Compass Parts vs. MUSA

[559Rando]

I'm planning to do a full rando conversion on an old Raleigh International. I've had a few 650B road rando-y bikes over the years include an OG Kogswell P/R, and a Rawland rSogn. The Raleigh is a bike I already own and have converted to 650B with cantilever brakes and it fits and feels great. The bike will get some more framework, including curved fender bridges, Schmidt SL wiring, custom racks and some brazeons.

As I comtemplate the build and look at grand masters USA rando framebuilders like Weigle, Winters, Chapman, MAP, Bantam, Coast, et. al., I am usually surprised by their choice of WI and Paul over the Compass offerings. MAP, I know, is close to Paul and has (still does?) work over there, so I guess I get that, but help me with this:

Rene Herse crank vs. White Industries...both are low Q, available with all kinds of gear (especially the compact gearing many of us prefer), both have some, shall I say, beauty marks. Namely, the Compass 3-arm chainrings are an acquired taste. And the WI isn't as svelt and, correct me if I'm wrong, is only available with black chainrings.

Centerpull brakes - Compass vs Mafac RAIDs vs Paul...Aesthetically, I just don't get the appeal of the Paul. That said, the Compass are $$$ and RAIDs can be had for ~$100 and refurbished into something as good as the Compass. I think I've decided to not go with centerpull brakes.

Cantilever brakes - Compass vs. Paul vs. everything else...The Compass brakes are the lightest ever. The Pauls are again visually not as refined. But here I'm leaning towards something else that's polished and takes modern cartridge pads. Perhaps the lowly CR-720.

Stems...I will go with the Grand Bois. I just dig them, man!

I don't mean to incite any flaming here, but am legitimately interested in what y'all are thinking. Like I said I'm planning my build.

[AngryScientist]

i have tried a lot of canti brakes over the years now and concluded that Paul canti's are the best available. i havent tried the compass brakes, but i highly doubt they will be any better at actually braking.

crank - to me, the compass crank is EXACTLY what i dislike about most of the compass parts - they are all built to look like reenactment parts. the WI cranks are their own design, not a copy of some ancient part. i get what compass is trying to do, but it's not in line with what they do with their tires.

compass tires are class leading, excellent, innovative design and construction, that's why they sell so well and are so highly regarded.

their parts are the opposite. not innovative IMO at all. maybe some modern alloys or engineering, but the looks scream "i'm a new, insanely expensive crankset designed to look like a 60's part". just not my thing.

i appreciate that WI is doing a good crankset, with multiple gearing options on their own terms, not a copy of something great from the past.

with regard to stems and posts - nitto all the way.

i've thought about this stuff before, just my opinion on the matter.

[muz]

Centerpull brakes - Compass vs Mafac RAIDs vs Paul...Aesthetically, I just don't get the appeal of the Paul. That said, the Compass are $$$ and RAIDs can be had for ~$100 and refurbished into something as good as the Compass.

I hate the look of Paul Racer Mediums, but Paul Racer brakes look great (especially polished silver) and function even better. I have Mafac and Paul on different bikes, both braze-on. Paul wins hands down, no squeal, good modulation, easy to adjust pad angle.

[unterhausen]

I hate the look of Paul Racer Mediums, but Paul Racer brakes look great (especially polished silver) and function even better. I have Mafac and Paul on different bikes, both braze-on. Paul wins hands down, no squeal, good modulation, easy to adjust pad angle.This is my opinion exactly. I am building a bike now that would probably work well with a set of Racer M's, but there is no way I'm putting such an ugly brake on this bike. Trying to decide between MAFAC Racers and something else. I have a set of Raids, Racers, competition, the Paul's, and could buy something else. But i'll probably go with the Paul Racers.

[559Rando]

This is great feedback on the Paul Racers. I hadn't heard people poo-poo the look of the Mediums, but I see it now that you say that. I still think the regular Racers are too chunky looking, though, but the polished finished helps tremendously!

