What Happened to Tubular Popularity?

[Blown Reek]

I mean, I can understand the decline in popularity of Campy, but why tubulars? It seems that, at one time, tubulars were the only option, but as time went on, clinchers overtook tubulars in popularity, even though some people still ride tubulars. Given, they're cantankerous old men who pine for the glory days of downtube shifters, box rims, and Delta brakes, but they seem to be holdouts to the "tubulars are superior" mindset, and are a vocal bunch. If you can get the same performance out of a modern clincher as you can from a tubular, what's the point? Campagnolo?

Hmmm.

[El Chaba]

I use tubulars and Campagnolo....

[djg21]

I mean, I can understand the decline in popularity of Campy, but why tubulars? It seems that, at one time, tubulars were the only option, but as time went on, clinchers overtook tubulars in popularity, even though some people still ride tubulars. Given, they're cantankerous old men who pine for the glory days of downtube shifters, box rims, and Delta brakes, but they seem to be holdouts to the "tubulars are superior" mindset, and are a vocal bunch. If you can get the same performance out of a modern clincher as you can from a tubular, what's the point? Campagnolo?

Hmmm.

Clincher technology has gotten much better and good tubulars are more expensive and far less convenient than good clinchers.

[fiamme red]

It's simple: cyclists have become "Nancies." ;)

[tuscanyswe]

I only have 2 sets of non tubular wheels out of 10 or so. Still popular at my house .)

[oldguy00]

Clincher technology has gotten much better and good tubulars are more expensive and far less convenient than good clinchers.

This. Plus the usual reluctance of most folks to want to deal with gluing.

I was a long time tubular user, but clinchers just seem to make more sense now. I still believe tubular -can- ride nicer, but not by a huge margin anymore. Wheels are being designed in a way that 23mm tires balloon out to 25mm or more, with low rolling resistance and a lot of comfort.
A top of the line clincher tire like the GP4000SII can be found online very easily for $35 US. And its just so easy to swap out to a new tire on race day, etc.

I think the main reason pro's still use tubulars is because they are safer when they flat, and can be ridden flat, at least for a little while, while they wait for a support car to get to them.

[CSKeller]

I'm the same as El Chaba...

Campy and tubulars on all 3 of my current road bikes...hope to have #4 built up later this year.

Switched to Campy in 2001 and haven't looked back.

Made the move to tubulars in 2010 thanks to Old Potatoe and Vecchio's who built up my first tubbie wheelset, Record hubs on Major Tom rims. I really don't look at clinchers anymore...I do have one set of Shamals that I run tubeless that are now kind of a backup wheelset.

[CSKeller]

Tubulars are not difficult at all.

A slight learning curve but gluing is easy and straight-forward. The Effetto Mariposa Carogna tape makes things super easy!!!

BTW, I had many more flats when I ran normal clinchers than I have had on tubulars. (Knock on wood!!!)

[cmg]

i have 2 wheelsets that are tubulars never had a problem with flats. all bikes use campy, no problem either.

[FlashUNC]

Tubulars are great. Its the people that are the problem.

[fogrider]

I pretty much ride tubulars on all my road bikes. If you want lightweight wheels in the 1200 gram range and aero, there's very little that will compete. Tubeless has taken a share of the market, but then you're over 1500 grams. Vittoria Corsa have been the go to tire recently, great ride and about $35 a tire.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[coffeecake]

Not adding much, but...

Clinchers are just so much more convenient. If I get a flat while training, it takes me around 5 minutes to get back riding (assuming the puncture isn't catastrophic).

If I flat a tubular, sure I can hit it with sealant, or peel it off and swap it out, but then I have to spend an hour when I get home gluing on a new tire. Once the tire is punctured, I would have trouble feeling confident cornering on it in a race or a hard group ride. So to me, the expensive tire is now trash.

(Disclaimer: I race on tubulars and ride campy)

[djg21]

Tubulars are not difficult at all.

A slight learning curve but gluing is easy and straight-forward. The Effetto Mariposa Carogna tape makes things super easy!!!

BTW, I had many more flats when I ran normal clinchers than I have had on tubulars. (Knock on wood!!!)

C’mon! Tubulars are much more of a hassle.

I rode and raced on tubulars exclusively throughout the 80s and 90s. I loved the way Vittoria CXs and CGs felt compared the crappy clinchers of the day, and as a big rider, I’d get snakebite punctures whenever I tried to ride a narrow clinchers.

But tubies were a huge hassle. I remember unfondly the days of having tires in my closet prestretching on old rims, and pregluing and gluing tires, and having to find ways to carry multiple spare tires on long rides, and spending hours cutting apart and resewing tire casings to repair $50 tubulars (very expensive back then) that punctured on the first day of use.

Ride modern wider clincher rims like a HED Belgiums or Belgium plus rims, with good quality tires and latex tubes, and the ride quality is pretty damn close to that of a quality tubular. A good clincher setup rides far better that the affordable garden-hose quality tubulars you use for training and every-day riding. And quality tubulars are far more expensive than clinchers.

I don’t miss tubulars at all. I know can just ride my bike and carry a couple of spare tubes and a patch kit in my saddle bag. In a pinch, I can walk into any bike shop and purchase a tire. This is not the case with tubies.

When Conti makes a GP4000II in tubeless (Conti is working on it I was told at HAHBS), I’ll likely go that route. Until then, clinchers are great.

[FlashUNC]

Folks are always eager to point out the technological advancements in clinchers, and imply that somehow tubulars have been sitting still over the same amount of time.

Vittoria Corsa G+ tubulars are the jam man, and ride better than even the clincher version of the same tire.

[saab2000]

Wide rims happened.

[Clean39T]

I started down the tubular road and pulled back - it just didn't seem worth it to me given I like the ride of supple clinchers and latex tubes, and am not planning on racing. My next move will probably be to trying tubeless on my fat-tire road bike. And I think fatter tires and lower pressures in general are taking market-share from tubulars. There simply aren't many tubulars bigger than 28c. And if you're rolling 32s tubeless, the marginal gains for tubulars seem hard to find anyway. Plus, once you're up to wider tires, the weight difference gets lost in the shuffle. So, summing up, it's a combo of less people racing, less people riding narrower tires where the differences are more noticeable, and of course fear and perceived hassle...

[Mark McM]

Tubulars usage was already dying and on the way out a decade or more ago, but the advent of carbon rims gave them a reprieve. Since reliable carbon clincher rims were not available for many years after carbon rims became popular, those who wanted to use carbon rims had no choice but to use tubulars. Now that carbon clinchers have become more reliable and more available, many (if not most) carbon rim users have switched to clinchers, and there's little compelling reason for the vast majority of riders to stick with tubulars.

[yakstone]

I ride Campy and tubulars.

I don't see gluing tires as a hassle nor is it a hassle to change one on the ride if necessary.

To each his own.

[oldpotatoe]

I mean, I can understand the decline in popularity of Campy, but why tubulars? It seems that, at one time, tubulars were the only option, but as time went on, clinchers overtook tubulars in popularity, even though some people still ride tubulars. Given, they're cantankerous old men who pine for the glory days of downtube shifters, box rims, and Delta brakes, but they seem to be holdouts to the "tubulars are superior" mindset, and are a vocal bunch. If you can get the same performance out of a modern clincher as you can from a tubular, what's the point? Campagnolo?

Hmmm.

Given, they're cantankerous old men who pine for the glory days of downtube shifters, box rims, and Delta brakes, but they seem to be holdouts to the "tubulars are superior" mindset, and are a vocal bunch

I recognize that guy!!

Can’t get the same ‘performance’ out of a modern clincher...much closer now but still. Tubulars are more comfy, no pinch flats, don’t come off rim if flat(glued on correctly), rounder so corner better, more flexible sidewalks...overall a little lighter package. Why do people use a analog, mechanical watch when a cheaper electronic digital watch is more accurate? :eek:

[Gummee]

Tubulars are great. Its the people that are the problem.

That can be said of lots of things.

Me? Lots of both in my garage. For gravel, I'm usually on a tubular wheelset. If I'm not on the tubulars, I'm on tubeless.

M

[Hindmost]

Anyone else remember repairing tubulars in the evening just so you be able to ride the next day with spares? Good clinchers hadn't been invented yet and I didn't really have the means. Anyone?

[crankles]

I love my Vittoria open Paves...but I love my Vittoria Pave tubulars even more.

[john903]

Yep, Campy and tubulars for me. I am 55 am I old? My wife says I am not cantankerous though.
Have a great day.

[oldpotatoe]

Anyone else remember repairing tubulars in the evening just so you be able to ride the next day with spares? Good clinchers hadn't been invented yet and I didn't really have the means. Anyone?

Still do, repair my tubulars..not so I have a spare but yup, still fix mine sometimes.

[Kontact]

This seems like it would have been a good thread in 1988. MA40s and other durable, light rims came out along with quality skinwall clinchers.

[crankles]

Anyone else remember repairing tubulars in the evening just so you be able to ride the next day with spares? Good clinchers hadn't been invented yet and I didn't really have the means. Anyone?

sort of yes...I grew up racing in Michigan, so repairing a pile of sew-ups was done in the cold winter evenings. Since I worked at a shop and got supplies at cost, I made a bit of cash repairing others as well.

[andrewsuzuki]

Vittoria Corsa G+ tubulars are the jam man, and ride better than even the clincher version of the same tire.

Bicyclerollingresistance cites the crr as nearly identical (+/- 0.1w) with a butyl tube (~4w less with two latex tubes), crr being inversely correlated with ride quality. Haven't tried them personally though, so you could be right.

The Corsa Speed on the other hand shows a clear preference towards the tubeless clincher.

[unterhausen]

I remember trying to repair tubulars. I don't think I have enough patience to do it right.

I was in high school when the first 1" clinchers and box rims to fit became available. So I would swap back and forth between 27x1 and 700c on race day. Then we could get 700c x 25mm tires and the rest is history.

[Luwabra]

tubeless happened. I loved racing tubs but w the advent of tubeless you can get really close to performance , no pinch flats, uhh no flats at all unless its a tear, oh and no flats. also a hassle to change tires but nothing like a tubular pita. tire choices will catch up with the demand shortly ex conti gp4000 .IMO.

i do everything I can to avoid tubes on all wheel systems I own. 1 is carried for emergency use but thats it.

[glepore]

There aren't a whole lot of options for very light, aero non tubular wheels still. While good clinchers with latex tubes are very very good, tubulars still have an edge in the areas set forth by old potatoe. I ride both, but really prefer a good wide veloflex or fmb sewup.

[zap]

I plan on riding tubulars again........most likely be the only one in the group.......again.

[John H.]

Tubulars haven't been popular for more than 30 years.

Doesn't make them bad, just not the popular choice for most riders.

[OtayBW]

Wide rims happened.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
That, plus Vittoria Corsa G+ (or your fave...) and latex tubes = perty derned good....:hello:

[oldpotatoe]

Ding! Ding! Ding!
That, plus Vittoria Corsa G+ (or your fave...) and latex tubes = perty derned good....:hello:

Nancy......,

->>!!!!!:)

[OtayBW]

Nancy......,

->>!!!!!:)
Ha-RUMPH! :no: :rolleyes:

[Kontact]

Ding! Ding! Ding!
That, plus Vittoria Corsa G+ (or your fave...) and latex tubes = perty derned good....:hello:

We were saying similar things in the early '90s about good tire and tube combos, and whether that was true or not, enough people believed the difference was small enough to stop messing with glue. Even some pros back then.

[bikinchris]

Tubular ARE superior in every way. They ride better, grip better, don't pinch flat as easy and are lighter. Except they cost more, wear quicker puncture easier and are not as safe when a spare is installed.
So clinchers make more sense for all uses other than race day. On the track, tubulars rule.

[bikinchris]

We were saying similar things in the early '90s about good tire and tube combos, and whether that was true or not, enough people believed the difference was small enough to stop messing with glue. Even some pros back then.

Pros ride what they are paid to ride. Never take equipment advice from watching pro races or see in advertizing.

[palincss]

Tubular ARE superior in every way. They ride better, grip better, don't pinch flat as easy and are lighter. Except they cost more, wear quicker puncture easier and are not as safe when a spare is installed.

And are a lot harder to fix when they do puncture. So there are four ways in which they are "superior in every way", and five ways in which they are not. I'd say the NAYs have it...

[El Chaba]

This thread is a lot like the Campy thread in that people who don't own or have never used the product in question are lecturing those who do about how the product doesn't work and sucks.

[saab2000]

This thread is a lot like the Campy thread in that people who don't own or have never used the product in question are lecturing those who do about how the product doesn't work and sucks.

Very true. I still have three bikes on tubulars and rode one of them just a few days ago. Coincidentally, that bike also is Record 10!

[ultraman6970]

So much misconceptions about tubulars that is just insane how people run away from them. Personally i gave their chance to clinchers and I had to come back to tubulars, and for me is not about the comfort it is about my rate of punctures, in less than 3 months got more punctures in clincher than the ones I got in 30 years using tubulars.

[.RJ]

For all of you cranky tubular riding campy users, how many miles a year are you putting on your tubulars? Training 5k, 8k, 10k miles a year?

Clinchers have gotten really good. I wont ride garbage tires, but with putting a fair amount of miles out on the road I just cant see the hassle of tubulars being worth it for me. Yes, they are hassle compared to dropping by the shop on my ride home, buying 2 new vittoria corsas and putting them on the bike in 15 minutes.

[Kontact]

So much misconceptions about tubulars that is just insane how people run away from them. Personally i gave their chance to clinchers and I had to come back to tubulars, and for me is not about the comfort it is about my rate of punctures, in less than 3 months got more punctures in clincher than the ones I got in 30 years using tubulars.

Speaking of misconceptions, why would a clincher get more punctures than a tubular? They have the same layers and are the same width and thickness.

[.RJ]

Speaking of misconceptions, why would a clincher get more punctures than a tubular? They have the same layers and are the same width and thickness.

Magic tubular dust

[saab2000]

For all of you cranky tubular riding campy users, how many miles a year are you putting on your tubulars? Training 5k, 8k, 10k miles a year?

Clinchers have gotten really good. I wont ride garbage tires, but with putting a fair amount of miles out on the road I just cant see the hassle of tubulars being worth it for me. Yes, they are hassle compared to dropping by the shop on my ride home, buying 2 new vittoria corsas and putting them on the bike in 15 minutes.

Thousands of miles. Also, my anecdotal experience is that I do flat less often with my tubulars. I have no evidence to back this up nor do I have any agenda of trying to convert people. I’ve just been using them since I got my first road racing bike in 1984. I ride clinchers more nowadays because they’re so close in ride quality that even after 35 years on tubulars I can barely tell the difference. I can tell the difference, but it’s so small as to not matter to me.

When my stash of tubular tires is gone I may be done with them. That’s still a few years away though.

[rwsaunders]

I use tubulars and Campagnolo....

...and I vote. I see a bumper sticker in the making.

[thwart]

Speaking of misconceptions, why would a clincher get more punctures than a tubular? They have the same layers and are the same width and thickness.
Simplifying things a bit, I’d say.

Different construction, and most good ones have a latex tube. And... of course tubulars can be run at a lower pressure without much concern about pinch flatting.

My own personal experience is that I’m more than twice as likely to flat a clincher as a tubular. That’s obviously anecdotal but others have had similar experiences.

[uber]

Campy and tubulars. I just like them. If you don't think the tubulars are too much work, they aren't. I have never found them to be too labor intensive. It takes time and effort to shave my legs too. Hah. Ride what you like. Enjoy every minute.

[Kontact]

Simplifying things a bit, I’d say.

Different construction, and most good ones have a latex tube. And... of course tubulars can be run at a lower pressure without much concern about pinch flatting.

My own personal experience is that I’m more than twice as likely to flat a clincher as a tubular. That’s obviously anecdotal but others have had similar experiences.

I can see it for pinch flats, but a thorn is going to puncture through exactly the same layers on the tubular as a regular clincher - rubber, casing, tube.

[saab2000]

I can see it for pinch flats, but a thorn is going to puncture through exactly the same layers on the tubular as a regular clincher - rubber, casing, tube.

Seems to be logical. I can’t explain it but I definitely flat less on my tubulars. The difference is that I use Veloflex tubulars and Vittoria clinchers. Maybe the rubber compound is different. The Veloflex tubulars don’t have much grit adherence. The Vittoria clinchers seem to allow more road grit to stick.

Again, no proof. Just tens of thousands of miles riding both over many years.

Both have their pros and cons. Most people choose clinchers. This thread is proof that spring can’t arrive soon enough.

[KarlC]

Sell me your Campy Bora tubular wheels, Ill take them !!

[Kontact]

Seems to be logical. I can’t explain it but I definitely flat less on my tubulars. The difference is that I use Veloflex tubulars and Vittoria clinchers. Maybe the rubber compound is different. The Veloflex tubulars don’t have much grit adherence. The Vittoria clinchers seem to allow more road grit to stick.

Again, no proof. Just tens of thousands of miles riding both over many years.

Both have their pros and cons. Most people choose clinchers. This thread is proof that spring can’t arrive soon enough.

If the Vittorias have a soft, waxy rubber that is definitely going to give glass chips and the like more opportunities to cut through if they don't on the first rotation.

[11.4]

Given, they're cantankerous old men who pine for the glory days of downtube shifters, box rims, and Delta brakes, but they seem to be holdouts to the "tubulars are superior" mindset, and are a vocal bunch.

