ripping off other builders styles, or, am I over reacting?

[bicycletricycle]

I know that Firefly didn't invent anodizing and they are not the first manufacturer to ano. ti frames, however, other brands blatantly copying the style of Firefly's ano. style is really disappointing to me.

Does this bother any one else?

[FlashUNC]

Wasn't it Picasso who said art is theft?

[joosttx]

Wasn't it Picasso who said art is theft?

I think it was Dali. He said something like all art is plagerism.

[bicycletricycle]

Wasn't it Picasso who said art is theft?

You got to add to it though. I am not saying it is technically "wrong" in some way, just seems a little dishonest to me. Certainly makes those brands less appealing to me.

[Tickdoc]

I think it was Dali. He said something like all art is plagerism.

speaking of those two, anyone happen to read staart's article on the left bank in this month's Peloton?

[FlashUNC]

Taking a technique someone else uses and doing your own thing with it isn't that big of a transgression I think.

I don't think anyone will confuse a Moots with a Firefly anytime soon.

[eBAUMANN]

I get the sentiment...but if we apply this ethic to say, paint, instead...it gets a little hard to find anything original these days.

Ive always thought a grayscale/raw finish NAHBS would be pretty interesting for this reason...as every year just feels more and more like a paint competition.

[pasadena]

Niche drama

No22 does this type of finish, don't they?

I remember Firefly back in 2012 was starting to do this but I remember seeing it elsewhere too.

[happycampyer]

Another saying is, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The fact that none of the other builders do it as well says something. The Moots anodizing is a mess. I like the anodizing on some of the No. 22 bikes, but the graphics seem more formulaic, in a Baum sort of way. When is comes to graphic design, the guys from Firefly are (still) in a league of their own, imo.

[sparky33]

I think it was Dali. He said something like all art is plagerism.

...Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Though I still don't think anyone else shows as much artistry in ano as Firefly does:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4567/38435988062_f84fb73dfc_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21ysuam)FF-701-Studio-11 (https://flic.kr/p/21ysuam) by Firefly Bicycles (https://www.flickr.com/photos/fireflybicycles/), on Flickr

[bicycletricycle]

I get the sentiment...but if we apply this ethic to say, paint, instead...it gets a little hard to find anything original these days.

Ive always thought a grayscale/raw finish NAHBS would be pretty interesting for this reason...as every year just feels more and more like a paint competition.

Certainly making a blue bicycle does not mean you are ripping off all the other blue bicycles, many paint details (panels, pin stripping, fades, etc) have been used so much that they are public property.

However

If someone made a frame with RS lugs and then painted it in the same red and white with a logo made to look exactly like the RS one it would be over the line for me, even if it was a "tribute" or whatever.

Imagine if someone showed up with all the same exact fades that fat chance launched last year, flattery or not, just seems like a crap move.

[sparky33]

.

[David Kirk]

The movie "Moonstruck" is one of my favorites. There are many lines of that movie that stick with me and one of my favorites is "Don't poop where you eat."

It's a small world and when people don't come up with their own ideas and merely co-opt the work of others it will come back on them.

Karma is a bitch.



dave

[charliedid]

Well before Firefly their was Leni Fried (Mike Augspurgers wife) doing it in the early 1990's

Curious who you think is "ripping off" Firefly? No22 maybe?

This is just silly

[pbarry]

Afaik, it was Mike Augsberger, a founder of Merlin, who built the first anodized Ti bikes at One Off Titanium, with Leni Fried doing the anodization, over 25 years ago.

Not unlike music or art, many riff on what has come before. Paint and finishes are the most easily appropriated elements on a bike.

[Jaybee]

So how much is customer driven? If you are a ti bike maker and someone asks you to anodize the logo should you just refer them to Firefly and forfeit the sale?

[pbarry]

Great minds think alike Charlie! :beer:

[FlashUNC]

Certainly making a blue bicycle does not mean you are ripping off all the other blue bicycles, many paint details (panels, pin stripping, fades, etc) have been used so much that they are public property.

However

If someone made a frame with RS lugs and then painted it in the same red and white with a logo made to look exactly like the RS one it would be over the line for me, even if it was a "tribute" or whatever.

Imagine if someone showed up with all the same exact fades that fat chance launched last year, flattery or not, just seems like a crap move.

To quote Slick Rick, you're sick of all these crab rappers, bitin' their rhymes because they're back stabbers.

Ano on ti ain't really that big of a deal. Especially, as others have noted, Firefly is just doing it so much better than everyone else.

[dbnm]

I don't know about ripping off, but Moots's attempt at ano is rather disappointing. I love their bikes and love my Moots Vamoots RSL but the stuff they were showing at NAHBS was not very good.

[earlfoss]

Some of the new MOOTS ano work looks like a pretty blatant "me too" effort in the style of Firefly. That's ok with me. I still like MOOTS above Firefly.

[charliedid]

Great minds think alike Charlie! :beer:

You would know better than I ;-)

[charliedid]

What about panels or fades or use of chrome or orange bikes

On and on and on

[Blown Reek]

Unless it's a GT Zaskar in anodized purple, it's lame. Early 90s hotness über alles.

http://fstatic3.mtb-news.de/f/08/no/08no8v306tna/large_ibc.JPG?0

[sparky33]

What about panels or fades or use of chrome or orange bikes

On and on and on

I've typed all of those^ letters® before, go find your own original alphabet.

[David Tollefson]

I love Rob English's work with the gossamer tubes in the rear triangle. I've emulated some of those elements in my own builds, but no one would mistake my frames for an English. And I wouldn't want them to. One of my highlights was meeting Rob in Portland at my second showing there (Oregon Handmade Bike and Beer Festival).

[charliedid]

Certainly making a blue bicycle does not mean you are ripping off all the other blue bicycles, many paint details (panels, pin stripping, fades, etc) have been used so much that they are public property.

However

If someone made a frame with RS lugs and then painted it in the same red and white with a logo made to look exactly like the RS one it would be over the line for me, even if it was a "tribute" or whatever.

Imagine if someone showed up with all the same exact fades that fat chance launched last year, flattery or not, just seems like a crap move.

Just saw this.....after my last response.

I agree with the RS and Fat examples to some degree. That said come clean and tell us which current company is doing the ripping off.

I gotta know so I can warn them!

[kingpin75s]

Yep. Leni Fried, Mike Augsberger and One Off have been mentioned so context is sorted on the originality part.

Firefly has done a nice job of bringing this trend back and appropriate as a Boston based builder. There were some cool Fat Chance frames done by Leni back in the day as well.

Ti has been making a comeback again and others are trying to add some flash to what has traditionally been an understated frame material. No concerns on copping style by me as it had ben done long before and it certainly is no Budnitz deal.

[pasadena]

I've typed all of those^ letters® before, go find your own original alphabet.

well played sir

[misterha]

Some of the new MOOTS ano work looks like a pretty blatant "me too" effort in the style of Firefly. That's ok with me. I still like MOOTS above Firefly.

how come? not trying to start an argument just want your perspective.

[misterha]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vCY876FGefQ/UQOnMc-P20I/AAAAAAAAHAs/osISNLISCuw/s1600/copy-of-a-copy.gif

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Some of the new MOOTS ano work looks like a pretty blatant "me too" effort in the style of Firefly. That's ok with me. I still like MOOTS above Firefly.

What makes Moots, Moots is more of what's underneath the anno/paint/brushing. At least imho.

[earlfoss]

how come? not trying to start an argument just want your perspective.

No problem at all! 3 years ago I was in the market for a really nice, brand new ti bike. I called around to a few builders to discuss, and Firefly was one of those companies.

All I had to get was a good vibe and they would've had my money. The person on the phone came off like he way better things to do than talk with me for 5 min about a bike that I'd have placed an order for right away. At that point they got crossed off my list now and forever.

[fignon's barber]

I wouldn't call it "ripping off". More like fashion of the day. Someone sets a fashion trend. Then it becomes a trend when others follow. I don't feel sorry for Firefly, they seems to be making a good premium as trend setters.

[earlfoss]

What makes Moots, Moots is more of what's underneath the anno/paint/brushing. At least imho.

I agree with you 100% on that. It's what will keep MOOTS in business long after many of the others close their doors.

[ghammer]

I disagree. Because by mentioning Firefly, you acknowledge they were first with this. Besides, they have not patented this technique, so whomever came behind them will be using their style, thus paying homage to the original supercool builder.

You got to add to it though. I am not saying it is technically "wrong" in some way, just seems a little dishonest to me. Certainly makes those brands less appealing to me.

[CMiller]

what about panels or fades or use of chrome or orange bikes

on and on and on

+1

[charliedid]

I've typed all of those^ letters® before, go find your own original alphabet.

I'm never as original as I think I am.

[Kirk007]

Interesting question. If I went to a builder seeking a lugged steel frame with Pego-Richie tubing and I wanted it red with white panels and yellow and black highlights, you know like the old style Sachs that was here for years and then gone overnight, would I be asking the builder/painter to inappropriately "copy" a look that only Sachs was entitled to use (even though it had been abandoned)? How many orange bikes are out there that copy the Molteni paint or Gulf or ....

And if a builder/painter looks at a Peg Ciavete and decides that they want to emulate that style, is that wrong? Now they may not be able to do it as well, and may suffer in the market place - I think that's a bigger risk than being called out as a copycat.

So, I guess I don't care if a builder picks up on a look that another has used. If I like it I like it, if not I don't.

[El Chaba]

Some years ago, I mentioned on the precursor of this forum that Richard Sachs' bikes really paid tribute to DeRosa in my mind. Mr. Sachs related a story that early in his career he was exhibiting at the New York Bike Show. Ugo DeRosa was there as well. Through a translator, Mr. DeRosa told Mr. Sachs that he copied his bikes well....Later he explained what could have been interpreted as faint praise by telling that years before Faliero Masi had paid him the same "compliment"....

[charliedid]

Some years ago, I mentioned on the precursor of this forum that Richard Sachs' bikes really paid tribute to DeRosa in my mind. Mr. Sachs related a story that early in his career he was exhibiting at the New York Bike Show. Ugo DeRosa was there as well. Through a translator, Mr. DeRosa told Mr. Sachs that he copied his bikes well....Later he explained what could have been interpreted as faint praise by telling that years before Faliero Masi had paid him the same "compliment"....

ding ding ding ^

[djg21]

I know that Firefly didn't invent anodizing and they are not the first manufacturer to ano. ti frames, however, other brands blatantly copying the style of Firefly's ano. style is really disappointing to me.