[559Rando]

i have tried a lot of canti brakes over the years now and concluded that Paul canti's are the best available. i havent tried the compass brakes, but i highly doubt they will be any better at actually braking.

crank - to me, the compass crank is EXACTLY what i dislike about most of the compass parts - they are all built to look like reenactment parts. the WI cranks are their own design, not a copy of some ancient part. i get what compass is trying to do, but it's not in line with what they do with their tires.

compass tires are class leading, excellent, innovative design and construction, that's why they sell so well and are so highly regarded.

their parts are the opposite. not innovative IMO at all. maybe some modern alloys or engineering, but the looks scream "i'm a new, insanely expensive crankset designed to look like a 60's part". just not my thing.

i appreciate that WI is doing a good crankset, with multiple gearing options on their own terms, not a copy of something great from the past.

with regard to stems and posts - nitto all the way.

i've thought about this stuff before, just my opinion on the matter.

Thanks, AS!

Your note on Paul canti brakes is interesting. I'll do more canti research before I finally pull the trigger.

I think we agree about the Herse cranks, although, you gotta admit they're LIGHT!

The WI crank doesn't do it for me, but maybe if it came in all polished, I'd change my tune. For cranks, I'll leaning towards a 50.4BCD or an old XTR M900 I've been hanging onto on my build.

The Compass tires are great, but I'm totally happy with Grand Bois Hetres. They last forever and I still have some on hand.

Stems and post...I agree that Nitto is the business, and the Grand Bois stem is made by Nitto, but prettier than the Peal, Technomic, etc. and it's highly polished.

[El Chaba]

I am prejudiced; I don't like cantilevers. They stick out in an awkward way and are incredibly fiddly to set up. they are powerful, though. For a bike needing a little clearance for somewhat wider tires and fenders, centerpulls are the answer. They provide good power/mechanical advantage and are pretty easy to set up and maintain. If braze-on mounts are a possibility, then it improves the proposition of centerpulls even further. A set of Mafacs-which model depends on the reach/width needed-is ideal. NOS sets of Mafacs are getting pricier, but they are still quite reasonable compared to Pauls or Compass. A set of Mafacs in good shape updated with Koolstop pads is as good or better for the application than any modern brakes. It's subjective, but I find the Pauls to be ugly. If your Mafac's squeal, you need to adjust the toe-in properly or get new pads. There is no reason for them to squeal. Just as a note, Mafac centerpulls work great with Campy ergopower levers....the mechanical advantage/pull ratio matches up nicely.

[choke]

I really love the way my Racer Ms work but yeah, they could look a little less 'industrial'. But I also don't feel they're as bad as some people apparently do...I think that they look better mounted than they do by themselves.

I would 100% go with centerpulls again....I do like cantis but I think that centerpulls have better modulation. I'm contemplating another custom and when/if I commit it will definitely have the CPs. Speaking of which, please point me in the direction of these $100 Mafac Raids. :)

[El Chaba]

Just a philosophical note.....Lots of really smart people involved in rando style bikes end up on the "re-enactment" side of the fence. There are good reasons. The main one is that the original builders of that style of bike were among the best craftsmen that have ever been in the industry..Rene Herse...Ernest Csuka...Jean Desbois...They came up with very elegant and effective solutions to perplexing problems for a bike. Whether it is an effective set of brakes to accommodate 30 mm tires and a fender, carrying a jacket, arm warmers, food, etc in an easily accessible place that has a minimal effect on handling, etc...It's a testament to their ability and ingenuity that not only haven't their solutions been surpassed, but many modern solutions to the same problems fall WAY short of the efforts made 40-50 years ago. This is not to say that there are no good modern solutions. I am certain that Rene Herse would be all over Ergopower or STI levers and 10-11 cogs in the rear...and modern lighting is so far superior to the old that any comparison is just silly....

[El Chaba]

I would 100% go with centerpulls again....I do like cantis but I think that centerpulls have better modulation. I'm contemplating another custom and when/if I commit it will definitely have the CPs. Speaking of which, please point me in the direction of these $100 Mafac Raids. :)

Yeah, the Raids have pretty much been gobbled up. It's a great testament to a product that hasn't been made in 35 years. Sometimes you can find a decent set of Raids but with a few pieces of imperfect hardware. Of course, the Compass hardware is interchangeable and available (Thank you, Jan Heine!) or sometimes it's economical to find a sacrificial set of (Mafac) Racers. This gives you an excuse to go the full constructeur route on the brakes. I've done a few sets over the years. You can disassemble the brakes and work the sharper edges of the Mafac forgings smooth with a file/wet dry paper. After everything is nice, rounded, radiused polish them up to a mirror finish. It's worth the effort.