Beg pardon, but you got the wrong era. It was the glory days of downtime shifters, box rims, and first generation Campagnolo brakes, and tubulars are indeed superior. If one considers cycling to be at least in significant part an extensive collection of learned skills, one learns more about tire pressures and use of different tires and with a little discernment comes to realize that tubulars are more amenable to optimization in skilled hands than are clinchers. The cantankerous old men learned cycling when you had to know more than how to spell "Specialized."

[saab2000]

If the Vittorias have a soft, waxy rubber that is definitely going to give glass chips and the like more opportunities to cut through if they don't on the first rotation.

That seems to be my experience. But the Vittorias also have a nice ride, nearly equal to the Veloflex. So I put up with the occasional flat. I'm not generally flat-prone on tubulars or clinchers but the clinchers seem to flat more than my tubulars.

On the other side, I got a set of 23mm Continental clincher tires (high level ones) with a purchase a few years back. I run them on my Pacenti Forza rims with a 20.5 internal width rims and they're close enough for hand grenades on the ride quality when I run them about 75-80 in the rear and 70-75 on the front.

I'm a believer in wide rims and common sense tires and common sense pressures. No blow offs yet but I'm very cautious. My best clincher experiences have been with 23mm tires with wide rims. Like this one below. As close to a tubular as I've yet had. In this picture this rear 23mm Vittoria Open CX is inflated to about 75 PSI. For most riding it's 99% the equal to a high level tubular like a Vittoria, in the estimation of this 35 year user of both. And being many pounds overweight my riding would improve far more by losing some weight off the belly than by worrying about tubular vs. clincher.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8578/28681140142_6efd0e51c8_c.jpg

[Kirk007]

While some will claim they don't care about weight of their bike, while straddling their 8-900 gram carbon frame, with top end gruppo, carbon post, stem and handlebars, and their carbon clinchers firmly attached in the dropouts, I do wonder if they are aware of the 2-300 grams of additional weight they're dragging around as a result of their convenient wheel choice?

For Example: Campy Bora 35 Ones: 1360 vs 1170 (a little more discrepancy on the Bora 35 discs.

Just sayin ....

[fogrider]

While some will claim they don't care about weight of their bike, while straddling their 8-900 gram carbon frame, with top end gruppo, carbon post, stem and handlebars, and their carbon clinchers firmly attached in the dropouts, I do wonder if they are aware of the 2-300 grams of additional weight they're dragging around as a result of their convenient wheel choice?

For Example: Campy Bora 35 Ones: 1360 vs 1170 (a little more discrepancy on the Bora 35 discs.

Just sayin ....

nothing accelerates faster than lightweight tubulars!

[ultraman6970]

Magic dust as somebody said?? :D

You are a scientific guy, there is no way to back up claims with numbers but if you look, pretty much everybody say the same thing... "way less punctures". Tubular deforms more than a clincher in the horizontal plane but at the same time are stiffer at the sides, thats why they roll nice. You cant do that with a clincher at all, the thing will be the same all over, they will be or hard or softer all over. If too hard the ride will suck, if they make them too soft they get cuts and puntures almost all the time at the sides... the other thing to factor is luck, and the other one is the PSI sweet spot. In a clincher is way too hard to find a PSI sweet spot that will keep you out of trouble.

The other detail is that you gave an extreme case of thorns, in some towns west you have those rolling thorn things all over the place, between you and me I would not ride tubbies there at all :D Those are extreme cases, you cant make points with stuff like that, but I been in races with sections of 10 or 15 km of grabble and if you are way too unlucky you will get a nice flat. It is, what it is :D

But yeah, if you need numbers well... there's no studies that I know of, but always you can do them :D

Speaking of misconceptions, why would a clincher get more punctures than a tubular? They have the same layers and are the same width and thickness.

[Vientomas]

I rode tubulars way back when...more years ago than I want to think about. Gave up road riding for mountain biking and then returned to the road bike with clinchers. After years of riding clinchers on the road bike, I wanted a light weight set of carbon wheels. I looked into carbon clinchers and tubulars. After reading the many posts of tubular fans here, and comparing the weight and structure between carbon tubular and clincher wheels, I picked up a set of HED Stinger 4's and Vittoria 25c tubulars. The Stingers replaced HED Ardennes with 28c Panaracer clinchers. The result - the Stingers with tubulars are pure unadulterated butter smooth speed. Knock on wood..no flats in two years. Oh, and I ride Campagnolo too :)

[Kontact]

While some will claim they don't care about weight of their bike, while straddling their 8-900 gram carbon frame, with top end gruppo, carbon post, stem and handlebars, and their carbon clinchers firmly attached in the dropouts, I do wonder if they are aware of the 2-300 grams of additional weight they're dragging around as a result of their convenient wheel choice?

For Example: Campy Bora 35 Ones: 1360 vs 1170 (a little more discrepancy on the Bora 35 discs.

Just sayin ....

The rubber + spare weight is roughly the same, so the weight penalty is primarily in making a carbon rim strong enough to hold a bead. With alloy rims there is virtually no difference.

But if the point of the exercise is to throw the most money at the bike, then the most expensive clincher rims are heavier than the most expensive tubular rim.

[smontanaro]

I use tubulars and Campagnolo....Ditto. When I got into vintage cycling several years ago, tubular wheels were actually less expensive. It doesn't hurt that I like the ride better, or that I used them back in college. Back then (early 70s), that's what decent bikes came with.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[palincss]

Ditto. When I got into vintage cycling several years ago, tubular wheels were actually less expensive. It doesn't hurt that I like the ride better, or that I used them back in college. Back then (early 70s), that's what decent bikes came with.


That's what some decent bikes came with. You could get Paramounts with either tubulars or clinchers, and most Jack Taylor models were made for clinchers.

[marciero]

Tubulars on a 700c bike that gets ridden 20% of the time and only in-season, but I've only had a single flat in going on three years, and that one happened after I got home and was able to seal it with sealant.
But that's not why I ride them. To me they just raise the ride and handling to that extra level of smoothness. With them the bike is like a Mercedes 450 SL-not a race bike, but more of a sports touring machine for civilized jaunts up the coast. With tubed clinchers-and these are Compass 28-the ride is more pedestrian. I may revisit and experiment with pressures and do more of a controlled experiment. I think maybe the tubulars mitigates the stiffer ride of the oversize tubing on this steel bike.

The majority of my riding is done on 650b 42 and 48 clinchers. The difference tubed and tubeless of these (at least the 48 so far) is roughly akin to what I am experiencing with clincher vs tubular on the the 700c bike. So maybe I should try road tubeless?

[Vamoots58]

I ride Campy and tubulars.

I don't see gluing tires as a hassle nor is it a hassle to change one on the ride if necessary.

To each his own.

+1 - Tubulars only and Campy Only here!! Also completely agree with not finding mounting a hassle!!

[oldpotatoe]

And are a lot harder to fix when they do puncture. So there are four ways in which they are "superior in every way", and five ways in which they are not. I'd say the NAYs have it...

Then don't use them..I see no compelling reason to own any clinchers..all I own are tubulars..

"wear more quickly"..ahh. no..a lot of 'open' clincher casings re the same as the tubular..so 4 to 4..a draw!!:)

[oldpotatoe]

For all of you cranky tubular riding campy users, how many miles a year are you putting on your tubulars? Training 5k, 8k, 10k miles a year?

Clinchers have gotten really good. I wont ride garbage tires, but with putting a fair amount of miles out on the road I just cant see the hassle of tubulars being worth it for me. Yes, they are hassle compared to dropping by the shop on my ride home, buying 2 new vittoria corsas and putting them on the bike in 15 minutes.

About 3500 or miles a year..more involved with tubulars but not a black art or real hassle. Yup, not worth it for you, yes, 'worth it' for me...must be winter.

[jamesdak]

So as an aside. I've wound up with two sets of older tubular wheels that I want to use. My normal setup on my bikes is usually the Conti 4000s II in 700 x 25 with latex tubes. I can this type setup on my many bikes for 5000-8000 miles a year and normally see maybe one flat.

I'm thinking on running the Veloflex Arenberg or maybe even the Vlaanderen. Can any user of the Vlaanderen speak to how they truly measure, are they to size? The 700 x 25 Conti's measure in the 27/28 mm range so I figure if the Vlaanderen are true to size they should fit on most any bike I chose to use them on. Am I making a good choice?

[.RJ]

If one considers cycling to be at least in significant part an extensive collection of learned skills, one learns more about tire pressures and use of different tires and with a little discernment comes to realize that tubulars are more amenable to optimization in skilled hands than are clinchers.

Cycling is different things to different people.

Sure, there was a time when Campy and tubulars were the 'best' and you had to know how glue tires and rebuild a shifter if you wanted to ride a lot.

Equipment is really good now and its just not necessary any longer, IMO. Its easy to buy a bike with clinchers and shimano 105 and it'll go many thousands of miles with no hassle with nothing more than fresh cables and chain every other year. If you enjoy that stuff, great, but dont thumb your noses at the people that dont, certainly not if we want new people to start riding.

As an aside, I think most of us would fail the pepsi challenge when it came to identifying a nice set of clinchers vs. tubulars.

[yakstone]

Then don't use them..I see no compelling reason to own any clinchers..all I own are tubulars..

"wear more quickly"..ahh. no..a lot of 'open' clincher casings re the same as the tubular..so 4 to 4..a draw!!:)

I'm with Peter on this one, all my rode wheelsets are tubular and Campy.

However, on my MTB I do run tubeless on two bikes and standard clinchers on one.

[rwsaunders]

I'm thinking on running the Veloflex Arenberg or maybe even the Vlaanderen. Can any user of the Vlaanderen speak to how they truly measure, are they to size? The 700 x 25 Conti's measure in the 27/28 mm range so I figure if the Vlaanderen are true to size they should fit on most any bike I chose to use them on. Am I making a good choice?

I have ridden about 4,500 miles on Vlaanderens over the past few years and I love them. Not the longest wearing tire but it's comfortable and reliable just like other Veloflex tubulars. They measure just a hair under 27mm at 80psi on Nemesis rims. I have quite a few more miles on Arenberg/Roubaixs which are exceptional tires (measure a hair under 25mm), but I like the ride of the fat boys better. Isn't that what Vlaanderen means?

https://windinmyface.com/gear-tires-VeloflexVlaanderen.html

[jamesdak]

I have ridden about 4,500 miles on Vlaanderens over the past few years and I love them. Not the longest wearing tire but it's comfortable and reliable just like other Veloflex tubulars. They measure just a hair under 27mm at 80psi on Nemesis rims. I have quite a few more miles on Arenberg/Roubaixs which are exceptional tires (measure a hair under 25mm), but I like the ride of the fat boys better. Isn't that what Vlaanderen means?

https://windinmyface.com/gear-tires-VeloflexVlaanderen.html

Thanks for the insight on the size. I just ordered a set. I'll test fit them on both wheels before gluing to see how they clear on the various bikes.

[VC Slim]

Tubulars are great. Its the people that are the problem.

Agreed. While I was changing a tubular flat on a recent group ride the general sentiment of my clincher buddies was why don't I switch.

[Big Dan]

Yeah, I bought into the dream of tubulars years ago.
Cost me a bunch of money and nothing else.
They are all gone now.

[VC Slim]

Tubulars haven't been popular for more than 30 years.

Doesn't make them bad, just not the popular choice for most riders.

And most riders are not competitive which is where tubulars were/are used in higher numbers. The pros will thankfully always use tubular and thus be available to enthusiasts.

[VC Slim]

Thousands of miles. Also, my anecdotal experience is that I do flat less often with my tubulars. I have no evidence to back this up nor do I have any agenda of trying to convert people. I’ve just been using them since I got my first road racing bike in 1984. I ride clinchers more nowadays because they’re so close in ride quality that even after 35 years on tubulars I can barely tell the difference. I can tell the difference, but it’s so small as to not matter to me.

When my stash of tubular tires is gone I may be done with them. That’s still a few years away though.

My reply to the why don't I switch question is that my inventory won't let me, lol. My current price point for top end tubulars is around $30. Plus I don't use sealant which allows me to patch flats.

[.RJ]

The pros will thankfully always use tubular and thus be available to enthusiasts.

They've largely abandoned it for mountain bikes. Road & CX will be next.

All of the old school euro trends will fade away eventually.

[StephenCL]

Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

2) I heard that tubulars are sooo much more expensive than tubulars ...false, the gap has been dramatically closing. The newest wide and soft clinchers from all the major brands, are drastically increasing in price, add in a latex tube or two that you will go through and the differential is minimal...maybe $10-$15 per wheel.

3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

Let me point out a couple other misconceptions and points to consider.

1) Modern tubulars really don't need to be stretched. Continental are likely the exception here. Vittorias, Veloflex, FMB all three can slide right on these days.
2) Its true that if you flat a tubular, it is a major ordeal. However, Orange Seal or Stans has all but solved the mundane thorn punctures and there are services for re-tubing tubular tires these days. The upside is that compared to my buddies that ride clinchers, I rarely flat (knock on wood).


My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers. Yes, there is the occassional rolled tubular tire on the hot summers day, but by in large those began as punctures and would have had the same result on clinchers..on the other hand, I have had more than one flat while flying at speeds over 40MPH, where the only thing that saved my bacon was that my tires were glued on....

Just my .02

Stephen

[Kirk007]

They've largely abandoned it for mountain bikes. Road & CX will be next.

All of the old school euro trends will fade away eventually.

If this becomes true it will be due to tubeless not traditional clinchers.

[ultraman6970]

As stephen said... you can get cheap ass tubbies but those eventhought arent super duper can get your costs down big time... 3x50... for 100 bucks you can get 6 of those, you get puncture just toss it... a good pair of clinchers are over 100 bucks... and thats just one. Will last longer? yeah but at the same time at some point you might need to swap it aswell....

The guys with money dont like the 3x50 tubbies and i do respect that but at the same price range a 15 bucks clincher is something just out of a comic book you know, you cant compare them.

Glue? well months ago I bought 4 cans of glue like for 25 bucks shipped. Have glue in the shelf enough maybe for 10 years at this point.

Everything needs to go down to costs of keeping you rolling you know.



My reply to the why don't I switch question is that my inventory won't let me, lol. My current price point for top end tubulars is around $30. Plus I don't use sealant which allows me to patch flats.

[Seramount]

have never ridden tubulars or owned anything Campy...

neither has ever seemed essential to enjoying time on a bike.

[VC Slim]

They've largely abandoned it for mountain bikes. Road & CX will be next.

All of the old school euro trends will fade away eventually.

Interesting. Never heard of tubulars for MTB's. And I don't think that it was because it was before my time.

I most likely will have faded away long before the tubular trend. :)

[Mark McM]

While some will claim they don't care about weight of their bike, while straddling their 8-900 gram carbon frame, with top end gruppo, carbon post, stem and handlebars, and their carbon clinchers firmly attached in the dropouts, I do wonder if they are aware of the 2-300 grams of additional weight they're dragging around as a result of their convenient wheel choice?

For Example: Campy Bora 35 Ones: 1360 vs 1170 (a little more discrepancy on the Bora 35 discs.

Just sayin ....

As Kontact pointed out, total bicycle weight includes the spare tubes/tires that are carried. In many cases, the weight of clincher wheels and tires plus a spare tube is less than the weight of tubular wheels and tires plus a complete spare tire. The Campagnolo wheels you bring up have an unusually large weight differential between tubular and clincher models, but the tubular wheels + spare tire still comes out only a few grams ahead. For Zipp tubulars/clinchers, the clinchers come out ahead.

But even for the Campagnolo wheels, the tubulars are still slower - the extra drag of tubular tires more overwhelms any weight difference (even if you don't include the spare tire).

[Imaking20]

Edit:^Regarding weight; probably not. I have never carried a spare tubular tire with me and there's been only one time where I needed to call for assitance (which also happens when people don't pack enough spare tubes or co2 for their clinchers). With how crazy people are getting about tubeless tires - I'm shocked that more folks haven't realized you can basically treat a tubular tire the same way and preload with sealant if you like. Or wait until the flat, spend ~90 seconds loading sealant, and not worry about another flat for 6 months until the sealant dries up.

Edit #2: you're also wrong about the rolling resistance. Most magazines are focused on testing crr of clincher tires but that does not mean tubulars are slower. It just means there is less data... and the data that IS available shows that both tires are capable of rolling very, very fast. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/


Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

2) I heard that tubulars are sooo much more expensive than tubulars ...false, the gap has been dramatically closing. The newest wide and soft clinchers from all the major brands, are drastically increasing in price, add in a latex tube or two that you will go through and the differential is minimal...maybe $10-$15 per wheel.

3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

Let me point out a couple other misconceptions and points to consider.

1) Modern tubulars really don't need to be stretched. Continental are likely the exception here. Vittorias, Veloflex, FMB all three can slide right on these days.
2) Its true that if you flat a tubular, it is a major ordeal. However, Orange Seal or Stans has all but solved the mundane thorn punctures and there are services for re-tubing tubular tires these days. The upside is that compared to my buddies that ride clinchers, I rarely flat (knock on wood).


My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers. Yes, there is the occassional rolled tubular tire on the hot summers day, but by in large those began as punctures and would have had the same result on clinchers..on the other hand, I have had more than one flat while flying at speeds over 40MPH, where the only thing that saved my bacon was that my tires were glued on....

Just my .02

Stephen

^all of this

These technical arguments people make against tubulars seem to my like people being unwilling to put in a little research (which will debunk a lot). Change is hard for people and it's easy to talk yourself out of tubulars when there's a perception that gluing tires is super complicated (or that tape is woefully insufficient). I've gone back and forth between tubulars and clinchers - and between gluing and taping. There is zero temptation for me to own clinchers at this point. I'll take the improved ride quality, handling, and carry sealant. Even my wife rides tubulars exclusively and she's drawn to road debris like a magnet. I preload her tires with Orange Seal and I've since spent considerably less time fixing flats than when we were riding clinchers.