Does this bother any one else?

It really bothers me that Firefly, Moots, and No. 22 all are ripping off Vitus, which anodized the aluminum tubes on its frames decades ago. Not really. The anodization process is hardly proprietary.

[DRZRM]

Yeah, I get that FF is known for their technique, but I personally don't feel like other folks who are doing it are ripping them off. My BFF had a Ti Wicked Fat a million years ago that was ano, just like the pic below (in fact that really looks like his bike, are those Brooklyn Machine Works milled V-brakes?). Everyone paints steel, but they are not ripping off Joe Bell (or whoever you think is best known for painting). Ano on ti is a no brainer, durable, adds no weight, I'm surprised FF is so far ahead of the game...and I say this as the proud owner of a beautiful anodized FF.

[teleguy57]

I had Lenni Fried anodize a ti frame I had quite a while back. I sold it, and now this thread reminded me to look for a photo somewhere. Haven't found it yet.

My Hampsten ti Gran Paradiso is about as simple as can be graphically. Steve's brushed finish, white graphics. I like the clean look of ti and Steve is the epitome of simple design. Now I do drool over many of the Spectrum paint w/ti -- but I wouldn't ask Steve to mimic that.

As to ripping off, meh. I don't think framebuilders benefit much from making their bikes look like something someone else has done. I am a fan of the tributes to days of yore in graphics etc. Some would probably label this a ripoff, to me, it raises a smile.

http://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwm4ucw0Sa1qaopbco1_500.jpg

[Blown Reek]

It really bothers me that Firefly, Moots, and No. 22 all are ripping off Vitus, which anodized the aluminum tubes on its frames decades ago. Not really.

But Vitus was aluminum, while the above mentioned builders are titanium. Completely different.

[djg21]

It’s still anodization. It’s nothing new.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pbarry]

But Vitus was aluminum, while the above mentioned builders are titanium. Completely different.

The Vitus reference was tongue in cheek. ;)
Is Daylight Savings Time getting close? Everyone needs to go for a ride, me included..

[OtayBW]

The movie "Moonstruck" is one of my favorites. There are many lines of that movie that stick with me and one of my favorites is "Don't poop where you eat."

It's a small world and when people don't come up with their own ideas and merely co-opt the work of others it will come back on them.

Karma is a bitch.Normally, I would agree with you, but in this case, I wonder if it's not like the 'normalization of alternative facts'. You repeat the thing so many times that the original meaning gets lost in lieu of the alternate....

[bicycletricycle]

I don't think there are rules here.

Some things I think about some of the themes so far-

1. There is nothing new, its all copies of copies, etc. including all the examples of Ti frames that had ano before this (fat chance, even diamond back made a run of rainbow ti frames, etc.) is true but I think that we can all agree that firefly has spent a lot of creative capitol resurrecting and refining this. In no way do I believe that makes them owners of it, just curious about how you guys felt about other brands adopting it. It seems that most people here think it is fine which is a bit of a bummer, oh well.

2. If the customer wants it then are the supposed to just loose the sale? I would say that it is short sided to cave to a customer that wants you to copy a competitors style. The most successful builders make an effort to cultivate a unique style IMHO, if you do whatever your customers want you will be known for nothing and be able to demand very little money for your time.

3. All the "no such thing as originality" sentiments, well, I would suggest that no one really believes this even though it is easy to make a surface level argument for it. Does everyone have influences? Yes. Does that mean that the way they mix those influences together with their own experience and experimentation is meaningless because you can point to someone having done something similar one time? I consider this sentiment idiotic and actually a form of nihilism.

4. Firefly was a trend setter, imitation is flattery, etc. Sure, I just don't have a lot of respect for people in such a small world clearly copying elements for short term gain.


Obviously no "rules" are being broken, Obviously this is a nuanced thing and what is "copying" to one person is "influenced by" for another, obviously I cannot tell a company that they should lose sales rather than make changes to their product line like this, Obviously firefly is not doing something entirely "new" here, obviously I am sensitive to this because of my own creative profession.

[bicycletricycle]

Moonstruck is one of the best movies ever made, I never run into fans of that movie. I may have to order one of you fine bicycles and have some funny moonstruck quotes painted on the inside of the stays or something.

Give me the big knife!
Why do you make me wait, howl at the moon!
I put a curse on that plane
what you don't know about women is a lot
It's Johnny Cammareri!

Loretta, I love you. Not like they told you love is, and I didn't know this either, but love don't make things nice - it ruins everything. It breaks your heart. It makes things a mess. We aren't here to make things perfect. The snowflakes are perfect. The stars are perfect. Not us. Not us! We are here to ruin ourselves and to break our hearts and love the wrong people and *die*. The storybooks are *bull*****. Now I want you to come upstairs with me and *get* in my bed!

etc.



The movie "Moonstruck" is one of my favorites. There are many lines of that movie that stick with me and one of my favorites is "Don't poop where you eat."

It's a small world and when people don't come up with their own ideas and merely co-opt the work of others it will come back on them.

Karma is a bitch.



dave

[cgolvin]

Moonstruck is one of the best movies ever made

While I wouldn't go that far, I do like it, and would have expected this one on your list:

In time you'll drop dead and I'll come to your funeral in a red dress!

[Kontact]

I pulled up images of Moots, No 22 and Firefly. I honestly don't think the three look that much alike. If Firefly wasn't the first to anodize a Ti frame, and Ti bikes weren't the first one to have an anodized colored finish, I'm not seeing the conflict.

It is a lot like complaining that Campy shouldn't have copied STI.



I wish someone would bring back the laser cut graphics of the Merlin Cyrene. Unlike anodizing, it doesn't just sit on the surface to get rubbed off the first time you want to touch up scratches.

[vav]

Does this bother any one else?

Nope. I actually wouldn't mind one of these.

http://blackmtncycles.com/wpblackmtn/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC00623-450x300.jpg

[cadence90]

.... ..

[Pegoready]

Nope. I actually wouldn't mind one of these.

http://blackmtncycles.com/wpblackmtn/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC00623-450x300.jpg

I think that is different. That is a direct homage to the Merckx bikes. Mike would tell you that. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek.

On the other hand, I am sure the Moots or No. 22 folks would play dumb if you suggested their ano is in any way related to Firefly.

As far as I'm concerned Firefly owns anodizing Ti. Yes, others have done it, but Firefly went all-in and really rules the aesthetic. I agree with the OP that it's bothersome that other builders are swooping in and copying.

[bicycletricycle]

Arguably they didn’t completely copy STI, they obviously did in some major ways. I think they would have gone out of business without matching the functionality of STI in some way. You could say that they actually made a much better version of STI, certainly it was different.

Many of these things could be said fairly about no.22 , it is not exactly the same as firefly.

I think there is a difference here perhaps. When new technologies come around companies have to adopt them to stay relivent in the high volume end of the market.

I think purely aesthetic matters can be judged differently.

I pulled up images of Moots, No 22 and Firefly. I honestly don't think the three look that much alike. If Firefly wasn't the first to anodize a Ti frame, and Ti bikes weren't the first one to have an anodized colored finish, I'm not seeing the conflict.

It is a lot like complaining that Campy shouldn't have copied STI.



I wish someone would bring back the laser cut graphics of the Merlin Cyrene. Unlike anodizing, it doesn't just sit on the surface to get rubbed off the first time you want to touch up scratches.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Moonstruck is one of the best movies ever made, I never run into fans of that movie. I may have to order one of you fine bicycles and have some funny moonstruck quotes painted on the inside of the stays or something.

Give me the big knife!
Why do you make me wait, howl at the moon!
I put a curse on that plane
what you don't know about women is a lot
It's Johnny Cammareri!

Loretta, I love you. Not like they told you love is, and I didn't know this either, but love don't make things nice - it ruins everything. It breaks your heart. It makes things a mess. We aren't here to make things perfect. The snowflakes are perfect. The stars are perfect. Not us. Not us! We are here to ruin ourselves and to break our hearts and love the wrong people and *die*. The storybooks are *bull*****. Now I want you to come upstairs with me and *get* in my bed!

etc.

"I ain't no freakin' monument to justice! I lost my hand! I lost my bride! Johnny has his hand! Johnny has his bride!"

Written, without hearing the thickest of thick accents does not do quotes from that movie justice. Not by a longshot. THE greatest movie ever made? Not sure about that, but I'd say one of the greatest. It is one of those movies, like Goodfellas, most Bond movies, The Princess Bride, Space Balls, The Godfather (one and two) etc. that you can watch over and over, and from any point in the movie. What were we talking about again?

[bicycletricycle]

Take a quick look at any of the interiors he designed and you will quickly find adolf a laughable character, they are nice but in no way free of ornament (I think you may be a bigger fan of good old dieter rams and his 10 rules). Ornament and crime is an ok read though if understood in context. On a side note, he does think ornament is okay in handmade items because it keeps the craftsmen happy which would seem to apply here.

Modernism is the aesthetic of the factory made goods.


How strange. When I was in grad school I lived on the mansard floor of the "Moonstruck House" (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/nyregion/31moonstruck.html) for one year.

http://designerscollaborativenyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/19-Cranberry-Street-the-house-Cher-lived-in-in-Moostruck.jpg

Loved the people, loved the house, hated the movie.

As far as quotes regarding most of the paint/anodizing I see from NAHBS I'll go with the architect Adolf Loos: "Ornament is crime."
.

[bicycletricycle]

We were talking about the hunt for the red october, the actual best movie ever :)

"I ain't no freakin' monument to justice! I lost my hand! I lost my bride! Johnny has his hand! Johnny has his bride!"

Written, without hearing the thickest of thick accents does not do quotes from that movie justice. Not by a longshot. THE greatest movie ever made? Not sure about that, I'd say one of the greatest. It is one of those movies, like Goodfellas, most Bond movies, The Princess Bride, The Godfather (one and two) etc. that you can watch over and over, and from any point in the movie. What were we talking about again?

[MattTuck]

interesting points.

At a functional level, the aesthetic of a bike is pretty superficial and unlikely to impact how good of a bike it is.