[donevwil]

Brakes are important to me. 240 pounds and everything I ride is up, down and steep.

I bought an old Mondia that came with Mafac Racers (center bolt). Braking was abysmal so I swapped on some Yokozuna Matthauser pad clones, new cables and fine tuned the set-up, brake function was transformed. Even at my size I would not hesitate building a bike around post mount Mafacs or Compass brakes.

I have Racer M's on my primary bike and they function wonderfully, better than other Mafacs I've tried post mount or not. In terms of power and modulation I'd put them in the same ballpark as a top tier set of dual pivot road calipers. They are noticeably better than the two mid reach calipers I tried (V-O and Shimano). I will agree that for an aesthetic based build the Compass/Mafacs win hands down.

As far as cantilevers, I'm a fan. Too many bad cantis out there and the inherent complication in set-up have ruined it for the few good designs. IMO Paul cantis are simply meh. Suntour XC-Pro are the best I've tried hands down, add Power Hangers and they become the best rim brakes I've ever used. I doubt they work for you aesthetically, but I always have to stand up for cantis.

In honesty, if the brake design is sound (i.e. not arbitrarily lightened, or cost cut) pad choice is the true game changer. I've hated every brake I've used that came with Kool Stop Thinlines (Paul). Terrible pad design for my needs. Swap the pads and the brakes entered the real world.

[Frankwurst]

I'm with AS on this one. Paul cantis are easy to set up look decent and work. Nitto stems are pretty much what all my threaded headsets hold. Cranksets I like the looks of the Compass' but the cost makes me shy away. I wouldn't be beyond a set if I found them used but I have a couple sets of TA Zephrys that I'm rather fond of as well. I also have a set of WI's that I like. I personally wouldn't look any further than Compass tires. I like them that well. Front rack I'd do Nitto as well as seatpost. But all this is just what I like. The bottom line is it's your bike. The only thing that is really necessary is that you like it and post a picture here when it's done. Sounds like a great project. Good luck with it.:beer:

[bicycletricycle]

paul centerpulls are far better than mafac or compass. Mostly because of the posts and bearings but also because the new threaded post pads are much easier to deal with although this is less of a deal if you know how to adjust smooth post brakes.. The paul set up uses taller cantilever posts and the arms have separate precisely machined bearings that the arms rotate on. This makes for a much more controlled fitment and much less wobble in the arm, that wobble can let the pads go into the tires on narrow brake track rims and cause chatter or squeeking down the line. Go up to just about any bike with direct mount mafacs and wobble the arms around, they almost always have a huge amount of play, sometimes this is hard to feel because the way the spring mount, just lock the front brakes and rock the bike back and forth and you can see the wobble. It is really hard to fix this. The height of the bearings in mafac brakes is just super short, I machined a set of custom bearings for my Pereira to minimize this as much as possible and they are still a lot worse than the pauls I have on other bikes.

that being said, paul racers barely work with 650bx42 tires and fenders.

Paul canti brakes benefit from the same precision bearing and also have adjustable spring tension. The compass cantilevers have really aggressive springs and no way to easily adjust them, at least they do still use the taller canti posts so they have less play now and shouldn't wear as fast.

I do like the look of the compass cantilever brakes a lot though.

On a 650b x 42 or larger bike I would go cantilever. My 650b chapman has paul neo retros on campy 10 levers and they have plenty of braking power IMHO, they do have less power than center pulls or v brakes or dual pivot brakes though. I bet well set up compass brakes would have more power but the wobbliness would just drive me nuts, every time i braked I would look down at the fron brake pads pulling forward 1/4 inch and be pissed off, perhaps that makes me a weirdo. Many people seem to think that any bike with less braking power than whatever is the maximum currently available is unrideable, if you are one of these people go with V brakes or disc brakes on a 650b x 42 bike IMHO.


As far as cranks go, the rene herse cranks are superior to the WI units. They are forged (WI are just machined from billet) and have many chainring options in just about any ratios desired.

that is my 2 cents.

