Inner Tube Preference

[Jeff Weir]

Any preference regarding inner tubes? Are the super light ones the way to go or do they tend to be too prone to flats? Any and all opinons welcome.

[Bruce K]

Funny you should be asking this as the question came up on our Monday night club ride.

There was a guy there who was a former mechanic for a pro team who is also a part time racer. He said that tube do fact a big difference in ride quality. He went on to say that Michelin engineers felt so strongly about this fact that it was the primary reason Michelin did their own bicycle tubes.

Personally, I have not noticed a greater number of flats with tubes like the Michelin A1 or Conti Race Light. My LBS is pushing the new Bontrager tubes as being of equal quality at a better price.

I have loved the ride of the Salsa tubes but did experience a little less durability with them.

Overall, I have had more flats in the past 4+ seasons from my own errors in mounting that created pinch flats than I have from road hazards.

BK

[Kevin]

I have never noticed a ride difference in tubes. I have been using Specialized Ultralite tubes for a few years and have not had any increased problems with flats.

Kevin

[dbrk]

Ahhh, the wonders of what's on the box. Anyone wanna bet that the vast majority of tubes (we're talking VAST here...) are made in the same factory in Taiwan? The real question of measuring quality is still there, albeit only an issue of sourcing, not manufacture. I know one thing for sure: the tubes from Performance and Nashbar are not worth the box in which they arrive. Others, like whatever comes in a Trek/Bontrager/whatever box, are totally hit and miss. Some seem to hold air and never flat; others are flat before you pump them, leaving aside pinch flat mounting and bad valves. So while clincher tires are better than ever, tubes generally stink and the idea that Michelin and Conti make better ones does not signify to me. I've tried every sort, actually ordering tubes when I don't need more, just to see if there are quality differences. All I can tell are the really bad ones from the ones that more or less aren't horrible and then, before I mount them, I put them in a big pile on the basement floor and do this sort of Costner-ish dance around them muttering the three words of Lakota that I know. When that fails, or rather the tubes fail, I pull out the Rg Veda (which I learned to chant in India, that being a true story unlike the first bit...) and really go after the next pile with consummate pieties to the Tube Gods. Your mileage may vary, as they say. (It taking about 10 years for me to realize that YMMV is what that Internet abbreviation is supposed to be...not too bright for a guy who went to school, eh?)
Oh yeah, one more thing: I know how to mount a tube. I know the baby powder tricks, the proper use of tire irons, the old VAR tool thing, you name it. Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you don't. Any other questions? YMMV.

dbrk

[Andreu]

Can´t say I have noticed a difference. I use Specialized i.tubes and they work fine. Weather and the type of crap on the road seems to play an important part in inner tube life (wet, flint stones or snail shells = not good).
Had a set of Vitoria (opens) tyres with latex inner tubes and they road beautifully in the dry - but probably a function of the tyre over the inner tube-
A

[Too Tall]

DBRK is going to be Siskel and I'll be Ebert on this one. *Can't remember which one is dead...doesn't matter, the humor ain't lost ;)

For the last 10 yrs. I've only used Performance brand 700c 19-23 road tubes. I get them on sale for under $3 a tube and have never as in never had a defect in the tube or stem....and at that price I don't repair flats.

The absolute worst batch of tubes I ever got was a gift of conti 700c road tubes. Every freakin' one of them popped at the valve seam.

It's worth mentioning you will have better luck with any tube if you buy the correct size...why???? Because as you pump the tire rubber will thin to the manufacturers designed spec. and work as intended. If you think you are slick buying those 700X18c tubes and pumping them to 700X23 you are playing a losing game. Also, talc talc and more talc. I get mine "USP" in 1 lb jugs that last forever from the pharmacist. Use a dab in a slide lock baggie with your spare tubes and work a tsp. into your tire with every new tube you install. Oh, use Velox rim tape or my new fav. Schwalbe rim strips and thats the best we can do :)

...and I thought the author was disingenuous (just wanted to use that word).

[mfb1001]

I'm going to ditto Too Tall. I've been using the performance brand ones for years and have very little problems compared with conti, which I've blown the valve on (in the middle of a ride). the only problem with performance, don't know who they get there's from, is the stem is too tall or too short. have to use the tall stems for the cxp33 rims.

[Sandy]

I recently returned a few Performance inner tubes. I use the regular length valve stem size, but these appeared to be in between the length of what Performance was using for their regular Presta vavle inner tubes and those with the long stems for deeper rim wheels.


Sandy

[victoryfactory]

Also...
How about valve stems? The theaded ones seem to chew up the innards on my floor pump and make it hard to pull off the pump head.

