Rivendell saved for now...

[malbecman]

Just got this email, good on all of you that chipped in. Lets hope they keep the lights on.... :)



Thanks to you and not anything we did, in less than a week we went from me sure we’d be gone in four months — a fear I didn’t spread to the crew here— to solid money footing and optimism. Because of what you did, we can pay bills, buy inventory, pay credit card debts, pay decent chunks toward bikes already ordered and too late to take back, and pay off most of our line of credit. You must be wondering how much we took in. Businesses don’t customarily talk about specifics like that, but what you’ve done for us isn’t customary, either, and why should you, of all life on earth, have to be curious? t’s still trickling in, and we appreciate it all, but since last Th afternoon we’ve deposited a little more than $215,000.

I wondered whether or not to say the number, the only hesitation being that it might make some of you feel as though your $10 contribution for the gift certificate was a drop in the ocean. No! This had to be a massive collective effort. It would not have worked any other way, and there’s no ranking of contributions. Well...almost. BT bought a ten for the cause. That’s the one that meant the most to me, personally. Thanks, Brian. Holy cow.

Thanks to the rest of you, too—individuals and forums and websites and instagrammers and all those social media things that I don’t technically understand but I know work and made such a big difference here. If I name one I should name them all, but if I try I’ll forget one and feel horrible, so--argh-- thanks. BIG difference.

No simple thanks conveys what any of us are feeling, which is so much deeper and more complicated than that. What we’re feeling is huge relief, elation, and disbelief, and pressured, in a good way, to be worthy of it.

We have a restart traction, and we’re not going to blow it and waste your help.

From now on we’ll order and stock more conservatively, so we’re bound to sell out faster and might be out of stock when you finally want it. We’ll be better at the business, but we won’t change what’s working already, and I promise won’t get more mellow about bicycles or gear. We’re not joining the World Team.

It’s true that you saved Rivendell Bicycle Works and secured a future for the kinds of gear we cause to be, but it’s also an understatement. That’s just stuff. What you saved were jobs for the best people I know. You’re keeping us together, and we thank you for that and will never, ever ask again. — G

[thwart]

Wow.

That's a lot of goodwill.

Hope it works out... as stated, good to be radical in terms of ideas about biking, but a bit more conservative in business decisions...

[sales guy]

$215,000....wow!!!!

[Louis]

Good news, but how long until the next crisis?

Lurching from one cash crunch to the next isn't a long-term strategy, and Grant's been sending out this sort of plea intermittently for years. Something in the business model has to change. That's easy for me to say from where I sit, but this has been a continuous problem, so I don't think I'm exaggerating.

[eddief]

and glad they will live another day. I can appreciate a lot of their stuff, even though mostly not my style these days. I ride the biggest bike I can cuz DBRK and GP said I should. But I still shake my head at double top tubes...for no good reason I can see. Making a stout bike stouter for looks is against my better judgement for bikes and selling them.

[rnhood]

Yes, this is certainly not the first time he has launched a poor mouth campaign. He needs to get his business sustainable regardless of how this might affect his product offerings. Time to come of age.

[pbarry]

Impressive outpouring of generosity. Maybe consider a move to cheaper rent district/county/state? No need for a web based co. to be where they are. And maybe consider a few changes with the frames. The Appaloosa looks like my 1984 Ross Mt. Hood..

Riv's staunch anti-World Team view has given others like Black Mountain an opening which they deservedly fill. Wish them the best, but doing the same thing over and and almost failing won't keep working. Yes, been in the biz and sunscribed to the Reader when it came out. :beer:

[nickl]

Grant dodged a bullet. Now to avoid another reoccurrence he needs to put together a sustainable business plan. Perhaps a good first step would be an evaluation of his product offerings...some of the frames in his catalog appear to have very minimal appeal to the cycling enthusiasts that comprise his target demographic.

Just a suggestion.

[weisan]

http://alicehui.com/bike/grant.jpg

[pbarry]

Thanks, Weisan, for posting the screen shot. Re-reading for the third time, I don't think Grant gets the bigger picture. It's not just about inventory management.

[R3awak3n]

I didn't comment on the other 50 threads... but they got 215k because people have some appreciation for what Riv did for cycling.

Will this keep Riv afloat for a while? Its tough to say, they definitely need to change their business structure that is for sure. I know they want to stick to their roots which is awesome but sometimes screws you.

[pbarry]

Their roots are being retro and iconoclastic while the world passes them by. :eek: That's fine, but thrive or fail on those same roots. Really, Riv doesn't offer a decent front rando bag?

[FlashUNC]

I get it's part of the whole bit, but they've gotta find some better marketing. How does the rando/gravel crew largely miss out on the groad explosion they helped create?

[pbarry]

I get it's part of the whole bit, but they've gotta find some better marketing. How does the rando/gravel crew largely miss out on the groad explosion they helped create?

Marketing AND product. Being focused on friction shifters and long wheelbases they missed out everything else: Wider rear end spacing and through axles, 1x drivetrains, faster and more supple tires, bikepacking equipment, et al. Shellacked bar tape only goes so far.

[beeatnik]

I like the Internet's style.

[cinema]

I’m glad to order a couple gift certificates from riv. They’re a great shop. Grant is an iconoclast who is responsible for much of the direction of the rando/gravel part of the industry as we know it today whether you can see that or not.

That being said I hope they read the other thread and take what people are saying seriously. I didn’t exactly get the feeling that they did from the email that Rivendell sent out. But maybe they did, I’m not a mind reader. Seeing how many employees they have in that image and the amount that they brought in, there’s a halfway decent chance that any used Rivendell frame will be worth much more in five years than it is worth today. I hope that’s not the case, so I’ll be wearing the riv t shirt and hat around town for some free advertising.

[bicycletricycle]

So awesome! I think grant has done a lot more than most people realize for cool bicycles. He earned this and I hope they use this second chance well.

[crankles]

The Appaloosa looks like my 1984 Ross Mt. Hood..



OMG. I'm old enough to know just how funny that statement is...

I'm glad I kicked in....two of those folks in the picture are close friends of mine. I hope Grant realizes ow important those folks are..

[AngryScientist]

So awesome! I think grant has done a lot more than most people realize for cool bicycles. He earned this and I hope they use this second chance well.

Concur

[Llewellyn]

Passing the hat around every so often is not a viable business model.

[Bostic]

Perhaps a good first step would be an evaluation of his product offerings...some of the frames in his catalog appear to have very minimal appeal to the cycling enthusiasts that comprise his target demographic.


Where are these bicycles?? I just don't see them around and I look at every bicycle, I just do. Whether I'm riding, walking, driving, kicking it outside at a coffee shop, I check out bikes. I live in the South Bay Area but I'm also up in San Francisco a ton. Big family on in-laws side so I'm always on the go. When I'm in Sacramento I'm all over the American River Bike Trail. I never see these frames.

[likebikes]

maybe they read the previous rivendell thread here and got some good advice from paceliners.

[m4rk540]

Where are these bicycles?? I just don't see them around and I look at every bicycle, I just do. Whether I'm riding, walking, driving, kicking it outside at a coffee shop, I check out bikes. I live in the South Bay Area but I'm also up in San Francisco a ton. Big family on in-laws side so I'm always on the go. When I'm in Sacramento I'm all over the American River Bike Trail. I never see these frames.

Drive over to Golden Saddle in Silver Lake. Hang out for about 30 min.

[oldpotatoe]

$215,000....wow!!!!

Little surprised he's so open about the $..I wonder if it has tax repercussions.

[redir]

It's kind of like the cult of Apple. :help::bike:

[pdonk]

Little surprised he's so open about the $..I wonder if it has tax repercussions.

This makes me think of groupon.

Buy a $10 gift certificate today, spend it at sometime in the future. The accounting for income matching/expense would be a pain, plus you no have a liability on your books for the $10 gift certifcate until it is spent. If all $215k comes in a bunch, the problem occurs again, no cash flow.

I'm not an accountant, nor do i play one on TV, have taken just enough courses in university and read enough balance sheets to be dangerous in thinking about this stuff.

[NYCfixie]

Passing the hat around every so often is not a viable business model.

Unless you want to be the best - and last - buggy whip maker.


Little surprised he's so open about the $..I wonder if it has tax repercussions.
Probably not until someone makes a purchase and Riv ships product. Those credits are like gift cards, a debt to be paid in the future on the balance sheet. The 215k is not free money but I am sure you already know that.


P.S. I wish them well no matter what happens but this might be the last time he can throw a hail mary or pass the hat around. This was very public and very different compared other times when he has just asked for orders.

[R3awak3n]

It's kind of like the cult of Apple. :help::bike:

except its not

[tuscanyswe]

Wow

This is so much more than i could have ever guessed.
Yeah my 10$ does feel like a bucket in the ocean but i have to say im really glad there is an ocean of cyclists out there appreciating good stuff!

Also like that he choose to share the number! :banana:

[redir]

except its not

They both have fervent customer bases, charismatic leadership and a product that ties them all together.

I'm glad they are still around, I really am, it's just odd is all.

[chiasticon]

They both have fervent customer bases, charismatic leadership and a product that ties them all together.except one company is wildly successful and (usually) pushing cutting edge products. the other doesn't seem to want to change, at all, ever, and just ran the most recent of several GoFundMe-style rescue-the-company campaigns.

[bobswire]

He could re-introduce frames in the mold of MB-1 in 27.5 version and the XO series in 700 and 650-B versions (two of my favorite frames from back when) then market his own products like Velo Orange and be done with it instead of retailing Nitto and Dia Combe at prices higher than can be found elsewhere. He was ahead of his time then stayed there though most of my bikes have followed along his thoughts in comfort, practically and aesthetics and why I'm riding a BMC Monster Cross at present though I recently purchased a Soma Stanyan,new version that goes back to quill stems but allow tires up to 35mm slicks/file tread.

[FlashUNC]

They both have fervent customer bases, charismatic leadership and a product that ties them all together.

I'm glad they are still around, I really am, it's just odd is all.

One company has more free cash on hand than any other company in the history of humankind.

The other has to ask for donations by Monday to keep the doors open to avoid a cash flow crisis.

They're....not the same.

[raygunner]

It's amazing & awesome to see how many pitched in & helped out Riv.

But personally I never want to see a mention of their finances again. This include payroll, exchange rates, cash flow, etc.

[redir]

Sometimes it's difficult to try and be funny over the Internet.

Good for Riv, I hope the best for them and their fervent base :D

[mt2u77]

Hope they can make it work. I fear this is a case where a lump sum of smart money might be better medicine than a no strings attached handout. The former would come with oversight, new ideas, and force some tough but necessary changes, but the latter doesn't force anything to change.

[bfd]

It's amazing & awesome to see how many pitched in & helped out Riv.

But personally I never want to see a mention of their finances again. This include payroll, exchange rates, cash flow, etc.

There was a guy selling chainrings at a really low price. My buddy and I bought a 130bcd 46t triplizer and a 74bcd 30t chainring for like $20 plus shipping. It was a good deal, but I didn't realize that the seller was pledging all the money to Riv?! So he contributed $600 towards their cause.

Will it help? Definitely. Will they continue to do this, probably. Riv really needs to bring in their accountant and figure out not only their inventory, but direction of what they want to do. I didn't realize they now have 13 employees?! That seem like a lot - too much?!

Also, they make some strange looking bikes that apparently has a following. But the double top tube thing or bikes with no top tube look cheap and don't seem like serious bikes.

Good Luck To Riv!

[spacemen3]

He could re-introduce frames in the mold of MB-1 in 27.5 version and the XO series in 700 and 650-B versions (two of my favorite frames from back when)

Amen. :beer:

[cloudguy]

Passing the hat around every so often is not a viable business model.

Perhaps they should reclassify as a non-profit charity (the Church of Rivendell) and go from there. :eek:

[bikinchris]

Where are these bicycles?? I just don't see them around and I look at every bicycle, I just do. Whether I'm riding, walking, driving, kicking it outside at a coffee shop, I check out bikes. I live in the South Bay Area but I'm also up in San Francisco a ton. Big family on in-laws side so I'm always on the go. When I'm in Sacramento I'm all over the American River Bike Trail. I never see these frames.

Just hang around somewhere people ride new bikes built to act like they are 40 to 50 year old bikes,

[bicycletricycle]

Where are these bicycles?? I just don't see them around and I look at every bicycle, I just do. Whether I'm riding, walking, driving, kicking it outside at a coffee shop, I check out bikes. I live in the South Bay Area but I'm also up in San Francisco a ton. Big family on in-laws side so I'm always on the go. When I'm in Sacramento I'm all over the American River Bike Trail. I never see these frames.

Riv products are very niche. I don't know why one would expect to see them all the time. A lot of companies are successful selling products that I have never seen.

[p nut]

I got this and the original bailout email asking to buy the $10 “bonds” (which inspired zero confidence in them as a viable company).

My only thought is, if they’re struggling in THIS economy......yikes. Hope that recession cycle is further off than not. Best of luck to them.

[peanutgallery]

Would be much more willing to provide him with a gift certificate for the services of my accountant. Every few now and again we have to revisit how money works, it's never a fun conversation.

As an idle curiosity, I too am curious as to how $215k in gift certificates for life gets carried around on the books? It's a liability that will float around year after year, can you really spend it or does it have to be set aside and restricted and when do you eventually get taxed on it? How does it affect your credit with vendors? The California Dept of Revenue audit should be interesting as it will definitely be a line item that draws attention

Good luck to Ross and I hope he learns/adjusts as Rivendell/Bridgestone has quite a history in the biz and is better with the market

For the record, the MB-0 was a POS, irregardless of wheel size don't attempt that again. The the MB-1 and MB-2 were much better bikes as far as spec and construction. The MB-0 was made of tubing that was way too thin/flexy and came with pin holes in the welds...stock, it's probably the reason Ross hates go fast bikes to this day. Also had a bunch of weird mavic parts that were proprietary as far as crank lengths and stuff like that. It took me several tries to get an MB-0 that was sufficient to actually ride. MB-1 and MB-2 were the way to go

[adamhell]

i live and bike commute in san francisco and i see at least 1-2 rivendells daily. i have seen them all over the bay area, especially the east bay and walnut creek.

but I understand not seeing them in the south bay. I haven't spent much time in and around San Jose but I can't imagine it's as big a following as in SF or the east bay. That being said I've seen a few in Los Gatos.

