Thoughts on Amanda Batty's rant on RKP?

[Gummee]

Link (http://redkiteprayer.com/2018/02/dear-podium-girl/)

Me? That's pretty well the pot calling the kettle black. (hence my post)

I wonder what she'd say if all of her sponsors decided that women's sports doesn't meet their advertising needs and eliminated budgets.

I also have a real hard time with someone telling me that my chosen career is 'bad' for lack of a better word. Shouldn't that be MY decision? See a need, fill a need...

M

[FlashUNC]

The thing about your job, my dear, is that it makes doing MY JOB (that’s based on skill and experience) extremely difficult, on multiple levels. Whether you intend it or not, your lack of contribution and presence undermines my very real contributions to the sport—from contract negotiations to inspiring new generations of athletes who are valued for their athletic prowess instead of their looks, your job has put women who have invested in these sports at risk.

Said it better than I could.

[Gummee]

Said it better than I could.

I don't see how the two are related unless Amanda wants to get into modelling

M

[nighthawk]

Said it better than I could.

Agreed.

And doesn't calling it a "rant" imply that it wasn't well thought out? Reads well articulated to me.

[Gummee]

Agreed.

And doesn't calling it a "rant" imply that it wasn't well thought out? Reads well articulated to me.

It can be a well thought-out and be a rant. The two aren't mutually exclusive

M

[dbnm]

Link?

[Gummee]

link in the OP

and substitute 'favorite bicycle racer'
http://advrider.com/index.php?attachments/fyyff-jpg.1099476/

So explain to me how a professional athlete has any leg to stand on in this one. They're paid entertainers...

M

[Black Dog]

I thought it was well written and backed with some actual evidence for her position. An intelligent and well supported rant. If my daughter ever steps onto a podium I want it to be as an athlete not eye candy.

[Gummee]

I thought it was well written and backed with some actual evidence for her position. An intelligent and well supported rant. If my daughter ever steps onto a podium I want it to be as an athlete not eye candy.

So what happens if she's pretty enough to be a podium girl but not talented enough to win races? Would you begrudge her HER CHOICE to be a podium girl? It's not like they're slaves and have to apply for the job.

M

[ergott]

link in the OP

and substitute 'favorite bicycle racer'
http://advrider.com/index.php?attachments/fyyff-jpg.1099476/

So explain to me how a professional athlete has any leg to stand on in this one. They're paid entertainers...

M

One is an athlete, one is a being treated as a billboard/object with no other entertaining purpose.

Private industries have listened and reacted. There's a growing demand to get rid of the role of a beautiful woman as an object to sell something.

[Gummee]

One is an athlete, one is a being treated as a billboard/object with no other entertaining purpose.Umm think about it... They're ALL billboards and/or entertainment.

It's all how they perceive themselves.

I'd even go so far as to say that at least the podium girls recognize what they are. Pro athletes think they're something other than what they are.

M

[FlashUNC]

I don't see how the two are related unless Amanda wants to get into modelling

M

Alright fine let's lay it out there:

1) The straight male view -- as she points out -- is that women are an unprofitable demographic to be ignored and only presented to use their sexuality to sell a product. Hence, podium girls.

2) With the attitude that the only people interested in watching sports are men -- who of course only want to watch other men -- women's sports are denied the promotion, marketing and support that men's sports used for years to grow. Like, say, an entire newspaper more or less dedicated to convinced the French public this thing called the Tour de France was worth following. Tough to replicate that when the levers of power in the sport are held exclusively by men.

3) As Amanda points out, by having the highest levels of cycling place the most visible portion of women in the sport to, yanno, being podium furniture, it minimizes and marginalizes the attempts by those who do have a craft they're trying to apply to actually grow the sport.

tl;dr: Podium girls are misogynistic and anachronistic and need to be gone yesterday. They emphasize outdated sexist attitudes and marginalize the real accomplishments of those trying to expand women's cycling as a sport.

[Jaybee]

So what happens if she's pretty enough to be a podium girl but not talented enough to win races? Would you begrudge her HER CHOICE to be a podium girl? It's not like they're slaves and have to apply for the job.

M

My daughters, even at 5 and 3, are beautiful, smart, independent, resourceful little people. They can do and be whatever they want, but if they decide that they are no more valuable than their looks, then I have sorely failed as a father.

[Mikej]

Actually, aren't they both entertainers? If you get compensation, you are not an athlete longer.

[Gummee]

My daughters, even at 5 and 3, are beautiful, smart, independent, resourceful little people. They can do and be whatever they want, but if they decide that they are no more valuable than their looks, then I have sorely failed as a father.How do you figure that the two are mutually exclusive?
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podium_girl)

All y'all are marginalizing a group of people that take what they do seriously. Would you like to be treated the same way?

M

edited to add: Don't forget Hedy Lamarr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr)

[Tony T]

And yet, the article includes this at the top to increase clicks:
http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Podium-Girls.jpg

[ergott]

Umm think about it... They're ALL billboards and/or entertainment.


M

Athletes are doing more than just standing around though. Name another occupation that you simply stand around with logos on you. They don't talk, any they are hired because they are attractive to their marketbase (heterosexual men). There's no other skill involved.

I'm believe that's a big enough difference between a podium girl and a mountain bike racer for her opinion to be valid and I know I'm not alone.

We'll have to agree to disagree if you don't see that difference.

[disspence]

The thing about your job, my dear, is that it makes doing MY JOB (that’s based on skill and experience) extremely difficult, on multiple levels.

This , my dear, is so condescending. To claim that podium girls do not have skill or experience is ridiculous. Yes, part of their job is/was based on appearances, but to claim that there is no skill or experience in that position is to objectify the podium girls. Batty commits the same sin she claims only straight men are guilty of.

[MattTuck]

That's pretty harsh.

Agree with several points she makes. Disagree with several.

Agree: "It isn’t, however, your right to be upset when a changing market means that your job title is irrelevant. It also isn’t your right to demand that you get your job back."

Pretty much spot on. Maybe she has a follow on career as a lobbyist for the autonomous driving industry, after they've displaced hundreds of thousands of truck drivers. She certainly has a no nonsense style.

Disagree: "But from a female professional athlete to you, here’s some unsolicited advice: go get a job that relies on expertise outside of your appearance."

I understand she is a downhill MTB rider, and maybe talent/skill can be trained to a larger extent than in road cycling. But let's face it, genetics is the predominant determinant of whether you're capable of making it to the top levels of cycling. To suggest that your natural endowments shouldn't factor into your work is either extremely naive or extremely disingenuous, coming from an athlete.


There does seem to be a tone of hostility throughout the piece. My take is that she believes her job is somehow more honorable or pure because it is an athletic pursuit, and she is more entitled to recognition/acclaim. I can get behind her views with regards to changing tastes and preferences, but I am not ready to accept that podium girls have done any kind of real harm to the sport or economically harmed the female athletes. There is a problem with the system as a whole, and unequal salaries are a symptom of the problem, just as podium girls are a symptom of it.

[ergott]

This , my dear, is so condescending. To claim that podium girls do not have skill or experience is ridiculous. Yes, part of their job is/was based on appearances, but to claim that there is no skill or experience in that position is to objectify the podium girls. Batty commits the same sin she claims only straight men are guilty of.

I'm not claiming a podium girl can't have talent. They might do many other things well, but that particular job?

Perhaps you can tell us what other talents are required for the position?

[Gummee]

Athletes are doing more than just standing around though. Name another occupation that you simply stand around with logos on you. They don't talk, any they are hired because they are attractive to their marketbase (heterosexual men). There's no other skill involved.

I'm believe that's a big enough difference between a podium girl and a mountain bike racer for her opinion to be valid and I know I'm not alone.

We'll have to agree to disagree if you don't see that difference.

Standing around? Rolling around? Driving around? It's all entertainment. How is ANY pro sport anything other than entertainment and/or marketing?

Both podium girls and pro athletes are using their genetics to the best of their ability. I'd also say that both work hard at what they do. There are many more similarities than differences...

M

[jruhlen1980]

If a woman in cycling posts something feminist and a bunch of men don't tell her she's doing it wrong, did it even happen?

[Gummee]

I'm not claiming a podium girl can't have talent. They might do many other things well, but that particular job?

Perhaps you can tell us what other talents are required for the position?

Go look at the wiki piece I linked to

M

[Jaybee]

How do you figure that the two are mutually exclusive?
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podium_girl)

All y'all are marginalizing a group of people that take what they do seriously. Would you like to be treated the same way?

M

edited to add: Don't forget Hedy Lamarr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr)


I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I just think women in general and my daughters in particular have more to contribute to the world than being sex objects.

[Gummee]

If a woman in cycling posts something feminist and a bunch of men don't tell her she's doing it wrong, did it even happen?

She may not be wrong, but the whole tone of the article...

M

[Gummee]

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I just think women in general and my daughters in particular have more to contribute to the world than being sex objects.

So if they want to get into acting, is there a difference? She's playing on her looks... and making $$ doing it. The difference is the social acceptability of the work

M

[ergott]

Both podium girls and pro athletes are using their genetics to the best of their ability.
M

This is what I disagree with.

[Kontact]

Actually, aren't they both entertainers? If you get compensation, you are not an athlete longer.

Llike how Meryl Streep and a sex worker are both entertainers?


Perhaps there is a point when a society has to decide that some things, even some forms of entertainment, have more value than others. Listening to an orchestra play Bach and watching a bum fight are both entertainments, but a society is right to recognize the real cultural value in one and the regressive nature of the other.


My mom always had bread winning, technical, important jobs. As a kid I noticed the ladies at the trophy ceremony at the end of car races and simply assumed this was not their day job, but that they were either enthusiastic administrators of the sport or they were otherwise famous people there to make the sport richer with their presence. It was later disappointing to learn of the actual banality of their jobs and it made me actually feel bad for the winners who had to share the spotlight with them.

[Jaybee]

So if they want to get into acting, is there a difference? She's playing on her looks... and making $$ doing it. The difference is the social acceptability of the work

M

If you think actresses are primarily sex objects and not artists, that tells me a lot about your perspective.

[coffeecake]

If a woman in cycling posts something feminist and a bunch of men don't tell her she's doing it wrong, did it even happen?

retweet

[FlashUNC]

This , my dear, is so condescending. To claim that podium girls do not have skill or experience is ridiculous. Yes, part of their job is/was based on appearances, but to claim that there is no skill or experience in that position is to objectify the podium girls. Batty commits the same sin she claims only straight men are guilty of.

Oh that's rich. You're so right, they're not objectified at all.

http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/2013/04/01/1/saganpinch_1_670.jpg

[weisan]

http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/womens-lounge/989690d1432075545-amanda-batty-leaving-pinkbike-howe_2009crossvegas1_600.jpg

[William]

Oh that's rich. You're so right, they're not objectified at all.

http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/2013/04/01/1/saganpinch_1_670.jpg

Leches exist in all walks of life and throughout just about every profession, it's not exclusive to podium girls at all.






William

[disspence]

That's pretty harsh.

Agree with several points she makes. Disagree with several.

Agree: "It isn’t, however, your right to be upset when a changing market means that your job title is irrelevant. It also isn’t your right to demand that you get your job back."

Pretty much spot on. Maybe she has a follow on career as a lobbyist for the autonomous driving industry, after they've displaced hundreds of thousands of truck drivers. She certainly has a no nonsense style.

Disagree: "But from a female professional athlete to you, here’s some unsolicited advice: go get a job that relies on expertise outside of your appearance."

I understand she is a downhill MTB rider, and maybe talent/skill can be trained to a larger extent than in road cycling. But let's face it, genetics is the predominant determinant of whether you're capable of making it to the top levels of cycling. To suggest that your natural endowments shouldn't factor into your work is either extremely naive or extremely disingenuous, coming from an athlete.


There does seem to be a tone of hostility throughout the piece. My take is that she believes her job is somehow more honorable or pure because it is an athletic pursuit, and she is more entitled to recognition/acclaim. I can get behind her views with regards to changing tastes and preferences, but I am not ready to accept that podium girls have done any kind of real harm to the sport or economically harmed the female athletes. There is a problem with the system as a whole, and unequal salaries are a symptom of the problem, just as podium girls are a symptom of it.

