Hypothetical - Would you buy a copy of your custom frame for 50% off?

[NYCfixie]

Assume you had a custom mid-reach brake Ti frame made for you but it was sent back twice and tubes replaced because something kept getting lost in translation about build specs. By the third time, you said "please make a new one or give me my money back". A new one was made and you kept it. Now, about 18 months later, that original frame/fork in perfect condition not ridden since you parted with it is being offered to you at 50% off the original price. Would you buy it?

The bikes are identical in every way including setup for mid-reach brakes (unique to your very non-standard proportions) except for the following:

Frame/fork #1 (original): three bottle mounts, no fender mounts
Frame/fork #2 (the one you have now): two bottle mounts, fender mounts on fork and frame

To help you answer this hypothetical question I will add this:
- You have a unique fit and stock bikes just do not work for you so anything else new is going to be custom
- Your plan all along was to have 2 sets of wheels with different tires and swap between 32mm knobby for off-road and 28mm slick for pavement
- You never got around to it because people made you concerned about gears not shifting and brakes not lining up correctly when swapping wheels
- If you bought the original frame #1 at 50% off you could set it up identical in every way and just have your 32mm knobby wheels on it. You really do no want fenders on this one anyway because it is an all-road bike and you have a third water bottle mount for those days you disappear for hours in the woods where you do not have access to extra water
- You could also now setup #2 for road use and keep the fenders on it all the time.

What would you do if this hypothetical situation presented itself?
Would you setup both as listed above?
Would you set them up differently?
Would you just pass on the offer to get #1 at 50% off an use the money to fund something totally different in the future?

*** You have #2 now and you love it. The only issue with #1 was it was cut up and welded more than once but have been told it does not matter with Ti. The frame comes from a trusted builder and is otherwise perfect at this point ***

Any and all opinions welcome...

[fa63]

Sounds like you want us to justify buying back frame #1 :)

Personally, I say pass on the offer and use the money for something else.

[chiasticon]

just call up Seven and give 'em your CC info already :banana:

[Jaybee]

Personally, I wouldn't want two bicycles that have such close design parameters and possible uses, especially if it was going to preclude getting another bike that had a different use case down the road.

[simonov]

What was wrong with #1 that made you not like it compared with #2?

[NYCfixie]

just call up Seven and give 'em your CC info already :banana:

Not exactly correct but good try....the "hypothetical" transaction will have an intermediary.

Personally, I wouldn't want two bicycles that have such close design parameters and possible uses, especially if it was going to preclude getting another bike that had a different use case down the road.

It will or at least delay for a few years.

[NYCfixie]

What was wrong with #1 that made you not like it compared with #2?

In this hypothetical situation...

#1 was back and forth for several weeks to fix issues with the original design (it was made clear through documentation that it was not my fault), frame/fork was stripped and built a few times, and when it came back for the last time, a few non-geometry and ride characteristic details were left out or wrong so it would have needed to be taken apart again and new tubes welded in again. At that point, it was enough and they started from the beginning and built a new frame that was 100% correct resulting in #2.

[jtakeda]

I’d pass but it depends on what 50% is.

50% of 4K?

50% of 1200?

If it was less than $1000 I’d consider it, otherwise nope.
Sounds like custom ti is gonna be closer to 3k so passssss

[FlashUNC]

The gearing and shifting thing is a non-issue. Just get two sets of wheels building around the same hub if you're that worried about it.

Why buy back a bike you didn't like enough to ship back twice?

[Ttx1]

I understand when people buy back frames they regret selling later, but this is different.

There's little or no utility value in a frame that isn't right for you, so 50% off is 50% too much.

A "good deal" shouldn't change how you feel about the frame...

[Frankwurst]

What is the hypothetical geometry of said hypothetical bike? Perhaps there is some hypothetical person out there that would be interested if the buyer of #2 isn't. I'd be willing to bet someone would jump on it.If I was the owner of #2 I'd buy #1 back and do exactly what you said. One with fenders set up for whatever and one without set up for the nasty stuff.:beer:

[simonov]

In this hypothetical situation...

#1 was back and forth for several weeks to fix issues with the original design (it was made clear through documentation that it was not my fault), frame/fork was stripped and built a few times, and when it came back for the last time, a few non-geometry and ride characteristic details were left out or wrong so it would have needed to be taken apart again and new tubes welded in again. At that point, it was enough and they started from the beginning and built a new frame that was 100% correct resulting in #2.

So #1 is hypothetically the right geometry and ride characteristics but missing some hypothetical baubles? If it fits and those baubles don't matter to you on a "B bike" then why not. Since it's just hypothetical, the actual dollar amount or space taken up by it is a non-issue. In the event it's not hypothetical, and you can fit it into your life, I'd still say to go for it. Sometimes it's fun to have multiple bikes that are redundant on paper but not in practice. I vote yes!

[NYCfixie]

I’d pass but it depends on what 50% is.