[Kontact]

Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

2) I heard that tubulars are sooo much more expensive than tubulars ...false, the gap has been dramatically closing. The newest wide and soft clinchers from all the major brands, are drastically increasing in price, add in a latex tube or two that you will go through and the differential is minimal...maybe $10-$15 per wheel.

3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

Let me point out a couple other misconceptions and points to consider.

1) Modern tubulars really don't need to be stretched. Continental are likely the exception here. Vittorias, Veloflex, FMB all three can slide right on these days.
2) Its true that if you flat a tubular, it is a major ordeal. However, Orange Seal or Stans has all but solved the mundane thorn punctures and there are services for re-tubing tubular tires these days. The upside is that compared to my buddies that ride clinchers, I rarely flat (knock on wood).


My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers. Yes, there is the occassional rolled tubular tire on the hot summers day, but by in large those began as punctures and would have had the same result on clinchers..on the other hand, I have had more than one flat while flying at speeds over 40MPH, where the only thing that saved my bacon was that my tires were glued on....

Just my .02

Stephen

If you're going to rail against "misconceptions", why point to a weight penalty that doesn't exist?

Why point to puncture sealant as an advantage of tubulars? Tubulars have tubes inside them, just like clinchers, and the sealant doesn't care what kind of tire it is.



I don't know why anyone would really care about the stretching thing that much. Properly gluing a tubular takes 2 days, what's another day of stretching on top of that?




The flatting during descent thing is interesting, but I've never heard of a clincher rider crashing because of a high speed flat while I know people who have definitely rolled tubulars. Is this objection overstated?

[Mark McM]

Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

I've had a few flat changing "races" with my tubular riding friends, and while it may largely come down to skill, it is true that they often change their tubulars faster than I change my clinchers - but the time difference comes down to a fraction of a minute. But the tubular time difference only comes out ahead for the first flat tire ... it sometimes happens that riders get more than one flat tire on a ride, and I don't know anyone that carries more than one spare tire, whereas it is very easy to carry multiple spare tubes.


3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

This is an ironic statement - particularly when you claim some type of scientific evidence. In reality, your claim is all about perception (or misperception), as there is very little evidence to suggest one type tire corners better than the other. The very few traction tests I have seen have shown no particular bias towards one type of tire or another. The dominant variables appear to be tire width and tread material (but even here, no causation can be firmly established). As far as the weight issue, it has been well established that wheel weight is such a small portion of total weight that other factors (such as rolling resistance and even aero drag) play larger rolls in acceleration.

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

I'll bet you that the vast majority of pros do ride clinchers - on their training wheels. And for the same reasons that most other riders use clinchers. Tubulars only become an advantage if you have a support vehicle following you around with spare wheels in case of flat tires, and also that you have to keep riding on a flat tire while waiting for the support vehicle to catch up to you. Since that is not the case for most riders, tubulars are not an advantage.


My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers.

I too have seen crashes caused by flatted clincher tires. And I have seen a few crashes caused by rolled tubulars. While I've seen more of the former than the latter, I can't say that it is a greater ratio than the population of people who ride clinchers vs. tubulars.

(Anecdotally, there are actually some pro riders who switched from tubulars to clinchers for descents, due to the danger of brake heat melting glue. The most famous was Miguel Indurain, but there have been others, as well.)

[KarlC]

As Kontact pointed out, total bicycle weight includes the spare tubes/tires that are carried. In many cases, the weight of clincher wheels and tires plus a spare tube is less than the weight of tubular wheels and tires plus a complete spare tire. The Campagnolo wheels you bring up have an unusually large weight differential between tubular and clincher models, but the tubular wheels + spare tire still comes out only a few grams ahead. For Zipp tubulars/clinchers, the clinchers come out ahead.

But even for the Campagnolo wheels, the tubulars are still slower - the extra drag of tubular tires more overwhelms any weight difference (even if you don't include the spare tire).

Do people even carry extra tubular tires on a ride these days with sealant being so poplar and ez to use ?

The extra drag of tubular tires .... what extra drag ????

[StephenCL]

As Kontact pointed out, total bicycle weight includes the spare tubes/tires that are carried. In many cases, the weight of clincher wheels and tires plus a spare tube is less than the weight of tubular wheels and tires plus a complete spare tire. The Campagnolo wheels you bring up have an unusually large weight differential between tubular and clincher models, but the tubular wheels + spare tire still comes out only a few grams ahead. For Zipp tubulars/clinchers, the clinchers come out ahead.

But even for the Campagnolo wheels, the tubulars are still slower - the extra drag of tubular tires more overwhelms any weight difference (even if you don't include the spare tire).


1) there is a significant difference between rolling weight and static weight. Sticking a spare 240gram tubular in your jersey or under your saddle has little impact on your overall perfomance...adding 200 grams of rotating weight at the rim....yup, a lot more impact to the rider...hence why tubulars spin up so much faster.

2) don't forget what we are talking about in terms of speed all of these so called "studies" are built around trying to prove that clinchers are as fast as tubulars...I see the benefit for time trials, but not in the real world of road racing. The constant ebb and flows of road racing demand better acceleration and better cornering. So triathaletes and tt specialists can run clinchers all day long...:)...

[Imaking20]

If you're going to rail against "misconceptions", why point to a weight penalty that doesn't exist?

Why point to puncture sealant as an advantage of tubulars? Tubulars have tubes inside them, just like clinchers, and the sealant doesn't care what kind of tire it is.



I don't know why anyone would really care about the stretching thing that much. Properly gluing a tubular takes 2 days, what's another day of stretching on top of that?




The flatting during descent thing is interesting, but I've never heard of a clincher rider crashing because of a high speed flat while I know people who have definitely rolled tubulars. Is this objection overstated?

Gluing tires takes me an hour. I let them sit overnight.

I have 192 gram tubular tires. Can you show me a clincher and tube that's comparable in weight?

Do you REALLY know anyone who has rolled a tubular? Have you seen it? Because I've ended up off the road flattish a clincher on carbon wheels.

As for the effectiveness of sealant in a clincher, I don't know if that's accurate. I'm also not willing to test it because my experience flattish clinchers is that they go flat almost instantly - whereas every tubular flat has been a slow leak down.

[StephenCL]

This is an ironic statement - particularly when you claim some type of scientific evidence. In reality, your claim is all about perception (or misperception), as there is very little evidence to suggest one type tire corners better than the other. The very few traction tests I have seen have shown no particular bias towards one type of tire or another. The dominant variables appear to be tire width and tread material (but even here, no causation can be firmly established). As far as the weight issue, it has been well established that wheel weight is such a small portion of total weight that other factors (such as rolling resistance and even aero drag) play larger rolls in acceleration.




There is absolutely scientific evidence that clinchers will never corner as well as tubulars. The side extrusions of a clincher rim change the possible deformity of the tire during cornering. This has been well documented in the past.

Also, I have over 30 years experience riding and racing on both clinchers and tubulars, as well as a team of 25 riders, of which half race with tubulars...

I realize this is a discussion regarding every day use...but if clinchers rode as well as tubulars the entire peloton would be riding them...

[.RJ]

There is absolutely scientific evidence that clinchers will never corner as well as tubulars.

Care to share the evidence?

99% of riders will run out of self preservation, if not skill/confidence, before running out of grip on most clinchers.

I realize this is a discussion regarding every day use...but if clinchers rode as well as tubulars the entire peloton would be riding them...

Euro trends die hard. No one wanted to ride carbon wheels with wider tires until the Zipp engineers did the tests and showed them the data - the wheels got destroyed the first year because the mechanics didnt trust the engineers. Plus, its a fantasy world of marginal gains. And for the rest of us.... ?

All y'all tubular proponents get awful upset and go to great lengths to mansplain how awesome they are when someone doesnt agree they arent god's gift to cycling :D But what do I know, I ride aluminum bikes and use SRAM shifters.

[KarlC]

No one I ride with regularly beside myself uses tubulars, for what ever the reasons and what ever tires they try, they all flat regularly. When they flat its not a race to fix the flat, so it takes long enuf to become a chat fest. If I get a puncture its most often just sealed and I may never know, unless I do a close inspection of my tire.

PS - I love all the misconceptions with Tubular wheels, it makes it very ez to buy REALLY nice wheels for REALLY good deals.

[Mark McM]

The extra drag of tubular tires .... what extra drag ????

Sigh ...

Just about every rolling resistance test in the last few decades have shown that for otherwise similar tires, clinchers have less rolling resistance than tubulars (and also that the difference in drag due to rolling resistance is greater than the difference in drag due to weight).

Here's one such test, there are many others:

https://www.vittoria.com/news/clincher-tubular-or-tubeless/

Many top pro racers have switched to clinchers for time trials due to the lower drag vs. tubulars.

[Kontact]

The extra drag of tubular tires .... what extra drag ????
Glue flex increases rolling resistance.


I have 192 gram tubular tires. Can you show me a clincher and tube that's comparable in weight?


Veloflex Record clincher is 145g + a 50g Vredestein latex tube is 195 grams. A 192 gram tubular + glue is a little over 205 grams.

Do you REALLY know anyone who has rolled a tubular? Have you seen it? Because I've ended up off the road flattish a clincher on carbon wheels.
Yes, I do.

As for the effectiveness of sealant in a clincher, I don't know if that's accurate. I'm also not willing to test it because my experience flattish clinchers is that they go flat almost instantly - whereas every tubular flat has been a slow leak down.

There is no mechanism that makes a clincher go flat faster than a tubular. They both have internal tubes, sidewalls and tread. And the tubeless guys certainly seem to think that they don't have a flat problem, either.




I like clinchers because I am lazy, and if my clinchers flatted all the time my laziness would motivate me to find a system that requires less of my time either mounting tires or fixing flats.


Another time factor no one is talking about is that when you change a tube after a flat, you are done. The tiny bit of extra time that takes is all the time you're going to be taking. Flatting a tubular allows you to swap it faster to get back to the ride, but you aren't going to keep riding it like that. When you get home you're going to peel that spare off, probably try to roll it back up and start the gluing process from scratch. And, if you're the type, you're going to open up the flatted tire and repair that, too. That's a lot of time dedicated to a hole in the inner tube of the tubular.

[StephenCL]

Euro trends die hard. No one wanted to ride carbon wheels with wid
All y'all tubular proponents get awful upset and go to great lengths to mansplain how awesome they are when someone doesnt agree they arent god's gift to cycling :D But what do I know, I ride aluminum bikes and use SRAM shifters.

I really don't care if people ride tubulars or not. It is a personal choice. My initial comments were focused on common misperceptions. I still stand by all of them.

Riding tubulars for the pros has nothing to do with Euro trends. It has to do with giving the rider the best chance to win. Think of these three things:

1) could you really ever run clinchers at 55psi during a rain soaked Paris Roubaix or better yet Flanders?
2) would you ever make it to the finish line if you punctured 700m from the finish line? Think of the great races that have been won when the rider crossed the line on his flattened tubular
3) do you really believe that Any pro team would endure the additional cost and maintenance involved with outfitting an entire team of tubulars if it wasn't a competitive advantage?

I'm not suggesting that clinchers haven't gotten a lot better, heck I even bought a pair last year. But the fact is that if they performed better, were safer or provided a competitive advantage, the pro team's would have all switched by now.

Oh, I bet you don't shave your legs either!!! :)

[Mark McM]

1) there is a significant difference between rolling weight and static weight. Sticking a spare 240gram tubular in your jersey or under your saddle has little impact on your overall perfomance...adding 200 grams of rotating weight at the rim....yup, a lot more impact to the rider...hence why tubulars spin up so much faster.

To apply the label "significant" you'll have to quantify the effects. I suspect that you can't, because if you could, you wouldn't call it "significant". Those who have actually done the tests to quantify it, know that in fact an extra 200 grams of rotating mass (vs. the same mass non-rotating) makes a barely measureable difference. In fact, it is so small, that it is dwarfed by other affects, including small differences in rolling resistance and aero drag.

2) don't forget what we are talking about in terms of speed all of these so called "studies" are built around trying to prove that clinchers are as fast as tubulars...I see the benefit for time trials, but not in the real world of road racing. The constant ebb and flows of road racing demand better acceleration and better cornering. So triathaletes and tt specialists can run clinchers all day long...:)...

There have already been multiple studies published that heavier, deeper aerowheels accelerate faster than lighter, shallower wheels (Here's one such study, but there are plenty more: http://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/1467/aero-rims-vs-lightweight-rims). There have been some rolling resistance tests that showed the difference in drag between tubulars and clinchers to be enough to make the (heavier) clinchers accelerate faster as well.

It used to be believed that aero wheels were only of benefit during TTs, and would be a disadvantage during road races. Now we know that aero wheels are still an advantage in road races, and racers have nearly exclusively switched to aero wheels. Likewise, there no net savings for tubulars vs. clinchers during road races, either.

[Ruimteaapje]

I use tubulars daily (and Campagnolo for that matter) for commuting and other rides. Far less punctures than I had with clinchers and if I do have a flat tire this is always solved with Pittstop. Love the ride quality.

[.RJ]

Riding tubulars for the pros has nothing to do with Euro trends. It has to do with giving the rider the best chance to win. Think of these three things:

I didnt know we are all pro riders here :D I'll let you know when I flat my clincher on the cobbles right before I win the profamateur cobbled world championships :bike:


Oh, I bet you don't shave your legs either!!! :)

Right now they're a hairy mess, but, generally, yes. I do buy into some of the euro pro cycling machine :D I guess I could spend my time gluing tires, instead though...

[Kontact]

1) could you really ever run clinchers at 55psi during a rain soaked Paris Roubaix or better yet Flanders?
2) would you ever make it to the finish line if you punctured 700m from the finish line? Think of the great races that have been won when the rider crossed the line on his flattened tubular
3) do you really believe that Any pro team would endure the additional cost and maintenance involved with outfitting an entire team of tubulars if it wasn't a competitive advantage?


1. Yes, they just wouldn't be 23c tires.

2. Maybe, but I don't ride anywhere with finish lines that wouldn't give me time to change a flat.

3. No one on this board is a pro. Very little riding that anyone, including the pros, do is for prize money. If there was prize money involved I might ride tubulars that day, but for training I would ride on clinchers, like the pros do.


Other things I don't do:
Radio the support car.
Pee while riding.
Throw away my water bottles before a climb.
Have the roads blockaded so I don't have to worry about cars.
Get paid to ride.

Maybe what is done in pro races only has so much application to real life?

[.RJ]

Now we know that aero wheels are still an advantage in road races, and racers have nearly exclusively switched to aero wheels.

And we also know that a solid set of aluminum wheels is only giving up a handful of watts to a zipp 404, too.

[.RJ]

Maybe what is done in pro races only has so much application to real life?

Because tuesday night world championships is SERIOUS BUSINESS :banana:

[El Chaba]

StephenCL, don't waste your time. Tests are fine. However, any test whose results show that ANY clincher has a lower CRR than a properly glued Veloflex Criterium is a flawed test.

[Mark McM]

I really don't care if people ride tubulars or not. It is a personal choice. My initial comments were focused on common misperceptions. I still stand by all of them.

And yet, data shows that many of your ideas are themselves misperceptions.

Riding tubulars for the pros has nothing to do with Euro trends. It has to do with giving the rider the best chance to win. Think of these three things:

1) could you really ever run clinchers at 55psi during a rain soaked Paris Roubaix or better yet Flanders?
2) would you ever make it to the finish line if you punctured 700m from the finish line? Think of the great races that have been won when the rider crossed the line on his flattened tubular
3) do you really believe that Any pro team would endure the additional cost and maintenance involved with outfitting an entire team of tubulars if it wasn't a competitive advantage?

There is no doubt that tubulars and clinchers have different performance characteristics, and the ones listed above make them a competitive advantage in certain specific situations. But most of us don't have support vehicles at the ready to give us a spare wheel in the middle of a 200-300 km ride, nor do we have to be able to keep riding with a flat tire while waiting for the support vehicle to show up. When these things are important, the slight performance disadvantages (and somewhat larger maintenance hassles) don't matter. But even in some situations, such as TTs, the performance disadvantages of tubulars actually do matter, and the pros switch to clinchers.

Since most of us don't ride with full vehicle support, and don't have professional mechanics continuously maintaining our equipment, we never experience the specific conditions where tubulars might be an advantage. But, although most choose clinchers for reasons of convenience, we can still harvest the performance advantage that clinchers offer.

[KarlC]

Sigh ...

Just about every rolling resistance test in the last few decades have shown that for otherwise similar tires, clinchers have less rolling resistance than tubulars (and also that the difference in drag due to rolling resistance is greater than the difference in drag due to weight).

Here's one such test, there are many others:

https://www.vittoria.com/news/clincher-tubular-or-tubeless/

Many top pro racers have switched to clinchers for time trials due to the lower drag vs. tubulars.

I wish more testing was done with Tubular tires but its really rare, and we all know the top dogs for Crr are constantly changing.

I ride Zipp SL Speed 27 tubs, they where 1 of the top dogs in real 3rd party tests until recently, and still are in the top 4 based on the below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vTm2AQYKeDuabP8Qiv5_AjatJVNYSY_DRBOeFmO3-_8/edit#gid=2047093726

Im also willing to give up 3 or 4 watts to enjoy the ride of my 27mm Tubs over the ride of the 23mm vittoria clinchers

.