Exactly - I find Batty's claims disingenuous when she is a top level athlete. Of course, she has benefited from genetics. If she explicitly stated this understanding in her piece, then it would have made her agrument stronger.

[disspence]

I'm not claiming a podium girl can't have talent. They might do many other things well, but that particular job?

Perhaps you can tell us what other talents are required for the position?

To maintain the level of appearance required for the position is work. Yes, work to maintain a superficial understanding of beauty, but still work - Diet and exercise similar to an athlete's.

[Gummee]

If you think actresses are primarily sex objects and not artists, that tells me a lot about your perspective.
You're putting words in my mouth. I've never said any such thing.

@Ergott: how is there a difference? I knew pretty quickly into my racing 'career' that I'd never be a pro. Don't have the genetics. Batty does have the genetics. Podium girls have different genetics. Both Batty and the podium girls are using genetics to get ahead of the competition. You can't tell me there isn't competition to become a podium girl regardless of what y'all think about the job.

M

[dbnm]

Let's put a little spin to it...

Does her letter change at all if she was YOUR DAUGHTER?

[disspence]

Oh that's rich. You're so right, they're not objectified at all.

http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/2013/04/01/1/saganpinch_1_670.jpg

not what I said. They are objectified, but Batty is doing the same thing with her argument by not stating that she understands these women have more value in sport and society than their current position portrays. It is not the podium girls fault that Sagan is an asshole.

[earlfoss]

No matter what your argument is, I tune out when I encounter that level of condescending attitude. This is the internet though, so I guess you have to present a loud, divisive argument to rise above the noise. Things are slowly changing in the direction of no podium girls. That's fine, but there could be an argument made that articles like hers will prolong it. I'm ambivalent on the issue. Frankly, if they do away with podium girls in races they'll still be there in F1 and all of the other sports that people actually care about. Yes, probably 99% of the world couldn't care less about cycling.

[Jaybee]

You're putting words in my mouth. I've never said any such thing.




So if they want to get into acting, is there a difference? She's playing on her looks... and making $$ doing it. The difference is the social acceptability of the work



If you mean something other than actresses are valued primarily for their looks, rather than their artistic competency, please explain it to me.

[chiasticon]

There does seem to be a tone of hostility throughout the piece. My take is that she believes her job is somehow more honorable or pure because it is an athletic pursuit, and she is more entitled to recognition/acclaim. I can get behind her views with regards to changing tastes and preferences, but I am not ready to accept that podium girls have done any kind of real harm to the sport or economically harmed the female athletes. There is a problem with the system as a whole, and unequal salaries are a symptom of the problem, just as podium girls are a symptom of it.pretty much agree with this.

I get having an issues with using podium girls and wanting them phased out. I don't get attacking them personally for their chosen occupation or building yourself up as better than them.

[Jaybee]

pretty much agree with this.

I get having an issues with using podium girls and wanting them phased out. I don't get attacking them personally for their chosen occupation or building yourself up as better than them.

I agree that podium girls are symptomatic of the larger problems that lead to inequality in cycling, or any walk of life really. As such, maybe Batty's rant against podium girls should be targeted at the people hiring them.

[Gummee]

No matter what your argument is, I tune out when I encounter that level of condescending attitude. This is the internet though, so I guess you have to present a loud, divisive argument to rise above the noise. Things are slowly changing in the direction of no podium girls. That's fine, but there could be an argument made that articles like hers will prolong it. I'm ambivalent on the issue. Frankly, if they do away with podium girls in races they'll still be there in F1 and all of the other sports that people actually care about. Yes, probably 99% of the world couldn't care less about cycling.
Actually, the grid girls in F1 are gone. They're upset too

M

[ultraman6970]

Read pieces of it, is she jellly because a podium girl maybe can earn more money than her or something? Honestly that a girl is modeling doesnt mean they are dumb and that their profession is not as good as a cyclist?

Looks like this girl doesnt realize that modeling moves a lot of people around? not only the podium girls? she wants to do the same they did to the F1 girls??? Honestly that they cut them off doesnt mean she will get more money either. Many of the models go to college, etc... etc.

In deep which is this rant about then??

[Gummee]

If you mean something other than actresses are valued primarily for their looks, rather than their artistic competency, please explain it to me.

These are off the top of my head:

You think Keanu Reeves can act? How bout Kevin Costner? They're idols because of their looks, not acting ability. Are we railing against that kind of favoritism?

On the female side: Natalie Portman and Emilia Clark... I'd argue that Gwendolyn Chrisite is a better actress, but doesn't have the looks or the genetics (size) to play the lead role.

Even better: how about all the 'pop stars' that can't carry a tune in a bucket without a computer program but have the looks to be a star?

M

[earlfoss]

Actually, the grid girls in F1 are gone. They're upset too

M

Well there ya go! The world is indeed changing.

[ergott]

These are off the top of my head:

You think Keanu Reeves can act? How bout Kevin Costner? They're idols because of their looks, not acting ability. Are we railing against that kind of favoritism?

On the female side: Natalie Portman and Emilia Clark... I'd argue that Gwendolyn Chrisite is a better actress, but doesn't have the looks or the genetics (size) to play the lead role.

Even better: how about all the 'pop stars' that can't carry a tune in a bucket without a computer program but have the looks to be a star?

M


The injustices you mention don't make it right. We have been a society (as a whole, not just USA) that favors prototypical looks over substance and evidence of that is everywhere. I think I've seen a shift in my lifetime to this realization and more evidence of a correction each day. More and more people are getting recognized for their talents that otherwise wouldn't have decades ago.

[Gummee]

Well there ya go! The world is indeed changing.

read me (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/formula-one-grid-girls-objectification-women)

M

and me (http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/f1-grid-girl-speaks-not-one-us-think-its-sexist-exploitative-or-demeaning)

[fiamme red]

But whatever you do, please stop insisting that you contribute to my sports and the other activities that I actually participate in and where I am absolutely an equal, and not the sum of my body parts or my appearances. Please stop insisting that it’s your right to be employed in an industry that not only underpays me (by a lot!) but where we still have rampant issues of discrimination, sexual abuse, assault and the refusal to see women as equal parts. In what is Batty absolutely an equal, and equal to whom? To male MTB downhill racers, or to professional cyclists in general?

She claims to be underpaid by a lot, but the same could be said by many cyclists -- track cyclists, for example. A man can have enormous talent and work hard to be one of the best track pursuiters or sprinters in the world, and yet the amount of money he will make is peanuts compared to a top road cyclist. It's simply what the market demands.

[sandyrs]

If a woman in cycling posts something feminist and a bunch of men don't tell her she's doing it wrong, did it even happen?

bump

[ergott]

If a woman in cycling posts something feminist and a bunch of men don't tell her she's doing it wrong, did it even happen?

Where do mansplainers get their water

From a well, actually
Keegan Osinski
@keegzzz

[Kontact]

In what is Batty absolutely an equal, and equal to whom? To male MTB downhill racers, or to professional cyclists in general?

She claims to be underpaid by a lot, but the same could be said by many cyclists -- track cyclists, for example. A man can have enormous talent and work hard to be one of the best track pursuiters or sprinters in the world, and yet the amount of money he will make is peanuts compared to a top road cyclist. It's simply what the market demands.

The argument about equality vs merit within a profession is not really what the piece is about.

[Gummee]

The injustices you mention don't make it right. We have been a society (as a whole, not just USA) that favors prototypical looks over substance and evidence of that is everywhere. I think I've seen a shift in my lifetime to this realization and more evidence of a correction each day. More and more people are getting recognized for their talents that otherwise wouldn't have decades ago.

I agree.

What started after WW1, continued after WW2, and is progressing today. I get that all people should be judged on their merits regardless of sex, race, etc. That's a great thing.

Telling someone else that their choice of careers/jobs is bad is bad. Is it something that is fulfilling and interesting TO THEM? If so, who are you to tell them that they're wrong?

M

[Kontact]

Telling someone else that their choice of careers/jobs is bad is bad. Is it something that is fulfilling and interesting TO THEM? If so, who are you to tell them that they're wrong?


Would you extend that to crack dealers?

[Tony T]

Never once considered that a Crack Dealer was a career or a job.

[fiamme red]

I read that the podium girls at the Tour are all fluent in several languages, because they have to talk to VIPs from several countries. So they are not just mannequins.

[ergott]

I agree.

What started after WW1, continued after WW2, and is progressing today. I get that all people should be judged on their merits regardless of sex, race, etc. That's a great thing.

Telling someone else that their choice of careers/jobs is bad is bad. Is it something that is fulfilling and interesting TO THEM? If so, who are you to tell them that they're wrong?

M

A private industry made the decision to change how their brand is represented. No government forced them. I happen to agree with them.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/134227/f1-replaces-grid-girls-with-grid-kids-for-2018

Formula 1 bosses have decided to replace grid girls with children for the 2018 season.

[fiamme red]

The argument about equality vs merit within a profession is not really what the piece is about.Well, I don't agree with her main point either:

The thing about your job, my dear, is that it makes doing MY JOB (that’s based on skill and experience) extremely difficult, on multiple levels. Whether you intend it or not, your lack of contribution and presence undermines my very real contributions to the sport—from contract negotiations to inspiring new generations of athletes who are valued for their athletic prowess instead of their looks, your job has put women who have invested in these sports at risk.She brings no evidence that podium girls have these direct negative effects on her. How do they affect her contract negotiations or ability to inspire future generations?

[Gummee]

A private industry made the decision to change how their brand is represented. No government forced them. I happen to agree with them.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/134227/f1-replaces-grid-girls-with-grid-kids-for-2018

See my last post with quotes from actual grid girls.

M

[ptourkin]

Link (http://redkiteprayer.com/2018/02/dear-podium-girl/)

Me? That's pretty well the pot calling the kettle black. (hence my post)

I wonder what she'd say if all of her sponsors decided that women's sports doesn't meet their advertising needs and eliminated budgets.

I also have a real hard time with someone telling me that my chosen career is 'bad' for lack of a better word. Shouldn't that be MY decision? See a need, fill a need...

M

My prayers were answered. I'm glad she weighed in and that someone who is not me posted it here.

[echelon_john]

One person's rant is another person's dead-on opinion piece.

[Fishbike]

You have to look at the podium girls / marketing of attractive women in context of this point in history and the headlines. History has objectified and subjugated women. The consequences have usually been bad, sometime horrific. The pervasiveness of sexist attitudes continues. Most men and women grow up learning that a woman's appearance is a disproportionate indicator of a woman's value by society and many segments of the economy. Those perceptions make it harder to compete and can really crush confidence and self esteem. So yeah, as we all try to evolve. . . . lionizing women as ornaments should be minimized.

And for the folks who didn't like Batty's tone. . . you are part of the problem. And for the dads with little girls. . . help them learn to use their voices to assert themselves.

[Kontact]

She brings no evidence that podium girls have these direct negative effects on her. How do they affect her contract negotiations or ability to inspire future generations?

But she refers to there being such evidence. And the industry is acting like there is evidence.

So are you saying she's wrong, or just that she didn't construct her letter enough like a dissertation for your liking?

[Jaybee]

You have to look at the podium girls / marketing of attractive women in context of this point in history and the headlines. History has objectified and subjugated women. The consequences have usually been bad, sometime horrific. The pervasiveness of sexist attitudes continues Most men and women grow up learning that a woman's appearance is a disproportionate indicator of a woman's value by society and many segments of the economy. Those perceptions make it harder to compete and can really crush confidence and self esteem. So yeah, as we all try to evolve. . . . lionizing women as ornaments should be minimized.

And for the folks who didn't like Batty's tone. . . you are part of the problem. And for the dads with little girls. . . help them learn to use their voices to assert themselves.

Nailed it.

[Kontact]

I read that the podium girls at the Tour are all fluent in several languages, because they have to talk to VIPs from several countries. So they are not just mannequins.

