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cnighbor1
01-29-2018, 12:07 PM
Myth 4: Stiffer Frames Are Faster
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/28/myth-4-stiffer




To celebrate 15 years of Bicycle Quarterly, we are examining 12 myths in cycling – things we (and most others) used to believe, but which we have found to be not true. Today, we'll look at frame stiffness.

When we started Bicycle Quarterly, the thinking about frame stiffness fell into two camps. The majority of cyclists subscribed to the notion that frame flex wastes energy and that stiffer frames are faster. A few scientific types believed that the energy lost to frame flex was small, and thus frame stiffness probably does not matter. There were a few builders, like Bill Davidson, who extolled the 'lively ride' of lightweight tubes, but they were mostly ignored.

At Bicycle Quarterly, we mostly subscribed to the notion that it didn't matter. And so we were happy riding relatively flexible frames... Sure, stiffer frames might offer marginally better performance, but seeing pros win on Vitus and Alan frames that had a reputation for being 'noodles,' we figured that if a frame was stiff enough for Tony Rominger and Sean Kelly, it would be stiff enough for us.

Then we tested a bike that didn't perform well for us. It seemed to bog down on the climbs. It was harder to maintain a high cadence. It wasn't as much fun to ride. I described this to the framebuilder Peter Weigle, adding: "The frame is made from heavy-wall, oversized tubing, so it must be plenty stiff. I can't figure out why it doesn't perform." Peter paused for a while, then he said: "What if the frame is too stiff for you?"

That was something I'd never considered! It was like saying that my bike was too light, or that I had too much power. But it got me thinking.



Along came another Bicycle Quarterly test bike (above). This one performed better than expected. It wasn't particularly lightweight, and our initial expectations weren't all that high. And yet, whether it was me or Mark (our second tester) riding it, this bike climbed faster than our other bikes. It turned out that it was made from very thinwall, and thus flexible, tubing.

So we had tested one bike that was stiffer than our own, and it didn't perform as well. A second one was more flexible, yet it performed better. Even more startling was the difference in feel. On the flexible bike, pedaling faster didn't seem as hard. We were out of breath, but our legs didn't hurt. Once we got in sync with the frame, its response to our pedal strokes felt like a boat rising out of the water, going faster with only a little extra energy input. "You mean, it 'planes'," said Matthew Grimm of Kogswell, when I described the phenomenon to him. Deciding that the phenomenon needed a name, we used the term 'planing' to describe it.

We could only guess at the physical explanations for what we observed, so a term that was purely descriptive of our observations seemed best and most honest. Sort of like saying that a bike 'flies' up a hill, when in reality, its tires don't leave the ground...



How to test whether our experience was real, and not just our perception? (Perhaps Mark and I just liked red bikes?) All the other magazines were still talking about 'laterally stiff and vertically compliant frames' as the ultimate goal... We decided to do a double-blind test with four identical frames, made from three different tubesets. (The duplicate frame served as a control.) Apart from the top and down tubes, the bikes were identical down to the last component. Their weights were equalized to make them truly the same – except that their flex characteristics were different.

The only way to identify them was by their stem cap, and that was switched by the test adminstrator between test runs. And of course, the testers weren't allowed to talk to each other until the experiment was unblinded at the very end. This test was a huge (and expensive) undertaking for a small magazine, but we felt it was important to do this right.



The results confirmed our previous impressions: Two of our three testers could identify which frame they were riding with 100% accuracy, just based on how the frames performed under hard pedaling. Not only that, these riders were consistently faster on the more flexible frames. Power meters showed that they put out up to 12% more power on the frames that 'planed' best for them, yet they felt easier to ride hard. (Our third tester couldn't tell the – very small – differences. All the bikes in this test were relatively flexible by today's standards.)

12% more power is significant! What is happening when a frame planes? A frame that is too stiff apparently 'pushes back' against the rider's pedaling. The rider cannot apply maximum power during the downstroke before their legs start hurting. Imagine pushing against a brick wall – the wall doesn't move, so no work is done, yet your legs fatigue quickly.

If the bike 'planes' in sync with your pedal strokes, then your legs no longer are the limiting factor. Now your cardiovascular system determines how fast you can go: Your maximum heart rate is the limit.

On the stiffer bikes, our legs hurt, but we never reached our maximum heart rate. On the more flexible bikes, our legs didn't hurt, but we were completely out of breath when we reached the top after putting out significantly more power on the climb.



In the decade since we published our double-blind tests, the belief that stiffer frames are better has lost a lot of traction. Experts finally have tried to measure the energy lost to frame flex, and they came up empty-handed. When Damon Rinard, Road Engineering Manager at Cannondale, proclaims, “I no longer believe that the ultimate rigidity defines the ultimate bike!” you know that the world is changing.



