Interbike Best in Show

[dbrk]

Just a few pictures from the Vegas show. Very, very few bikes inspired and excited me and by far my favorite was the new Pegoretti Responsorium.
That's Steve and Dario...

dbrk

[atmo]

without peer atmo.
the jil sander of the industry.

[shinomaster]

That thing is cool. It looks like my note book in artschool..Gold Shamals are rad imho..

[dbrk]

One more...

[obtuse]

yup that thing was the best bike there by far.....didn't even notice its wheels....imagine that.

obtuse

[atmo]

rock your own world and never even get hooked on phonics.
get the basquiat soundtrack and listen to john cale's hallelujah.
heck. listen to it all -
http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/mediaplayer.asp?ean=731452426024&z=y

[obtuse]

rock your own world and never even get hooked on phonics.
get the basquiat soundtrack and listen to john cale's hallelujah.
heck. listen to it all -
http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/mediaplayer.asp?ean=731452426024&z=y


yeah what he said.

friggin hippy.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

.

[obtuse]

.


see that awesome jacket just out of the picture underneath that old fashioned funny looking bike?

that's some frucking nippon style coco chanel meets suffolk downs east boston ponytrack with a head full of qualludes on a bicycle style shi'ite.....

tanabe keirin leisure wear.....return my prada and give me euro-asia imports 1 800 number.

obtuse

[manet]

.

santa has visited the forum. we spoke.
(i believe he's partial to serottas.)
geographically you are closer. i don't
have friends and family, so perhaps
you should make the call.

[Ginger]

Steve Hampsten turned shoe salesman?

You guys look *so* busted.

[cs124]

Other than the paintjob, which does nothing for me, purely a matter of taste, what makes this bike so special?

And if the answer is "Dario" what makes it any better than any of his other bikes?

[Grant McLean]

Steve Hampsten turned shoe salesman?

You guys look *so* busted.

Why are Dario's legs crossed?

g

[obtuse]

Other than the paintjob, which does nothing for me, purely a matter of taste, what makes this bike so special?

And if the answer is "Dario" what makes it any better than any of his other bikes?


he could have painted a production milani/pinarello that he had made 15,000 identical versions of in the same scheme and it would have done it for me....but to answer your question.....

this guy has brazed over 40,000 race bikes in his life. he has designed thousands of race bikes....he dragged the entire industry out of the 1960's with his innovations in tubing design and building procedure....look at the proportions of that frame....look at the hand work of that frame, look at the tubing diameters of that frame and look at the balance and perfection of the angles and the lines as it all comes together into a coherent, comprehensive racing bicycle.

forget for a moment that it is made out of a new stainless steel tubeset that has tensile strenght and weight charachteristics that put other ferrous tubesets to shame and equal or exceed those of the best composites and alloys....this thing is the epitome of an art that never truly existed except in tiny historical accidents outside of myth; the man whos name is on the downtube designed that tubeset, mittered those tubes, welded those tubes and painted that frame and probably put the thing together too. it's a race bike that envelops the whole tradition and right paths and wrong paths of a century of italian race bike design and production. it pays homage to the past but destroys nostalgia and meets the travesty that is the race bike as compromised commodity and advertisment in the age of mechanical reproduction head on and spits on it and shows there is a better way.

forget all that bullshi'ite though...you want to know what makes this bike so special? it's a race bike designed and built by a guy who builds race bikes.


obtuse

[dbrk]

snip... what makes this bike so special? And if the answer is "Dario" what makes it any better than any of his other bikes?


I would not say it is "better" than any of the other Dario bikes but it has two wonderful features that set it apart: first, this new stainless steel from Columbus has lovely proportions and the particular tubes that Dario picked not only insure a fantastic ride---nimble, compliant, right---but also superb proportions and stance. The bike looks balanced, whole, each tube's diameter flowing properly into the next: traditional but moving forward into the present tastes and forms. Second, if you care about such things, you save about 400g from the Marcelo, at least that is what I remember.

I would be delighted to see mine in black with just a soft pink bici scheme...hmm.

dbrk

[Grant McLean]

he could have painted a production milani/pinarello that he had made 15,000 identical versions of in the same scheme and it would have done it for me....but to answer your question.....

this guy has brazed over 40,000 race bikes in his life. he has designed thousands of race bikes....he dragged the entire industry out of the 1960's with his innovations in tubing design and building procedure....look at the proportions of that frame....look at the hand work of that frame, look at the tubing diameters of that frame and look at the balance and perfection of the angles and the lines as it all comes together into a coherent, comprehensive racing bicycle.

forget for a moment that it is made out of a new stainless steel tubeset that has tensile strenght and weight charachteristics that put other ferrous tubesets to shame and equal or exceed those of the best composites and alloys....this thing is the epitome of an art that never truly existed except in tiny historical accidents outside of myth; the man whos name is on the downtube designed that tubeset, mittered those tubes, welded those tubes and painted that frame and probably put the thing together too. it's a race bike that envelops the whole tradition and right paths and wrong paths of a century of italian race bike design and production. it pays homage to the past but destroys nostalgia and meets the travesty that is the race bike as compromised commodity and advertisment in the age of mechanical reproduction head on and spits on it and shows there is a better way.

forget all that bullshi'ite though...you want to know what makes this bike so special? it's a race bike designed and built by a guy who builds race bikes.


obtuse

can we get an amen!

g

[Louis]

Our forum crowd moves back and forth between "bikes are simple tools to be ridden" and "bikes are to be pedaled, and great bikes are also works or art."

Looks to me these days that folks have swung hard over to the latter...

[obtuse]

Our forum crowd moves back and forth between "bikes are simple tools to be ridden" and "bikes are to be pedaled, and great bikes are also works or art."

Looks to me these days that folks have swung hard over to the latter...


you didn't read a thing i wrote did you?

obtuse

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that if somebody rode by you on the street on this bike WITHOUT the funky paintjob and WITHOUT "Pegoretti" written on it, you'd never even notice it.

Not sayin' it ain't a nicely built and handling bike, but you guys are just a bit over the top with this hero worship stuff . . . :rolleyes:

" . . . this thing is the epitome of an art that never truly existed except in tiny historical accidents outside of myth . . . "

Oh, puh-LEEZ . . . ;) ;) ;)

BBD

[dbrk]

Our forum crowd moves back and forth between "bikes are simple tools to be ridden" and "bikes are to be pedaled, and great bikes are also works or art."
Looks to me these days that folks have swung hard over to the latter...

I never think of bikes as simple tools to be ridden. Why reduce them to mere function? First, building a proper race bike or a proper all-arounder with mudguards, etc., is nothing like simple. And second, all bikes that people ride are just fine but some are more beautiful than others (your call) and some are built more precisely for their purpose. We need not mislead ourselves with paint, that's just for fun and, after all, who wants to ride somethin' you don't like? A Pegoretti, like other great bikes...like Nagasawa in this thread...or many a Serotta, et.al., are not mere tools. Never imhoatmoyo.

dbrk

[manet]

does round do cross?

[bironi]

for Dario's bikes, but I have not ridden one. I certainly cannot access this bike with the background noise of these photos. I think the photo gallery advice offered on this forum should apply to the Interbike also. :beer:

[dbrk]

. . . that if somebody rode by you on the street on this bike WITHOUT the funky paintjob and WITHOUT "Pegoretti" written on it, you'd never even notice it. Not sayin' it ain't a nicely built and handling bike, but you guys are just a bit over the top with this hero worship stuff . . . :rolleyes:
" . . . this thing is the epitome of an art that never truly existed except in tiny historical accidents outside of myth . . . "
Oh, puh-LEEZ . . . ;) ;) ;)
BBD


Oh boy. The same could be said for a perfectly proportioned Serotta or any other bike without paint or pedigree. It's not just tubes, it's a design and a vision, and if you rode by it not knowing what it was, well, you had no idea how it rides. How does such a bike ride? As well as any race bike ever.

This isn't hero worship. This is acknowledgement of craft, creativity, vision, experience, and commitment. This is rare in our age or any. Respect for such work is apparently rarer still.

As for obtuse's last comment, you have to know something about the history of bicycle craft to know just how right he is on this point. So much of what is past is cast in fictions and romances that have little to do with the quality and genius of the craft more closely observed. Dario is rare because he is the Real Deal: not a name on a frame but a frame builder whose standards and whose craft actually has had very, very few parallels in the past. Much like Sachs, Weigle, Kellogg, Kirk, Goodrich, the really gifted one (two) person shops, Pegoretti has participated in actually creating a reality of craft that was in the past only a romantic vision. Put this bike on an alignment table, study its geos, ride it down the road, then see the difference.


dbrk

[manet]

does round do cross?

[dbrk]

does round do cross?

If you ask nicely and are willing to wait. I have my eyes on one but need to sell a few things to make room.

dbrk

[manet]

If you ask nicely and are willing to wait. I have my eyes on one but need to sell a few things to make room.

dbrk

thanks _ may it not snow on you for 2 weeks.

[Louis]

you didn't read a thing i wrote did you?

1) We're cross posting. I was typing that at the same time as you were typing yours. I did not read yours until after I posted mine.

2) For all this talk about how great the bike is, how many people here have even ridden it?

Louis

[Grant McLean]

. . . that if somebody rode by you on the street on this bike WITHOUT the funky paintjob and WITHOUT "Pegoretti" written on it, you'd never even notice it.

Not sayin' it ain't a nicely built and handling bike, but you guys are just a bit over the top with this hero worship stuff . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

Indulge me for a second...

At the shop earlier tonite, I found $140 in cash on the floor of the store,
lying in front of a rack of about 10 Cervelo bikes.
The manager and I went up to the office and checked the security
computer to see if we could see who dropped it. Fast forwarding through
the last two hours of video, do you know how many people lifted up the
handlebars of every bike to see how much they weigh? Like 50 people.

Do you know how many people a day ask "how much does it weigh?"
People have no clue.

Call it Dario worship if you must, but the man has my respect because
he knows what is important. Very few people in the industry do.

g

[gdw]

Let's be honest folks....that is one of the ugliest paint jobs ever to grace a bike which wasn't stolen. Dario might be a genius when it comes to design but that bike wouldn't be out of place leaning against the wall of any urban crack house or being ridden by a shirtless meth addict to the local 7-11. Fugly.