I hope they survive.

[Mikej]

Yeah, and Grant is over across the street bashing companies who do business the military...

[taz-t]

Yeah, and Grant is over across the street bashing companies who do business the military...

You don't know what you're talking about.

Might want to get your 'Grants' straight.

[Ken Robb]

Yeah, and Grant is over across the street bashing companies who do business the military...

Grant who? I don't think the Grant Petersen I know would bash anyone.

[Kontact]

Would be much more willing to provide him with a gift certificate for the services of my accountant. Every few now and again we have to revisit how money works, it's never a fun conversation.

As an idle curiosity, I too am curious as to how $215k in gift certificates for life gets carried around on the books? It's a liability that will float around year after year, can you really spend it or does it have to be set aside and restricted and when do you eventually get taxed on it? How does it affect your credit with vendors? The California Dept of Revenue audit should be interesting as it will definitely be a line item that draws attention

Good luck to Ross and I hope he learns/adjusts as Rivendell/Bridgestone has quite a history in the biz and is better with the market

For the record, the MB-0 was a POS, irregardless of wheel size don't attempt that again. The the MB-1 and MB-2 were much better bikes as far as spec and construction. The MB-0 was made of tubing that was way too thin/flexy and came with pin holes in the welds...stock, it's probably the reason Ross hates go fast bikes to this day. Also had a bunch of weird mavic parts that were proprietary as far as crank lengths and stuff like that. It took me several tries to get an MB-0 that was sufficient to actually ride. MB-1 and MB-2 were the way to go

Who's Ross?

[charliedid]

Would be much more willing to provide him with a gift certificate for the services of my accountant. Every few now and again we have to revisit how money works, it's never a fun conversation.

As an idle curiosity, I too am curious as to how $215k in gift certificates for life gets carried around on the books? It's a liability that will float around year after year, can you really spend it or does it have to be set aside and restricted and when do you eventually get taxed on it? How does it affect your credit with vendors? The California Dept of Revenue audit should be interesting as it will definitely be a line item that draws attention

Good luck to Ross and I hope he learns/adjusts as Rivendell/Bridgestone has quite a history in the biz and is better with the market

For the record, the MB-0 was a POS, irregardless of wheel size don't attempt that again. The the MB-1 and MB-2 were much better bikes as far as spec and construction. The MB-0 was made of tubing that was way too thin/flexy and came with pin holes in the welds...stock, it's probably the reason Ross hates go fast bikes to this day. Also had a bunch of weird mavic parts that were proprietary as far as crank lengths and stuff like that. It took me several tries to get an MB-0 that was sufficient to actually ride. MB-1 and MB-2 were the way to go


Hard to argue but they sure rode great before breaking! FWIW both my Ritchey P-Team bikes rusted to bits. Same same...

[Mikej]

Grant who? I don't think the Grant Petersen I know would bash anyone.

Really ? Sorry to the Riv guy then. I always thought they were the same Grant-

[hokoman]

Just bringing this to the front because I received an email about their 'slow' holiday and encouraging people to buy $20 gift certificates with a sob story. I don't know how they raised that much funding the first time around - what's that saying? fool me once...

The bike industry has changed and we've watched a lot of shops close. They need to change their business model (I get it, it's easier to say than do), or we're going to get the same email in 6 months... Best wishes to them.

[charliedid]

I just read the email too....and Unsubscribed.

I've been a fan since Bridgestone but I'm tired of the begging and complaining.

Grant needs to figure out a different model, bring on a partner or throw in the towel.

I'm out.

[Burnette]

Just bringing this to the front because I received an email about their 'slow' holiday and encouraging people to buy $20 gift certificates with a sob story. I don't know how they raised that much funding the first time around - what's that saying? fool me once...

The bike industry has changed and we've watched a lot of shops close shop. They need to change their business model (I get it, it's easier to say than do), or we're going to get the same email in 6 months... Best wishes to them.

Isn't the holiday season the biggest take of the year for bike stuff too? If they are hurting after the biggest sales revenue days now I don't see how it improves in January and February.

At what point does it resemble a pyramid scheme versus a survival ploy?

[bikinchris]

Just bringing this to the front because I received an email about their 'slow' holiday and encouraging people to buy $20 gift certificates with a sob story. I don't know how they raised that much funding the first time around - what's that saying? fool me once...

The bike industry has changed and we've watched a lot of shops close shop. They need to change their business model (I get it, it's easier to say than do), or we're going to get the same email in 6 months... Best wishes to them.

Just like shops that deal only with women or high end bikes, he has to realize that focusing on people who want friction shifting and ride flat pedals is too narrow. Even for internet sales. IMO, he need to try to widen his price ranges and actually try to appeal to fitness riders (you know those dern lycra wearing people) and index shifting. His quixotic idea of the ideal rider is just not going to make enough money. Of course everything I have read coming from him in the past would set him up to being called a hypocrite if he does.

[dancinkozmo]

I just read the email too....and Unsubscribed.

I've been a fan since Bridgestone but I'm tired of the begging and complaining.

Grant needs to figure out a different model, bring on a partner or throw in the towel.

I'm out.

agreed...and unsubscribed as well

[peanutgallery]

I guess riding a bike and looking like you just rolled out of a garrison keillor event isn't a thing anymore

There's a comfortable living to be made in the bike biz, but you have to be realistic and learn how to listen. Begging for gifts and taking on partners is death by a thousand cuts. Been a part of a sinking ship in my life, it sucks...and it's hard to listen

[raygunner]

I actually tried to buy two things from Riv for Xmas but as one item was out of stock I only purchased one.

After seeing this thread (didn't receive the email) I went ahead and got myself a cool Riv shirt.

I love 'em but don't get me started. No wool Riv jerseys but plenty of bandanas and axes.

[-holiday76]

yeah. Change or die, for the most part. Did you notice how Velo Orange used to jsut be about cheese and steel but now it's more like Crust Bikes meets Cheese? That's because Ultraromance and his cronies changed things, or you need to get on board or figure out how to sell your **** on walmart.com

[Buzz Killington]

Have no fear, that baby carrying bike will be their savior.


Someday, Rivendell will be one of those business school case studies.

On a positive note, that shorter chainstay Hunqapillar is a dream ride of mine.

[dancinkozmo]

Have no fear, that baby carrying bike will be their savior.

.

what is up with that ??? how much weed have they been smoking since legalization ???

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/RB-1_52_1024x1024.jpg?v=1545873385

[-holiday76]

what is up with that ??? how much weed have they been smoking since legalization ???



All of it, Bro.

[R3awak3n]

the thing too is they could have made some cool bikes, they already had the factory connections, why not make bikes people want? make some crust style bikes instead of making double top tube bikes no one wants or other calamities.

[FlashUNC]

Wait, you mean asking people for gift card purchases regularly to keep the cash flow going is not a sustainable business model?

Shocker.

I just imagine a warehouse full of axes in Walnut Creek that they can't move, standing around baffled why they aren't selling like hotcakes. What do cyclists need? Axes!

[charliedid]

Isn't the holiday season the biggest take of the year for bike stuff too? If they are hurting after the biggest sales revenue days now I don't see how it improves in January and February.

At what point does it resemble a pyramid scheme versus a survival ploy?

Holiday has never been great for bikes. People buy them in season when they can ride them. Bike shop bikes anyway.

[glepore]

Annual gofundme. Interesting business model.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Burnette]

Holiday has never been great for bikes. People buy them in season when they can ride them. Bike shop bikes anyway.

Thanks for that. Well that's good news for Rivendell. I thought if they missed the meat of sales they would surely starve over the lean months.

[belopsky]

Sounds like their prototype is a failure too

FLASH: I loaded it with 40lb and rode it and it's as squiggly and a sopping noodle. Scary squiggly, not for the meek or faint or anybody not able to keep his or her composure, for sure. The YEPP is rated to 45lb, and the Internet says a typical 45 pounder is 5 years old, and I say that's old enough to pedal, at least on one of those trailer bikes. Or a rear trailer, or something other than a front-mounter like this. Vince rode it, too.

So we're going to experiment with adding bracing tubes, and maybe bigger tubes. The length is great. We just have to stiffen it.

[belopsky]

Buy a credit if you can...if you think you'd be buying something in the next month or two, anyway. It'd help. But we aren't "Hail Mary" desperate. This isn't another one of those. we are not begging but we sort of are

[FlashUNC]

Never mind the bike sale bit where it's casually thrown in the business needs the money more than Grant needs the bike.

Just...ugh....

[AngryScientist]

I just imagine a warehouse full of axes in Walnut Creek that they can't move, standing around baffled why they aren't selling like hotcakes. What do cyclists need? Axes!

thank you flash.

i needed a good laugh tonight. maybe i didnt need to laugh the mixed cocktail i'm sipping out my nose, but i did need a laugh. hilarious!

Axes!!

[sailorboy]

He should take it full circle and seriously promote the East market, as in Japan and the far east. Isn't that how Rapha is keeping it together right now?

[roguedog]

Man,..I concur. They should be pushing their bikes as the first all road bikes. Holy cow.If this isn't their time..I dunno what is! Seriously..am I crazy? They should be killing it in this market.

What am I missing?

And yeah..I've always wondered ...What is up with the axes and pine tar soap? Does grizzly Adams ride their bikes? I've seriously wondered this but always thought it was a favor for some friend of Grant's.

[FlashUNC]

thank you flash.

i needed a good laugh tonight. maybe i didnt need to laugh the mixed cocktail i'm sipping out my nose, but i did need a laugh. hilarious!

Axes!!

My sympathies for your sinuses. That's never fun.

But seriously, a bike company's first item in a holiday gift guide is two forms of boutique axe?

I commend Grant for what Rivendell does and the philosophy behind the place, but boutique axes and buying in 40 copies of a book on a whim that you have no clue will sell provide more insight into why the business is where it is than anything else.

[belopsky]

Riv once told me it’s a waste of their time to pack and ship small orders to me.

Do with that as you wish.

[ultraman6970]

Never go to their website because im not in their bikes, but after reading axes and soap had to go and look... well...there must be a reason why they tried to expand the thing with axes and soap, would love to know why those two in specific, maybe helping a friend?

They continued keeping their line of ideas, not much of companies online selling their type of stuff so they had their clientele, now... imo the problem is that sells are slow all over the place. Is not that an online store killed them, their niche in bikes is super specific.

Hope gets better for them, the only thing is that I hope they toss that baby carrier bike thing, bad idea.


"Riv once told me it’s a waste of their time to pack and ship small orders to me.", probably now they are realizing that the tiny stuff is what would keep them a float.

[NYCfixie]

Not sure why they ever stopped making the Rivendell Rambouillet.

There is still a market for that somewhat traditional frame/bike especially if you look at all the other companies who still make it: Surly, All-City, Black Mountain Cycles, etc.

[bfd]

Not sure why they ever stopped making the Rivendell Rambouillet.

There is still a market for that somewhat traditional frame/bike especially if you look at all the other companies who still make it: Surly, All-City, Black Mountain Cycles, etc.

Actually, the Ramboullet was a production lugged steel frameset that followed in the footsteps of the original Rivendell Standard. The frames you mentioned from Surly, All-City, Black Mtn Cycles are all tig-welded framesets and cheaper to make.

Rivendell has come out with its own tig-welded frameset called a Rodini or something like that. The Roadeo is a "lighter" lugged steel frameset that I think replaced the Rambo.

Whatever, Riv has gotten away from what it was and I too am another who stopped following what they offered once their focus was on axes and double top tube framesets.

Good Luck!

[CunegoFan]

Man,..I concur. They should be pushing their bikes as the first all road bikes. Holy cow.If this isn't their time..I dunno what is! Seriously..am I crazy? They should be killing it in this market.

What am I missing?


Yup.

Grant is hopelessly out of touch. Rivendell should have been the OG hipster brand.
With gravel bikes the market has moved to the general area that Grant always promoted but he totally missed out. Being completely out of ideas--at least ideas that anyone would actually buy--he could have just copied Surly and used something other than gaspipe. Instead his bikes veered off into bizarro world.

[bfd]

Yup.

Grant is hopelessly out of touch....he could have just copied Surly and used something other than gaspipe. Instead his bikes veered off into bizarro world.

But isn't that what the Rodini is suppose to be? A "road" bike with heavier tubing then say the Roadeo? Yes, he is focusing on a bunch of other weird shape bikes, but they still have the Roadeo, Roadini, and of
course the custom Rivendell!

I'm always amazed that Grant never tries to show his "road" bikes with more modern parts. Yes, I know he's not into e-shifting like di2, but he could show his bikes fitted with DA/Ultegra/105 mechanical? Hope they can figure it out!

Good Luck!

[jtbadge]

I don't know, the Rambouillet had much more traditional or sensible geometry than the long chainstay/tall headtube for long chainstay/tall headtube's sake that all of their current bikes seem to have. Their lack of middle of the road/all-around offerings has always been a huge turnoff for me.

Like, I would ride the hell out of this bike. If it had Shimano or SRAM.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/45/72/51/45725175afb5e215d5e663f568144894.jpg

This Blériot also looks way more sensible than most of their current stuff.

https://theradavist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Kyle-From-Outer-Shell-and-His-Beausage-Rivendell-Bleriot-1-1335x890.jpg

Regardless, begging for handouts every few months while continuing the same very specific and esoteric offerings isn't a good look.

[bfd]

I was wrong, Riv does advertise a bike with modern parts - looks like Sram Force:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/products/f-Roadeo-2_1600x.jpg?v=1521477227

Riv advertises it as their "fastest" bike too!

In contrast, the Roadini, a tig-welded frameset doesn't seem to work, even as a 1x!

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/products/Rivendell-Roadini-Road-Bicycle-Square-1_1600x.jpg?v=1533594575

Good Luck!

[jtbadge]

I was wrong, Riv does advertise a bike with modern parts - looks like Sram Force:
Riv advertises it as their "fastest" bike too!

