with this line," "Your Majesty, I am returning this in protest against Britain's involvement in the Nigeria-Biafra thing, against our support of America in Vietnam and against Cold Turkey slipping down the charts. With Love, John Lennon of Bag."

David Bowie turned down Knighthood. “I would never have any intention of accepting anything like that,” he said. “I seriously don't know what it's for. It's not what I spent my life working for.”

As for myself if I was offered Knighthood I would first ask, can I sell it and is it transferable and would I need to joust. :rolleyes:

benb

03-09-2018, 10:40 AM

Right. I thought that was reserved for pop music stars (like Sir Elton John, or Sir Paul McCartney).

Yah apparently Knighthood went off the rails a long time ago.

I know it helps feed the celebrity magazines but I'm glad we don't do this in the US.

bobswire

03-09-2018, 10:44 AM

Yah apparently Knighthood went off the rails a long time ago.

I know it helps feed the celebrity magazines but I'm glad we don't do this in the US.

Oh, but we do, see above (Presidential Medal of Freedom).

.RJ

03-09-2018, 10:49 AM

As for myself if I was offered Knighthood I would first ask, can I sell it and is it transferable and would I need to joust. :rolleyes:

Help, help, I'm being oppressed.

ripvanrando

03-09-2018, 12:10 PM

Amazing they bestow knighthood on anyone for athletic performance.

Nick Faldo....but golf is just a game.

Burnette

03-09-2018, 07:02 PM