[dbrk]

2) For all this talk about how great the bike is, how many people here have even ridden it?
Louis

No one, not a soul but I would wager that irrelevant. Why? Because Dario says the tubes are rightly proportioned steel (and if you don't think he can tell tubes just by looking at them in the raw...well, I have another very cool story to tell...) and because he designed the ride. The material ranks far down the list of what would make this bike ride as well as it certainly does. Like Serotta, Dario could make drain pipe ride well but neither would choose anything but superb tubes. Pretty simple, no?

dbrk

[Cary Ford]

the jil sander of the industry.

That's hilarious...

I just got an e-mail that told me the Big Leg Emma Dario measured me for at LAST year's Interbike, actually the replacement frame that he built for me after the first one showed up and wouldn't accept Campy cranks, just arrived at Gita.

[Grant McLean]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Dario&word2=Hero+Worship

[Louis]

No one, not a soul but I would wager that irrelevant. Why? Because Dario says the tubes are rightly proportioned steel and because he designed the ride.

Douglas,

Without any doubt, that fingernail clipping Dario cut off last week knows more about building frames than I ever will in my entire lifetime. However, I think the categorical statements made recently about that bike would carry more weight if at least some of the posters could also say that they had ridden the bike and that it was the best thing since, say, Confente, or whatever.

Louis

[dbrk]

snip... the categorical statements made recently about that bike would carry more weight if at least some of the posters could also say that they had ridden the bike and that it was the best thing since, say, Confente, or whatever. Louis

I agree. Once we've ridden this particular model we'll know more. But we can make a few simple inferences from experience. I've owned or still own the Fina, Luigino, Marcelo, BLE, and GGM and have never, ever been disappointed. Every last one has been a great ride. I'd be defying my own experience if I thought this one would disappoint, but fair enough.

dbrk

[Avispa]

Not sayin' it ain't a nicely built and handling bike, but you guys are just a bit over the top with this hero worship stuff . . . :rolleyes:

" . . . this thing is the epitome of an art that never truly existed except in tiny historical accidents outside of myth . . . "

BBD

Since we are all entitled to our opinon, let me spoil this post with mine! :eek: :eek:

I realize, I may be the most bicycle-uneducated forum member, but I really don't get excited by these Pegoretti bikes at all! Well, I don't know which bike really gets me excited... they are all nice looking tools to me!

I concur, Pegorettis may ride like dreams, but I could not tell the difference between this Responsorium bike and one of John Slawta's (LandShark) worse paint jobs! I am also, not so excited about the huge head tube protrusion on most of his bikes or the fat Cannondale style chain stays.... By saying this I am not implying that the man himself is not a master of his craft*, but it's the aesthetics that don't turn me on.... I'd rather see (not drool over the looks of) a Parlee, MeiVici or Calfee, even a Kirk or a Sachs, for the looks of them, but to each his own...

*Thanks obtuse for your previous (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=259883&postcount=14) explanation, it made me change my mind a bit! ;)

BTW, some would think the following pictures are master pieces, to me they are master *****...

[93legendti]

Since we are all entitled to our opinon, let me spoil this post with mine! :eek: :eek:

I realize, I may be the most bicycle-uneducated forum member, but I really don't get excited by these Pegoretti bikes at all! Well, I don't know which bike really gets me excited... they are all nice looking tools to me!

I concur, Pegorettis may ride like dreams, but I could not tell the difference between this Responsorium bike and one of John Slawta's (LandShark) worse paint jobs! I am also, not so excited about the huge head tube protrusion on most of his bikes or the fat Cannondale style chain stays.... By saying this am not implying that the man himself is not a master of his craft*, but its the aesthetics that don't turn me on.... I'd rather see a Parlee, MeiVici or Cervelo, for the looks of them, but to each his own...

*Thanks obtuse for your previous (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=259883&postcount=14) explanation, it made me change my mind a bit! ;)

BTW, some would think the following pictures are master pieces, to me they are master *****...

Ellsworth Kelly?

[swoop]

people judge what they don't understand rather than meet it with curioisty. i am not going to explain modern art... except to say that at some point art became about the process of art making, the process of perception, and it started to reference itself. because of photography's ability to record the literal, painting was freed from the limitation of representation and could just focus on the art making process, the material process, and then could focus on purely formal concerns. it could focus on the existential moment rather than function as a reference point to a moment that already happened.
the assumption in the previous posts presumes that visual art can only be a visual experience rather than a language with an ever developing internal structure. it could even be said that the constructivists pre-imagined the very pixels that make for the images communicated through this computer screen. some painting is about the process of seeing.
that being said.. i can look at a ferrari and a ford focus. they are both cars. if i know just a little about cars i can see that both can get me from point a to point b. that the two offer completely different experiences is about the process of getting from point a to point b.

dario, sachs, kellogg... build ferraris of a sort. if you tooka sachs or a peg and leaned it next to any number of bikes.. it's quality would be obvious to anyone that had the capacity to speak the langauge of form.
how you see it says more about you than the bike.

but to call constuctivism **** is just to announce one's lack of understanding of an entire language. to confuse a chinese mass produced made frame with a peg to say that you don't understand what you are seeing.
regarding the chinese manufacturing process... hey, did anyone mention how much ffiberglass some of those manufactureres are putting in the carbon lay up to keep prices down? yes, i said fiberglass.

we are talking about apples and oranges. one is a feat of mass production/manufacturing and the other is a feat of mastery and form. both feats have merit.... but they are about entirely different things. apples and oranges.

i ask that you aspire to get to the point that you can see the difference... for no other reason than that to be at the point is to experience an existential moment.

[Avispa]

people judge what they don't understand rather than meet it with curioisty.

Thanks swoop...

I wonder, is one's judgement and personal opinion are the same thing? Maybe not...

The first time I saw a LandShark I was intrigued by it, the last time, I was disgusted!

Too bad my views of Pegoretti's paint jobs has always being the same....

;)

[Avispa]

Ellsworth Kelly?

No bro, Kazimir Malevich...

[swoop]

I wonder, is one's judgement and a personal opinion the same thing?

The first time I saw a LandShark I was intrigued by it, the last time, I was disgusted!

Too bad my views of Pegoretti's paint jobs has always being the same....

;)
i'm not even talking about the paint jobs.. i'm talkin about the whole thing. opinions are tricky because they have agendas underneath them.. and it depends on the agenda.

if the agenda is that you like something because it pleases you.. then something is good if it gives you pleasure... and bad if it doesn't. that's a dangerous way to assess the quality of things because it relies entirely of the superficial in the presence of more meaningful information (and the context).

it is the difference between: 'here i am entertain me'... versus seeing the beauty of a mass manufacturing process (the manufacturing being a means to an end), the beauty of form and function, and the beauty inherent to something like this:
the point being.. there is beauty here because there is beauty everywhere (in equal amounts too). it's about understanding what the beauty is about. this wooden bike is a s beautiful as a peg....because of it's social context. the beauty of being able to mass produce a 15lb bike with cheap labor is a vastly different kind of beauty than what one sees in a sachs or a peg.
in a sachs lug i see a lifetime if brazing.... it's a meditation. and then you ride the crap out of the thing to bring it to it's potential.
this is about how one sees the world around them and how one differentiates the beauty in things.
this is also about laziness.it's just lazy to see a peg as just a bike like a giant.

ok.... that's all the deep thoughts for the month. i've got to go take a monster dump.
:P
obtuse got it right in much less words.

[d_douglas]

Is one of my most hated questions.

I helped a friend buy a CSI earlier this year and that's the first thing he asked "- its stell and its big - isn't it going to weigh alot?"

That's not importnat - you can only assume that Kelly B or Dario P or E-Richie have moved long beyond the weight of a bike, assuming that there is a comfortable range; they have more or less figured out the intangible - the 'way' of a frame that makes it special.

My Cinelli is a tank, but I love the ride, because they have figured out how to make it ride great.

On the same note, I have never ridden a Peg, but know that it would be a pleasure.

[cs124]

thank you, now i think i get it.

[Climb01742]

Other than the paintjob, which does nothing for me, purely a matter of taste, what makes this bike so special?

And if the answer is "Dario" what makes it any better than any of his other bikes?

dario's goal was to design/build his "best" steel bike to date. to improve on the marcelo. i believe he feels he's done that.

[Climb01742]

we who dig pegorettis can seem a bit (or a lot) over the top sometimes. skepticism is not an inappropriate response to our passion. granted and guilty as charged. but please kniow this: dario the person is one of the most down to earth dudes you'll ever meet. he'd never say about his bikes what we say. he is quite simply one of the most genuine, nicest, humblest dudes i have ever met in my life. we gush. he never would. please don't let our passion rub negatively off on dario. nor his bikes. they, and he, stand on their own two wheels and feet quite nicely. and putting my personal feelings aside... i've ridden a lot of sweet bikes and love carbon, but the one bike i keep coming back to as my fav is my alu cckmp. i expect (hope?) my love #3 will take alu one step up. and expect/hope my stainless will do the same for steel. and one last word on the paint: i don't honestly think dario painted it for anyone but himself. "response" is both a cycling word and a personal word. the paint is dario's response to his family and the last year of his life. anyone could have theirs painted quite differently.

[davyt]

can we get an amen!

Amen, Brother Grant!

Dario's new bike is stunning: my jaw literally dropped when I first saw it.

But the bigger impression made upon me was later, after my naive questions and rolling up my pants leg to expose my unshaven legs and getting autographs for my two daughters, after chatting about wine and food and family and music, this man is willing to build a bike for a rube like me.

And he will...
--
Davy

[fffastfreddie]

"response" is both a cycling word and a personal word. the paint is dario's response to his family and the last year of his life. anyone could have theirs painted quite differently.

Climb can you tell us what changes have occured? I do not wish to indulge in gossip, but ask merely out of concern. When I visited him in late 2004 he was still working with his brother Gianni and Zoodee was not on the seen as yet. Is it these changes you speak of?

Just to concur with the others, Dario is a fantastic GENTLEMAN who lives and breathes the passion with which we aspire too.

[Elefantino]

Let's be honest folks....that is one of the ugliest paint jobs ever to grace a bike which wasn't stolen.

For me it's just too, too much. But then I'm not an art critic.

Emperor Joseph II: Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect.
Mozart: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?

[Too Tall]

TofT Yr. InMyHo :)

Wow. that's all. Just wow. Pleasing proportions are what I first saw in Dario's new bike not the paint which I liken to a challenging piece of new music. Immediate reward and familiarity will not greet anyone first seeing this bike. You are forced to find and rekindle your aesthetic BEFORE judgements / opinions form. The paint is OBVIOUSLY a personal expression and a challenge AND a foil to anyone who is casual.

