OT: Car Woes

[Pegoready]

Hey all,

Sorry for the OT subject, but I am constantly impressed by the knowledge here especially with cars.

So, the story:

We have a 2006 Toyota Matrix, which is basically a Corolla. It has 120,000 miles. Always maintained at Toyota dealerships regularly. At the end of 2017 the battery and starter were replaced. It has been a great car except every so often we get a no start / no crank situation which we thought was solved by replacing the starter in Nov. 2017 at a Toyota dealership.

Saturday morning: drove it 10 minutes to an Open House. 10 minutes later we come back and turn the key. It won't start, won't crank. The radio and the dashboard lights turn on. We turn the key and nothing happens. It's as if one were trying to start the car from Drive. We put the car in neutral and rolling it back and forth, we jostle the steering wheel, try everything and no luck. We call AAA. He tries to jump the car. Nothing. We put it in neutral, back it up to get on the truck, and voila! it starts. We drive to a closeby Midas.

Saturday afternoon: Midas says replace the alternator as it wasn't reading a high enough voltage. Fine. $500 later the car won't start. The guy tries a different key I had, it works, he claims it's the battery or chip in the one key that is bad (huh?). I was too tired to question it, plus the car was running. We drive off. Two minutes later we stop for gas with the "good" key. Fill up. Turn the key to start it up. Nothing, same problem. Won't start, won't crank, all dashboard lights work. We call AAA again. While waiting we keep trying the car with both "bad" and "good" keys. About 20 minutes later it randomly starts with the "bad" key. We cancel AAA and drive off.

Sunday Morning: Same story. We drive to breakfast, drive home with the "good" key. Park the car. Try to start the car again with the "bad" key in the driveway. Won't start, won't crank. 30 minutes later I randomly try the car and it starts up.

So, I drop the car at the Toyota dealership. They tell me the key chip theory is bogus, as he's never seen such a problem since chips were introduced to keys. They keep it for 24 hours. Can't duplicate the problem. I drive the car 100 miles up the coast with no issues.

Today: Drive errands. No issue. Go out again in the evening for gas. Drive 2 minutes. Park. Then... same problem. Won't start, won't crank, all dashboard lights work. The key just rotates to its stop and the car does nothing. The best way I could describe it is the car thinks it's not in Park or Neutral. I shift through P-R-N-D etc. I try locking and unlocking the car, thinking it might have something to do with the immobilizer. I try at least 100x to start it. I put the car in neutral and try rolling it around. No help. I call AAA. After about 20-30 minutes while waiting I try the car. It fires up.

At this point I am so confused. I can't replicate the problem. The common denominator is it happens after the car has been driven a short time and is stopped a short time. The car always fires up after waiting 20-30 minutes. We've had this problem very seldom in the past but never with the frequency of the past week. Many pro's have misdiagnosed or been plain confused.

Any ideas Paceline? I'm not a car guy and I'm not excited about shopping for another. I want this car to run as long as possible.

Because you need bike content:

https://i.imgur.com/5YNEkKA.jpg

[rwsaunders]

Hopefully it might be as simple as checking the connection of your battery cables to the battery posts. Over time, the cable openings can become ever so loose and even though you tighten them, they can't make full contact with the posts. Clean the posts, grease them and if the cables move after you tighten them, they make shims to address the gap.

It's happened to me on two cars...very perplexing when it happens too as sometimes the car starts and sometimes no click at all.

[Louis]

1) Tell the dealer how they are most likely to duplicate the problem.

2) Leave the car with them and tell them that you don't want it back until they've figured out the problem and fixed it. (or told you how much it will cost to fix it)

I'd had to guess, I'd say that it's an intermittent electrical issue, but that's just a wild guess.

Final option: trade it in to dealer for Blue Book value for an equivalent car in the same condition, but without the starting problem. (I assume it's too late to get it replaced as a lemon.)

Final comment: Not surprisingly, based on my experience with those guys, you were ripped off by Midas. Is there any way you can get some money back from them? Say a $200 coupon for future work?

[pdmtong]

the battery in the key thought is not bogus.

daughter couldn't get the car to start the beater RX300 (think AWD camry with a lift kit) one morning. my key works, turns out battery in her key fob is toast.

since both your keys work, no idea. BUT, a dead key battery is an issue.

[Louis]

Don't most keys today have an immobilizer feature that's separate from the "lock / unlock the doors and trunk" function?

My Subie's "regular" keys have the buttons to push for those, and can be opened to replace the battery, which presumably powers that.