The challenge for the future is to fine-tune frame stiffness to the rider. It's not simply that 'more flex is better.' Our tests indicate that more powerful riders may benefit from (slightly) stiffer frames. It all depends on your pedal stroke and power output.

Our subsequent research shows that flex needs to be in the right places for the frame to get in sync with the pedal strokes, so that the rider can reach their maximum power output. We now realize that the frame doesn't just serve to connect the parts, but that it is literally the heart of the bike. Like the right amount of flex in a gym floor allows you to jump higher, or the right amount of flex allows pole vaulters to reach incredible heights, the right amount of frame flex allows cyclists to reach their maximum potential.

Further reading:
•Bicycle Quarterly, the magazine about the passion of cycling.
•Back issues of Bicycle Quarterly with our research about frame flex.
•Expert discussion with Damon Rinard of Cannondale about frame flex.
•Other posts in this series:
- Myth 1: Wider Tires are Slower
- Myth 2: Titanium is Lighter than Steel
- Myth 3: Fenders Slow You Down

Acknowledgments: We thank framebuilder Jeff Lyon who made the frames for the double-blind test, Hank Folsom of Henry James who donated the True Temper tubing, and Hahn Rossman who administered the experiment.

GregL
01-29-2018, 12:26 PM
Making some popcorn and sitting back to watch the show...

fiamme red
01-29-2018, 12:30 PM
I'm skeptical of the 12% figure, but on rolling hills I do feel more in rhythm with the bike on a more flexible steel frame than on a stiff aluminum one.

Tickdoc
01-29-2018, 12:36 PM
plane. This explains why steel works so well on so many bikes, IMO. There is a little forgiveness followed by a snap back to position springing the bike forward. I have it on my old ciocc and it is an undescribably cool feeling.

R3awak3n
01-29-2018, 12:38 PM
Imagine the pro peloton on steel, FLYING and PLANING, putting 12% more watts than now. Probably not even having to pedal to go up hill.

fiamme red
01-29-2018, 12:51 PM
Dave Kirk has a short article on frame flex that is worth reading:

http://kirkframeworks.com/resources/technical/frame-flex/

"What does all this mean to the rider? In my opinion it means a given rider needs a frame with the right combination of the three flexes. And because all riders are unique their bikes should be too. Take the time to really communicate with your builder and he’ll take it all in and put together a dream bike. A bike with the proper amount of flex will help you ride faster, more comfortably, and will create that sweet feeling of a finely tuned machine."

FlashUNC
01-29-2018, 01:15 PM
Ye Gods man, Fair Use. Let's not copy paste entire articles verbatim.

beeatnik
01-29-2018, 01:17 PM
Motorcycles are the fastest.

cnighbor1
01-29-2018, 01:44 PM
Ye Gods man, Fair Use. Let's not copy paste entire articles verbatim.

I left out the " "'s
and the credit where obtained
But does anyone do that now
If your publishing a paper that the above is a must
But here to me a ? for need

Jere
01-29-2018, 04:46 PM
I,m gone to dig my old bike out of the basement
Vitus 979 21 lbs with 21 mm tires and destroy the hills
Anybody want a slow hard to ride Neilpryde Bura 14 lbs with 28 mm tires it hurts my legs.
Sorry my try to be funny

54ny77
01-29-2018, 05:01 PM
it's a well known fact that if it's flexy it'll go farther and faster.

it was proven in competition some years prior:

https://crossfitkells.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/cfk-2-27.gif

ripvanrando
01-29-2018, 05:08 PM
12% ?!

Think of the coin froome could have saved on salbutamol

Where do I sign up?

soulspinner
01-29-2018, 05:10 PM
12% ?!

Think of the coin froome could have saved on salbutamol

Where do I sign up?
um ya

parris
01-29-2018, 05:15 PM
The Cycling Tips dedicated a show to this with Mr. H on the subject thats a good listen. Thanks for sharing.

rnhood
01-29-2018, 05:20 PM
Imagine the pro peloton on steel, FLYING and PLANING, putting 12% more watts than now. Probably not even having to pedal to go up hill.

LOL!! Yea, that's pretty funny. I think Jan has found success in publishing fake news.

ultraman6970
01-29-2018, 05:39 PM
Remember Look got an article I believe in a french publication "mirror du cyclisme" and they said that the kg 86 which they used in to win the tour the 1st time with lemond i believe, was tuned up to flex in harmony with the rider.

They say it created a whip effect helping the rider to pedal.