Someone's resume isn't their job. And while it might seem alien to Americans, most Europeans are multi-lingual.


No one is saying podium girls are bad individuals, but that those individuals occupy a role that is without merit and regressive to the aims of creating a verdant and just society.

[fiamme red]

But she refers to there being such evidence. And the industry is acting like there is evidence.

So are you saying she's wrong, or just that she didn't construct her letter enough like a dissertation for your liking?The only evidence I can find in her post is this:

Companies and entire sports have actually lost money by employing you and promoting the idea that women exist solely for the pleasure of straight men, and they’re finally realizing that women spend money…. We spend a lot of it. We’re also viewers, athletes, employees, company owners and participants in these wonderful sports, and we don’t tend to want to be seen as sex objects. Research has proven this, too.So she's saying that a lot of women who would otherwise watch cycling and participate in the sport turn away from it because of the podium girls? I don't buy that argument.

[pasadena]

Link (http://redkiteprayer.com/2018/02/dear-podium-girl/)

Me? That's pretty well the pot calling the kettle black. (hence my post)

I wonder what she'd say if all of her sponsors decided that women's sports doesn't meet their advertising needs and eliminated budgets.

I also have a real hard time with someone telling me that my chosen career is 'bad' for lack of a better word. Shouldn't that be MY decision? See a need, fill a need...

M

Implicit in the tone is a hostility towards women who make their living based on their physical appearance.

It is odd to go out of her way to kick sand on these women, when the decisions have already been made. There is no call to action except to tell them they are useless, that their existence is an affront to her job as a pro cyclist. Disturbingly, Batty attributes sexual discrimination, and assault to these women. There is a deep hostility towards these women that goes beyond the pale.

While I may agree with the evolution of event organization and media representation, the problem is many athletes trade on their looks for profit all the time. There are athletes that gain huge sponsorship money based on looks, not results or performance. Is this wrong?

The problem is, modelling is not some one-off tosser of digbats to be dismissed. It's a legitimate, multi-billion dollar industry. Women have to work hard to get any measure of success, just like many other entertainment industries.

Is Cindy Crawford any less a woman because her entire career is based on her looks? That assumption would be predicated on the idea that her career was nothing but staring into a camera. Unfortunately, like every other career, it takes a lot more than what someone outside of it gleans.

Is a young woman that got a gig at a bike race one day, trying to build a resume, an affront to womens rights? Is she "asking for it"?

Adopting a luddite, male-centric, hostile voice against certain women is counter productive and demeaning. It goes against what is really right about womens rights in sports and all sectors of our society.

[Gummee]

You have to look at the podium girls / marketing of attractive women in context of this point in history and the headlines. History has objectified and subjugated women. The consequences have usually been bad, sometime horrific. The pervasiveness of sexist attitudes continues Most men and women grow up learning that a woman's appearance is a disproportionate indicator of a woman's value by society and many segments of the economy. Those perceptions make it harder to compete and can really crush confidence and self esteem. So yeah, as we all try to evolve. . . . lionizing women as ornaments should be minimized.

And for the folks who didn't like Batty's tone. . . you are part of the problem. And for the dads with little girls. . . help them learn to use their voices to assert themselves.

I hate to break it to ya, but people in general and women in specific have ALWAYS been admired for their beauty. It's hardwired into the us as humans.
https://d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.net/800px_COLOURBOX2823362.jpg

I don't like Batty's tone, but that doesn't mean 'I'm part of the problem.' I don't like anyone telling anyone else their choice of career is wrong.

One could argue that downhill cycling is bad for the environment in more ways than one, bad for the athlete's bodies, and adds nothing to society. Therefore, we should ban downhill racing because it's bad.

Ditto with MMA fighting, boxing, wrestling, etc.

M

[FlashUNC]

The only evidence I can find in her post is this:

So she's saying that a lot of women who would otherwise watch cycling and participate in the sport turn away from it because of the podium girls? I don't buy that argument.

Her argument is that a sport run overwhelmingly by men who market almost exclusively to men only use women in positions as sexual objects to sell things, rather than, yanno, doing things like promoting women's racing.

For the races that overlap, why are there no joint winners podiums where you have the men and women on stage at the same time? Sure, the women's race usually runs first, but why not leverage that time to showcase women's winners? Can't do that, of course, because it gets in the way of the T&A.

[Gummee]

Her argument is that a sport run overwhelmingly by men who market almost exclusively to men only use women in positions as sexual objects to sell things, rather than, yanno, doing things like promoting women's racing.

For the races that overlap, why are there no joint winners podiums where you have the men and women on stage at the same time? Sure, the women's race usually runs first, but why not leverage that time to showcase women's winners? Can't do that, of course, because it gets in the way of the T&A.

Or is it more that the women want their own podiums rather than get lumped in with the men?

I'd vote that it's as important or more so to have a women's podium and recognize the women separately.

M

[fiamme red]

Why don't we have a thread here devoted to the WNBA season? It's not fair. :)

[ptourkin]

Her argument is that a sport run overwhelmingly by men who market almost exclusively to men only use women in positions as sexual objects to sell things, rather than, yanno, doing things like promoting women's racing.



This.

[Kontact]

The only evidence I can find in her post is this:

So she's saying that a lot of women who would otherwise watch cycling and participate in the sport turn away from it because of the podium girls? I don't buy that argument.

So you don't agree with the evidence that convinced the industries, or you don't think the evidence exists?


Those are pretty different.

[Gummee]

This.

So what's the answer? Pitch a fit or fix the problem?

I see this as pitching a fit, but doesn't do anything to fix the problem. Kinda like whining on FB that Obama is the worst POTUS ever! or Trump is the worst POTUS ever! when you didn't vote.

Fixing the problem means doing something. Found a team. Run said team. Find women run businesses to get sponsorship from and promote those businesses. If not women-owned businesses, then women-focused businesses...

I don't have the answer to those big questions.

It would be like me kvetching about the innerwebs killing bike shops and then not advertising my shop anywhere but to my friends.

M

[Kontact]

Implicit in the tone is a hostility towards women who make their living based on their physical appearance.

It is odd to go out of her way to kick sand on these women, when the decisions have already been made. There is no call to action except to tell them they are useless, that their existence is an affront to her job as a pro cyclist. Disturbingly, Batty attributes sexual discrimination, and assault to these women. There is a deep hostility towards these women that goes beyond the pale.

While I may agree with the evolution of event organization and media representation, the problem is many athletes trade on their looks for profit all the time. There are athletes that gain huge sponsorship money based on looks, not results or performance. Is this wrong?

The problem is, modelling is not some one-off tosser of digbats to be dismissed. It's a legitimate, multi-billion dollar industry. Women have to work hard to get any measure of success, just like many other entertainment industries.

Is Cindy Crawford any less a woman because her entire career is based on her looks? That assumption would be predicated on the idea that her career was nothing but staring into a camera. Unfortunately, like every other career, it takes a lot more than what someone outside of it gleans.

Is a young woman that got a gig at a bike race one day, trying to build a resume, an affront to womens rights? Is she "asking for it"?

Adopting a luddite, male-centric, hostile voice against certain women is counter productive and demeaning. It goes against what is really right about womens rights in sports and all sectors of our society.

I see nothing in the letter to indicate that the author is against models. That seems to be something you've decided it is about.

The letter seems to be about the merit of eye candy people with no other role within the sports broadcasting industry, and little else.

[GOTHBROOKS]

edit: i dont care anymore

[Kontact]

So what's the answer? Pitch a fit or fix the problem?

I see this as pitching a fit, but doesn't do anything to fix the problem. Kinda like whining on FB that Obama is the worst POTUS ever! or Trump is the worst POTUS ever! when you didn't vote.

Fixing the problem means doing something. Found a team. Run said team. Find women run businesses to get sponsorship from and promote those businesses. If not women-owned businesses, then women-focused businesses...

I don't have the answer to those big questions.

It would be like me kvetching about the innerwebs killing bike shops and then not advertising my shop anywhere but to my friends.

M

Women are doing all those things. And this "pitched fit" (pejorative) is a woman addressing the women who don't like that the industry has devalued their jobs. The change already happened.

[fiamme red]

So you don't agree with the evidence that convinced the industries, or you don't think the evidence exists?


Those are pretty different.I don't understand. Is it that other industries (e.g., F1) have been convinced by the evidence, and cycling hasn't? Or is it that the cycling industry has also been convinced, but the podium girls are standing in their way? I haven't seen any statements by podium girls arguing that their job is vital to cycling. This is just a rant against a straw man.

[echelon_john]

Being vocal and calling it out is part of fixing the problem. If you're going to call it 'pitching a fit' you may as well say she's being 'hysterical' and that it must be due to her period.




So what's the answer? Pitch a fit or fix the problem?

I see this as pitching a fit, but doesn't do anything to fix the problem. Kinda like whining on FB that Obama is the worst POTUS ever! or Trump is the worst POTUS ever! when you didn't vote.

Fixing the problem means doing something. Found a team. Run said team. Find women run businesses to get sponsorship from and promote those businesses. If not women-owned businesses, then women-focused businesses...

I don't have the answer to those big questions.

It would be like me kvetching about the innerwebs killing bike shops and then not advertising my shop anywhere but to my friends.

M

[Gummee]

Women are doing all those things. And this "pitched fit" (pejorative) is a woman addressing the women who don't like that the industry has devalued their jobs. The change already happened.

Yes. 'Women' are doing these things. What specifically is Batty doing?

Pitching a fit.

[South Park] YOU TOOK MY JOB! [/SP]

M

[ptourkin]

So what's the answer? Pitch a fit or fix the problem?

I see this as pitching a fit, but doesn't do anything to fix the problem. Kinda like whining on FB that Obama is the worst POTUS ever! or Trump is the worst POTUS ever! when you didn't vote.

Fixing the problem means doing something. Found a team. Run said team. Find women run businesses to get sponsorship from and promote those businesses. If not women-owned businesses, then women-focused businesses...

I don't have the answer to those big questions.

It would be like me kvetching about the innerwebs killing bike shops and then not advertising my shop anywhere but to my friends.

M

She races bikes and gave up a writing job on another outlet because of a sexist tone she didn't agree with. She is trying to be a role model as an athlete and continues to compete.

[fiamme red]

this is tone deaf drunk uncle styled garbage and i seriously cant tell if youre joking or not.Very few men or women care about professional women's cycling, just as very few care about the WNBA. It's very simple: if more women followed pro women's cycling, there would be more races, coverage, and prize money.

[pasadena]

I see nothing in the letter to indicate that the author is against models. That seems to be something you've decided it is about.

The letter seems to be about the merit of eye candy people with no other role within the sports broadcasting industry, and little else.

"eye candy people" within the "sports broadcasting industry"
ok
neither of those were mentioned in her post.

I am responding to her post, not what I decided it's about.

I'm not attacking the position of the growth of womens sports, nor the improving attitudes in all venues of professional and social life.

I'm commenting on her post. Lets stop taking the easy route of attacking other people and do the more rare thing and open a discussion about it.

[AngryScientist]

i'm not going down the rabbit hole on this one, so my comment is based on what i think is the bottom line, as i see it:

it's a case of following the money.

pro cycling is fueled by sponsorship dollars. sponsorship dollars are driven by market exposure/ratings.

if podium girls were eliminated from pro cycling tomorrow, entirely -

would viewership of pro cycling go up or down?

those ratings would drive the sponsor dollars one way or another.

it would be difficult to isolate the other variables that would contribute to rating movement, but to me, that is the operative question.

to me as a viewer, it is a total wash. i would neither watch more, or less professional cycling based on the presence of podium girls.

[Gummee]

to me as a viewer, it is a total wash. i would neither watch more, or less professional cycling based on the presence of podium girls.

I don't typically watch the podium ceremonies with all that much attention. I don't think there were any podium girls at the CX worlds, but dunno

Racing isn't about the podium girls. Racing is about the racing.

I'm still not sure how a podium girl is affecting a pro downhiller's ability to make a living. Apples and pomegranates

M

[Kontact]

Yes. 'Women' are doing these things. What specifically is Batty doing?