On the other hand, people are usually not buying bikes just for them to be a bike. They are buying the aesthetic, they are buying the brand, they're buying an experience. So, from that perspective I do find that copying an aesthetic is a little bush league in the small community of bicycle builders.

I'd be more offended if someone ripped off Dave Kirk's seat stay design, personally -- as that is more functional.

The counterpoint to this is simply this is how innovation works. People introduce new products into the market, and the market decides what is good, and the useful/desired innovations disperse. There are patents available to inventors for novel, useful and non-obvious innovations...

[bicycletricycle]

Nope. I actually wouldn't mind one of these.

http://blackmtncycles.com/wpblackmtn/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC00623-450x300.jpg

Well, some people just don’t care about these things, that’s fine with me. You might feel different if you spent untold hours developing something yourself. On the other hand, maybe you wouldn’t , perhaps you would admire the people who ride your coat tails and profit from your hard work because of their ruthless business sense or something. I can get behind that.

[Kontact]

Arguably they didn’t completely copy STI, they obviously did in some major ways. I think they would have gone out of business without matching the functionality of STI in some way. You could say that they actually made a much better version of STI, certainly it was different.

Many of these things could be said fairly about no.22 , it is not exactly the same as firefly.

I think there is a difference here perhaps. When new technologies come around companies have to adopt them to stay relivent in the high volume end of the market.

I think purely aesthetic matters can be judged differently.

So what amount of not exactly the same are you willing to accept for aesthetics?

Part of the point of titanium bicycles is that you leave them unpainted forever, so people are not crazy about painting them. If you leave them bare, and it is impractical to construct them them out of lugs, you really only have etching, polishing or anodizing as your available finishing techniques. Since all Ti companies use the first two liberally, just how different does a new anodizer have to be to be acceptably different than Firefly?

[cadence90]

.... ..

[bicycletricycle]

excellent question , hard to say really, I guess that is why I brought it up here, because I was curious about what other people thought and in the end it is really just a judgement call for consumers and makers.

In my expert opinion (read sarcastically please) I would say that the moots version is OK and the No.22 is over the line. No science here, just my opinion.

So what amount of not exactly the same are you willing to accept for aesthetics?

Part of the point of titanium bicycles is that you leave them unpainted forever, so people are not crazy about painting them. If you leave them bare, and it is impractical to construct them them out of lugs, you really only have etching, polishing or anodizing as your available finishing techniques. Since all Ti companies use the first two liberally, just how different does a new anodizer have to be to be acceptably different than Firefly?

[bicycletricycle]

You got something against frivolity? you must b great at parties :)

Seriously though, pretending that austere performance statistics are the main motivations for purchases in almost any field is a bit naive. They are building bicycles for people who are obsessed with bicycles, what is wrong with a little fun?


Of course to most of that.

But I was applying his title to the majority of recent painted/ano'd NAHBS bicycles, in which case, finally and after all these years, his title would be 100% correct and true. The craftsmen can find happiness in something other than pure frivolity, I hope.
;)
.

[e-RICHIE]

As far as quotes regarding most of the paint/anodizing I see from NAHBS I'll go with the architect Adolf Loos: "Ornament is crime."
.



Love it ^ .







.

[72gmc]

We were talking about the hunt for the red october, the actual best movie ever :)

That's the one where the Soviet captain escapes after years of clandestine tunneling through his cell wall with a rock hammer?

[GonaSovereign]

Chris Chance started Fat Chance. He and Gary Helfrich talked up ti, which Gary made at Merlin with Mike Augsberger, who left to form One-Off where they were anodizing ti frames. Then Fat Chance was making ti and some people left the company to form Indie Fab, where they built ti bikes, and some people left there to start Firefly where they built ti and anodized some of them. And those Indie Fab people left Fat Chance because they didn't want to move in with Serotta, which was making ti. That arrangement fell apart and later so did Serotta, from which people jumped to form Saratoga where they made ti, but it too quickly went away, but that's OK because the Serotta/Saratoga guys jumped on board at No22, where they make ti and anodize some of it.

There are more parts to the story, with more ti and anodizing.

[charliedid]

Of course to most of that.

But I was applying his title to the majority of recent painted/ano'd NAHBS bicycles, in which case, finally and after all these years, his title would be 100% correct and true. The craftsmen can find happiness in something other than pure frivolity, I hope.
;)
.

May I see a photo of your Pegoretti please? ;-)

[e-RICHIE]

Chris Chance started Fat Chance. He and Gary Helfrich talked up ti, which Gary made at Merlin with Mike Augsberger, who left to form One-Off where they were anodizing ti frames. Then Fat Chance was making ti and some people left the company to form Indie Fab, where they built ti bikes, and some people left there to start Firefly where they built ti and anodized some of them. And those Indie Fab people left Fat Chance because they didn't want to move in with Serotta, which was making ti. That arrangement fell apart and later so did Serotta, from which people jumped to form Saratoga where they made ti, but it too quickly went away, but that's OK because the Serotta/Saratoga guys jumped on board at No22, where they make ti and anodize some of it.

There are more parts to the story, with more ti and anodizing.

I gave Chris his first job in the trade. We (Peter and I) in essence, trained him.

[bfd]

Chris Chance started Fat Chance. He and Gary Helfrich talked up ti, which Gary made at Merlin with Mike Augsberger, who left to form One-Off where they were anodizing ti frames. Then Fat Chance was making ti and some people left the company to form Indie Fab, where they built ti bikes, and some people left there to start Firefly where they built ti and anodized some of them. And those Indie Fab people left Fat Chance because they didn't want to move in with Serotta, which was making ti. That arrangement fell apart and later so did Serotta, from which people jumped to form Saratoga where they made ti, but it too quickly went away, but that's OK because the Serotta/Saratoga guys jumped on board at No22, where they make ti and anodize some of it.

There are more parts to the story, with more ti and anodizing.

If you're talking New England framebuilders, there's this chart:

http://www.anglesandpoise.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/new_england_bicycle_bloodline_-2012_600_05.jpg

[David Kirk]

Like -

dave


Moonstruck is one of the best movies ever made, I never run into fans of that movie. I may have to order one of you fine bicycles and have some funny moonstruck quotes painted on the inside of the stays or something.

Give me the big knife!
Why do you make me wait, howl at the moon!
I put a curse on that plane
what you don't know about women is a lot
It's Johnny Cammareri!

Loretta, I love you. Not like they told you love is, and I didn't know this either, but love don't make things nice - it ruins everything. It breaks your heart. It makes things a mess. We aren't here to make things perfect. The snowflakes are perfect. The stars are perfect. Not us. Not us! We are here to ruin ourselves and to break our hearts and love the wrong people and *die*. The storybooks are *bull*****. Now I want you to come upstairs with me and *get* in my bed!

etc.

[Burnette]

OP, you lost me at "finish". Anodizing and even paint schemes are surely what catches the eye first but they both are touches on themes and not the whole of the product.

And if you think about it any bike maker would surely want to be known for more than the simple garnish they put on the plate of food they slaved over.

Nate Zukas' frames look organic with spouts for cables to exit that look like they grew there.

Rob English pushes steel to the extreme with oval tube shapes, impossibly thin seat stays and deeply sloped top tubes.

David Kirk offers lugged and brazed frames with unique stays or standard in steel painted or stainless steel and the years of experience shows through the most, in the raw, before paint.

Eric Estlund can build expedition grade bikes, so much detail with custom racks and sweet steel forks.

Jeff Jones' makes spaceframes with a truss fork and handlebars with numerous grip points.

Firefly took the titanium premium bike model and took it somewhere else by making purpose built bikes, be it for touring, Cyclocross, gravel/fire roads, mountain biking. You can get 650b, racks, road carbon/ti frames, mono suspension fork, fat bike... their play list is expansive. Much more than just anodizing.

What I'm saying is that stickers, paint and anodizing does not a brand make and you really should look deeper, for what all these guys are doing is more than skin deep.

I encourage you to be more of a connoisseur. That way, if someone happens to anodize or paint a bike in similar fashion as those builders above, you would know the difference of copying a finish style versus copying a brand philosophy.

[m4rk540]

This is not a conversation for a graduate level art theory seminar but a B school case study.

It's business, man.

[buddybikes]

My FF 257 - rose in memory of my mother
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fireflybicycles/10074417455/in/album-72157636160361504/[/IMG]

[weisan]

life is hard enough with the big companies taking the majority market share and leaving the scraps for the little guys to fight over, I can never understand why make life even harder.

We have a tendency to eat our young, and go after the weak and those who are resource poor because they are low-hanging fruit and the big guys? ...are quite frankly untouchable and have greater firepower under their disposal. You can't win.

The little guys got to figure out a more equitable and better way to band together and share learning, knowledge, resources...quite simply just to survive. If we do that, we can ensure that everyone not only have a better chance to survive and make a decent living but dare I say, even flourish and get some personal satisfaction out of it. There are more than enough to go around, why is this so hard to do?

We are our greatest enemy.

[bironi]

So what amount of not exactly the same are you willing to accept for aesthetics?

Part of the point of titanium bicycles is that you leave them unpainted forever, so people are not crazy about painting them. If you leave them bare, and it is impractical to construct them them out of lugs, you really only have etching, polishing or anodizing as your available finishing techniques. Since all Ti companies use the first two liberally, just how different does a new anodizer have to be to be acceptably different than Firefly?

I'd dispute the part of the point of a ti bike is.............

I find bare ti rather boring, a bit like Navy grey. A good powder coat can last for a few decades with care. It's an option I went for without regret.

[bicycletricycle]

I don’t think you should make assumptions about my level of “connoisseur”. I made no assumptions about yours, it is rude.

I do not think you should underestimate the value of aesthetics, they are no easier to get right than functional improvements. I know that many people do not appreciate this but it is true. Perhaps it is ultimately even a little harder because no measurement is available for success other than the market. A lighter stiffer bike can be proven to be so, a better looking bike is impossible to measure but to assume that we do not care about such things is laughable.

Many of the advancements you list below for builders are just aesthetics or function for most consumers on the aesthetic level. Super sculpted lugs, perfectly filed fillets, sloped top tubes, internal routing, “details”, custom racks. For me this is no slight, an object is rarely based purely on function, why should it be?



