just a reminder: the cheap stuff is really good these days...

[AngryScientist]

A lot of times on this forum, (and i'm guilty also) i think we get wrapped up in thinking that the serious cyclist "needs" top level gear.

had the opportunity to get a few days of riding in the hills last week and decided to rent a bike as opposed to bringing my S&S. Aluminum Specialized Allez kitted with Tiagra running gear, praxis crank, cheap oem spec. wheels and no-name brakeset.

the bike performed brilliantly. shifting was spot on, no sloppy chain skipping or anything. cheap-O brakes worked fine with no drama on some twisty technical 50mph descending and the wheels were heavy-ish, but competent.

since it's a rental bike i assume it sees a fair amount of use.

overall, i'm quite impressed with how GOOD this bike, which is likely the cheapest Spec. road bike you can buy. the fit for me was spot on too.

if this were my only road bike, life wouldnt be too bad.

anyway, just wanted to make a note that you dont need a bunch of high dollar equipment to enjoy some real fun on the road.

Also like to add - InCycle in SanDimas - excellent LBS.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-a43z5APOHao/Wmz8AnwLbFI/AAAAAAAAC9c/7ShsuuDIaDkiuLjT3AeP17JwySeEv7IWwCEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1900.JPG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-401o8H-z3T4/Wmz8AvennPI/AAAAAAAAC8U/pRyrXs95vdM2Rwc_gF6IVa07kyay-KYWQCEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1910.JPG

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-R-TjTZ1wjeo/Wmz8BbtlSVI/AAAAAAAAC8Y/NLVeT1F59bsSyG7eClmaCzoPE-fmTjNAACEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1913.JPG

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0jQrNcJZU7c/Wmz8CgkausI/AAAAAAAAC8s/pRJup37U23YT4E89437NJTC8-OjEeluLwCEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1939.JPG

[Cicli]

Cool. Looks like a nice ride.
I have an uncle in San Dimas.

[ChristianWong]

Well-maintained (or new, in this case) 'cheap' equipment will out-perform shoddy expensive stuff most days of the week.

I should take note as a few of my bikes are in need of some maintenance.

[charliedid]

I agree with your sentiment but I think that bike is a notch above the 'cheap stuff '

[AngryScientist]

I agree with your sentiment but I think that bike is a notch above the 'cheap stuff '

agreed charlie.

probably, the absolute low low end walmart quality is too low for serious riding, but i think most folks on this forum would consider a mix of oem brand house and tiagra kit pretty "cheap".

[fiamme red]

Aluminum Specialized Allez kitted with Tiagra running gear, praxis crank, cheap oem spec. wheels and no-name brakeset.So how much is the list price on this bike? I'd guess around $800 to $1,200?

Try riding a $200 bike from Target or a $100 bike from Walmart. Not really good.

[jtbadge]

How's the high school football, though?

[Clean39T]

agreed charlie.

probably, the absolute low low end walmart quality is too low for serious riding, but i think most folks on this forum would consider a mix of oem brand house and tiagra kit pretty "cheap".

Yes, yes I would..

The other consideration though is that the lower end components simply don't perform as well over time or last as long as the upper-end stuff...specifically when it comes to the intricate parts like shifters/derailleurs/brakes and hubs/BBs. And I think that is why it is worth it to pay up for the good stuff in those areas if you're going to put serious miles in...and if you need to save some scratch, do it in the cassette and chain. Honestly though, not that much room to save there either...

And with the second-hand market being as good as it is, why save $100 to buy a lower-end model frameset that's going to depreciate twice as fast (assuming initial depreciation has already occurred) as the top end model?

I guess what I'm saying is...if I only had $1K to spend on a bike...or $500...I'd spend it on a used/vintage ride with upper-end parts any day over a new bike off the showroom floor.

I'll stop preaching to the choir now.

[rnhood]

I agree with your sentiment but I think that bike is a notch above the 'cheap stuff '

Agree, even a cheap Specialized is knocking on the door of the top tier. And I'd rather be riding Tiagra than most anything Sram or Campagnolo make.

[bigbill]

I compare and contrast quite a bit. My cross bike has 7400 series 8 speed Dura Ace and my gravel bike has new Ultegra 11. I thought the Dura Ace was good............

My road bikes are campy, other than the shape, the shifting has been good since the late 90's.

[DreaminJohn]

As a lifelong cost/benefit advocate I concur with your contention.

As an aside, that might be the most serious Road Closed gauntlet(?) I've ever seen.

[54ny77]

I thought the same thing. WTH is that? :eek: :confused:


As an aside, that might be the most serious Road Closed gauntlet(?) I've ever seen.

[chiasticon]

how's the high school football, though?rules!

[Clean39T]

Also, those pics are making me want to live in LA...is there anything better than a deserted one lane road headed into the mountains?