And the non theaded valves (Like Michelin) allow the then chewed up pump head to slip off the valve while pumping!

Hmmm....

I buy tubes by WEIGHT The thinner (70g-98g) ones seem to flat sooner
The thicker (100g-200g) ones seem to last longer.

If I had a Michelin service car following me around, I guess I'd go for the light tubes. But in the "real" world, give me more rubber on the road.

Victory Factory, who will trade 50g of rotating weight for less flats

Note to DBRK: I think the stuff about tubes and tires is in the Yajur Veda

[Birddog]

Had a Vittorio/Conti rep talk to our club last fall and this came up. For sure, most of the tubes are made by one co in either Thailand or Taiwan, I don't remember which. The ones with the labels are made to that co's standards. The generics are sold to whomever. One of the primary culprits is age, esp on the shelf, in the wrong conditions. Personally, I've seemingly had a little better luck with the brand name ones, they seem to have fewer inherent defects. Never kept a tally though, so that's all speculative. I've also witnessed a friend go through three name brand tubes out in Colorado in less than a day. They were all defective and they all failed near the valve stem, but since they were 650's we speculated that they had been in the shop for awhile bfore he bought them.

Birddog

[pjm]

Just bought some Specialized long stem prestas. They now come pre-talced in a little ziploc bag. What a great idea!

[Too Tall]

*Note to self: day one of conspiracy.

[Ozz]

I am not sure what tubes are in my tires...they were installed by the bike shop and I have not had the "opportunity" to replace them.

However, the valves on them behave like none I have used before. When I pump up my tires, the presta valve does not release and allow air into the tube until I hit about 200psi. Then it clicks and, and I can bring the tires up to pressure (110 - 120).

Have any of you had this experience?

It is a royal pain in arse...I have taken to deflating my tires before pumping them up which allows the valve to release at a lower pressure.

Back on topic, I have not noticed much difference between butyl tubes. I have used performance, specialized, conti, and michelin (regular and ultralight). The only perceivable difference was price. Also, in my experience, all latex tubes are crap. I have used Vittoria, Michelin, and another brand I cannot remember the name of....it was pink.

[gt6267a]

Ozz,

I seem to have the same problem with every tube company. specialized / wrench force / bontrager ...

though not high-end wrench force seems to be the tube of choice by the local shops. they don't have the name and i don't know the weight, but so far the are working fine.

-k

[mfb1001]

One thing I do b/4 pumping is, first unscrew the little "nipple" :) , then press it and let a little air out. It seems to unseat the pressure behind the valve and then I can start pumping. I hope this makes sense, It works for me.

[Matt Barkley]

Michelin A1 tubes short stem and long stem (service course , butyl.) As stated before they are easy on the chucks of your pumps! The only tube I have experienced consistent quality control with is the Michelins. - Matt

[dgauthier]

I have used three brands of tubes:

Specialized: Fine. A generic Taiwanese tube. Nothing great about 'em, nothing bad.

Bontrager: Suck. Hate 'em. So heavy it's enough to be noticable, yet they flat quite nicely just the same, thank you. They also seem to be about 2 inches *too long* in circumference! There always seems to be 1.5 to 2 inches of extra tube hanging out between the tire and the rim that I have to stuff in with my fingers. They're so bad it makes me leery of other Bontrager products.

Michelin A1: Great. Light, durable, well made, with unthreaded valve stems that don't chew up your pump heads, and pre-talc'd too. The perfect butyl tube. Provided Michelin doesn't ruin them one day, I will never buy another brand of tube.

I'd never buy latex tubes. I always seem to be giving my spare tubes away to stranded cyclists with flat latex tubes.

[davids]

I am not sure what tubes are in my tires...they were installed by the bike shop and I have not had the "opportunity" to replace them.

However, the valves on them behave like none I have used before. When I pump up my tires, the presta valve does not release and allow air into the tube until I hit about 200psi. Then it clicks and, and I can bring the tires up to pressure (110 - 120).

Have any of you had this experience?


I've had exactly your experience - the tubes that Wheelworks sold me with my build have lasted over a year now, through more than one change of rubber. I'm quite pleased that I haven't had that opportunity either!

And they act the same way when I pump, too. I only have to get to 165psi or so before the valves cooperate...

[Kevan]

mfb is spot on, unscrew the nip', give it an inward push to unseat it, and then begin your blowing...er, pumping. Blasting your way in using the might pressure of your pump is bound to cause premature....um, problems. I'm sorry, am I gonna get in trouble for talking this way?!

The art of the tube and its replacement: a little talc goes a long way, one guy I rode with got lost in a veritable snow storm when he went to unfold his new tube. Very classy. Frankly the stuff that comes already applied to the tube is generally enough, unless you're in the midst of a monsoon.