[Imaking20]

...there are actually some pro riders who switched from tubulars to clinchers for descents, due to the danger of brake heat melting glue. The most famous was Miguel Indurain, but there have been others, as well.)

You are either intoxicated or you're leaving out a VERY critical piece of information (that being the material of the rim). I can't fathom someone would switch from a carbon tubular to a carbon clincher for BENEFITS of braking. The entire wheel (maybe bike) industry disagrees with that anecdote.

Sigh ...

Just about every rolling resistance test in the last few decades have shown that for otherwise similar tires, clinchers have less rolling resistance than tubulars (and also that the difference in drag due to rolling resistance is greater than the difference in drag due to weight).

Here's one such test, there are many others:

https://www.vittoria.com/news/clincher-tubular-or-tubeless/

Many top pro racers have switched to clinchers for time trials due to the lower drag vs. tubulars.

That's ONE test. And all of those tires roll faster than any tire you've likely got in your garage... like, you're talking about the pointy end of tire performance. The advantages of which are totally cancelled out by fat guy jerseys.

And yet, data shows that many of your ideas are themselves misperceptions.


Now that you're hounding on data, how about you provide 2 more examples of tests that included tubulars and showed clinchers to be faster? I'll wait.

[Imaking20]

Glue flex increases rolling resistance.

el oh el

Veloflex Record clincher is 145g + a 50g Vredestein latex tube is 195 grams. A 192 gram tubular + glue is a little over 205 grams.

How about a tire that's actually in production?


Yes, I do.

You skipped the part where I asked if you've seen it. Because people say lots of things... like how durable Conti 4000s tires are... but the last two people I rode with who were on them borrowed my c02 to fix their flats...


Another time factor no one is talking about is that when you change a tube after a flat, you are done. The tiny bit of extra time that takes is all the time you're going to be taking. Flatting a tubular allows you to swap it faster to get back to the ride, but you aren't going to keep riding it like that. When you get home you're going to peel that spare off, probably try to roll it back up and start the gluing process from scratch. And, if you're the type, you're going to open up the flatted tire and repair that, too. That's a lot of time dedicated to a hole in the inner tube of the tubular.

This is an easier argument for you to make as long as you keep ignoring that the tubular users here are saying they carry sealant - not a spare tire. Also, who takes the glue off to start from scratch every time?:confused:

[Kirk007]

such a typical winter debate (and one started by a clincher proponent by the way with the ad hominen characterization of tubular users btw.....

Dang ride what you want with the pros and cons of each. I don't give a crap about resistance of clinchers vs. tubulars - I'm not racing. I don't find tubulars an inconvenience. Two ounces of sealant is as light as a spare tube.
And I have plenty of winter evenings to tape/glue whatever if need be. I think good tubeless road tires ride almost as nice so I've got some of those and they may be what I ride the most in coming years, who knows.

I think clinchers give up some ride quality but are good if you're lazy and don't want to spend much time on wheels that is unless your clincher tires and clincher wheels are an unfriendly combo and you have to spend 20 minutes wrestling and swearing to get the tire mounted (actually I just throw on another set of wheels - my one clincher wheelset, that's not tubeless, is hanging with a flat to be fixed - been a month now as the others wheels are doing fine). So maybe clinchers aren't so convenient after all as I've yet to flat a tubeless tire in 2 years (or a tubular one that didn't fix with sealant).

[VC Slim]

Do people even carry extra tubular tires on a ride these days with sealant being so poplar and ez to use ?

The extra drag of tubular tires .... what extra drag ????

I always carry two spare tubulars in an underseat Jandd bag. My friend was sure glad I had a spare spare when all the contents of his fix-a-flat shot out of the huge hole in his flat tubular like a white geyser.

[Mark McM]

You are either intoxicated or you're leaving out a VERY critical piece of information (that being the material of the rim). I can't fathom someone would switch from a carbon tubular to a carbon clincher for BENEFITS of braking. The entire wheel (maybe bike) industry disagrees with that anecdote.

Please, no ad hominem attacks, just stick the facts.

We aren't talking about carbon clincher rims (that's being discussed in a different thread), we're talking about tubulars vs. clinchers. I'm surprised you don't know about Miguel Indurain, one of the greatest stage racers of all time. If you did, you know that he was racing before carbon clinchers were developed.



That's ONE test. And all of those tires roll faster than any tire you've likely got in your garage... like, you're talking about the pointy end of tire performance. The advantages of which are totally cancelled out by fat guy jerseys.


Now that you're hounding on data, how about you provide 2 more examples of tests that included tubulars and showed clinchers to be faster? I'll wait.

If you have to ask, it sounds like you have done no research at all to support your point. If you had, you would have found multiple such tests. Here's a few:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html

http://terrymorse.com/bike/rolres.html

[charliedid]

1. Yes, they just wouldn't be 23c tires.

2. Maybe, but I don't ride anywhere with finish lines that wouldn't give me time to change a flat.

3. No one on this board is a pro. Very little riding that anyone, including the pros, do is for prize money. If there was prize money involved I might ride tubulars that day, but for training I would ride on clinchers, like the pros do.


Other things I don't do:
Radio the support car.
Pee while riding.
Throw away my water bottles before a climb.
Have the roads blockaded so I don't have to worry about cars.
Get paid to ride.

Maybe what is done in pro races only has so much application to real life?

(like)

[choke]

I have to say this has been an entertaining thread....

Do you REALLY know anyone who has rolled a tubular? Have you seen it?Well, I don't know Marianne Vos, though I have talked to her. And I don't know if watching it live on the computer counts as 'seen' but I was watching this race when she rolled one.....so yeah, it can happen. Go to 4:25 in the video. http://omroepzeeland.bbvms.com/view/regiogrid/2827796.html

You are either intoxicated or you're leaving out a VERY critical piece of information (that being the material of the rim). I can't fathom someone would switch from a carbon tubular to a carbon clincher for BENEFITS of braking. The entire wheel (maybe bike) industry disagrees with that anecdote.I'm pretty sure that Miguel Indurain wasn't riding carbon clinchers.....

[VC Slim]

Everything needs to go down to costs of keeping you rolling you know.

Here here. That's why I buy low, fix my flats and mount my own tires. Lets me continue to live, as I describe to others, "The Tubular Lifestyle". :banana:

[KarlC]

I always carry two spare tubular in an underseat Jandd bag. My friend was sure glad I had a spare spare when all the contents of his fix-a-flat shot out of the huge hole in his flat tubular like a white geyser.

Yea I guess some guys do carry extra tubulars, that's all fine.

I have only had 1 time in many years that a 1" gash in my tubular stopped my ride. So I dont want to carry something 100% of the time that I will only use 1% of the time.

[StephenCL]

I just want to say a few last things, then I am going to leave it alone. I was never out to offend anyone.

You don't have to be a pro to enjoy tubulars. The entire reason for my first post is that so many folks make it seem like owning tubulars is a big headache or hassle, without any benefits. It is simply NOT true. You could blindfold me 100 times and I promise that at least 9 times out of 10 I could guess tubular or clincher. They just flat out feel better. I don't care if they have more rolling resistance, because they just flat out feel better when you ride them. And if you have ever ridden them for an extended period of time, on really good tires, you know what I am saying is true. Do they require some additional attention? Sure, but how many tubes did you snakebite with your tire levers when you first started changing your own flats?

It just takes time to learn. Hell, 30 years ago I couldn't afford to replace my tires and so I learned to repair my own tubulars. Talk about a lost art.

So don't ride tubulars cause you want to go faster, or you want to be like so and so. Rides them because you like the way the feel, and you don't mind the extra bit of effort required.

All the other bits... it's just noise.

[djg21]

Gluing tires takes me an hour. I let them sit overnight.

I have 192 gram tubular tires. Can you show me a clincher and tube that's comparable in weight?

Do you REALLY know anyone who has rolled a tubular? Have you seen it? Because I've ended up off the road flattish a clincher on carbon wheels.

As for the effectiveness of sealant in a clincher, I don't know if that's accurate. I'm also not willing to test it because my experience flattish clinchers is that they go flat almost instantly - whereas every tubular flat has been a slow leak down.


I rolled a tubular going into a corner in a crit about 20 years ago. It was over 100° and humid in Scotch Plains, NJ, which held an 8-corner Crit that was my favorite. Ironically, it was one of the only races I recall doing in which the marshals actually checked tubular tires before the start. The marshals also looked at my wheel after the crash and agreed that there was a proper amount of glue on it. They thought the glue had just softened from the heat. Thankfully, when I skidded out, there was no one outside of me and I didn’t crash anyone else. I had road rash from my ankle to shoulder and had to wrap my leg in Saran Wrap to wear pants to work for a week or so.

I know how to glue tires and did it for a decade before clinchers got good.

And as an aside, when you flat on the road and change to a pre-glued spare tubular, you have to ride gingerly because the tires aren’t glued properly. You do not want to be cornering hard or braking hard on a spare tubular.

[Clean39T]

I just want to say a few last things, then I am going to leave it alone. I was never out to offend anyone.

You don't have to be a pro to enjoy tubulars. The entire reason for my first post is that so many folks make it seem like owning tubulars is a big headache or hassle, without any benefits. It is simply NOT true. You could blindfold me 100 times and I promise that at least 9 times out of 10 I could guess tubular or clincher. They just flat out feel better. I don't care if they have more rolling resistance, because they just flat out feel better when you ride them. And if you have ever ridden them for an extended period of time, on really good tires, you know what I am saying is true. Do they require some additional attention? Sure, but how many tubes did you snakebite with your tire levers when you first started changing your own flats?

It just takes time to learn. Hell, 30 years ago I couldn't afford to replace my tires and so I learned to repair my own tubulars. Talk about a lost art.

So don't ride tubulars cause you want to go faster, or you want to be like so and so. Rides them because you like the way the feel, and you don't mind the extra bit of effort required.

All the other bits... it's just noise.

You're a good man - with sound reasoning :beer:

[Kontact]

This is an easier argument for you to make as long as you keep ignoring that the tubular users here are saying they carry sealant - not a spare tire. Also, who takes the glue off to start from scratch every time?:confused:

I don't think there is an answer for anything you ask that you won't qualify into a different question altogether.


So you want to talk about flat changing, and then when we talk about flat changing you want to say that tubulars don't get flats because a goo that can also be put in clinchers.

Have it your way - neither clinchers nor tubulars need to change flat tires because they can both use sealant. Done.

[makoti]

If I had someone to glue my wheels & worry about them, I'd never touch a clincher again. But, I don't. And I do not like gluing tires on, anymore. So clinchers it is.

[.RJ]

So don't ride tubulars cause you want to go faster, or you want to be like so and so. Rides them because you like the way the feel, and you don't mind the extra bit of effort required.

All the other bits... it's just noise.

Now this I can drink to.

[VC Slim]

Yea I guess some guys do carry extra tubulars, that's all fine.

I have only had 1 time in many years that a 1" gash in my tubular stopped my ride. So I dont want to carry something 100% of the time that I will only use 1% of the time.

Statistically I'm right there with you KarlC. Historically I'm coming from carrying 1.25lb worth of spares on a 23lb Columbus steel bike. Now I'm carrying it on a 16lb carbon bike so have that going for me. Plus I usually only carry one water bottle half the year. ;)

[pjmsj21]

Another Campy and tubular rider on my main bike with Campy and clinchers on my second bike. I have also ridden tubeless and like them as well, but still
prefer tubulars.

I only have clinchers on my bike that is ridden in more of an urban (bad roads) environment. To be honest I find changing a clincher to be pain and would rather deal with a tubular flat than a clincher.....my wife is also a convert.

[Mzilliox]

This thread is funny. We do this sport because we love it right?

So who cares? ride whatever. you are convinced your clinchers ride as good as my tubulars, cool, keep it up. My clinchers dont ride as well as my tubulars, of this I am convinced. I dont need wind tunnels, and dont care about gravy and special sauce, I only care about the ride. And so far I haven't flatted them, so i haven't had the negatives, maybe I'll change my mind then, but thats life, ill deal with it then.

I have only recently started to prefer to ride tubulars. I ride a lot of wheels a lot, both clinchers and tubulars, and even on the gravel i find myself reaching for the tubulars. I think they feel better. i dont care what the tests say, i always thought the continental tires felt like crap, doesn't really matter if you provide me all the data in the world that say they do things in wind tunnels, they still feel like crap to ME. and since im riding the bike thats all that matters.

as for weight, sure, maybe the tire and tube vs the tires are the same, but some light weight tubular rim brake wheels are stupid lighter than clinchers and spin up way faster. Im not sure any wheels i have touched spin up faster than Mavic R-SYS slr tubulars. Not even Bora 35 tubulars or hyperons spin up as fast. these things hummmmmm, and thats why im riding tubulars more these days.

i think each have pluses and minuses, to think thats why both still exist.

[hollowgram5]

This thread is funny. We do this sport because we love it right?

So who cares? ride whatever. you are convinced your clinchers ride as good as my tubulars, cool, keep it up. My clinchers dont ride as well as my tubulars, of this I am convinced. I dont need wind tunnels, and dont care about gravy and special sauce, I only care about the ride. And so far I haven't flatted them, so i haven't had the negatives, maybe I'll change my mind then, but thats life, ill deal with it then.

I have only recently started to prefer to ride tubulars. I ride a lot of wheels a lot, both clinchers and tubulars, and even on the gravel i find myself reaching for the tubulars. I think they feel better. i dont care what the tests say, i always thought the continental tires felt like crap, doesn't really matter if you provide me all the data in the world that say they do things in wind tunnels, they still feel like crap to ME. and since im riding the bike thats all that matters.

as for weight, sure, maybe the tire and tube vs the tires are the same, but some light weight tubular rim brake wheels are stupid lighter than clinchers and spin up way faster. Im not sure any wheels i have touched spin up faster than Mavic R-SYS slr tubulars. Not even Bora 35 tubulars or hyperons spin up as fast. these things hummmmmm, and thats why im riding tubulars more these days.

i think each have pluses and minuses, to think thats why both still exist.MZ, I feel like you hit the nail on the head. It's no different than the carbon vs aluminum vs steel vs ti or any combination thereof.

Frame pumps. Disc brakes. Carbon or aluminum cockpits. Ti posts and stems.

Ride what makes you happy. Ride what you find aesthetically pleasing. Ride what you enjoy. For some, ride what you can afford. But most of all, just ride your bike(s).

[ChristianWong]

This thread makes me really want to try tubulars and really not want to try tubulars at the same time.

[oldpotatoe]

This thread is funny. We do this sport because we love it right?

So who cares? ride whatever. you are convinced your clinchers ride as good as my tubulars, cool, keep it up. My clinchers dont ride as well as my tubulars, of this I am convinced. I dont need wind tunnels, and dont care about gravy and special sauce, I only care about the ride. And so far I haven't flatted them, so i haven't had the negatives, maybe I'll change my mind then, but thats life, ill deal with it then.

I have only recently started to prefer to ride tubulars. I ride a lot of wheels a lot, both clinchers and tubulars, and even on the gravel i find myself reaching for the tubulars. I think they feel better. i dont care what the tests say, i always thought the continental tires felt like crap, doesn't really matter if you provide me all the data in the world that say they do things in wind tunnels, they still feel like crap to ME. and since im riding the bike thats all that matters.

as for weight, sure, maybe the tire and tube vs the tires are the same, but some light weight tubular rim brake wheels are stupid lighter than clinchers and spin up way faster. Im not sure any wheels i have touched spin up faster than Mavic R-SYS slr tubulars. Not even Bora 35 tubulars or hyperons spin up as fast. these things hummmmmm, and thats why im riding tubulars more these days.

i think each have pluses and minuses, to think thats why both still exist.

Reality, what a concept..:)

[zap]

This thread makes me really want to try tubulars and really not want to try tubulars at the same time.

Give tubulars a try.

[etu]

I just got my friend to try tubulars. Went from c24 clinchers with Contis to c35 tubs with Vittoria cx’s. He was amazed at the smooth ride quality with the change. I am going to show him how to glue a tire on using OP’s technique. Too bad more people don’t try them out to see what it is really like.

[oldpotatoe]

I just got my friend to try tubulars. Went from c24 clinchers with Contis to c35 tubs with Vittoria cx’s. He was amazed at the smooth ride quality with the change. I am going to show him how to glue a tire on using OP’s technique. Too bad more people don’t try them out to see what it is really like.

One of my most memorable swaps to Tubulars was a lady that came in with her bike and she was on crutches and really beat up...said descending, had a front flat(clincher) and the tire came off and down she went..really hard.. I rebuilt her hubs to tubular rims(Velocity Escape), showed her and her hubby how to glue them on..PLUS she really liked the ride after she was healed...YMMV and all that but yes, they do have advantages..:)

Yes, yes, poorly glued on tubulars can roll but poorly installed clinchers can blow off the rim too...

[bobvelo]

Hello, tubular, lovers/ and not so much. I know in my sample, of riding life, I had to go to 25mm because of new frame fit, Record brake clearance etc. So mounted up new good old Continental 4000s and they where hard as a rock. Got the Veloflex open clincher, and what a difference, just got some latex tubes, to go into new Veloflexes, So, I am looking to buy this year, used/new tubular wheel set. And give me ALL the work and drama about tubulars, cause this 55 year old rider will handle it. PS. funny little side note; I went to the Philly show this past November. I talked to most of the vendors there, I went to the show with one question; IT was asking about TUBULARs three gentlemen at the show said that tubulars where still the best ride> THE 3 men where all older than myself; I liked that, Best to, you and yours; bob velo

[Mzilliox]

This thread makes me really want to try tubulars and really not want to try tubulars at the same time.