50% of 4K?
50% of 1200?

If it was less than $1000 I’d consider it, otherwise nope.
Sounds like custom ti is gonna be closer to 3k so passssss

2k buy in for #1


The gearing and shifting thing is a non-issue. Just get two sets of wheels building around the same hub if you're that worried about it.

Why buy back a bike you didn't like enough to ship back twice?

Good idea if it works and less expensive (you might seem some wheels listed in the classifieds in a few days to fund two similar sets or at least 1 new one to match a set I already have).


I understand when people buy back frames they regret selling later, but this is different.

There's little or no utility value in a frame that isn't right for you, so 50% off is 50% too much.

A "good deal" shouldn't change how you feel about the frame...

You know most of the story - no need to disclose here. At this point #1 is exactly the same as #2 except for no fender mounts, a third under downtube water bottle mount, and a seattube bottle mount that only allows for a very small water bottle due to standover and full frame pup - pump peg on both frames.

What is the hypothetical geometry of said hypothetical bike? Perhaps there is some hypothetical person out there that would be interested if the buyer of #2 isn't. I'd be willing to bet someone would jump on it.If I was the owner of #2 I'd buy #1 back and do exactly what you said. One with fenders set up for whatever and one without set up for the nasty stuff.:beer:

I'll post if I pass. I like your contrarian thinking about buy-back.:hello:

[timto]

I'd say skip it and do something different. For 2k can you find an Fbuilder that will build something awesome and cool for 32' knobbies and mini moto's ? probably something with brakes better suited to 32' knobbies and more clearances for more riding options? For the forest rambling type rides heck you can open up a whole world of tire widths with canti/mini moto that are better than mid reach. I've seen pics of 40mm 700c tires under mini moto!

[choke]

2k buy in for #1For $2k....nope, I'd pass.

[foo_fighter]

Cut up #1 again and add couplers.

[Dave B]

I wish I was as sensitive to ride fit as some of you are. I don't think any of my bikes look the same. Some are wacky geo, but roughly the same TT length.

I am sure if I was some sort of serious rider it would matter, but I am amazed at how folks can tell about tubing types, small angle or measurement changes or stuff like that. I (no sarcasm intended) am envious and fascinated that some of you are able to feel those differences.

[false_Aest]

Put that money to something that scratches another itch.

[Jad]

I'd say skip it and do something different. For 2k can you find an Fbuilder that will build something awesome and cool for 32' knobbies and mini moto's ? probably something with brakes better suited to 32' knobbies and more clearances for more riding options? For the forest rambling type rides heck you can open up a whole world of tire widths with canti/mini moto that are better than mid reach. I've seen pics of 40mm 700c tires under mini moto!

+1 on this.

[weisan]

I have a unique fit and stock bikes just do not work for you so anything else new is going to be custom

This appears to me, to be the most important reason to be seriously considering buying the second identical frame.

Because there's no way for you to get another custom of similar quality at that price.

This predicates on the assumption that the frame builder hit a homerun with the the current bike you are riding, that you have put significant miles into it since you got it to know that is true, and it's so good that everytime you get on it, it brings you tears of joy and you can't imagine another bike outperforming what you already have. And you intend to keep this bike for a long time.

in that case, in the grand scheme of things, it's a small price to pay to get another spare lifetime bike.

[NYCfixie]

Cut up #1 again and add couplers.

I was thinking about couplers or leaving it "whole" and at my brothers house/garage in Colorado. With 3 siblings and my mother all now in the Denver area it would be nice to have a bike there for when I visit a few times a year.

I wish I was as sensitive to ride fit as some of you are. I don't think any of my bikes look the same. Some are wacky geo, but roughly the same TT length.

I am sure if I was some sort of serious rider it would matter, but I am amazed at how folks can tell about tubing types, small angle or measurement changes or stuff like that. I (no sarcasm intended) am envious and fascinated that some of you are able to feel those differences.

I do not claim to know about all that stuff other than I know how things feel and more importantly I have a unique fit. I am 5'8" with very very short arms, very very short legs, and long torso for my height. You know anyone with 68cm BB to top of saddle, 46cm tip of saddle to bars, and who is 5'8"? If yes, let me know because this bike would be perfect for them.

This appears to me, to be the most important reason to be seriously considering buying the second identical frame.

Because there's no way for you to get another custom of similar quality at that price.

This predicates on the assumption that the frame builder hit a homerun with the the current bike you are riding, that you have put significant miles into it since you got it to know that is true, and it's so good that everytime you get on it, it brings you tears of joy and you can't imagine another bike outperforming what you already have. And you intend to keep this bike for a long time.

in that case, in the grand scheme of things, it's a small price to pay to get another spare lifetime bike.

Yes to all; so much so that N=1 for more than 2 years now.

[joosttx]

Cannot imagine how the OP instructions would be lost in translation.... This premise is so convoluted.

