Spiraling down the "Chinese carbon fiber bike frames and parts" hole on ebay

[dbnm]

Wow, I never realized there was so much Chinese carbon fiber stuff on ebay.

Wow.

[Cicli]

Wow, I never realized there was so much Chinese carbon fiber stuff on ebay.

Wow.

Yeah, bunch of junque.

[Gummee]

Stay away from the ebay stuff and go to the bigger name resellers: Hongfu, Dengfu, Light Bicycle, Icann, Nextie, and Yeoleo and you should be just fine.

M

[belopsky]

I've never been tempted by eBay carbon..but titanium and cnc and alum..yo betcha

[eBAUMANN]

i was never tempted until i came to own a "cx028" disc cx frame...thing is pretty darn nice for $5-600...

[Gummee]

i was never tempted until i came to own a "cx028" disc cx frame...thing is pretty darn nice for $5-600...

The cost ratio of name brand bikes becomes out of whack when you ride a chinese carbon frame. Especially for a race bike. If you break 1/year you're still ahead.

Like I said: as long as you stick to the name brand resellers.

Oh, and BHS has Gigantex rims. They're Taiwanese.

M

[Kontact]

There's no accountability. If the fork fails that you got from Kungpao143 on ebay, they are not buying you new teeth. So there is no motivation to have high QC on critical parts.

[dbnm]

I'm not buying anything. I was just pretty amazed by the amount of stuff there. The carbon wheel selection is nuts.

[pbarry]

What could go wrong?

[C40_guy]

What could go wrong?

Yea, Spinergy just did fine with their 8 spoke carbon wheels...and they had labs and engineers and everything...

Once I saw a photo of a failed Spinergy wheel, I went back to wheels with actual spokes. :)

[C40_guy]

What could go wrong?

Some components I just won't mess with...I like my teeth too much...

[pbarry]

Some folks get it. :beer:

[Gummee]

Some components I just won't mess with...I like my teeth too much...

I already don't have them.

Chinese carbon does fine IF you stick with the big names

M

[pbarry]

I already don't have them.

Chinese carbon does fine IF you stick with the big names

M

How's the warranty? Have you had one yet? No dog in the hunt here..

[redir]

Just don't do it.

[PNW]

They sell a lot of weight weenie stuff :hello: LOL

[Andy sti]

I have a bunch of bikes and a bunch of really nice bikes. I also have 2 open mold Chinese carbon frames. They are both a few years old and have been perfect. My cross bike is from Miracle bikes and my hardtail MTB is from IPlay. Plenty of miles, plenty of hard races and plenty of wins on the cx bike. I've been very satisfied.

[bmeryman]

How's the warranty? Have you had one yet? No dog in the hunt here..

I can't speak to the warranty quality of any eBay carbon, but I had a Light Bicycle set of rims and broke one on a mountain bike ride that would have dented an aluminum rim too and it held air all the way home. I reached out to them with pictures and a brief explanation aiming for some sort of crash replacement pricing, but they sent a new rim for free. Pretty happy with that experience. The only downside for me was waiting almost a month for the replacement rim to arrive.

Just a data point for anyone looking.

[mtechnica]

Man it’s always the same arguments every time. Fact is most or maybe all of you people hating on Chinese or Taiwanese frames haven’t used one. A bunch of hand wringing about what might go wrong. Please do some research and see how many have failed, versus how many failures happen from “real” brands. As far as I can tell most of the stuff besides the really cheap garbage is fine and some of it is just as good as the big brands.

That said I wouldn’t buy one either :banana:

[glepore]

Paranoia will destroy ya.

I've been riding off brand Chinese carbon parts for the last 5-6 years. Wheels, frames, handlebars, seatposts, seats. Never had one failure. None. One bike was crashed twice, once a double flip at 25 mph when I stood to sprint and a (non Chinese) cleat broke. Never a single issue. Never.

Caveat-I'm 130 lbs and an ftp in the very low 200's. But really. I've seen more broken $5000 Lightweights than Chinese carbon parts.

If you actually worked with the material (I have, on a diy scale) you'd realize that its not rocket science, until you get into molding complex shapes like frames and wheels, and even then its doable easily on an industrial scale.

Even the really light stuff-the 260g integrated bar/stem that everyone would be gaga about in the weenie world if it came from Schmolke - I've not seen one report of failure despite starting a couple threads about them in other places.

