Virtual elevation vs Real elevation

[Wayne77]

This discussion is for the Zwifters out there. It is NOT a discussion to talk about the relative merits of virtual training and related downfalls of society and everything we hold dear about cycling. So that said, here's my question:

All else being equal (ie the smart trainer is correctly calibrated and is producing the right resistance and wattage measurements for a given gradient), is virtual elevation equal to real elevation in terms of effort involved and how good one can feel doing a Zwift ride with 6000' feet of climbing vs a real ride with 6000' feet of climbing?

I suppose oxygen levels at altitude come into play...I heard somewhere that there is a fairly specific altitude at which point it becomes a problem. I live and train at 4500'. Most of my outdoor epic climbing rides peak at a max of 7000' or 8000' feet. So I'm not sure how much of an oxygen penalty I'm paying at 7000' vs the base at 4500'.

How about the angle of your bike on a steep gradient. That changes your body position over the bb of course. How much does that come into play? Wahoo now sells the 'Climb' which elevates the front end. I'm sure a lot of the appeal there comes from the added realism, but I also wonder how much it adds to increasing the realism in terms of effort when climbing? A different way to look at this is whether one should slightly discount the Zwift elevation in terms of training value? If one is training for a climbing race and the weather sucks, can that person feel as good about their Zwift elevation?

Once I did a Rouvy HD video / virtual climb of the Tourmalet. I looked at the average gradient and then stacked a bunch of books under the front wheel to bring the bike to the same angle. Not sure if that increased the "legit-edness" of climbing the Tourmalet in my basement or not ;-)

[ceolwulf]

Here in Manitoba "climbing" is a foreign concept so no direct answers, but power requirements and resulting times at least seem to be relatively consistent with real life:

https://tempocyclist.com/2017/02/13/how-does-the-real-box-hill-compare-to-the-zwift-version/

[Wayne77]

Here in Manitoba "climbing" is a foreign concept so no direct answers, but power requirements and resulting times at least seem to be relatively consistent with real life:

https://tempocyclist.com/2017/02/13/how-does-the-real-box-hill-compare-to-the-zwift-version/

Thanks for the link. That’s pretty interesting...

[kramnnim]

If cadence and power are the same as they would be outside...and if there is a similar lack of inertia/flywheel effect, the efforts should be similar.

The Zwift time would probably be faster than outdoors since there’s no wind resistance or having to slow down for turns, etc. But riding indoors for long periods is more difficult than outdoors for most people.

If you’re just wanting to know if you can complete 60 miles/6k elevation outdoors when you can do it on Zwift...I’d say yes, you could. Might take an hour longer, will probably be more pleasant.

[ergott]

I gained a lot of climbing abilities since I've trained off season (indoor season). I don't elevate my front wheel, but I suppose that helps. When I do Watopia mountain with the trainer on full resistance it really feels like I'm doing those +10% grades. I'm in my lower gears and the crank turns over the same way.

I think there are enough benefits to consider it a serious part of training for mountainous riding if you can't get there all the time.

[dem]

I climb a lot. I'd say Zwift Mountain is more difficult than the equivalent outdoors mountain because outdoors your power is going to still be more choppy, you get lots of micro-recoveries in switchbacks, brief zig-zags, etc. Zwift you never lose resistance and there's no dead spots in your pedal stroke.

In the end, long climbs are all percentage of FTP over duration, there's no secret magic. Push your FTP up and you can cruise up mountains in Zone2 all day with the right gearing.

Re: altitude, it'll be altitude differential. If you're starting at 4000 and going to 8000, that's only a 4K difference.. not a huge deal. Coming from sea level, I start noticing around 7000-8000.. and Pike's Peak was the hardest climb I've ever done, due to the 10% grades from 13,000 to 14,000.

[Wayne77]

I gained a lot of climbing abilities since I've trained off season (indoor season). I don't elevate my front wheel, but I suppose that helps. When I do Watopia mountain with the trainer on full resistance it really feels like I'm doing those +10% grades. I'm in my lower gears and the crank turns over the same way.

I think there are enough benefits to consider it a serious part of training for mountainous riding if you can't get there all the time.

Good point...I hadn’t thought about the resistance settings in the Zwift menu. I have it at the default “middle” setting. Does sliding it all the way over make it more realistic in terms of effort?

Thanks everyone else for your comments. A month ago I got a wild hair and did a century with 7000’ of climbing and I was certainly pretty wasted by the end. Not sure what got into me to try it, but it was definitely less miserable than I really thought that much time on a trainer would be... But I did wonder how that effort compared to an equivalent ride outside. I hadn’t thought about wind resistance or the more constant resistance on a smart trainer.