Pitching a fit.


She appears to be a pro racer. Is that not doing something for the sport?

I would rather have thought that was the whole point of the sport.


Are you saying that she somehow doesn't have a right to comment on elements of the sport built around her and her fellow athletes?

[Kontact]

"eye candy people" within the "sports broadcasting industry"
ok
neither of those were mentioned in her post.

I am responding to her post, not what I decided it's about.


What part of her post commented on models, then?



("Eye candy" in the "sports broadcasting industry" is my synonym for "podium girls".)

[Gummee]

She appears to be a pro racer. Is that not doing something for the sport?

I would rather have thought that was the whole point of the sport.


Are you saying that she somehow doesn't have a right to comment on elements of the sport built around her and her fellow athletes?

Do mtn bike races actually have podium girls?

I didn't see any in the quick google search I just did

M

[FlashUNC]

I don't typically watch the podium ceremonies with all that much attention. I don't think there were any podium girls at the CX worlds, but dunno

Racing isn't about the podium girls. Racing is about the racing.

I'm still not sure how a podium girl is affecting a pro downhiller's ability to make a living. Apples and pomegranates

M

Because the mindset of someone who pulls the levers of power in the sport that thinks podium girls are a necessity probably isn't the kind of person to devote care and attention to growing the side of the sport where women race. Its that kind of entrenched sexism that leads to bad opinions like "if more women watched women's racing, it wouldn't be a marginal product."

Uh, bruh, market bike racing to everyone. It ain't hard.

[Tony T]

….pro cycling is fueled by sponsorship dollars. sponsorship dollars are driven by market exposure/ratings.
if podium girls were eliminated from pro cycling tomorrow, entirely -
would viewership of pro cycling go up or down?
those ratings would drive the sponsor dollars one way or another.

…

Consider that when a clip is shown of cycling on the news (local, national, print, websites), it is usually only the Podium ceremony that is shown, and as in most advertisements, what "works" to get attention is used. Even the article in the OP used the Podium Girls to get attention to their website.

[Kontact]

Do mtn bike races actually have podium girls?

I didn't see any in the quick google search I just did

M

Does bike racing have podium girls? Is she a bike racer? Would you be shocked if she, like so many others, raced on a different kind of bike?

[Chris]

I just have a real problem when one group who is perfectly fine being themselves starts telling another group who are perfectly fine being themselves that they can't be and, even worse, that they shouldn't be employed because group A knows what's best for them.

[Gummee]

Consider that when a clip is shown of cycling on the news (local, national, print, websites), it is usually only the Podium ceremony that is shown, and as in most advertisements, what "works" to get attention is used. Even the article in the OP used the Podium Girls to get attention to their website.

So isn't attracting attention of the people that may casually pay attention a good thing?

M

[Gummee]

Does bike racing have podium girls? Is she a bike racer? Would you be shocked if she, like so many others, raced on a different kind of bike?

Did you miss where I specifically asked if mtn biking has podium girls?

Last I checked, Batty was a DHer, not a roadie.

M

[Tony T]

So isn't attracting attention of the people that may casually pay attention a good thing?

M

Yes.
I don't agree with getting rid of Podium Girls.

[Hobine]

Not that it matters, Emily Batty is a cross country mtb racer from Canada, not a downhiller. She's an excellent athlete who has done well and trains hard. She has never shied away from using her own good looks to promote herself. That's part of the reason her "rant" doesn't sit well with me. Seems a tad hypocritical.

[echelon_john]

Different person.

https://www.amandabatty.com/about

Not that it matters, Emily Batty is a cross country mtb racer from Canada, not a downhiller. She's an excellent athlete who has done well and trains hard. She has never shied away from using her own good looks to promote herself. That's part of the reason her "rant" doesn't sit well with me. Seems a tad hypocritical.

[MattTuck]

It would be nice if getting rid of this highly visible position was more than just a symbolic act. I'm doubtful that it will solve any of the problems that women's cycling faces.

People act like this is a big switch that needs to be flipped and things will be better on the other side. Things will be the same, just there won't be any podium girls. For real change to take place, it's going to require sustained effort on many stakeholders' parts.

Be very wary of the organizer who gets rid of podium girls and declare victory. I'd like to see them go, but I'd rather see a focus on the real underlying issues than this superficial one.

[Jaybee]

Not that it matters, Emily Batty is a cross country mtb racer from Canada, not a downhiller. She's an excellent athlete who has done well and trains hard. She has never shied away from using her own good looks to promote herself. That's part of the reason her "rant" doesn't sit well with me. Seems a tad hypocritical.

At first I saw the name Batty and thought we were talking about the XC racer from Canada too.

But the writer of this piece is downhiller Amanda Batty, not XC racer Emily.

Amanda Batty has never been shy about speaking up re: sexism in the sport. I think she lost a regular writing gig with Pinkbike as a result.

[Kontact]

I just have a real problem when one group who is perfectly fine being themselves starts telling another group who are perfectly fine being themselves that they can't be and, even worse, that they shouldn't be employed because group A knows what's best for them.

I don't see where Batty was saying that firing podium girls was good for podium girls. She seems to be saying it is good for the sport, and maybe the podium girls ought to recognize that their participation in the industry is bad for that industry.

Did you miss where I specifically asked if mtn biking has podium girls?

Last I checked, Batty was a DHer, not a roadie.

M

She is, and by doing so you seem to be implying that she has no legitimate voice beyond the narrow confines of her tiny sub-category of racing.

And I'm pointing out that as a racer and a bicycle racer, she should have a voice - especially when the female racers in other racing sub-categories are so poorly represented.

[echelon_john]

Agree, but symbolic acts matter. So does equalizing prize payouts, so does enforcing women's minimum time/distance rules, so do women-focused camps and clinics, so does allocating TV time to women's races. These things are all happening with increasing frequency.

It's a small but highly visible component of a larger shift that is underway at many levels of cycling & racing, and about effing time.


It would be nice if getting rid of this highly visible position was more than just a symbolic act. I'm doubtful that it will solve any of the problems that women's cycling faces.

People act like this is a big switch that needs to be flipped and things will be better on the other side. Things will be the same, just there won't be any podium girls. For real change to take place, it's going to require sustained effort on many stakeholders' parts.

Be very wary of the organizer who gets rid of podium girls and declare victory. I'd like to see them go, but I'd rather see a focus on the real underlying issues than this superficial one.

[William]

Not that it matters, Emily Batty is a cross country mtb racer from Canada, not a downhiller. She's an excellent athlete who has done well and trains hard. She has never shied away from using her own good looks to promote herself. That's part of the reason her "rant" doesn't sit well with me. Seems a tad hypocritical.





Honestly, I don't care what she chooses to do, but I do get what you are saying there...








William

[William]

At first I saw the name Batty and thought we were talking about the XC racer from Canada too.

But the writer of this piece is downhiller Amanda Batty, not XC racer Emily.

Amanda Batty has never been shy about speaking up re: sexism in the sport. I think she lost a regular writing gig with Pinkbike as a result.

I may have been looking up the wrong person. Checking...




William

[Gummee]

I don't see where Batty was saying that firing podium girls was good for podium girls. She seems to be saying it is good for the sport, and maybe the podium girls ought to recognize that their participation in the industry is bad for that industry.Bad for 'the industry' huh? Don't see it. People are going to buy bikes whether there's racing or not. ...and... MOST people outside a small fringe group (us) don't give a rat's behind about roadies in general and road racers in specific. Bicycling for fun and leisure is where lots of people are in their lives.

The 'next big thing' in cycling is bikes for transportation not 'road bikes' or 'racing bikes.' E-bikes especially in EUR. (speaking of which... wonder how long till someone's racing them?!)

I DO see the innerwebs being bad for a certain portion of 'the industry' (LBSes). That can be good for lots of people as they save $$ on their 'ride for fun' bikes.

I still don't see how a DH mtn biker can conceivably say a podium girl on the men's road side is keeping her from having a job as a pro female DH mtn biker.

M



She is, and by doing so you seem to be implying that she has no legitimate voice beyond the narrow confines of her tiny sub-category of racing.

And I'm pointing out that as a racer and a bicycle racer, she should have a voice - especially when the female racers in other racing sub-categories are so poorly represented.[/QUOTE]

[Kontact]

Bad for 'the industry' huh? Don't see it. People are going to buy bikes whether there's racing or not. ...and... MOST people outside a small fringe group (us) don't give a rat's behind about roadies in general and road racers in specific. Bicycling for fun and leisure is where lots of people are in their lives.

The 'next big thing' in cycling is bikes for transportation not 'road bikes' or 'racing bikes.' E-bikes especially in EUR. (speaking of which... wonder how long till someone's racing them?!)

I DO see the innerwebs being bad for a certain portion of 'the industry' (LBSes). That can be good for lots of people as they save $$ on their 'ride for fun' bikes.

I still don't see how a DH mtn biker can conceivably say a podium girl on the men's road side is keeping her from having a job as a pro female DH mtn biker.



"Industry" meaning the competitive sports industry, not bicycle production and sales.

[earlfoss]

Her blog post seems to have driven some people batty. :help:

[Gummee]

"Industry" meaning the competitive sports industry, not bicycle production and sales.

If 'sex sells' wouldn't MORE podium girls be better? That would attract more viewers, increasing revenues (TV, ads, sponsorships, etc) and lead to 'a rising tide raises all boats?'

Now, I could see how some of y'all would find that offensive. Doesn't mean it isn't true

I'm also not sure how to 'fix' cycling. In this innerwebs age, I'm not sure how sponsoring a pro road team is good advertising, but doG bless the companies that do. World Tour teams are perpetually folding, being reborn, folding again, etc. ...or they're in danger of folding based on not finding a sponsor for next year.

Getting to the women's side of things: I agree that there should be a minimum wage. I agree that there shouldn't be any harassment. I agree that there should be more teams.

HOW that happens, I haven't a clue. The UCI decreeing that women should make $X bur don't do anything to help increase revenues just means that the budget stays the same and there are fewer racers that the teams can pay.

M

[Kontact]

If 'sex sells' wouldn't MORE podium girls be better? That would attract more viewers, increasing revenues (TV, ads, sponsorships, etc) and lead to 'a rising tide raises all boats?'

Now, I could see how some of y'all would find that offensive. Doesn't mean it isn't true

M

Sex sells to those that it is being marketed to. Podium girls seem to only sell to some heterosexual men, and appears to put off a bunch of other men and women.

Everyone likes 'sexy', but smiling girls in tight clothing with no real function isn't universally sexy. I personally find it comedic and have to remind myself that I'm not witnessing satire.


Podium girls are much like an extremely partisan political message - you may get a strong response from a certain segment while putting off everyone else. Sometimes a blander bait catches more fish than a strong smelling one.

[rousseau]

So she's saying that a lot of women who would otherwise watch cycling and participate in the sport turn away from it because of the podium girls? I don't buy that argument.
I don't know how to quantify this, but do you really not see how girls and women might find podium girls to be off-putting? The retrograde pantomime of the champion getting the girl is cheesy and embarrassing. What is a young girl interested in racing a bike thinking when she constantly sees women essentially relegated to the status of arm candy whenever bike racing shows up on the newscast?

I'm certainly not arguing that women's sports should be propped up artificially. I think it's perfectly fine that the WNBA will never capture more than a niche market, while, conversely, women's gymnastics and figure skating will always be more popular and compelling than men's. You can try to influence tastes and inclinations, but at some point you bump up against the reality that someone like, say, Michael Jordan is simply not going to emerge from the pool containing XX chromosomes.

Men are visually oriented and like to look at pretty girls (or guys, if that's your thing), regardless of how much the SJWs hector us. Sure. But isn't there a good argument to be made that female eye candy doesn't need to feature in absolutely everything we see? It's already an oppressively omnipresent factor in a young girl's life, as everywhere she turns she's confronted by a blaring media and half the population seeming to value her only for her looks.

Beautiful models modelling clothes? Makes perfect sense. Beautiful models cheering on a basketball game or kissing the winner of a bike race? Seems dumb to me.