Sure, but a sold out $2600 frameset. Also Force 10 is almost ten years old at this point.

[seanile]

You’re keeping us together, and we thank you for that and will never, ever ask again. — G

well, i suppose he forgot the last line of his initial fundraiser email.

[tctyres]

Riv once told me it’s a waste of their time to pack and ship small orders to me.

Do with that as you wish.

I am not pro or anti Riv, but you're also the customer Bob Jackson refused to sell to. Riv's comment is shades of that. It isn't exactly a one-off thing. Sorry, I don't mean to pull skeletons out, but there's some context to your comment from Riv's side that we aren't seeing.

[sonicCows]

Black Mountain Cycles, Surly, and Soma stole the Riv thunder...think about how many people bought Surlys after reading Grant's writing on steel frames, they definitely got his message. But people who had the extra dollars at his price points could almost get a frame from a framebuilder instead of his Rivendells.

[merckx]

I think the iconic musa frame sets that allowed riv to find a foothold in this market simply became too expensive to be profitable. Likely the horizon from order to delivery also extended too far for most folks. Frame sets like the musa Atlantis, ram, roadeo, hunq among others were lost. A bloody shame. They should be investing in mit frames like the iconic set above rather than the profoundly quirky ones currently offered. I like grant. He is very good for the sport of cycling, the industry, and for us. I hope that someone grabs his hand and pulls him to the light. Btw, that silver ram above is sublime.

[dancinkozmo]

You’re keeping us together, and we thank you for that and will never, ever axe again. — G

fixed it

[William]

And yeah..I've always wondered ...What is up with the axes and pine tar soap? Does grizzly Adams ride their bikes?


I've heard the Guy on a Buffalo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ4T9CQA0UM) is a regular pine-tar soap and axe customer...but they'll only sell to him if he buys in bulk.:p

Pine-tar soap and axe's as a business focus for hipster lumberjacks won't likely take you too far...which will lead to, well, you already know.

https://vimeo.com/146203325







William

[belopsky]

Grant cried that no one wants to wait and or pay for a custom, though those are still available. Moved a lot of the models to MIT but added long stays and made them less traditional looking to fit a wider range of riders per each size.
Most of the models are for upright, pull back bars. They’re the equivalent of surly with overlap of models except not a single disc in sight

[belopsky]

I am not pro or anti Riv, but you're also the customer Bob Jackson refused to sell to. Riv's comment is shades of that. It isn't exactly a one-off thing. Sorry, I don't mean to pull skeletons out, but there's some context to your comment from Riv's side that we aren't seeing.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

Bob Jackson has sold me everything I’ve wanted and the only thing they didn’t want to do is build me a custom bike because they don’t do custom frames anymore.

[belopsky]

I was wrong, Riv does advertise a bike with modern parts - looks like Sram Force:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/products/f-Roadeo-2_1600x.jpg?v=1521477227

Riv advertises it as their "fastest" bike too!

In contrast, the Roadini, a tig-welded frameset doesn't seem to work, even as a 1x!

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/products/Rivendell-Roadini-Road-Bicycle-Square-1_1600x.jpg?v=1533594575

Good Luck!i think if the Roadini was set up like the roadeo it’d look nicer

This looks like a nice sport tourer? It’s pretty stout but from all accounts I’ve seen does ride nice
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4604/38565497770_616b5e8c0d_b.jpg

[raygunner]

[QUOTE=belopsky;2476461]Riv once told me it’s a waste of their time to pack and ship small orders to me.

How did they convey this? Did they write "waste of our time" on the box in marker?

I just purchased a small item from them and received a pleasant confirmation email.

[ashwa64]

gransfors bruk axes are badass and the world is better with riv in existence, imo

[belopsky]

[QUOTE=belopsky;2476461]Riv once told me it’s a waste of their time to pack and ship small orders to me.

How did they convey this? Did they write "waste of our time" on the box in marker?

I just purchased a small item from them and received a pleasant confirmation email.

No, it was the conversation that followed. I can’t find the emails or the conversation, maybe it was on RBW list that I left.

The short of it I placed a small order, it was shipped via ups surepost that took longer than usps first class would. I didn’t like that they used surepost and charged me $9 for it. Blamed me for not contacting them and asking for usps (it wasn’t an option on their site).

Fully transparently, told me that the time it takes to ship a $10 order is sometimes more than a $200 and they’re not making money when they do that.

That’s kind of the short of it.

Overall I get it and it’s water under the bridge, but I don’t shop there anymore. The brass ferrules I wanted long ago I found elsewhere in a big container (wheels industries, I think?) and I’ve yet to run out.


To be more on topic: I appreciate rivbikes offerings of some parts that are unique or hard to find. I’ve owned a few of their bikes over the years, pre ordered the frank jones last year.

Their old bikes appealed to me, their new do not. Grant wrote a pretty out there post about mountain bikes recently.

Rivbike- not for me, anymore. Wish them the best

[raygunner]

Firstly, I really want a custom fat tire road bike from them. It's gotta be orange.

Secondly, there are bunches of good business related advice in the preceding pages of this thread. I wish them the best.

Third, while I enjoy their brand and their idiosyncrasies i did not like seeing the canniblization of the Atlantis and Homer to meld with the rest of their MIT line-up.

[raygunner]

[QUOTE=raygunner;2476579]

No, it was the conversation that followed. I can’t find the emails or the conversation, maybe it was on RBW list that I left.

The short of it I placed a small order, it was shipped via ups surepost that took longer than usps first class would. I didn’t like that they used surepost and charged me $9 for it. Blamed me for not contacting them and asking for usps (it wasn’t an option on their site).

Fully transparently, told me that the time it takes to ship a $10 order is sometimes more than a $200 and they’re not making money when they do that.

Rivbike- not for me, anymore. Wish them the best

Their shipping dept is a actually the one thing that's super great. They're really fast and everything is extremely well packed. Yeah, shipping costs money but it's nothing to get sore about.

[tctyres]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

Bob Jackson has sold me everything I’ve wanted and the only thing they didn’t want to do is build me a custom bike because they don’t do custom frames anymore.

Sorry, I didn't understand that about Bob Jackson.

Riv said that to you for a reason, that's all; and they have a side to that interaction that is not posted here.

[gdw]

gransfors bruks axes are badass and the world is better with riv in existence, imo

Grant jumped the shark many years ago. Urban lumbersexuals have moved on to other trendy toys and encouraging Rivendell cult members to make fires while bike packing/camping is kinda irresponsible especially when you live in a state that has major fires every year.

[Burnette]

So much baggage and backwards business think from Rivi, I wonder, besides the begging, what their survival strategy is going forward?

The bicycle market is volatile and if you're stuck in a hole I don't see how you will be able to react when necessary. How long can they live off of being quirky?

[eddief]

seems as if Velo Orange took most of what Riv was doing and bested Riv in nearly every way. A wider open cult without the overt dogma and way more entrprenureship. Riv bikes seem to be prettier but that may be the only distinguishing factor.

[peanutgallery]

The next step for Riv is...wait for it...artisanal firewood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI

So much baggage and backwards business think from Rivi, I wonder, besides the begging, what their survival strategy is going forward?

The bicycle market is volatile and if you're stuck in a hole I don't see how you will be able to react when necessary. How long can they live off of being quirky?

[bfd]

i think if the Roadini was set up like the roadeo it’d look nicer

This looks like a nice sport tourer? It’s pretty stout but from all accounts I’ve seen does ride nice
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4604/38565497770_616b5e8c0d_b.jpg

There you go. But it is interesting that Grant/Riv doesn't seem to want to advertise their bikes in this manner. Instead, I think they put out the Roadeo (which appears to be discontinued?!) and Roadini (which is basically tig-welded with an unappealing seat tube lug) as something to fill their lineup as they push their upright/pull back bar philosophy. With things like double top tube and other weird styles and then their need to ask for money, it is obvious things aren't working.

Bottom line, I use to be a subscriber and interested in Riv. I do like their custom Rivendell. But at $3500 for a frameset, there are many other custom framesets I would prefer. Further, now the only time I hear about them is in threads like this. Not good.

Good Luck!

[NHAero]

For $3,500 you could have a full custom Dave Anderson frame/fork with options, from a builder working at the peak of the current art. Dave Kirk's prices are modestly higher. Two of the best builers anywhere. I imagine there are other fine builders with pricing below $3,500 for a full custom. So what's the reason again for a custom Riv?

[bfd]

For $3,500 you could have a full custom Dave Anderson frame/fork with options, from a builder working at the peak of the current art. Dave Kirk's prices are modestly higher. Two of the best builers anywhere. I imagine there are other fine builders with pricing below $3,500 for a full custom. So what's the reason again for a custom Riv?

Good question. There's a lot of excellent builders who charge that much, if not less! Heck, even Rivendell's builder, Mark Nobilette, charges less with his lugged framesets starting at around $2800!

So what do you get? Well, if you listen to the Rivendell-tifosi, you can only get a frameset designed by Grant Petersen himself. Remember, although it is called a "custom," this frame has to meet with Grant's approval. So not only does he choose the geometry specifically for your body shape and riding style, e.g., think Japanese sports touring bike from the late 80s, he also specifies the "look." That means no flames, neon paint jobs or anything that doesn't meet his standards. Is that enough to justify the $3500 price tag? To the tifosi, yes!

Of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

[zmalwo]

$215,000 is a pretty big number, at least they could have offered some shares of their company to certain big donors. bailing out a private business by donation just seems wrong.

[echelon_john]

Bob Jackson absolutely still makes custom frames. Got one sitting right here!


I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

Bob Jackson has sold me everything I’ve wanted and the only thing they didn’t want to do is build me a custom bike because they don’t do custom frames anymore.

[54ny77]

Interesting business model. Those employees might want to start a side gig....as a launching pad for once this place goes kaput.

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/post-holiday

"Starting off with this, but it gets way better:

Holiday sales here were lousy. We lost $2,900 today--calculated by the cost of keeping the doors open, the daily overhead, and the net profit on sales that came in. Overall, a good year, but we could use a little boost. How about a store credit for $20? Spend it whenever. This isn't another Hail Mary thing. We're not that terrified this time around. It's just that we are draining too fast from a reservoir that's not where it ought to be, and if you can buy credit here, please do. It isn't risky, I promise. This is the nature of a business that is underfunded and requires relatively huge outlays of money months in advance of receiving the inventory that takes six months to a year to sell."

[roguedog]

I have always loved the orange Rambo and was also really bummed to have missed that model.

I get where Grant is coming from and he has been the voice in the wild for some time now. This "new" trend of all road and gravel bikes should be proof his decades of preaching has finally come to its own.

I get it and have an Atlantis though I've always sorta wished it was a Rambo. I am not anti Riv. I really want them to do well but if you can't make in this time of all times then I just gotta question..***.


1697972105

[FastforaSlowGuy]

$215,000 is a pretty big number, at least they could have offered some shares of their company to certain big donors. bailing out a private business by donation just seems wrong.



They’d likely end up violating a bunch of state and federal securities laws. A lot of folks think “crowdfunding” is suddenly a thing. Well, it sort of is, but with about 7 million strings attached.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BobbyJones]

The problem may not be with the product, but with the business practices.

[ashwa64]

Grant jumped the shark many years ago. Urban lumbersexuals have moved on to other trendy toys and encouraging Rivendell cult members to make fires while bike packing/camping is kinda irresponsible especially when you live in a state that has major fires every year.

yeah, because gravel bikes are passe, right?

i don't understand why so many here talk so much ****, i don't get it and it's why i avoided the place for years.

will have to look up what the **** a lumbersexual is...

[54ny77]

was cracking up when i read that term, had to look it up myself....

http://www.citypages.com/arts/meet-the-lumbersexual-hes-part-hipster-part-metrosexual-all-sartorial-man-6592215

"Behold the lovechild of the metrosexual and the hipster, a man who's incorporated a hearty helping of good ol' American masculinity into his sartorial sense of harmony.

He's old enough to grow a beard, but not so old as to hold hints of salt in the black pepper. He longs for the days when life wasn't complicated by big-city dreams, when a man could eke out a living off the land. But the closest he's gotten to downing a tree is stuffing his face with bûche de Noël.

The lumbersexual has an evergreen-loving heart, but he's a desk jockey trapped in the concrete jungle. His raw masculinity must be practiced after hours. When you actually find him in the woods, he's staring into the distance, wondering if Valencia is the right filter for this sunset Instagram post."

:p



will have to look up what the **** a lumbersexual is...

[Llewellyn]

For $3,500 you could have a full custom Dave Anderson frame/fork with options, from a builder working at the peak of the current art. Dave Kirk's prices are modestly higher. Two of the best builers anywhere. I imagine there are other fine builders with pricing below $3,500 for a full custom. So what's the reason again for a custom Riv?

With the current $US/$AU exchange rate you could probably get one of Dazza's creations as well. Much more bang for your buck than a Riv IMO.

[Ed-B]

I've been reading along with all these Rivendell posts for some time now, and while I can't say anything that differs much from other persectives, I think the situation is salvageable.

I was a card carrying BOB (Bridgestone Owner's Bunch) with Grant before he found himself out of work when Bridgestone left the US bicycle market. And I followed along into the early days of Rivendell. I could identify with his perspective on bikes, and the market in general. Twenty years ago, we were in sync. Those first Waterford Rivendell Road frames were perfect for my kind of riding, and they still resonate with me.

I ordered my first custom frame from Grant in 1997, a Joe Starck road, and I still have that frame, another Joe Starck custom, and a Heron road. There were several others too, four other Herons, two Rambouillets, a Quickbeam, and a Saluki. I sourced all of my Nitto bars, stems, seatposts, and many of my other components and bike stuff from Rivendell. The company was very influential, and a source of high quality products that I still use to this day.

In 2004 Grant resurrected the 650B wheel, and an early article in the Rivendell Reader about 650B conversions set me off on a course of all-road cycling that opened new avenues and forever changed my perspective on "road" bikes. I will be forever grateful that Grant took the chance to give 650B wheeled bicycles another lease on life.