[kramnnim]

Good point...I hadn’t thought about the resistance settings in the Zwift menu. I have it at the default “middle” setting. Does sliding it all the way over make it more realistic in terms of effort?

Thanks everyone else for your comments. A month ago I got a wild hair and did a century with 7000’ of climbing and I was certainly pretty wasted by the end. Not sure what got into me to try it, but it was definitely less miserable than I really thought that much time on a trainer would be... But I did wonder how that effort compared to an equivalent ride outside. I hadn’t thought about wind resistance or the more constant resistance on a smart trainer.

Yes, in the middle 50% setting it only imitates half the steepness of the virtual grade. Radio tower feels horrible at 100%

[makoti]

I've only done one run up to the tower while not in erg mode (I do most of my training in program mode, so the elevation is irrelevant), but that one time, with the slider @ 100%, felt very real in terms of effort and pain in my legs. Enough so that I switched out the 23 I had on the back to a 26. I was standing a lot to get up that.
I didn't elevate the front, though I have in the past. For zwifting, I wouldn't bother since it will make the climbs more realistic at the expense of all the flat & downhill sections.

[makoti]

Good point...I hadn’t thought about the resistance settings in the Zwift menu. I have it at the default “middle” setting. Does sliding it all the way over make it more realistic in terms of effort?

Thanks everyone else for your comments. A month ago I got a wild hair and did a century with 7000’ of climbing and I was certainly pretty wasted by the end. Not sure what got into me to try it, but it was definitely less miserable than I really thought that much time on a trainer would be... But I did wonder how that effort compared to an equivalent ride outside. I hadn’t thought about wind resistance or the more constant resistance on a smart trainer.

You did 100 miles INSIDE?? I love zwift, but son, you need help. ;)

[Wayne77]

Yes, in the middle 50% setting it only imitates half the steepness of the virtual grade. Radio tower feels horrible at 100%

Suddenly that 7000’ feet doesn’t seem so epic :-) Time for me to bump that slider over and get to work. The party is over. I have a sneaking suspicion my Zwift sessions are going to be VERY painful now.

[ergott]

I've done the metric century, still debating century since I'm in workout mode for the first pre season. FTP builder has been doing wonders with sub 10hrs a week of riding time and very scattered schedule. For the radio tower at 100% I usually use the bike with compact and I have a 32 out back. 39 up front and it's rough, 500ft elevation in no time.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Wayne77]

You did 100 miles INSIDE?? I love zwift, but son, you need help. ;)

Hahahaha :) but at least I got that black jersey

[ergott]

Suddenly that 7000’ feet doesn’t seem so epic :-) Time for me to bump that slider over and get to work. The party is over. I have a sneaking suspicion my Zwift sessions are going to be VERY painful now.2 years ago I did full epic KOM plus radio towers 4 times in a row (full slider). It was every bit as hard as the climbing at D2R2. 8k vert.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[ceolwulf]

It depends too a lot on what trainer you use. With something higher end like a Kickr you'll feel those really steep bits. With my Tacx Vortex anything over 8% all feels the same. My little guy on the screen just goes slower :)

[Wayne77]

I presume the workout TSS is accurate based on the actual effort I put in...but the elevation needs a big asterisk (not nearly 6500' - 7000'), and I supposed the elapsed time would be longer since the grades weren't as steep.

Anyway, this occurred on a day that I had planned an epic outdoor ride, I was all pumped up the evening before. Then I woke up to a nasty blizzard. I was bummed..then a little mad..then figured I'd stick it to the man above by doing it inside :). I still did some of the same prep - extensive stretching, food prep, etc. The nice thing is instead of putting it all in my jersey pockets all I had to do was stick it on a chair next to me. I did the first 40 miles at Zone 2, just rolling hills and flats. I did some Kindle reading for part of it :cool: Then at mile 65 I went upstairs for a 10 minute lunch break, then got back on the bike and hammered for the last 35 miles. I actually had a pretty good time. So either I need my head examined or Zwift is the real deal (when the weather doesn't agree with you)

**the tuff skin stuff there is for the KT tape I've been using for my knee. Keeps it in place better. Its just a tape adherent gymnasts use.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4766/39779360714_e4fdf04ac2_d.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4754/25618631597_aeb91c03d7_d.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4606/39779360994_cf806c817f_d.jpg

[Wayne77]

Agree! these days most of my Zwift riding is in workout mode, uploading proscribed interval sessions my coach sends me through TrainingPeaks. With a smart trainer and Zwift, my offseason mileage is easily double what it was last year. Without a smart trainer, weather this time of year only allows for the occassional ride. Not a limiting factor any more. I think a smart trainer is one of the best cycling investments I made last year.