[Chris]

Agree, but symbolic acts matter. So does equalizing prize payouts, so does enforcing women's minimum time/distance rules, so do women-focused camps and clinics, so does allocating TV time to women's races. These things are all happening with increasing frequency.

It's a small but highly visible component of a larger shift that is underway at many levels of cycling & racing, and about effing time.

Okay. I don't disagree and I really WANT to have a conversation here on this topic. I have tried with several friends and it just gets political or all social justice warriory. So, let's (not implying you) keep this a legit conversation and let me ask about making everything equal from the sponsor's perspective. I really want to have an honest conversation, because I do believe that some activism is needed in this area, but I also believe that there are some very simple economic facts at this time that just don't support the theory that women's racing is up to the challenges in terms of earning the dollars spent on them if they are to be made dollar for dollar equivalent to the men.

Equal prize lists. I think the winners should get the same money fo sho. But I have been to national level events where the women's field leaves money in envelopes because there aren't enough women to race. My wife or daughter could enter those races and finish in the money. When you compare that to a national level men's field where 2/3 are not in the money, then maybe some equivalent proportion should exist. I think this is less an issue in cross and I don't pay attention to mtn biking, but on the road its an issue. I've been to the Tour and I watched the women's race on the Champs up close. I thought it was as exciting as the men's and I am glad my daughters were there to see the examples set by these ladies. However, there was no problem finding a spot to watch the race. An hour later you couldn't leave or you would lose your spot for good. Other than tennis, I struggle to think of sports where women have near the same level of viewership as men's sports do and because of that, their sponsorship dollars are fewer. In the business world this means something and I don't think it can be realistically ignored. It's hard to get the TV time for a lot of women's races for a sheer lack of interest. It's like the WNBA. I watched cross worlds and was on the edge of my seat hoping KFC was going to hold out and that was some great TV, but on the road, there just simply is less interest.

So, I guess my question is, are we deluding ourselves when we make these symbolic gestures about whether this will improve women's fields, draw more people to the sport, etc, etc? Or do we really think that the activism/changes made ahead of the rationale for them/whatever will lead to the things that we hope for women's cycling?

If a person wants to be a women's bike racer, then I want that for them and I hope that we can figure out a way to make that happen in a sustainable manner. To stay on the theme of the thread, I also hope that if a woman aspires to be a model in any venue, that society can honor that choice as much as the other choices a woman might make.

[gemship]

Umm think about it... They're ALL billboards and/or entertainment.

It's all how they perceive themselves.

I'd even go so far as to say that at least the podium girls recognize what they are. Pro athletes think they're something other than what they are.

M

Completely agree, perspective is everything. I personally work a real backbreaking salt of the earth job that can't be outsourced. I personally see mountain bike racing as entertainment. ITS NOT A REAL JOB!

[Gummee]

e-ritchie quoted someone who said it succinctly:
“I just have a real problem when one group who is perfectly fine being themselves starts telling another group who are perfectly fine being themselves that they can’t be and, even worse, that they shouldn’t be employed because group A knows what’s best for them.

...and I'm going to leave it at that because the rest will get political.

M

[dbnm]

Have any women responded here?

How many women regularly post here?

[Gummee]

Have any women responded here?

How many women regularly post here?

Actually, that's a question for the mods: how many women are registered and how many post?

M

[Ttx1]

Have any women responded here?

How many women regularly post here?

<boom/headshot>

This whole thread would be 110% better if the OP linked directly to Batty's blog instead of to that hack Padraig's site, even if he appears to land on the right side of this particular issue...

Here, let me help: http://blog.amandabatty.com/2018/02/dear-podium-girl.html

She deserves every click, atmo.

[HenryA]

If Amanda wants fair, she can do the men’s race. After all, it’d be the same race course for every competitor. Same bikes, same equipment. Same gravity at work. What could be more fair?

I’ll go further and say that downhill MTB racing is simply a perversion of a very fine participant sport. It’s practically made for ease of coverage by the media, who really can’t cover cross country nearly the same. It's like the coverage that downhill skiing gets compared to cross country. One occurs in a limited, defined space, the other spread over miles of trails.

Skating is popular because it’s enjoyable to watch the graceful and athletic movement. And more so because the TV is easy. Everything happens right there in the rink with controlled lighting and loads of places to hang cameras. And the host can sit in a comfortable warm place. Hosts, who by the way, are more often than not selected because of their looks and ability to perform on camera. And then there’s the part that there are men and women performing so everyone gets to look at whoever they want — no need for podium girls or guys.

My take on all this is that Amanda is angry because her life is not going along a path to suit her. She feels cheated somehow that she is not appreciated or compensated to levels she feels appropriate. Welcome to the big world! If you want to make a lot of money, go to medical school. Choosing to be a bike racer and then expecting the big payout is not realistic. And here it is right in front of you — fully manifested for all to see.

Racing — or just riding — bikes is great fun and I highly recommend it as a participant sport. But unless you are one of the rare freaks with the highest level genetics and a burning work ethic don’t expect it to pay you big money and don’t complain about what others do for a living who appear to have a sweeter deal than you’ve arranged for yourself. They didn’t take anything from you. You picked your path and they picked theirs. Being pettily jealous of others only makes you look bitter and angry. At that point its time to go find your happy place somewhere else. Everyone should be happy and sometimes you have to go looking for it.

[bikingshearer]

Podium girls do perform real functions. They make sure the presentees get to and from the right place at the right time. They make sure that the right jersey/prize/other stuff gets into the right hands at the right time. They often have to be diplomatic, pleasant and helpful to visiting poobahs and sponsors and officials and politicians. All are important things that need to be done and done right.

Now ask yourself: what do breasts and tight or skimpy outfits have to do with performing these functions? The answer is: Nothing. Nada. Zilch. If you are being honest, you know that is the answer.

And that should tell you everything you need to know about whether the current practice of gratuitous T&A is an appropriate part of our sport.

[Gummee]

<boom/headshot>

This whole thread would be 110% better if the OP linked directly to Batty's blog instead of to that hack Padraig's site, even if he appears to land on the right side of this particular issue...

Here, let me help: http://blog.amandabatty.com/2018/02/dear-podium-girl.html

She deserves every click, atmo.

I didn't know she had a blog till I went looking for it.

M

[dbnm]

And just in case you missed this or don't remember from 4 days ago...

Amanda Batty is a bad ass racer and kind hearted woman.

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/02/cycling-santas-how-200-kids-in-need-were-gifted-a-two-wheel-holiday-surprise/

[pasadena]

This is a common argument held against the women
Title 9 proves that it's not true

and I think someone posted this image once, maybe here, but I saved it because it's a great explainer


Okay. I don't disagree and I really WANT to have a conversation here on this topic. I have tried with several friends and it just gets political or all social justice warriory. So, let's (not implying you) keep this a legit conversation and let me ask about making everything equal from the sponsor's perspective. I really want to have an honest conversation, because I do believe that some activism is needed in this area, but I also believe that there are some very simple economic facts at this time that just don't support the theory that women's racing is up to the challenges in terms of earning the dollars spent on them if they are to be made dollar for dollar equivalent to the men.

Equal prize lists. I think the winners should get the same money fo sho. But I have been to national level events where the women's field leaves money in envelopes because there aren't enough women to race. My wife or daughter could enter those races and finish in the money. When you compare that to a national level men's field where 2/3 are not in the money, then maybe some equivalent proportion should exist. I think this is less an issue in cross and I don't pay attention to mtn biking, but on the road its an issue. I've been to the Tour and I watched the women's race on the Champs up close. I thought it was as exciting as the men's and I am glad my daughters were there to see the examples set by these ladies. However, there was no problem finding a spot to watch the race. An hour later you couldn't leave or you would lose your spot for good. Other than tennis, I struggle to think of sports where women have near the same level of viewership as men's sports do and because of that, their sponsorship dollars are fewer. In the business world this means something and I don't think it can be realistically ignored. It's hard to get the TV time for a lot of women's races for a sheer lack of interest. It's like the WNBA. I watched cross worlds and was on the edge of my seat hoping KFC was going to hold out and that was some great TV, but on the road, there just simply is less interest.

So, I guess my question is, are we deluding ourselves when we make these symbolic gestures about whether this will improve women's fields, draw more people to the sport, etc, etc? Or do we really think that the activism/changes made ahead of the rationale for them/whatever will lead to the things that we hope for women's cycling?

If a person wants to be a women's bike racer, then I want that for them and I hope that we can figure out a way to make that happen in a sustainable manner. To stay on the theme of the thread, I also hope that if a woman aspires to be a model in any venue, that society can honor that choice as much as the other choices a woman might make.

[HenryA]

Completely agree, perspective is everything. I personally work a real backbreaking salt of the earth job that can't be outsourced. I personally see mountain bike racing as entertainment. ITS NOT A REAL JOB!

^^^^^ this ^^^^^

Not for most people, man or woman.

[Gummee]

Not to be a negative Nancy, but removing the systemic barrier is no guarantee of success...

It just means you have an equal shot at failing, OR succeeding if you have the right genetics, luck, and most of all are willing to put in the work.

M

[Chris]

Not to be a negative Nancy, but removing the systemic barrier is no guarantee of success...

It just means you have an equal shot at failing, OR succeeding if you have the right genetics, luck, and most of all are willing to put in the work.

M

Correct. That image assumes that everyone wants to see the game. There are some sports where no matter the incentive, fewer women will be interested in participating. The inverse is true as well.

[Gummee]

There are some sports where no matter the incentive, fewer women will be interested in participating. The inverse is true as well.

There are some CAREERS where no matter the incentive, women aren't interested in participating. Should we be upset that there aren't more women that want to be welders? plumbers? electricians?

I'm pretty sure that women would be BETTER at those jobs than men, but women don't tend to want to do those jobs.

I'm not sure how I feel about women in combat, but am likely to never find out firsthand. The Israelis seem to do OK, but...

M

[dbnm]

Let me be the first man here to say what an absolutely silly thread this has been

[Brian Smith]

Perhaps the more topical outrageousness about the ordeal we're into here, and many places online, seems to be that cycling online media such as the RKP outlet linked above isn't better than other click-hungry divisions of disrupted journalism.
When essentially reposting a blog entry supplants performing your own scribbling, is it more harmful to the sports public that those entrusted to tell us where to direct our attention are doing what they've done, or for those who stand next to athletes to earn something by conforming to a look designed to draw attention?
When someone, ostensibly in cycling journalism whose business purports to be able to deserve our attention defers instead, essentially with neither comment nor investigation, to a participant in sport to provide the story, it seems to reveal the lack of both confidence and sophistication.
I don't find it an overall comfortable position to be primarily the product of journalistic media instead of the payee, and as the journalism industry further devolves in this manner, we're losing a job category whose demise has managed to escape our reactions and continued clicking, and that job category is journalism.

[Gummee]

Let me be the first man here to say what an absolutely silly thread this has been

There ya go. Making light of the suffering of the female of the species.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

M

(yes, that was a joke)

[Corso]

So F1 eliminates jobs for women, and replaces them with child labor?

The “young” motor sport pool they will choose from is mostly boys, so if an equal amount of girls are represented, it will show bias, not a true lottery. Then we will have young girls filling the spot young women once had.

What a mess.

Amanda Batty has the right to her opinion. And podium girls have the right to be a podium girl if they choose.

Just like F1 umbrella girls (women) had.

Overall, sports is a male driven category.
Fashion is a female driven category.
How many male supermodels can you name? What are male models paid compared to, say, Giselle?

Amanda, should modeling also be done away with? Or at least, male models be paid the same?

And when Amanda ends up without a job due to lack of sponsorship, because people are not purchasing downhill bikes because of her, will she take the same “why? because you are 'noncontributing commodity’ advise she gives the grid girls?

I read her other blogs. She comes across rather angry in general.

Amanda: Live and let live.