IMO stiff is ok but too stiff is just idiotic but depends a lot of the rider and the way the guy is fit aswell. Put the world champion amateur in a super stiff carbon frame going uphill against maybe colnador riding a colnago super and probably there the super will be faster than the carbon one. Way too many variables to determine if stiff is better. One thing is for sure, in a few more years or months sure a magazine will do tests again and they will say the opposite and riders will start unloading the stiff stuff and buying noodle just because the magazine said so.

Have a friend that had a ridley fenix carbon, he sucked in it but his fit was off for a lot due to a weird problem he has, he swapped to a pinarello disc and he was flying (well not flying but the difference was noticeable), he said the fenix was too flexy (pave built?) compared with the pinarello, same fit, same rider... so you go figure.

fogrider
01-29-2018, 06:28 PM
The analogy of a wood sprung floor to a brick wall is incorrect for a bike. Brick does not move, a bike will move. Even if a frame is so stiff that it won't flex, push on the pedals and the bike move forward. Since weight is a concern for everyone (rider and manufacturer) just about every frame has flex, but depending on the rider,the question is how much flex for a given acceleration? Oh yeah, in most cases, unless your frame is really flexible, today's frames are only going to flex on hard acceleration. If you're just pedaling around, at 80 percent power, stiffness is not an issue. Ask a tandem rider if stiffness is important.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

93legendti
01-29-2018, 08:42 PM
Slingshot bicycles...

Black Dog
01-29-2018, 08:51 PM
To all the detractors with your witty one line rejoinders let me ask you this: where is your data to show that stiffer is faster or produces a better handling bike? Lots of ways to measure stiffness but where is the actual data that shows a causal relationship between that stiffness and output and handling?

I am not arguing that any position is right, but there are a lot of untested assumptions here and some dogmatic ideology. At least JH is trying and asking some good questions. Read David Kirk’s position on flex. Well thought out and a great place to form some testable hypotheses.

ergott
01-29-2018, 08:58 PM
Not a lot of real science on either side. None of it passes muster for publication in a real scientific journal.



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beeatnik
01-29-2018, 09:07 PM
To all the detractors with your witty one line rejoinders let me ask you this: where is your data to show that stiffer is faster or produces a better handling bike? Lots of ways to measure stiffness but where is the actual data that shows a causal relationship between that stiffness and output and handling?

I am not arguing that any position is right, but there are a lot of untested assumptions here and some dogmatic ideology. At least JH is trying and asking some good questions. Read David Kirk’s position on flex. Well thought out and a great place to form some testable hypotheses.

Stiff is good is you like stiff. "Compliant" is good if you like complaint. Anyway, it's all a moot point because fork and wheel stiffness are more important than frame stiffness. Ask anyone who races and isn't trying to go to the ER.

Kontact
01-29-2018, 11:38 PM
People can feel stiff. They can't feel efficient.

At some point the stiff frame bubble will burst, like the max pressure tire bubble burst.

oldpotatoe
01-30-2018, 07:05 AM
To all the detractors with your witty one line rejoinders let me ask you this: where is your data to show that stiffer is faster or produces a better handling bike? Lots of ways to measure stiffness but where is the actual data that shows a causal relationship between that stiffness and output and handling?

I am not arguing that any position is right, but there are a lot of untested assumptions here and some dogmatic ideology. At least JH is trying and asking some good questions. Read David Kirk’s position on flex. Well thought out and a great place to form some testable hypotheses.

Yikes..kinda serious, Si? About a toy, afterall..There is a lot of 'dogmatic ideology' in lots of places like health care, politics....but some about toys? So what?

IMHO, of course....:)

mcteague
01-30-2018, 07:44 AM
Yikes..kinda serious, Si? About a toy, afterall..There is a lot of 'dogmatic ideology' in lots of places like health care, politics....but some about toys? So what?

IMHO, of course....:)

http://images.slideplayer.com/20/5971489/slides/slide_2.jpg


:D

Tim

oldpotatoe
01-30-2018, 07:46 AM
http://images.slideplayer.com/20/5971489/slides/slide_2.jpg


:D

Tim

It is a toy and yes, you need to follow the rules...:)

Black Dog
01-30-2018, 09:20 AM
Yikes..kinda serious, Si? About a toy, afterall..There is a lot of 'dogmatic ideology' in lots of places like health care, politics....but some about toys? So what?

IMHO, of course....:)

Yup, not curing cancer hear, just a debate about a hobby for well off folks. I don't really have a strong position on this, just like to talk about this stuff and not a huge fan of any position on much of anything that is not backed with some evidence. I certainly don't lose any sleep over this stuff. But, like you, I thinks there are some things with our hobby that are worth calling out when people make 'statements'. To your point, my post did make me sound like an ass. :butt: