Moots and Spectrum

[crf]

I was just interested in the differences between these two Titanium frame builders (I know that Spectrum is outsourced to Merlin). They're top notch from what I read, but how would one differentiate between them in performance?

[chrisroph]

both excellent construction, moots, solid standarg geo, spectrum, full custom geo, tk design and paint, tk spec'd tubes.

[CNY rider]

If you get the Spectrum you get input from Tom Kellogg. That would be enough to sway me.

[swoop]

tom kellogg is what makes spectrum the experience that it is. he is a tremendously sexy man and has sexy things to say and he thinks sexy bike thoughts.

let him have his way with you.

[coylifut]

fantastic bikes both of em. the first moots i saw was at the state crit championships and it inspired me to get my spectrum. the differences are subtle at best. the spectrum comes clear coated and painted which keeps it nice and clean while avoiding that finger prints all over the stainless steel refrigerator look.

[Fixed]

t.k.'s a bro that is enough for me
he even finds time to chat with me
cheers

[Ray]

Since the OP question was mostly about performance, I'll reiterate what others have said. Moots has a stock geometry and, if it works for you, you're good. Probably quicker delivery too? But with Spectrum you get the full TK custom fit, which makes (made) it a no brainer for me. Tom's been fitting people a long time and seems to have a feel for it (this is understatement along the lines of "Bush isn't the most self-critical president we've ever had"). I have two of 'em and they handle so much better than anything else I've ever been on its just not funny. And I'm a fairly slow tourist. There are equally pleased Spectrum owners from the full-on race side of the forum, so Tom knows how to design for the rider, regardless of the kind of rider.

Get the Spectrum - you won't be disappointed. Or get a Serotta - I hear they do pretty nice work too ( :cool: ), but that wasn't your question.

-Ray

[Kevan]

tom kellogg is what makes spectrum the experience that it is. he is a tremendously sexy man and has sexy things to say and he thinks sexy bike thoughts.

let him have his way with you.

It's all done in a barn.


NOT that there's anything wrong with that!

[Steve Hampsten]

Moots does custom, too.

Just sayin'.

Tom is a great guy.

[manet]

Reconstructed cross section of the timber framed barn built by Abbot Moot c.1400.

[Archibald]

Moots does custom, too.

Just sayin'.

Tom is a great guy.
All true.

Personalities aside, when it comes down to just construction, Moots is the standard against which all other Ti bikes are judged. Every Ti builder I've ever met aspires to match them; for some it's a dream, for others, a nightmare.

[Needs Help]

I know that Spectrum is outsourced to Merlin
I don't know if that is quite accurate. From what I've read, Tom Kellog is intimately connected with Merlin as a consultant/engineer/whatever. Second, I think the welding is done differently for Spectrum frames, so you might say it's custom welding. And, as mentioned above, each tube for the frame is handpicked by Tom with respect to gauge, wall thickness, butting, etc. to produce the ride characteristics he designed into the frame.

So, in reality, I think it's more like Tom has specific skilled welders that use Merlin's equipment to join the tubes together using a unique process (which he invented?), with the specific tubes he has picked, and then the frame is sent back to him.

[swoop]

I don't know if that is quite accurate. From what I've read, Tom Kellog is intimately connected with Merlin as a consultant/engineer/whatever. Second, I think the welding is done differently for Spectrum frames, so you might say it's custom welding. And, as mentioned above, each tube for the frame is handpicked by Tom with respect to gauge, wall thickness, butting, etc. to produce the ride characteristics he designed into the frame.

So, in reality, I think it's more like Tom has specific skilled welders that use Merlin's equipment to join the tubes together using a unique process (which he invented?), with the specific tubes he has picked, and then the frame is sent back to him.

i believe he hand selected the best merlin dudes and has them do things his way in a separate area. he is easy to get hold of.. in fact all parties involved can be talked to!

[Ray]

i believe he hand selected the best merlin dudes and has them do things his way in a separate area. he is easy to get hold of.. in fact all parties involved can be talked to!
For ti, Merlin does the construction, with every detail to Tom's spec. Don't know if it's a separate team or not, but the work is just fine - don't know if it's quite up to Moots's standard. Tom does the paint and finish work, which is up to any standard, possibly just shy of Joe Bell, but not much and maybe not. For steel, Jeff (Tom's right-hand-man / partner in the business I think also) does the brazing right in the barn, also to Tom's spec. Again, Tom does the paint and finish work. The key point is that Tom does the fitting and the design for every frame. I believe that's what makes the frames so frickin' great. Lots of people build well - fewer fit and design well, at least THIS well.

-Ray

[Ken Robb]

another way to get a custom Moots is to order a custom Hampsten--I'm just saying--and then you can get it painted beautifully too if you don't want the nekkid ti look. My Legend is half/half and I think it's gorgeous too.
So many wonderful choices.

[Jeff N.]

As mentioned above, Moots does custom (for a slight upcharge), but it's best if you already have the numbers to give them. Moots welds are the very best in the business, to be sure (I've heard the term, "...like they're welded by the hand of God". The weld work really is THAT good).
I don't own a Spectrum but I've seen several and they're every bit the bike their owners talk about. Beautiful frames. Jeff N.