:) Few if any cultures than Italians engage so many of our senses with what they create. We happen to knew a few others....

[Fixed]

bro so how much for the stainless steel steed ?
my guess $5000 for frame alone
cheers

[obtuse]

does round do cross?


yes. adam myerspace raced cross on one all last year and i have personally set up at least half a dozen pegoretti cyclo-cross bikes for folks.....inlcuding one black one with pink skeletons on it.

obtuse

[atmo]

yes. adam myerspace raced cross on one all last year and i have personally set up at least half a dozen pegoretti cyclo-cross bikes for folks.....inlcuding one black one with pink skeletons on it.

obtuse
manilow-issimo atmo

[swoop]

bro so how much for the stainless steel steed ?
my guess $5000 for frame alone
cheers


as i recall it was 3500-ish. but i am not sure.

[davids]

Thread of the year, atmo. It's all here - craft, purpose, art, language (both written and visual). I have no profound comments to add - dbrk, obtuse, and swoop pretty much said it all.

So, just a couple observations:

Dario's paint job has nothing in common with those middlebrow Landshark monstrosities. Robert Rauschenberg vs. carnival spin art, atmo. That said, this particular Peg paint isn't my cup of tea. Doesn't mean I don't dig the impulse and, ultimately, the gestalt of the frame.

Listen to John Cale sing "Hallelujah". (It's also available on I'm Your Fan (http://www.amazon.com/Im-Your-Fan-Various-Artists/dp/B000002ISX).)

I heard there was a secret chord
That David played
And it pleased the Lord.
But you don't really care for music
Do you?

It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth, the minor fall
The major lift.
The baffled king composing
Hallelujah.

[1centaur]

I hate to get analytical when there is so much love (#3) in this thread, but:

The angles and lengths of stock Pegs in my size are almost identical to most of my bikes, in particular the ones I specified - extremely middle of the fairway measurements.

The tube widths, other than recent chainstays, have also always been pretty typical.

The HT stack is certainly long - yet to understand why that is good unless you want to ride a small frame for your size and don't like spacers.

The welding I have seen on Pegs looks fine, no better than Moots for sure.

Therefore I think the magic of Pegs cannot be in the visual (unless one loves the paint) but in the riding, which would reflect on tube choice/specification and possibly joining technique, both done with the goal of riding pleasure as well as function in a way that small shops can do better than designers setting up production runs in Asia. I think once one has ridden a certain bike, the aesthetics of its look take on a different meaning to the rider. For example, my Crumpton. Nick's tube joints flow smoothly through transitions as no other custom carbon bike does, and I believe Nick specified the tubes to produce very specific ride qualities that I enjoy (it's my number one bike). Now when I look at it those tubes and joins convey the impression of careful rightness in a way I bet they would not if I saw the bike leaning against a wall for the first time. Obtuse and dbrk, to pick two, have ridden Pegs and met the man, and I believe that affects how they see the frame. For those of us who have not done either, it looks pretty ordinary apart from the paint.

As for the one-man explanation, I suggest that tons of small steel frame builders fit most of the characteristics being praised in the case of this Peg. Their angles and tube proportions would be very close to these, their care and thought in construction much the same. If this Peg exceeds that standard, it will be due to closer knowledge of these new tubes than others enjoy.

[Climb01742]

Climb can you tell us what changes have occured? I do not wish to indulge in gossip, but ask merely out of concern. When I visited him in late 2004 he was still working with his brother Gianni and Zoodee was not on the seen as yet. Is it these changes you speak of?

Just to concur with the others, Dario is a fantastic GENTLEMAN who lives and breathes the passion with which we aspire too.

i'm sorry but i'm not sure it's my place to say more. my heart just goes out to dario. he's a very human/e being.

[Tom]

Yes. Yes, you can. It's easier when somebody's riding the thing but sometimes you can tell when they are standing still.

Sometimes even a stupid sloping top tube Specialized has it when the person that's riding it fits right. Sometimes something like a Serotta or a Peg doesn't have it when the person's curled up like a worm on it or their arms are locked out tighter than a bull's *** in fly season.

It's a system of rider and bike.

But then there are the ones that just sit there and you go uh huh, that'll work. Real purty too.

[Kevan]

I for one enjoy this paint job. What disappoints is the clearcoated Reynolds fork seemingly installed as an afterthought. Why not continue the paint theme throughout?

[atmo]

<snipped> If this Peg exceeds that standard, it will be due to closer knowledge of these new tubes than others enjoy.

again - it's a gene pool thing atmo.
there's a body of work thing goin' on here atmo.
you can't teach that imho. heck, you can hardly
describe it. it goes back to the gets it thread.

[manet]

BTW, some would think the following pictures are master pieces, to me they are master *****...

when asked to 'explain' a specific piece of art (or anything art related) to a person that believes to have been attacked by it, i ease them into changing out the offending object for another, one equally complex, but one perhaps not so confrontational. for most, i change out the art for say electrical engineering. and not expect most to grapple and subdue the beast in a single drive-by.

any historically complex bread crumbed trail should be fun to wander down. if it's not, and instead is just more angry drudgery, then perhaps a bud and a slice?


http://www.mondaypapers.com/heavenandhell/budandaslice.html

[Tom Byrnes]

Thread of the year, atmo. It's all here - craft, purpose, art, language (both written and visual). I have no profound comments to add - dbrk, obtuse, and swoop pretty much said it all.
. . . . .
[/INDENT]

Douglas, Craig, Noel, James, et al. - Thank you for your very passionate and well written posts. Very interesting thread.

Tom

[fffastfreddie]

i'm sorry but i'm not sure it's my place to say more. my heart just goes out to dario. he's a very human/e being.


Whatever it is, I hope it is a brighter future ahead. I hope he gets to read this thread and see the appreciation/admiration his friends have for him.

[93legendti]

No bro, Kazimir Malevich...


Works for me!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that I would be a lot more comfortable with all the slavering worship if anyone who had seen this bike could also say they have ridden it.

I have no doubt that it's a GOOD bike. My respect for dbrk and Obtuse and Swoop via their experienced body of comment here on the forum lets me be confident that Dario is indeed a gentleman who lives and breathes cycling and framebuilding and is a master at the top of his game. I also can have great respect--and DO have it--for his sense of artistry in his paint jobs. This particular one does not turn me on, but many others of his I have seen do really impress me.

But I also try to keep in mind that even Picasso at his peak produced a few pieces of artistic poop that would not attract a bid at the neighborhood garage sale. I'm sure even (GASP!) Ben Serotta has a few models in his past that he would rather not put on his resume. Just because Dario made it does not automatically mean it's perfect. Whether something is truly "art" is obviously in the eye of the beholder, but I tend to personally be more objective than emotional about such things.

I will find it far easier to truly believe this is a great bike when I have seen an actual ride report from someone who has ridden other Pegs, but who can evaluate it as a BICYCLE--a PRODUCT--rather than as an art object filtered through personal admiration for the builder.

I am also acutely aware that there is a certain element of "cool kids lunch table" at work here on the forum more often than I'd like. If I showed up here making these same claims about certain other bikes or brands that are just not "cool" I would be attracting some flames, rather than sage agreements and comments about how the paint job reflects man's inner struggle for triumph over angst in the guise of rampant constructivism . . . or whatever . . . :rolleyes:

So I guess, in short, I guess gimme one and paint it yellow and I'd ride it . . .

BBD

[davids]

So I guess, in short, I guess gimme one and paint it yellow and I'd ride it . . .

BBD
Here ya go:

[gdw]

"there is a certain element of "cool kids lunch table" at work here on the forum more often than I'd like." I prefer the term Stealth marketing. As to the paint job, it reminds me of some of Ivan Albright's work.
http://www.butlerart.com/pc_book/pages/ivan_le_lorraine_albright_1897.htm

[swoop]

"there is a certain element of "cool kids lunch table" at work here on the forum more often than I'd like." I prefer the term Stealth marketing. As to the paint job, it reminds me of some of Ivan Albright's work.
http://www.butlerart.com/pc_book/pages/ivan_le_lorraine_albright_1897.htm

if i may, this forum is the lunch table and everybody is sitting here. there isn't anywhere else to sit... just one table for all. the jerk ate my pudding.

[Fixed]

some bros can just speak their minds better than others
imho
cheers

[ergott]

I know I am completely biased on this one, but...

I think that something that a frame that is so carefully constructed with a VERY high level of detail deserves hand built wheels. Call me crazy, but that bike would be off the hook with a set of Record hubs (or similar) and Reflex rims (or similar), 32, 3X tied and soldered.

Those Shamals are nice wheels, but wrong for the project IMHO.

[swoop]

oh also. with pegs.. think of it less as a headtube extension and more as a dropped top tube. you can't see that when you compare geometries. it is something that makes sense.

[atmo]

oh also. with pegs.. think of it less as a headtube extension and more as a dropped top tube. you can't see that when you compare geometries. it is something that makes sense.
gets it atmo

[Fixed]

when these bros say a bike is great I know it is .
cheers

[fiamme red]

The paint job on the Interbike frame is a matter of taste (it does nothing for me), the black unpainted fork seems like an afterthought (as Kevan said), and the long headtube extension looks hideous to me. On the other hand, the welds don't look bad. The Pegorettis I've seen in person have had ugly, unfinished, lumpy welds. Take away the wild paint, and the Marcelo and Fina Estampa look mass-produced.

It's ironic that Pegoretti, who is considered a supreme craftsman (viz., one who works on a small scale) by his acolytes, was one of the pioneers in TIG welding expensive steel road frames, introducing a method formerly used to save costs on mass-produced frames. TIG welding had formerly been strictly for aluminum and titanium, and cheaper steel frames, while expensive steel frames had always been brazed, with lugs or fillets.

Someone in this thread called the paint on Landsharks "middle-brow." I don't like all Landshark schemes, but remember that each bike has a custom paint job; you can get exactly what you want, plain or outrageous.

[zeroking17]

Apparently Dario's work strikes a chord in Budapest, too.

http://alleycat.hu/node/1135

http://alleycat.hu/img/thumbnails.php?album=112

p.s. I didn't realize that he was so tall.

[zap]

oh also. with pegs.. think of it less as a headtube extension and more as a dropped top tube. you can't see that when you compare geometries. it is something that makes sense.


Makes no sense to me.

Give me the hacksaw.

[atmo]

The... >snipped>
the mona lisa is a matter of taste too and da vinci has acolytes
up the ying yang. dario is at the vanguard. heck, he is the vanguard
atmo. regardless of whether this particular paint job resonates with
you, pegoretti's line spans alot longer than one display frame. if he
chooses to use one piece to vent, and to use enamel as a device, so
be it.