Try it, never been a better time than now when they are so cheap! this thread makes me happy, because im picking up tubular wheels for pennies on the dollar, because of the very fear this blabbering causes, so please, do keep up the debate, and do keep selling off your tubular rim brake wheels (to me) cheap because they suck and are a massive hassle. seriously, tons of work, im pretty tired today from the last time i had to glue tubulars like months ago, its so tiring.

at this rate i may never have to change a tubular tire, ill just pop a new cheap wheelset on and ride away.:eek:

[rwsaunders]

Even if tubbies are not your main ride, like Matt said, pick up a spare set of used wheels and learn how to glue a set of tires. There are countless YouTube videos and folks like OP and Zanc have documented their process online. You might surprise yourself and have fun while also learning to appreciate the ride. If not, you can always sell the wheels and in the process, you will have learned a bit about cycling technology and had the opportunity to work with your own hands as well.

[Clean39T]

Try it, never been a better time than now when they are so cheap! this thread makes me happy, because im picking up tubular wheels for pennies on the dollar, because of the very fear this blabbering causes, so please, do keep up the debate, and do keep selling off your tubular rim brake wheels (to me) cheap because they suck and are a massive hassle. seriously, tons of work, im pretty tired today from the last time i had to glue tubulars like months ago, its so tiring.

at this rate i may never have to change a tubular tire, ill just pop a new cheap wheelset on and ride away.:eek:

Did you try out those Spesh Hell o' The North tyres yet?

[jamesdak]

As in interesting aside to this conversation. I got a bike recently that came with a set of tubular wheels identified by ex team members as the standard Team Saturn wheels from back in the 90s. Nice alloy wheels that I will be setting up and using. But weight-wise they have been hugely passed by even modern clinchers. A set of Fulcrum Racing 3's with standard butyl tubes and 700 x 25 Conti GP 4000s II clinchers comes in a pound lighter than the complete tubular setup they used to use. So now we say after 25 years clinchers have caught up and passed the tubulars of the 90s, weight wise....

[redir]

I've not read but a few responses but if someone has given up on tubulars and has a closet full of tires let me know, I need some :D

[93KgBike]

I'd love to dial up paceline and post this thread on my old usrobotics 1200 baud modem, but it's lost down in the basement, and I don't have a landline, or a phone that would fit it. Nor do I know the phone number for this place.:p

[ultraman6970]

Jamesdak you cant compare a 21st century wheel with a 80s wheel (clicher or tubular), the 21st century wheel is going to be a lot lighter. Materials and construction have changed a lot since the 80s, actually a wheel from the 80s was the same stuff everybody was using back 40 years earlier aswell.

So you cant compare, one thing tho... once you take that 80s wheel out you will notice a big difference with the fulcrum 3.

[djg21]

I'd love to dial up paceline and post this thread on my old usrobotics 1200 baud modem, but it's lost down in the basement, and I don't have a landline, or a phone that would fit it. Nor do I know the phone number for this place.:p



Luddite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ultraman6970]

I could help, have 2 of those still moving around, the only problem is that compuserve closed many years ago :p

[Mzilliox]

Did you try out those Spesh Hell o' The North tyres yet?

nope, i keep meaning to glue em up, but i cant decide if they are going on the boras or mavic r sys... probably the r sys. excited to ride them!

[Johnnysmooth]

Hassle factor has me using clinchers more often.
On grp rides, centuries, charity rides I am one of the few, if not the only one on Tubies. If something happens, I'm seriously up the creek. With clinchers, everyone has a spare tube, a patch kit et.

[jumphigher]

I used sew-ups in the 80's and I dont remember them being as flat-proof and easy to change as some people in this thread are making them out to be. :banana:

[jamesdak]

Hassle factor has me using clinchers more often.
On grp rides, centuries, charity rides I am one of the few, if not the only one on Tubies. If something happens, I'm seriously up the creek. With clinchers, everyone has a spare tube, a patch kit et.

Why. is it that big a deal to carry a spare or sealant?

[jamesdak]

I used sew-ups in the 80's and I dont remember them being as flat-proof and easy to change as some people in this thread are making them out to be. :banana:

Well I can't speak to then but today I took off a set of old tubulars and tested fitted the new Veloflex ones with just my hands. Oh, and my right arm is in a sling due to a separated shoulder and the left thumb is splinted. Wasn't hard at all. I hear others saying the new stuff is so much easier.

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/167078146.jpg

[RWeb]

After over 20 years I finally tried tubulars for the first time a few years ago. Not as convenient maybe as clincher, but to me any additional inconvenience is negligible and is far outweighed by all of the positives about them. I just wished I had tried them sooner. I love them.

[thwart]

After over 20 years I finally tried tubulars for the first time a few years ago. Not as convenient maybe as clincher, but to me any additional inconvenience is negligible and is far outweighed by all of the positives about them. I just wished I had tried them sooner. I love them.

Yep.

Got in a late winter ride today (we had some rain a few days ago to cut down the amount of salt 'n' sand :)) on the De Rosa with Vittoria SC tubulars... smooth and grippy.

Just about as comfortable as my winter bike with 35 mm tires... but much more responsive.

[sonicCows]

The only 30c+ tubulars i seem to find are CX tires, which is keeping me from trying them. Dont want to be using race tires for my plain boring rides

[jumphigher]

Well I can't speak to then but today I took off a set of old tubulars and tested fitted the new Veloflex ones with just my hands. Oh, and my right arm is in a sling due to a separated shoulder and the left thumb is splinted. Wasn't hard at all. I hear others saying the new stuff is so much easier.

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/167078146.jpg

So I'm genuinely curious, what exactly makes them easier to use these days than the 80's versions? And what happens if you get a flat, how is it repaired? I remember having to cut the threads on the back of the tire after you locate the hole, patch it, re-sew the tire. Then re-glue it back on the wheel, which was often a major PITA in it's own right. I remember them being hard to glue on straight.
Has all this changed somehow? I'll admit they ride well, but as others have stated, clinchers are pretty good these days. I have noticed tape is being used these days, which seems like a great idea to me..

[huck*this]

It's actually pretty easy for me. No high-end Carbon wheel should be ridden as a clincher. It's not so much about the tire as it is the rim for me. I ride clincher in the winter months. Alloy wheels and ease of changing a flat, but once a couple 70 degree days start coming around and pot holes get filled the carbon tubs come out to play and stay.

[oldpotatoe]

Hassle factor has me using clinchers more often.
On grp rides, centuries, charity rides I am one of the few, if not the only one on Tubies. If something happens, I'm seriously up the creek. With clinchers, everyone has a spare tube, a patch kit et.

Use sealant and take an extra spare if you are worried. If you seriously cut a clincher, I doubt anybody would have a tire.

[benb]

All the argument about performance differences is mostly sounding silly to me. That’s an argument for older guys.

I’m 40. I’ve never owned a bike with tubulars, I don’t even think I’ve ever even seen them on a bike owned/rode by anyone I rode with, or on my team when I raced, or even necessarily spotted them in a race. I only raced in Cat 4 & 5 but had friends who were 2 (and I’d argue 3 or 2 in the 00’s/teens means something different because there were more participants) and they never purchased them either.

Everyone my age or younger has likely never bought a bike that came with tubulars as the OEM wheel/tire choice. So we only really know clinchers, and tubulars are/were always “more expensive” because they always represented an extra cost item we had to purchase on top of the bike. Particularly when racing most of the people I knew were very frugal with the costs.

Now you get out of racing and all these equipment differences seem minimal compared to other things.

Here we’ve got 10+ pages of older guys arguing about < 200g weight differences and rolling resistance. I’m by no means fat... but I can easily lose a couple kg getting in shape, and I can easily do a smarter training plan to add some more watts. Or I could hire a coach for way less than a high end tubular wheelset.

(I actually have never bought any Carbon rims either)

So I don’t think this giant argument really had anything to with performance, more about nostalgia and income signaling, tribalism, etc..

If tubulars is nostalgia for the time when there were fewer cyclists and the good old days and there were fewer (but nicer) riders out on the roads that seems like a pretty good reason I think.

But for lots of we never tried them, little exposure, no real reason to care.

[rwsaunders]

^ I have some latebreaking news for you...you're 40 and now considered an older guy too.

[benb]

Yes but I never rode in an era where anyone really cared about tubular wheels/tires out in the real world, point was people younger than me didn’t either.

The internet can be an influencer but it’s nothing compared to walking into a shop and seeing 100% clinchers and the same thing when you hit the group ride or the starting line.

[jamesdak]

^ i have some latebreaking news for you...you're 40 and now considered an older guy too.

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jamesdak]

All the argument about performance differences is mostly sounding silly to me. That’s an argument for older guys.

I’m 40. I’ve never owned a bike with tubulars, I don’t even think I’ve ever even seen them on a bike owned/rode by anyone I rode with, or on my team when I raced, or even necessarily spotted them in a race. I only raced in Cat 4 & 5 but had friends who were 2 (and I’d argue 3 or 2 in the 00’s/teens means something different because there were more participants) and they never purchased them either.

Everyone my age or younger has likely never bought a bike that came with tubulars as the OEM wheel/tire choice. So we only really know clinchers, and tubulars are/were always “more expensive” because they always represented an extra cost item we had to purchase on top of the bike. Particularly when racing most of the people I knew were very frugal with the costs.

Now you get out of racing and all these equipment differences seem minimal compared to other things.

Here we’ve got 10+ pages of older guys arguing about < 200g weight differences and rolling resistance. I’m by no means fat... but I can easily lose a couple kg getting in shape, and I can easily do a smarter training plan to add some more watts. Or I could hire a coach for way less than a high end tubular wheelset.

(I actually have never bought any Carbon rims either)

So I don’t think this giant argument really had anything to with performance, more about nostalgia and income signaling, tribalism, etc..

If tubulars is nostalgia for the time when there were fewer cyclists and the good old days and there were fewer (but nicer) riders out on the roads that seems like a pretty good reason I think.

But for lots of we never tried them, little exposure, no real reason to care.


Well, if you can't feel and enjoy the sensation caused by a 200 gram reduction on the rims of your wheels then I'd say you are not very tuned in as a rider. The most important thing to me as I dial in the ride of my 25+ bikes is how they feel and react under me. Lighter wheels with good tires ARE the biggest gain of everything I do. For me it's nothing about being old, which I am, or nostalgia. It's about more progress towards the perfect ride.

[oldpotatoe]

All the argument about performance differences is mostly sounding silly to me. That’s an argument for older guys.
I’m 40. I’ve never owned a bike with tubulars

So I don’t think this giant argument really had anything to with performance, more about nostalgia and income signaling, tribalism, etc..
If tubulars is nostalgia for the time when there were fewer cyclists and the good old days and there were fewer (but nicer) riders out on the roads that seems like a pretty good reason I think.
But for lots of we never tried them, little exposure, no real reason to care.

That kinda sums it up...3rd/4th/8th hand info about something you have never even seen, let alone actually use..gotcha.:eek:

The internet can be an influencer but it’s nothing compared to walking into a shop and seeing 100% clinchers

Then go find a true 'pro' shop and see what they actually offer.:eek:

A trekspecializedgiantcannondale store isn't necessarily a 'pro' shop.

But ya know, if you don't think tubulars are 'worth' it, don't use them for any reason you wish to conjure up..'some' of us still think they are, worth it.

[KarlC]

Yes but I never rode in an era where anyone really cared about tubular wheels/tires out in the real world, point was people younger than me didn’t either.

The internet can be an influencer but it’s nothing compared to walking into a shop and seeing 100% clinchers and the same thing when you hit the group ride or the starting line.

I hear what your saying, but Im also one of the very few that shows up on a steel bike with tubular's in a sea of carbon bikes and clinchers.

But I also dont wait in line at starbucks

Nothing against anyone else, ride and drink what you like.

.

[Mzilliox]

Well, if you can't feel and enjoy the sensation caused by a 200 gram reduction on the rims of your wheels then I'd say you are not very tuned in as a rider. The most important thing to me as I dial in the ride of my 25+ bikes is how they feel and react under me. Lighter wheels with good tires ARE the biggest gain of everything I do. For me it's nothing about being old, which I am, or nostalgia. It's about more progress towards the perfect ride.

This is spot on: "Progress toward the perfect ride". It's not for everyone.
and to address the tribalism/ income indicator issue: My 2 sets of tubulars with tires were cheaper than any of my decent clinchers, are 200plus grams lighter, ride as well if not better, and came with plenty of rubber. If you can't find cheap tubulars its because you haven't opened your eyes.

[Tony]

This is spot on: "Progress toward the perfect ride". It's not for everyone.
and to address the tribalism/ income indicator issue: My 2 sets of tubulars with tires were cheaper than any of my decent clinchers, are 200plus grams lighter, ride as well if not better, and came with plenty of rubber. If you can't find cheap tubulars its because you haven't opened your eyes.

Those of you that use sealant in your tubular's how often do you keep adding sealant to your tires? Sealant dries up in short time, two to four months depending on temperature and brand. Just keep adding to dried up sealant? There goes that 200 gram savings. If your wheel sits for months than you have an ounce dried up in one area of the tire, balance may be effected?

[oldpotatoe]

Those of you that use sealant in your tubular's how often do you keep adding sealant to your tires? Sealant dries up in short time, two to four months depending on temperature and brand. Just keep adding to dried up sealant? There goes that 200 gram savings. If your wheel sits for months than you have an ounce dried up in one area of the tire, balance may be effected?

I wear it out way before that time when sealant dries up. I did have a wee leak not long ago on a tire that was at the end of its life, and sealant still ‘liquid’, OrangeSeal.

[jamesdak]

Those of you that use sealant in your tubular's how often do you keep adding sealant to your tires? Sealant dries up in short time, two to four months depending on temperature and brand. Just keep adding to dried up sealant? There goes that 200 gram savings. If your wheel sits for months than you have an ounce dried up in one area of the tire, balance may be effected?

I've wondered this with the folks running tubeless too or even those clincher users that put sealent in there inner tubes. This really isn't a tubular issue, its a sealent issue.

[KarlC]

Those of you that use sealant in your tubular's how often do you keep adding sealant to your tires? Sealant dries up in short time, two to four months depending on temperature and brand. Just keep adding to dried up sealant? There goes that 200 gram savings. If your wheel sits for months than you have an ounce dried up in one area of the tire, balance may be effected?

Good question, but where did you get your info from on the sealant drying up that fast?

Ive had it last way longer that that, but I'm not sure how long different brands last.

[Tony]

"I wear it out way before that time when sealant dries up. I did have a wee leak not long ago on a tire that was at the end of its life, and sealant still ‘liquid’, OrangeSeal."

Lots of miles on your tires for them to wear out for OS to still be liquid. After four months in Sacramento weather 2.5-3 oz of OS will dry up. In my experience OS dries faster than Stans

"I've wondered this with the folks running tubeless too or even those clincher users that put sealent in there inner tubes. This really isn't a tubular issue, its a sealent issue."

If your using sealant in your tubular than it becomes a tubular issue.
I have five mtbs at home, all running sealant. I have not yet seen Stans or OS go past 5 months without drying up completely. That's 2-3 oz of added rubber inside your tire. With clinchers you can remove most of the sealant, tubes not happening.

[Tony]

Good question, but where did you get your info from on the sealant drying up that fast?

Ive had it last way longer that that, but I'm not sure how long different brands last.

Have 5 mtbs at home and do work for several friends who also are running tubeless, changing/repairing tires. This is based on my experience here in Sacramento area. I believe temperature and use plays a role in how fast sealant dries up.

[oldpotatoe]

Lots of miles on your tires for them to wear out for OS to still be liquid. After four months in Sacramento weather 2.5-3 oz of OS will dry up. In my experience OS dries faster than Stans

About 3 months, 1800 or so miles, tire not dead but certainly squared off. OS still sealed hole... topped off tire, rode home and changed tire.

[jamesdak]

With clinchers you can remove most of the sealant, tubes not happening.

I assume you meant tubeless....

I have no plans to pre-apply sealant myself. To easy to just carry a spare, old school style. Of course I also run a frame pump on almost all my bikes vs Co2 like many....

[jamesdak]

About 3 months, 1800 or so miles, tire not dead but certainly squared off. OS still sealed hole... topped off tire, rode home and changed tire.

I was thinking, "thats a lot of miles." Then I realized thats about typical for me too. I just spread those miles out over twenty-some bikes so tires last me a long time.

[glepore]

I'm really anxious to try the new finish line sealant that doesn't contain latex and doesn't dry out. Sounds like it'd be ideal for tubulars.

[Mzilliox]

sealant? that would require flatting, which i choose not to do:banana:

Ill deal with sealant when it becomes a thing, until then ill keep riding with a huge smile.;)

[Tony]

About 3 months, 1800 or so miles, tire not dead but certainly squared off. OS still sealed hole... topped off tire, rode home and changed tire.

Maybe sealant interacts differently with latex compared to rubber. Also, the lesser volume area of a road tubular as compared to the larger volume 2.3+ mtb tire.

[MaraudingWalrus]

I just bought a set of zipp404 tubular from a customer for $200. I'll rebuild them for my fixed gear. Will report back on this tubular experience...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rwsaunders]

Yes but I never rode in an era where anyone really cared about tubular wheels/tires out in the real world, point was people younger than me didn’t either.

The internet can be an influencer but it’s nothing compared to walking into a shop and seeing 100% clinchers and the same thing when you hit the group ride or the starting line.


Just giving you some old fashioned Paceline ribbing.

I don't know if the area that you ride in is hilly, but I converted to tubulars about five years ago primarily for safety reasons, as it's pretty easy to hit 40-45mph on some of the hills where I live. I feel a bit more secure about puncturing a front tire as I have had two friends go down hard with punctured clinchers and it wasn't pretty in either case.

In terms of ride quality, I can't say that I notice major differences between my two sets of tubular tires/wheels vs my one set of clincher tires/wheels, as they are all 32h rims laced to Campag Record hubs, and both bikes are steel frames.

I do have a favorite tire and those are Veloflex Vlaanderen, which measure out at 27mm at 80-85psi on a set of Nemesis rims. Try some if you have the chance.

[jamesdak]

Just giving you some old fashioned Paceline ribbing.

I don't know if the area that you ride in is hilly, but I converted to tubulars about five years ago primarily for safety reasons, as it's pretty easy to hit 40-45mph on some of the hills where I live. I feel a bit more secure about puncturing a front tire as I have had two friends go down hard with punctured clinchers and it wasn't pretty in either case.

In terms of ride quality, I can't say that I notice major differences between my two sets of tubular tires/wheels vs my one set of clincher tires/wheels, as they are all 32h rims laced to Campag Record hubs, and both bikes are steel frames.

I do have a favorite tire and those are Veloflex Vlaanderen, which measure out at 27mm at 80-85psi on a set of Nemesis rims. Try some if you have the chance.

By coincidence, just tested fitted them on my one Paramount.

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/167082160.jpg

[Mark McM]

Use sealant and take an extra spare if you are worried. If you seriously cut a clincher, I doubt anybody would have a tire.

I've ridden with some randonneur riders who carry spare clincher tires, although for most part clincher riders don't carry them.

On the other hand, clincher tires are easily booted, and many times clincher riders can continue riding even with large slashes in their tires.

[fiamme red]

I've ridden with some randonneur riders who carry spare clincher tires, although for most part clincher riders don't carry them.

On the other hand, clincher tires are easily booted, and many times clincher riders can continue riding even with large slashes in their tires.When I'm touring or doing long rides in remote areas, I always carry a spare folded clincher.

[teleguy57]

I don't know if the area that you ride in is hilly, but I converted to tubulars about five years ago primarily for safety reasons, as it's pretty easy to hit 40-45mph on some of the hills where I live. I feel a bit more secure about puncturing a front tire as I have had two friends go down hard with punctured clinchers and it wasn't pretty in either case.

I do have a favorite tire and those are Veloflex Vlaanderen, which measure out at 27mm at 80-85psi on a set of Nemesis rims. Try some if you have the chance.

By coincidence, just tested fitted them on my one Paramount.

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/167082160.jpg

Now that is a great look!

Ability to ride a flat tire safely is part of my rationale for tubulars, in addition to better ride quality (IMHO) fewer flats (yeah, I probably shouldn't have written that), and just an overall good feeling about them. Carry a bottle of sealant as well as a spare so I'm confident I can be ready to ride home faster than I can change a clincher tbe roadside.

How bad is it that I have had some Vlaanderens hanging for almost a year now and can't decide if I should put them on my Nemesis (currently wearing 25mm Paves), Shamals (currently wearing 25mm Corsa Elites) or Bontrager D3 35s (currently wearing 25mm Corsa SCs)???

Of course, part of the challenge is I have one each of the Elites and SCs waiting as replacements... :confused::confused::confused:

[rwsaunders]

https://i.imgur.com/XnLRKXJh.jpg

teleguy...here are some Vlaanderen mounted on Nemesis rims...now save those Paves for a rainy day and join the crowd.

[climbgdh]

i use tubulars and campagnolo....

+1.....

[grognaak]

Custom steel bike (with Campy) and new wheels were just assembled. Record hubs, H+ Son TB14 rims, Veloflex Master 25 tires. Older fellas hanging around the shop laid on the compliments, but said I should consider sew-ups. Uh, well, hey, I just had new clincher wheels built ten minutes ago, thank you very much! :bike:

I'm thinking about throwing in some latex tubes. Can someone with experience on a similar setup as mine and experience on good tubular wheels qualify the difference for me, please?--as if more could be said in this thread. I'm not opposed to trying tubulars in the future--it's not going to happen anytime soon. If the difference between my setup and tubulars is too small for even a custom grump like me to notice, I'll just wait until the rims wear out. Thanks.

[Rudy]

Well I can't speak to then but today I took off a set of old tubulars and tested fitted the new Veloflex ones with just my hands. Oh, and my right arm is in a sling due to a separated shoulder and the left thumb is splinted. Wasn't hard at all. I hear others saying the new stuff is so much easier.

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/167078146.jpg

Without regard to tires, more of this nifty frame would be welcomed.

[oldpotatoe]

Custom steel bike (with Campy) and new wheels were just assembled. Record hubs, H+ Son TB14 rims, Veloflex Master 25 tires. Older fellas hanging around the shop laid on the compliments, but said I should consider sew-ups. Uh, well, hey, I just had new clincher wheels built ten minutes ago, thank you very much! :bike:

I'm thinking about throwing in some latex tubes. Can someone with experience on a similar setup as mine and experience on good tubular wheels qualify the difference for me, please?--as if more could be said in this thread. I'm not opposed to trying tubulars in the future--it's not going to happen anytime soon. If the difference between my setup and tubulars is too small for even a custom grump like me to notice, I'll just wait until the rims wear out. Thanks.

Put latex tubes in there and report. 'Feel' is subjective, BUT there are other advantages to tubies besides 'feel'. They also corner very well since the sidewalls are supple, which, like a radial car tire, more tread stays on the road. PLUS 'some' wee weight savings PLUS..if glued on properly(no, not black or or weird science)..if ya flat, the tire won't come off rim, which is a real possibility with clinchers.

Throw in the lower pressure craze and no pinch flats..yes, tubies have real advantages. :)

[Vamoots58]

+1.....

+2 ( Tubulars & Campagnolo )

[redir]

Didn't read all the posts TLDR...

But... I don't see tubulars as a throw back to a by gone era. Modern deep dish carbon clinchers? Yuk! If I'm gonna spend big bucks on light weight and VERY stiff carbon wheels they are going to be tubular.

[EDS]

Didn't read all the posts TLDR...

But... I don't see tubulars as a throw back to a by gone era. Modern deep dish carbon clinchers? Yuk! If I'm gonna spend big bucks on light weight and VERY stiff carbon wheels they are going to be tubular.

I know everyone's experiences are different, but locally here in NYC I think the percentage of tubulars in races has declined notably in the past 5+ years - particularly due to the fact that carbon clinchers have become more viable. Maybe that is unique to this areas as most racers are apartment dwellers like me and being creative about when and where to glue tubulars gets old.

I still race on carbon tubulars but am strongly considering buying some carbon clinchers and just using those all the time. I know others are very proficient at changing tubulars in the event of a flat but not me (for all other posters, please feel free to direct your anger at me for my shortcomings), so my non-racing miles are almost always on clinchers.

[unterhausen]

I guess we need to process this thread all over again. I think I might still have some (4?) unused Clement Criterium Setas left over from 1980. Definitely need to Kondo those things. Yes, I'm an uncultured slob and too lazy to glue tires on. I still have a pro-tubular bias left over from before you could get decent clinchers, but as soon as I could buy clinchers that would fit on my race bike, I started training on them. Then switch for races.

[Mzilliox]

after this thread has seasoned more, and so have my tubulars, i have to say, i still prefer tubulars. On the day to day they are simply less work. if i only got to own one set of wheels, im not sure id choose tubulars, but maybe.

however, given the choices, i roll out on tubulars nearly every ride. they are more fuss free and feel better.

I prefer them to clinchers, but i have not tried this tubeless voodoo nonsense. of course you cats talk about the gluing, and i hear about guys blowing tires and spewing sludge and all that jazz, hows that different? gluing is actually really easy, it just takes time. like most things in life.

[oldpotatoe]

after this thread has seasoned more, and so have my tubulars, i have to say, i still prefer tubulars. On the day to day they are simply less work. if i only got to own one set of wheels, im not sure id choose tubulars, but maybe.

however, given the choices, i roll out on tubulars nearly every ride. they are more fuss free and feel better.

I prefer them to clinchers, but i have not tried this tubeless voodoo nonsense. of course you cats talk about the gluing, and i hear about guys blowing tires and spewing sludge and all that jazz, hows that different? gluing is actually really easy, it just takes time. like most things in life.

Reality, what a concept. I sold my last set of clinchers about 18 months ago..have no desire to ever own any clincher again..:)

[Hellgate]

I'd love to ride tubbies again, but there is some much crap from construction on the roads I couldn't afford to do so.

I sold a wonderful pair the Hyperons, and a set with Record hubs with Reflex rims. Oh well...now it's Bora, Shamals, Zondas, and Chorus with Open Pros.

[Mzilliox]

I'd love to ride tubbies again, but there is some much crap from construction on the roads I couldn't afford to do so.

I sold a wonderful pair the Hyperons, and a set with Record hubs with Reflex rims. Oh well...now it's Bora, Shamals, Zondas, and Chorus with Open Pros.

i have fully found the opposite to be true. i have now been on tubulars for 2 seasons with literally zero flats (i did however somehow make it to within 30ft of home when one tire finally wore thin). in that time i have changed or helped change tires on several of my riding buddies rigs due to crappy roads, which are everywhere, because we dont fix things in this country. I have changed my wifes commuter tires, i have sat roadside while folks change their michelins, or GP4000s, or you name it.

i guess my experience is that tubulars dont flat as often, dont require nearly as much weekly or monthly care, and even come with the bonus of a better and lighter ride.

im not trying to convince anyone to ride tubular, i really dont care if folks choose more work. but sell me your wheels cheap because nobody wants them please.

[Mzilliox]

ooooop

[hollowgram5]

im not trying to convince anyone to ride tubular, i really dont care if folks choose more work. but sell me your wheels cheap because nobody wants them please.

Yes!

I've got both tubulars and clinchers and the only time I really don't prefer the tubulars is when I'm riding my wheel-on trainer. Because it seems silly to burn a tubular up when pedalling indoors.

On the road, I'd gladly ride a tubular over a clincher; changing a flat isn't all that awful either once you know what you are doing and have had some practice.

[KarlC]

I'd love to ride tubbies again, but there is some much crap from construction on the roads I couldn't afford to do so.

I sold a wonderful pair the Hyperons, and a set with Record hubs with Reflex rims. Oh well...now it's Bora, Shamals, Zondas, and Chorus with Open Pros.


i have fully found the opposite to be true. i have now been on tubulars for 2 seasons with literally zero flats (i did however somehow make it to within 30ft of home when one tire finally wore thin). in that time i have changed or helped change tires on several of my riding buddies rigs due to crappy roads, which are everywhere, because we dont fix things in this country. I have changed my wifes commuter tires, i have sat roadside while folks change their michelins, or GP4000s, or you name it.

i guess my experience is that tubulars dont flat as often, dont require nearly as much weekly or monthly care, and even come with the bonus of a better and lighter ride.

im not trying to convince anyone to ride tubular, i really dont care if folks choose more work. but sell me your wheels cheap because nobody wants them please.

I have to agree with Matt here.

All I ride is tubulars, all the time and Im the only one I know of on our rides that uses tubulars. But I almost never get flats when all of the other guys do, yes the glue up can be a bit of a pain at times but that's really rare.

.

[grognaak]

Put latex tubes in there and report. 'Feel' is subjective, BUT there are other advantages to tubies besides 'feel'. They also corner very well since the sidewalls are supple, which, like a radial car tire, more tread stays on the road. PLUS 'some' wee weight savings PLUS..if glued on properly(no, not black or or weird science)..if ya flat, the tire won't come off rim, which is a real possibility with clinchers.

Throw in the lower pressure craze and no pinch flats..yes, tubies have real advantages. :)

Few thoughts from open-minded person (me):
*I seem to only get a flat tire on clinchers once every two or three years, basically when the butyl gets old it seems. I pay a lot of attention to junk in the road.
*Are Veloflex Master open clinchers not supple? They are something like 320 TPI if I remember correctly.
*About weight, it seems that the spin-up would be faster on tubular wheels, but that clincher wheels would have more momentum. I'm on 20 pound plus bikes and weight is more of a nuance curiosity than a real concern in my world.
*The part about a tire staying on the rim is of most interest to me. I'd like to think about how to quantify this risk. I'm not descending like Nibali, but safety is a priority.
*Low pressure craze? I guess I have some catching up to do on the literature. I've been running 25s at 95 to 105 psi for years, thinking it was more or less optimal.

Help me see the light.

[redir]

I know everyone's experiences are different, but locally here in NYC I think the percentage of tubulars in races has declined notably in the past 5+ years - particularly due to the fact that carbon clinchers have become more viable. Maybe that is unique to this areas as most racers are apartment dwellers like me and being creative about when and where to glue tubulars gets old.

I still race on carbon tubulars but am strongly considering buying some carbon clinchers and just using those all the time. I know others are very proficient at changing tubulars in the event of a flat but not me (for all other posters, please feel free to direct your anger at me for my shortcomings), so my non-racing miles are almost always on clinchers.

FWIW Veloflex Masters are the best clincher tires I have ever ridden. There was another one made by Panaracer that I loved too but I forgot what they were called. But the Masters are the closest Tubular feel I have found and they are not expensive either.

I guess we need to process this thread all over again. I think I might still have some (4?) unused Clement Criterium Setas left over from 1980. Definitely need to Kondo those things. Yes, I'm an uncultured slob and too lazy to glue tires on. I still have a pro-tubular bias left over from before you could get decent clinchers, but as soon as I could buy clinchers that would fit on my race bike, I started training on them. Then switch for races.

IDK what Kondo means but if it means sell then I'll take 'em ;)

[Hellgate]

I have to agree with Matt here.



All I ride is tubulars, all the time and Im the only one I know of on our rides that uses tubulars. But I almost never get flats when all of the other guys do, yes the glue up can be a bit of a pain at times but that's really rare.



.I am forever getting bits of wire, pieces of glass that cause the punctures. I'd guess a flat once every two weeks. That is on a nice, fresh Corsa. If I go it a Specialized Espior Sport, a truly dreadful tire, I flat much less. However you can see the nail, nailed that tire!

With a massive amount of home building in the area the trucks track mud on to the roads and "stuff" falls off them.

Here's a couple of the lovely items I've picked up.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190222/6fa555623f652d9c7009fc97a94b32c0.jpg1697975108

[rwsaunders]

My Nucelons and Record/Nemesis wheels see all of the action these days and I’m down to two sets of clincher wheelsets (one pair of NOS Neutron Ultras and a pair of silver Record hubs laced to Open Pro CD’s). They both have been gathering dust for the past five years and if they weren’t so pretty to look at, I’d sell them.

[bikinchris]

I love tubulars. Great ride, grip and feel. I can't afford them. A flat costs too much.

[unterhausen]

IDK what Kondo means but if it means sell then I'll take 'em ;)

Do you think a 30 year old tubular would still hold air?

[Mark McM]

Few thoughts from open-minded person (me):
*I seem to only get a flat tire on clinchers once every two or three years, basically when the butyl gets old it seems. I pay a lot of attention to junk in the road.

I get a few more flats, maybe one a year on average (sometimes I'll got none one year, and 2 the next). Sometimes I'll wear out a tire before it flats. Given the amount of time to fit a new clincher tire and to fix a flat out on the road, as compared to the time it takes to glue up a tubular, clincher tires save me time (over both tubulars and tubeless tires).

.*About weight, it seems that the spin-up would be faster on tubular wheels, but that clincher wheels would have more momentum. I'm on 20 pound plus bikes and weight is more of a nuance curiosity than a real concern in my world.

For most practical cases, tubulars are heavier and slower than clinchers:
- Tubular rims are lighter than clincher rims. But clincher tires/tubes plus a spare tube is lighter than tubular tires plus a spare tire and the difference is greater the difference in rim weights. So if you have to carry your own spares, clinchers end up being lighter.
- As noted, because tubular rims are lighter, they have less rotational inertia, so they will "spin up" faster under the same power. However, tubular tires typically have more rolling resistance, reducing the power available for acceleration. Because of the reduction in accelerating power, the lighter tubular wheels may not accelerate any faster (and in some cases will be slower).
- Because of the greater rolling resistance tubular tires will also be slower at steady state speeds. Going up hill, the lighter weight of tubular rims help, but the hill has to be very steep before the extra rolling resistance is overcome. (Note: I do have a set of tubular wheels, but I only use them for hillclimb races, for hills with average grades greater than 10%.)

*The part about a tire staying on the rim is of most interest to me. I'd like to think about how to quantify this risk. I'm not descending like Nibali, but safety is a priority.

This part is generally true. But clinchers coming off a rim is still not common, and most riders can come to stop on a flat clincher without crashing. However, if you can't afford to stop to change a flat tire (as can happen in racing situation), tubulars may be preferable.

**Low pressure craze? I guess I have some catching up to do on the literature. I've been running 25s at 95 to 105 psi for years, thinking it was more or less optimal.

This also has some truth, as tubulars are less likely to suffer pinch flats. This is why tubulars are still the top choice for cyclocross. On rough roads, many people are opting for tubeless tires instead. For most road riders though, this is less of a concern.


Based on all this, tubulars are only an advantage if you don't have to carry your own spares, and you if may have to continue riding on a flat tires to avoid loosing time - in other words, they are only an advantage in track racing, cyclocross racing, or in professional road racing with support vehicles (the other type of professional racing with bicycles, triathlon, has largely abandoned tubular tires due to their disadvantages). For most other types of riding, including amateur road racing, clinchers are generally better.

[KarlC]

.........