[chrisroph]

i believe he hand selected the best merlin dudes and has them do things his way in a separate area. he is easy to get hold of.. in fact all parties involved can be talked to!

TK told me that he has one selected merlin guy who does all of the welding, which is exquisite on my frame. My frame was one of the last batch built by Eddie, a fellow who unfortunately passed away of a heart attack while my batch was at the barn for paint. TK was really shaken by the event. Eddie had a family.

Since the show must go, whild my frame was in for paint, TK was examining weld samples to see who he was going to select to build his future ti frames.

[rePhil]

I am fortunate to fit on a off the peg Moots. The specs are identical to my custom Strong. Both are "lifetime" frames for me.I will never willingly part with either one.
I like the industrial finish on the Moots.The welds are second to none. I like the way it rides, and the way it fits....ME.
I have never heard an unkind word about TK. I am certain his bikes are superb.
You wouldn't go wrong with either one.

[manet]

ya'll do realize that them welds that viagra'ze you and your frame are done with the help of a pulse welder, non?

[05Fierte TI]

Pulse Welder? What does that mean? Good, Bad or just different. How is that different than other ti welding? How does it influence the final product? I have almost no experience with welding myself.

[Archibald]

ya'll do realize that them welds that viagra'ze you and your frame are done with the help of a pulse welder, non?
A little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing. :crap:

[PK9]

I don't know from pulse welds, but I DO have a Moots and it is an exquisitely balanced bicycle which a) fits me perfectly, b) handles beautifully, and c) is an absolute joy to ride.

I've never ridden a Spectrum, but I've heard great things about them and Mr. Kellog.

[Archibald]

Pulse Welder? What does that mean? Good, Bad or just different. How is that different than other ti welding? How does it influence the final product? I have almost no experience with welding myself.I don't know why Manet said "made with a pulse welder" like it's an accusation.

No such thing as a "pulse welder", per se. There are pulsers, which are either added to, or built into, welding machines which articificially varies the weld current while welding. Usually follows a sine wave pattern, with the current ramping up to peak amperage, then ramping down to a background amperage as a percentage of the peak before ramping up again. The time/hertz of the pulse, and on some machines even the shape of the wave, can be controlled by the welder within a certain range.

The principle advantage a pulser gives in "reality" is it acts as a metronome for the welder, a timing device to help the welder maintain a constant progression speed and temperature management of the weld puddle while he feeds the filler material. Without a pulser, the welder varies the puddle temp and travel speed with the filler rod alone or some use the foot pedal in addition, but that is largely unnecessary for most applications. Before there were pulsers, everybody "pulsed" using the filler metal. You can't tell the difference between a pulsed weld or a non-pulsed weld with skilled welders. That said, most builders, regardless of size or manufacturing capacity use pulsers these days.

The point of bringing it all up is still lost on me. :confused:

[manet]

accusation? no, no, no.
just a head banger _ honest.





I don't know why Manet said "made with a pulse welder" like it's an accusation.

....

The point of bringing it all up is still lost on me. :confused:


"made with the help of a pulse welder"

[BumbleBeeDave]

tom kellogg is what makes spectrum the experience that it is. he is a tremendously sexy man and has sexy things to say and he thinks sexy bike thoughts.

let him have his way with you.

. . . makes absolutely KILLER ribs and sauce and perhaps, just MAYBE he will make you some if you agree to buy a bike from him! ;)

(But don't tell him I told you. He's STILL trying to figure out who stole all the ribs from Smiley's party . . . )

BBD

[coylifut]

what makes the Moots weld so special? i was looking at my spectrum and I couldn't see a weld at all, just two tubes joined together.

[Archibald]

accusation? no, no, no.
just a head banger _ honest.

"made with the help of a pulse welder"
So again, what's your point? Do you think Litespeed/Merlin doesn't use pulsers on their machines? Don't be shy, say what you want to say. :beer:

[manet]

So again, what's your point? Do you think Litespeed/Merlin doesn't use pulsers on their machines? Don't be shy, say what you want to say. :beer:

... that it is not just a hand n' stick skill process that stacks the coins, forms the shingles _ the pedal and the pulse(ing) share equally in the look.

merlin/litespeed _ sure. if you're connoting i was somehow doing the litespeed sucks dance, well that ain't the case. my little lamp was shining it's 5 watts on the ti welding process, not a specific company's.

[Archibald]

what makes the Moots weld so special? i was looking at my spectrum and I couldn't see a weld at all, just two tubes joined together.
What makes them so special is the near perfection they (and by they, I'm talking about their A welder(s)) consistently attain without brushing or blending the weld beads, or painting over them.

If you can't see the welds on your bike, then it's either under the paint, or they've been blended in by brushing or sanding.