[Dave B]

I was thinking about couplers or leaving it "whole" and at my brothers house/garage in Colorado. With 3 siblings and my mother all now in the Denver area it would be nice to have a bike there for when I visit a few times a year.



I do not claim to know about all that stuff other than I know how things feel and more importantly I have a unique fit. I am 5'8" with very very short arms, very very short legs, and long torso for my height. You know anyone with 68cm BB to top of saddle, 46cm tip of saddle to bars, and who is 5'8"? If yes, let me know because this bike would be perfect for them.



Yes to all; so much so that N=1 for more than 2 years now.

My question wasn't for you or any judgment. I don't care if you buy the bike or not. I literally purchased the exact same bike I bought and sold years later.

Would I buy the same bike twice or buy two of the same bike, hell yes.

[12snap]

Your original plan was a 2nd set of wheels to swap when necessary. You could get a 3rd set of bottle mounts added to your current frame and then the only difference between the two frames would be fender mounts. Are you comfortable with and is it worth it to you to spend probably $3K+ ($2K frame plus the build kit and wheels) on a 2nd bike just so you can leave fenders on and not have to swap wheels?

You say that N=1 and has been for 2 years. Has that changed? Are you now feeling like you need N +1?

I'm all for having multiple bikes but I personally like variety. I have a go fast, racy road bike and a relaxed, bigger tire, gravel bike. Each is great for their intended purpose with the necessary geometry differences to accommodate that end.

[NYCfixie]

My question wasn't for you or any judgment. I don't care if you buy the bike or not. I literally purchased the exact same bike I bought and sold years later.

Would I buy the same bike twice or buy two of the same bike, hell yes.

didn't read it negatively nor was my response meant to be rude/nasty/sarcastic.

I thought your comment was quite helpful.

I was being serious, if I do not get it and someone has similar fit needs I can let them know about it.

[NYCfixie]

Cannot imagine how the OP instructions would be lost in translation.... This premise is so convoluted.

Assuming you are talking about the initial frame build...

I was bounced between three different people at the bike shop during the interview/fit/follow up conversations, many of the parts the shop ordered were wrong, the frame build was not correct, the parts build was not correct, and so anything sent to the builder was on them. To this day, I still have the wrong stem (does not match what the original bike shop order sheet shows) which was one of many things they got wrong.

I had the good sense to document via email, and copy all three people, after every in-person, in-store, or phone conversation which later proved very helpful to me when it was shown that I was clear regarding my needs but others had not relayed the correct information to the builder.

In the end, the builder asked to work with me directly on frame #2, I signed off on manufacturing drawings which are not usually released to clients, and for the final build I got exactly what I had always wanted.

I should have been more clear at the beginning of this thread. I DO NOT blame the builder. They built what was communicated to them by the shop for #1 (which was wrong).

[NYCfixie]

So #1 is hypothetically the right geometry and ride characteristics but missing some hypothetical baubles? If it fits and those baubles don't matter to you on a "B bike" then why not. Since it's just hypothetical, the actual dollar amount or space taken up by it is a non-issue. In the event it's not hypothetical, and you can fit it into your life, I'd still say to go for it. Sometimes it's fun to have multiple bikes that are redundant on paper but not in practice. I vote yes!

I like the way you think in both hypothetical and real life. Well done sir!

[Kontact]

I don't see what you're going to do with two identical frames. I have a bunch of bikes, but many were dirt cheap. $2000 is not in the dirt range.

[batman1425]

I'd have to be pretty miserable on something with stock geometry to leave a $2K frame (probably ending up as a $4k+ build) hanging in a siblings garage to use half a dozen times times a year.

To be clear, I understand your position. I often find myself getting wrapped up in the "value" of a deal. It's 50% off something that is worth $4k retail and built for my special fit needs, I should snag it! Really though, a custom only has value for you (especially if your fit is as unique as you suggest). Given that you already have the same bike, the intrinsic value (to you) of a duplicate, goes down dramatically, IMO. If they offered you the frame for $1k or less, I might be swayed. However, $2k goes a long way toward a new custom frame with non-overlapping capabilities.

[weaponsgrade]

No, I'd skip and put the money towards something different.

[Kontact]

I have a hard time imagining a fit so out there that it can't be addressed with a high stack frame and an alternate set back seat post. Bikes only have 3 contact points.

[batman1425]

In the end, the builder asked to work with me directly on frame #2, I signed off on manufacturing drawings which are not usually released to clients, and for the final build I got exactly what I had always wanted.

I should have been more clear at the beginning of this thread. I DO NOT blame the builder. They built what was communicated to them by the shop for #1 (which was wrong).

Am I to understand this to mean that the shop ate the frame cost on this one and is now trying to unload it on you for a discount to recover some of their loss?

If that's the case, and the experience that you had with the shop is as you describe, and you have a $ threshold were you'd buy it, I'd haggle with them. If the geo is really that unique, they aren't going to want it hanging around and might let it go for a song/whatever you counter with.