[Tom]

the mona lisa is a matter of taste too and da vinci has acolytes
up the ying yang.

But I plan to the first week in December. Makes no difference. I think this is a whole lot better. If it weren't tucked away in Krakow but was hanging next to M.L., M.L. would have but one word to say.

"B!tch".

[BumbleBeeDave]

I see you finally got the cat on that diet . . . but why is Karen dressed like that? ;) ;) ;)

BBD

[tch]

Therefore I think the magic of Pegs cannot be in the visual (unless one loves the paint) but in the riding, which would reflect on tube choice/specification and possibly joining technique, both done with the goal of riding pleasure as well as function in a way that small shops can do better than designers setting up production runs in Asia. I think once one has ridden a certain bike, the aesthetics of its look take on a different meaning to the rider. For example, my Crumpton. Nick's tube joints flow smoothly through transitions as no other custom carbon bike does, and I believe Nick specified the tubes to produce very specific ride qualities that I enjoy (it's my number one bike). Now when I look at it those tubes and joins convey the impression of careful rightness in a way I bet they would not if I saw the bike leaning against a wall for the first time. Obtuse and dbrk, to pick two, have ridden Pegs and met the man, and I believe that affects how they see the frame. For those of us who have not done either, it looks pretty ordinary apart from the paint..
I think this may be the best explanation of the "magic" that many attribute to Dario -- but also to their own favorite craftsman bikes, whether they be Sachs, Vanilla, Kirk, or even, to a certain extent, Serotta [Serotta not being "crafts" bikes strictly speaking]. I GET this, especially since so many people look at my Concours and wonder why I would pay so much money for a fricking bike. Ben says: "It's the tubes, damnit!", but in fact, it's the gestalt. And some have more of it than others.

[atmo]

I think this may be the best explanation of the "magic" that many attribute to Dario -- but also to their own favorite craftsman bikes, whether they be Sachs, Vanilla, Kirk, or even, to a certain extent, Serotta [Serotta not being "crafts" bikes strictly speaking]. I GET this, especially since so many people look at my Concours and wonder why I would pay so much money for a fricking bike. Ben says: "It's the tubes, damnit!", but in fact, it's the gestalt. And some have more of it than others.

i defer (http://www.atpm.com/9.10/images/design-gestalt.gif) to the constitution state atmo.

[Grant McLean]

The paint job on the Interbike frame is a matter of taste (it does nothing for me), the black unpainted fork seems like an afterthought (as Kevan said), and the long headtube extension looks hideous to me. On the other hand, the welds don't look bad. The Pegorettis I've seen in person have had ugly, unfinished, lumpy welds. Take away the wild paint, and the Marcelo and Fina Estampa look mass-produced.

It's ironic that Pegoretti, who is considered a supreme craftsman (viz., one who works on a small scale) by his acolytes, was one of the pioneers in TIG welding expensive steel road frames, introducing a method formerly used to save costs on mass-produced frames. TIG welding had formerly been strictly for aluminum and titanium, and cheaper steel frames, while expensive steel frames had always been brazed, with lugs or fillets.



Paint, lugs, welds, finish, blah blah blah…..

Don't be misled. The outward is irrelevant.
Most of Dario's bikes have had others decals on them for most of his career.

Our system of values is screwed up. A pretty face idiot becomes a celebrity,
an ugly genius toils in the darkness. Video killed the radio star.

We are fools. Being concerned with how stuff looks, how much it weighs,
what it’s made out of is totally beside the point.

Dario knows the score. The rest of us are merely confused.

What is the point of a great bicycle? To look at how the tubes are joined?

g

[stevep]

an ugly genius toils in the darkness.
g

youre talking about obtuce, right?
they have lights now. he toils in the light

[fiamme red]

Paint, lugs, welds, finish, blah blah blah…..

Don't be misled. The outward is irrelevant.
Most of Dario's bikes have had others decals on them for most of his career.

Our system of values is screwed up. A pretty face idiot becomes a celebrity,
an ugly genius toils in the darkness. Video killed the radio star.

We are fools. Being concerned with how stuff looks, how much it weighs,
what it’s made out of is totally beside the point.

Dario knows the score. The rest of us are merely confused.

What is the point of a great bicycle? To look at how the tubes are joined?

gSo it's all about the ride now? I thought that these bikes were not just tools, but art? In fact, someone said it in this thread.

[Grant McLean]

So it's all about the ride now? I thought that these bikes were not just tools, but art? In fact, someone said it in this thread.

I didn't.

Is there only 1 right answer?

When you look at a plant what do you see?

shade
medicine
food
fuel
art
nest material

It depends on what you want from it.

g

[Redturbo]

Paint, lugs, welds, finish, blah blah blah…..

Don't be misled. The outward is irrelevant.
Most of Dario's bikes have had others decals on them for most of his career.

Our system of values is screwed up. A pretty face idiot becomes a celebrity,
an ugly genius toils in the darkness. Video killed the radio star.

We are fools. Being concerned with how stuff looks, how much it weighs,
what it’s made out of is totally beside the point.

Dario knows the score. The rest of us are merely confused.

What is the point of a great bicycle? To look at how the tubes are joined?

g

I could not help thinking of Dennis Hopper when reading this. :D
By the way, I like Dennis Hopper.

turbo

[fiamme red]

I didn't.

Is there only 1 right answer?

When you look at a plant what do you see?

shade
medicine
food
fuel
art
nest material

It depends on what you want from it.

gIf I had the choice between a Pegoretti frame with bad welds and a nice ride quality and a Strong or Sycip with good welds and similar ride quality but for half the price, don't blame me if I chose the latter.

[atmo]

If I had the choice between a Pegoretti frame with bad welds and a nice ride quality and a Strong or Sycip with good welds and similar ride quality but for half the price, don't blame me if I chose the latter.
so - it comes down to price atmo?

[fiamme red]

so - it comes down to price atmo?Well, the fact that Pegorettis cost so much does show that Dario is a genius at marketing. And the wild paint jobs have a good deal to do with that.

[Grant McLean]

Well, the fact that Pegorettis cost so much does show that Dario is a genius at marketing. And the wild paint jobs have a good deal to do with that.

You're entitled to your opinion. I respect that, and I don't mean to pile on.

I look at it this way: They cost what they cost.

g

[Archibald]

I didn't.

Is there only 1 right answer?

When you look at a plant what do you see?

shade
medicine
food
fuel
art
nest material

It depends on what you want from it.

g
Cool analogy. I'm going to use that in the future and not give you any credit.

:banana:

[atmo]

Well, the fact that Pegorettis cost so much does show that Dario is a genius at marketing. And the wild paint jobs have a good deal to do with that.
you could say the same thing about any consumer good.
the fact remains that he has put in his bench time, he has
made the bicycles, and after a certain point it all becomes
intuitive. you can't teach that at ubi or its ilk (no sleight
intended). i know you're a vintage buff so i'll recount that
anecdote about rebour getting flak for asking ___ french
francs for a sketch that took a few moments - his reply
was that it took 30 years to be able to make that sketch in
just a few moments.

you simply can't blame or fault a producer for getting his price,
especially in a market full of costly indulgances ogled by a
consumer base that oftens just wants to be like mike atmo.

[Too Tall]

F.Red, Geeze, C.Chance was using that cheap TIG welding too in what???? 1984 ish'. Funny that ;)

Let's raise a toast to every g-d loving man woman and child who makes things with their own two hands. :)

[atmo]

F.Red, Geeze, C.Chance was using that cheap TIG welding too in what???? 1984 ish'. Funny that ;)

Let's raise a toast to every g-d loving man woman and child who makes things with their own two hands. :)
it wasn't 84, but it was the 80s iirc. no matter - his babtism in
it was tethered to helfrich who, as an arrowsmith roadie, knew
about metal joining and was bound to no bicycle industry convention.
anyway, nothing makes me puke than opinions about joining processes,
as if one is actually better than another atmo.

[fiamme red]

i know you're a vintage buff so i'll recount that
anecdote about rebour getting flak for asking ___ french
francs for a sketch that took a few moments - his reply
was that it took 30 years to be able to make that sketch in
just a few moments.http://www.theephemera.org/comment2.html

“Now, Mr. Whistler. Can you tell me how long it took you to knock off that nocturne?”
. . . . “I beg your pardon?” (Laughter.)
“Oh! I am afraid that I am using a term that applies rather perhaps to my own work. I should have said, How long did you take to paint that picture?”
“Oh, no! permit me, I am too greatly flattered to think that you apply, to work of mine, any term that you are in the habit of using with reference to your own. Let us say then how long did it take to – ‘knock off,’ I think that is it – to knock off that nocturne; well, as well as I remember, about a day.”
“Only a day?”
“Well, I won’t be quite positive; I may have still put a few more touches to it the next day if the painting were not dry. I had better say then, that I was two days at work on it.”
“Oh, two days! The labour of two days, then, is that for which you ask two hundred guineas!”
“No; – I ask it for the knowledge of a lifetime.”
(Applause.)

[djg]

If I had the choice between a Pegoretti frame with bad welds and a nice ride quality and a Strong or Sycip with good welds and similar ride quality but for half the price, don't blame me if I chose the latter.

So ... nothing against your choices at all, but what do you mean by "good welds" and "bad welds"? One obvious guess, here, would be the difference between welds that are structurally sound and ones that are unsound (or potentially unsound), but I gather you're not suggesting that the difference between any of these three builders is the difference between sound welds and ones that are liable to fail. On the internet, I've come across many folks who seem to judge welded bikes by the apparent or cosmetic smoothness or evenness of of the weld bead, as drawn, or maybe as filed or filled or what have you. Maybe that's what you're after, here, although I suppose I might be wrong about that. Each of us is entitled to his or her own aesthetic preferences, I suppose. If that's yours, well ok then.

For me, it's the sort of thing that enters into the equation only at a certain level. It's not that I don't count the looks, and it's not that I don't see the welds ever when I see the looks, but even if I'm just looking, I'm much more likely to focus on the overall structure first, structural details and/or paint second, then setup if the bike is built up, and the smoothness of the weld bead either as an afterthought, or in the event that it's so gloppy or uneven that it distracts me from the other things. That is, for my own personal gestalt thing, really smooth and/or even is a minor plus when it's very, very good, and a significant minus when it's very, very rough, but mostly not a big deal, even before I ask how a bike behaves. The steel Pegorettis I've seen don't fall into either extreme pile. For that matter, neither do the TIG welded Serottas I've seen.