I don't wish to be misunderstood here. I'm not saying Spectrum's, Merlins, Sevens, or anyone elses frames aren't quality products or competently joined or that Moots are the best bikes to roll down a road. What I am saying is that there are only a handful of people in the world that can lay down a 6G weld like you see on a Moots and even that is not worthy of drawn out discussion. What is worthy is how they consistently produce at this level of the craft and the difficulty of selecting & training the personal to do it that makes it so worthy of comment. You have to want and strive to do your absolute best every time to weld like this. Most can never achieve it.

http://mtbr.com/author/moots/Moots-BB-Shell-Welds.jpg

[coylifut]

What makes them so special is the near perfection they (and by they, I'm talking about their A welder(s)) consistently attain without brushing or blending the weld beads, or painting over them.

If you can't see the welds on your bike, then it's either under the paint, or they've been blended in by brushing or sanding.

I don't wish to be misunderstood here. I'm not saying Spectrum's, Merlins, Sevens, or anyone elses frames aren't quality products or competently joined or that Moots are the best bikes to roll down a road. What I am saying is that there are only a handful of people in the world that can lay down a 6G weld you see on a Moots and even that is not worthy of drawn out discussion. What is worthy is how they consistently produce at this level of the craft and the difficulty of selecting & training the personal to do it that makes it so worthy of comment. You have to want and strive to do your absolute best every time to weld like this. Most can never achieve it.

http://mtbr.com/author/moots/Moots-BB-Shell-Welds.jpg

cool. thanks

[Archibald]

... that it is not just a hand + stick skill process stacking the coins, forming the shingles _ the pedal and the pulse(ing) share equally in the look.

merlin/litespeed _ sure. if you're connoting i was somehow doing the litespeed sucks dance, well that ain't the case.
Still not feeling you, atmo.

You can do it either way, it's a technique you learn. Some guys are mashers. Some are pedalers. One is not a crutch, the other is not a negative.

[Too Tall]

PeachyArchy - Actually you are a bit off. A few months back when I got my Ti Spectrum I posted some very cropped pics of just the tube joints which are so smooth and lacking weld puddles that almost nobody guessed it was Ti. There is no point to this other than the fact Ti can be welded very very smooth without weld puddles and no mechanical smoothing or hiding imprefections under paint. Small even weld puddles are considered pleasing to look at for some because it shows mastery of the materials.

[Fat Robert]

this thread is silly

moots, merlin, spectrum are all great ti bikes

if you're fretting over how pretty the welds on your bike are, you've got more problems than said bike will solve


pick one of the three, buy it, ride it, ride it, ride it some more

[Fixed]

this thread is silly

moots, merlin, spectrum are all great ti bikes

if you're fretting over how pretty the welds on your bike are, you've got more problems than said bike will solve


pick one of the three, buy it, ride it, ride it, ride it some more


toche bro imho

[Archibald]

this thread is silly

moots, merlin, spectrum are all great ti bikes

if you're fretting over how pretty the welds on your bike are, you've got more problems than said bike will solve


pick one of the three, buy it, ride it, ride it, ride it some more
Not silly at all. How pretty the welds are isn't just about how pretty the welds are. Ask a lugged builder if he sweats what his lug shorelines look like. Pardon my pun. Sweating the details is the difference between a finely crafted bike and one made by Pacific. If we, and by we I mean people who purchase and ride finely crafted bicycles, didn't sweat the details, we'd all be riding Douglas's.

[Jeff N.]

What makes them so special is the near perfection they (and by they, I'm talking about their A welder(s)) consistently attain without brushing or blending the weld beads, or painting over them.

If you can't see the welds on your bike, then it's either under the paint, or they've been blended in by brushing or sanding.

I don't wish to be misunderstood here. I'm not saying Spectrum's, Merlins, Sevens, or anyone elses frames aren't quality products or competently joined or that Moots are the best bikes to roll down a road. What I am saying is that there are only a handful of people in the world that can lay down a 6G weld like you see on a Moots and even that is not worthy of drawn out discussion. What is worthy is how they consistently produce at this level of the craft and the difficulty of selecting & training the personal to do it that makes it so worthy of comment. You have to want and strive to do your absolute best every time to weld like this. Most can never achieve it.

http://mtbr.com/author/moots/Moots-BB-Shell-Welds.jpgNow that pic pretty much says it all, I'd say. Jeff N.

[Fat Robert]

archman, you know how a great bike is made, and I'm not going to make an arse out of myself getting into some stupid argument with you....

I'm just saying that I think its silly, because we're not talking about a finely made bike vs. a cheap mass-produced bike. we're talking about two great bikes and splitting hairs...I don't think its a point worth considering unless somebody just wants to brag about the welds to their buds.

if I'm an arse, I'm an arse...whatever....

[chrisroph]

archman, you know how a great bike is made, and I'm not going to make an arse out of myself getting into some stupid argument with you....

I'm just saying that I think its silly, because we're not talking about a finely made bike vs. a cheap mass-produced bike. we're talking about two great bikes and splitting hairs...I don't think its a point worth considering unless somebody just wants to brag about the welds to their buds.

if I'm an arse, I'm an arse...whatever....

this is no more stupid than talking about the shape of bars, c vs s, dt or ws spokes, etc.

[Archibald]

I'm just saying that I think its silly, because we're not talking about a finely made bike vs. a cheap mass-produced bike. we're talking about two great bikes and splitting hairs...I don't think its a point worth considering unless somebody just wants to brag about the welds to their buds.

if I'm an arse, I'm an arse...whatever....I don't make great bikes. I ride great bikes. I'm a rider.