[sparky33]

Compass components are generally excellent in my experience. My preferences generally takes me toward mainstream carbon stuff, but I've used the Compass stuff and think it is worth the price.

The Compass/RH crankset resolves all the issues I had with the TA Pro 5 Vis...it's not noodly, has high-quality hardware, doesn't need an obscure crank remover threading, available at retail price, and some combos even have ramped rings.
The Compass stem is a work of art, and it's not a noodle.
Compass racks are thoughtfully designed. Only JPW makes a nicer rack.
Compass tires are incredible, and we all know this.
Compass handlebars are great if your hands agree with the shape.

Haven't tried the Compass cantis and am skeptical of the geometry. I like Revox because they work well, more so for me than Paul, etc.

[andrewsuzuki]

Paul Racer Mediums (on posts) are probably the best rim brake I've tried. Modulation is really good and they felt all-around better than modern Shimano dual pivots, both with kool stop salmon pads.

I'm not totally sure why though -- a centerpull/u-brake is still a cantilever. Perhaps the mechanical advantage doesn't decrease as rapidly as traditional cantis.

[dogrange]

Ive wondered his same thing a few times, but I think the Compass stuff is well thought out and not needlessly retro.

The cranks and brakes are forged rather than cnc parts like the Paul stuff and consequently looks much more refined and the cranks are much lighter than the cnc WI. I had a rando bike built a few years ago with what I thought were smart updates to shimano disc hydro stuff and if I could do it again, I would just go all Compass with the compass centerpulls. With experience it turns out that the disc hydro stuff adds a ton of weight and unwanted stiffness to my frame/fork and the function is not all that. As I have ridden this stuff more, I can see that the old French stuff was really well thought out and battle tested.


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[AngryScientist]

not needlessly retro.



it is a small detail, and a nitpick for sure, but one thing that bothers me is the use of hex bolts for mounting.

when i'm on the road, i carry a multitool with 4/5/6 allen keys. i'm not carrying wrenches with me, period. their use of regular bolts as opposed to choosing metric allen stuff is an example of, IMO, needlessly retro.

https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/RHCanti_Includes_washers.jpg

[dogrange]

it is a small detail, and a nitpick for sure, but one thing that bothers me is the use of hex bolts for mounting.



when i'm on the road, i carry a multitool with 4/5/6 allen keys. i'm not carrying wrenches with me, period. their use of regular bolts as opposed to choosing metric allen stuff is an example of, IMO, needlessly retro.



https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/RHCanti_Includes_washers.jpg



Supposedly the hex head bolt are there to ease rack attachment on the same studs as the brakes. Nitpicking aside, the BASIC DESIGN of much of their stuff is well thought out, even if we want to nitpick little details like this, and even here, there is a method to the madness.


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[Tall]

when i'm on the road, i carry a multitool with 4/5/6 allen keys. i'm not carrying wrenches with me, period. their use of regular bolts as opposed to choosing metric allen stuff is an example of, IMO, needlessly retro.

I think the argument is (marginal) weight savings. Regarding tools: You can carry one of these:
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yakodo.de%2Fmedia%2Fimage%2Fp roduct%2F1112983%2Flg%2Fknipex-zangenschluessel-180-mm-86-03-180.jpg&f=1
But yeah, I remember the panicked message from a friend who just got his custom with the Compass centerpulls and tried to find a set of the right wrenches to take on a tour.

[El Chaba]

it is a small detail, and a nitpick for sure, but one thing that bothers me is the use of hex bolts for mounting.

when i'm on the road, i carry a multitool with 4/5/6 allen keys. i'm not carrying wrenches with me, period. their use of regular bolts as opposed to choosing metric allen stuff is an example of, IMO, needlessly retro.



For re-enactment brakes, you need a re-enactment toolkit....The pouch will accommodate the addition of 4,5,6 mm allen wrenches...... What's in your wallet?

[AngryScientist]

Nitpicking aside, the BASIC DESIGN of much of their stuff is well thought out,

i agree, and i absolutely support what they are doing - especially with regard to the tires they have developed.

[dogrange]

i agree, and i absolutely support what they are doing - especially with regard to the tires they have developed.