I still don't see a need for 2 identical bikes beyond cyclocross - but there's a dollar figure for me where I'd buy it anyway. Just happens to be way less than 2K.

[beeatnik]

deja vu all over again

[NYCfixie]

Am I to understand this to mean that the shop ate the frame cost on this one and is now trying to unload it on you for a discount to recover some of their loss?

If that's the case, and the experience that you had with the shop is as you describe, and you have a $ threshold were you'd buy it, I'd haggle with them. If the geo is really that unique, they aren't going to want it hanging around and might let it go for a song/whatever you counter with.

I still don't see a need for 2 identical bikes - but there's a dollar figure for me where I'd buy it anyway. Just happens to be way less than 2K.

No to both and it is too convoluted to explain more. The frame is coming from the builder in a round-about way. The intermediary figured out it was built for me and thought I might want it. It is far from what people would consider stock sizing for a small frame. It would be the anti-slam-your-stem frame with a headtube that is unreasonably tall for the frame size (think road-endurance-plus tall headtube - it puts the Parlee tall headtube cover to shame).

I will never know who ate the cost but the builder stepped in and made it right.

[batman1425]

No to both and it is too convoluted to explain more. The frame is coming from the builder in a round-about way. The intermediary figured out it was built for me and thought I might want it. It is far from what people would consider a stock 53cm. It would be the anti-slam-your-stem frame with a headtube that is unreasonably tall for the frame size (think endurance plus tall headtube).

I will never know who ate the cost but the builder stepped in and made it right.

Who has possession of it now? Is it someone that wants it/will use it? Someone that is looking to turn it for a profit? What skin does the third party have in the game?

[Gummee]

I still don't see a need for 2 identical bikes beyond cyclocross - but there's a dollar figure for me where I'd buy it anyway. Just happens to be way less than 2K.
If you're racing, I could see 2 identical race bikes 'just in case.'

Otherwise? Do it because you want to maintain a relationship with the shop and not be 'that a--hat that stuck us with a custom bike.'

My $.02. Worth the price you paid for the advice

M

[batman1425]

If you're racing, I could see 2 identical race bikes 'just in case.'

Otherwise? Do it because you want to maintain a relationship with the shop and not be 'that a--hat that stuck us with a custom bike.'

My $.02. Worth the price you paid for the advice

M

I think "that a--hat that stuck us with a custom bike" only applies if they ordered what the buyer asked for. Obviously don't know all the details of this interaction, but if a shop ordered me the wrong geo for a custom frame after documenting, agreeing, etc. as the OP alludes to - that's on them. I'd call it the a--hat shop that screwed up my order with the builder that stepped in and made it right. Again, only based on what I've read here so far so reality may differ. I'm not inclined to continue patronizing a shop that botched a build like that.

[Blown Reek]

It sounds you're more in love with the deal than the actual bike and are trying to justify it.

[NYCfixie]

Who has possession of it now? Is it someone that wants it/will use it? Someone that is looking to turn it for a profit? What skin does the third party have in the game?

middleman. looking to make a profit. no skin in the game.


If you're racing, I could see 2 identical race bikes 'just in case.'

Otherwise? Do it because you want to maintain a relationship with the shop and not be 'that a--hat that stuck us with a custom bike.'

My $.02. Worth the price you paid for the advice

M

I think "that a--hat that stuck us with a custom bike" only applies if they ordered what the buyer asked for. Obviously don't know all the details of this interaction, but if a shop ordered me the wrong geo for a custom frame after documenting, agreeing, etc. as the OP alludes to - that's on them. I'd call it the a--hat shop that screwed up my order with the builder that stepped in and made it right. Again, only based on what I've read here so far so reality may differ. I'm not inclined to continue patronizing a shop that botched a build like that.

No relationship with the shop to worry about. As far as they and the builder are concerned (at least what they have said to my face) is they are happy I am on a bike that works for me.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last two Pre-custom bike setups:
Top - ETT was shorter and so was HT
Bottom - ETT was longer and HT was higher

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f11/82876d1435426901-lynskey-ti-wheels-jpg
https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f11/73019d1412880012-lynskey-ti-lynskey-r255-jpg

[joosttx]

Assuming you are talking about the initial frame build...

I was bounced between three different people at the bike shop during the interview/fit/follow up conversations.....

I find it hard to believe you were bounced between 3 different people. You like such an amiable guy to work with.... shame on them

[NYCfixie]

I would fine it hard to believe you were bounced between 3 different people. You like such an amiable guy to work with.... shame on them

Not knowing whether that is sarcasm or not, I'll add two responses:

1) Thank you.

or

2) You have never met me. If you actually knew me, you would know that I am one of the most patient and kind people who would do anything for family and friends (and most strangers too). Please do not confuse my initial needs/wants/requests for a new bike and desire to document what was agreed upon with a bike shop that has a poor process. Their lack of process led to many problems that could have been avoided.