Regardless, you're still not feeling me. It's not about whether a Moots or a Spectrum or Brand X is better than one another. Sheet, I don't know if I can explain it to anyone outside my own little clique. I tend to think of things in technical terms so I'm handicapped communicating this in a way that relays the intent.

Louis, help me out here.

[Archibald]

PeachyArchy - Actually you are a bit off. A few months back when I got my Ti Spectrum I posted some very cropped pics of just the tube joints which are so smooth and lacking weld puddles that almost nobody guessed it was Ti. There is no point to this other than the fact Ti can be welded very very smooth without weld puddles and no mechanical smoothing or hiding imprefections under paint. Small even weld puddles are considered pleasing to look at for some because it shows mastery of the materials.
Sorry Stretch, the weld is always discernable and if you can't discern it, it's been blended. Pulsed or no. Washed or no. Single pass or double pass. It's just the nature of the process.

[Fat Robert]

I don't make great bikes. I ride great bikes. I'm a rider.

Regardless, you're still not feeling me. It's not about whether a Moots or a Spectrum or Brand X is better than one another. Sheet, I don't know if I can explain it to anyone outside my own little clique. I tend to think of things in technical terms so I'm handicapped communicating this in a way that relays the intent.

Louis, help me out here.



I feel you -- for you, its a technical matter, an element of craft...I was thinking of how the thread started, with a consumer asking which bike he should buy, based on "build quality."

(dig my edit)

[Too Tall]

Got it straight from the stolenpeachunderground. I stand corrected.

ATNO

[Archibald]

I feel you -- for you, its a technical matter, an element of craft...I was thinking of how the thread started, with a consumer asking which bike he should buy, based on "build quality."

(dig my edit)
No, it's not just a technical element of the craft. I'm going to call on a better communicator to explain it.

[atmo]

I feel you -- for you, its a technical matter, an element of craft...I was thinking of how the thread started, with a consumer asking which bike he should buy, based on "build quality."

(dig my edit)
it's difficult to separate it all out, but yeah, the moots weld standard
is the ne plus ultra of the industry and has been for a long, long time.
the bead (if you will) is all the operator has to show his skill level. there
is no clean-up, no touch-ups, no "lug filing".

it's all very deer hunter cum one shot-esque atmo.

[Chris]

it's all very deer hunter cum one shot-esque atmo.

this is this

[zeroking17]

The movie Russian Ark is the cinematic equivalent of a Moots weld. The film is a 96-minute continous shot through a single, unblinking lens (that is, there are no cuts, no edits, no second passes).

What's even more remarkable is that the camera is in almost continual movement throughout the Hermitage museum in St. Petersburg, deftly making it way across numerous thresholds, tip-toeing through a whirling dance scene, and gliding around the stunning works painted by the old masters.

Not unlike the welding skills displayed on the Moots bottom bracket.

[atmo]

this is this
ChrisDaddySmooth atmo

[Fat Robert]

it's difficult to separate it all out, but yeah, the moots weld standard
is the ne plus ultra of the industry and has been for a long, long time.
the bead (if you will) is all the operator has to show his skill level. there
is no clean-up, no touch-ups, no "lug filing".

it's all very deer hunter cum one shot-esque atmo.


ok, the torch cats are in awe

[catulle]

The movie Russian Ark is the cinematic equivalent of a Moots weld. The film is a 96-minute continous shot through a single, unblinking lens (that is, there are no cuts, no edits, no second passes).

What's even more remarkable is that the camera is in almost continual movement throughout the Hermitage museum in St. Petersburg, deftly making it way across numerous thresholds, tip-toeing through a whirling dance scene, and gliding around the stunning works painted by the old masters.

Not unlike the welding skills displayed on the Moots bottom bracket.


.

[Serotta PETE]

Not silly at all. How pretty the welds are isn't just about how pretty the welds are. Ask a lugged builder if he sweats what his lug shorelines look like. Pardon my pun. Sweating the details is the difference between a finely crafted bike and one made by Pacific. If we, and by we I mean people who purchase and ride finely crafted bicycles, didn't sweat the details, we'd all be riding Douglas's.

I will match Serotta "weld" to any of the others. Additionally, the tubing does make a difference to quite a few, just as a custom fitting/sizing/build does. THis is not to take anything away from MOOTs but the welds I have seen over the years on Kellogg, Serotta, and MOOTS have all been excellent.

It is the fit and the ride that matter everyday (and yes the LOOKS are needed also) Lets go ride!!! :bike:

[nick0137]

I know a guy who looks like he knows what he's doing....

[malcolm]

I agree moots welds are the most asthetically pleasing, puddles are evenly spaced and I've never seen an undercut moots weld. I think Tom finishes the welds after he gets the bike from merlin ie: some version of sanding or filing to make them look more like a fillet braze sort of thing the tubes kinda flow together. No offense to serotta but I think they have the least attractive welds of the big Ti builders and I've owned several serottas and will probably own several more as I like the bikes and the company but just on welds alone my serotta welds didn't look as good and had several areas of very slight undercutting at the weld margins. I've never owned a moots but hope to, at least a ham-moots some day and I have my first spectrum arriving today and just sold a hors cat that I'm already regretting. I think the point is different strokes for different folks, moots focal point is the welds others not so much but moots, serotta and spectrum all build beautiful bikes that are strong and do their job wonderfully. And for what it is worth, in a life a long time ago I used to heli-arc (TIG) weld pipe, local 1098 fitters/welders.