For most practical cases, tubulars are heavier and slower than clinchers:
- Tubular rims are lighter than clincher rims. But clincher tires/tubes plus a spare tube is lighter than tubular tires plus a spare tire and the difference is greater the difference in rim weights. So if you have to carry your own spares, clinchers end up being lighter.
- As noted, because tubular rims are lighter, they have less rotational inertia, so they will "spin up" faster under the same power. However, tubular tires typically have more rolling resistance, reducing the power available for acceleration. Because of the reduction in accelerating power, the lighter tubular wheels may not accelerate any faster (and in some cases will be slower).
- Because of the greater rolling resistance tubular tires will also be slower at steady state speeds. Going up hill, the lighter weight of tubular rims help, but the hill has to be very steep before the extra rolling resistance is overcome. (Note: I do have a set of tubular wheels, but I only use them for hillclimb races, for hills with average grades greater than 10%.)



Not to start a debate but to you have any known and generally agreed upon examples or facts to back these points up ?

As an example most guys I know that ride A LOT dont see the need to carry a spare tubular tire these days. Instead they carry something like orange seal ........


This is my tool kit, it's barely noticeable in my back jersey pocket:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190205/b825e44c312cf3696e959d7e5f2eb075.jpg

Cash, credit card, ID, multi tool, salt pills, valve tool and a few mils of orange seal. I also have a small pump.



Orange Seal (Regular). I got fooled once by thinking the “Endurance” formula had to be best (right?) but all the Endurance part means is that it will stay liquid longer when it is in the tube. Since I only use it when/if I puncture the Regular version is what you want as it seals better, and quicker it seems. My entire repair “kit” fits into a Snack size ziplock bag and I can fix/adjust virtually anything that might happen on the road, not just a flat tubular...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190115/937eb0335e9137a41ea9afce915415cf.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190115/be86f6212b9f04460e5331b4bc8de889.jpg
Contents:
- old 50ml Tufo sealant bottle (filled with OrangeSeal) that is a much more convenient size to carry than the smallest size OrangeSeal bottle. I just swap caps since the orange seal cap, with the clear plastic tube for getting sealant through the valve without making a mess is really key to an easy mess free fix;
- 2mm and 2.5mm hex wrenches;
- old Mavic Hub tool which is very thin and strong and perfect in the event I need to get underneath a glued tubular to work it loose around the rim for removal;
- presta/schrader adaptor in the event I have to use a gas station for air;
- teensy Swiss Army Knife for whatever, but mostly so I can pick out any debris from the tire that caused the puncture in the first place. It even has tweezers;
- valve core removal tool... need to remove the valve core to inject sealant;
- Spare valve core (just realized it is missing from my package that I just emptied. I will add it after this post;
- Small Lezyne Mulittool (3,4,5,6mm hex keys, Torx25, small Phillips screwdriver;
- spoke wrench, fits my Nemesis wheels and a good portion of spokes that people you may encounter might have.

And what’s all that weigh...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190115/abecf52265dcd04061f324e8a6459861.jpg
I just put the pen there for scale, it’s really small and fits easily and comfortably in my jersey pocket. For comparison, my iPhone 10 which I’m writing on right now weighs 210g in its silicone case and fits in my other jersey pocket.



Very nice Cal !

Here is my everyday repair kit, sealant with air so I dont carry a pump, so far its only not worked 1 time, in the past 4 years, when I had a large cut thru the tire from a road full of glass I could not avoid on a 50mph down hill run. For all day rides I carry a bit more tools.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7906/46753437441_915d93538c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eerA5Z)

[denapista]

Tubulars are not difficult at all.

A slight learning curve but gluing is easy and straight-forward. The Effetto Mariposa Carogna tape makes things super easy!!!

BTW, I had many more flats when I ran normal clinchers than I have had on tubulars. (Knock on wood!!!)

Most people that complain of gluing, have never done so... I've been on the same set of Veloflex Vlaanderen tires for close to a year now. My clincher friends have been through so many tubes in that time. Factor in the cost of tubes to my set of tires that have yet to flatten once....

Did we all not learn how to glue as kids? It's pretty damn easy. If you flat, you're done for the day. Come home, glue up another tire and mount it. Ready to ride the next day. If you're on a long ride, carry a spare in a cut water bottle in your cage, to alleviate the ugly look under the saddle. If you're concerned about water, then buy a larger water bottle to carry and use the other cage for your spare. I've ridden home 30-40mi on a spare once and it was a bitch to get the spare off. So that's how good a spare is with a little glue on it...

I attribute tubular fear to the internet and old techniques in gluing that are all over the internet from Zipp, etc. It does not take 2 full days to glue tires. I glue mount and wait til the next morning to ride. Do you think Pro mechanics are waiting 48 hours to let glue cure? Two light coats, mount and let sit until the next day before your ride...

I would never buy a race car and put crappy tires on it. Porsche, Lambo, etc all develop their cars with tires in mind. If you can show me a clincher tire that can equate ride quality and durability to a Veloflex Vlaanderen, or Veloflex Record then....

[grognaak]

I also need to know if the following video represents the normal for changing / mounting a tubular tire if I am going to be converted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGw3DlZMRGI

The guy doing the demo makes it seem like a long, careful process, or is that just my uninitiated opinion? So, basically, I would still need to have a backup set of wheels if I went this route, right? What happens if I flat a tubular on a multi-day adventure? Can I be confident that sealant is going to handle that or that a spare tire is going to stay on the wheel for a whole day of riding? I don't mind taking care of my bikes and tinkering, but, even if you love tubulars, isn't it kind of cool that clincher tube/tire changes are once and done?

Again, help me see the light. If I'm possibly getting 80-90% of the benefits of tubulars from H+ Son TB14s, Veloflex Master 25s, and Vittoria latex tubes, then it's really hard to see why I wouldn't want to retain most of what is best in both worlds.

Update: Missed the last post before posting mine. It sounds like the Zipp video I link is not really representative. Thanks.

[denapista]

Say it's Saturday and I slash a Veloflex Tubular on the road. I pop on my spare and either finish my ride or ride home. I base continuing my ride depending on the terrain. My personal preference. I've descended gnarly roads on a spare, I just didn't lean like I was in MotoGP, due to it being a spare slapped on. I've been "Out There" and finished my ride on a spare and no kittens died that day... You can ride on a spare tire, just be mindful of extreme leaning for the first few miles. After like 4-5mi on a spare, that tire will mend with the glue on the rim and it may be a bitch to get the spare off! Happened to me twice. By being a bitch, I simply mean you need some effort to remove.

When I get home, I should already have stretched out tires because as a tubular rider, you're always buying tire from deals that surface. I have like 12 tires right now.... I pull off the spare, apply 1 coat of glue on the new tire and wait 20 minutes and apply another coat and mount tire. Do my rolling and centering technique, inflate to 120psi and let that tire sit overnight until the next day. That tire sat overnight and will be ready to shred the next morning.

One step I missed would be to inspect the level of glue left on the rim after removing the spare. In most cases there's enough glue on the rim for the new tire to active against. If you feel there isn't (this can only come with experience to recognize how much is on your rim). then apply (1) thin coat before the (2) thin coats on the tire.

I'm sure all of the text above makes it sound super complex, but it's totally not. It literally takes me 30min to glue/center a new tire after a flat.

The key to tubulars, is to buy good ones. I love Veloflex tires. If your bike can fit Vlaanderen's, then it would be the only tire I would recommend. It rolls super fast and the durability is beyond anything I've ever ridden. Ridden through glass, dirt, staples, etc.. The tire kicks ass!

[Gummee]

Interesting. Never heard of tubulars for MTB's. And I don't think that it was because it was before my time.

I most likely will have faded away long before the tubular trend. :)

http://www.challengetech.it/products/mtb/en

FMB probably makes some
Ditto with Dugast

M

edited to add: If you haven't yet, riding tubulars on gravel rides are awesome. Better than tubeless by far.

[unterhausen]

I have thought of starting to carry sealant for my clinchers. Most recent 2 flats were slow leaks and they would have sealed fine with a little sealant. OTOH, I might not have been able to find and remove the cause from the outside

[93KgBike]

All the stretching and gluing and waiting for tubulars is not made up for by the marginally superior weight/acceleration/float/etc. I might feel on the very best $$$$ tub. Flatting on the road requires fixing the new tire and then doing it all over again, properly, once I get home. And riding with dirty sticky fingers is distracting.

All the mess and mess and mess of tubeless is not made up for by the uh, well, let's see... by the, um, hmm.... Flatting in the woods requires probably using the emergency innertube in my bag anyway. And then making a big sticky mess getting the tire fixed once I get back home.

Clinchers are simple, they work great and feel as good as tubulars for the short portion of my rides where, "my tires feel so," is even a thought I might have.

I haven't had a flat in years on my commuter clincher Schwalbe Marathon Supreme's. They wear down to slicks before they flat. I have the rare road flat on the various brands on my road bikes, but once it's fixed, it's done.

Tubulars are great, but they peaked in the late 70's or 80's imho, because clinchers and inner tubes (and clincher wheels) have gotten so good and are factors easier to use for DIYers.

[sokyroadie]

I ride mostly tubulars on shallow (32 - 38) carbon rims, this will be year 3 on one set that has Corsa Elites mounted and I see no reason to re-glue since they are still tightly adhered. Gluing is easy and the ride is great.

I am having a set of Carbon clinchers being built as I write this, the wheelbuilder had to have his arm twisted, but he finally relented.;):banana::banana:

Seriously 99% of my riding is on clean rural roads in good shape that are at most rolling, absolutely no winding descents, perfect for Carbon Clinchers and of course rim brake.

[KarlC]

This .........


.......

I should already have stretched out tires because as a tubular rider, you're always buying tire from deals that surface. I have like 12 tires right now.... I pull off the spare, apply 1 coat of glue on the new tire and wait 20 minutes and apply another coat and mount tire. Do my rolling and centering technique, inflate to 120psi and let that tire sit overnight until the next day. That tire sat overnight and will be ready to shred the next morning.

.................

It literally takes me 30min to glue/center a new tire after a flat.

The key to tubulars, is to buy good ones. I love Veloflex tires. If your bike can fit Vlaanderen's, then it would be the only tire I would recommend. It rolls super fast and the durability is beyond anything I've ever ridden. Ridden through glass, dirt, staples, etc.. The tire kicks ass!

[redir]

Do you think a 30 year old tubular would still hold air?

Most certainly yes especially if they were stored properly. I have some Veloflex tubulars mounted on my '83 Guerciotti that came from the 80's. I bought them last year from a guy who used to race in the 80's and now builds guitars for a living. We were having a causual hat about guitars when the topic of bike racing came up and he said he thought he had a box full of tubulars... Score!

SOme of them were dry rotted though so it's possible they are junk. Try it and see, I would not be surprised if they are perfectly fine.

[m4rk540]

Paceline, the kind of place where the 872 riders worldwide who ride tubulars can post about their superiority.

Back in the day, I won a race on a flat tubular. It was down to about 12psi and I was in a 3 man breakaway. I sprinted on the thing and took the W by about 4 bike lengths. True story.

[denapista]

Paceline, the kind of place where the 872 riders worldwide who ride tubulars can post about their superiority.

Back in the day, I won a race on a flat tubular. It was down to about 12psi and I was in a 3 man breakaway. I sprinted on the thing and took the W by about 4 bike lengths. True story.

I just think we're trying to debunk the constant attacks on riding tubulars. The process is way over exaggerated on the interwebs.

[m4rk540]

I'm risk averse and the thought of losing a tire on a descent should keep me on tubulars. Yet, and I don't have any empirical evidence, the idea of a tire which needs a chemical to be installed goes against my current small footprint approach to life. Recently, I rode a friend's S-Works Tarmac Sl6 on Turbo Cottons. Those tires destroy the tubulars are more supple argument.

[redir]

I don't put chemicals in my Tubular tires. I did try it and all it does is make a mess and it will eventually harden up and then you have a hard chunk in your tire. That and it can glue the valve shut.

[teleguy57]

http://www.challengetech.it/products/mtb/en

edited to add: If you haven't yet, riding tubulars on gravel rides are awesome. Better than tubeless by far.

So I'm a dyed-in-the-wool tubular guy andmoving into the all road/disc world . Have a new set of Bora One tubular disc for my road wheels and have been thinking of a foray into tubeless for for dirt/mixed/gravel.
But it tubulars are good for gravel i would forgo the foray....What tubulars are you riding?

Edited: wait, just realized the link is to Challenge. Per my comment on the other active thread on challenge tubeless -- ok then, no thank you very much...

I ride mostly tubulars on shallow (32 - 38) carbon rims, this will be year 3 on one set that has Corsa Elites mounted and I see no reason to re-glue since they are still tightly adhered. Gluing is easy and the ride is great.

I am having a set of Carbon clinchers being built as I write this, the wheelbuilder had to have his arm twisted, but he finally relented.;):banana::banana:

Hot did you get OldPotatoe to cave?:beer:

[zlin]

So I'm a dyed-in-the-wool tubular guy andmoving into the all road/disc world . Have a new set of Bora One tubular disc for my road wheels and have been thinking of a foray into tubeless for for dirt/mixed/gravel.
But it tubulars are good for gravel i would forgo the foray....What tubulars are you riding?

Edited: wait, just realized the link is to Challenge. Per my comment on the other active thread on challenge tubeless -- ok then, no thank you very much...


I ride these (http://www.challengetech.it/products/gravel/almanzo-pro-060/10612/en): zero issues on gravel or road or whatever.

[m4rk540]

I don't put chemicals in my Tubular tires. I did try it and all it does is make a mess and it will eventually harden up and then you have a hard chunk in your tire. That and it can glue the valve shut.

For me, rubber cement is a chemical and it doesn't pass the sniff test.

[denapista]

I'm risk averse and the thought of losing a tire on a descent should keep me on tubulars. Yet, and I don't have any empirical evidence, the idea of a tire which needs a chemical to be installed goes against my current small footprint approach to life. Recently, I rode a friend's S-Works Tarmac Sl6 on Turbo Cottons. Those tires destroy the tubulars are more supple argument.

Turbo cotton tires are from what I hear, some of the best clinchers out there. I think they're making them in Tubular now...

I equate durability to one thing only, FLATS! Show me someone on a clincher that hasn't flatted in 8-9 months of riding....

[KarlC]

All the stretching and gluing and waiting for tubulars is not made up for by the marginally superior weight/acceleration/float/etc. I might feel on the very best $$$$ tub. Flatting on the road requires fixing the new tire and then doing it all over again, properly, once I get home. And riding with dirty sticky fingers is distracting.

All the mess and mess and mess of tubeless is not made up for by the uh, well, let's see... by the, um, hmm.... Flatting in the woods requires probably using the emergency innertube in my bag anyway. And then making a big sticky mess getting the tire fixed once I get back home.

Clinchers are simple, they work great and feel as good as tubulars for the short portion of my rides where, "my tires feel so," is even a thought I might have.

I haven't had a flat in years on my commuter clincher Schwalbe Marathon Supreme's. They wear down to slicks before they flat. I have the rare road flat on the various brands on my road bikes, but once it's fixed, it's done.

Tubulars are great, but they peaked in the late 70's or 80's imho, because clinchers and inner tubes (and clincher wheels) have gotten so good and are factors easier to use for DIYers.

This just makes me think that some people have no real recent experience with tubulars or never really gave them a try.

Dont get me wrong I understand how people feel this way, I feel the same way, but I feel that way about clinchers.

I dont really know anything about clinchers, so to me buying, mounting and using them looks to be a PAIN. All the guys I ride with have WAY more issues with their clinchers that I ever do, so I just look at them and think why, why would you put up with that, what a pain.

Im not here to convert anyone to Tubulars, it would just be nice if some of the false info was but to bed. Like ........

Flatting on the road requires fixing the new tire and then doing it all over again, properly, once I get home. And riding with dirty sticky fingers is distracting.

First off I flat way way less that my clinchers buddies, when I do have an issue 1 or 2 things happen. 1 its sealed up on it own in a split second and I might never know it happened. 2 its worse, so I pull over and use Pit Stop to fix the leak and air it up at the same time, Im back going again before my clincher buddy even has his tire off. I keep riding that same tire until its dead, there is no reason to change the tire when I get home.

.... I might feel on the very best $$$$ tub.

Also why does everyone think tubular tires are $$$, you can by the very best for $50 - $60 delivered to your door. Are the best clinchers and tubes that much less ???

.........
Tubulars are great, but they peaked in the late 70's or 80's imho, because clinchers and inner tubes (and clincher wheels) have gotten so good and are factors easier to use for DIYers.

Also why do people think tubulars, the whole process, stretching and gluing and waiting, and the tires themselves where stuck back in the late 70's or 80's ??? And that only clinchers have improved ???

Its confusing :confused:


.

[hollowgram5]

I ride these (http://www.challengetech.it/products/gravel/almanzo-pro-060/10612/en): zero issues on gravel or road or whatever.The 36 Strada Bianca Pros have me intrigued as well. Mighty plump!

[Clean39T]

The 36 Strada Bianca Pros have me intrigued as well. Mighty plump!

Same. I'm off to hunt some gravel/29er hoops...

[bikinchris]

Turbo cotton tires are from what I hear, some of the best clinchers out there. I think they're making them in Tubular now...

I equate durability to one thing only, FLATS! Show me someone on a clincher that hasn't flatted in 8-9 months of riding....

How about 10 years without a flat? And before that, I only got flats because i rode badly worn out tires.

[R3awak3n]

How about 10 years without a flat? And before that, I only got flats because i rode badly worn out tires.

what tires? and where the hell are you ridding?