[AngryScientist]

is there anything better than a deserted one lane road headed into the mountains?

yes.

when that one lane road is definitely closed to cars - as in the picture. there was zero concern as i was riding that i was going to get buzzed by a sport bike or jackass in a tesla tearing up the road. glorious.

[Clean39T]

yes.



when that one lane road is definitely closed to cars - as in the picture. there was zero concern as i was riding that i was going to get buzzed by a sport bike or jackass in a tesla tearing up the road. glorious.


We have one road like that outside Portland - it is a treat for the few weeks it’s rideable before the cars are released.

[Bantamben]

Was that GMR? it’s a great ride up to baldy , it’s been s couple years since I climbed it always a nice ride.

[AngryScientist]

Was that GMR? it’s a great ride up to baldy , it’s been s couple years since I climbed it always a nice ride.

yes.

all the way to the ski lifts...

tough one for me in january, for sure.

[Kontact]

In the '90s a $1200 bike was a pro-level racer. Now it is entry level. That isn't because of inflation, but because we've come to believe that a $3000 bike is perfectly average and a $7000 bike is money well spent.

But $1200 is still a huge investment in a single sporting goods item - we've just normalized the luxury expenditures we make in cycling to the point that we talk about lower end Rolex pricing as if it is the only way of telling the time.


A $1200 bike should feel awesome as it really isn't doing anything so significantly different than what a Nashbar aluminum bike with Microshift 8 speed and Tektro parts would do for $500. We've just lost sight of how much our sport has become the poster child for diminishing returns. In the last 25 years "pro level" bike pricing has increased nearly 10 times. What other common sports, leisure or travel item has skyrocketed that much? Supercars?

[jb_11]

how's the high school football, though?

:)

[GregL]

In the '90s a $1200 bike was a pro-level racer. Now it is entry level. That isn't because of inflation, but because we've come to believe that a $3000 bike is perfectly average and a $7000 bike is money well spent.

But $1200 is still a huge investment in a single sporting goods item - we've just normalized the luxury expenditures we make in cycling to the point that we talk about lower end Rolex pricing as if it is the only way of telling the time.


A $1200 bike should feel awesome as it really isn't doing anything so significantly different than what a Nashbar aluminum bike with Microshift 8 speed and Tektro parts would do for $500. We've just lost sight of how much our sport has become the poster child for diminishing returns. In the last 25 years "pro level" bike pricing has increased nearly 10 times. What other common sports, leisure or travel item has skyrocketed that much? Supercars?
1993 Cannondale R900 with Ultegra: $1,560 (https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/SearchListingDetail.aspx?id=40880&make=672&model=40920&year=1993&priceMax=20000)
2018 Cannondale CAAD12 Ultegra: $2,100 (http://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Bike/ProductDetail?Id=fec95de0-450b-47ba-8afa-ce486b33ec3a&parentid=undefined)
Increase in price: 35%
Inflation rate 1993 to 2018: 73% (https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=199301&year2=201712)

The CAAD12 is arguably a "better" bike than the R900. Looks like a good value to me.

Greg

[pdmtong]

Agree, even a cheap Specialized is knocking on the door of the top tier. And I'd rather be riding Tiagra than most anything Sram or Campagnolo make.

I would be interested in hearing more about your opinion on this ... which SRAM or Campagnolo groups and what about them you did not care for.

[dancinkozmo]

I would be interested in hearing more about your opinion on this ... which SRAM or Campagnolo groups and what about them you did not care for.

here we go !

https://i.imgur.com/8dnXJdu.gif

[jtbadge]

This doesn't go for Tiagra, but I like 105 and higher Shimano and any SRAM over the Record 10 group I briefly owned this fall. Not for me.

[pdmtong]

here we go !
I hope rnhood does not read that as a challenge or as an attempt by me to draw him into some kind of heated discussion. I'm not hear to fly the flag for the other brands...I actually like all three as each has its merits.

But, when someone says i would rather ride tiagra than most anything from the other two...well, I would be interested in reading some elaboration.

Staying on topic, I would have to ride current Tiagra to agree or not with Nick as I perviously considered 105 t be the base entry for an enthusiast. My daughter from about age 9-13 rode sora, tiagra then 10sp 105 and had a clear preference for 105 from both a fit and shifting and braking standpoint. Despite her youth she a pretty accomplished rider able to clean adv-intermediates at lift assisted northstar and rode up our 3.3/1300' bench mark climb (both at age nine)

[pdmtong]

This doesn't go for Tiagra, but I like 105 and higher Shimano and any SRAM over the Record 10 group I briefly owned this fall. Not for me.

same question here...what was it about R10 that the OP did not like. interested in moving the comment from a statement to a learning.

I stopped using shimano road at 9sp ultegra triple. I like the fixed lever of sram and campagnolo. If i got on current gen shimano, I suspect it wouldn't be a big deal to adapt back to the dual lever motion.