OP, you lost me at "finish". Anodizing and even paint schemes are surely what catches the eye first but they both are touches on themes and not the whole of the product.

And if you think about it any bike maker would surely want to be known for more than the simple garnish they put on the plate of food they slaved over.

Nate Zukas' frames look organic with spouts for cables to exit that look like they grew there.

Rob English pushes steel to the extreme with oval tube shapes, impossibly thin seat stays and deeply sloped top tubes.

David Kirk offers lugged and brazed frames with unique stays or standard in steel painted or stainless steel and the years of experience shows through the most, in the raw, before paint.

Eric Estlund can build expedition grade bikes, so much detail with custom racks and sweet steel forks.

Jeff Jones' makes spaceframes with a truss fork and handlebars with numerous grip points.

Firefly took the titanium premium bike model and took it somewhere else by making purpose built bikes, be it for touring, Cyclocross, gravel/fire roads, mountain biking. You can get 650b, racks, road carbon/ti frames, mono suspension fork, fat bike... their play list is expansive. Much more than just anodizing.

What I'm saying is that stickers, paint and anodizing does not a brand make and you really should look deeper, for what all these guys are doing is more than skin deep.

I encourage you to be more of a connoisseur. That way, if someone happens to anodize or paint a bike in similar fashion as those builders above, you would know the difference of copying a finish style versus copying a brand philosophy.

[bicycletricycle]

Why did you have house freshin up your graphics? I really like the new style but cannot see the functional benefit of them, are they not ornament?



Love it ^ .







.

[bicycletricycle]

I don’t see critique as tearing people down, without critique improvement is extremely difficult.


life is hard enough with the big companies taking the majority market share and leaving the scraps for the little guys to fight over, I can never understand why make life even harder.

We have a tendency to eat our young, and go after the weak and those who are resource poor because they are low-hanging fruit and the big guys? ...are quite frankly untouchable and have greater firepower under their disposal. You can't win.

The little guys got to figure out a more equitable and better way to band together and share learning, knowledge, resources...quite simply just to survive. If we do that, we can ensure that everyone not only have a better chance to survive and make a decent living but dare I say, even flourish and get some personal satisfaction out of it. There are more than enough to go around, why is this so hard to do?

We are our greatest enemy.

[joosttx]

I think FF really embraced anodizing ti frames and made it part of their brand. Secondly, they took anodizing to another level and really pushed the medium when no one else was even doing it- Moots was experimenting with black logos, Mosaic was etching. For Moots to come in with colored anodized logos, well, I see it as directly inspired by FF. Sadly, it is a step back from what FF is doing. The colors are not as crisp, the creativity and precision are not as good as FF.

So what it is doing is not moving the medium forward but diluting it. Also, I think it hurts Moots as it makes them look like a knock-off FF which they certainly are not but it gives the appearance.

FF doesnt own the anodizing game but they made it pretty hard for another company to match their artistry.

[e-RICHIE]

Why did you have house freshin up your graphics? I really like the new style but cannot see the functional benefit of them, are they not ornament?


http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2013/09/05/my-red-house-2/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2013/09/12/my-new-house/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2014/08/20/house-industries-richard-sachs/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2014/08/27/house-industries-for-richard-sachs-cyclocross/

[wc1934]

Afaik, it was Mike Augsberger, a founder of Merlin, who built the first anodized Ti bikes at One Off Titanium, with Leni Fried doing the anodization, over 25 years ago.

Not unlike music or art, many riff on what has come before. Paint and finishes are the most easily appropriated elements on a bike.

Didnt Evans work at Merlin? Of course much later.

[charliedid]

One of the things that really strikes about all this talk of Firefly's being knocked off is...what exactly is a "Firefly" stylistically?

They are truly doing one off (pun intended) custom bikes and styling and generally no two are exactly alike beyond some very basic bikes. To use the No22 example that I had correctly assumed you (OP) were referring, they have settled into a signature look with anodizing their logo and matching fork to stem combo. I'm sure they have done some but I don't see the same examples of customized bikes and artistically custom/stylized graphics that I see from Firefly. The similarities are clearly there but the differences are greater IMO

Am I wrong?

[cadence90]

.... ..

[joosttx]

One of the things that really strikes about all this talk of Firefly's being knocked off is...what exactly is a "Firefly" stylistically?

They are truly doing one off (pun intended) custom bikes and styling and generally no two are exactly alike beyond some very basic bikes. To use the No22 example that I had correctly assumed you (OP) were referring, they have settled into a signature look with anodizing their logo and matching fork to stem combo. I'm sure they have done some but I don't see the same examples of customized bikes and artistically custom/stylized graphics that I see from Firefly. The similarities are clearly there but the differences are greater IMO

Am I wrong?

I agree , they are different enough to be different IMO.

[charliedid]

I was seriously fun at frivolous parties, back when I seriously drank even frivolous drinks....;)

Depends on the purchaser I guess. Some people like John Pawson houses, others don't.


It is??? I thought "The Hunt For Red October" was the one about the Soviet captain who from afar falls in love with the sultry Cher, and so defects, undergoing extreme hardship, etc., etc., only to find Nic Cage at the clandestine meet. The Soviet captain, naturally very wary, proceeds to knock the s%^&-eating grin off of Nic Cage's face, and so all ends happily ever after. Different movie?


That is a fantastic chart. Thanks for posting that.


The intersection/overlap of art and business has been and will always be a vast topic in both venues, especially since neither one discriminates when it come to the $$$....


Ha ha, touché! My Marcelo is a deep, dark blue with orange "Nails" scheme. Pretty sedate as it is, but still much too frivolous and exuberant for me ;) so I am having the orange "Nails" exorcised and re-painted to the far more serious green-grey of the Laguna di Venezia, my hometown. :)

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r654/traghetter/pegoretti_marcelo_03a_arancio_piccola_zpsw2nxkyhz. jpg (http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/traghetter/media/pegoretti_marcelo_03a_arancio_piccola_zpsw2nxkyhz. jpg.html)

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r654/traghetter/pegoretti_marcelo_03b_verde_piccola_zps7jh0bcoj.jp g (http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/traghetter/media/pegoretti_marcelo_03b_verde_piccola_zps7jh0bcoj.jp g.html)
.

:banana:

[Kontact]

I'd dispute the part of the point of a ti bike is.............

I find bare ti rather boring, a bit like Navy grey. A good powder coat can last for a few decades with care. It's an option I went for without regret.

Dispute it all you like. Would you say 98% of ti bikes are unpainted, or 99%?


And I say that as the proud owner of a painted Ti bike - blue faded into clear.

[bironi]

Dispute it all you like. Would you say 98% of ti bikes are unpainted, or 99%?


And I say that as the proud owner of a painted Ti bike - blue faded into clear.

No dispute on the stats, I'm an outlier as well. Mine is an orange fade, but I wish I would have gone with a solid of the lighter orange. Oh well, I'll be gone before the finish wears out.

[joosttx]

No dispute on the stats, I'm an outlier as well. Mine is an orange fade, but I wish I would have gone with a solid of the lighter orange. Oh well, I'll be gone before the finish wears out.

Baum painted
IF FWLW painted
Spectrum some paint
Seven some paint
Stinner mostly painted

[bicycletricycle]

Ha! This obfuscation of the facts is intolerable! Certainly they make lots of different rides and many of them are very different from each other , but to claim that there is no “fireflyness” is....... willful blindness?

One of the things that really strikes about all this talk of Firefly's being knocked off is...what exactly is a "Firefly" stylistically?

They are truly doing one off (pun intended) custom bikes and styling and generally no two are exactly alike beyond some very basic bikes. To use the No22 example that I had correctly assumed you (OP) were referring, they have settled into a signature look with anodizing their logo and matching fork to stem combo. I'm sure they have done some but I don't see the same examples of customized bikes and artistically custom/stylized graphics that I see from Firefly. The similarities are clearly there but the differences are greater IMO

Am I wrong?

[bicycletricycle]

http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2013/09/05/my-red-house-2/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2013/09/12/my-new-house/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2014/08/20/house-industries-richard-sachs/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2014/08/27/house-industries-for-richard-sachs-cyclocross/

I read the above links, sounds like you wanted the bikes to be ornamented differently and because it is hard you hired talented people to help. I see no crime :) in fact, I see a bicycle I find more desirable even though it is technically no different from its older red compadres.

[charliedid]

Ha! This obfuscation of the facts is intolerable! Certainly they make lots of different rides and many of them are very different from each other , but to claim that there is no “fireflyness” is....... willful blindness?

Sure Fireflyness exists but my point is you claimed that No22 was knocking off Firefly and I am saying they are both riffing on Ti bikes and anodizing. Same as two guitarists or two street photographers. Same but different.

No?

[bicycletricycle]

I was seriously fun at frivolous parties, back when I seriously drank even frivolous drinks....;)

Depends on the purchaser I guess. Some people like John Pawson houses, others don't

.


Minimalists are not functionalist, a building based purely on performance peramiters would certainly look nothing like a pawson. furthermore, people do not buy homes from Starchitects for their function. Minimalists are beholden to ornament just as much as the rest, they just limit the tools they have to play with.

[cadence90]

.... ..

[Mzilliox]

No22 Bikes to me have a completely different look than a Firefly. I could tell you with 95% accuracy which bike was which in any lineup.

Firefly have lost me a bit with their over the topness, and thats cool, i think its awesome how custom they are.

No22 very much has a look to their bikes that is more sophisticated, more simple, and to me, more aesthetically pleasing.

But everyone thought of something first, and mimicry is flattery, and everything thats been done has been done before and will be done again.

And choice is good.

But i think these companies have unique styles, i think No22 really has a look going right now that nobody can match

[charliedid]

I think I get exactly what you're saying: to paraphrase: a "bicycle and a tricycle are both like two guitarists or two street photographers (even if one tries to obfuscate the facts by calling it/them a 'bicycletricycle'). Same but different."

Yes?

:banana:
.

hahahahahah!

[bicycletricycle]

Sure Fireflyness exists but my point is you claimed that No22 was knocking off Firefly and I am saying they are both riffing on Ti bikes and anodizing. Same as two guitarists or two street photographers. Same but different.

No?

Sure, for me the chronology and similarity is enough to feel a bit knock off.