And, to show you what a nice person I am, even after all the BS, I sent a thank you note with a gift to both the person who was the point of contact at the bike shop and the person at the builder who was my point of contact (see text below - from saved letter in my google drive)

*****
Dear Bike Shop Contact (and Builder point of contact),

I want to thank you for all of the time and effort you put into making my dream bike a reality.

I know it was a long process with a great deal of communication between builder and LBS to get all the details worked out but in the end I finally have exactly what I want. The frame fixes all of the issues I had with my non-custom bike most notably: more tire clearance, more neutral steering, room for large water bottles, and room for a full frame pump.

I am sure you receive bike related stuff all the time but I thought the two enclosed items might interest you. I use the chain lube (it was NifFrixShun of course) myself and think it is better than anything else I have tried in the past. The tool (fix-it-sticks T-Way wrench) is always handy and is very versatile because it is so easy to swap the bits. These are just a small token of my appreciation for all of your help.

Sincerely,
NYCfixie
*****



And this was the response I got from the builder point of contact via email (I never heard back from bike shop point of contact):

*****
NYCfixie,

As you promised, a package did arrive for me in the builder mail box this afternoon. I just finished opening it.

Thank you. I'm a sucker for NFS lube, and these Fix Its are going to be a much-needed upgrade to my home wrench life. I've never received such a thoughtful gift or note during my time at builder. It means a lot.

I'm really happy and relieved to hear that you finally have a great custom-bike, that is what it should be. The process had some significant unforeseen hurdles, and I can't thank you enough for being so patient while we worked to smooth out the wrinkles on numerous occasions.

I hope it treats you well, and I'm hope I'll see you out on the road soon.

Best,
Builder point of contact
*****

[beeatnik]

NYC, Houston's suggestions that you're a, um, difficult client may be informed by the two roundabout ("convoluted") threads where you hyper-analyzed every design element (for ordering your first custom?). I won't comment on the factors which lead to inefficiencies in the process, but I'm glad there are customers as detail-obsessed as yourself. Many organizations base their customer service protocols on outliers such as yourself; the rest of us benefit.

[NYCfixie]

NYC, Houston's suggestions that you're a, um, difficult client may be informed by the two roundabout ("convoluted") threads where you hyper-analyzed every design element (for ordering your first custom?). I won't comment on the factors which lead to inefficiencies in the process. But, I'm glad there are customers as detail-obsessed as yourself. Many organizations base their customer service protocols on outliers such as yourself; the rest of us benefit.

I hear you but those threads were analysis and decision making pre-contact at LBS. And isn't that the point of these forums? To discuss bike stuff with like-minded individuals? (and, each of my two threads was easily 50 pages shorter than anything Lionel ever posted)

Only after the threads were closed did I engage LBS when decisions were already made. So, poor process at LBS is a poor excuse for LBS not being able to document decisions and communicate to builder. And there is no excuse for not completing the LBS parts ordering and install correctly that was their direct responsibility.

When the customer shows up when the initial build is supposed to be done, how does LBS staff not double check against the original order LBS created which says "round bars"? There answer I got: oh we mixed up with a different build that is also in-house. we will take ergo bars off and can overnight order the correct bars and have them here tomorrow. If the other build is in-house it is fair to assume that my round bars should also have already been in-house so why the need to order new ones? Cover up a mistake?

Next day, why is there now the wrong stem on the bike and different bar tape? oh sorry, not sure what happened, we can re-tape but will you come back tomorrow since we are closing soon.

One more day: that is not the gel tape that was on the bars yesterday and was specified on the original order form you/LBS shop created. Them: Are you sure? Me: Yes, I am sure and I am not coming back again. Please fix it now.

This is only a small slice of what went wrong before I even got out the LBS door on the first ride.

Not trying to argue but this whole thing was a mess due to lack of process. It would be easy to blame me (not that you are) for being detailed oriented but that should help and not hinder a non-process environment.

I manage technology systems departments for a living. I specifically pay a great deal of attention to the "front of house" in-person desk-side technical support my teams provide. Customer contact points are very important because it is so difficult to gain trust and a good reputation but it can all be lost with 1 or 2 bad end user experiences. When I see others with poor process and customer service, I will call it out. If anything, I am more forgiving than most because I live both sides of the equation every day.

[beeatnik]

Fair enough.

Buy the bike. Seven is the best in the business.

[NYCfixie]

they (not admitting Seven was the builder:)) sure did right by me in the end and never blamed anyone else.

[AngryScientist]

-------------------------------------------------------
Last two Pre-custom bike setups:
Top - ETT was shorter and so was HT
Bottom - ETT was longer and HT was higher

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f11/82876d1435426901-lynskey-ti-wheels-jpg
https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f11/73019d1412880012-lynskey-ti-lynskey-r255-jpg

where is the picture of the #2 custom frame. curious as to where you wound up after seeing these two.

[one60]

Since you have a Ti bike which could likely last a long, long time why not save the cash for a future custom bike?