But then, we diverged... The Rivendell frames and bikes went off on a tangent that didn't appeal to my interests or style. And I've moved on, adding modern bikes and tech to my cycling environment. Brifters, carbon, threadless forks, etc. It's all good!

In recent years the industry has picked up on this all-road, "Country Bike" thing, called it "Gravel" and incorporated modern tech into this genre to create a whole new growing market segment. Grant Petersen was there 15 years ago, but in my opinion he didn't drive it further. Other players hopped in, they're setting the direction, and they are profiting while Rivendell is picking up loose change on the side.

When I think about what the market offers now, and what people want in cycling, it's clear to me that Grant Petersen and Rivendell Bicycle Works have a story to tell, and could create a product suite that could be brought to the market with offerings that more people would happily buy.

It's not too late to make Rivendell Bicycle Works a profitable and growing company. I don't know if Grant Petersen can redirect the company and get on that track, but I'd love to see it happen.

[pbarry]

I've been reading along with all these Rivendell posts for some time now, and while I can't say anything that differs much from other persectives, I think the situation is salvageable.

I was a card carrying BOB (Bridgestone Owner's Bunch) with Grant before he found himself out of work when Bridgestone left the US bicycle market. And I followed along into the early days of Rivendell. I could identify with his perspective on bikes, and the market in general. Twenty years ago, we were in sync. Those first Waterford Rivendell Road frames were perfect for my kind of riding, and they still resonate with me.

I ordered my first custom frame from Grant in 1997, a Joe Starck road, and I still have that frame, another Joe Starck custom, and a Heron road. There were several others too, four other Herons, two Rambouillets, a Quickbeam, and a Saluki. I sourced all of my Nitto bars, stems, seatposts, and many of my other components and bike stuff from Rivendell. The company was very influential, and a source of high quality products that I still use to this day.

In 2004 Grant resurrected the 650B wheel, and an early article in the Rivendell Reader about 650B conversions set me off on a course of all-road cycling that opened new avenues and forever changed my perspective on "road" bikes. I will be forever grateful that Grant took the chance to give 650B wheeled bicycles another lease on life.

But then, we diverged... The Rivendell frames and bikes went off on a tangent that didn't appeal to my interests or style. And I've moved on, adding modern bikes and tech to my cycling environment. Brifters, carbon, threadless forks, etc. It's all good!

In recent years the industry has picked up on this all-road, "Country Bike" thing, called it "Gravel" and incorporated modern tech into this genre to create a whole new growing market segment. Grant Petersen was there 15 years ago, but in my opinion he didn't drive it further. Other players hopped in, they're setting the direction, and they are profiting while Rivendell is picking up loose change on the side.

When I think about what the market offers now, and what people want in cycling, it's clear to me that Grant Petersen and Rivendell Bicycle Works have a story to tell, and could create a product suite that could be brought to the market with offerings that more people would happily buy.

It's not too late to make Rivendell Bicycle Works a profitable and growing company. I don't know if Grant Petersen can redirect the company and get on that track, but I'd love to see it happen.

Me too, subscribing to the RR from day one. They lost me by the late 90's with the constant hand wringing and whining.

Yes, it is, given the intractable nature of the guy at the top. If they aren't seriously looking within to figure out "why?", and ready to make Big changes, they're not going to make it. What's the definition of insanity..? ;)

[belopsky]

Bob Jackson absolutely still makes custom frames. Got one sitting right here!

Define custom? Geometry? How old is it?

They absolutely told me that they stopped doing custom geometry

[Drmojo]

But
Grant did rekindle the childhood joy of riding bikes

[Drmojo]

my buddy- not a big time rider like most on this, um, elite forum, just got a Clem Smith. He has back issues, but rode the hell out of this bike on a crazy, rocky, dusty trail near Dunsmuir on his new Riv, while I could not keep up.
Yes, Soma, Velo Orange, and Jan at Compass-Rene Herse in 2 days- took Rivs biz but they started so many recent trends and this thread

Long live Rivedell!
The king is dead
Long live the king

[CunegoFan]

In recent years the industry has picked up on this all-road, "Country Bike" thing, called it "Gravel" and incorporated modern tech into this genre to create a whole new growing market segment. Grant Petersen was there 15 years ago, but in my opinion he didn't drive it further. Other players hopped in, they're setting the direction, and they are profiting while Rivendell is picking up loose change on the side.

It is no longer about versatile bikes that can be ridden by non-racers on a variety of surfaces. It is about recreating what cycling was imagined to be like in the 1930s...1920s...1910s. It keeps going backwards but comes complete with ancient soap recipes and shaving creams. In a few years the next Rivendell might look something like this.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/The_American_Velocipede.jpg/692px-The_American_Velocipede.jpg

The business is now based on quirky customers who intentionally seek out quirky products. If Grant was running a clothing company, he would be selling powdered wigs and breeches.

[cash05458]

Never really liked his bikes but then again folks have different tastes...but the phrase of the day has to be "Urban lumbersexuals"...:hello:

[MerckxMad]

Big Riv fan here. I own a Ram, Rom, Bleriot, Roadeo, Roadini and a Clem. Yeah, the needle got stuck. I don’t get the whole axe thing, but every time I ride a Riv I smile. A negligent driver broke my back in three places years back and the folks at Riv got me riding again because of their sensible fit theory and lifetime frames. The Clem even got me back on the trails. I don’t pretend to understand their business model or quirky projects, but my world is better for them being in it for as long as it lasts.

[charliedid]

I've been reading along with all these Rivendell posts for some time now, and while I can't say anything that differs much from other perspectives, I think the situation is salvageable.

I was a card carrying BOB (Bridgestone Owner's Bunch) with Grant before he found himself out of work when Bridgestone left the US bicycle market. And I followed along into the early days of Rivendell. I could identify with his perspective on bikes, and the market in general. Twenty years ago, we were in sync. Those first Waterford Rivendell Road frames were perfect for my kind of riding, and they still resonate with me.

I ordered my first custom frame from Grant in 1997, a Joe Starck road, and I still have that frame, another Joe Starck custom, and a Heron road. There were several others too, four other Herons, two Rambouillets, a Quickbeam, and a Saluki. I sourced all of my Nitto bars, stems, seatposts, and many of my other components and bike stuff from Rivendell. The company was very influential, and a source of high quality products that I still use to this day.

In 2004 Grant resurrected the 650B wheel, and an early article in the Rivendell Reader about 650B conversions set me off on a course of all-road cycling that opened new avenues and forever changed my perspective on "road" bikes. I will be forever grateful that Grant took the chance to give 650B wheeled bicycles another lease on life.

But then, we diverged... The Rivendell frames and bikes went off on a tangent that didn't appeal to my interests or style. And I've moved on, adding modern bikes and tech to my cycling environment. Brifters, carbon, threadless forks, etc. It's all good!

In recent years the industry has picked up on this all-road, "Country Bike" thing, called it "Gravel" and incorporated modern tech into this genre to create a whole new growing market segment. Grant Petersen was there 15 years ago, but in my opinion he didn't drive it further. Other players hopped in, they're setting the direction, and they are profiting while Rivendell is picking up loose change on the side.

When I think about what the market offers now, and what people want in cycling, it's clear to me that Grant Petersen and Rivendell Bicycle Works have a story to tell, and could create a product suite that could be brought to the market with offerings that more people would happily buy.

It's not too late to make Rivendell Bicycle Works a profitable and growing company. I don't know if Grant Petersen can redirect the company and get on that track, but I'd love to see it happen.

Me too, subscribing to the RR from day one. They lost me by the late 90's with the constant hand wringing and whining.

Yes, it is, given the intractable nature of the guy at the top. If they aren't seriously looking within to figure out "why?", and ready to make Big changes, they're not going to make it. What's the definition of insanity..? ;)

Grant isn't looking for advice but he could use a product and business manager. He should hire Anna Schwinn or someone else half his age and a person who has worked for Trek or Specialized to help him formulate a cohesive and sellable line of bikes, all made in Taiwan. He could still sell the small run bikes and the quirky stuff that makes Grant Grant but he could also survive and take a few people along for the ride if he was willing.

Unfortunately Grant has made more money for other people than himself. Some of these people (read Trek Specialized etc.) owe him a real thanks but that won't pay the bills. He also has maybe single handedly had a larger impact on small builders and the resurgent interest in steel and boutique buyers than anyone else including builders. Any of them.

If not he will end up closing shop because I don't think he could sell it outright and watch the changes from the sidelines. He needs to stick close but give a few people the latitude to make some tough choices. Think Patagonia and Yvon Chouinard, who still drives the culture but other people drive the business.

He can still do this, but this needs to be the last time he asks for a handout at the end of the year. It's just too off-putting. I'd rather give $100 to my favorite charity than Grant, today.

I say all of this out of real respect and admiration for Grant. I wish he and Rivendell the best.

[palincss]

was cracking up when i read that term, had to look it up myself....

http://www.citypages.com/arts/meet-the-lumbersexual-hes-part-hipster-part-metrosexual-all-sartorial-man-6592215

"Behold the lovechild of the metrosexual and the hipster, a man who's incorporated a hearty helping of good ol' American masculinity into his sartorial sense of harmony.

He's old enough to grow a beard, but not so old as to hold hints of salt in the black pepper. He longs for the days when life wasn't complicated by big-city dreams, when a man could eke out a living off the land. But the closest he's gotten to downing a tree is stuffing his face with bûche de Noël.

The lumbersexual has an evergreen-loving heart, but he's a desk jockey trapped in the concrete jungle. His raw masculinity must be practiced after hours. When you actually find him in the woods, he's staring into the distance, wondering if Valencia is the right filter for this sunset Instagram post."

:p

The author of that surely must have been channelling Somewhere West of Laramie.

https://americanheritagecenter.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/westoflaramie.jpg?w=640

[cloudguy]

The next step for Riv is...wait for it...artisanal firewood

Or artisanal pencil sharpening, which is actually a "real" thing:

http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com/about.html

[SlowPokePete]

Or artisanal pencil sharpening, which is actually a "real" thing:

http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com/about.html

This is hard to believe.

SPP

[Burnette]

Or artisanal pencil sharpening, which is actually a "real" thing:

http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com/about.html

Looking at Etsy I've seen some real crap sell but this is over the top! We should undercut his price by half and offer colos. Ka-ching!

[Jad]

Or artisanal pencil sharpening, which is actually a "real" thing:

http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com/about.html

So good:
"With an electric pencil sharpener, a pencil is meat," Rees said. "It's this thoughtless, Brutalist aesthetic. For me, it's almost a point of pride that I would be slower than an electric pencil sharpener."

[Louis]

Rivendell's not the only cycling-oriented outfit that's done axes. Although these guys just posed with it; I don't think they were actually selling it. Nevertheless, it was pretty silly at the time (and still is).

https://brandt-sorenson.com/

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697916698&stc=1&d=1458095848

[William]

Or artisanal pencil sharpening, which is actually a "real" thing:

http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com/about.html

I have a Vintage VacuHold - V8 in my shop and I perform vintage sharpening for a mere $150.00 plus free shipping. Anyone here over the age of forty knows how precise these are for sharpening the old #2 (or any pencil for that matter). I even include the shavings and sign each pencil.








William:)

[tctyres]

I have a Vintage VacuHold - V8 in my shop and I perform vintage sharpening for a mere $150.00 plus free shipping. Anyone here over the age of forty knows how precise these are for sharpening the old #2 (or any pencil for that matter). I even include the shavings and sign each pencil
William:)

That looks like the Draftsman Team Livery. It gives pencils a smooth and aero shape and ability to hold lines well. The crank on that looks to be a pro model.

[pbarry]

Beautiful work, William! :beer:

[David Kirk]

So I'm not a finance guy by any means so this question might be silly.....but isn't this the reason that they offer a "line of credit"?

I always assumed that one of the reasons this financial tool exists is to help even out cash flow of a seasonal business. Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

A sincere question.

dave

[tuscanyswe]

I have a Vintage VacuHold - V8 in my shop and I perform vintage sharpening for a mere $150.00 plus free shipping. Anyone here over the age of forty knows how precise these are for sharpening the old #2 (or any pencil for that matter). I even include the shavings and sign each pencil.

William:)

I actually realize i miss well sharpened pencil when i see this! I must go buy some!

[Louis]

You're wasting your time if you go to William for the work. Those Vacu-Holds are junk, and can't hold a candle to my Berol Giant.

Web pic, but identical to mine:

https://i.etsystatic.com/5814012/d/il/b1c915/1643070140/il_340x270.1643070140_bn02.jpg?version=0

[Louis]

Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

One guess and one snarky comment:

1) They might have tried, and the banks said "No."

2) Why pay a bank interest, when you can get free loans from your customers?

[William]

You're wasting your time if you go to William for the work. Those Vacu-Holds are junk, and can't hold a candle to my Berol Giant.

Web pic, but identical to mine:

https://i.etsystatic.com/5814012/d/il/b1c915/1643070140/il_340x270.1643070140_bn02.jpg?version=0

Naw, those were on the low end of the APSCO line, known for bearings and crank spindles wearing out early. They do okay though, kind of the 105 of the line. :)






William

[Louis]

Naw, those were on the low end of the APSCO line, known for bearings and crank spindles wearing out early. They do okay though, kind of the 105 of the line. :)

Everyone knows that 105 is the best value out there. Sure, snooty folks can pay twice as much for a bit shinier polish on the Vacu-Hold, but the Berol is where the true sharpening craftsman goes for his tools.

[tctyres]

You're wasting your time if you go to William for the work. Those Vacu-Holds are junk, and can't hold a candle to my Berol Giant.

Web pic, but identical to mine:

https://i.etsystatic.com/5814012/d/il/b1c915/1643070140/il_340x270.1643070140_bn02.jpg?version=0

Plus, everyone knows that condition is everything. We'd need a drive side shot with a close up of any damage to even evaluate yours.

[Hellgate]

Axe throwing is a thing. One of the women at work went and said it was pretty fun. I asked if they served shots...

Oh, they have a league too.


https://www.urbanaxes.com/

[tctyres]

So I'm not a finance guy by any means so this question might be silly.....but isn't this the reason that they offer a "line of credit"?