5 years ago, no ano ti
2 years ago, firefly makes a fleet of amazingly detailed and cool ano ti bikes
Now, other companies independently discover/rediscover ano And start to make similar looking bikes to varying degrees.


Obviously I have identified no crime here and I wish no I’ll will, just find it disappointing I guess.

[cadence90]

.... ..

[bicycletricycle]

Hey! I used obfuscation first. Obviously other people have used it before but never in this context or so well, no ripping my big word style off please.

:)


I think I get exactly what you're saying: to paraphrase: a "bicycle and a tricycle are both like two guitarists or two street photographers (even if one tries to obfuscate the facts by calling it/them a 'bicycletricycle'). Same but different."

Yes?

:banana:
.

[charliedid]

Sure, for me the chronology and similarity is enough to feel a bit knock off.

5 years ago, no ano ti
2 years ago, firefly makes a fleet of amazingly detailed and cool ano ti bikes
Now, other companies independently discover/rediscover ano And start to make similar looking bikes to varying degrees.


Obviously I have identified no crime here and I wish no I’ll will, just find it disappointing I guess.

I hear ya.

Another example

Trek knocking of Electra (flat foot cruiser) getting sued and then buying the company to me is an issue. Total deep pocket bullying. Hate it.

Handsome making the XOXO (almost total knock off of XO from B-Stone) many years after B-Stone is out of the market is a tip of the hat to an iconic bike.

That said, you know as well as anyone that trends happen in the creative world and styles are born. Only one person can be the originator and the rest certainly owe them some credit. I'd argue that No22 sees FF as both a Company to look up to and at the same time a contemporary.

Happens in all creative endeavors.

Okay I win, this is America and we can't both be right! :hello::banana::);)

[jlwdm]

I'd dispute the part of the point of a ti bike is.............

I find bare ti rather boring, a bit like Navy grey. A good powder coat can last for a few decades with care. It's an option I went for without regret.

I agree on the bare ti. My Spectrum is candy apple green.

Jeff

[MattTuck]

I didn't see this earlier in the thread... it appears Mike Z is experimenting with some ano

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfgX-VmhZww/?taken-by=mzank

[pbarry]

Sure, for me the chronology and similarity is enough to feel a bit knock off.

5 years ago, no ano ti
2 years ago, firefly makes a fleet of amazingly detailed and cool ano ti bikes
Now, other companies independently discover/rediscover ano And start to make similar looking bikes to varying degrees.


Obviously I have identified no crime here and I wish no I’ll will, just find it disappointing I guess.

The title of the thread speaks volumes about your thoughts on the subject. ;)

Perhaps your thinking is influenced by the norms or conventions of the graphic arts or architecture professions in which you toil? Guessing wildly here..

Unless you have fabricated bicycles for a living, or been deeply involved in the bicycle trade, the sublimation of other's work without attribution might be mistifying. Many of the mtb "innovations" during the 80's and 90's were "ripoffs" of patented designs from decades earlier. Rollercam brakes are an example.

The use of a finish technique, by and of itself, does not warrant the "ripoff" label. How it is applied might be grounds for such an accusation. However, given the industry's flaccid approach to shaming an appropriated asthetic, or even the rifinement of a mechanical innovation without attribution, riffing on a peer's technique cannot be considered cause for derision, except by the most desperate.

[bicycletricycle]

Fake news bro, I’m way more right. That fake XO made me ********* furious! Like knock off hans Wagner chairs, at least he’s dead.


I hear ya.

Another example

Trek knocking of Electra (flat foot cruiser) getting sued and then buying the company to me is an issue. Total deep pocket bullying. Hate it.

Handsome making the XOXO (almost total knock off of XO from B-Stone) many years after B-Stone is out of the market is a tip of the hat to an iconic bike.

That said, you know as well as anyone that trends happen in the creative world and styles are born. Only one person can be the originator and the rest certainly owe them some credit. I'd argue that No22 sees FF as both a Company to look up to and at the same time a contemporary.

Happens in all creative endeavors.

Okay I win, this is America and we can't both be right! :hello::banana::);)

[charliedid]

Fake news bro, I’m way more right. That fake XO made me ********* furious! Like knock off hans Wagner chairs, at least he’s dead.

Yeah but Wagner tried to make a closet out of a chair!

[Burnette]

I don’t think you should make assumptions about my level of “connoisseur”. I made no assumptions about yours, it is rude.

I do not think you should underestimate the value of aesthetics, they are no easier to get right than functional improvements. I know that many people do not appreciate this but it is true. Perhaps it is ultimately even a little harder because no measurement is available for success other than the market. A lighter stiffer bike can be proven to be so, a better looking bike is impossible to measure but to assume that we do not care about such things is laughable.

Many of the advancements you list below for builders are just aesthetics or function for most consumers on the aesthetic level. Super sculpted lugs, perfectly filed fillets, sloped top tubes, internal routing, “details”, custom racks. For me this is no slight, an object is rarely based purely on function, why should it be?

Well, you argued against yourself by typing " do not think you should underestimate the value of aesthetics" and then later "Many of the advancements you list below for builders are just aesthetics.

What you are complaining about is aesthetics, what I listed was differentiating factors that identified each brand. That's what you're missing.

I'm telling you that you missed the forest for the trees, you focus on anodizing when the differentiating factor for all of these builders is not anodizing or paint. It's all the things they do special to the frame and special pieces in building a bike versus another builder.

I didn't make an assumption of you level of being a connoisseur, I think pegged it. Read my previous post and what I just typed above. I again lay it bare here that you need to look deeper than an anodized stripe.

After many flickr pages and bicycle shows you will get the gist of how the trend of the day is like a common theme throughout the catalogue or show, that's not copying. That's a trend. Copying would be if the metal and/or carbon and the drop outs and the shapes and so on were the same.

IMO to focus on just the anodizing of Firefly is to devalue them to a single and almost minor finishing detail compared to all of the unique things they do that your eye fails to see.

[bicycletricycle]

Another “if you knew more about bicycles” comment, well, I think I know plenty.

My title certainly does express how I feel about the topic. I don’t think that the profiting from other people’s hard work through the short cut of imitation is unique to bicycles and it always pisses me off. The “everyone else does it “ excuse is for children and we don’t even let them get away with that nonsense. I’m not mystified, more annoyed I guess.

I am not a graphic designer or architect, I am interested in architecture and read about it.

Desperately seeking derision? Sure, I’ll cop to that.

I do design and make things for a living, I know what it feels like to pour your energy into something.





The title of the thread speaks volumes about your thoughts on the subject. ;)

Perhaps your thinking is influenced by the norms or conventions of the graphic arts or architecture professions in which you toil? Guessing wildly here..

Unless you have fabricated bicycles for a living, or been deeply involved in the bicycle trade, the sublimation of other's work without attribution might be mistifying. Many of the mtb "innovations" during the 80's and 90's were "ripoffs" of patented designs from decades earlier. Rollercam brakes are an example.

The use of a finish technique, by and of itself, does not warrant the "ripoff" label. How it is applied might be grounds for such an accusation. However, given the industry's flaccid approach to shaming an appropriated asthetic, or even the rifinement of a mechanical innovation without attribution, riffing on a peer's technique cannot be considered cause for derision, except by the most desperate.

[cadence90]

.... ..

[Burnette]

Another “if you knew more about bicycles” comment, well, I think I know plenty.

My title certainly does express how I feel about the topic. I don’t think that the profiting from other people’s hard work through the short cut of imitation is unique to bicycles and it always pisses me off. The “everyone else does it “ excuse is for children and we don’t even let them get away with that nonsense. I’m not mystified, more annoyed I guess.

I am not a graphic designer or architect, I am interested in architecture and read about it.

Desperately seeking derision? Sure, I’ll cop to that.

I do design and make things for a living, I know what it feels like to pour your energy into something.

I write, draw and paint and can discern outright copying from following a trend.
Look at all of these bicycle color configurators and notice there is commonality in hues, stripes, shapes, panels, shading, pearl and metal flake.
http://infinitamente.wilier.com/#!/
http://www.cyfac-custom.com/
http://paint.parleecycles.com/altum/altum_paint.html#schemeOption=leader&element1=Black&element1image=Black&element1finish=Gloss&element2=White&element2image=White&element2finish=Gloss&element3=Black&element3image=Black&element3finish=Gloss&element4=Black&element4image=Black&element4finish=Gloss&element5=White&element5image=White&element5finish=Gloss&element6=Black&element6image=Black&element6finish=Gloss&element7=White&element7image=White&element7finish=Gloss&element8=White&element8image=White&element8finish=Gloss
https://www.mycipollini.com/en/configurator/NK1K
https://co-motion.com/#paint
http://projectone.trekbikes.com/uk/en/#model/madone99

Go back and look at NAHBS for the past five years and there too you'll see trends come and go and there's not much new under the sun as far as bicycle finishes go.

[eric01]

Bring back the Klein fades!

[Burnette]

Bring back the Klein fades!

You can have any fade you want, today.
https://co-motion.com/paint/fades

[bicycletricycle]

Well, I think, complain, argue and complain some more.

Trends, would I deny the existence of trends? no serious man could deny the power of the trend waves we all surf. So what, we can still have opinions about when two things are similar because of trends or when one is close enough to be a forgery.

How about everybody and their brother copy pasting apple aesthetics. I have been in a lot of meetings where I was all but instructed to make something look like an apple product. It’s just lazy risk averse people trying to ride the wave someone else created.

Does anyone alone make a trend ? No.
Does this even matter? Not to most people apparently
Does Ford make a whole line of cars with aston martin grills ? YES

Are companies riding the trend of Apple things legally and fully within their rights, sure, but that isn’t a very good excuse IMHO




I write, draw and paint and can discern outright copying from following a trend.
Look at all of these bicycle color configurators and notice there is commonality in hues, stripes, shapes, panels, shading, pearl and metal flake.
http://infinitamente.wilier.com/#!/
http://www.cyfac-custom.com/
http://paint.parleecycles.com/altum/altum_paint.html#schemeOption=leader&element1=Black&element1image=Black&element1finish=Gloss&element2=White&element2image=White&element2finish=Gloss&element3=Black&element3image=Black&element3finish=Gloss&element4=Black&element4image=Black&element4finish=Gloss&element5=White&element5image=White&element5finish=Gloss&element6=Black&element6image=Black&element6finish=Gloss&element7=White&element7image=White&element7finish=Gloss&element8=White&element8image=White&element8finish=Gloss
https://www.mycipollini.com/en/configurator/NK1K
https://co-motion.com/#paint
http://projectone.trekbikes.com/uk/en/#model/madone99

Go back and look at NAHBS for the past five years and there too you'll see trends come and go and there's not much new under the sun as far as bicycle finishes go.