Before installing the new tube check the tire for naughties that might violate your virgin tube. Then unscrew the nip' and actually blow (yeah! with your mouth!)into the open valve to fill the tube slightly, it's faster than installing your pump to do the same. Screw that nip' closed. Putting the air in the tube before installation gives it shape and helps protect it from twisting or being pinched by the reinstalled tire. Now follow the directions for installing the tube and tire back on the rim, as everyone should have read when they were getting their "Bicycling" magazine delivered to their door.

Here are some other helpful hints: wrapping the folded new tube in a little piece of plastic wrap helps keep it dry and talc'd, as well as, keeping it bound for smushing into your itsy saddlebag; you don't need the plastic valve cap other than to protect the folded tube from the valve itself; the little washer nut thingy.... useless... get used to pressing your thumb down on the tire opposite from the valve when installing the pump valve, that's how the big boys do it. Less is more.

I'm not even going to grace this thread with a discussion about valve decorations.

[Tom]

Sheesh. A regular loop I do includes about two miles of that road and sure enough, last night I pick up a teeny shard of metal that looked a lot like the end of a staple when I pulled it out of my tube. At this rate I'm going to get really fast at changes. In the last three times around, two flats on that stretch of road. I hope this is a statistical anomaly because I went 4500 miles last year and the only flat was cause I pulled the valve stem up through the rim.

Last weekend I went on a local pilgrimage to find tubes with mid or long stems. Three shops, two were all out. The last shop, actually owned by a rider, I latch on to the Salsas. Good tubes. How that guy stays in business, I don't know. The first two shops were packed with people buying BMX bikes. The last place, he has one guy poking around who he promptly leaves to jabber about the NRBQ show we both were at, and then makes a $20 sale of a handful of tubes and CO2 cartridges. Nice guy, but not the most astute businessman.

[Spinner]

i have a ten-year-old vittoria latex tube on an open pro wheel that i routinely ride. it has never gone flat, except over time with no inflation. i think it has probably seen 5 to 6 tire changes. it's like the phil wood of tubes.

kevan, it looks like you read my manual on tube mounting, storing, etc. yes it is best to always unseat the valve before inflation and yes, always manually blow some air into a tube before installation.

those big rubber bands used around produce also work well for wrapping around a plastic covered tube in the saddlebag.

[froze]

I found out one thing, stay away from Performance tubes. Usually I use Specialize Ultralight they weigh about 65 grams, I found these to flat no more or less than a standard tube...except maybe a thorn resistent tube but who uses those? Stay away from Slime tubes as well, they do not work at stopping flats above 60-65psi and will blow green slime all over the inside of your rim. If you want flat protection you need to get different tires. I tried Conti Race light tubes which are seamless if that matters, that weighed 50 grams and liked them but the LBS stopped carrying them. Also tried the Michelin ultralight 70 gram tube and liked those too! So really in regards to the those brands I don't have a favorite as long as they weigh less than 75 grams. On cheaper tubes I found the quality of the butyl to be less and the valves do not work as well or last as long.

I used latex for a few years but found repairing flats to be pain, BUT supposely the glueless patches work on them but I haven't tried it yet to see...does anyone know if thats true? By the way I found latex tubes to be less susceptible to flats then butyl and they seemed to feel better while riding than butyl. But the hassle of filling them with air everyday, even on long rides or 5 to 8 hours you would lose about 20 to 25 psi, and the repairablity problem forced me to go back to butyl.

By the way do not use ultralight tubes IF your using any kind of flat strips inside your tires, the strips will rub a hole into those lighter tubes.

[froze]

Sheesh. A regular loop I do includes about two miles of that road and sure enough, last night I pick up a teeny shard of metal that looked a lot like the end of a staple when I pulled it out of my tube. .

Most of those "metal shards" you pick up on the street are steel from steel belted tires that people have allowed to show through their tires from wear or neglect and still drive on them; the steel shreds off in bits as the pavement scrubs at the tire; and then along comes a cyclist and poof.

[Tom]

Most of those "metal shards" you pick up on the street are steel from steel belted tires that people have allowed to show through their tires from wear or neglect and still drive on them; the steel shreds off in bits as the pavement scrubs at the tire; and then along comes a cyclist and poof.

Maybe I start to notice things and then they lodge in my head so I start seeing patterns that aren't there, but I have been under the impression that I've been seeing a lot of cars pulled over with flat tires since last fall. It seems like I see one about every other day, and I don't drive all that far to work. Now you point out where that metal might have come from and it all starts fitting together.

Are Vittoria tubes any good? The only shop convenient to my drive home that has any tubes has only these.