Totally love the tires. Haven’t used most of the other stuff, but would love to do up another rando bike, rim brake this time, to try it all out for myself!


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[choke]

But yeah, I remember the panicked message from a friend who just got his custom with the Compass centerpulls and tried to find a set of the right wrenches to take on a tour.This might not be retro enough but it's what I carry on a ride....

http://cycle.ciocctoo.com/ctool.jpg

[Jan Heine]

I think the biggest advantage of our Compass centerpulls is their profile: Shaped to fit over a 44 mm tire with fender. And when you release the straddle cable, they open wide enough to let the tire through without deflating.

The main reason we at Compass can do this is because our arms are forged (and hence smaller, lighter and stronger). Also, they were designed from the outset as centerpulls. When Paul designed his centerpulls (I was involved in the desig, this was long before Compass existed), there was no market. Instead of starting from scratch, Paul adapted his cantilever design, which has very large pivots, because it doesn't matter for cantis (the pivots sit further outward and don't get in the way of the tire), and because back in the day, cheap mountain bikes often had ovalized bosses from overheating. Back when Paul first designed his brakes, he just slipped his own, larger, and more precise boss over the crummy ones that were already on the frame. With modern custom bikes, ovalized posts aren't an issue any longer, but once you have a design that is perceived as superior, you stick with it...

The American cottage industry companies are the last of the mountain bike pioneers, and that is a very cool story, backed with some really good marketing. As Paul himself told me: "It used to be that everybody with a CNC-mill was making purple parts. Now we are the only ones left." I agree that is pretty cool - having worked with Joe Breeze and many of the other pioneers back in the day, I have a soft spot for Repack, Crested Butte and all those stories. And some parts, like hubs and headsets, are CNC-machined anyhow, so you don't need huge machinery to compete with the best.

When compared to the mountain bike pioneers, Paris-Brest-Paris, the Concours de Machines - all that took place on another continent, and the protagonists, while equally cool, aren't as accessible. Few people have had a beer with Roger Baumann, the guy who first won PBP and rode the Raid Pyreneen... I did, and he told me how he got goosebumps when he crested the Tourmalet at midnight. Having been there (at 2 a.m.), I can relate to that, too.

I smile when I hear that our parts are perceived as old-fashioned, when they are just functional. I remember when the Trek Y-Foil was the 'frame of the future,' but these days, even the latest offering from Open and other cutting-edge brands use 'old-fashioned' diamond frames. I smile, too, when I hear that tan sidewall tires are innovative. (They are, but that is another story.)

At Compass, we pride ourselves of being ahead of the industry.

Since we introduced the small-BCD, 3-arm René Herse cranks, the industry has already followed suit, going from 5 to 4 arms, and abandoning huge BCDs. Modern Shimano cranks are all 'compact,' and if you want a 53-42, you just put the bigger rings on the same arms. It makes sense. If you follow that to its logical conclusion, you end up with three arms and a tiny BCD.

But the industry has to go in steps, otherwise, their new parts are too far out for the majority of customers. When 9-speed came out, we in the industry all knew that 10-speed was next. But imagine the engineers saying, "Let's skip 9-speed and do 10-speed right away!" The marketing guys would have said: "Let's do 9 first. Easier to sell, and then we already have the next 'innovation' planned out."

The same applies to brakes. When dual pivots came out, they put one pivot on the side, because the old sidepulls, which pivoted around the centerbolt, flexed too much. Putting the other pivot on the outside, too, made sense, and they finally did that a decade later, and finally ended up with brakes that are centerpulls for all practical purposes. (What is important is where the arms pivot, not how you move those arms above the pivot, because the forces above the pivot are very small.)

Why doesn't Shimano use a straddle cable, when it's so much lighter and more elegant than the levers they use to actuate the arms?

Think of the OEM bike assemblers in Asia. Setting up a centerpull takes time and skill. A sidepull, you just insert the pre-cut cable, pull it tight and screw in the bolt. Done! (Remember how Shimano redesigned their canti straddle cables so that the setup was the same as a sidepull, for the same reason?)

At Compass, we are lucky that we don't have to worry about OEM, so we can make no-compromise parts that may take a little more to set up, but work much better in the long run.