[bicycletricycle]

but I would bet that a building whose pure performance parameters were to house John Pawson would look a hell of a lot like a Pawson. ;)
.


This made me laugh out loud

[pbarry]

Another “if you knew more about bicycles” comment, well, I think I know plenty.

Yep, and you have no bona vides except for your say so. Build a frame and tell us exactly whom you copied or riffed on while doing the design cause it's extremely unlikely it would be completely unique. Using the traditional "diamond" frame design is risky if you accept the challenge.

My title certainly does express how I feel about the topic. I don’t think that the profiting from other people’s hard work through the short cut of imitation is unique to bicycles and it always pisses me off. The “everyone else does it “ excuse is for children and we don’t even let them get away with that nonsense. I’m not mystified, more annoyed I guess.

Exactly. Thanks for the confirmation. Profiting by others who use a similar finishing technique? Reaching far there. I question your agenda and I don't think you "get it" in regards to the business and profession of building bikes. My argument was not "everyone else does it", but that you do not understand the history of the bicycle industry. Defending FF's aesthetics is probably the very weakest argument you could produce to buttress your apparent passion.

I am not a graphic designer or architect, I am interested in architecture and read about it.

Desperately seeking derision? Sure, I’ll cop to that.

:hello:

I do design and make things for a living, I know what it feels like to pour your energy into something.

Good to hear. Keep up the good work.

Tyler has yet to complain about this apparent malfeasance, [presumably]: Since he knows he did not invent the technique, as it was done in Ti long before FF; is losing no business because of the imitators; has better things to do with his time.

[cadence90]

.... ..

[tttsmm]

*like* :banana:

Bring back the Klein fades!

[Burnette]

Well, I think, complain, argue and complain some more.

Trends, would I deny the existence of trends? no serious man could deny the power of the trend waves we all surf. So what, we can still have opinions about when two things are similar because of trends or when one is close enough to be a forgery.

How about everybody and their brother copy pasting apple aesthetics. I have been in a lot of meetings where I was all but instructed to make something look like an apple product. It’s just lazy risk averse people trying to ride the wave someone else created.

Does anyone alone make a trend ? No.
Does this even matter? Not to most people apparently
Does for make a whole line of cars with aston martin grills ? YES

Are they riding the trend of I things, sure, are they emerassing Kmockoffs, sure.

Maybe you're tired, cause that was a hard rambling read right there that made no sense.

This all reads as very internal to you personally, you don't like your job environment and you're morally conflicted by what you're asked to do there.

I'm writing to you know to let you know that your job has no bearing on the topic you brought up. You didn't do what I asked of you. Look at the links of the configurators I provided you and go back five years of NAHBS shows and you'll see nothing is new.

You have a right to your opinion but it's based on a poor understanding of the terms and what they mean.

You might have design but you have no art or commercial experience, for if you did you would understand inspirations and copyrights.

And again, an anodized stripe does not a Firefly make, they are way, way more than that and you do them a disservice to claim that anodizing is the mark that identifies them.

Taken form another perspective you could find the anodizing is gimmicky. If you'll notice some customers don't get the anodizing and the bike is still a Firefly.

[bicycletricycle]

Ha, passive aggressive encouragement to look deeper than an ano stripe. Could you condescend more? I’ll make sure to look at the trees next time, or the Forrest? Which is more important?

I was trying to point out that things you pointed out as important to brands were largely aesthetic, I wasn’t defeating my point, I was trying to prove it. I failed so I will try again. Firefly developed an aesthetic style with the ano. It is no different or less valuable or easier than than nicely shaped lugs or cool internal routing.

I do think that firefly has done much more for themselves than just cool ano, obviously, that point does not directly undercut the value of the finishing work that they clearly spend so much time on.

The custom ano finishes are just as hard and time consuming as the tube shaping, cool dropouts, internal routing and tube machining.


If you don’t think your comments are full of assumptions about my level of bicycle geekiness than , well, I think you should just read them more carefully. Maybe it is not your intent but it is what you are communicating.

I will not attempt to prove I know more about the subtleties of bicycle than you, it is petty and stupid and might just lead to some sort of extreme Embarrassment.



Well, you argued against yourself by typing " do not think you should underestimate the value of aesthetics" and then later "Many of the advancements you list below for builders are just aesthetics.

What you are complaining about is aesthetics, what I listed was differentiating factors that identified each brand. That's what you're missing.

I'm telling you that you missed the forest for the trees, you focus on anodizing when the differentiating factor for all of these builders is not anodizing or paint. It's all the things they do special to the frame and special pieces in building a bike versus another builder.

I didn't make an assumption of you level of being a connoisseur, I think pegged it. Read my previous post and what I just typed above. I again lay it bare here that you need to look deeper than an anodized stripe.

After many flickr pages and bicycle shows you will get the gist of how the trend of the day is like a common theme throughout the catalogue or show, that's not copying. That's a trend. Copying would be if the metal and/or carbon and the drop outs and the shapes and so on were the same.

IMO to focus on just the anodizing of Firefly is to devalue them to a single and almost minor finishing detail compared to all of the unique things they do that your eye fails to see.

[fiamme red]

Déjà vu. ;)

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=297940.

[bicycletricycle]

I did screw up that last ramble, oh well.

I love my job,

You continue to claim to know me, my job and my life experience, it is strange.

I have looked at all the pictures of all the NAHBS since inception and all of the interbikes since 1996.

I have not claimed that people infringed on copyrights.

I will not make assumptions about your career or understanding of terms.

Good night.





Maybe you're tired, cause that was a hard rambling read right there that made no sense.

This all reads as very internal to you personally, you don't like your job environment and you're morally conflicted by what you're asked to do there.

I'm writing to you know to let you know that your job has no bearing on the topic you brought up. You didn't do what I asked of you. Look at the links of the configurators I provided you and go back five years of NAHBS shows and you'll see nothing is new.

You have a right to your opinion but it's based on a poor understanding of the terms and what they mean.

You might have design but you have no art or commercial experience, for if you did you would understand inspirations and copyrights.

And again, an anodized stripe does not a Firefly make, they are way, way more than that and you do them a disservice to claim that anodizing is the mark that identifies them.

Taken form another perspective you could find the anodizing is gimmicky. If you'll notice some customers don't get the anodizing and the bike is still a Firefly.

[cadence90]

.... ..

[bicycletricycle]

Good to hear. Keep up the good work.

Tyler has yet to complain about this apparent malfeasance, [presumably]: Since he knows he did not invent the technique, as it was done in Ti long before FF; is losing no business because of the imitators; has better things to do with his time.

All strong points, if commentary is limited only to those who have had the same exact experience as those that they are talking about, than, well, I just don’t see how anyone could say anything to anybody.

Finishing techniques are of varying importance to different brand identitities. I remember pegoretti before the crazy paint, no one cared. Landshark without the madness? Certainly a much different proposition. Somec, colnago.... firefly without cool finishes is still a nice bicycle but firefly as a company without ever having embarked on such a crazy finishing adventure? I would bet that they would be in a much different position.

If I need to have perticipated in the bicycle industry as a manufacturer of components or something to understand it well enough for your standards than I certainly fall short. My experience is limited to 15 years in shops, friendships with some bicycle makers and 25 years of being obsessed with them in general. I accept that their is much more I don’t know than what I do know.


I don’t think that makes my perspective automatically invalid.

And Tyler not saying anything, Well, there is a lot of reasons why he wouldn’t publically call out another brand in this small of a world. One of those reasons would be that he thinks it is totally fine. Obviously I could be in the crazy position of being more bothered by it than the actual people involved. In that’s case, I might find myself in the even stranger position of being annoyed that he didn’t care :)

No pleasing some people.

[bicycletricycle]

Bring back the Klein fades!

In a cruel twist of irony, firefly just did make a “Klein” fade pink and blue bicycle.

Are they guilty of the same crime?

Can you steal from a thief?

I guess all this ranting has been just a ridiculous waste of time?

[bicycletricycle]

They don’t owe you anything.

But

Hiring someone to catch a shark and then hiring someone else to put it into a tank of formaldehyde is not art, it is a publicity stunt.

(If you attempt to retort by asking me about the definition of art I will give you the only honest answer. Art is what I think art is, if it is everything it is nothing and if it is definable than getting past personal opinions about the topic is all but impossible)





OK, fine: "big words", "fake news", etc., but wait, guys...what about this one?

1) Years, many many years ago, as a small and innocent Italian child, I caught a butterfly and put it in a jar. The butterfly died, and so I had a dead butterfly, stuck to the side of the glass jar. The terror, tragedy, and trauma were unspeakable (until today). But, as a small and innocent Italian child I wanted to keep that butterfly, and so I stuck it in some resin, and kept the thing there on my desk in Italy.

2) Years, many many years later, the adult and cynical British artist Damien Hirst stuck a bunch of dead butterflies under the resin of a Trek bicycle for some adult and cynical American guy riding in France!!! What the he!!??? Talk about a rip-off, even crossing all kinds of international boundaries and stuff!!! :confused: :help: :(

https://images.successstory.com/adminimg/image_uploads/content_images/Trek-Butterfly-Madone_1440738139.jpg

3) So, Damien Hirst, that American guy, and Trek all ripped me off, and all owe me a ton of money, right?
.

[doomridesout]

2. If the customer wants it then are the supposed to just loose the sale? I would say that it is short sided to cave to a customer that wants you to copy a competitors style. The most successful builders make an effort to cultivate a unique style IMHO, if you do whatever your customers want you will be known for nothing and be able to demand very little money for your time.


I think this about Moots introducing anodized decals. They highlight aspects of their bikes that aren't the frame by fetishizing the new Chris King color now too. I don't like it.

The core brand identity of Moots, to me, is the underlying simple genius of the design and the craftsmanship, very industrial values. It's the beauty of a perfect, understated tool. Dressing it up gets away from what I like about how they look.