[Archibald]

it's difficult to separate it all out, but yeah, the moots weld standard
is the ne plus ultra of the industry and has been for a long, long time.
the bead (if you will) is all the operator has to show his skill level. there
is no clean-up, no touch-ups, no "lug filing".

it's all very deer hunter cum one shot-esque atmo.
Bingo.

There is no lug filing, there is no crisp lug edge, there is no thinning, there is no paint. Every ounce of the builder's craft, his art, his thumbprint goes into, and becomes, that weld. That is why it's important. It can be the difference between a guy who "gets it" to use the forum parlance, and a guy who's just getting paid to show up & weld bike frames. That's not a slight at anybody, it's not a comparison, it's just an attempt at trying to explain why welds are worth talking about. It doesn't make one bike better than another. It is what it is. It can denote talent, it can denote experience, it can denote passion for the craft and if those aren't important, nothing is.

Let me introduce you to the absolute best "I gets it" welder in the biz today, he's the young guy on the left. His name is Brad. He is largely unknown but he has a huge Eddy Merckx sized talent. The other guy is worthy too, but not for welding.
http://www.singletrackworld.com/mod/submit/images/1041-16.jpg

[Jeff N.]

this is thisGotta get more bullits in the gun...

[Jeff N.]

I agree moots welds are the most asthetically pleasing, puddles are evenly spaced and I've never seen an undercut moots weld. I think Tom finishes the welds after he gets the bike from merlin ie: some version of sanding or filing to make them look more like a fillet braze sort of thing the tubes kinda flow together. No offense to serotta but I think they have the least attractive welds of the big Ti builders and I've owned several serottas and will probably own several more as I like the bikes and the company but just on welds alone my serotta welds didn't look as good and had several areas of very slight undercutting at the weld margins. I've never owned a moots but hope to, at least a ham-moots some day and I have my first spectrum arriving today and just sold a hors cat that I'm already regretting. I think the point is different strokes for different folks, moots focal point is the welds others not so much but moots, serotta and spectrum all build beautiful bikes that are strong and do their job wonderfully. And for what it is worth, in a life a long time ago I used to heli-arc (TIG) weld pipe, local 1098 fitters/welders.Agreed re: Serotta's welds. Crank-up-the-amps single pass. Jeff N.

[Dave B]

You guyys/gals ever seen those "Next" bikes at Walmart.....man those are nice!!!!

Tastes great......less filling.


Hey do you think people in wisconsin argue who has better colored orange cheese?


Cause we here in Indianapolis argue whihc corn kernel is more corny.

:D

[swoop]

u r ethier with me or u r against me.
you know, when someone has a preference over one bike more than another.. it is not a commentary on the lack of quality of the other bike.

moots are lovely. no more or less lovely than any beautiful crafted bike. given the choice between the two i woud choose spectrum. in a perfect world i would fly out to see tom mana a mano and have him 'do me' (hi tom, wink).
why, because that means something to me.

that is not a statement about the nice folks at moots. it's about my personal taste. these threads are all becoming mad painful (mp). ideally we're here because we have something to say, or learn or both.
if it's getting emotional for you.. i'd suggest you call me at my office and we can talk. just schedule an appointment on my voicemail.

if you are reacting to something here with so much anger or such rejection sensitivity.... there is some other stuff going on that merits looking at. the thing about the interweb is that it allows a certan amount of anonymity and deindividualtion. and that circunstance allows some primitave agresssive feelings to come out. it might be better to deal with those feelings at face value rather than as an arguement about the superficial apearance of tube joinery.

atmo.

oh and the beauty of atmo is that its self depricating. i'm not sure why something that is self depricating is such a threat to some folks.
if you don''t 'get' pegs or sachs.. it just means we don't have an aesthetic in common. that aesthetic says a lot about how one experiences things and puts thoughts together. it doesn't mean you're a moron or excluded.

now get your elbows off the table and put your crayons down and stop eating like a pig.

yehaw!

[Needs Help]

His name is Brad. He is largely unknown
Not to anyone who appreciates fine craftsmanship.

[Needs Help]

I agree moots welds are the most asthetically pleasing, puddles are evenly spaced and I've never seen an undercut moots weld. I think Tom finishes the welds after he gets the bike from merlin ie: some version of sanding or filing to make them look more like a fillet braze sort of thing the tubes kinda flow together. No offense to serotta but I think they have the least attractive welds of the big Ti builders and I've owned several serottas and will probably own several more as I like the bikes and the company but just on welds alone my serotta welds didn't look as good and had several areas of very slight undercutting at the weld margins. I've never owned a moots but hope to, at least a ham-moots some day and I have my first spectrum arriving today and just sold a hors cat that I'm already regretting. I think the point is different strokes for different folks, moots focal point is the welds others not so much but moots, serotta and spectrum all build beautiful bikes that are strong and do their job wonderfully. And for what it is worth, in a life a long time ago I used to heli-arc (TIG) weld pipe, local 1098 fitters/welders.
Ditto here.