:)And if you don't like the hex bolts on the brake pivots, you can get Allen-key ones in any bike shop. (We use the hex bolts, because they allow a forward extension onto which you can mount a rack more securely than if you sandwich rack and brake on the same bolt.):)

Sorry this was so long, but explaining the reasoning behind the decisions we make isn't a thing of five minutes. A lot of thought goes into even the smallest details. We obsess about them, because when you crest the Tourmalet at 2 a.m., the last thing you want to think about is your bike!

Cheers,
Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com (https://www.compasscycle.com)

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/tourmalet.jpg

[AngryScientist]

Thanks for the reply Jan, I appreciate your input here; and all you guys do at Conpass.

[merckx]

For re-enactment brakes, you need a re-enactment toolkit....The pouch will accommodate the addition of 4,5,6 mm allen wrenches...... What's in your wallet?

Like

[merckx]

Another "Like" for Jan Heine's post.

[Mark McM]

The same applies to brakes. When dual pivots came out, they put one pivot on the side, because the old sidepulls, which pivoted around the centerbolt, flexed too much. Putting the other pivot on the outside, too, made sense, and they finally did that a decade later, and finally ended up with brakes that are centerpulls for all practical purposes. (What is important is where the arms pivot, not how you move those arms above the pivot, because the forces above the pivot are very small.

Reducing the caliper arm length from rim to pad is certainly advantageous for increasing stiffness, but that is not the main design feature of dual pivot brakes. The purpose of using separate, offset pivots for each arm is it allowed the creation of a multi-element linkage between the caliper arms. This does two things: 1) it increases the mechanical advantage of the caliper; and 2) it guarantees the caliper arms move in unison. Due to the geometry of direct mount brakes, they have roughly double the mechanical advantage of centerpull brakes. And because the linked arms move in unison, a dual pivot brake may be set with small pad clearances (as required for high leverage brakes) without the possibility of uneven arm retraction allowing a pad to rub.

[muz]

I appreciate Jan's reply, but am not fully convinced. I have Paul's centerpulls (braze-on) on my commuter and they just work. I have Mafac's (again, on brazed on posts) on a vintage Jack Taylor and on a Toei.

I think the weakest point of the design is the smooth post brake pad holders. They are hard to adjust toe-in -- even with the latest Compass washers. And after a few hundred to few thousand miles (if you're lucky), they start squealing again. Back to the grinder to shape the pads, clean the brake track, maybe even cold-set the brake arms. And you need three hands to align the pads so they contact the rim just right. In contrast, the threaded holders with conical washers adjust in seconds -- loosen the bolt, squeeze the levers, tighten.

[charliedid]

Dogrange and Jan both mentioned this: (We use the hex bolts, because they allow a forward extension onto which you can mount a rack more securely than if you sandwich rack and brake on the same bolt.)

I'm feeling dumb, would someone explain this further?

Maybe with pictures, please :)

[charliedid]

Also, IME if you buy better than average it all works just fine if you set it up correctly. Sometimes it simply a matter of aesthetic or who you want to give your money to.

[muz]

Dogrange and Jan both mentioned this: (We use the hex bolts, because they allow a forward extension onto which you can mount a rack more securely than if you sandwich rack and brake on the same bolt.)

I'm feeling dumb, would someone explain this further?

Maybe with pictures, please :)

This is really a red herring, but here it goes. You can use an Allen head bolt, to be replaced by a hex double sided bolt if you need to mount a rack. This is sort of how Paul's brakes work, too.

https://velo-orange.com/products/canti-brake-rack-mounting-bolts

[bicycletricycle]

it is a small detail, and a nitpick for sure, but one thing that bothers me is the use of hex bolts for mounting.

when i'm on the road, i carry a multitool with 4/5/6 allen keys. i'm not carrying wrenches with me, period. their use of regular bolts as opposed to choosing metric allen stuff is an example of, IMO, needlessly retro.

https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/RHCanti_Includes_washers.jpg

just use any other M6 bolt

[charliedid]

This is really a red herring, but here it goes. You can use an Allen head bolt, to be replaced by a hex double sided bolt if you need to mount a rack. This is sort of how Paul's brakes work, too.

https://velo-orange.com/products/canti-brake-rack-mounting-bolts

Ah ha! Now I see.