[Kontact]

1993 Cannondale R900 with Ultegra: $1,560 (https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/SearchListingDetail.aspx?id=40880&make=672&model=40920&year=1993&priceMax=20000)
2018 Cannondale CAAD12 Ultegra: $2,100 (http://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Bike/ProductDetail?Id=fec95de0-450b-47ba-8afa-ce486b33ec3a&parentid=undefined)
Increase in price: 35%
Inflation rate 1993 to 2018: 73% (https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=199301&year2=201712)

The CAAD12 is arguably a "better" bike than the R900. Looks like a good value to me.

Greg

The R900 was Cannondale's top of the line road frameset in 1993. The Supersix Evo is today's equivalent. Cannondale cheaped out on the wheels with the Supersix Ultegra, and Ultegra is about $300 to $400 less than Dura Ace. So is the top of the line 1993 R900 a good comparison to the $2100 CAAD, or the Supersix DA that Cannondale sells for $5000? (Or we could say $4600 if we reflect Ultegra pricing.)


Yeah, you can get Ultegra bikes from Bikesdirect for $1500 today. But that would have been like putting Ultegra on a HiTen frame in 1993. You have to consider what is considered actually high end in these different eras. Your standard carbon framed Ultegra bike is $3000 with entry level, off brand wheels these days, and when you put "race wheels" on it the price goes screaming up.

[thwart]

Agree, even a cheap Specialized is knocking on the door of the top tier. And I'd rather be riding Tiagra than most anything Sram or Campagnolo make.

Someone is having a bad day. Or forgot their coffee.

[jtbadge]

same question here...what was it about R10 that the OP did not like. interested in moving the comment from a statement to a learning.

I stopped using shimano road at 9sp ultegra triple. I like the fixed lever of sram and campagnolo. If i got on current gen shimano, I suspect it wouldn't be a big deal to adapt back to the dual lever motion.

Paddle shifting shifts the RD to the opposite direction that I am used to from the other brands. The thumb shifter motion is awkward. Hood ergonomics were uncomfortable. Pproprietary shift cables and freehub body reduce cross compatibility with the rest of my gear. The clearcoat on the carbon stuff chips easily and looks shoddy.

Granted, 11 speed has fixed some of this stuff. And I'm glad I tried it.

[gasman]

I don't really think it's being a troll to knock SRAM,Campy or Shimano. We all have our preferences and actually they all work fine as far as I can tell.
No need to shout on the forum.

[GregL]

The R900 was Cannondale's top of the line road frameset in 1993. The Supersix Evo is today's equivalent. Cannondale cheaped out on the wheels with the Supersix Ultegra, and Ultegra is about $300 to $400 less than Dura Ace. So is the top of the line 1993 R900 a good comparison to the $2100 CAAD, or the Supersix DA that Cannondale sells for $5000? (Or we could say $4600 if we reflect Ultegra pricing.)
OK, I'm happy to discuss this on your terms:

1993 Cannondale R2000 ("top of the line" with Dura Ace): $2,665 (https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/SearchListingDetail.aspx?id=43743&make=672&model=40914&year=1993&priceMax=20000)
2018 Cannondale SuperSix EVO Dura Ace (not top of the line, but rough equivalent to 1993 R2000): $5,000 (http://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Bike/ProductDetail?Id=a99a4630-c471-43d5-a56f-31a3d25fda86&parentid=undefined)
Increase in price: 88%
Inflation rate 1993 to 2018: 73%

IMO, the SuperSix EVO is a much more advanced bike than the R2000. Yes, the cost increase surpassed the inflation rate, but not by a huge amount considering the advancements in bike technology. It is my contention that today's middle and high-end bikes are better values than those of 25 years ago. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and more importantly, how they spend their $$.

Greg

[beeatnik]

Also like to add - InCycle in SanDimas - excellent LBS.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-a43z5APOHao/Wmz8AnwLbFI/AAAAAAAAC9c/7ShsuuDIaDkiuLjT3AeP17JwySeEv7IWwCEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1900.JPG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-401o8H-z3T4/Wmz8AvennPI/AAAAAAAAC8U/pRyrXs95vdM2Rwc_gF6IVa07kyay-KYWQCEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1910.JPG

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-R-TjTZ1wjeo/Wmz8BbtlSVI/AAAAAAAAC8Y/NLVeT1F59bsSyG7eClmaCzoPE-fmTjNAACEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1913.JPG

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0jQrNcJZU7c/Wmz8CgkausI/AAAAAAAAC8s/pRJup37U23YT4E89437NJTC8-OjEeluLwCEwYBhgL/s1200/IMG_1939.JPG

AS, I like your style.

A homely bike in homely mountains. Who needs beauty when there's speed and suffering.