[swoop]

i think the beauty of minimalism (and a naked ti bike is a minimalist peice of design) is that it focuses your attention on the details. little things like how the welds are puddled becomes what the visual experience of the bike is about. it's part of the appeal of nekked ti for me.
a raw ti bike is about tube shapes and welds, and proportions. it's just a different focus.
lugs for me are about mastery and craftsmanship.

stuff like that.

speaking of naked (i am). do you like my details?

atmo.

laffs.

[Tom Kellogg]

I may be of help here, but just a likely, I will just be poking at the hornets' nest...

First; there are very few Ti builders any more who do not make frames with welds that are not "good enough." i.e.. it is extraordinarily rare that Ti welds fail any more.

My choice to have the custom shop down at Merlin give us a smooth weld (not the stacked dime style) was entirely aesthetic. As a steel builder from the beginning, I just like the "fillet brazed" look. Any welder will tell you that whether you create a smooth puddle or a wave puddle, the structure is the same as long as you know what you are doing.

I will say that creating a smooth single pass weld is very difficult but that is not the reason that we use a double pass technique. Merlin's have always been double pass. The first reason was that back in the early days (19 years ago) Gwyn Jones did worry that a single pass would risk insufficient penetration. That fear has pretty much gone by the wayside, but the second reason still holds: A double pass technique makes it much easier to create more beautiful welds. For the most part, the first pass is a penetrating pass with a narrow but relatively tall pass right in the notch of the miter joint. The second pass usually does NOT add material, but is used to flow out or wash the first pass. This is the part where the appearance of the weld is created. If the first pass is not done exactly correctly though, the second pass will look like poo-poo. Just an example; since one wants a very flat weld on the sides of a main tube weld, the amount of penetrating filler laid down must be tiny relative to the amount of filler laid down under the down tube / head tube joint. Those wave lines can be created using a few different techniques, but when one is using a two pass technique, the usual way of getting the look is to use both the amperage pedal and actual torch hand movement in a somewhat "pulsing" manner. The skill involved is enormous! It exposes us silver solderers and brazers for the posers we are. One area that different welders' work varies a lot is the "softness" of the welds. Since I use the word to describe what I want in welds and that word is not a generally accepted term in the welding fraternity, I should explain. Weld softness is the degree to which it is possible to discern the interface between the weld bead and the tube. A "hard" edge is easy to see and a soft edge is almost impossible to see. OK, now for examples that we all have seen... A moots weld, while easy enough to see, has very soft edges. The weld just seems to disappear into the tubes it joins. Look at it this way, while molten, a Moots weld does not seem to have any surface tension unlike what a drop of water has on a Teflon surface. The tricks to a soft edge are: 1) a level of concentration that I will never achieve, and 2) more heat input than all but the finest welders can handle. The potential problem with that much heat in the hands of someone not in that exalted group is undercutting or blow through.

I guess that what I am getting at is a couple of things. First, even a mediocre Ti welder is good enough to make a perfectly good Ti frame. Second, the artistry that goes into a beautiful titanium weld is both a testament to an individual's skill and level of pride which is REQUIRED to create those welds. And yes, while I prefer the Spectrum style, I do believe that beyond style, the Moots welds are the most beautiful in this or any business. Hey, credit where credit is due. In fact, the folks at Moots could easily do smooth welds, but then we would have nothing to look at and admire. That is the exact reason that the folks at Merlin and Seven never chose to make the switch to smooth welds. They want us all to see them. He**, who can blame them. If you are good, you want folks to see it.

Finally, just to make a dig... we have not removed material from our welds in about fifteen years. Very early on, we did in fact try to smooth some pretty lumpy welds. That era is long past simply because we just don't need to clean them up any more. Ta-Ta.

[crf]

Thanks for all the replies. Adding a tail to this thread, do people buy Ti bikes primarily because of the durability factor? From reading the Forum, competently designed bikes (steel and Ti particularly) have pretty similar ride characteristics. True? Or is it bike-dependent?

[manet]

i stand corrected _ i thought their (spectrum!) welds were single pass.

[swoop]

ti rides like ti.

[chrisroph]

Thanks for all the replies. Adding a tail to this thread, do people buy Ti bikes primarily because of the durability factor? From reading the Forum, competently designed bikes (steel and Ti particularly) have pretty similar ride characteristics. True? Or is it bike-dependent?


Because a great ti bike is a great bike that will not become obsolete anytime soon. For some, particularly those who crash with some regularity (not me!), an added benefit is that they seem to survive abuse extremely well.

[Too Tall]

Thank You T.K.

[rnhood]

Now that was educational - and honest. Posts like that are the reason I come to this forum. Thank you Tom Kellogg.

[Bradford]

Someday I want to buy a bike from Tom Kellogg. Partly because I want one of those cool bikes, partly because I want to hang out with him in the barn for a day.

I also have a bit of a Moots fetish, partly because I like the company & the bikes, partly because I love the Yampa Valley.