I always assumed that one of the reasons this financial tool exists is to help even out cash flow of a seasonal business. Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

A sincere question.

dave

My guess is that money from the bank comes with deadlines and/or collateral in some form attached to it. It might also be that the company is maxed out in debt relative to income, or it might just be, as inferred, that free money from customers is easier to manage.


Starting off with this, but it gets way better:

Holiday sales here were lousy. We lost $2,900 today--calculated by the cost of keeping the doors open, the daily overhead, and the net profit on sales that came in. Overall, a good year, but we could use a little boost. How about a gift certificate for $20? Spend it whenever. This isn't another Hail Mary thing. We're not that terrified this time around. It's just that we are draining too fast from a reservoir that's not where it ought to be, and if you can buy credit here, please do. It isn't risky, I promise. This is the nature of a business that is underfunded and requires relatively huge outlays of money months in advance of receiving the inventory that takes six months to a year to sell.

[Hawker]

I've enjoyed watching The Profit on CNBC for almost three years now. A very successful businessman comes in to help struggling businesses, puts his own money in, becomes a partner and turns things around....nintey percent of the time he is successful. Everything from restaurants, apparel manufacturers, candy stores, drum companies, flower shops, watch makers, furniture makers, wine companies and baseball memorabilia manufacturers. Interestingly, he knows very little about the products...but he is a good business person. Widgets or bagels...the principles of business success seem to be the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Profit_(TV_series)

The common denominator is an owner with a great product who is a poor/mediocre business person. Mostly because they are;

A. too set in their ways.
B. too myopic.
c. technology challenged.
d. unwilling to dump inventory and focus on what sells.

Perhaps the company should consider some outside consulting? But find the right person or people isn't easy.

[David Kirk]

One guess and one snarky comment:

1) They might have tried, and the banks said "No."

2) Why pay a bank interest, when you can get free loans from your customers?


Both of those could be true.

I think if it's #2 then they might be "penny wise and dollar foolish" - the uncertainty and weird feelings that come along with asking your customers from no interest loans has a real financial downside. Just looking at this thread will tell you that any number of people here would have considered a Riv in the past but now they are off the list.

I hope they pull out of it and never feel they need to do this again. They offer cool stuff and the market says there's a place for it and I think that they can succeed if they handle it right.

dave

[belopsky]

Since their last hail mary they’ve only made worse decisions. IMO.

I know nothing about running a business

[eddief]

to get a line of credit? If things are tight and they are on a cash basis with their vendors, then a line of credit may not be available. And yes, a quiet line of credit would seem better than asking your customers for help.

Much of my addiction to bicycles is anchored in the mythology of Grant Peterson and Douglas Brooks. May they both have a happy and prosperous new year.

So I'm not a finance guy by any means so this question might be silly.....but isn't this the reason that they offer a "line of credit"?

I always assumed that one of the reasons this financial tool exists is to help even out cash flow of a seasonal business. Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

A sincere question.

dave

[hokoman]

I brought this thread out from the dead after reading his email and actually ordered some misc stuff the first time around. I went on to his blog to see if there was something I missed - asking people for money is completely foolish, and if anyone funds him, then they are naive. This is an excerpt about his shifters - I could summarize it, but that would take away from how out of touch he is with running a business.

We got notes on the Bamboo Harvester (Silver2) (name to be determined sometime) shifter. Here's a revised drawing (or dwg as it's referred to by people who refer to dwgs constantly):
(Pictures not copied here)
The colored areas are being revised to our exacting, scientistic specs. This is one of a handful of "before I die" projects that I want to complete. I really honestly don't care how few care or buy it, but I do hope people see it as a zero-nonsense, beautifully conceived manual shifter that is kind of a "last gasp" product in a bicycle age that is undeniably macho-electronic-electric. To use this and say it sucks is to blame the pencil for the lousy novel you're writing. This is a 100 percent potential shifter, and most people want 100 percent guaranteed perfect shifts shifters.

Can you see the funkiness of that? I want this sooooo badly. I really do, actually, care about reactions and how others feel about it, but I think what I mean to say is that I wouldn't like it any less even if I were the only one who liked it, but I know there are at least 50 others. We've got a lot of time and money in on it. It's been a work in progress for 3 years. It almost ruined a 30-year friendship with a Japanese guy, but we cleared that up. We (RIV) gave up a lot to get it -- details not appropriate here--and I don't feel great about that, but we WILL have it.

We're getting a 3-D printed version in a couple of weeks. Then they'll be heading off into the black hole, aka Chinese New Year, for 2 weeks, and we'll lose momentum, and we'll pick it up again in March, April.

This is where a 13-hour flight might help to speed things up, but I can't stand flying. I don't fear it, I just hate sitting down all that time, and the lack of sleep and rigmarole.

So he spends over 3 years on a shifter that has cost him a ton of time and money, and hopes there are at least 50 others that do too. Ok, let's just pretend that you sell 50 at $200. You just made $10,000. What did it cost to go into production? WOW.

BTW, I love the show "The Profit" - We need to get Marcus Lemonis to pay Riv a visit.

[bfd]

So he spends over 3 years on a shifter that has cost him a ton of time and money, and hopes there are at least 50 others that do too. Ok, let's just pretend that you sell 50 at $200. You just made $10,000. What did it cost to go into production? WOW.


This reminds me of Grant's classic interview with Mike Barry Sr, who recently passed away, may he RIP, and how Grant tried really hard to get Mike Barry to agree with him about the "downsides" of STI/Ergo shifters:

MB: I know you are not going to like this, but I believe that the biggest improvement in bikes in the last fifty years that I have been around them is derailleurs and shifters. There is no comparison between the old stuff and the new derailleurs with STI or Ergopower. We have the Japanese to thank for that. We would all still be riding campag Super Record if Shimano and SunTour hadn't made them change their ways. Don't get me wrong, there is a certain aesthetic and simple quality to the Super Record stuff but the cheapest Shimano now works much better.

GP: I'm not the arbiter of taste, but although I think today's derailleurs are as functionally good as derailleurs have ever been, they lack the style of the old ones, and they don't work world's better than a top derailleur from the '80s. It's sort of like comparing a $399 3.4 megapixel digital camera from today with a Canon or Olympus or Rollei rangefinder from back then - which is better is hard to say until you define "better." No doubt today's shifting is faster and more convenient, but the difference In a non-racing situation, just a guy out on a lonely road needing to downshift for the climb or a tailwind-well, how hard is it, even with a "crummy" old Super Record? You ease up a hair on the pedals and pay a small bit of attention for a fraction of a second, and bingo, you're in.

MB: Oh yes. It works quite well but with STI/ERGO one doesn't even think about it. changing gear just becomes a natural reaction.

GP: Hmm.. well, yes, but from my observations and limited experience, it goes beyond "natural reaction" to the point where riders start shifting even when there's no need to. I think it's like a full guy walking around with a chunk of a cheeseburger in his mouth, and a Camelback full of a chocolate shake and the straw's in his mouth. Shifts occur because they're so easy, and they become almost reflexive, even when there's little or nothing to gain. I think a case can be made for maintaining reasonable convenience while removing irresistible temptation, and that's where downtube shifters and bar-ends come in; and I don't like the looks of the others, either.

MB: I admit down-tube levers make for a much cleaner, aesthetically pleasing bike but I find it difficult to see that bar-end controls have any aesthetic or mechanical virtue over Ergopower.

GP: Well, I suppose you can get used to something if you're exposed to it enough. But at this stage of my life I'd take a Shimano Tiagra aero lever over any integrated lever, because they look better to me and fit my hand better. Outside of competition and riders who for medical reasons can't move their hands around, I see STI and Ergo as a way to make bikes more attractive to those riders who associate "Integration" and "high tech" and "change" as improvements. They offer "brainless shifting," but shifting's already easy enough; and they turn riders into compulsive shifters.

MB: I cannot see what is wrong with "brainless shifting." After all the bike is a tool for transporting oneself under one's own power with the least amount of effort.

GP: It's hard to counter the "tool" argument, but another way to look at it is that it"s a whole world in itself, and reflects the values arid personality and attitude of its rider. If a bike is just a tool, then we all ride super-thin TIG-welded steel, powder-coated black, or maybe aluminum. In that world, your Mariposa bicycles, with their gorgeous integrated racks wouldn't exist. I'm not denying their function, but there are cheaper and faster ways to achieve it. For the racer the bike is just a tool, but to somebody who loves bicycles, I think it's more.

MB: Well, sure, but there have always been beautifully made tools, and making a tool beautiful doesn't make it work any less efficiently, it just makes it more enjoyable to own and use. Just look at some of the wonderful wood planes tha have been produced. Cheaper, less well-finished tools often do an equally good job, but they are not so enjoyable to own and use. If you're really enthusiastic cycling or wood work whatever, you just get more enjoyment from having really nicely constructed equipment.
I don't you should have to think about changing gears. If I'm climbing a hill out of the saddle, as I am every morning on my rides in the park, it is great to be able to change to a lower ratio without sitting down and taking my hand off the bars It took me a long time to accept the new shifters but now have them I would never go back. I won't say that I don't enjoy riding my vintage bikes with their down tube levers and I love riding my bikes equipped with the much more difficult Campag Paris-Roubaix shifters, but they are not my choice for everyday use. For the average rider I think it is the one new innovation that should not be ignored.

GP: You have a point. But personally, I like feeling the derailleur move, and fine-tuning it. It's not a burden, and you miss that in indexing-all you feel is the click. But anyway, I wish manufacturers who have near monopolies, as Shimano and Campagnolo do, would also feel a responsibility to provide options. At one point I'd have said they have that responsibility, but I'm mellowing, and nowill just say I wish they felt one.

MB: I certainly agree that there should be options. I also think manufacturers have a responsibility to supply spare parts for components made just three or four years ago.

Grant Peterson: Well - it feels good to get past that nasty integrated shift issue, and I agree about the spares. Anyway, I'd like to know your thoughts on the American bike industry....

So classic! Kudo's to Mike Barry for not being bullied!

link: https://www.randonneursontario.ca/history/mbarry1.html

[belopsky]

Thanks for posting the above!

[54ny77]

^^bar ends and begging for handouts from customers calling it "future credit" is a unique business model. It's even worse than watching the slow inexorable death of Serotta. At least the employees built beautiful modern bikes with state of the art materials and production equipment, which can lead to other jobs. What the heck is a Rivendell funky bike builder going to do? Make artisinal handrails?

[dancinkozmo]

Thanks for posting the above!

i linked the full MB GP nterview in the mike barry rip thread if youre interested...he'll be missed...

https://www.randonneursontario.ca/history/mbarry1.html

[bfd]

what is up with that ??? how much weed have they been smoking since legalization ???

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/RB-1_52_1024x1024.jpg?v=1545873385

I keep looking at the above picture and can’t stop thinking of this bike:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3449/3880719332_60ba5ef366_z.jpg?zz=1

https://roadbikeaction-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1200/s/roadbikeaction.com/wp-content/contentimages/Zap%20News/2012/Race%20News/Bauer1.jpg

Let’s see: long chainstays, check! Super steep seat tube, check! Terrible baby carriers, check! Yup, has it all!

[Ozz]

So I'm not a finance guy by any means so this question might be silly.....but isn't this the reason that they offer a "line of credit"?

I always assumed that one of the reasons this financial tool exists is to help even out cash flow of a seasonal business. Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

A sincere question.

dave

Many reasons for a line of credit, and seasonality is typically one of them, and is another way of looking at the cash conversion cycle (CCC).

The CCC typically means you need to invest capital to buy raw material, then produce the good, sell the goods, and then collect money from the buyers. Then the cycle starts again....A line of credit lets you purchase the goods (and make payroll) until you can collect money from customers.

Bankers will look at the cash flow of a company when determining whether to establish a line of credit. This means, at the end of the CCC, is the company making money after paying all their bills.

Bankers will also look at collateral assets (inventory, equipment, real estate, cash, A/R, etc) to secure the line of credit in case the CCC business plans go sideways...

It is pretty important to get a LOC in place when times are good and before you need it. A lot of companies like to have one even if they don't need it for "window dressing"....having a LOC tells your vendors that your bank views you as creditworthy, and maybe they should too and offer favorable terms.

There is a lot more to this...I am not a lender, but work closely with some.

Back on topic, the challenges Rivendell/Grant is facing are not that uncommon....lots of businesses have great ideas and grow the "fun" side of the business without paying proper attention to the "boring" financial side and end up over extended. A good banker (there are a few;)) would have helped.

[David Kirk]

Good stuff - thank you.

dave

Many reasons for a line of credit, and seasonality is typically one of them, and is another way of looking at the cash conversion cycle (CCC).

The CCC typically means you need to invest capital to buy raw material, then produce the good, sell the goods, and then collect money from the buyers. Then the cycle starts again....A line of credit lets you purchase the goods (and make payroll) until you can collect money from customers.

Bankers will look at the cash flow of a company when determining whether to establish a line of credit. This means, at the end of the CCC, is the company making money after paying all their bills.

Bankers will also look at collateral assets (inventory, equipment, real estate, cash, A/R, etc) to secure the line of credit in case the CCC business plans go sideways...

It is pretty important to get a LOC in place when times are good and before you need it. A lot of companies like to have one even if they don't need it for "window dressing"....having a LOC tells your vendors that your bank views you as creditworthy, and maybe they should too and offer favorable terms.

There is a lot more to this...I am not a lender, but work closely with some.

Back on topic, the challenges Rivendell/Grant is facing are not that uncommon....lots of businesses have great ideas and grow the "fun" side of the business without paying proper attention to the "boring" financial side and end up over extended. A good banker (there are a few;)) would have helped.

[bikinchris]

Or artisanal pencil sharpening, which is actually a "real" thing:

http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com/about.html

No. Just....no. Mechanical pencils are FAR superior to wooden pencils. Quit being luddites! Get yerself a top of the line titanium or carbon fiber pencil.

This one is $200.00:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0002/7544/7814/products/STEEL_MASTER_FAMILY_6_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=154331503 3
[/sarcasm]

[peanutgallery]

A year ago I suggested getting the guy a gift certificate for the services of my accountant. He needs this more than anything as cash flow and all that is obviously problem. Nothing has changed, don't know how long you can chase windmills

[dancinkozmo]

No. Just....no. Mechanical pencils are FAR superior to wooden pencils. Quit being luddites! Get yerself a top of the line titanium or carbon fiber pencil.
[/IMG]

mech pencils = the SRAM of pencildom...here is the super record...

https://www.jetpens.com/Uni-Mitsubishi-Hi-Uni-Pencil-10B-Box-of-12/pd/3517

[cloudguy]

No. Just....no. Mechanical pencils are FAR superior to wooden pencils. Quit being luddites! Get yerself a top of the line titanium or carbon fiber pencil.


Just watch this video and tell me if you still feel that way.

https://vimeo.com/60718161

[gdw]

This place is circling the drain....urban pencilsexuals. Omfg.

[cloudguy]

This place is circling the drain....urban pencilsexuals. Omfg.

Don't knock it, till you try it.

[bikinchris]

Just watch this video and tell me if you still feel that way.

https://vimeo.com/60718161

And he did that with a straight face. I tip my hat to him. Chapeau, Monsieur.

[Joe Remi]

Geez you guys. The idea was that if you hadn't purchased a Riv thing this month then you probably don't need anything, but maybe $20 down on a gift certificate for later would be cool. You don't HAVE to do it and I didn't: the email reminded me that I've been meaning to snag a couple things they sell for a while and kept forgetting about it. It's not a big deal.

[rwsaunders]

So I'm not a finance guy by any means so this question might be silly.....but isn't this the reason that they offer a "line of credit"?

I always assumed that one of the reasons this financial tool exists is to help even out cash flow of a seasonal business. Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

A sincere question.

dave

A business LOC requires some amount of collateral to help offset the risk that the lender takes when issuing the proverbial "note" and your financials need to be in order as well, right? Who knows, perhaps he doesn't have the collateral needed to establish a LOC, doesn't believe in banks, doesn't want to tie up his personal assets or his lender read his blog.

Someone suggested a model where the founder, entrepreneur, ideaman, etc. passed the torch to a business manager and let each other do their thing...a little succession planning. Hopefully it's not too late.

[Louis]

This place is circling the drain....urban pencilsexuals. Omfg.

Philistine.

And I'm sure you just love how your $65 Walmart bike rides...



;)

[fourflys]

So I've been a Riv guy in the past and a Grant supporter... I wanted/want an orange Ram, bought a Bleriot I wish I hadn't sold, and got my dad to buy a Hilson... But, nothing that Grant has produced in the past few years (short of the Roadeo/Roadini) has even peaked my interest... double top-tubes? Why?

I do wish Grant/Riv well, but he has to change something... I was just having a conversation over the holiday about folks who are good at one or two things (an engineer with a great idea for example) that starts a business and thinks they can do the whole thing, it usually doesn't work out well... a smart business person realizes their shortcomings and surrounds themselves with folks who can fill in those gaps.

At this point, Black Mountain Cycles fills any need that Riv might have in the past... with the steel Road (better Ram?), MonsterCross (fat tire "country"), and the new Road+ (650b), why would I even look at Riv for a frame? Black Mountain seems to have realized what Grant couldn't... also, Mike is able to offer his stuff at a much better price and, I feel, a better overall frameset.

I supported the last fundraising effort because I really do like the company, but not this time... I do feel bad for the employees though, may who have stuck with Grant in the hard times.

[CNY rider]

They don’t seem to be so saved to me.
When you take the head off a chicken the legs keep running around for a while after.
That doesn’t mean it’s still alive or has a viable future.

[MikeD]

So I've been a Riv guy in the past and a Grant supporter... I wanted/want an orange Ram, bought a Bleriot I wish I hadn't sold, and got my dad to buy a Hilson... But, nothing that Grant has produced in the past few years (short of the Roadeo/Roadini) has even peaked my interest... double top-tubes? Why?



I do wish Grant/Riv well, but he has to change something... I was just having a conversation over the holiday about folks who are good at one or two things (an engineer with a great idea for example) that starts a business and thinks they can do the whole thing, it usually doesn't work out well... a smart business person realizes their shortcomings and surrounds themselves with folks who can fill in those gaps.



At this point, Black Mountain Cycles fills any need that Riv might have in the past... with the steel Road (better Ram?), MonsterCross (fat tire "country"), and the new Road+ (650b), why would I even look at Riv for a frame? Black Mountain seems to have realized what Grant couldn't... also, Mike is able to offer his stuff at a much better price and, I feel, a better overall frameset.



I supported the last fundraising effort because I really do like the company, but not this time... I do feel bad for the employees though, may who have stuck with Grant in the hard times.


I don't think the quality of BMC's Chinese steel frames are near the quality offered by Rivendell.

Maybe part of the problem is that Rivendell is not a frame builder, and can't compete with those that are on price. Also, the steel frame/bike market has a lot of competition.

I also think there's a shrinking customer base. I don't think young people are getting into cycling. Century rides that used to fill up in the Bay Area are not that well attended anymore, for example.

[fourflys]

I don't think the quality of BMC's Chinese steel frames are near the quality offered by Rivendell.

if you are comparing Riv's custom stuff, I'm sure I'd agree (I think Black Mtn is really close to the Waterford offerings if you ask me)... if you are talking about something like the Roadini, I just don't see it... I guess if you have to have lugs, but other than that... as I said above, I had a Bleriot and while it was a beautiful bike, the quality of the frame or ride wasn't any better than than either of my Black Mtn bikes... the lugs were pretty to look at, but that was about it IMHO. Especially when you compare it to something like the Hilson with a $1,500 price tag, I just don't see the almost 3x price increase...

BTW- to say Black Mtn has "Chinese steel" is a bit disingenuous... while Taiwan is certainly Chinese, Mike uses the leading steel tubing supplier there. What you imply above seems to compare Black Mtn bikes to something from WalMart... Where does Grant have his non-custom models like the Roadini built, I can't find it on the site... ** I found in the catalog where the frames are "from our small volume Taiwan builders"... sounds like the same as Black Mtn to me.

[fourflys]

I also think there's a shrinking customer base. I don't think young people are getting into cycling. Century rides that used to fill up in the Bay Area are not that well attended anymore, for example.

There could be something to that, but Mike doesn't seem to have any issues selling out his stock of frames almost every time... I do agree US road cycling seems to be in a bit of a doldrum right now... but it had to drop a bit after Lance fell off and the energy left... I assume it will go back to being more of a fringe sport again at some point.

[MikeD]

if you are comparing Riv's custom stuff, I'm sure I'd agree (I think Black Mtn is really close to the Waterford offerings if you ask me)... if you are talking about something like the Roadini, I just don't see it... I guess if you have to have lugs, but other than that... as I said above, I had a Bleriot and while it was a beautiful bike, the quality of the frame or ride wasn't any better than than either of my Black Mtn bikes... the lugs were pretty to look at, but that was about it IMHO. Especially when you compare it to something like the Hilson with a $1,500 price tag, I just don't see the almost 3x price increase...

BTW- to say Black Mtn has "Chinese steel" is a bit disingenuous... while Taiwan is certainly Chinese, Mike uses the leading steel tubing supplier there. What you imply above seems to compare Black Mtn bikes to something from WalMart... Where does Grant have his lower priced models like the Roadini built, I can't find it on the site...


If you can point me to where on the BMC site tubing quality and where the bikes are made are discussed? I thought mainland China. Taiwan is certainly better but no-name brand tubing doesn't inspire confidence. BMC, Surly, Soma, they're about the same. Decent but cheap frames. I don't know about the Roadini but have always thought that Rivendell is known for high quality steel framed bikes fabbed in the US, not really competing in the same segment of the market as BMC, etc.

[fourflys]

If you can point me to where on the BMC site tubing quality and where the bikes are made are discussed? I thought mainland China. Taiwan is certainly better but no-name brand tubing doesn't inspire confidence. BMC, Surly, Soma, they're about the same. Decent but cheap frames. I don't know about the Roadini but have always thought that Rivendell is known for high quality steel framed bikes fabbed in the US, not really competing in the same segment of the market as BMC, etc.

from the latest Riv catalog:
"We’re picky about who builds our frames. Of the
frame suppliers we’ve used over the years, few
have equaled and none have exceeded the quality,
precision, and consistency of the Rivendell frames
from our small-volume Taiwan builders. They build
to spec, and frames and forks get tested to rigorous,
objective standards by computer-controlled hydraulic
robots. What we learn from the tests, we apply to
the production frames. If you shop with an American
job-preserving conscience, consider that nobody
in America can deliver the combination of detail,
quality, consistency, and volume we require to stay
in business. Our Taiwan-built frames directly support
nine of 13 jobs here at Rivendell in Walnut Creek. "
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/2018_Rivendell_Frame_Catalog.pdf?18216627747902060 761

From the Road frame page on Black Mtn:
"The steel used in the road frame is a heat-treated, double butted, 4130 chrome-moly tubing made by the leading steel tubing supplier in Taiwan. It’s tubing I specified for the ride quality I want and it rides great. "
https://blackmtncycles.com/frames/road-frames/

somewhere on one of the early blogs on the Black Mtn site, Mike discusses who makes it frames and forks... in regard to "no-name tubing", who does Riv use? Really not trying to be argumentative here, just saying... also, in the Riv catalog above, it seems to indicate only the custom Rivs are now made in the US. All others it seems are made over in Taiwan, I guess Waterford got too expensive for them.

** here is one post where Mike speaks a bit more on the tubesets he specs... https://blackmtncycles.com/black-mountain-cycles-frame-update-3/

[Joe Remi]

For the prices Black Mountain are asking, I'm fairly certain those "Taiwan tubes" are welded up in China. If that's your thing, go crazy, they seem like nice bikes, but Rivs aren't built in China.

[fourflys]

For the prices Black Mountain are asking, I'm fairly certain those "Taiwan tubes" are welded up in China. If that's your thing, go crazy, they seem like nice bikes, but Rivs aren't built in China.

wow, some of you folks seem deadset to discuss things you only assume and bring down something based on a halo-effect... again, I have no real issues with Riv bikes if lugs are your thing, but the Black Mtn bikes and the non-custom Rivs seem to be made in the same place (who knows, could be the same shop that welds them up...)

I would be curious to know what type of tubeset Riv uses (butting, heat treated, etc?) as my Bleriot I had seemed to not ride as nice as either of my Black Mtn bikes... I imagine the previous, higher-end Rivs built by Waterford rode pretty nice, but I've only owned a Taiwan-built Riv previously. But, I don't think Grant shares that type of knowledge.

https://blackmtncycles.com/differences/

[palincss]

For the prices Black Mountain are asking, I'm fairly certain those "Taiwan tubes" are welded up in China. If that's your thing, go crazy, they seem like nice bikes, but Rivs aren't built in China.

If you look at the Black Mountain web site, you'll see they say in several places the frames are Taiwan-made. Taiwan != China.

[Joe Remi]

If you look at the Black Mountain web site, you'll see they say in several places the frames are Taiwan-made. Taiwan != China.

My mistake then, I find the Black Mtn site quite difficult to navigate so I didn't find a specific build location. I don't know why their road frame is cheaper than a Roadini, although using powdercoat instead of paint may help.

[Joe Remi]

wow, some of you folks seem deadset to discuss things you only assume and bring down something based on a halo-effect... again, I have no real issues with Riv bikes if lugs are your thing, but the Black Mtn bikes and the non-custom Rivs seem to be made in the same place (who knows, could be the same shop that welds them up...)

I would be curious to know what type of tubeset Riv uses (butting, heat treated, etc?) as my Bleriot I had seemed to not ride as nice as either of my Black Mtn bikes... I imagine the previous, higher-end Rivs built by Waterford rode pretty nice, but I've only owned a Taiwan-built Riv previously. But, I don't think Grant shares that type of knowledge.

https://blackmtncycles.com/differences/

Some of us folks think it's weird that a thread was resurrected over a $20 promotion with people throwing up their hands and unsubscribing. Now we have to go down the road of "Black Mtn better/cheaper", which probably isn't much fun for two company owners who live within riding distance of each other. Yeah let's do that.

[fourflys]

Some of us folks think it's weird that a thread was resurrected over a $20 promotion with people throwing up their hands and unsubscribing. Now we have to go down the road of "Black Mtn better/cheaper", which probably isn't much fun for two company owners who live within riding distance of each other. Yeah let's do that.

having been to both shops and bought bikes from both, I get it... but the discussion turned to why Riv was having to ask for folks to underwrite them again after the last time (which I supported and never never used my credit BTW). The facts are the facts, it appears there is a comparable bike, minus lugs, for a better price and maybe some newer technology. If two folks who have been in the industry a long time can't take a bit of back and forth, I think there are larger issues... BTW- I'm sure they can... in the end, folks will spend their dollars where they want and I sincerely hope Rivendell is one of those options.

there is nothing wrong with healthy discussion in a free market society. We are all consumers.

[Joe Remi]

I don't think this is a healthy discussion. It (re)started with people blowing steam over a $20 promotion and saying it caused them to unsubscribe from the emails. There's nothing "healthy" about that, it's just howling at the moon on the internet.

[MaraudingWalrus]

I don't think this is a healthy discussion....It's just howling at the moon on the internet.


welcome to the Internet!

[Ed-B]

I don't think this is a healthy discussion. It (re)started with people blowing steam over a $20 promotion and saying it caused them to unsubscribe from the emails. There's nothing "healthy" about that, it's just howling at the moon on the internet.

What you need to realize is that for many of us these pleas for help are not new from Grant at Rivendell Bicycle Works, and we're all feeling like it's time for a new business plan.

And personally, I think it is a healthy discussion, because if some of the ideas raised in this thread were to be implemented, then RBW might be a more profitable and sustainable business in what is clearly a shrinking and highly competitive market.

[arazate]

The company I work for has significant experience in sourcing tubes in steel, stainless steel, Ti etc. both seamless and welded from China. Mills exist in China that rival the quality of European or American mills, at half the cost.