I also think they're executing some kind of kooky designs they might not sell a lot of. I wish they'd make a straight steerer Compact with an integrated seat binder again.

[Kontact]

Fake news bro, I’m way more right. That fake XO made me ********* furious! Like knock off hans Wagner chairs, at least he’s dead.

Bridgestone is dead. Why is an homage to much missed and long out-of-production bike a bad thing?

[taz-t]

Déjà vu. ;)

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=297940.

Wow - I'd totally forgotten the Pacenti/Pegoretti 'debate'. I think there might also be some following events that would cause some commenters to change their minds wrt Pacenti's 'intent'. (I've got no further info on this.)

Anyone recall when Airborne Cycles used a frame ornamentation :) that was highly similar to Sacha's 'V' for Vanilla dropouts? I think the consensus at the time was that usage was a 'rip off'.

IMO (note, not ATMO), Firefly has used the Ti anodization to create a unique visual identity and No22's usage is too similar. It's not about technique, it's about the resulting image.

Also, although the makers may be trying to create an attractive aesthetic, this isn't about 'art' and it's corresponding arguments for homage, parody, satire, artistic license, etc. It's a product for commerce.

Or maybe it's just a coincidence?;)

[cadence90]

.... ..

[bicycletricycle]

Bridgestone is dead. Why is an homage to much missed and long out-of-production bike a bad thing?

Because I am too uptight.

Here are the things that bug me about it.

1. Grant is still around and I know that riv isn’t making an XO equivilant but I just think it is a no go purely out of respect.
2. It should have been nicer, a TIG welded XO is just a no go for me, I am a snob.
3. It is just not a classy move IMHO, call it respect for your elders if you must.

I could get behind fully lugged clones made by waterford as long as grant got a few bucks for each one sold or lent the mission his seal of approval.

I could also get being a modern interpretation of the XO ( 27.5 drop bar 1x11 shredder mobile thing) painted orange and called the XNO or something, made by VO or all city or something?

[bicycletricycle]

I think this about Moots introducing anodized decals. They highlight aspects of their bikes that aren't the frame by fetishizing the new Chris King color now too. I don't like it.

The core brand identity of Moots, to me, is the underlying simple genius of the design and the craftsmanship, very industrial values. It's the beauty of a perfect, understated tool. Dressing it up gets away from what I like about how they look.

I also think they're executing some kind of kooky designs they might not sell a lot of. I wish they'd make a straight steerer Compact with an integrated seat binder again.

I super agree with this, moots has done something amazing. Thay have a luxury minimalist brand of superbly crafted elegant and durable high performance heirloom goods. They have earned this through years and years of consistency , quality and customer service.

It would be an exaggeration to claim that ano decals are the beginning of the end, It just makes me a little worried.

On the other hand I own zero moots bikes and they have a payroll and I’m just an idiot typing messages to strangers.

[bicycletricycle]

That’s my bicycle in the Chapman bubble!

If you're talking New England framebuilders, there's this chart:

http://www.anglesandpoise.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/new_england_bicycle_bloodline_-2012_600_05.jpg

[eric01]

In a cruel twist of irony, firefly just did make a “Klein” fade pink and blue bicycle.



Are they guilty of the same crime?



Can you steal from a thief?



I guess all this ranting has been just a ridiculous waste of time?



At the risk of thread hijacking... or possibly lightening up a thread that has turned quite serious.... :)

That firefly is cool but the old klein linear fades were 3 colors. Moonrise was my fave and it went purple to orange to yellow.

http://www.oldklein.com/vanha/kleinit/kuvat/OrangeAttitude/attitudemoonrise.JPG

[GonaSovereign]

Sure, for me the chronology and similarity is enough to feel a bit knock off.

28 years ago, ano ti, ornate, made a short pedal from Firefly. Highly regarded,
well known in the industry. Continually produced in New England to this very day.
5 years ago, no ano ti
2 years ago, firefly makes a fleet of amazingly detailed and cool ano ti bikes
Now, other companies independently discover/rediscover ano And start to make similar looking bikes to varying degrees.


Obviously I have identified no crime here and I wish no I’ll will, just find it disappointing I guess.

Updated timeline above.

1991 Pics from here: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=237100

http://www.abload.de/img/img_11097qxte.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/img_1070lgz7w.jpg

more recent pic from here:http://www.titaniumarts.com/anodized.html

http://www.titaniumarts.com/images/ANODIZED/anoslickrock/anoslickrock033.jpg


The point is this has been going on for decades, without stop. Some people participating in this thread noticed recently. All of the people working at the brands mentioned here have known about it since day one.

[Tony T]

I was surprised that Firefly (Boston) was not at NAHBS (Hartford).
Anyone know why they didn't attend?

[buddybikes]

They don't need take multiple days off from building, there backlog is sufficient I think.

[bicycletricycle]

Your evidence is persuasive, however, my first post clearly says that they did not invent this process.

I remember seeing a one off full suspension bike with a pneumatic pull shock that’s looked like a small vaccume bag. I think it was a one off.

Anyways, those one off ano Frames look nice but are much less sophisticated than what’s firefly has developed for themselves. I tried to search for more images of ano’d one off’s and had trouble finding much. Do you know how many they made? Looks like the vast majority of frames they made were raw?

I don’t think that anyone is inventing anything here, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t be grumpy about the whole thing.

On another note. I wonder who the first person to anodize a titanium frame actually was?




Updated timeline above.

1991 Pics from here: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=237100

http://www.abload.de/img/img_11097qxte.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/img_1070lgz7w.jpg

more recent pic from here:http://www.titaniumarts.com/anodized.html

http://www.titaniumarts.com/images/ANODIZED/anoslickrock/anoslickrock033.jpg


The point is this has been going on for decades, without stop. Some people participating in this thread noticed recently. All of the people working at the brands mentioned here have known about it since day one.

[charliedid]

Your evidence is persuasive, however, my first post clearly says that they did not invent this process.

I remember seeing a one off full suspension bike with a pneumatic pull shock that’s looked like a small vaccume bag. I think ti was a one off.

Anyways, those one off ano Frames look nice but are much less sophisticated than what’s firefly has developed for themselves. I tried to search for more images of ano’d one off’s and had trouble finding much. Do you know how many they made? Looks like the vast majority of frames they made were raw?

I don’t think that anyone is inventing anything here, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t be grumpy about the whole thing.

On another note. I wonder who the first person to anodize a titanium frame actually was?

I actually think Leni was the first to do it. I can't bet money on it however.

http://www.titaniumarts.com/anodized.html

[unterhausen]

I don't know who was the first to anodizing on ti bikes either, but when I saw the first firefly with anodizing I thought of her work. I actually found that site through my interest in custom flashlights.

[Kontact]

Finishing techniques are of varying importance to different brand identitities. I remember pegoretti before the crazy paint, no one cared.

Isn't Pegoretti that guy who copied 1980's Cannondale paint jobs?

http://78.media.tumblr.com/83e70c5b919453cf2904e7ae39b68ab3/tumblr_ms9faa3hAF1qaopbco3_1280.png






;)

[bicycletricycle]

looks like a clear neanderthal cave man rip off to me.

nothing new under the sun

no one owns anything

no one deserves any respect

:)

Isn't Pegoretti that guy who copied 1980's Cannondale paint jobs?

http://78.media.tumblr.com/83e70c5b919453cf2904e7ae39b68ab3/tumblr_ms9faa3hAF1qaopbco3_1280.png






;)

[choke]

I know that Firefly didn't invent anodizing and they are not the first manufacturer to ano. ti frames, however, other brands blatantly copying the style of Firefly's ano. style is really disappointing to me.

Does this bother any one else?No, it doesn't bother me at all. But then I'm not a fan of anodized Ti on a bike in general.

All I had to get was a good vibe and they would've had my money. The person on the phone came off like he way better things to do than talk with me for 5 min about a bike that I'd have placed an order for right away. At that point they got crossed off my list now and forever.I had a similar experience with a different builder....one who is highly respected and who always gets high praise on the forums. I was at NAHBS and it didn't take long for me to realized that he was far less interested in talking to me than I was to him.

[Kontact]

looks like a clear neanderthal cave man rip off to me.

nothing new under the sun

no one owns anything

no one deserves any respect

:)

But really, doesn't that look a bit like what Dario would later become famous for? Cannondale did a variety of these type of "hand painted" graphics on different bikes over a period of several years.


It is arguably "cheesy" if No22 has very close graphics to Firefly, but is that really the same as a lack of "respect"? These are both relatively young companies. No one seemed too upset about respect when Serotta and Moots "stole" Litespeed and Merlin's 3/2.5 frame construction.


I doubt No22 and Moots think they are in the Firefly knock-off business, and after a season or two it will be very hard to mistake one for any other. But a few seasons from now several other Ti makers will feel the same sales pressure and will also offer anodizing. After a short time talking about Ti anodize will be like talking about color contrast lug painting.

[Kirk007]

Re Pegoretti: his bikes were a "thing" well before the paint, most just didn't know about them and he hasn't had his own shingle hanging out there all that long. And the paint wouldn't matter if the bikes sucked.

I remember seeing his first "team" bike sometime in the 90s at a small shop in Seattle that at the time also carried Landsharks and Pinarellos, Assos, Exte Ondo,Campy and refused to work on bikes with Shimano components - you know, the good old days. I still think that's one of his best paint jobs.

And Pegs were a thing well before the Ciavete phase - the Love 3, Marcelo, Big Legged Emma, Duende, 8:30 a.m. all precede the Ciavete time line, which is the paint that seems to get haters all stewed up about as "kindergartener level finger painting". His earlier paint jobs were at times different than the work of the day but they weren't the abstractions of the Ciavete, and they have never been anything like that Cannondale.

I don't get worked up about folks copycatting the icing - if the cake sucks the product will fail no matter how yummy it looks.

[oldpotatoe]

life is hard enough with the big companies taking the majority market share and leaving the scraps for the little guys to fight over, I can never understand why make life even harder.

We have a tendency to eat our young, and go after the weak and those who are resource poor because they are low-hanging fruit and the big guys? ...are quite frankly untouchable and have greater firepower under their disposal. You can't win.

The little guys got to figure out a more equitable and better way to band together and share learning, knowledge, resources...quite simply just to survive. If we do that, we can ensure that everyone not only have a better chance to survive and make a decent living but dare I say, even flourish and get some personal satisfaction out of it. There are more than enough to go around, why is this so hard to do?