So hate if you must.

[andrewsuzuki]

I've gone as far as ebay carbon bottle cages. $20 for a pair and little to no risk of injury if they break. They grip tight, only one jumpin' bottle after one year :)

[andrewsuzuki]

Please do some research and see how many have failed, versus how many failures happen from “real” brands.

Unfortunately you also can't draw conclusions based on the number of incidents you see posted online. When your chinese/taiwanese carbon frame breaks, there's little incentive to post about it online, since it's sure to be met with 20 people armed and ready to chastise you for buying it in the first place :)

[Wayne77]

Some random points:

- Carbon fiber isn't some mystical wonder material with a split personality that will spontaneously explode if you scowl at it.

- There's a glut of "Chinese" CF out there because a) so many people want carbon period..some for performance reasons many because its cool and that's what everyone else has, b) Production costs go down drastically with volume. Not saying they go down more or less than building metal frames, just making the point that there are still good profit margins in relation to cost of materials even when selling at very low prices. c) The price disparity between what the big brands charge and the no-name stuff from China is huge. This drives demand. d) labor laws, patent laws, etc, in China, Taiwan, etc are nearly non-existent.

- The "globalization" of CF products (in large part due to the above point) will eventually drive US branded CF prices down significantly. As off-brand CF product become more widely available through legit channels (which also implies more transparency around QC and adherence to quality standards), and the consumer becomes more aware of this and more educated about point #1 above, I personally think the glory days of selling a CF seat post for $300 will soon come to an end. All that said, I don't think this applies as much to boutique / custom carbon. In those cases you're not paying a premium because its carbon, you're paying a premium because its custom and you like the brand ethos.

- One can make a compelling argument that US branded CF product is significantly overpriced. While I am all for demand based pricing, history has proven that eventually the glory days of significant profit margin (once R&D costs level out) based purely on demand will come to an end. Prices will level out...US branded CF will continue to come down and Off-brand generic carbon will come up a bit as those players gain more visibility, invest more in legit distribution channels, and comply more with QC and brand protection controls.

- There is no reason all the hand-wringing and worry about Chinese carbon shouldn't also apply to Chinese aluminum or Chinese steel or Chinese unobtanium, Chinese plastic, etc. There have been just as many, if not more failures with aluminum as there have been with carbon. The only reason this conversation is about carbon is because of point #2 above.

- I use "Chinese" here only because that's the typical way the argument is framed. I don't think 'China' is really a key data point here. Labor laws, brand protection, price disparity (regardless of country) are far more relevant in my opinion.

- Anecdote: a couple years ago I bought some 3T Aeronova bars. I payed a premium. A short time later a friend bought a generically branded version of what looks like the EXACT SAME bar for $75 from Amazon. I believe they were made in China. Before either bar was wrapped we compared them side by side. Weight was identical. The lay up patterns we could see through the clear coat was IDENTICAL. Not to say there weren't differences in the lower layers but visibly we could not see any difference externally. As mentioned there is no magical ju-ju that goes into making things with CF.

- Most Chinese CF product is heavier than its equivalent branded counter part. If you look at the weight of a set of Chinese 50mm clinchers sold on ebay, in nearly every case they are quite a bit heavier than a similarly shaped branded wheel. Weight doesn't imply more reliability of course, but featherweight does often correlate to increased failure. I'm no expert here but I would bet that it would be far more difficult to sell produce this product at such low prices if the layup was equally light & equally stiff. That's where the expenses related to expertise and R&D come into play.

- To my knowledge carbon doesn't have a failure mode relating to flex. Steel, aluminum, and even Ti does. As long as the carbon is structurally sound to begin with, and as long as it stays that way, it won't eventually soften or fail. I've heard this echoed by several bike industry CF experts. Of course it has a rapid failure rate once the structure is compromised but it won't fail due to age like flexing metal will. The wings of a Boeing 787 are carbon fiber. They are designed to flex to an extent that the tips can be nearly vertical at both upper and lower extremes. Those wings WILL NOT fail due to aging. I only bring this up to support the idea that this discussion is every bit as relevant to off-brand / loose QC controlled aluminum or steel...and in some cases even more so.

-Due to the above point I have no issue buying used CF wheels. I worry more about well-used aluminum wheels.