Looks like the only solution is to buy both. Now, I just need to figure out how to pay for it all...

[dave thompson]

Someday I want to buy a bike from Tom Kellogg. Partly because I want one of those cool bikes, partly because I want to hang out with him in the barn for a day.

I also have a bit of a Moots fetish, partly because I like the company & the bikes, partly because I love the Yampa Valley.

Looks like the only solution is to buy both. Now, I just need to figure out how to pay for it all...
Don't pay your mortgage for a year.

[Serotta PETE]

Tom, thanks for taking the time to address this from an expert's point of view.

Very much appreciated.


As to why ride a Ti bike - - because of the ride is why I do it!

PETE

[Archibald]

I may be of help here, but just a likely, I will just be poking at the hornets' nest...

First; there are very few Ti builders any more who do not make frames with welds that are not "good enough." i.e.. it is extraordinarily rare that Ti welds fail any more.

My choice to have the custom shop down at Merlin give us a smooth weld (not the stacked dime style) was entirely aesthetic. As a steel builder from the beginning, I just like the "fillet brazed" look. Any welder will tell you that whether you create a smooth puddle or a wave puddle, the structure is the same as long as you know what you are doing.

I will say that creating a smooth single pass weld is very difficult but that is not the reason that we use a double pass technique. Merlin's have always been double pass. The first reason was that back in the early days (19 years ago) Gwyn Jones did worry that a single pass would risk insufficient penetration. That fear has pretty much gone by the wayside, but the second reason still holds: A double pass technique makes it much easier to create more beautiful welds. For the most part, the first pass is a penetrating pass with a narrow but relatively tall pass right in the notch of the miter joint. The second pass usually does NOT add material, but is used to flow out or wash the first pass. This is the part where the appearance of the weld is created. If the first pass is not done exactly correctly though, the second pass will look like poo-poo. Just an example; since one wants a very flat weld on the sides of a main tube weld, the amount of penetrating filler laid down must be tiny relative to the amount of filler laid down under the down tube / head tube joint. Those wave lines can be created using a few different techniques, but when one is using a two pass technique, the usual way of getting the look is to use both the amperage pedal and actual torch hand movement in a somewhat "pulsing" manner. The skill involved is enormous! It exposes us silver solderers and brazers for the posers we are. One area that different welders' work varies a lot is the "softness" of the welds. Since I use the word to describe what I want in welds and that word is not a generally accepted term in the welding fraternity, I should explain. Weld softness is the degree to which it is possible to discern the interface between the weld bead and the tube. A "hard" edge is easy to see and a soft edge is almost impossible to see. OK, now for examples that we all have seen... A moots weld, while easy enough to see, has very soft edges. The weld just seems to disappear into the tubes it joins. Look at it this way, while molten, a Moots weld does not seem to have any surface tension unlike what a drop of water has on a Teflon surface. The tricks to a soft edge are: 1) a level of concentration that I will never achieve, and 2) more heat input than all but the finest welders can handle. The potential problem with that much heat in the hands of someone not in that exalted group is undercutting or blow through.

I guess that what I am getting at is a couple of things. First, even a mediocre Ti welder is good enough to make a perfectly good Ti frame. Second, the artistry that goes into a beautiful titanium weld is both a testament to an individual's skill and level of pride which is REQUIRED to create those welds. And yes, while I prefer the Spectrum style, I do believe that beyond style, the Moots welds are the most beautiful in this or any business. Hey, credit where credit is due. In fact, the folks at Moots could easily do smooth welds, but then we would have nothing to look at and admire. That is the exact reason that the folks at Merlin and Seven never chose to make the switch to smooth welds. They want us all to see them. He**, who can blame them. If you are good, you want folks to see it.

Finally, just to make a dig... we have not removed material from our welds in about fifteen years. Very early on, we did in fact try to smooth some pretty lumpy welds. That era is long past simply because we just don't need to clean them up any more. Ta-Ta.
Very nice. We seem to be on the same page. :beer:

Just a comment for clarity on the section of your post I bolded. While I'm certain the double pass weld technique you described is how Merlin does it, it is not typical. For most builders I know who use a double pass technique, including Moots, the first pass is a fusion pass made without any filler material which in addition to joining the tubes and virtually ensuring 100% penetration, also leaves a nice little groove to follow and aids the welder in achieving the desired concavity while maintaining proper weld throat depth during the second pass with filler. The second pass requires no more heat/amperage than a normal filler pass and the fusion weld actually minimizes the chance of blow through. The fusion pass does require very tight miters. I can understand why you guys do it the opposite way if you want to achieve no significant texture in the weld.

[Archibald]

ti rides like ti.
Actually, Ti, like any other material, rides like it was designed to ride. :)

[swoop]

Actually, Ti, like any other material, rides like it was designed to ride. :)
i'm trying to say that the granular structure of ti gives it it's specific ride properties. it has to do with how vibrations travel through it versus other materials. it's just that i am not smart enough to know how to say it.

[1centaur]

Actually, Ti, like any other material, rides like it was designed to ride. :)

One of the most often repeated myths of cycling is that any frame's material can be designed to ride in any way. Balderdash!