Again, I don't know anybody who'd blame you for choosing a Strong for any number of reasons. I don't know the builder myself, but he seems to be well regarded by folks on this board and others, and anybody might prefer to deal with him (a) in person, (b) maybe more easily by telephone or other means, given that he's in the US and, for some US riders, close by, (c) less expensive than one or another alternative, (d) some other reason, or (e) some mixture of a-d. Why not? Ride what you like, and by all accounts I've heard this is a fine choice.

The puzzle, though, is with disparaging bikes and/or builders with which, or with whom, you may be less familiar, or disparaging other riders for seeing something very cool in something that doesn't quite float your own private boat.

I've got no horse in this race. I'm not any of the people mentioned myself, and my own rides include a Colnago and a couple of steel Serottas, but no Pegorettis, Strongs, or Sycips. I have two good local friends with Pegs (one has and races a Palosanto, one has a Marcello which he races occasionally and an 8:30 he races more frequently) and they love the bikes, which look very cool to me. I've thrown a leg over a Marcello which fit me reasonably well, and without getting it dialed in or borrowing it for any real length of time, I have to say that it seemed really right to me. If I were in the market yet again, there's no way I'd leave Pegoretti off the short list, but if you don't want one that's ok by me.

BTW: I'm with DP, in that I see these things as subject to aesthetic appreciation, but not as art. But to think about art for a second, Rembrandt's paint gets thick and textural in places, and his brushwork loose. Not twentieth century textural, by any means, but you can see the paint as paint. Does that make him a worse painter than all the minor Russian icon painters who produced detailed pictures with smooth, planar surfaces? Some folks who like pictures would answer "um ... no."

[fiamme red]

So ... nothing against your choices at all, but what do you mean by "good welds" and "bad welds"? One obvious guess, here, would be the difference between welds that are structurally sound and ones that are unsound (or potentially unsound), but I gather you're not suggesting that the difference between any of these three builders is the difference between sound welds and ones that are liable to fail. On the internet, I've come across many folks who seem to judge welded bikes by the apparent or cosmetic smoothness or evenness of of the weld bead, as drawn, or maybe as filed or filled or what have you. Maybe that's what you're after, here, although I suppose I might be wrong about that. Each of us is entitled to his or her own aesthetic preferences, I suppose. If that's yours, well ok then.You're right, I should have said "good-looking" and "bad-looking" welds.

I think Pegorettis are fine bikes. I just get a little annoyed at the cult following (very vocal on this forum) which claims that not only do they have a "magical" ride, but they are works of great art, which you have to be a philistine not to appreciate.

[Archibald]

ogled by a consumer base that oftens just wants to be like mike atmo.

When I was little I didn't wanna be like Mike
I wanted to be like Ike
Cause
Papa Was A Rolling Stone in the sixties
And he liked green just like Bill Bixby
Told me that my best friend was a ten and a twenty
Pockets never skinny
Played let's get it on in the living room
And when he got drunk
You'd better give him room
Cause he'll turn the party out sayin,
"This is MY muthafockin house"
And y'all gots to go
Through the door
And if you can't find the door
He'll help you with the four-four
Talkin much shet on the grass
And straight down to blast
I'm still in my p.j.'s
He's in a turtleneck sweater
And we down for whatever....

[atmo]

http://www.theephemera.org/comment2.html

“No; – I ask it for the knowledge of a lifetime.”
(Applause.)
so - you do get it after all atmo.
take or leave the painting.
take or leave the bicycle.
it's all the same at the end of the day.

[catulle]

F.Red, Geeze, C.Chance was using that cheap TIG welding too in what???? 1984 ish'. Funny that ;)

Let's raise a toast to every g-d loving man woman and child who makes things with their own two hands. :)

:banana:

[zeroking17]

Thanks to fiamme red for posting the link to this: http://www.theephemera.org/comment2.html

The T.S. Eliot quote is spine-tingling:

I am moved by fancies that are curled
Around these images, and cling:
The notion of some infinitely gentle
Infinitely suffering thing.


If these lines make Pegoretti's work more approachable, then don't be afraid to lose yourself in the gaze.

[catulle]

I vote for Grant to head the Philosophy Department at Provo.

[Ginger]

Lyrical.

And I'm not talking about the paint.
(I'm not one of the cool kids. I just know bikes I like to look at even if they were flat black primer and bikes that I would like to ride. I wouldn't say I'm fond of several of the other Pegs...the Marcelo was close...this one, outside the carbon fork, is to me visually lyrical. I like it.)

[1centaur]

I hate to be so mundane in a thread so adept at flights of fancy of various sorts, but...

"lowering" the top tube is good why? Stiffer triangle? Lower center of gravity? I'm not implying at all that it's not a wonderful innovation that others have foolishly failed to copy, but when someone hangs it out there without explanation and only the cool kids at the lunch table "get it" I have to wonder, not at their opinion as much as the fact itself, which Dario has undoubtedly explained along the way but I just missed.

BTW - Obtuse doesn't seem like a kid who was at the cool kids lunch table in high school - evil geniuses rarely are.

[davids]

So it's all about the ride now? I thought that these bikes were not just tools, but art? In fact, someone said it in this thread.
The art is in the ride, atmo. The art is in the years of experience that allows a great craftsperson to create a tool that is perfectly suited to the task.

The paint, the welds, are secondary and superficial. But that's not to say they're not part of the whole, and that they don't form components of your experience.

Dario's paint is unique. I often dig the schemes in a big way. Sometimes I don't. But they're the icing on the cake either way.

(And you can apply my comments to any great bike, atmo. Start with Serottas.)

[obtuse]

BTW - Obtuse doesn't seem like a kid who was at the cool kids lunch table in high school - evil geniuses rarely are.

i went to a belgian parochial school for high-school.....we sat in alphabetical order....

plus no one is cool while eating horsemeat with day old bearnaise sauce.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

Cool analogy. I'm going to use that in the future and not give you any credit.

:banana:

just don't steal my peach...


g

[amg]

I hate to be so mundane in a thread so adept at flights of fancy of various sorts, but...

"lowering" the top tube is good why? Stiffer triangle? Lower center of gravity? I'm not implying at all that it's not a wonderful innovation that others have foolishly failed to copy, but when someone hangs it out there without explanation and only the cool kids at the lunch table "get it" I have to wonder, not at their opinion as much as the fact itself, which Dario has undoubtedly explained along the way but I just missed.

BTW - Obtuse doesn't seem like a kid who was at the cool kids lunch table in high school - evil geniuses rarely are.

I believe the top tube is lowered both to create a stiffer front triangle as well as a slightly lower center of gravity. Whenever you lower a good portion of the mass of a moving vehicle, whether it be bike or auto, you invariably lower the center of gravity. For example, BMW's new I believe M6 coupé (French spelling, yo) has a carbon fiber roof for this very reason, to lower the COG.

Antonio

[amg]

I hate to get analytical when there is so much love (#3) in this thread, but:

The angles and lengths of stock Pegs in my size are almost identical to most of my bikes, in particular the ones I specified - extremely middle of the fairway measurements.

The tube widths, other than recent chainstays, have also always been pretty typical.

The HT stack is certainly long - yet to understand why that is good unless you want to ride a small frame for your size and don't like spacers.

The welding I have seen on Pegs looks fine, no better than Moots for sure.

Therefore I think the magic of Pegs cannot be in the visual (unless one loves the paint) but in the riding, which would reflect on tube choice/specification and possibly joining technique, both done with the goal of riding pleasure as well as function in a way that small shops can do better than designers setting up production runs in Asia. I think once one has ridden a certain bike, the aesthetics of its look take on a different meaning to the rider. For example, my Crumpton. Nick's tube joints flow smoothly through transitions as no other custom carbon bike does, and I believe Nick specified the tubes to produce very specific ride qualities that I enjoy (it's my number one bike). Now when I look at it those tubes and joins convey the impression of careful rightness in a way I bet they would not if I saw the bike leaning against a wall for the first time. Obtuse and dbrk, to pick two, have ridden Pegs and met the man, and I believe that affects how they see the frame. For those of us who have not done either, it looks pretty ordinary apart from the paint.

As for the one-man explanation, I suggest that tons of small steel frame builders fit most of the characteristics being praised in the case of this Peg. Their angles and tube proportions would be very close to these, their care and thought in construction much the same. If this Peg exceeds that standard, it will be due to closer knowledge of these new tubes than others enjoy.

Comparing the welds of a Moots, to a Pegoretti is an apples and oranges comparison. Typically Ti is welded in a two pass sequence. The first pass fuses the Ti tubes together and fills in the weld with a bit of material from the welding rod. The second pass does more of the same, but it gives the welder the opportunity to really "dress" the weld nicely and give it a very nice finished appearance. Moots does fantastic welding, but welding steel is slightly different.

When welding a steel frame, only one pass is made with the welding torch and rod. The welder has fuse the tubes properly, fill in the weld and do it neatly and cleanly - not easy. In my opinion, Dario is a master at this and one of the best in the business. His welds are strong, clean and beautiful, IMHO.

I really wouldn't call the tube diameters of a Pegoretti typical; they certainly weren't typical when Dario began developing the tubesets for frame such as the Marcelo and later it's variants, the GGM, the Big Leg Emma and now the Responsorium. For example a typical oversize (OS) down tube for a steel frame is about 31.7 mm. The down tube of the Marcelo for example is 38.0 mm. Typical seat tube diameter is 28.6mm, where as the seat tube for the Marcelo for example again is, 31.7mm. You can see how Dario has pushed the envelope with increasing tube diameters, using lighter, thinner wall tubing, yet maintaining a dependable, strong, efficient and comfortable frame set. Engineering triumphs if you ask me.

Antonio

[manet]

Typically Ti is welded in a two pass sequence. The first pass fuses the Ti tubes together and fills in the weld with a bit of material from the welding rod. The second pass does more of the same, but it gives the welder the opportunity to really "dress" the weld nicely and give it a very nice finished appearance. Antonio

yes.

and there is a frame builder among us that gets it done in one pass.

[atmo]

yes.

and there is a frame builder among us that gets it done in one pass.
di niro
the deer hunter
one shot
classic atmo

[manet]

d' near yo?


not too far. niro where they shot the film.

[catulle]

Welding with one pass is like painting with water colors: You can't hide your mistakes.

[gdw]

Di Niro dropped that elk with one shot. Very impressive. :D

[atmo]

Di Niro dropped that elk with one shot. Very impressive. :D
di niro gets it atmo.

[Ginger]

Welding with one pass is like painting with water colors: You can't hide your mistakes.

Odd...I've looked at a few welds on a Pegoretti (it's the farmer side coming out...I might not like a bike, but I'll check out the welds...). I'm no expert, but I've not seen anything I'd call a weld "error". Not saying the builder doesn't make any. I have seen variance in keeping with a weld done by hand rather than machine.

[manet]

Welding with one pass is like painting with water colors: You can't hide your mistakes.









http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/IMG_1015_1.jpg

[catulle]

:hello:

[bcm119]

Di Niro dropped that elk with one shot. Very impressive. :D
what pisses me off about that film is that we are supposed to believe thats pennsylvania?

[manet]

what pisses me off about that film is that we are supposed to believe thats pennsylvania?


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077416/trivia

[pdxmech13]

di niro
the deer hunter
one shot
classic atmo

Quote of the year yo !
See you in Provo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

You're right, I should have said "good-looking" and "bad-looking" welds.

I think Pegorettis are fine bikes. I just get a little annoyed at the cult following (very vocal on this forum) which claims that not only do they have a "magical" ride, but they are works of great art, which you have to be a philistine not to appreciate.

You have said it better than I could. The implication that the rest of us are just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the "art" of Pegoretti comes across to me as a bit snobbish. Nothing personal against dbrk or Obtuse--I respect their experience greatly--but I just can't share in the orgasmic writhing over this bike when NOBODY has ridden one, no matter WHICH forum members may wax lyrical over it's flawless welds, it's feeling of "rightness," or it's supposedly sublime paint job.

If you're going to go to a show as big as Interbike and proclaim some particular item as "best in show," then there needs to be some objective reason and evidence for that--like a test ride. It can't just be because the builder is a colorful personality with a cool ponytail who can do funky paintjobs.

It's a BIKE, people. It ain't tablets brought down from the mountain. Don't tell me how great it is when NOBODY has ridden one just because the builder has a good record! Well-established companies with good records in many fields come out with stinker products all the time. Go look at the CPSC recall page if you don't believe me.

Maybe that makes me a Phillistine--I'll live with it.

BBD

[H.Frank Beshear]

yes.

and there is a frame builder among us that gets it done in one pass.

There can be only one.. Atmo

[atmo]

You have said it better than I could. The implication that the rest of us are just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the "art" of Pegoretti comes across to me as a bit snobbish. Nothing personal against dbrk or Obtuse--I respect their experience greatly--but I just can't share in the orgasmic writhing over this bike when NOBODY has ridden one, no matter WHICH forum members may wax lyrical over it's flawless welds, it's feeling of "rightness," or it's supposedly sublime paint job.

If you're going to go to a show as big as Interbike and proclaim some particular item as "best in show," then there needs to be some objective reason and evidence for that--like a test ride. It can't just be because the builder is a colorful personality with a cool ponytail who can do funky paintjobs.

It's a BIKE, people. It ain't tablets brought down from the mountain. Don't tell me how great it is when NOBODY has ridden one just because the builder has a good record! Well-established companies with good records in many fields come out with stinker products all the time. Go look at the CPSC recall page if you don't believe me.

Maybe that makes me a Phillistine--I'll live with it.

BBD


Whisper words of wisdom, let it bee.
ps dave
-----> :)

[Ginger]

no matter WHICH forum members may wax lyrical

My...that's awfully bitter over a bike.


You know...the most interesting discussion the technicalities of welding, qualities of welds, second passes, machine control vs. human control and the difference each made in a weld and how it affected the metal in a joint on a bike that I've ever heard was between Ben Serotta and a local welder/bike club guy. It was interesting because both of them knew what they were talking about.

[obtuse]

You have said it better than I could. The implication that the rest of us are just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the "art" of Pegoretti comes across to me as a bit snobbish. Nothing personal against dbrk or Obtuse--I respect their experience greatly--but I just can't share in the orgasmic writhing over this bike when NOBODY has ridden one, no matter WHICH forum members may wax lyrical over it's flawless welds, it's feeling of "rightness," or it's supposedly sublime paint job.

If you're going to go to a show as big as Interbike and proclaim some particular item as "best in show," then there needs to be some objective reason and evidence for that--like a test ride. It can't just be because the builder is a colorful personality with a cool ponytail who can do funky paintjobs.

It's a BIKE, people. It ain't tablets brought down from the mountain. Don't tell me how great it is when NOBODY has ridden one just because the builder has a good record! Well-established companies with good records in many fields come out with stinker products all the time. Go look at the CPSC recall page if you don't believe me.

Maybe that makes me a Phillistine--I'll live with it.

BBD

why would you need to ride it? what would a test ride tell you? i've seen the specs to the tubeset, have owned and ridden on numerous pegorettis, i know his history as a builder and i have seen the bike in question and i concur with my pal dbrk that it was the best thing at that show. when ferrari unveils a new f1 car would you need to take it out for a "test ride" before you could be enamored with the technology and the history and the know-how and the hard work both manual and imaginative that went into its creation?

i like it because its a bike made by my friend who is better at what he does than just about anyone in the world is at what they do. the paint job shows more of my friend and proves to me that he put 100% of his efforts and himself into it. that's enough to convince me....i don't need to to test ride it. but you dave probably should; i think its qualities wouldn't be lost on you and that's the truth.

obtuse


ps this is all rubish about single pass versus double pass welds. when you've made 10s of thousands of frames no matter who you are you're more than adept at joining pipes together.....that's just one small part. any of these builders could fit in quite easily on technical skill at pretty much any of the others frame shops.

[gdw]

" i've seen the specs to the tubeset, have owned and ridden on numerous pegorettis, i know his history as a builder and i have seen the bike in question and i concur with my pal dbrk that it was the best thing at that show."

Thank you for your opinion but Dave has a valid point. The bike and tubing are untested.

[bcm119]

"I woke up one morning and all of my stuff had been stolen. . . and replaced by exact duplicates. " -Steven Wright

[Ginger]

but Dave has a valid point. The bike and tubing are untested.

I'm sorry to disagree. I suspect that bike, well, perhaps not *that* specific bike, but that bike design and that specific material have probably been tested quite a bit. By the builder himself.

So. Yes. I would agree with "Untested by all but one person who posts on this forum who hasn't posted on this thread."

Let's think about this for a moment.
The people who are most adamant that the bike must be good, are people who have ridden and have liked this particular builder's bikes. They have discussed those same bikes with this builder so they have a common set of meanings for the values of the bike and its characteristics based on their discussions of the other bikes the builder has built for them out of other materials. If, through their examination of the bike, and their discussion with the builder they come to this opinion that the bike is good...for them, they're probably correct.

[vaxn8r]

why would you need to ride it? what would a test ride tell you? ....
+1

[jpw]

I would not say it is "better" than any of the other Dario bikes but it has two wonderful features that set it apart: first, this new stainless steel from Columbus has lovely proportions and the particular tubes that Dario picked not only insure a fantastic ride---nimble, compliant, right---but also superb proportions and stance. The bike looks balanced, whole, each tube's diameter flowing properly into the next: traditional but moving forward into the present tastes and forms. Second, if you care about such things, you save about 400g from the Marcelo, at least that is what I remember.

I would be delighted to see mine in black with just a soft pink bici scheme...hmm.

dbrk

Is this Columbus stainless steel the equivalent of the new Reynolds 953 stainless steel that was mentioned on IF? If so, does the Responsorium (?) represent Dario's mastery of this new tubeset?

[1centaur]

amg's responses to my questions to my questions were very helpful. I certainly had not focused on tube diameter per material as opposed to in general - I should have. As for welding in one or two goes, I suspect there's more to be said but that was interesting too.

I have told myself I would not buy another metal bike, failing to see a reason for me to like one more than CF, but paint is a weakness of mine and lightness along with craftsmanship might get me in the ballpark. I look forward to hearing how this frame rides, though I suspect the reporters will indeed like it - I think I have only ever heard one negative report on a Peg.

[Tom]

It's a BIKE, people.

BBD

It's more about lunch.

But to bring it back to the bike in question here's what I think. Dario Pegoretti makes bikes. He makes really good bikes. Every now and then, sometimes fairly often, he's an artist that works in the medium of bikes. I think I've seen a couple of times on this board people describing Serottas as rideable art. If it applies there, I sure think that from what I've seen of this one it applies here too. Just my opinion.

Art can be in a lot of mediums. My wife's childhood friend is a fiber artist. I bet when you think of a quilt, this isn't what might come to mind.

[cs124]

Is this Columbus stainless steel the equivalent of the new Reynolds 953 stainless steel that was mentioned on IF? If so, does the Responsorium (?) represent Dario's mastery of this new tubeset?

I suppose the two are market competitors, if not direct equivalents.

Different material composition, construction technique and physical properties.

Columbus XCR has lower tenstile and yield strength than Reynolds 953.

XCR tubes are seamless, made by pushing a solid bar of steel through a die. 953 is seamed, made by bending a flat sheet around a bar, electro-resistance welding the edges together and drawing the resulting tube over a mandrel to ensure straightness and roundness.

No idea which tubeset is "better".

Others can surely comment on what the Responsorium frame represents.

[catulle]

I eat fiber in the morning...

[Tom]

I eat fiber in the morning...

You must be in your brown period.

[William]

http://www.geocities.com/serenadetx/images/elvis01.jpg

[BigDaddySmooth]

When it comes to frames and the building of said frames, it all boils down to "this is this, this isn't something else, this is THIS"

[atmo]

When it comes to frames and the building of said frames, it all boils down to "this is this, this isn't something else, this is THIS"

yeah that -
get in touch with your inner dear hunter.
potm atmo.

[catulle]

I bet he'd like Dario's bikes and wine, atmo...

[jpw]

Back to Pegoretti please.

An interesting discussion of the merits of Columbus XCR and 953.

http://www.frameforum.net/forum2/index.php?showtopic=2174&pid=10721&st=0&#entry10721

[atmo]

Back to Pegoretti please.

An interesting discussion of the merits of Columbus XCR and 953.

http://www.frameforum.net/forum2/index.php?showtopic=2174&pid=10721&st=0&#entry10721
that framebuilder that posted (http://www.frameforum.net/forum2/index.php?s=&showtopic=2174&view=findpost&p=10678) gets it atmo.

[Kines]

. . . I am also acutely aware that there is a certain element of "cool kids lunch table" at work here on the forum BBD
hilariously true of almost every thread on this forum!!!
the really cool kids say "atmo"
TFDGM

[dbrk]

hilariously true of almost every thread on this forum!!!
the really cool kids say "atmo"
TFDGM

atmo.

dbrk

[Too Tall]

Doug, you've got a bugger...yeah...no a little to the left ;)

I never was cool. ATNO

[Tom]

I think it's time to bend over a new page... I mean roll a new leaf... I mean... oh, hell, where are my pills? Who took my pills away again?

[zeroking17]

<snip>
I am also acutely aware that there is a certain element of "cool kids lunch table" at work here on the forum more often than I'd like. <snip>
BBD


Hey Dave, grab a tray. You can sit next to me. I'm the one wearing the really cool t-shirt.

[zap]

hilariously true of almost every thread on this forum!!!
the really cool kids say "atmo"
TFDGM

They do?

Just listen to the street.

They get it.

[catulle]

I think it's time to bend over a new page... I mean roll a new leaf... I mean... oh, hell, where are my pills? Who took my pills away again?

Have some fiber...

[catulle]

that framebuilder that posted (http://www.frameforum.net/forum2/index.php?s=&showtopic=2174&view=findpost&p=10678) gets it atmo.

.

[Fixed]

bohemian bike builder ?
cheers

[Redturbo]

Who took my pills away again?[/QUOTE]
T.O.

[gdw]

"XCR, at the moment is little more than a design concept. One set of tubes has been produced by the manufacturers in France, to Pegoretti's dimensions. A frame has been been displayed, allegedly from these tubes, which under close inspection appeared to be chromed and not polished SS. There has been no firm notification on the dimensions and profiles to be produced and no delivery dates confirmed. Yes, there will be Columbus distributors who will tell you it will be readily available from stock, but until tubes start rolling off production lines, XCR is, for all intents and purposes, fiction. "

Thanks for the link.

[swoop]

"XCR, at the moment is little more than a design concept. One set of tubes has been produced by the manufacturers in France, to Pegoretti's dimensions. A frame has been been displayed, allegedly from these tubes, which under close inspection appeared to be chromed and not polished SS. There has been no firm notification on the dimensions and profiles to be produced and no delivery dates confirmed. Yes, there will be Columbus distributors who will tell you it will be readily available from stock, but until tubes start rolling off production lines, XCR is, for all intents and purposes, fiction. "

Thanks for the link.

that's the chrome frame that was in the tube manufacturers display..

[Birddog]

Thanks for letting me sit at the lunch table, it was really interesting listening to all you guys. I packed a big lunch and as a result had my mouth full till now and now it's time to go back to work, bummer. Maybe I'll go deer hunting after work.

Birddog

[ClutchCargo]

I bet he'd like Dario's bikes and wine, atmo...

think of the helmet hair on that guy !


;)



Ride on (relatively speaking)!

[dirtdigger88]

this whole lunch room thing we have going here . . .

dont you people know that the REALLY cool cats were down in the parking lot getting high during lunch- they werent worried about what table to sit at

Im just saying-

Jason

[manet]

this whole lunch room thing we have going here . . .

dont you people know that the REALLY cool cats were down in the parking lot getting high during lunch- they werent worried about what table to sit at

Im just saying-

Jason

i sat by myself, angled just so,
able to peer into the girls shirts.

other days i just plotted my trajectory.

[Fixed]

the real reason for art class drawing 2
cheers

[Matt Barkley]

If you don't line the paintjob - there was an unpainted Respnse*SS in the Columbus booth at Interbike - sorry I have no picture to post - though I am sure someone does.

Agreed that there is a cool kids table on this forum - AND definitely agreed there is / has been "stealth marketing" going on this Serotta Forum.

Disclosure - my shop sells Pegorettis - but man, is this a Pegoretti fan club and a place for small psudo-businesses to market and test their ideas and try to sell to forum members? I do not think it is - or should be.

Some bikes ride great, others don't. Proportions, materials, paintjobs, all are worth discussing... In My Humble Opinion it ain't about proving through typing-out on the Internet and this forum how these bikes ride. Let those discover for themselves out on the rode and let's all have a good ride. :beer:

[Len J]

and I've read several things that resonate with me, on both sides of the discussion.

Upon reflection, I think I come down on the side of trusting the builder.

I've ridden bikes for 30+ years, unfortunatly most of those years were either growing up in abject poverty or struggling to raise a family. It's only in the last 5 years or so that I've had the financial wherewithall, to really experience the difference between a means of transportation and something that is just "Right". ATMO uses the word gestalt....Obtuse clearly knows it when he experiences it.....as does Swoop & Grant and DBRK. Whatever it is, I've begun to get fleeting personal glimpses of it.....and have "Known" it when I felt it. It's part of what I enjoy about riding...........It's the art and the craftsmanship and the sum total of the builders knowledge translated into a solution for one problem......be it a racing bike, or a touring bike or something else......and when it works...WOW.

What I've also learned over the past few years (and am still learning) is what works for me and what doesn't.....I've listened to many posters on this board and made decisions based on things people have said, and in some cases it's worked for me, and some times not. Based on that, I've learned whose opinions I should listen to to increase the probability that something will work for me. (No right or wrong, but what works for me).

Obtuses evaluation of the quality or efficacy of a racing frame is much more valuable to me than my own limited test ride.

ATMO's opinion of Gestalt.......well, there are very few things that he likes that I've experienced that I don't also like.

DBRK's sense of balance in a bike mirrors what works for me.

Climb's opinion of the man is something I would trust.

I could go on, but I'm getting DBRKish (Couldn't resist Douglas :) ) Suffice it to say............Trust is a hugh part of a purchase like this...at least for me it is.

BTW, I like the paint.

Len

[Grant McLean]

I've ridden bikes for 30+ years, ....
What I've also learned over the past few years (and am still learning) is what works for me and what doesn't....
Len


Great post. I think Dario could say the same about his craft.

g

[vaxn8r]

...DBRK's sense of balance in a bike mirrors what works for me.....
Len
You said "bike mirrors". Please let's don't start that again ;)

[Louis]

You said "bike mirrors". Please let's don't start that again ;)

Good one !

[bcm119]

this whole lunch room thing we have going here . . .

dont you people know that the REALLY cool cats were down in the parking lot getting high during lunch- they werent worried about what table to sit at

Im just saying-

Jason
It takes a really long time for everyone else to figure that out. You can't blame 'em, they're late bloomers.

[Climb01742]

So ... nothing against your choices at all, but what do you mean by "good welds" and "bad welds"? One obvious guess, here, would be the difference between welds that are structurally sound and ones that are unsound (or potentially unsound), but I gather you're not suggesting that the difference between any of these three builders is the difference between sound welds and ones that are liable to fail. On the internet, I've come across many folks who seem to judge welded bikes by the apparent or cosmetic smoothness or evenness of of the weld bead, as drawn, or maybe as filed or filled or what have you. Maybe that's what you're after, here, although I suppose I might be wrong about that. Each of us is entitled to his or her own aesthetic preferences, I suppose. If that's yours, well ok then.

For me, it's the sort of thing that enters into the equation only at a certain level. It's not that I don't count the looks, and it's not that I don't see the welds ever when I see the looks, but even if I'm just looking, I'm much more likely to focus on the overall structure first, structural details and/or paint second, then setup if the bike is built up, and the smoothness of the weld bead either as an afterthought, or in the event that it's so gloppy or uneven that it distracts me from the other things. That is, for my own personal gestalt thing, really smooth and/or even is a minor plus when it's very, very good, and a significant minus when it's very, very rough, but mostly not a big deal, even before I ask how a bike behaves. The steel Pegorettis I've seen don't fall into either extreme pile. For that matter, neither do the TIG welded Serottas I've seen.

Again, I don't know anybody who'd blame you for choosing a Strong for any number of reasons. I don't know the builder myself, but he seems to be well regarded by folks on this board and others, and anybody might prefer to deal with him (a) in person, (b) maybe more easily by telephone or other means, given that he's in the US and, for some US riders, close by, (c) less expensive than one or another alternative, (d) some other reason, or (e) some mixture of a-d. Why not? Ride what you like, and by all accounts I've heard this is a fine choice.

The puzzle, though, is with disparaging bikes and/or builders with which, or with whom, you may be less familiar, or disparaging other riders for seeing something very cool in something that doesn't quite float your own private boat.

I've got no horse in this race. I'm not any of the people mentioned myself, and my own rides include a Colnago and a couple of steel Serottas, but no Pegorettis, Strongs, or Sycips. I have two good local friends with Pegs (one has and races a Palosanto, one has a Marcello which he races occasionally and an 8:30 he races more frequently) and they love the bikes, which look very cool to me. I've thrown a leg over a Marcello which fit me reasonably well, and without getting it dialed in or borrowing it for any real length of time, I have to say that it seemed really right to me. If I were in the market yet again, there's no way I'd leave Pegoretti off the short list, but if you don't want one that's ok by me.

BTW: I'm with DP, in that I see these things as subject to aesthetic appreciation, but not as art. But to think about art for a second, Rembrandt's paint gets thick and textural in places, and his brushwork loose. Not twentieth century textural, by any means, but you can see the paint as paint. Does that make him a worse painter than all the minor Russian icon painters who produced detailed pictures with smooth, planar surfaces? Some folks who like pictures would answer "um ... no."

+1. well put.

[taz-t]

Just a few pictures from the Vegas show. Very, very few bikes inspired and excited me and by far my favorite was the new Pegoretti Responsorium.

dbrk

The surprising thing (to me) is that Dr. B. didn't pick the Gilles Berthoud...

- taz

[dbrk]

The surprising thing (to me) is that Dr. B. didn't pick the Gilles Berthoud... - taz

I spoke with Mr Berthoud and was delighted to see one new product, this pretty much perfect sized bag. I like it because it's smaller than a banana style and larger than just a bullet that won't take just that little more. It uses the quick fix style system.

Otherwise, Berthoud showed nothing new, at least as I remember. So my Best in Show choice went to the bike that incorporated an innovation and struck me as the most balanced, principled, and rooted in its purpose. "Of race bikes in Vegas, I am Pegoretti," which actually appears as a missing verse of the 10th chapter of the Bhagavadgita ("...of mountains, I am Himalaya, I am Time and the End of Time, of rivers Ganga, etc...").


Had Rivendell brought one of its Legolas or A. Homer Hilsen bikes, I mean those are beautiful too though made for a different style of riding. But Riv had no reason to show in Vegas. It was delightful to see Grant, Brian, and Rich.