- I think a far more interesting discussion is the Ethics at play here. We are rightfully concerned when we see a Chinese frame on Alibaba that looks identical to a Dogma. That said I don't think we should hold our breaths that as Chinese cf product increasingly penetrates the US market place, that "shape" will ever be a factor in an court case dealing with patent/brand/trademark protection.

[eBAUMANN]

Well said Wayne, well said.

One compromise you can make to mitigate the "i like my teeth" factor is to sub out the fork (for something "name brand"). You'd still come in way under the cost of a comparable big name frame without sacrificing performance, and in some cases gaining a threaded bb shell!

As far as rims go, nextie, farsports, and light bicycle all make excellent stuff. I would not hesitate to buy more (already own 2 sets) if I ever had a need.

[thegunner]

Well said Wayne, well said.

One compromise you can make to mitigate the "i like my teeth" factor is to sub out the fork (for something "name brand"). You'd still come in way under the cost of a comparable big name frame without sacrificing performance, and in some cases gaining a threaded bb shell!

As far as rims go, nextie, farsports, and light bicycle all make excellent stuff. I would not hesitate to buy more (already own 2 sets) if I ever had a need.

i've had farsports rims for the past 3 seasons, and they held together better than any of my other wheels. *shrug* whatevs, curmudgeons be curmudgeons.

[pavel]

There's no accountability. If the fork fails that you got from Kungpao143 on ebay, they are not buying you new teeth. So there is no motivation to have high QC on critical parts.

Is there any evidence of name brands having ever bought any one new teeth when their products fail?

[cnighbor1]

while on Mt diablo at the junction I spoke with an older gentleman
He mentioned that his friend was a rep for Pinarello and had some of their carbon fiber frames built in china FS without their name on it
Seems china frame builder just makes extra frames and sells has no name frames
Point is some great CF frames are built in china
But they sure can crank out the $25 CF with fork frames by the 1000's
The quality of those in serious ?

[jemoryl]

I've gone as far as ebay carbon bottle cages. $20 for a pair and little to no risk of injury if they break. They grip tight, only one jumpin' bottle after one year :)

I just purchased a pair for $20 from aliexpress and they are a very attractive shape, with a nice satin CF finish and seem to grip the bottles well. If someone threw a boutique name on them they could probably be sold for $50 each. In fact, they probably are.

[Gummee]

How's the warranty? Have you had one yet? No dog in the hunt here..

Out of the 3 chinese carbon frames I've owned, as well as the guys I know with them, no warranty issues.

The warranty is 2 years from the manufacturers I've used. If I did need it, it'd be a PITA 'cause I've heard that they want the frame back to examine. Haven't had to try the process yet tho.

M

[Gummee]

Is there any evidence of name brands having ever bought any one new teeth when their products fail?

Zipp

IDK about teef, but the hub recall bit a sorta customer in the butt. His fault cause he didn't return the wheel to get the hub done. Till he crashed, I hadn't heard it being an issue, just precautionary.

So... if you have an older Zipp front hub that is supposed to be recalled, do it.

M

[Matthew]

I've only done the bottle cage thing so far too. Appear to be very nice but have not used them yet due to the weather. Hoping to this weekend. Grip the bottle tight, will see how they perform in the real world though. But for $22 for the pair I will be happy with a season out of them.

[Wayne77]

Backing up a product with a guarantee has far more to do with maintaining brand equity, reputation, and customer good will than it does about a given product’s likelihood of failure. Build Quality and Warranty are two very different things. As volumes and distribution channels go up, the ability to control for QC issues goes down. I would bet money that larger/high volume companies, that have a skin in the “reputation game” not only predict rates of failure, they plan for it and they budget for it.

That’s why Trek replaced without question 2 cf rims with a small manufacturing defect for me even though one of their techs at a Trek factory store said they were perfectly safe and another tech at a different Trek factory store was on the fence. Replacing the rims ultimately was a very small cost out of budget hey had already allocated. Zero impact on bottom line. If this same issue occurred with rims from a much smaller manufacturer, the outcomes could have been completelty different.

Long story short, in my opinion: China company willingness and/or ability to provide the same level of product support as US brand X: legitimate concern. China company frame likelihood of failure vs US brand X likelihood of failure: there is simply no data to support one way or the other....but there’s plenty of paranoia based more on emotion than fact. There are just as many anecdotal examples of US brand cf failures as there are China generic brand failures.