There a number of scenarios that lead to that suggestion. 1) now that you have a good fit and are riding more, its quite possible your fit and/or needs will change as your fitness improves and your enjoyment of cycling has increased. 2) Who knows what future bike or bike material may have you wishing for a new custom frame? For instance Wittson, Firefly, Seven and others are making cool Ti + Carbon frames.

You're already half way there by passing on the second copy.

[sitzmark]

I was thinking about couplers or leaving it "whole" and at my brothers house/garage in Colorado. With 3 siblings and my mother all now in the Denver area it would be nice to have a bike there for when I visit a few times a year. ...

If you travel to CO with any regular frequency, seems like an ideal application for frame #1. That is if $2-$3k is within your budget to "park" a bike for limited use. You say you need the geo for a pleasant riding experience, so I'd go for it.

Eventually you'll hit the frame price if you rent or check a bike each trip to CO. Always nice to have a familiar bike when traveling, but not have the added complexity of packing/checking, or renting something "foreign".

[pdmtong]

I would NOT buy #1.

Yes you "save" 50% but you are also incurring a second group and cockpit all for the measly gain of a third water bottle and not having to swap wheels (<10 minutes job).

#1 having no fenders is irrelevant, since for #2 you are either in fender mode or in knobby mode not both.

#1 has a third bottle...how often do you need a third bottle? if you are out that long get a frame pack a bar pack a camel bak for #2. Now you can pack a lunch too.

having #1 costs more, takes up space and is redundant. no gain going down that path.

[makoti]

You will never, ever like bike #1 (the original). It wasn't right for full price, you may deal with whatever was the issue for half price, but you'll never really like it.
Pass. Put the money elsewhere.

[happycampyer]

I had a similar situation happen—there was some miscommunication between the shop and the builder, and the frame that was built was shorter than originally spec’d. The shop and the builder worked it out, and the frame was replaced. These things can and do happen (even without a shop inbetween), but they’re rare with great shops and great builders. All I can say is, the great shops and/or builders sort these things out.

As far as what to do re the first frame, everyone’s situation is different. If space and/or money is a consideration, I would pass. Save the money and put it toward a disc brake all-road bike, etc., for something different (which I know is in the back of your mind). This advice is coming from someone who has several overlapping frames, including two ti Strada Biancas, two Legends (one travel) and two all-road disc bikes.

[pdmtong]

Since the chances of #1 being monetized by the intermediary are near zero, another tact is just tell them it would be very redundant but if the discount is greater you might be swayed.

you don't need that bike. when you go visit your mom and siblings, go visit your mom and siblings and leave the biking at home.

and, since you don't need that bike, wait until it gets cheaper to buy it. time is on your side...

[cadence90]

Just clarify with them that you will buy back bicycle #1 at 50% off of the original price only if they buy back bicycle #2 at 100% of the original price.


Concurring with members here who question the 50% off value, I remember an excellent quote someone made in reference to "xx% off sales" on relatively unnecessary goods:
"It's not 80% OFF...it's 20% ON!"

;)
.

[moobikes]

Dear NYCfixie

a bicycle is meant to bring us joy and take us places. If you have the cash and space, just get #1 and do whatever you want with it.
It's possible to think too much about these things.

[NYCfixie]

where is the picture of the #2 custom frame. curious as to where you wound up after seeing these two.

In order...

Lynskey Sportive: ETT was good. HT too short so 5cm spacers, too much toe overlap, steering was too slow (72 HTA 45mm Fork Rake)

Lynskey R255: ETT was also good. HT less short so 4cm spacers, they spec'ed 43mm rake fork with 71.5 HTA but I followed Signature Cycles advice and got a 50mm Enve 2.0 which was much better. Bike was nice but only fit 28mm tires. Gave frame/fork/headset to my sister-in-law in Colorado (we differ by only 1cm seat height, same setback from BB, and 0.5 difference in reach). She is much lighter so the frame performed better for her. The R255/265 was Lynskey's triple butted round tubeset so I was probably much too heavy for it.

Seven Axiom SL #2 - built for me. early pic shows stem flipped for -6 with 2cm spacers. Also have tried +6 with 1cm spacer. Have not cut steerer because I do not want to go back to shop for service and do not have relationship with anyone else local I trust. Working on the latter.


So, if you look at the last photo and know #1 looks the same, I am not so sure it is going to sell anytime soon. That frame was handed back almost two years ago yet it has never been offered for sale, at least not to me, until now.

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f11/82876d1435426901-lynskey-ti-wheels-jpg

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f11/73019d1412880012-lynskey-ti-lynskey-r255-jpg

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f2/98609d1481464564-our-buddy-boyd-has-been-busy-boyd-wheels-jpg

[beeatnik]

I had a similar situation happen—there was some miscommunication between the shop and the builder, and the frame that was built was shorter than originally spec’d. The shop and the builder worked it out, and the frame was replaced. These things can and do happen (even without a shop inbetween), but they’re rare with great shops and great builders. All I can say is, the great shops and/or builders sort these things out.