I missed Serotta, 'cause I love'em.

dbrk

[zeroking17]

Just a few pictures from the Vegas show. Very, very few bikes inspired and excited me and by far my favorite was the new Pegoretti Responsorium.
That's Steve and Dario...

dbrk


http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=261040&postcount=111

.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that Serotta was not present at Interbike, given their new HSG program, which I would think they would want to promote.

Has anyone seen anything said "officially" as to why they were not there?

Serotta Andrew? . . .

BBD

[Grant McLean]

. . . that Serotta was not present at Interbike, given their new HSG program, which I would think they would want to promote.

Has anyone seen anything said "officially" as to why they were not there?

Serotta Andrew? . . .

BBD

The "trade show" as a concept seems to work best for exhibitors who are
looking for new clients. Since most major brands aren't looking for more
dealers, at least not ones that haven't planned their business beyond wandering
around vegas looking for free swag...

So showing your wares is an awefully expensive way to communicate with
your exsisting customers. I remember Serotta explaining this a few years
ago when they started to move away from the standard 'booth' format.
They gave fit lectures, and had meetings in groups in smaller spaces.

For retailers, the "trade show" is a great way to see many products in a
short period of time, and to collect pricelists and catalogs from many vendors
some of which you may or may not do business with already. But it's getting
harder and harder to manage. Large lines like Trek or Specialized can't
possibly show all their bikes to dealers in a stardard hour appointment.
The big boys invite their top accounts to pre-season launches, where it
often takes 2 full days just to see all the bikes.

It seems the show season is changing, as the deadlines for ordering product
get earlier and earlier, and some products are already available for sale
in stores by the time the tradeshow even comes around. It's possible that
in the near future, a different system will be the norm.

g

[BumbleBeeDave]

It makes perfect sense when you explain it like that. What do you think might evolve to replace it? The trade show route still seems to make sense for the smaller and medium sized companies . . .

BBD

[Grant McLean]

It makes perfect sense when you explain it like that. What do you think might evolve to replace it? The trade show route still seems to make sense for the smaller and medium sized companies . . .

BBD


The trend is factory tours and open houses. Not unlike the get-togethers
of our on-line pals, it's a great opportunity to get to know the people that you
have this "relationship" with. The product part isn't that hard, it's all the
other stuff that goes into a successful business partnership.

I'm kinda old-school, and I don't like to change brands with a flavor of the
month attitude. But I still really like the tradeshow format, becuase we get to
talk to other retailers, see who has a busy booth, who doesn't (caugh- litespeed)
and get a vibe of what the stories for the upcoming season are, even things
like colour trends. It's also great to peek at brands we don't carry, just to
know what the competition will be up to.

So I hope the show format will be around for a while, and i think it will be, but I
think it will change in size. This year there was no Cannondale, no Trek
(which means no LeMond, Fisher, Klein, Bontrager, or Nike either) and
Specialized had about 1/10 of their normal presentation. There has been
a lot of consolidation in the industry in the last 5 years or so, since Schwinn
and GT thing imploded, and the shift from the focus on Mtb's to road bikes.
There are new guys, but there is a pretty good size chunk of business being
done by just a few players.

It's great to see a show like the Handmade bikeshow doing well. Although
this is a consumer show, I think it embodies a lot of the energy and spirit
that Interbike used to have a few years ago. Shows are a complex thing
becuase there are so many different needs coming together into one time
and place. As the bigger guys get bigger, and the smaller guys try to find
some roots, everyone needs a chance to get their day in the sun.

g

[bostondrunk]

You have said it better than I could. The implication that the rest of us are just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the "art" of Pegoretti comes across to me as a bit snobbish. Nothing personal against dbrk or Obtuse--I respect their experience greatly--but I just can't share in the orgasmic writhing over this bike when NOBODY has ridden one, no matter WHICH forum members may wax lyrical over it's flawless welds, it's feeling of "rightness," or it's supposedly sublime paint job.

If you're going to go to a show as big as Interbike and proclaim some particular item as "best in show," then there needs to be some objective reason and evidence for that--like a test ride. It can't just be because the builder is a colorful personality with a cool ponytail who can do funky paintjobs.

It's a BIKE, people. It ain't tablets brought down from the mountain. Don't tell me how great it is when NOBODY has ridden one just because the builder has a good record! Well-established companies with good records in many fields come out with stinker products all the time. Go look at the CPSC recall page if you don't believe me.

Maybe that makes me a Phillistine--I'll live with it.

BBD

+1 atmo bro imho
Paint the word 'Giant' on his frames and most of the people here would think it was crap, test ride or not.

[Grant McLean]

+1 atmo bro imho
Paint the word 'Giant' on his frames and most of the people here would think it was crap, test ride or not.


Here, or everywhere?

I think that Giant had some of the nicest carbon stuff at the show, but you
try selling their $5k bike against a Cervelo...


g

[bostondrunk]

Here, or everywhere?

I think that Giant had some of the nicest carbon stuff at the show, but you
try selling their $5k bike against a Cervelo...


g

I think Giant makes great bikes. Cervelo is the one with a recall. Anyway, I didn't mean everyone, how about just the people here who talk like his frames are the work of god. atmo imho cheers i'm just a meesangers

[Lost Weekend]

who in the hell goes to vegas to look at kids toys anyways?

[stevep]

Here, or everywhere?

I think that Giant had some of the nicest carbon stuff at the show, but you
try selling their $5k bike against a Cervelo...


g

i know that you are not disrespecting giant here grant but their stuff is far better quality than cervelo. giant certainly makes one of the best carbon bikes in the world.
they actually have an engineering department, they actually have a testing department and they actually have their name on the factory door.
never heard of one breaking, they are light, they have well tested these things and i know a lot of riders/racers who really like the bikes.
giant bikes are top notch. they are not low bid anonymous manufacture like some other brands... no offence to any other brands. get a giant. they are great race bikes...you will like it.
ps i have no connection to giant but i have full respect for their products

[saab2000]

I think he was trying to say that selling a Giant is tough against a bike with racing clout, like the Cervelo. The Cervelo has some mystique now because it has been successful in CSC team. Giant is just seen as this huge company with no soul. People want to buy soul. That doesn't mean Giant doesn't make a terrific bike, 'cuz I am sure they do.

Cervelo has done a better job of marketing their racing mystique than has Giant, which clearly knows how to make decent race bikes too.

[Grant McLean]

I think he was trying to say that selling a Giant is tough against a bike with racing clout, like the Cervelo. The Cervelo has some mystique now because it has been successful in CSC team. Giant is just seen as this huge company with no soul. People want to buy soul. That doesn't mean Giant doesn't make a terrific bike, 'cuz I am sure they do.

Cervelo has done a better job of marketing their racing mystique than has Giant, which clearly knows how to make decent race bikes too.


Thanks, that's exactly what i'm saying. Our shop's been a Giant dealer for
14 years. Put Giant decals on a Serotta, and the public wouldn't give it a second look.
It's a funny thing how the public at large perceives "brand".

BostonDrunk's talk about switching decals, well, ya how many people
buy fake designer goods? For most people it's about a logo, that's what
"brand" has been reduced to. The thing is, i wouldn't say that this group
here on the forum is like that at all. I think this group is way more interested
in the the actual details, and knows about 100x more than the guy or gal
that just strolls into a bikeshop and looks at the stickers. So I felt the comment
was unfair. If you don't like Pegorettti's that's fine. But since there are
people here who think they are the cat's meow, calling them sheep for
having that opinion is crazy. It's an obscure brand with about 0.000001%
market share. Lets give the guy a break.

g

[Serpico]

I think that Giant had some of the nicest carbon stuff at the show, but you
try selling their $5k bike against a Cervelo...

i know that you are not disrespecting giant here grant but their stuff is far better quality than cervelo. giant certainly makes one of the best carbon bikes in the world.
they actually have an engineering department, they actually have a testing department and they actually have their name on the factory door.
never heard of one breaking, they are light, they have well tested these things and i know a lot of riders/racers who really like the bikes.
giant bikes are top notch. they are not low bid anonymous manufacture like some other brands... no offence to any other brands. get a giant. they are great race bikes...you will like it.
ps i have no connection to giant but i have full respect for their products

I love straightforward, reasonable and pragmatic opinions like these--and I'm glad to hear that folks as knowledgeable as the both of you, and so involved in "the industry"--are willing to express them (especially on a thread dealing so much with "soul" and other un-measurables--which matter to many of us as fans and enthusiasts of cycling culture, me included, but don't matter to some, which is also fine). Giant does absolutely nothing for me personally/aesthetically in anyway--and I've not even ridden one, but appreciate such level-headedness, considering they are thought of as "entry-level" bikes, while this thread concerns builders working at the highest level.

Over the past few years the emergence of low cost wines have surged in popularity. I'm sure many oenphiles scoff at this trend--but when it comes down to it what is the percentage (if it could even be quantified, which I'm sure it couldn't) between the quality of fine wines and dime wines? Is dime wine (not mad dog :p ) 85% "good" and a nice vintage bordeaux 92% "good"? This are just numbers that are, again--not quanitifiable--but I think you get the point--we are talking about small differences which only matter to a minute subset of people, and much of that difference is tied up in the "cultural" aspect the endeavor (be it fine wines, artisan frames, swiss timepieces, danish furniture, etc).

Having said this, I don't in any way mean to detract from the works of any of these artists, artisans, designers or craftspeople--whatever field or medium they're working in, but most of what we appreciate is only visible to those interested in the culture and the whole experience (this forum) or those pushing the envelope (weight weenies)--but for the other 99% of cyclists it simply isn't relevant.

Do I think a Sachs/Peg/Kirk/Parlee is a better bike--yes, I think they're probably much better bikes. But while it might be 50% to some, it might only be 20% better to another. Much of recognizing the quality is dependent on the user and their level of sophistication.

I'm sure a lot of people just read the preceding paragraphs and thought "Wow, why did I just waste a minute reading that? Did this guy actually think we don't understand that?" but here is my point: I think many of us, myself included--but I try to keep it to myself, have a tendency to scoff at certain aspects of the cycling industry, it's products and it's consumers, but we need to realize that the role cycling does or doesn't play in our life isn't universal. Everyone has passions in life, and for many of the folks out there on a bike--or even dropping in here to ask a quick question--it isn't cycling.

So be careful the next time you scoff at some guy pedalling an aluminum Trek at the local MUP--you might run into him again in the parking lot while he's loading his bike into a Benz AMG and you're loading yours into a station wagon. Everyone is fanatical about different things.
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