[Burnette]

I don't think this is a healthy discussion. It (re)started with people blowing steam over a $20 promotion and saying it caused them to unsubscribe from the emails. There's nothing "healthy" about that, it's just howling at the moon on the internet.

Hey now, that's not a fair narrative of what this is about. It's not just another run if the mill gift certificate promo here.

And we come to forums to talk bikes and Rivendell is quite the story.

If you read through, even some detractors wish Rivendell well but Rivendell in the end a business and in the public domain people have every right to question their ways and even stop correspondence with them.

There's nothing healthy in suppressing what is definitely true either, no matter how hard it may be for some to read.

Rivendell lost a lot of faith when they asked for money the first time, people have every right to question it when they do it again.

If one were really wanting to help Rivendell you wouldn't go to a forum and ask why people are questioning them, you would tell Rivendell that obviously that their asking for money is having a big negative effect and you would give them advice on other avenues to pursue.

Again, if you read the thread more than one person had done just that.

You can't downplay it, Rivendell is in a mess and it's perfectly fine if we discuss. Even better when we can be humorous about it. I'm pro mechanical pencil by the way.

[Joe Remi]

I didn't question anyone's right to have a discussion. It's pointless to respond to me as if I said a thing I didn't say.

[seanile]

I didn't question anyone's right to have a discussion. It's pointless to respond to me as if I said a thing I didn't say.

what else could you have meant by calling it an unhealthy discussion?

[Joe Remi]

You have the right to participate in unhealthy discussion, I have the right to call it unhealthy. This isn't complicated.

[peanutgallery]

Like too much salt unhealthy...or just that you don't agree with the discourse?

You have the right to participate in unhealthy discussion, I have the right to call it unhealthy. This isn't complicated.

[FlashUNC]

Cuts through this conversation like a $140 boutique axe.

[Joe Remi]

As for Riv being "a mess", that's a very subjective argument based on Grant's very unusual open policy about how the business runs. I realize it still bugs some people, but after 25 years of it I think it's either a thing you get or you don't, there's no right or wrong about it. It's a brick-and-mortar shop trying to keep trucking in an online world, and - as with all of them right now - it's becoming increasingly difficult.

Will it survive beyond Grant, Mark and Rich retiring? Who knows? It's plugged along for 25 years so far, and hopefully has at least a few good ones left. I'm glad it's there and really like the folks I've met, and don't think the email promotion was annoying.

I don't think the baby bike is stupid, either..I see a whole lot of Instagram shots of folks riding their kids. It's not a mass production item, the hope is they'll build a few and sell them. I don't think that's too much to ask.

In conclusion, these are my opinions on an opinion forum. No rights have been abridged in the posting of this note. Thank you and Happy New Year.

Edit: Apologies for the convoluted sentence structure. I tried to tighten it up and made it worse, then gave up. Good luck with the reading!

[peanutgallery]

Did you buy an axe?

As for Riv being "a mess", that's a very subjective argument based on Grant's very unusual open policy about how the business runs. I realize it still bugs some people, but after 25 years of it I think it's either a thing you get or you don't, there's no right or wrong about it. It's a brick-and-mortar shop trying to keep trucking in an online world, and - as with all of them right now - it's becoming increasingly difficult.

Will it survive beyond Grant, Mark and Rich retiring? Who knows? It's plugged along for 25 years so far, and hopefully has at least a few good ones left. I'm glad it's there and really like the folks I've met, and don't think the email promotion was annoying.

I don't think the baby bike is stupid, either..I see a whole lot of Instagram shots of folks riding their kids. It's not a mass production item, the hope is they'll build a few and sell them. I don't think that's too much to ask.

In conclusion, these are my opinions on an opinion forum. No rights have been abridged in the posting of this note. Thank you and Happy New Year.

[hokoman]

Joe - Why do you keep using the word 'promotion'? This is far from your typical retail 'promotion'.

[Skenry]

, and don't think the email promotion was annoying.

Maybe not annoying, more like sad. I wish all of them well, no one wants to see a business close, in any industry. I truly feel bad for his employees, they are the ones who stand to get hurt the most. Hopefully this will be a wake up call for Grant AND his staff.

It's just not that hard to sell what people want to buy. I read the RBW list, the iBob list, the Bristone fan facebook, ect.... No one has ever asked for a huge wheelbased, double top tube country bike with homemade rack mounts and grips.

Someone else already mentioned it a couple pages back, want to save the business? Start building the orange Rambouillet again. People are constantly asking for that.

[dancinkozmo]

...

[Joe Remi]

thats the crux of it...they spend time and money on wacky 'pet projects' that end up not selling , then they need to ask the membership for help to pay the bills.

I'm not sure where you picked up "not selling". As far as I can tell they've sold most every frame they've built, including an unexpectedly popular tandem which is on its second or third run now.

Where I think Riv struggles is in the increasingly competitive online market for bike parts..it's just hard to do in the age of Amazon, and Rivendell is far from unique in this aspect. I'm frankly bewildered at the ire they seem to generate for being in an economy a whole lotta people are struggling with.

[Joe Remi]

Joe - Why do you keep using the word 'promotion'? This is far from your typical retail 'promotion'.

Promotion: To promote. The email promotes the idea that if you didn't need anything in December, maybe you will in the next couple months and could drop a payment on it now. That's a promotion.

[CunegoFan]

I think Grant always positioned Rivendell to be on the fringe. When the industry adopted some of those fringe ideas, there was no motivation to declare victory and profit. Instead Grant moved even further afield so Rivendell would still be on the fringe. If the industry players put double top tubes on their rides, Grant will put triples on his.

[Joe Remi]

Maybe not annoying, more like sad. I wish all of them well, no one wants to see a business close, in any industry. I truly feel bad for his employees, they are the ones who stand to get hurt the most. Hopefully this will be a wake up call for Grant AND his staff.

It's just not that hard to sell what people want to buy. I read the RBW list, the iBob list, the Bristone fan facebook, ect.... No one has ever asked for a huge wheelbased, double top tube country bike with homemade rack mounts and grips.

Someone else already mentioned it a couple pages back, want to save the business? Start building the orange Rambouillet again. People are constantly asking for that.

Everybody wants the thing that isn't made anymore. The orange Ram with full lugs and mid-reach brakes made in Japan would be astronomically expense. The current version is/was the Roadeo made by Waterford, and when was the last time you saw one on the road?

Advising Grant/Riv to make a frame they can't sell in today's market is not wise.

[peanutgallery]

Did you buy an axe?

Everybody wants the thing that isn't made anymore. The orange Ram with full lugs and mid-reach brakes made in Japan would be astronomically expense. The current version is/was the Roadeo made by Waterford, and when was the last time you saw one on the road?

Advising Grant/Riv to make a frame they can't sell in today's market is not wise.

[dancinkozmo]

joe...i disagree with you , but kudos to sticking to your guns
:banana:

[Joe Remi]

joe...i disagree with you , but kudos to sticking to your guns
:banana:

Someone is wrong on the internet!

[Joe Remi]

Did you buy an axe?

I bought accessories for my workstand and some cables. You can stop asking this incredibly clever question now.

[Burnette]

You have the right to participate in unhealthy discussion, I have the right to call it unhealthy. This isn't complicated.

How is this an unhealthy discussion.

[Joe Remi]

How is this an unhealthy discussion.

The answer is in my previous comments leading to that point. I find restating my argument for people purposely ignoring what I've already said to be quite tedious.

[Peter B]

<snip>

The orange Ram with full lugs and mid-reach brakes made in Japan would be astronomically expense.

Jeff Lyon (https://www.lyonsport.com/frames-0) will build you a custom MUSA steel frameset with full lugs for mid-reach brakes for <$2k.

[Joe Remi]

Jeff Lyon (https://www.lyonsport.com/frames-0) will build you a custom MUSA steel frameset with full lugs for mid-reach brakes for <$2k.

Then you should buy a bike actually being made by Jeff Lyon for $2k.

[belopsky]

But it’s not a Rivendell

[Burnette]

The answer is in my previous comments leading to that point. I find restating my argument for people purposely ignoring what I've already said to be quite tedious.

Nothing in your posts showed where this is an unhealthy discussion, so OK.

Rivendell has more real problems than what's posted on a bike forum. It may even in fact be healthy for them to read this thread to get some good advice and see how they are viewed outside of the echo chamber.

[peanutgallery]

Too much salt and no helmet

How is this an unhealthy discussion.

[Ken Robb]

Maybe not annoying, more like sad. I wish all of them well, no one wants to see a business close, in any industry. I truly feel bad for his employees, they are the ones who stand to get hurt the most. Hopefully this will be a wake up call for Grant AND his staff.

It's just not that hard to sell what people want to buy. I read the RBW list, the iBob list, the Bristone fan facebook, ect.... No one has ever asked for a huge wheelbased, double top tube country bike with homemade rack mounts and grips.

Someone else already mentioned it a couple pages back, want to save the business? Start building the orange Rambouillet again. People are constantly asking for that.

My orange Rambo is the last road bike I kept after buying and selling at least 20 nice bikes of steel, carbon and ti. It does everything I need pretty well and I think it's pretty.

[peanutgallery]

Big spender, what about the soap?

I bought accessories for my workstand and some cables. You can stop asking this incredibly clever question now.

[Peter B]

Then you should buy a bike actually being made by Jeff Lyon for $2k.

Thanks for the advice Joe but I'm not in the market for a bike right now.

Just offering a little perspective on the competitive domestic market in hopes of keeping this thread healthy.

[Joe Remi]

Big spender, what about the soap?

Right, I forgot why I rarely deal with you guys. My bad.

[Burnette]

Too much salt and no helmet

That must be it!

[arazate]

Big spender, what about the soap?

Dude, lay off already, what are you 2? Man, I don't post often here, 99% of you folks seem to be good people. But, that 1%.......

[Burnette]

Dude, lay off already, what are you 2? Man, I don't post often here, 99% of you folks seem to be good people. But, that 1%.......

We're all posting in jest and at the same time the soap and axe are real. It's commentary on the fact of how Rivendell lost focus a bit by giving attention to weird stuff on the periphery while the core business went wanting.

By Rivendell's own email they came up short, and if you have excess ax and soap inventory sitting on the shelf they gotta ask themselves did they wander too far into the woods.

[livingminimal]

I get it's part of the whole bit, but they've gotta find some better marketing. How does the rando/gravel crew largely miss out on the groad explosion they helped create?

I cant stomach reading this whole thread, but this post stood out on page one because I think a lot of what you're seeing on the groad explosion front is roadies moving over riding roadie inspired bikes (checkpoint, OpenUP, Diverge, et al) and they aren't really going for the Riv thing, and frankly probably never well.

You look at some of these races like STB GRVL, literally announcing the race and course 10 months in advance and you know a massive proportion of the people lining up for that have also at the very least dabbled in cross and business park crits. This explosion of groad event/race/whathaveyou space has the big three and their type of consumer. I have not myself been, but I hear more than a few folks say that the main event of DK is really the vendor expo and seeing the new gravel tech from the big boys.

(someone else already answered this on subsequent pages)

[arazate]

I understand what you are saying; but, in this thread, some of the jest has appeared mean spirited. Perhaps I read it wrong.

[Burnette]

I understand what you are saying; but, in this thread, some of the jest has appeared mean spirited. Perhaps I read it wrong.

Rivendell has some fans and that's great, but the reality is that Rivendell has issues, there's no denying that. So some folks may not like to read about it but it's true.

Nobody wants to see a business go down but the eccentricity of Rivendell, soaps, ax and all do open it to humor.

You can like a place and people but if said place and people do questionable things, people less in love will call out the crazy pieces.

It's not unhealthy to point out where something is wrong if it is. And there is something wrong there.

[Joe Remi]

The fascination with soap and axes as if this is a new thing eludes me. 25 years ago Riv was selling soap, beeswax and knives..this stuff has always been a quirky sideline for them. A lot of the comments in this thread read as though people just discovered the company and are pissed they're not Surly.

[livingminimal]

A lot of the comments in this thread read as though people just discovered the company and are pissed they're not Surly.

I mean true, but Surly is (I think?) financially solvent.

[Joe Remi]

Cool, we can talk about how great Surly is. Surly is gnarly and rad!

[dancinkozmo]

i ride a surly pacer...its a damn good bike..eff you !!

[Burnette]

The fascination with soap and axes as if this is a new thing eludes me. 25 years ago Riv was selling soap, beeswax and knives..this stuff has always been a quirky sideline for them. A lot of the comments in this thread read as though people just discovered the company and are pissed they're not Surly.

It's not fascination, it's just funny. And sad. Rivendell can't afford quirky sidelines.

Again, you seem to be taking it personally and you really shouldn't. Rivendell made some bad decisions and they are still bleeding money after a handout.

Listen, if ski merchant peanutgallery can't pay his bills and begs for money while he has ten cases of mustache wax going out of date in the back, I'll be the first to rib him about it.

[fourflys]

The fascination with soap and axes as if this is a new thing eludes me. 25 years ago Riv was selling soap, beeswax and knives..this stuff has always been a quirky sideline for them. A lot of the comments in this thread read as though people just discovered the company and are pissed they're not Surly.

This is a good point... I don't know why Rivs aren't selling like they once did, Grant has always had his quirks for sure... I think one of the issues is they've just lost the value folks saw in them on a large scale. It appears from the last catalog that all of the bikes except the customs might be made in Taiwan and are still around $1500-$1600 for a frameset. I think there are other options in steel, sturdy bikes made in Taiwan that are much more affordable... combine that with some of the less desirable frames (in many folk's eyes), like the mixte frames, and you have a dying niche... At one point I would have paid that amount for a lugged, steel, made in Taiwan frameset, but at this point I've realized my Black Mtn will do all of that (maybe better ride, subjective) at almost a third of the price. The Bleriot I had was a good deal because it was the "overseas bike" that was cheaper than the US made version...

For folks who want Lugs and the Riv vibe, they are one of the few left unless you want to pay a lot money, I guess I just feel the majority have moved on...

That's my thoughts anyway...

[Joe Remi]

It's not fascination, it's just funny. And sad. Rivendell can't afford quirky sidelines.