[ptourkin]

Perhaps the more topical outrageousness about the ordeal we're into here, and many places online, seems to be that cycling online media such as the RKP outlet linked above isn't better than other click-hungry divisions of disrupted journalism.
When essentially reposting a blog entry supplants performing your own scribbling, is it more harmful to the sports public that those entrusted to tell us where to direct our attention are doing what they've done, or for those who stand next to athletes to earn something by conforming to a look designed to draw attention?
When someone, ostensibly in cycling journalism whose business purports to be able to deserve our attention defers instead, essentially with neither comment nor investigation, to a participant in sport to provide the story, it seems to reveal the lack of both confidence and sophistication.
I don't find it an overall comfortable position to be primarily the product of journalistic media instead of the payee, and as the journalism industry further devolves in this manner, we're losing a job category whose demise has managed to escape our reactions and continued clicking, and that job category is journalism.

Patrick was pretty clear why he posted it. He's amplifying a voice from another perspective. Not surprisingly, there is not a single comment here from that demographic, which apparently doesn't diminish anyone's sense of expertise.

[HenryA]

Patrick was pretty clear why he posted it. He's amplifying a voice from another perspective. Not surprisingly, there is not a single comment here from that demographic, which apparently doesn't diminish anyone's sense of expertise.

You are correct!
Not a single post by a podium girl.

[Black Dog]

So what happens if she's pretty enough to be a podium girl but not talented enough to win races? Would you begrudge her HER CHOICE to be a podium girl? It's not like they're slaves and have to apply for the job.

M

Yup it will be her choice. One I hope she would not make.

[Black Dog]

There are some CAREERS where no matter the incentive, women aren't interested in participating. Should we be upset that there aren't more women that want to be welders? plumbers? electricians?

I'm pretty sure that women would be BETTER at those jobs than men, but women don't tend to want to do those jobs.

I'm not sure how I feel about women in combat, but am likely to never find out firsthand. The Israelis seem to do OK, but...

M

We do the same in Canada, we allow females in combat and have brought a few home in coffins from Afghanistan. By all accounts they were equal to the task. No surprise. Perhaps women steer away from trades because of the culture of male dominated professions, not the nature of the work. This is the consensus of research on the topic.

[Mr. Squirrel]

dear paceline people, what do you have against podium squirrels? they work for nuts just like the rest of us. our podium squirrels work in an environment of dignity and respect, holding the nuts for our winning sciuridae. and that is not nuts.

mr. squirrel

[pbarry]

My daughters, even at 5 and 3, are beautiful, smart, independent, resourceful little people. They can do and be whatever they want, but if they decide that they are no more valuable than their looks, then I have sorely failed as a father.

Still on page one, but the comments above are POTD. Thank You.

[zross312]

The core point is that sports absolutely don't NEED to be a male driven category. I think we can all agree that tennis, for example, has benefited tremendously from the expansion of the women's tour. From the perspective of a male tennis player, more women playing means more courts being built, more racquet choices, more media exposure, more prize money available for everyone, etc. For us as cyclists, more women interested in cycling means more bikes on the road, leading to more public pressure for better cycling infrastructure, leading to more women interested in racing, leading to more amateur races being organized. And I think pro cycling can help drive that interest - women can benefit from cycling role models just the same as men can. So at the end of the day, if getting rid of podium girls makes women in general more comfortable with and accepted into the sport of professional cycling, it seems like it's a no brainer - literally all upside and literally no downside.

So F1 eliminates jobs for women, and replaces them with child labor?

The “young” motor sport pool they will choose from is mostly boys, so if an equal amount of girls are represented, it will show bias, not a true lottery. Then we will have young girls filling the spot young women once had.

What a mess.

Amanda Batty has the right to her opinion. And podium girls have the right to be a podium girl if they choose.

Just like F1 umbrella girls (women) had.

Overall, sports is a male driven category.
Fashion is a female driven category.
How many male supermodels can you name? What are male models paid compared to, say, Giselle?

Amanda, should modeling also be done away with? Or at least, male models be paid the same?

And when Amanda ends up without a job due to lack of sponsorship, because people are not purchasing downhill bikes because of her, will she take the same “why? because you are 'noncontributing commodity’ advise she gives the grid girls?

I read her other blogs. She comes across rather angry in general.

Amanda: Live and let live.

[Gummee]

Yup it will be her choice. One I hope she would not make.

Why not? She's going to be dealing with influential people, probably in more than one language, and making connections that may lead to something else. All because she was 'a podium girl.'

All-in-all, there are worse things to be in life. A non-paid 'professional' DHer for example.

I was thinking about this rant: it may be counter=productive to her future career to keep making these kinds of posts. If she stirs the pot enough, there may not be anyone that will hire her... It isn't 'fair' but then when was life ever 'fair?'

M

[Jaybee]

And just in case you missed this or don't remember from 4 days ago...

Amanda Batty is a bad ass racer and kind hearted woman.

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/02/cycling-santas-how-200-kids-in-need-were-gifted-a-two-wheel-holiday-surprise/

I did miss this, and thanks for highlighting it. it's the best story I've read in weeks.

Amanda seems like an amazing person.

[pbarry]

OK, read the whole thread, whew! Just gotta ask, since there have been two threads on the subject of PGs in the last 7-10 days: Anyone else have a problem with the usage of the word "girls" to describe adult people in a profession, working diligently in a career path? Just wondering.. Try hard to not call my inquiry "PC". And don't use "best boy" in the film industry to buttress your argument. ;)

[Gummee]

OK, read the whole thread, whew! Just gotta ask, since there have been two threads on the subject of PGs in the last 7-10 days: Anyone else have a problem with the usage of the word "girls" to describe adult people in a profession, working diligently in a career path? Just wondering.. Try hard to not call my inquiry "PC". And don't use "best boy" in the film industry to buttress your argument. ;)

Ya got me. It's a job title is all I can figure.

From the moto world (https://womenadvriders.com/womens-motorcycle-gear-klims-secret-weapon/)

M

[pbarry]

Right. A.B. should just pipe down and get along?

Why not? She's going to be dealing with influential people, probably in more than one language, and making connections that may lead to something else. All because she was 'a podium girl.'

All-in-all, there are worse things to be in life. A non-paid 'professional' DHer for example.

I was thinking about this rant: it may be counter=productive to her future career to keep making these kinds of posts. If she stirs the pot enough, there may not be anyone that will hire her... It isn't 'fair' but then when was life ever 'fair?'

M

[coffeecake]

I was thinking about this rant: it may be counter=productive to her future career to keep making these kinds of posts. If she stirs the pot enough, there may not be anyone that will hire her... It isn't 'fair' but then when was life ever 'fair?'

M

I think Amanda would really appreciate your advice. You should definitely offer it to her.

[Gummee]

I think Amanda would really appreciate your advice. You should definitely offer it to her.
I will. She won't listen tho.

I'm not saying don't be active in doing what she wants. ...but if what y'all are typing is true and the sport is run by men, attacking the status quo may not be good for future employment opportunities. See also 'whistle blowers' and why they need legal protection.

I don't make the rules. I don't even like some of them. ...but... Those that do may be paying attention and may label someone 'a problem' for speaking out and may not offer them sponsorship. Happens in Hollywood all the time. See also: Mel Gibson

M

[Burnette]

I will. She won't listen tho.

I'm not saying don't be active in doing what she wants. ...but if what y'all are typing is true and the sport is run by men, attacking the status quo may not be good for future employment opportunities. See also 'whistle blowers' and why they need legal protection.

I don't make the rules. I don't even like some of them. ...but... Those that do may be paying attention and may label someone 'a problem' for speaking out and may not offer them sponsorship. Happens in Hollywood all the time. See also: Mel Gibson

M

Ok, I've got me some warm milk and I've settled in. Go ahead and explain how Mel Gibson became a victim and what did he say to become one. Slurp.

[pbarry]

Sorry, Gummee, Mel is not a good example..

It's interesting that this thread has generated more pages in a short amount of time than any I can remember other than some with Serotta in the title when the biz was going down.

[Gummee]

Ok, I've got me some warm milk and I've settled in. Go ahead and explain how Mel Gibson became a victim and what did he say to become one. Slurp.

After that movie of his, he became unemployable.

Go look it up.

He did it to himself...

M

[Gummee]

Sorry, Mel is not a good example..

It's interesting that this thread has generated more pages in a short amount of time than any I can remember other than some with Serotta in the title when the biz was going down.

All right then, come up with a better example off the top of your head.

It's winter...

M

[Burnette]

After that movie of his, he became unemployable.

Go look it up.

He did it to himself...

M

Oh, oh, oh, OK, it wasn't that stuff that he did to that woman, or that stuff his dad said, or that stuff Mel said, right, right, right... slurp.

[rustychisel]

Ok, I've got me some warm milk and I've settled in. Go ahead and explain how Mel Gibson became a victim and what did he say to become one. Slurp.
:hello::hello::hello:

Listen up: once upon a time there was a podium girl named Mel Gibson, who was cute as a button and loved by everyone. But Mel had a secret. She was a he and when he got schickered became a foul-mouthed anti-semitic POS. In fact, the things he said were worse than you could publish or read on a blog about gender equality and opportunity...

[Gummee]

Oh, oh, oh, OK, it wasn't that stuff that he did to that woman, or that stuff his dad said, or that stuff Mel said, right, right, right... slurp.

You obviously know more than I do. What did he do?

M

[pbarry]

All right then, come up with a better example off the top of your head.

It's winter...


M



Colin Kaepernick

[Burnette]

You obviously know more than I do. What did he do?

M

The novice who wrecks the car and then tries to hand me the keys? I have more milk, continue...slurp.

[Gummee]

All right then, come up with a better example off the top of your head.

It's winter...


M



Colin KaepernickYeah. That's a better example all right.

I'd forgotten about that guy

M

[Burnette]

:hello::hello::hello:

Listen up: once upon a time there was a podium girl named Mel Gibson, who was cute as a button and loved by everyone. But Mel had a secret. She was a he and when he got schickered became a foul-mouthed anti-semitic POS. In fact, the things he said were worse than you could publish or read on a blog about gender equality and opportunity...

You mustn't help him, he'll never grow if you do.

[sonicCows]

But please it'd be interesting to hear why you're an apologist for Mel Gibson

[Gummee]

The novice who wrecks the car and then tries to hand me the keys? I have more milk, continue...slurp.

Entertainers and their follies don't mean much to my life so I don't pay attention to them.

Politicians and their follies don't mean much to my life so I don't pay attention to them either.

so... Don't really care what ole Mel said or did to spend much time googling him.

M

[Burnette]

Entertainers and their follies don't mean much to my life so I don't pay attention to them.

Politicians and their follies don't mean much to my life so I don't pay attention to them either.

so... Don't really care what ole Mel said or did to spend much time googling him.

M

Then it would be wise to choose more carefully who to use when trying to make a point, yes?

[Corso]

"So at the end of the day, if getting rid of podium girls makes women in general more comfortable with and accepted into the sport of professional cycling, it seems like it's a no brainer - literally all upside and literally no downside.”

To the above quote:
How many women have said to you “you know, if they did away with podium girls, I may be attracted to cycling”

How many have said that to Ms Batty? Amanda want’s more women in the sport, and has put her money where her mouth is, but she wants women in the sport WHERE SHE wants them. Maybe a podium girl loves the sport, wants to be involved, but doesn’t want to race or train?

I’ll still watch F1, I’ll still watch the Tour, girls or not. I just think to eliminate someone else’s job because you don’t like whet they do is a bit selfish.

[Gummee]

Then it would be wise to choose more carefully who to use when trying to make a point, yes?

Got a point other than to point out that I'm typing extemporaneously?

M

[Burnette]

Got a point other than to point out that I'm typing extemporaneously?

M

You fell, I was just helped you back up. Continue...

[Brian Smith]

Patrick was pretty clear why he posted it. He's amplifying a voice from another perspective. Not surprisingly, there is not a single comment here from that demographic, which apparently doesn't diminish anyone's sense of expertise.
It's clear that Patrick views someone else's work as being worthy of reposting on his own journalistic-y site, that is true. He does state as much, in few words. He also states that he has had an interest in the topic for a long time. Silence on a subject over a long period, and then a quick re-posting of what is likely to become an incendiary statement, does not really qualify as providing perspective. What's more glaringly absent than "comments (here) from that demographic" is the performance (there) of journalism on a journalistic website, unless one's definition of journalism stops at accumulating others' words verbatim, when they come around to publishing some themselves, and then re-presenting them.