While I give a minute chance to the notion that any material COULD be made to behave exactly like another in one way (other than steel and Ti, which seem very similar to me), once we accept that the frame must be reasonably light and stiff there is no way (yet known to man) that a steel frame or a a Ti frame can be made to feel like a similarly light and stiff carbon fibre frame - the combination of weight, compliance, localized stiffness and general vibration transmission between those materials does not intersect.

Similarly, aluminum has earned its reputation for stiffness at market weights and does not feel like steel or Ti to me in the various forms I have ridden each.

Each material has a central tendency for ride characteristics at a given weight, and if one tried to design away from that central tendency to match another material's central tendency one would create a bike without the proper gestalt, atmo.

[soulspinner]

A legendary builder takes the time to explain the issue thoroughly and doesnt even try to sway opinion. Tom is always willing to explain cycling to people who arent even buying. When I go ti(I may have to live in a barn after the divorce another bike would cause(shes a lawyer)) it will be with Tom as he can fit me and my specific needs. When I called Moots about custom they seemed less interested although their turn around time was very short. Unless you gotta have them welds its a no brainer to me.

[catulle]

Each material has a central tendency for ride characteristics at a given weight, and if one tried to design away from that central tendency to match another material's central tendency one would create a bike without the proper gestalt, atmo.


Would you please describe the "central tendency" of the different materials, please. Thanx.

[swoop]

Would you please describe the "central tendency" of the different materials, please. Thanx.


ti is bi. steel will do anything that crosses it's path (total leg humper). aluminum is into bondage and carbon just lays there and looks at you, but folds your clothes for you when you are in the shower.

atmo.

i once had an aluminum bike that felt like a ti bik e with a carbon ride.. but it ended up being the tires. go figure. the difference between materials has more to do with how vibrations are transmitted along the tubes (is frequency the right concept? i'm a shrink and not an engineer. i just play one on a gay website). as well as how much material it takes to mitigate torsional and flex inducing energy. so that the thickness of the material involves the grain too.

[catulle]

ti is bi. steel will do anything that crosses it's path (total leg humper). aluminum is into bondage and carbon just lays there and looks at you, but folds your clothes for you when you are in the shower.

atmo.

i once had an aluminum bike that felt like a ti bik e with a carbon ride.. but it ended up being the tires. go figure. the difference between materials has more to do with how vibrations are transmitted along the tubes (is frequency the right concept? i'm a shrink and not an engineer. i just play one on a gay website). as well as how much material it takes to mitigate torsional and flex inducing energy. so that the thickness of the material involves the grain too.

Would it be appropriate, then, to think of steel as a polymorphos pervert? Also, I understand your description of Titanium the least; maybe because of its very nature? Hey, thanks...!

[manet]

Would it be appropriate, then, to think of steel as a polymorphos pervert? Also, I understand your description of Titanium the least; maybe because of its very nature? Hey, thanks...!


just buy her a wig

[Archibald]

i'm trying to say that the granular structure of ti gives it it's specific ride properties. it has to do with how vibrations travel through it versus other materials. it's just that i am not smart enough to know how to say it.
All materials used in bike frames have certain NVH properties. That said, once those materials are formed into a tube stiff enough for a typical bike frame, you'd have to be able to read braille with your, um, *elbow* to tell the difference.

To someone else's remark: Why aluminum has a reputation for harshness has nothing to do with the NVH properties of the material, it has to do with how aluminum responds to long term stress and its lack of a fatigue limit. To achieve a long life under extended cyclic stresses, you have to engineer the piss out of it *or* overbuild it beyond what is required to support a given load for short duration. This can make the structure stiffer and stiffer and overbuilding was the path of least resistance for most aluminum builders, hence, the stiff reputation in spite of the fact that aluminum is the most flexible of the metals used in frames.

You can make one material ride like another and this has been shown in highly engineered and well thought out examples of each. But, these are rare. What a material's reputation is based on is what is out there in cycling land in mass and these typically do not/did not take best advantage of the materials properties so you get "stiff aluminim", "flexy ti", and "heavy steel."

I need to sum this up.

It's like this: theoretically, you should be able to build a steel bike, using the latest and greatest super alloys, lighter that you can an aluminum, Ti, or CF bike. You can't simply because it's not practical and the manufacturing and real life durability constraints you face (ultra thin walls, butting obstacles, difficulty achieving optimized shaping, joining constraints, etc., etc.). Because of this, aluminum and ti will always have a weight advantage over steel. The same is true of Ti and Aluminum. Aluminum is more malleable and it can be easier to manage the manufacturing constraints so it will always have a weight advantage over Ti. While CF can have durability and failure mode limitations/disadvantages in lightweight, high stress, structural applications, CF will always have a weight advantage because it is such a malleable material that's raw properties lend itself to maximizing strength while minimizing weight.

I've left some pretty gaping holes in there, but it's all I have time for at the moment.

[malcolm]

Leaving out the early canondales and kestrels both with rides I found distasteful. I've found the most noticable changes have come from saddles and tires. A brooks B-17 and rruffy tuffy/rolly pollys would make a drain pipe bike tolerable.