These situations seem to be more common when there's a shop involved. And there's generally a shop involved with novices or cats who need-hand holding. Too many cooks in the kitchen and all that.

Let me go look for that letter RS posted re: the last time he built a bike according to the explicit numbers requested by a client (late 70s?).

[joosttx]

These situations seem to be more common when there's a shop involved. And there's generally a shop involved with novices or cats who need-hand holding. Too many cooks in the kitchen and all that.

Let me go look for that letter RS posted re: the last time he built a bike according to the explicit numbers requested by a client (late 70s?).

Disagree, about the shop to builder thing. I have had four custom bikes executed through three shops. I never had a problem. In fact, it was my belief the shops made sure there were no errors. Worst complaint (which is not a complaint at all)was one bike was 2 weeks late from the quoted ETA. Now two of the shops were Above Category and Signature Cycles. Both which are considered premiere shops. So we maybe talking apple and oranges here, but I am a fan of the 2-step channel. The only custom bike that I did have a “bad” experience was when dealing with the builder directly. The bike turned out excellent but it was delivered a year late or so. So my experiences are quite different.

Right now I going direct to a builder, 44 Bikes, for my mountain bike. But I am confident everything will work out fine.

[happycampyer]

These situations seem to be more common when there's a shop involved. And there's generally a shop involved with novices or cats who need-hand holding. Too many cooks in the kitchen and all that.

Let me go look for that letter RS posted re: the last time he built a bike according to the explicit numbers requested by a client (late 70s?).
I have to agree with joosttx. I know people who have had issues with pretty much every major builder out there. People make mistakes, and framebuilders are people, after all. A good builder owns his/her/their mistakes, and makes things right. Of course, not all mistakes require a full re-build of a frame, but it happens more often than one might think.

P.S. These are also not novice customers—they are pretty much all long-time cyclists, and have multiple custom frames.

[beeatnik]

And I know 3 guys who have gone through the top shops in SoCal and all had issues or needed new bikes built. A small sample, sure, but even a .5% return rate should be too high. IMHO.

But as Houston and Campy-er pointed out, if you've had 50 plus customs commissioned, you should be ok (or not).

edit: just re-read their posts

[happycampyer]

And I know 3 guys who have gone through the top shops in SoCal and all had issues or needed new bikes built. A small sample, sure, but even a .5% return rate should be too high. IMHO.

But as Houston and Campy-er pointed out, if you've had 50 plus customs commissioned, you should be ok (or not).

edit: just re-read their postsEither that, or you’ve gotten a lot of frames half off. :)

[znfdl]

Would you like a bike with S&S couplers, might be a cheap way to go......

Can it be done?

[NYCfixie]

Would you like a bike with S&S couplers, might be a cheap way to go......

Can it be done?

I have heard that bilenky prefers cutting up straight guage rather than butted tubes so not sure.

[NYCfixie]

What has kept me from pulling the trigger:
- 2k is not that much money for the frame (50% off) when you consider the overall cost of customs but 2k is also about 50% of a new and different Ti custom (glass half empty or half full kind of thing) as has been suggested here several times
- The market is clear by putting its emphasis on disc brake bikes for larger tires and endurance road bikes with short reach calipers that can fit 28mm tires so do I really need another mid-reach brake bike?
- The #1 frame did have surgery and will that matter regarding the long term durability but even after surgery it is a perfect match for my body measurments
- It is still a mid-reach brake frame without fender mounts but with a third bottle mount
- The seattube water bottle mount - after surgery - is in the wrong place (too high) only allowing small water bottles with a full frame pump (frame has pump peg) which is a problem because I never have enough water on longer rides and why I use really large bottles
- It seems no matter what you do, using the third water bottle mount always means you end up with dirt or whatever other nastiness was on the road on your bottle and ultimately in your mouth. Considering I live in and ride around an urban area that just seems gross


....but, it is only 2k for a frame/fork that was built for me.

[joosttx]

And I know 3 guys who have gone through the top shops in SoCal and all had issues or needed new bikes built. A small sample, sure, but even a .5% return rate should be too high. IMHO.

But as Houston and Campy-er pointed out, if you've had 50 plus customs commissioned, you should be ok (or not).

edit: just re-read their posts

Also there is a right way and a wrong way of working with a shop or builder. Perhaps that was the deal with your friends Socal experiences. Who knows.... This is why I am critical of the OP. Judging from his posts across the hall and here I am not sure he engages a relativitely complex purchase very well.

[AngryScientist]

i say this only as a productive post and food for thought:

after looking at the finished product, bike #2 - NO, i would not buy basically a carbon copy of it at 50% discount.

you already have a good titanium bike that can last a lifetime. when i look at that bike, it appears to me that it is more likely that your fit requirements will evolve over time and you will eventually desire a bike with different geometry. i think you would be more open to a new fit if you only have one expensive bike to leave behind.

a serious question: how confident are you that you have your ideal cycling fit nailed?