Again, you seem to be taking it personally and you really shouldn't. Rivendell made some bad decisions and they are still bleeding money after a handout.

Listen, if ski merchant peanutgallery can't pay his bills and begs for money while he has ten cases of mustache wax going out of date in the back, I'll be the first to rib him about it.

You're in no position to tell me what I should or shouldn't take personally.

[FlashUNC]

The fascination with soap and axes as if this is a new thing eludes me. 25 years ago Riv was selling soap, beeswax and knives..this stuff has always been a quirky sideline for them. A lot of the comments in this thread read as though people just discovered the company and are pissed they're not Surly.

Just as you asked for people not to imply things you didn't say, that street goes both ways.

The point many, including myself, are making is that the sideline stuff increasingly seems like the front and center stuff.

Rather than selling really good bikes, it's some either ill-executed attempt at a lifestyle brand, or just Grant's personal interests expressed as a business. Which, yes, that's basically all Riv has largely ever been, but when the #1 item listed in the holiday gift guide is an axe, or there's a couple thousand words on the blog extolling soap varietals, something has clearly gone pear-shaped in the approach to the market.

Again, the kind of riding that Grant and team has espoused for decades is THE trend in the industry, and instead of making hay while the sun shines, they're asking folks to buy gift cards to help replenish a reserve that needs to be deeper than it should be, a year after holding out the hat to very clearly keep the lights on.

It's not that they're not Surly. Far from it. They should be eating Surly's lunch. And owning a segment they've basically created with really kick-ass bikes and kick-ass accessories. What's there today by any external expression is not that.

If anything, what you construe as "they're not Surly" is some exasperation from those who recognize Grant and Riv's work for the visionary stuff it is, and that the guys who got it before anyone else now seem to be badly missing the plot for reasons that escape a lot of us, even with all this radical transparency.

[Burnette]

You're in no position to tell me what I should or shouldn't take personally.

I'm sorry if you do, because the thread is about Rivendell.

[Joe Remi]

Just as you asked for people not to imply things you didn't say, that street goes both ways.

The point many, including myself, are making is that the sideline stuff increasingly seems like the front and center stuff.

Rather than selling really good bikes, it's some either ill-executed attempt at a lifestyle brand, or just Grant's personal interests expressed as a business. Which, yes, that's basically all Riv has largely ever been, but when the #1 item listed in the holiday gift guide is an axe, or there's a couple thousand words on the blog extolling soap varietals, something has clearly gone pear-shaped in the approach to the market.

Again, the kind of riding that Grant and team has espoused for decades is THE trend in the industry, and instead of making hay while the sun shines, they're asking folks to buy gift cards to help replenish a reserve that needs to be deeper than it should be, a year after holding out the hat to very clearly keep the lights on.

It's not that they're not Surly. Far from it. They should be eating Surly's lunch. And owning a segment they've basically created with really kick-ass bikes and kick-ass accessories. What's there today by any external expression is not that.

If anything, what you construe as "they're not Surly" is some exasperation from those who recognize Grant and Riv's work for the visionary stuff it is, and that the guys who got it before anyone else now seem to be badly missing the plot for reasons that escape a lot of us, even with all this radical transparency.

I see no evidence that the bikes themselves aren't selling. The problem seems to be on the parts end, where they're being undercut online for stuff that anybody seems to be able to offer at fire sale prices now. That's just the reality of our new Amazon World, and there isn't a helluva lot Riv can do about it..they're certainly not the only company being affected.

Frankly the fringe stuff may be a calling card that still works for them to the extent it does. It's just a hard time out there all the way around.

[Burnette]

Just as you asked for people not to imply things you didn't say, that street goes both ways.

The point many, including myself, are making is that the sideline stuff increasingly seems like the front and center stuff.

Rather than selling really good bikes, it's some either ill-executed attempt at a lifestyle brand, or just Grant's personal interests expressed as a business. Which, yes, that's basically all Riv has largely ever been, but when the #1 item listed in the holiday gift guide is an axe, or there's a couple thousand words on the blog extolling soap varietals, something has clearly gone pear-shaped in the approach to the market.

Again, the kind of riding that Grant and team has espoused for decades is THE trend in the industry, and instead of making hay while the sun shines, they're asking folks to buy gift cards to help replenish a reserve that needs to be deeper than it should be, a year after holding out the hat to very clearly keep the lights on.

It's not that they're not Surly. Far from it. They should be eating Surly's lunch. And owning a segment they've basically created with really kick-ass bikes and kick-ass accessories. What's there today by any external expression is not that.

If anything, what you construe as "they're not Surly" is some exasperation from those who recognize Grant and Riv's work for the visionary stuff it is, and that the guys who got it before anyone else now seem to be badly missing the plot for reasons that escape a lot of us, even with all this radical transparency.

This pretty much sums it up. They lost focus, the market came to their style of riding and instead of making money are asking for handouts. I like this write up.

[raygunner]

Everytime there's an old rivendell jersey on eBay it fetches well over $100.

I emailed recently (after Hail Mary but before this dust up) and was told there are no plans for such per riv.

Obviously there's customers for such an item (like the orange Ram) but their site is littered with axes and bandannas. Obviously there's a disconnect and they're forced to pass the hat.

And speaking of which, what happened to the $215k (or whatever was the final number)?

[R3awak3n]

Everytime there's an old rivendell jersey on eBay it fetches well over $100.

I emailed recently (after Hail Mary but before this dust up) and was told there are no plans for such per riv.

Obviously there's customers for such an item (like the orange Ram) but their site is littered with axes and bandannas. Obviously there's a disconnect and they're forced to pass the hat.

And speaking of which, what happened to the $215k (or whatever was the final number)?

Shouldn't it be pass the bandana?

:banana:

[AngryScientist]

This thread is getting very close to being shut down.

Please, go ahead and discuss the topic, but refrain from personal jabs at each other. there is really no reason to go there.

i find this to be a good topic, and interesting insight to the industry of 2019, so let's keep it civil.

i have a few thoughts i will share in a bit, but for now, let's keep it to the topic, not poke each other. we're all [virtual] friends here.

[fourflys]

I see no evidence that the bikes themselves aren't selling.

Then Grant needs to place larger orders for bikes or find a different supplier in Taiwan as others have done for a better margin... as far as BIKE parts, I assume many Riv frames are sold with all or most parts to build it (I had them build mine). So is the issue Grant is stocking a lot of stuff that folks just aren't wanting then?

Raygunner has a good point on the jersey... if folks are searching ebay and folks like him as asking, why is there no plans to stock one? I'm certain they could find a supplier...

bottom line is I think buyers aren't finding value in Riv products like they once did... I agree with others that they may be a victim of their own previous ideas that took off and passed them buy...

[Burnette]

I think it's a good topic too. It's the story of many a bike shop, except this one is more public and has some interesting twists. I too wonder how it will play out going forward.

[Joe Remi]

Then Grant needs to place larger orders for bikes or find a different supplier in Taiwan as others have done for a better margin... as far as BIKE parts, I assume many Riv frames are sold with all or most parts to build it (I had them build mine). So is the issue Grant is stocking a lot of stuff that folks just aren't wanting then?

Raygunner has a good point on the jersey... if folks are searching ebay and folks like him as asking, why is there no plans to stock one? I'm certain they could find a supplier...

I don't think 'parts per frame' sales would account for enough parts sales to be considered "good". Plus I and a lot of other folks I'm aware of have purchased Riv framesets for a stash of parts we already own.

[peanutgallery]

That's my deepest and darkest secret:)
It's vegan and Himalayan...and I'll never sell it

It's not fascination, it's just funny. And sad. Rivendell can't afford quirky sidelines.

Again, you seem to be taking it personally and you really shouldn't. Rivendell made some bad decisions and they are still bleeding money after a handout.

Listen, if ski merchant peanutgallery can't pay his bills and begs for money while he has ten cases of mustache wax going out of date in the back, I'll be the first to rib him about it.

[Burnette]

That's my deepest and darkest secret:)
It's vegan and Himalayan...and I'll never sell it

They always horde the good stuff!

[arazate]

[/QUOTE]It's not that they're not Surly. Far from it. They should be eating Surly's lunch. And owning a segment they've basically created with really kick-ass bikes and kick-ass accessories. What's there today by any external expression is not that.

If anything, what you construe as "they're not Surly" is some exasperation from those who recognize Grant and Riv's work for the visionary stuff it is, and that the guys who got it before anyone else now seem to be badly missing the plot for reasons that escape a lot of us, even with all this radical transparency.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but not comparing apples to apples, Surly is owned by behemoth QBP. Black Mountain comparisons run truer.

[Peter B]

Nm.

[raygunner]

When this thread was started numerous Paceline members not only contributed but laid out some solid fundamentals to improve the business.

I can't recite all of them but they ranged from expensive Bay Area location, pairing back the frame offerings, number of employees, etc.

I think everyone was pulling for them, as there's a ton of Riv fans here, myself included.

After the Hail Mary, were there any changes to shore up the business?

Maybe Joe knows as he seems to have a greater insight.

It seems like they keep veering away from offering things that people wanted. They don't have a Saluki but now they have a Clem Smith. They revamped the Atlantis and it honestly lacks the style it one has (curved tubes, anyone?).

And if Waterford got too expensive why not partner with another domestic framebuilder?

[54ny77]

Wait, it this a thread about Serotta?

:p

[arazate]

I'm a fan, and own a few of their earlier designs. Regarding their move overseas, could be that they are trying to maximize margins where they can. Folks will pay a premium for Rivendell, within reason. Building here in States would price them out of the market.

[charliedid]

I'm a fan, and own a few of their earlier designs. Regarding their move overseas, could be that they are trying to maximize margins where they can. Folks will pay a premium for Rivendell, within reason. Building here in States would price them out of the market.

Are they all built in Taiwan now? I've lost rack over the past 10 years.

[arazate]

I believe all current models are being made in Taiwan, I could be wrong though. Custom work will still go through Waterford, or the couple of builders they use.

For example, a Waterford Atlantis can still be had.

[charliedid]

I believe all current models are being made in Taiwan, I could be wrong though. Custom work will still go through Waterford, or the couple of builders they use.

For example, a Waterford Atlantis can still be had.

Got it, that's what I thought.

[happycampyer]

One data point that has struck me is how many more Rivendells there were at D2R2, say, ten years ago than there have been in the last few. It used to be that, if you wanted a nice 32+ mm tire, Rivendell was one of the few places to go for them (and Jack Browns were among the best available).

Grant Petersen was a visionary of the "all road" style of riding. As the "all-road" niche has grown into a full-fledged market segment, it seems that the flat-pedal, searsucker shirt-wearing segment is still a niche. And it's not as if expensive, US-made steel randonneuring bikes with racks and rim brakes aren't selling—look at Chapman and several other younger builders who are following in Peter Weigle's footsteps. If I had to pick a company that seems to be a (fairly) direct competitor doing things right in this space, it wouldn't by Black Mountain Cycles, but rather Compass. Probably no coincidence that both companies are run by fairly quirky owners.

[Joe Remi]

I think where comparisons to a lot of newer companies get apples/oranges is RBW is a full bike shop with employees as well as an online purveyor of framesets. I don't have any sort of conclusion to draw from this, just pointing it out.

[MikeD]

Looking at their catalog, are Rivendells still with the 1" threaded headset? If so, that would keep me from buying one of their bikes.

[NewDFWrider]

Someone mentioned Velo-Orange kind of seizing Rivendell 's rightful place. I present this:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsGbbo5HEdx/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=dvpyy7lq8lki

I like Grant 's writing a lot. Just can't justify his pricing. I would get a velo-orange first, unless you guys thought that the comparable rivendell rode better.

[CunegoFan]

Looking at their catalog, are Rivendells still with the 1" threaded headset? If so, that would keep me from buying one of their bikes.

This forum is retrogrouch central. Yet even here the Festive 500 thread is filled with pics of bikes with disc brakes. You see any of those in the catalog? And discs are standard for the gravel scene.

On Rivendell's Blug there is a post with pics of their first build with 12 speed. That post was not made years ago. It was made last month--well, November. Apparently it was done at a customer's insistence.

The thought that people want thumb shifters instead of any of the advancements that have been made in the last thirty years is freaking bizarre.

[Joe Remi]

This forum is retrogrouch central. Yet even here the Festive 500 thread is filled with pics of bikes with disc brakes. You see any of those in the catalog? And discs are standard for the gravel scene.

On Rivendell's Blug there is a post with pics of their first build with 12 speed. That post was not made years ago. It was made last month--well, November. Apparently it was done at a customer's insistence.

The thought that people want thumb shifters instead of any of the advancements that have been made in the last thirty years is freaking bizarre.

This is inaccurate. They have a prototype of the new mtb they're riding around with a modern 1x drivetrain, and a couple of the younger folks working there use that stuff.

[Burnette]

Someone mentioned Velo-Orange kind of seizing Rivendell 's rightful place. I present this:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsGbbo5HEdx/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=dvpyy7lq8lki

I like Grant 's writing a lot. Just can't justify his pricing. I would get a velo-orange first, unless you guys thought that the comparable rivendell rode better.

Agree, that Velo Orange in that Instagram link is nice! And it has disc brakes. If Rivendell is going to mainstream and modern components it doesn't look like it on their web site.

[bfd]

This is inaccurate. They have a prototype of the new mtb they're riding around with a modern 1x drivetrain, and a couple of the younger folks working there use that stuff.

To me this is what’s frustrating about Rivendell. As I pointed out earlier, they had a picture of the Roadeo outfitted with Sram Force components, which according to one guy is 10 speed and already outdated! The bike was their their “go-fast” and designed to attract riders interested in carbon bikes. But the photo was buried and if you didn’t know to look at the Roadeo, you wouldn’t see it.

Similarly, here you say they have a new prototype mtb with modern 1x drivetrain, but again no pictures?! If Rivendell wants to attract new customers, shouldn’t they show their bikes with the latest stuff that could actually attracts buyers?

They could still do the upright/sweep back bar thing, but by showing their bikes with modern equipment it would be a good thing for business, especially if they already offer it!

I know, Good Luck!