[Mark McM]

Not to start a debate but to you have any known and generally agreed upon examples or facts to back these points up ?

About which part of it? That tubulars have more rolling resistance than otherwise similar clinchers has been known for decades, and been demonstrated in many rolling resistance tests. Here's a Velonew article from 2007 in which the greater rolling resistance of tubulars discussed, and there is also discussion of a test in which, even when climbing, a set of wheels with clincher tires went faster than a set of tubular wheels, when ridden at the same power - even though the clincher wheels were 1 lb. heavier:

https://www.velonews.com/2007/06/bikes-and-tech/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-rolling-resistance_12493

The above article also has a link to a BikeTechReview discussion which shows that wheel rotational weight matters very little (even when accelerating). Which means that the lower weight of tubular wheels makes little difference in performance, and the difference in rolling resistance has a greater impact.

We recently discussed some rolling resistance tests from the BicycleRollingResistance.com web site. This site has tested some Vittoria tires that are available in both tubular and clincher versions. The clincher versions all have lower rolling resistance. Notably, these tests usually use heavy butyl tubes in the clincher tires (even though other tests on the site show that latex tubes are faster). Even when comparing the clincher version of tire with a butyl tube to a tubular which uses a latex innertube, the clincher version is still faster:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

A quick google search will find multiple other tests showing clinchers have lower rolling resistances.

I'm sure you can dig up some weights of comparable clincher and tubular wheels at manufacturer sites. You'll find that the clinchers are typically 50-100g per wheel heavier. Likewise, I'm sure that you can dig up some comparable tires and tubes, and you'll find a clincher tire plus a tube is within grams of the weight of a comparable tubular tire (be sure the comparison uses the same type of tube for the clincher that is in the tubular). Below is a link an on-line cycling performance analysis tool that you can plug the weights and rolling resistance values into to see the difference in performance in a variety of different scenarios. I think you'll find that the only place the tubulars offer a performance advantage is up steep hills (where rolling resistance is small because the speeds are low, and weight differences matter more):

https://analyticcycling.com/

Sometimes people ask, "if clinchers perform better, why do pros still use tubulars?" Partly it is for historical reasons, and partly it is because the ability to ride a flat tubular can mitigate their slightly lower rolling performance. But pros don't always use tubulars - the place that clinchers make the biggest difference is in time trials, and many pros now do time trials on clinchers (ask Tony Martin - he's won 4 World Championships on clincher tires).





As an example most guys I know that ride A LOT dont see the need to carry a spare tubular tire these days. Instead they carry something like orange seal ........

Some times a tire cuts are too large to seal with sealant. Clincher tires can be easily booted in this case, but for tubular you'd need a spare tire. I've booted clinchers several times, allowing me to finish a ride, but for tubulars you'd need a new tire. What's our plan for these situations?

[bikinchris]

what tires? and where the hell are you ridding?

I have gone several sets of tires without a flat. My only secrets are to make sure the tires are inflated correctly and inspecting them for glass etc. after rides. It's a touring bike and a tandem so it has Continental Gatorskins. I have ridden the same tires in Louisiana, Maryland, Arkansas, Michigan, Netherlands and France.

[m4rk540]

Then don't use them..I see no compelling reason to own any clinchers..all I own are tubulars..

"wear more quickly"..ahh. no..a lot of 'open' clincher casings re the same as the tubular..so 4 to 4..a draw!!:)

Did you charge the same to replace a tubular as a clincher for those who can't fix their own flats? Around here shops charge $30, not including glue, for tubulars and $15 for clinchers. Most of the guys I ride with gave up on tubulars when shops doubled their fees.

[mcteague]

Turbo cotton tires are from what I hear, some of the best clinchers out there. I think they're making them in Tubular now...

I equate durability to one thing only, FLATS! Show me someone on a clincher that hasn't flatted in 8-9 months of riding....

I did just under 5k miles last year, on Michelin Pro4s, and did not get any flats.

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

Most people that complain of gluing, have never done so... I've been on the same set of Veloflex Vlaanderen tires for close to a year now. My clincher friends have been through so many tubes in that time. Factor in the cost of tubes to my set of tires that have yet to flatten once....

Did we all not learn how to glue as kids? It's pretty damn easy. If you flat, you're done for the day. Come home, glue up another tire and mount it. Ready to ride the next day. If you're on a long ride, carry a spare in a cut water bottle in your cage, to alleviate the ugly look under the saddle. If you're concerned about water, then buy a larger water bottle to carry and use the other cage for your spare. I've ridden home 30-40mi on a spare once and it was a bitch to get the spare off. So that's how good a spare is with a little glue on it...

I attribute tubular fear to the internet and old techniques in gluing that are all over the internet from Zipp, etc. It does not take 2 full days to glue tires. I glue mount and wait til the next morning to ride. Do you think Pro mechanics are waiting 48 hours to let glue cure? Two light coats, mount and let sit until the next day before your ride...

I would never buy a race car and put crappy tires on it. Porsche, Lambo, etc all develop their cars with tires in mind. If you can show me a clincher tire that can equate ride quality and durability to a Veloflex Vlaanderen, or Veloflex Record then....

Ahhgeez, it's not ugly if you do it right.

Yup, some of the BS about the really simple task of gluing on a tubie is amazing..I've read about a Armstrong mechanic(Julian Devries..SP?), that took 3-4 days to glue on one set of tires..really silly.

Tubies have real advantages. Most who whine about them have have never used, or glued..and if they had, it was 3 decades ago.

There is another thread here about ANOTHER wee 'horror' story about tubeless, the mess, the goop everywhere, the big cut in tire, gotta call for help..etc..see this quite often here and on other bikie forums. So gotta wonder why mess with tubeless..MTB, you betcha, road bike..:cool:

[oldpotatoe]

This just makes me think that some people have no real recent experience with tubulars or never really gave them a try.

Dont get me wrong I understand how people feel this way, I feel the same way, but I feel that way about clinchers.

I dont really know anything about clinchers, so to me buying, mounting and using them looks to be a PAIN. All the guys I ride with have WAY more issues with their clinchers that I ever do, so I just look at them and think why, why would you put up with that, what a pain.

Im not here to convert anyone to Tubulars, it would just be nice if some of the false info was but to bed. Like ........



First off I flat way way less that my clinchers buddies, when I do have an issue 1 or 2 things happen. 1 its sealed up on it own in a split second and I might never know it happened. 2 its worse, so I pull over and use Pit Stop to fix the leak and air it up at the same time, Im back going again before my clincher buddy even has his tire off. I keep riding that same tire until its dead, there is no reason to change the tire when I get home.



Also why does everyone think tubular tires are $$$, you can by the very best for $50 - $60 delivered to your door. Are the best clinchers and tubes that much less ???



Also why do people think tubulars, the whole process, stretching and gluing and waiting, and the tires themselves where stuck back in the late 70's or 80's ??? And that only clinchers have improved ???

Its confusing :confused:


.


well said..lotsa of old, misinformation out there. I see NO compelling reason to use tubeless or clinchers.

[Imaking20]

Rim brakes and tubulars are sooooooo bad. And so last decade. I'll take them off your hands for cheap :)

[unterhausen]

to be fair, clinchers had a lot more room to improve. What has improved about tubulars since then? Going away from silk?

[Lionel]

Tubulars are not popular. Oh well. I don't care. Getting ready for Roubaix.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7812/47125348382_b1cfc92b2f_h.jpg

[grognaak]

I am a bike snob and thought about trying tubular tires in the future, but such a switch would not make sense for my use case IMO: non-professional road enthusiast.

[Gummee]

I am a bike snob and thought about trying tubular tires in the future, but such a switch would not make sense for my use case IMO: non-professional road enthusiast.

I'm old, fat,and slow and I still have 4-5 sets of tubulars. 1 is exclusively for gravel riding.

There's a difference in the ride that's just magical

M

[rwsaunders]

I am a bike snob and thought about trying tubular tires in the future, but such a switch would not make sense for my use case IMO: non-professional road enthusiast.

If you're a true bike snob, then you owe it to yourself to try tubbies and dancing bananas. :banana:

[RWeb]

I switched to tubulars about 5 years ago. I should have tried them sooner. I won’t ever go back to clinchers. Tubulars are superior to clinchers in so many ways.

[m4rk540]

Paceline, the kind of place where people who drink single malt try to convince you it's better than Bordeaux (or Bourbon).

[Vientomas]

I am a bike snob and thought about trying tubular tires in the future, but such a switch would not make sense for my use case IMO: non-professional road enthusiast.

True bike snobs ride nothing but tubulars! :banana:

[unterhausen]

I don't think you can really call yourself a bike snob if you don't ride tubulars. Don't words have meaning anymore?

[ultraman6970]

I'm a snob??? Did not know that :)

Tubulars are popular between the people that knows better :D



True bike snobs ride nothing but tubulars! :banana:

[R3awak3n]

I have gone several sets of tires without a flat. My only secrets are to make sure the tires are inflated correctly and inspecting them for glass etc. after rides. It's a touring bike and a tandem so it has Continental Gatorskins. I have ridden the same tires in Louisiana, Maryland, Arkansas, Michigan, Netherlands and France.

Ok but gatorskins are not tires, they are garden hoses. Probably one of the worst ridding tires out there. Sure they dont flat but they ride so bad I rather take the flat every once in a while to be honest

Ahhgeez, it's not ugly if you do it right.

Yup, some of the BS about the really simple task of gluing on a tubie is amazing..I've read about a Armstrong mechanic(Julian Devries..SP?), that took 3-4 days to glue on one set of tires..really silly.

Tubies have real advantages. Most who whine about them have have never used, or glued..and if they had, it was 3 decades ago.

There is another thread here about ANOTHER wee 'horror' story about tubeless, the mess, the goop everywhere, the big cut in tire, gotta call for help..etc..see this quite often here and on other bikie forums. So gotta wonder why mess with tubeless..MTB, you betcha, road bike..:cool:

You say people that dont like tubulars because they never tried them but have you ever tried tubeless?

[oldpotatoe]

to be fair, clinchers had a lot more room to improve. What has improved about tubulars since then? Going away from silk?

Ya know, the people that make clinchers also make tubulars..as the clinchers improve, so do the tubulars..along with the other advantages of tubulars already mentioned that the basic design of the clincher cannot duplicate.

[oldpotatoe]

Ok but gatorskins are not tires, they are garden hoses. Probably one of the worst ridding tires out there. Sure they dont flat but they ride so bad I rather take the flat every once in a while to be honest

You say people that dont like tubulars because they never tried them but have you ever tried tubeless?

In the shop we had a few MOOTS demos that were road tubeless(and Disc brake too-YIKES)...rode one for a day..a great big 'meh' when compared to my Vamoots with tubulars(and rim brakes...:eek:)..BTW-I set that bike up..wasn't impossible(we had a compressor)...but certainly no easier than gluing on a tubular...goop and all..BUT the 'ride' wasn't all oooo-ahhh, stars, roses, and a rainbow breaking thru the clouds...

[saab2000]

Good tubulars haven't really changed much since I got into cycling.

The best tires of note (other than extremely rare and expensive silk tires) was the Vittoria CX when I got into the sport in the early 1980s. It was the one to have.

Subsequently, production was moved to Thailand and my sources told me the old Vittoria folks in Italy started Veloflex, which I still consider to be the gold standard of accessible tubulars.

And I don't think there's much difference between a Veloflex Criterium and the old Vittoria CX I remember from the 1980s and 1990s.

To me they are the gold standard and not much has changed because in my opinion, not much needed to change.

Clinchers have improved but I'm still using the clincher version of these tires, but in Vittoria branding. Cotton clincher and a wider rim and lower pressure and the difference to my hands and butt is truly minimal.

I have one set of tubulars left in my fleet. All the rest are gone, but my Giant is still outfitted with some ENVE 45 tubulars.

[R3awak3n]

In the shop we had a few MOOTS demos that were road tubeless(and Disc brake too-YIKES)...rode one for a day..a great big 'meh' when compared to my Vamoots with tubulars(and rim brakes...:eek:)..BTW-I set that bike up..wasn't impossible(we had a compressor)...but certainly no easier than gluing on a tubular...goop and all..BUT the 'ride' wasn't all oooo-ahhh, stars, roses, and a rainbow breaking thru the clouds...

tubeless tech has changed, there are a lot better tires now... in terms of ehhhh suppleness.

I have never used tubulars so I cannot say which one is easier, I just set up 2 pairs of tubeless tires yesterday, took me about 10-15 minutes per tire, without a compressor. With a compressor it could probably be done in 5 minutes.

I don't think the ride of tubeless is any better than clincher, at least I have not noticed it, however for dirt and stones and stuff like that you can lower your pressure and not get snake bites and that is where it is good at. I know tubular does that too but not as many tires now a days in big sizes (650x47mm).

I am not saying tubular is bad, I have never tried it so it would be dishonest to have an opinion on it but tubeless is pretty damn good and not that hard to setup if you have a bit of patience (I think its like tubular, if you have no patience, its not for you because its not just put a tube and go out but in the end it pays off when you don't have as many flats).

Also I think some tires are hard to set up tubeless and that is where people are getting the, omg this is impossible to set up... but look, those challenge tires I had were impossible to set up tubed and when I tried tubeless there was sealant boiling over in the beads, what a mess. The new tires I just put on, there was not a single bit of sealant that came out... tires kept air in even without the sealant so ymmv with tubeless since it is all over the place.


I will try a tubular one day and see what it is all about

[AngryScientist]

i still regularly ride tubulars, but admit that the bulk of my riding is on clinchers.

i think the gap in ride quality is now closed, or pretty damned close.

i keep talking about them because i like them so much, but skinwall vitoria corsa G+ tires with latex tubes are so good that it would be hard to tell the difference to a set of good veloflex tubulars in a blind test.

to get to the original question (which i realize this thread is now over a year old...) -

i think one thing that is making tubular less popular is the overall trend towards wider tires and wider clearance frames. the advantages of a good tubular in 23c over a clincher are much more obvious. once you get to "gravel" tires pushing over 32c, all bets are off, and there really arent any FAT tubulars out there anyway, beyond CX tires.

this is all good news for us regular cyclists though. i totally see why some of the older crowd here preferred tubulars. if you look at a good clincher tire from the 80's or 90's and compare it to a top clincher tire from today, there is a night and day difference. just holding it in your hand you can see the new stuff is SO much nicer than what was available a few decades ago, for sure.

all that new technology with regard to tire development, from 25c racing tires to the compass super supple fat tire offerings, to excellent all terrain tires - this is all great for every one of us. we all benefit from better tires, no matter what set-up you choose.

[rwsaunders]

Not to mention that not too many folks are likely to be willing to experiment with $200-300 on a used set of tubular wheels and $100-120 on a pair of tubular tires to find out if they like the experience or not. I feel the same way about a tubeless setup.

[oldpotatoe]

I have never used tubulars

ahhh...:)
however for dirt and stones and stuff like that you can lower your pressure and not get snake bites and that is where it is good at. I know tubular does that too but not as many tires now a days in big sizes (650x47mm).

Correct, MTB too, BUT I think this 'discussion' was about road tubeless and even on rocky ground, 32mm tubies(which are used just about 100% of the time in 'cross/pros) work well w/o pinch flats(and no burps either->:))
I am not saying tubular is bad, I have never tried it so it would be dishonest to have an opinion on it but tubeless is pretty damn good

Yup, just in certain applications, like road wheels....tubulars are 'pretty damn good' also, with little 'payback'.
Also I think some tires are hard to set up tubeless and that is where people are getting the, omg this is impossible to set up... but look, those challenge tires I had were impossible to set up tubed and when I tried tubeless there was sealant boiling over in the beads, what a mess. The new tires I just put on, there was not a single bit of sealant that came out... tires kept air in even without the sealant so ymmv with tubeless since it is all over the place.

Yup, kinda same for tubulars except these days, just about 100% of tubulars, unless a QC problem, not a design problem, go on all the same.
Tubeless 'standards? How many are there? And even tho 'tubeless' is 15 years old..Challenge..
As far as industry-wide standards for tubeless on road, cyclocross, or gravel bikes go, the situation is somewhat bleak. Hutchinson and Shimano introduced a proper road tubeless standard back in 2006, but it’s essentially been abandoned by the rest of the industry. Other road tubeless adopters have instead developed their own various tubeless systems, with little-to-no cooperation among relevant parties. As a result, some combinations fit too tightly, while others may be questionably loose.

[Lionel]

I ride tubular exclusively on the road but I have stopped trying to convince other people to do that.


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[slinkywizard]

Tubulars are not popular. Oh well. I don't care. Getting ready for Roubaix


My choice as well when I did PR...excellent tire, very comfortable at 4.5 bar, no flats as opposed to those riding clinchers

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190224/6f0b8e1e8bf3b71fc5f5aad2b119fed5.jpg


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[mcteague]

My choice as well when I did PR...excellent tire, very comfortable at 4.5 bar, no flats as opposed to those riding clinchers




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Other than pinch flats, how would tubulars be better at flat prevention than an equal quality clincher tire? :confused:

Tim

[slinkywizard]

Other than pinch flats, how would tubulars be better at flat prevention than an equal quality clincher tire? :confused:



Tim



Pinch flats are exactly the issue in Paris-Roubaix...going doen to 4.5 bar will guarantee many of those when riding 50+ km’s of pavé on clinchers


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[oldpotatoe]

I ride tubular exclusively on the road but I have stopped trying to convince other people to do that.


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Good call........no kidding.

For mcTeague above, the vast majority of flats I fixed in the shop on clinchers were pinch flats.