[choke]

I'm sure it all works fine but aesthetically the new stuff is a huge thumbs down for me...Campy included.

I ride bikes with vintage parts quite a bit and I feel that the only real improvements in regards to newer parts is that they are lighter and that more gears means smaller jumps between cogs. I think that my Zeus group shifts about 95% as well as my 10 or 11sp; perhaps if I was racing the WT that 5% would matter but since I'm not....

[pdmtong]

Paddle shifting shifts the RD to the opposite direction that I am used to from the other brands. The thumb shifter motion is awkward. Hood ergonomics were uncomfortable. Pproprietary shift cables and freehub body reduce cross compatibility with the rest of my gear. The clearcoat on the carbon stuff chips easily and looks shoddy. Granted, 11 speed has fixed some of this stuff. And I'm glad I tried it.

I love my campy BUT I also see your points and would not try to convince you to feel differently. Thanks for sharing it.

I think people can adapt to shift patterns but if the hood ergo ais not comfy, and you want 10sp cross-compatibility no wonder campy is out in your house.

[pbarry]

Riding Tiagra 4700 on the gravel rig. Works great. The rest of my bikes are Campy 9 and 10 speed.

[ceolwulf]

New Tiagra as well here on my Scott Solace, because I was too cheap to spring for the Solace 20 and also didn't especially want disc brakes, at least not enough to pay extra for them.

Shifts butter smooth and has been faultlessly reliable. Other than lighter weight and nicer appearance (main complaint is the crank is kinda lame) not sure I could ask for much more. I was really surprised. Thought 105 was still kind of the minimum for good shifting. Not any more.

[acorn_user]

San Dimas? Excellent!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVle0kopfes

[Hilltopperny]

The point of diminishing returns on bicycle gear is pretty evident. It all comes down to preference and what we feel is a good dollar to value ratio. Most modern components work very well from Sora to DA, Veloce to SR and Apex to Red.

I have two titanium all road style bikes that cost significantly different amounts of money on the way. The one is a local boutique no holds barred(at least for me) No 22 drifter build with 8020 hydro and new reynolds ATR carbon hoops with an anodized frame complete with braze ons for rack and fenders and carbon cockpit.

The second is a 2018 lynskey Urbano with a set of Stans aluminum wheels to dt240 hubs I picked up here, bar end shifters, triple 9spd deore drivetrain, mechanical discs, rack and fender mounts as a bombproof all weather and most likely winter bike.

I think both will be great bikes. One has a lot more time invested in the frame building process with all the subtle details which is reflected in the price. I can't wait to actually get some miles on them to compare, but one thing is absolutely certain and that is that the lynskey build when all is said and done will cost me significantly less than the No 22 frameset did.

You can build a great riding bike from all kinds of cheaper (by our standards here) parts. I definitely don't need anything over a certain level of gear aside from the aesthetic since I am not fast nor fit enough get the extra marginal gains from it.

The No 22 is the first bike I've ever spent this kind of money on and I do enjoy the process of having them build it up for me. All in all I spent lots of time debating before actually pulling the trigger on this bike and I'm sure I'll be happy with the end result. A super nice locally made dream bike!

The Lynskey was an impulse buy at a crazy price for a brand new titanium frameset. It seemed to be too good of a deal to pass on. I picked up a few of their older frames on closeout and am very impressed at the quality to dollar ratio you get from them. Lynskey makes a great riding bike and if you catch them at the end of the year you can buy a handmade in the USA frame for a song.

[gemship]

My guess is if the op were to regularly ride this as a only goto bike he would eventually burn out parts. The wheels would be the first to go. I personally don't put out big numbers nor do I weigh much more than 160 and eventually I would have problems with the rear wheel warping. As it's a cheap machine made wheel anyways for a start. So the wheels would be the first upgrade and maybe only necessary upgrade at least for me.

[gemship]

In the '90s a $1200 bike was a pro-level racer. Now it is entry level. That isn't because of inflation, but because we've come to believe that a $3000 bike is perfectly average and a $7000 bike is money well spent.

But $1200 is still a huge investment in a single sporting goods item - we've just normalized the luxury expenditures we make in cycling to the point that we talk about lower end Rolex pricing as if it is the only way of telling the time.


A $1200 bike should feel awesome as it really isn't doing anything so significantly different than what a Nashbar aluminum bike with Microshift 8 speed and Tektro parts would do for $500. We've just lost sight of how much our sport has become the poster child for diminishing returns. In the last 25 years "pro level" bike pricing has increased nearly 10 times. What other common sports, leisure or travel item has skyrocketed that much? Supercars?

Well said but with one caveat. I do think that comparable products made I dunno some time ago. Maybe they were made with more love hence more durable. Like wheels, mgfr's seems to find a way to make things faster and cheaper thru automation but maybe not as reliable.