We are our greatest enemy.

Not about 'winning' and business isn't the Salvation Army..not a charity. You can support an inferior product cuz it makes you all warm and cozy inside but that's not making the product or the business climate any better.

Good business means recognizing your core market and aggressively pursuing that market..not relying on handouts or 'good will'. Economy of scale, knowing who your customer is, great customer service...crappy business' do go under, as they should.

IMHO of course, 'pal'...

But you won't see this anyway...:eek:

[sparky33]

http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2013/09/05/my-red-house-2/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2013/09/12/my-new-house/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2014/08/20/house-industries-richard-sachs/
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2014/08/27/house-industries-for-richard-sachs-cyclocross/
fwiw the House designed saffron tessellated paint scheme is one of my all-time favorite finishes.
https://i0.wp.com/www.richardsachs.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/A.jpg?resize=550%2C398

[ltwtsculler91]

But really, doesn't that look a bit like what Dario would later become famous for? Cannondale did a variety of these type of "hand painted" graphics on different bikes over a period of several years.


It is arguably "cheesy" if No22 has very close graphics to Firefly, but is that really the same as a lack of "respect"? These are both relatively young companies. No one seemed too upset about respect when Serotta and Moots "stole" Litespeed and Merlin's 3/2.5 frame construction.


I doubt No22 and Moots think they are in the Firefly knock-off business, and after a season or two it will be very hard to mistake one for any other. But a few seasons from now several other Ti makers will feel the same sales pressure and will also offer anodizing. After a short time talking about Ti anodize will be like talking about color contrast lug painting.

Given that the No22 guys came from Serotta who was anodizing some Ti models (Fondo could be done blue and logos) towards the end, it seems to have been a pretty natural transition for them. They've offered anodized finishes for the last few years, and this is the first time they're playing it up with more complex graphics.

[MattTuck]

fwiw the House designed saffron tessellated paint scheme is one of my all-time favorite finishes.
https://i0.wp.com/www.richardsachs.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/A.jpg?resize=550%2C398

It is pretty sweet.

[Butch]

To quote an old saying, "what is old is new again". I can bring a little perspective on the Moots product during my 21-1/2 year tenure.

Moots started making Ti bikes in '92 and within about a year employee Aryea Copa was anodizing entire frames. Not so much patterns but the whole frame. I don't have any photos in my archives but many were done and floated around town for many years. When Moots was sold in '95 (I got there in '96) the mood had changed to create a simple, clean aesthetic to compliment the raw material. We did not pursue further anodizing.

So the Moots product and aesthetic continued. Yes we did have Ventana make Aluminum Smoothies, some anodized, but the decals on the ti stayed white for many years. Black and colored decals were next, but getting away from stickers was also a goal, hence the etched and polished logos.

In my opinion Tyler and Jamie changed what people imagined a titanium frame to be aesthetically, chapeau. Again everyone has an opinion about taste, but what they brought to the table in design and execution was genuinely unique and tasteful and therefore challenged the industry to take notice. Now the Moots/Merlin look of white on Ti was still classic but it made companies take notice, and take action. Some went the paint direction and others kept it "bare" metal.

Fades, panels, blue, headbadges, lug designs, I am sure the list goes on, have come and gone, been copied, repeated or rebirthed over the years. Materials, design, execution are at the core of the products we all see and are around, having choices about the way it looks are optional.

Some are sure that Shimano has a "vault" (thanks Jon) where they have stored all the old products, Sweetwing cranks included, so that they can rebirth ideas from decades ago. I guess the same is true for aesthetics, the details just get "improved". Whats old is new again....

[PaMtbRider]

I know that a Firefly is much more than the anodizing and I would love to have one. The anodizing is what originally set them apart for me, and was one of the easiest ways to differentiate their offerings from all the other Ti builders.

I think what No22 is doing is not a knock off of Firefly and has their own aesthetic. Moots on the other hand seems more like "me too" and jumping on a current popular trend.

Interesting that Seven won't offer anodizing because they feel it compromises the strength of the frame.

http://www.sevencycles.com/buildingbike/techsupplement/surface.php

[zank]

The oxide layer is the same tenacious oxide layer that naturally occurs, it's just grown in a controlled manner to be a wavelength of visible light thick in order to create the constructive interference necessary to produce what our eyes interprets as color. Contamination of a weld and heat affected zone is a much different process.

[rallizes]

I know that a Firefly is much more than the anodizing and I would love to have one. The anodizing is what originally set them apart for me, and was one of the easiest ways to differentiate their offerings from all the other Ti builders.

I think what No22 is doing is not a knock off of Firefly and has their own aesthetic. Moots on the other hand seems more like "me too" and jumping on a current popular trend.

Interesting that Seven won't offer anodizing because they feel it compromises the strength of the frame.

http://www.sevencycles.com/buildingbike/techsupplement/surface.php

Did not know that about Seven. Very interesting indeed.

Has Firefly ever addressed this theory?

[Kontact]

Did not know that about Seven. Very interesting indeed.

Has Firefly ever addressed this theory?

All they have to say is that their failure rates is acceptably low. What is true in theory needs to be born out in practice. But it isn't like No22 or Firefly are going to tell anyone what their failure rate has been with anodized frames, and if either moves away from anodizing welds, that would certainly be suggestive.


Seven, Merlin and Spectrum hold to a theories about titanium construction that are rather purest - they think that the best Ti attributes come from minimal cold working, so they don't swage or flare tubes, and butt tubing with stock removal. So it shouldn't be shocking that they disapprove of other techniques that get away from simple, round, brushed tubing.

Which makes them sound like titanium evangelicals, but if you ride a Merlin or Seven vs a similar cold worked frame you can tell what they are talking about. So maybe they are worth listening to.

Of course, the Lynskey's have been at it as long, and they will make you a frame of twisted tubing and seamed 6/4.

[ispy]

I think this about Moots introducing anodized decals. They highlight aspects of their bikes that aren't the frame by fetishizing the new Chris King color now too. I don't like it.

The core brand identity of Moots, to me, is the underlying simple genius of the design and the craftsmanship, very industrial values. It's the beauty of a perfect, understated tool. Dressing it up gets away from what I like about how they look.

I also think they're executing some kind of kooky designs they might not sell a lot of. I wish they'd make a straight steerer Compact with an integrated seat binder again.

+1 on this.

It's almost impossible to originate truly "original" designs in anything these days. Instead I think what sets the leader apart from others is that the former executes better than the latter, regardless of whether by a mile or by a hair. Plus some approaches are better suited for one shape/form/situation than another. Firefly's anodized logo is more compelling (IMO) than Moot's anodized logo b/c (IMO) the FF logo's typographic form is more complementary with the proportions of a bicycle frame tube. Plus FF team has shown good "eye" in refining and developing this base condition: The typeface exudes a nice balance/tension between heft and delicacy, with just enough but not too much round-ness or curvatures; you see this nuanced sensibility reflected in their dropouts with the chamfered edges, or their seat post clamps with the double bands, or even just the little tail of the "y" tucked into/above the baseline whereas most "y" tails dangle below. In contrast, the Moots logo is blocky (which I dig but for different reasons) and in its classic white-fill-with-black-outline incarnation, feels balanced against the classic sandblasted (no other frills other than the welds) frame. But anodizing the larger "field" of the M logo just looks gaudy to me. The etched/sandblasted M logo is pretty good, but when I see this finish on a script downtube logo (Mosaic, Alchemy... no offense to these fine bikes), they don't seem balanced.

[cadence90]

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[pasadena]

I thought the Firefly F logo was a firefly's butt
Their graphics are all nice, and well considered.

All the ti brands have good graphics for the most part.

[charliedid]

^
Interesting.

I completely agree re: the Firefly logo. To me it is one of the best: pure; simple; instantly recognizable; evocative of a firefly's flight/bicycle ride; fits a head tube perfectly; the curved base and pointed top are solid and aspirational; works equally well flat in print or curved on a frame/bottle.

On the other hand, the Firefly script is sort of a mess imo: the "L" seems curved only to differentiate it from the "I", but still can't decide if it is upper-case or -lower; the curved "Y" tail feels like a bit of a rescue attempt on the odd "L"; why the "L" and "Y" are trying to form a "U" is beyond me; the "R" is very top-heavy and awkward. The text simply isn't very well resolved yet imo.

https://fireflybicycles.com/images/logo_firefly.png


Definitely agree on the decal/blasted block "MOOTS" logos (great) versus the anodized ones (hideous).
.

Works and reads better on the tube vs 2D which I think is the point, right?

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[ispy]

^

Firefly downtube graphics look better anodized than painted.
Moots downtube graphics look better decaled/etched than anodized.

(But both have great headtube badges!)

My point was that 1) whomever does X less well, ends up looking like a poorer imitator despite good intentions; and 2) each graphic's particular form-shape-heft-nuances (or each material, for that matter) will be better suited to one medium and not equally with all.

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[charliedid]

[QUOTE=cadence90;2323391]The logo works equally (very) well both in 2-D and in 3-D, and at many scales, definitely yes.

The script much less so in both cases imo:

I was thinking the downtube, which I think works. On the other hand....as has been stated I am a big fan of the No22 bikes but if I had a gripe it's the unreadable (at a glance) text. Not a fan of this trend with bike companies. It's your on the ground marketing...fly your flag!

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[charliedid]

Totally agree with this...The Return Of The Super Graphics is driving me crazy!
.


I think that bike is beautiful but if it was my company you would damn well know what it was riding or walking past it.

[bicycletricycle]

Is that a firefly ?
:)

Unreadable grsphucs are getting a bit annoying

Makes me feel like an old man complaining about not being able to understand the lyrics.


[QUOTE=cadence90;2323391]The logo works equally (very) well both in 2-D and in 3-D, and at many scales, definitely yes.

The script much less so in both cases imo:

I was thinking the downtube, which I think works. On the other hand....as has been stated I am a big fan of the No22 bikes but if I had a gripe it's the unreadable (at a glance) text. Not a fan of this trend with bike companies. It's your on the ground marketing...fly your flag!

[charliedid]

Is that a firefly ?
:)


[QUOTE=charliedid;2323431]

Kinda

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