[djg]

(generally use vittoria) and I think it's because they feel better.

[Ozz]

"i have a ten-year-old vittoria latex tube on an open pro wheel that i routinely ride. it has never gone flat, except over time with no inflation. i think it has probably seen 5 to 6 tire changes. it's like the phil wood of tubes."

I think you got the only one.... :rolleyes:

[dgauthier]

"i have a ten-year-old vittoria latex tube on an open pro wheel that i routinely ride. it has never gone flat"

I think you got the only one.... :rolleyes:

Worse yet, now that you've told us all about it, tomorrow it will flat.

[Spinner]

you're right. i should not have brought it up. i'll advise if the flat demon rears his ugly head.

[Brian]

OK... I've heard about people using this stuff on tubes. I even have a guy in my club who swears by it. But I've never used it and have no problems with flats.

How's this stuff supposed to help and how do you use it?

[Ozz]

It lubricates the tube to help prevent pinch flats and wrinkles in tube when inflating tire.

You just need to coat your tube in it. I put my tubes in a zip lock back, add some powder, shake, and store in seat bag.

WARNING: Eventually, the zip lock will get a hole in it, and the powder will make a mess all over inside of your seat bag, and will leak thru zipper.

[Andreu]

Worse yet, now that you've told us all about it, tomorrow it will flat.
I would change it now just to be on the safe side :rolleyes:
A

[froze]

OK... I've heard about people using this stuff on tubes. I even have a guy in my club who swears by it. But I've never used it and have no problems with flats.

How's this stuff supposed to help and how do you use it?

"Powdering" your tubes do not do anything for your tubes! It's some sort of old wives tale that got started by cyclist. Rip open a tubular and you will not find any powder in them, they do not prepack tubes with powder, the tube or tire companies do not have directions on their boxes requesting you powder the tubes. Powder does not prevent flats nor prevent your tire from sticking to the tube-it won't stick anyway! I keep a spare tube in my seat bag but it's in the original box, not in a baggy, since a baggy can be penetrated by some sort of object in the seatbag and thus a chance of penetrating the tube.

[Andreu]

I think I vaguely remember someone telling me once it aids with keeping the tubes dry but a well sealed bag would do the same trick....and once on the rim I cannot believe a well talced tube would be any better than untalced especially after a few hundred miles (in rain etc)....unless you retalced after every of couple of hundred miles. Which would be a pain.
A

[Ozz]

I use it for two reasons:

1 - When I first started riding, I used to get lots of pinch flats. I read that talc would help so I tried it.

2 - I do it cuz since I implemented reason number one, I no longer gets pinch flats.

Coincidence??? Maybe. Maybe I just got better at installing tires. But why mess with it....

[froze]

I use it for two reasons:

1 - When I first started riding, I used to get lots of pinch flats. I read that talc would help so I tried it.

2 - I do it cuz since I implemented reason number one, I no longer gets pinch flats. ....


So you guys won't believe the regular guys, you still want to be sucked into the old wives tale about powedering your tubes. So I did some research on the old internet and found an article by Jobst Brandt, for those who don't know who he is, he is one of the foremost wheel builders in the US and has extensive knowledge of bicyles. The following information came from: http://www.yarchive.net/bike/tire_talc.html

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc
Subject: Re: Tube Problem or Tire Problem?HELP!
Date: 15 Nov 1996 00:18:15 GMT

Dale (anonymous) writes:

>> the tube. Talcum has no benefits other than to make tube removal
>> from the tire casing easy.

> I would argue that it can also make the action of putting a tyre on
> much easier as well.

When WOULD you argue that, or do you mean you believe that it helps
but don't want to commit yourself to such a tenuous contention. Maybe
you'll explain how talcum can facilitate mounting a tire.

In the days before tubeless tires on cars, automotive tubes that were
not much thicker than the heavier bicycle tubes vulcanized into the
tire from the heat of the road and would rip when forcefully removed.
For this purpose, talcum was extensively used. Bicycles don't have
enough power not enough rolling resistance to generate vulcanizing
temperatures required to cause such adhesion so using talc has little
purpose. You'll notice that tubes contain talcum, and that is for the
purpose of preventing adhesion in the package of two absolutely clean
surfaces. You don't have that problem. In fact, adhesion of the tube
to the casing prevents rapid air escape in the event of a thorn
penetration.

Talcum, like tying and soldering, will last as much as 40 years after
the last need for it vanished. The last need for tying spokes
together at their crossings vanished with high wheeled bicycles that
threw the rider if a spoke broke and lashed about freely. Talcum in a
bicycle tire never had a reason, it has always been done in imitation
of automobiles, but even they don't use it anymore.

Jobst Brandt <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>