[Chris]

Does anyone see this from a women's rights perspective? There is a lot of irony here in that a female athlete (something very few women could dream of being because "well-meaning" people told them that it wasn't in their best interest to participate in such activities) is telling other women that their chosen endeavor isn't in their best interest and they need someone to look out for them and eliminate that choice by eliminating the endeavor. I guess every movement becomes its own dogma over time.

[nighthawk]

I don't know... I'm still much more interested in Amanda's opinion on this subject. It seems thoughtful and relevant, like it takes into consideration the bigger picture and isn't just defensive and argumentative.

I think I'll just keep listening to and supporting those who stand for positive and equitable changes in this world. Seems the least I could do, since they are the ones doing the actual work.

[Gummee]

I don't know... I'm still much more interested in Amanda's opinion on this subject. It seems thoughtful and relevant, like it takes into consideration the bigger picture and isn't just defensive and argumentative.

I think I'll just keep listening to and supporting those who stand for positive and equitable changes in this world. Seems the least I could do, since they are the ones doing the actual work.

So positive and equitable changes means taking someone's job away because you don't like what it stands for?

That makes sense?

M

[rustychisel]

So positive and equitable changes means taking someone's job away because you don't like what it stands for?

That makes sense?

M

Asked, answered, then debated, by someone a great deal more knowledgeable on the subject.

Right now your objection is looking like "I don't like her attitude". Period.

[ergott]

I’ll still watch F1, I’ll still watch the Tour, girls or not. I just think to eliminate someone else’s job because you don’t like whet they do is a bit selfish.


Literally no one else is commenting on their replacements which I mentioned already. They are going to use grid kids. That brings in the youth of the sport to meet their idols which is a great way to solidify your base.

My opinion is that's a step towards progress and good for the sport. Giving our youth positive opportunities makes more sense to me.

[witcombusa]

Literally no one else is commenting on their replacements which I mentioned already. They are going to use grid kids. That brings in the youth of the sport to meet their idols which is a great way to solidify your base.

My opinion is that's a step towards progress and good for the sport. Giving our youth positive opportunities makes more sense to me.

Dopers on the podium as idols... that'll get those kids off on the right track alright!
Make mine a podium girl...please :banana:

[David Tollefson]

I love this illustration. The fact that it's all about accommodations for people who didn't buy a ticket is never part of the discussion.
http://www.businessdisabilityinternational.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/equality-vs-equity.jpg

[peanutgallery]

Not to mention the loss of revenue as a result of the loss of advertising space

I love this illustration. The fact that it's all about accommodations for people who didn't buy a ticket is never part of the discussion.
http://www.businessdisabilityinternational.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/equality-vs-equity.jpg

[ergott]

Dopers on the podium as idols... that'll get those kids off on the right track alright!
Make mine a podium girl...please :banana:Glad you noticed I was talking about Formula-E and Formula 1, not cycling.[emoji52]

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[redir]

Does anyone see this from a women's rights perspective? There is a lot of irony here in that a female athlete (something very few women could dream of being because "well-meaning" people told them that it wasn't in their best interest to participate in such activities) is telling other women that their chosen endeavor isn't in their best interest and they need someone to look out for them and eliminate that choice by eliminating the endeavor. I guess every movement becomes its own dogma over time.

She has achieved a certain level in life and in the sport so I guess now she thinks she can dictate to others what they ought to do because it's the way she would do it. The irony kinda smacks you in the face.

[Gummee]

She has achieved a certain level in life and in the sport so I guess now she thinks she can dictate to others what they ought to do because it's the way she would do it. The irony kinda smacks you in the face.

She doesn't think so. When I pointed out the irony on RKP, she said I was 'sh-tting on women's cycling.' Um no. I'm merely pointing out that people in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

I guess it's irrelevant that the people actually WORKING as podium girls or grid girls like their jobs. However, f you're looking at them from the feminist perspective, it's obviously demeaning and represents the male-centric view of the world and needs to go. Through some screwy logic, eliminating women's jobs is somehow a good thing.

F1 has got to love the idea of grid kids. Imagine the $ savings not having to pay the grid girls! Mo money mo money! All disguised as 'being socially aware...'

M

[Gummee]

Not to mention the loss of revenue as a result of the loss of advertising space

There's also the assumption that there's a barrier in the first place.

IDK that there is necessarily a barrier per se. Anyone can start a team. The hard part is to make the $ work. ...and that's the hard part on the men's side as well. See also: the Italian pros 'pay to ride' scandal.

M

[Gsinill]

Didn't intend to chime in but coincidentally this article was published yesterday in the online edition of Der Spiegel (reputable German news magazine):
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fkarriere%2Fsexismu s-hostess-im-job-protokoll-natuerlich-bedienen-wir-maenner-fantasien-a-1191485.html&edit-text=&act=url

Viewpoint from a former hostess (grid girl, soccer event hostess etc.)
Have to take the content with a grain of salt though due to the translation.
I.e. in the very last paragraph, her statement "I would not advise my daughter - later on - to do this job" was actually translated into the exact opposite of the German sentence.
It should read: "I would not discourage my daughter - later on - from doing this job".

Not necessarily reflecting my opinion but opinion and context provided a) by a woman and b) someone that had this job.

[MattTuck]

Literally no one else is commenting on their replacements which I mentioned already. They are going to use grid kids. That brings in the youth of the sport to meet their idols which is a great way to solidify your base.

My opinion is that's a step towards progress and good for the sport. Giving our youth positive opportunities makes more sense to me.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second... what is the point of having ANYONE fill this role? [That is not rhetorical, I don't watch much racing and don't understand the need for grid-people.]

If it is bad to objectify women, (presumably they are there to evoke certain emotions in audiences), I'm not sure including children in their place (to evoke some different emotion) is any less exploitative.

[ergott]

Just to play devil's advocate for a second... what is the point of having ANYONE fill this role? [That is not rhetorical, I don't watch much racing and don't understand the need for grid-people.]

If it is bad to objectify women, (presumably they are there to evoke certain emotions in audiences), I'm not sure including children in their place (to evoke some different emotion) is any less exploitative.

Drivers are out on the tarmac for a long time before a race. They are in fireproof suits and it gets stifling. There are people that assist them by holding an umbrella so they are in the shade. Also there are people at each parked car that have a banner of sorts that marks who's car is who (the drivers know, it's for media and other people with grid access that might not). This has to be temporary as the grid is cleared quickly when it's time to fire up the engines.

[ergott]

Not necessarily reflecting my opinion but opinion and context provided a) by a woman and b) someone that had this job.

Insisting that people that had a particular job are the only people that have a valid opinion doesn't make sense. There are people in the porn industry (not comparing the two in any way) that love their jobs and would highly recommend it. There are others that got involved for less than ideal reasons. There are also plenty of people with very strong emotions either way that never had one of their jobs. Laws have even been written by people never in the industry.

We no podium/grid people can have a discussion about this just like anyone else. The input of people in the field can be very important but not necessarily the end all be all of opinions. There are too many of those to go around for any one opinion to be the correct answer.

People here have made valid point on both sides and clearly there will be no conclusion that everyone believes/agrees to. So long as people make mature, reasonable arguments either way I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

[spoonrobot]

IME the only thing women obsess over more than what men are doing is what other women are doing. The "rant" is both patronizing and condescending and really quite embarrassing. Logical fallacies abound and the overall message is muddled and confused.

I think the effort and energy would be better spent campaigning for equal prize money, equal race distance and equal airtime for women's races. Dictating that women should not be allowed to use their appearance for financial gain has no standing and not something that needs any further rebuttal.

[nmrt]

curious on many fronts on this topic. but have just one question for now:

if according to Batty, podium girl are partly responsible for not giving female athletes their respect/pay etc, then it my view it is the cycling community/viewers that are responsible, not the podium girls.

even if, hypothetically speaking, i agree that podium girls are simply eye candy and nothing more then should people not be able to distinguish between them and the female athletes and not just lump them together as "females" undeserving of respect?

the fault lies not in podium girls or the job they do. the fault lies with certain viewers who would equate podium girls and female athletes.

i would never disparage the podium girl nor her job. that is a slippery slope. who is to say without any ambiguity that in this world who contributes more to society.

having said all of this, yes, i find the whole idea of the job a podium girl, silly. to me it serves no purpose. i do not watch cycling races anymore. but when i did, i never understood the point of a podium girl.

[Gsinill]

Not discrediting anybody's opinion nor claiming that only those of people that have been directly involved are valid. Simply trying to add one more dimension to the discussion.

Insisting that people that had a particular job are the only people that have a valid opinion doesn't make sense. There are people in the porn industry (not comparing the two in any way) that love their jobs and would highly recommend it. There are others that got involved for less than ideal reasons. There are also plenty of people with very strong emotions either way that never had one of their jobs. Laws have even been written by people never in the industry.

We no podium/grid people can have a discussion about this just like anyone else. The input of people in the field can be very important but not necessarily the end all be all of opinions. There are too many of those to go around for any one opinion to be the correct answer.

People here have made valid point on both sides and clearly there will be no conclusion that everyone believes/agrees to. So long as people make mature, reasonable arguments either way I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

[Gummee]

Insisting that people that had a particular job are the only people that have a valid opinion doesn't make sense. Why not?

Well... maybe not the *only* people, but shouldn't they have a say?

There are people in the porn industry (not comparing the two in any way) that love their jobs and would highly recommend it. There are others that got involved for less than ideal reasons. There are also plenty of people with very strong emotions either way that never had one of their jobs. Laws have even been written by people never in the industry.That's a can of worms... Trying to legislate morality again.

We no podium/grid people can have a discussion about this just like anyone else. The input of people in the field can be very important but not necessarily the end all be all of opinions. There are too many of those to go around for any one opinion to be the correct answer.

People here have made valid point on both sides and clearly there will be no conclusion that everyone believes/agrees to. So long as people make mature, reasonable arguments either way I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

So if the manufacturers decided to no longer sell loose rims to wheelbuilders, making what you do obsolete, would you be upset? After all, the factory has greater safeguards built in to make sure their rims are built better by the machines than a person... They have more engineers figuring out empirically what spoke patterns and drillings are safer than a 'flying by the seat of the pants' aftermarket wheelbuilder. Me? I'm OK with that 'cause despite building wheels myself, I don't make a living doing it.

In the scenario above, you've become obsolete just like the podium girls and grid girls. How's that make you feel?

M

[old fat man]

IME the only thing women obsess over more than what men are doing is what other women are doing. The "rant" is both patronizing and condescending and really quite embarrassing. Logical fallacies abound and the overall message is muddled and confused.

I think the effort and energy would be better spent campaigning for equal prize money, equal race distance and equal airtime for women's races. Dictating that women should not be allowed to use their appearance for financial gain has no standing and not something that needs any further rebuttal.

NEVERMIND, wrong Batty

[ergott]

So if the manufacturers decided to no longer sell loose rims to wheelbuilders, making what you do obsolete, would you be upset?

It can and has happened. I used to build Zipp rims. There have been times when Hed wouldn't sell rims. Our industry as a whole has determined that custom wheels are a necessary and welcome option so it continues. Their industry has spoken and if you don't like their message, there are other forms of entertainment out there that you can find solace in.

[ergott]

Not discrediting anybody's opinion nor claiming that only those of people that have been directly involved are valid. Simply trying to add one more dimension to the discussion.

Didn't mean to imply you believed that, sorry. Just noting that her opinion is valid, but doesn't completely invalidate others.

[ergott]

They have more engineers figuring out empirically what spoke patterns and drillings are safer than a 'flying by the seat of the pants' aftermarket wheelbuilder.