[NYCfixie]

Also there is a right way and a wrong way of working with a shop or builder. Perhaps that was the deal with your friends Socal experiences. Who knows.... This is why I am critical of the OP. Judging from his posts across the hall and here I am not sure he engages a relativitely complex purchase very well.

You are making the assumption that your way is the right way to work with a shop and/or builder. And you are projecting that sense of what is right and wrong on others dealings with shops and builders. There are many different kinds of shops and builders because there are many different types of buyers.

I am going to assume that this is not meant as a personal attack but you are being critical. I find that very interesting because you are using an open-ended conversation thread prior to engaging a LBS and builder as a means for your position. I think it is flawed logic.

Read through my post with a truly open mind and you will realize why I chose Seven for my first custom but in hindsight may not have chosen the correct LBS for this build.

My background is in technology project management, systems analysis, systems design, and systems implementation all with a focus on end user needs (when I write systems I mean it in a very broad sense as I am not a programmer). Needless to say, there is a need for a great deal of documentation in my line of work.


In the bike ordering case this is what happened from a systems development point of view:
- Bike forum threads (requirements gathering through interviews)
- Figuring out what I wanted and documenting it (systems analysis)
- Sharing my wishes with the LBS (communication for me and and systems analysis, requirements documentation, and project management for them)
- The LBS sharing my requests with the builder (project management and communication - did not happen in enough detail due to poor process)
- The builder using the systems requirements to create a design (systems design)
- The LBS sharing design with customer (did not happen in enough detail due to poor project management process and communication)
- The Builder creates the frame (implementation - came out wrong because requirements were not communicated correctly by LBS)
- The LBS gets the parts build wrong in several ways by not adhering to original design documents (implementation - came out wrong due to poor process and not following their own order sheets)
- The builder asks to work directly with customer to update design requirements (in a systems development project as in this case, if the original requirements were wrong or not communicated correctly, mistakes are much more expensive to fix late in the process which in this case necessitated a re-build)
- Build documents are updated and approved by all parties (updated design requirements and documentation, better communication)
- Build #2 created successfully (Implementation round #2 was successful because the builder had the correct requirements when they went directly to the customer)

If you look at this from a systems development perspective, the issue was not with the original requirements gathering process (threads on a bike forum - interviews) by me which is supposed to be an open and fluid process as you gather information, but rather farther into the project cycle due to poor documentation and communication. The LBS (systems analyst) had a list of requirements but they did not communicate them correctly to Builder (systems designer and builder) so the end product (implementation) did not meet the original requirements request. As the system owner, it was my responsibility to communicate my needs (which I did via in-person interviews and follow up emails) but it was the LBS' (systems analyst) job to make sure those requirements (and their suggestions) were synthesized and communicated to the builder including the parts requirements which was their direct responsibility.

Why should I be blamed for a breakdown that was caused by the LBS due to poor process? I get that even high-end bike shop employees may not be trained in systems development process but a little process and better communication goes a very long way to avoiding problems down the road which cost much more to fix later in the development cycle.

As long as we know that the builder was Seven, how many of you know that The Seven Process Methodology (https://www.sevencycles.com/buildingbike/manufacturing.php) is based on the very well known and copied Toyota Production System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System)?

If I as the requester am a process oriented person, and the builder uses a process model they developed and have refined over 20 years but the LBS in the middle is not process driven environment, where is the breakdown likely to occur?

[NYCfixie]

i say this only as a productive post and food for thought:

after looking at the finished product, bike #2 - NO, i would not buy basically a carbon copy of it at 50% discount.

you already have a good titanium bike that can last a lifetime. when i look at that bike, it appears to me that it is more likely that your fit requirements will evolve over time and you will eventually desire a bike with different geometry. i think you would be more open to a new fit if you only have one expensive bike to leave behind.

a serious question: how confident are you that you have your ideal cycling fit nailed?

While I am not in perfect shape, I am not fat either. I am post 40, post knee surgery, less flexible than I was in my 20s and have a unique morphology that makes me a unique fit. Meaning, dropping 10-15 pounds is not going to drastically change my fit. If anything, Seven made the bike knowing I will be even less flexible in future years. I am a life long cyclist.

I also have the advantage of being fit by High Gear Cycle in NJ and fit a few years later by Signature Cycles when they still had a NYC location (my fitter at Signature used to work at High Gear and both people are well known top fitters). They both got me to basically the same place on production bikes. When I started this process in Boston, Seven stated that there was not much to change about my fit. It was about making a small change to the way I sit on a bike, including all the details I wanted but could not get at once from a production bike, and building the bike for me and my needs. Needless to say, the devil was in the details. And the final product, #2, is perfect.

I am sorry that this thread has gone on a tangent about the process but I hope the information is helpful to others who may, or have already and will again in the future, go the custom route.