Either way you need to buy double threaded bolts if you want to add a rack in this fashion.

Not sure if that is a feature or a benefit.

Weird

[Jan Heine]

Here is a photo of a Compass rack attached to a Compass brake and Kaisei fork blades (with a Compass crown). The whole system is designed to work together.

Jan Heine

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/mule_rack1.jpg

[charliedid]

Here is a photo of a Compass rack attached to a Compass brake and Kaisei fork blades (with a Compass crown). The whole system is designed to work together.

Jan Heine

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/mule_rack1.jpg

Thanks Jan,

Either way you replace the bolt to install the rack, so what the brake comes spec'd with is irrelevant if no rack is installed. Am I reading this correctly?

With Paul brakes the adjustment mechanism with a recessed bolt makes this impossible. So you just buy a rack that attaches mid blade and to the crown.

Staying true to the roots of the design, with a cohesive attachment. I get it.

[donevwil]

...With Paul brakes the adjustment mechanism with a recessed bolt makes this impossible....

Paul Rack Adapter (https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/rack-adapter/)

https://www.benscycle.com/assets/product_images/bens/large/paul-components-canti-stud-rack-adapters-4840.jpg

[Jan Heine]

Thanks Jan,

Either way you replace the bolt to install the rack, so what the brake comes spec'd with is irrelevant if no rack is installed. Am I reading this correctly?


When you buy Compass brakes, we offer a choice of bolts with or without rack-mounting extensions. Also, it makes sense to match front and rear bolts... For the rear, we figured the Allen bolts are so ubiquitous that most people have them lying around, so we ship with nice hex bolts that are impossible to find otherwise.

Thanks Jan,
So you just buy a rack that attaches mid blade and to the crown.


The attachment to the crown has to be a flat strap that goes under the brake arms, which prevents the brake from opening enough to let through an inflated 44 mm tire. Also, flat metal parts are heavier than tubes. (Our rack weighs just 168 g).

While all these parts work great on fenderless racing bikes, their design also makes it possible to build a bike with racks, fenders and lights that offers the same performance as a racing bike. To do that, you need to push the design and manufacture quite a bit further...

As to the serviceability, on a good bike, your brake bolts never should come loose. (The only one I ever had come loose was holding both brake and rack, and that one worked loose - hence my preference for the Herse-style bolts that prevent this.) So on the road, there is no need to carry a wrench to tighten the brake bolts.

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com (https://www.compasscycle.com)

[charliedid]

[QUOTE=donevwil;2306709]Paul Rack Adapter (https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/rack-adapter/)

Ah good point, I knew those existed.

[charliedid]

When you buy Compass brakes, we offer a choice of bolts with or without rack-mounting extensions. Also, it makes sense to match front and rear bolts... For the rear, we figured the Allen bolts are so ubiquitous that most people have them lying around, so we ship with nice hex bolts that are impossible to find otherwise.



The attachment to the crown has to be a flat strap that goes under the brake arms, which prevents the brake from opening enough to let through an inflated 44 mm tire. Also, flat metal parts are heavier than tubes. (Our rack weighs just 168 g).

While all these parts work great on fenderless racing bikes, their design also makes it possible to build a bike with racks, fenders and lights that offers the same performance as a racing bike. To do that, you need to push the design and manufacture quite a bit further...

As to the serviceability, on a good bike, your brake bolts never should come loose. (The only one I ever had come loose was holding both brake and rack, and that one worked loose - hence my preference for the Herse-style bolts that prevent this.) So on the road, there is no need to carry a wrench to tighten the brake bolts.

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com (https://www.compasscycle.com)

I follow.

Thanks

[Black Dog]

it is a small detail, and a nitpick for sure, but one thing that bothers me is the use of hex bolts for mounting.

when i'm on the road, i carry a multitool with 4/5/6 allen keys. i'm not carrying wrenches with me, period. their use of regular bolts as opposed to choosing metric allen stuff is an example of, IMO, needlessly retro.

https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/RHCanti_Includes_washers.jpg

Well there are some fasteners on a bike that will never need to be worked on on the road, these would fall under that category. I dab of thread lock and they are on like donkey kong. We can not carry all the tools to service every possible failure, just the most likely ones. The polished bolts look nicer than an allen bolt and considering the frequency that the bolts need to be turned it is a good choice.