This is flippant and not even true. You'd be amazed at the lack of actual engineering that going on in big companies with marketing departments. The knowledge base of the best wheel builders (there are many) out there is far and above most "wheel companies". I know I'm not alone in providing input into others' designs.

[ptourkin]

Emily is not sponsored by Porsche and Red Bull because of her very few podium finishes at the World Cup/Olympic level...

Check her instagram. She's a beautiful woman who is quite fast (but not top 5 generally) on a bike. Her sponsors are on board because of her looks just as much because of her above average (but not exceptional) bike racing ability.

and Emily didn't write this.

[Gummee]

This is flippant and not even true. You'd be amazed at the lack of actual engineering that going on in big companies with marketing departments. The knowledge base of the best wheel builders (there are many) out there is far and above most "wheel companies". I know I'm not alone in providing input into others' designs.

Of course it was flippant. So was Batty's rant. The short short version: those women don't represent me or what I believe, so they shouldn't have a job.

Now imagine if that was flipped: podium girl: eew! Those girls are dressing up in boy's clothing, riding a bicycle down a dangerous hill, and getting dirty and possibly hurt. They don't represent me or what I believe so they shouldn't have a job doing it.

The lack of empathy is staggering in the OP. In the short-sighted attempt to force the world into something resembling 'equality' the means shouldn't justify the ends. ...or you're just the same as anyone else.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

M

[old fat man]

and Emily didn't write this.

But she's begrudging others for using looks to gain employment

[Gummee]

:fight:But she's begrudging others for using looks to gain employment

The other Batty: Amanda

M

[Corso]

Amanda wrote this on her blog, patrick re-posted and brought it to a wider audience.

I went back and read a bunch of Amanda’s blog posts over the years. If you read her past blogs, the podium one is not so different than her others.

I suggest if anyone is truly interested in her view of her world, read more from her blog.

I think it’s unfair to have podium girls bear the weight of all that’s wrong with women’s cycling.

[old fat man]

and Emily didn't write this.

Ha, my bad.

[old fat man]

:fight:

The other Batty: Amanda

M

and Emily didn't write this.

Sorry, wrong Batty

[Gummee]

I think it’s unfair to have podium girls bear the weight of all that’s wrong with women’s fight for equality.

fixt

Podium girls and grid girls are a symptom and need to be eliminated and all will be closer to being right.

So to help women, we have to get a bunch of them fired from positions we don't agree with.

I seriously don't get the mentality in the OP. If someone's happy being a prostitute, who am I to argue? It isn't something *I'd* do or recommend to any theoretical offspring, but if it works for you? Go for it. Ditto with modeling or any other career that trades on looks over substance, but again, who am I to say what's right for someone else?

I'm living my life. Let other people live theirs.

M

[Burnette]

Like water, our culture will find it's own level for the time we're in and my voice, Batty's or those expressed here will have no effect upon it as a whole. Trying to push it from a narrow personal perspective won't work in your favor or against you for the majority ebbs and flows, you will win some and lose some.

For me, my eyes and my money will follow what I want them to. And so it will be for others and trust, they will find beauty and beauty will find them.

There are men and women who enjoy putting themselves out there for public expressions of beauty and those who enjoy in turn to look at them, And it isn't a naughty, bad thing. The individual should get have the power to move their personal prude meter to wherever they please but your neighbor in turn has their right to live as they too wish. And the world will change for neither.

A woman comfortable in her skin and proud to be seen in no way impedes a woman from earning a living riding a bicycle. The reason why it's hard for a woman to make a living riding a bicycle that is that the majority of men AND women don't watch cycling sports, the off road kind especially and women's in particular.

There is a rise of women's influence and power now but what quite a few here fail to realize is that women aren't a monolithic block where they all think alike. Just like us they are diverse in thought and opinion and unlike some of us, they aren't hung up in a victim like mentality, they can live in a bigger, more tolerant world that sees beauty and appreciates it. And so can I. I love me some grid and podium girls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH1JnG_Wisg

[fiamme red]

I thought it was well written and backed with some actual evidence for her position. An intelligent and well supported rant. If my daughter ever steps onto a podium I want it to be as an athlete not eye candy.If I had a daughter, I'd rather that she be a podium girl than a downhill MTB racer (like Batty). The latter is just too dangerous. She could do any other kind of bike racing (road, track, XC), but not downhill.

Similarly, I'd allow my (hypothetical) daughter to be a cheerleader, but I'd strenuously object to my (again hypothetical) son playing varsity football.

[fiamme red]

Amanda wrote this on her blog, patrick re-posted and brought it to a wider audience.

I went back and read a bunch of Amanda’s blog posts over the years. If you read her past blogs, the podium one is not so different than her others.

I suggest if anyone is truly interested in her view of her world, read more from her blog.I looked through a few of her posts and found this:

http://blog.amandabatty.com/2017/02/are-womens-specific-bikes-benevolent.html

Women's specific bikes is the dehumanization and 'othering' of a group that is connected solely by gender and gender orientation. It is nothing more. It is nothing less. And it's time we stopped pretending that gender is a barrier between humans, or that it dictates or predicts what human beings need or their individual desires.

[BobbyJones]

A lot of interesting viewpoints, and some circles being gone around but I stopped reading around page 6 or 7.

My question is: How many of you looked at the photo in the link and your first thoughts were either "Disgusting!" or "How barbaric!" or something along those lines?

[dbnm]

check this out

https://www.instagram.com/p/Be4Qzszj6af/

[nighthawk]

check this out

https://www.instagram.com/p/Be4Qzszj6af/

Thanks for sharing. Nice to see the positive contributions she is making to cycling, advocating for inclusiveness and being an inspiration to get more people riding.

I wonder if those with the strong negative comments in this thread care to share what they have done this week to encourage others to participate in cycling?

[sonicCows]

Thanks for sharing. Nice to see the positive contributions she is making to cycling, advocating for inclusiveness and being an inspiration to get more people riding.

I wonder if those with the strong negative comments in this thread care to share what they have done this week to encourage others to participate in cycling?

Interesting--IMO Batty's loyalty isn't to women per-se (by which their agency allows them to be doctors and/or models should they choose so), but to women's cycling

[auto_rock]

I'm a big fan of what Batty is arguing for, and agree.

I'd say that if you argue that podium girls are "harmless" or "a part of the entertainment" or "a way of attracting fans to the sport", on your next Saturday ride, to be consistent, help motivate your attractive but not-that-fast bike racer friends to pursue an alternate career as podium boys for women's races.

I'd suggest that male models should be hired for the job but the money's better spent on the prize purse for women's racing (at least until equal prize purses are a requirement, though they're more common each year).

[mjb266]

So to help women, we have to get a bunch of them fired from positions we don't agree with.

I seriously don't get the mentality in the OP. If someone's happy being a prostitute, who am I to argue?

I'm living my life. Let other people live theirs.

M

Okay, For starters, that Libertarian assumption that your actions aren’t impacting others is patently wrong. Your ideas go out into a marketplace of ideas and influence people. Your purchases help determine what products are viable and which fail. Your investments provide capital for others to act with. Your transportation and consumption decisions impact air and water quality. You vote. To claim that you are disconnected is to ignore the complexity and interconnectedness of our day.

Your very caring or not caring about a prostitute’s lot in life is a part of the systems that disallow or allow the continued victimization of girls and young women. It’s easy to say they chose that profession, but the reality is that girls, immigrants, LGBTQ persons (people without power) get coerced or forced into that line of work.

As for the idea that a woman standing up against the objectification of women in sport is somehow sexist signifies a fundamental understanding of sexism. Your argument fails to acknowledge the historical precedents regarding gender. You don’t acknowledge the history of podium girls, the history banning women from sport, or the history subjugating women’s athletics. Decontextualized, your argument makes sense; preventing women from work is sexist. Situated socially, historically, and culturally, your argument falls apart.

We are not simply “getting women fired from positions we don’t agree with”. Instead, we are shifting markets such that formerly objectifying and objectionable practices, practices understood historically, are andoned by those who want us to buy their product.

P.S.- standing up for prostitution is standing up for the rape of children, violence towards women by pumps, and the indentured servitude of immigrants. The “if they are happy” bull**** doesn’t hold water.

[mjb266]

Of course it was flippant. So was Batty's rant. The short short version: those women don't represent me or what I believe, so they shouldn't have a job.

The lack of empathy is staggering in the OP. In the short-sighted attempt to force the world into something resembling 'equality' the means shouldn't justify the ends. ...or you're just the same as anyone else.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

M

Again, your thought exercises are devoid of historical context. Equality is not what she advocates at all. Instead, she is going against a sexism that is historically situated. To toss out hypotheticals is to introduce false equivalencies.
The kettle has hundreds of years of oppression while the pot just got here. If either one is black, well then it gets even more historically situated.

[witcombusa]

Okay, For starters, that Libertarian assumption that your actions aren’t impacting others is patently wrong. Your ideas go out into a marketplace of ideas and influence people. Your purchases help determine what products are viable and which fail. Your investments provide capital for others to act with. Your transportation and consumption decisions impact air and water quality. You vote. To claim that you are disconnected is to ignore the complexity and interconnectedness of our day.

Your very caring or not caring about a prostitute’s lot in life is a part of the systems that disallow or allow the continued victimization of girls and young women. It’s easy to say they chose that profession, but the reality is that girls, immigrants, LGBTQ persons (people without power) get coerced or forced into that line of work.

As for the idea that a woman standing up against the objectification of women in sport is somehow sexist signifies a fundamental understanding of sexism. Your argument fails to acknowledge the historical precedents regarding gender. You don’t acknowledge the history of podium girls, the history banning women from sport, or the history subjugating women’s athletics. Decontextualized, your argument makes sense; preventing women from work is sexist. Situated socially, historically, and culturally, your argument falls apart.

We are not simply “getting women fired from positions we don’t agree with”. Instead, we are shifting markets such that formerly objectifying and objectionable practices, practices understood historically, are andoned by those who want us to buy their product.

P.S.- standing up for prostitution is standing up for the rape of children, violence towards women by pumps, and the indentured servitude of immigrants. The “if they are happy” bull**** doesn’t hold water.


You sir are drinking all the PC punch in the bowl!

[peanutgallery]

Next thing you know, you're riding a double decker bike thru Portland

You sir are drinking all the PC punch in the bowl!

[dbnm]

Over 200 comments (from men) and 5000 views (from men) about what a female thinks about a female issue.

[Tony T]

Over 200 comments (from men) and 5000 views (from men) about what a female thinks about a female issue.

Let me explain to you why that is ;)

[ergott]

You sir are drinking all the PC punch in the bowl!

Why do you come to conversations only to start crap? You haven't commented anything meaningful to either side of the conversation, only snark. That's exactly how threads get derailed and ill will is spread.

[mjb266]

You sir are drinking all the PC punch in the bowl!

Yeah, I guess saying the prostitution of children and people without power is wrong might be PC. I’d say it is more an issue of morality & Justice. But whatever.

[Tickdoc]

time to pull this one out before the banning of the thread.

https://i.imgur.com/4cgoswMl.jpg

[Clancy]

time to pull this one out before the banning of the thread.

https://i.imgur.com/4cgoswMl.jpg

Yep, this should certainly kill this thread

[witcombusa]

Why do you come to conversations only to start crap? You haven't commented anything meaningful to either side of the conversation, only snark. That's exactly how threads get derailed and ill will is spread.

The entire thread is about opinion, including the OP posting...I added mine.

[Black Dog]

Over 200 comments (from men) and 5000 views (from men) about what a female thinks about a female issue.

A female issue? It is an issue for all society.

[ergott]

The entire thread is about opinion, including the OP posting...I added mine.

You derided someone else's opinion and added nothing to the actual content of discussion. But hey if that's how you want to be known, far be it from me to tell you otherwise.

Before the eventual lock, thanks those that disagreed with me but kept it civil. It was for while it lasted.

[William]

The lock is in.

Opinions have been expressed and it is clear it is not something that is going to be resolved in this thread before the downward spirial.

Catch your breath, go for a ride, and then you are welcome to try again in another thread. This one has run its course.







William