I gained a lot of climbing abilities since I've trained off season (indoor season). I don't elevate my front wheel, but I suppose that helps. When I do Watopia mountain with the trainer on full resistance it really feels like I'm doing those +10% grades. I'm in my lower gears and the crank turns over the same way.

I think there are enough benefits to consider it a serious part of training for mountainous riding if you can't get there all the time.

[ergott]

That's odd. My Bushido can do at least 14%.

[Spdntrxi]

The radio tower climb on Zwift .. hurts

[Wayne77]

I found this:
https://zwiftinsider.com/using-the-trainer-difficulty-setting-in-zwift/

Makes the point that “It is important to understand that lowering or raising Trainer Difficulty does not make your ride easier or harder in terms of power output. You still have to put out the same cumulative watts to move the same distance as before.

“Trainer Difficulty” really is a misleading name for the setting–something like “Elevation Feel” or “Trainer Realism” may be better. As Chris Pollotta said on the Zwift Riders Facebook group, “It’s a cadence control more than anything.”

Trying to make sense of that. A hill with a steeper gradient will require more effort period...or lower gears. So maybe it’s not that I need to “discount” the elevation I’ve done to date, but my overall average speed for the ride would have been slower.

The article still is confusing to me though...I’ll have to give this some thought next time I do the radio tower :-)

**I did find out the Kickr Snap I have can simulate up to 12%.

[redir]

Nothing is better then the real thing. But in the end it's all about pushing on the pedals no matter is it flat or going up hill, virtual or real. You get out of it what you put into it. There is a lot of psychology in climbing especially if in competition that you might not get in the virtual world too.

[ergott]

Your speed won’t change. It’s a function of your power output. What will change is the feel. @100% you will tend to use a lower gear. The way you turn over the crank will feel more realistic since the rear wheel speed will be slower. Easiet to pedal squares as a result just like climbing really steep grades outdoors.

[Wayne77]

Your speed won’t change. It’s a function of your power output. What will change is the feel. @100% you will tend to use a lower gear. The way you turn over the crank will feel more realistic since the rear wheel speed will be slower. Easiet to pedal squares as a result just like climbing really steep grades outdoors.

That’s a key point I hadn’t thought of: pedaling dynamics. While output is the same, training for steep hills is also about the pedaling style...the steeper it is th harder it is to maintain a high cadence...so the max setting is definitely going to get me closer to reality. Maybe in the near future we’ll have smart trainers that not only elevate the front wheel up and down, but allow for side to side sway as well as turn banking, a smart blue tooth controlled cooling/heating fan that adjusts temps based on whether you’re climbing to the radio tower in arctic conditions or doing the jungle loop, simulates road conditions, including bone-rattling cobbles...and allows you to actually steer around people (not through them) ...and crash if you’re not paying attention. And of course it will integrate with 3D VR headsets for an immersive experience. An then there would have to be evil-villain curmudgeonly purists you have to avoid that will put a pump through your spokes if you’re not riding tubulars :-)

Much appreciated.

[Bostic]

The radio tower climb on Zwift .. hurts

With a smart trainer is this more realistic than a dumb trainer (KK road machine 2 for me)? Meaning are you in the 39t or 34t inner ring and the larger cogs in the back when it's a 15% grade? That's one thing that is not realistic on my dumb trainer as I'm always in the 50t and somewhere between the 11 and 15t cog. The physical effort is still exhausting as my little avatar is struggling at 4 and 5mph.

I always save my feather boost for the near top.

[ergott]

With a smart trainer is this more realistic than a dumb trainer (KK road machine 2 for me)? Meaning are you in the 39t or 34t inner ring and the larger cogs in the back when it's a 15% grade? That's one thing that is not realistic on my dumb trainer as I'm always in the 50t and somewhere between the 11 and 15t cog. The physical effort is still exhausting as my little avatar is struggling at 4 and 5mph.

I always save my feather boost for the near top.

Yes. I'm in my lowest couple of gears on a smart trainer. The pedaling style is very different from being on a dumb trainer even if you use a power meter for accurate measuring. You have the option of gearing to the cadence/power you want to put out. On a smart trainer, the terrain dictates the resistance and you have to shift accordingly.