[AngryScientist]

Well there are some fasteners on a bike that will never need to be worked on on the road, these would fall under that category. I dab of thread lock and they are on like donkey kong. We can not carry all the tools to service every possible failure, just the most likely ones. The polished bolts look nicer than an allen bolt and considering the frequency that the bolts need to be turned it is a good choice.

on the other hand - the acorn nut on the cable hanger: this is something i HAVE had to tweak on the road to adjust pad/rim clearance. there appears to be no other way on these brakes to adjust that. wouldnt want to be far from the shop and not be able to do that. just a counter point.

[palincss]

on the other hand - the acorn nut on the cable hanger: this is something i HAVE had to tweak on the road to adjust pad/rim clearance. there appears to be no other way on these brakes to adjust that. wouldnt want to be far from the shop and not be able to do that. just a counter point.

I can think of at least three: 1) undo the 10mm nut holding the pad post and push the pads in closer to the rim; 2) use the barrel adjuster on the cable hanger; 3) use an inline cable adjuster. But how often do you need to do that on the road?

[Jan Heine]

on the other hand - the acorn nut on the cable hanger: this is something i HAVE had to tweak on the road to adjust pad/rim clearance. there appears to be no other way on these brakes to adjust that. wouldnt want to be far from the shop and not be able to do that. just a counter point.

You shouldn't adjust the cable hanger. That one is designed to be installed once, and not touched again.

Compared to 'modern' threaded pads, where there is no way to adjust the pad/rim clearance as the pads wear (unless you add spacers), you actually have more options to adjust the pad/rim clearance, as Steve pointed out.

However, the geometry of the René Herse brakes makes this a rare occurrence. I am half-way through the (thick) pads on the set I put on my Urban Bike – winter in hilly, rainy Seattle is hard on brake pads – and no need to adjust the pads/cables/anything yet. (Added advantage of the bigger gap between pad and rim: They won't rub even if your wheel is a bit out of true.)

It's a different issue with low-profile cantis, where the mechanical advantage changes as the pads wear. With those, you need to get the pad clearance just right, otherwise, you risk bottoming out the brake lever against the bars. With the René Herse cantis, the mechanical advantage doesn't change much as the straddle cable angle changes, and yet they have more power than the Mafacs and their clones, because they are stiffer and a bit 'lower-profile.'

That said, we are looking into making a small wrench like those old Mafac tools that you can carry on the road - 8 and 10 mm. I'd love to make it in titanium to make it weigh less than 10 grams - much lighter than an Allen key. Of course, currently, you still have to carry multiple Allen and even Torx wrenches to deal with the mis-matched bolts on the various components on your bike. Perhaps some day there will be a complete Compass groupset that uses only those 2 wrench sizes for any bolt you need to adjust on the road, and a superlight wrench to go with it.:)

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com
Instagram: compasscycle

[Black Dog]

on the other hand - the acorn nut on the cable hanger: this is something i HAVE had to tweak on the road to adjust pad/rim clearance. there appears to be no other way on these brakes to adjust that. wouldnt want to be far from the shop and not be able to do that. just a counter point.

Yes, fair enough. I did not notice that. With road brake levers you would be SOL if you needed to open up the brakes for a out of true wheel but still needed some stopping ability.

[unterhausen]

Paul Rack Adapter (https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/rack-adapter/)
those things are the most expensive steel bolt you will ever buy. I asked my lbs to get me some and they were embarrassed to charge me full retail, which I thought was funny.

[Road Fan]

Two points:

1. For decades one of my working rules has been “don’t lose the screws or other small bits!”

2. One of the biggest issues in this discussion is, there aren’t many sources or offerings for quality MUSA (or let’s say sourced in the America’s, NSA) bike parts. I could go with a state of the art Thomson stem, but where is the complementary threaded stem adaptor? Just one example.

But for most parts, there are no well-engineered alternatives, despite the large numbers of well-trained engineers who love cycling.