The valet key does not have those buttons, but presumably has the immobilizer feature, otherwise the valet wouldn't be able to start the car. I assume that's a sort of RFID thing, that doesn't require a battery in the key. (the valet key has a medium-sized rubber blob on the end, which I assume has the RFID thing inside, but has no way to access a battery or anything like that, which is why I assume it's a no battery required RFID).

My point: might you have an intermittent problem with the car end of the immobilizer device? If that didn't work then it wouldn't start. (I say the car end of things, because it's unlikely that both of your keys would fail at the same time.)

If the car never dies while driving down the road that tells you something else about the nature of the problem - it's starting-related, not running-related, which eliminates at least a few of the potential causes.

Good Luck

[Louis]

From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser

The electric immobilizer/alarm system was invented by St. George Evans and Edward Birkenbuel and patented in 1919.[2] They developed a 3x3 grid of double-contact switches on a panel mounted inside the car so when the ignition switch was activated, current from the battery (or magneto) went to the spark plugs allowing the engine to start, or immobilizing the vehicle and sounding its horn.[3] The system settings could be changed each time the car was driven.[3] Modern immobiliser systems are automatic, meaning the owner does not have to remember to activate it.[4]

Immobilisers have been mandatory in all new cars sold in Germany since 1 January 1998, in the United Kingdom since 1 October 1998, in Finland since 1998, in Australia since 2001 and in Canada since 2007. Early models used a static code in the ignition key (or key fob) which was recognised by an RFID loop around the lock barrel and checked against the vehicle's engine control unit (ECU) for a match. If the code is unrecognised, the ECU will not allow fuel to flow and ignition to take place. Later models use rolling codes or advanced cryptography to defeat copying of the code from the key or ECU.

The microcircuit inside the key is activated by a small electromagnetic field which induces current to flow inside the key body, which in turn broadcasts a unique binary code which is read by the automobile's ECU. When the ECU determines that the coded key is both current and valid, the ECU activates the fuel-injection sequence.

In some vehicles, attempts to use an unauthorised or "non-sequenced" key cause the vehicle to activate a timed no-start condition and in some highly advanced systems, even use satellite or mobile phone communication to alert a security firm that an unauthorised attempt was made to code a key.

[Pegoready]

Hopefully it might be as simple as checking the connection of your battery cables to the battery posts. Over time, the cable openings can become ever so loose and even though you tighten them, they can't make full contact with the posts. Clean the posts, grease them and if the cables move after you tighten them, they make shims to address the gap.

It's happened to me on two cars...very perplexing when it happens too as sometimes the car starts and sometimes no click at all.

Thank you. I will try that. Can't hurt, right?

the battery in the key thought is not bogus.

daughter couldn't get the car to start the beater RX300 (think AWD camry with a lift kit) one morning. my key works, turns out battery in her key fob is toast.

since both your keys work, no idea. BUT, a dead key battery is an issue.

So would the battery in the clicker affect the key? I don't understand that. I'm totally game to replace the battery as it's an easy/cheap solution but I didn't think the key and the clicker were interrelated.


My point: might you have an intermittent problem with the car end of the immobilizer device? If that didn't work then it wouldn't start. (I say the car end of things, because it's unlikely that both of your keys would fail at the same time.)

If the car never dies while driving down the road that tells you something else about the nature of the problem - it's starting-related, not running-related, which eliminates at least a few of the potential causes.

Good Luck

That's what my theory was to the Toyota dealership... that the problem was in the security immobilizer. The guy, who's been there for 30 years, looked at me like I was crazy. :confused:

1)
Final comment: Not surprisingly, based on my experience with those guys, you were ripped off by Midas. Is there any way you can get some money back from them? Say a $200 coupon for future work?

Troubling. I'll call and see if they can do anything for me.

[Louis]

Troubling. I'll call and see if they can do anything for me.

$500 is a lot to spend to replace something that most likely had zero relationship to the problem you went in there to fix, even though they told you that it would fix the problem.

They'll probably say something like: "Well, even if it wasn't the cause of the starting problem, the alternator was bad and needed to be replaced anyway." My reply to that is "Bull, had I known that it would not fix the problem there's no way I would have had you do the work. Given that you did not fix the starting problem, you owe me something more in return for my $500."

[BobbyJones]

I didn't read the entire thread, but you may want to find a Matrix / Toyota forum to post on.

I know that in my Honda world, an ignition switch /circuit faliure manifests itself like you describe. A quick search returned the following, which may or maynot help you out

http://www.greatautohelp.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5646

Good Luck. Electrical gremlins are the worst!

[Hank Scorpio]

I am guessing they already checked the ignition switch? Do you have many keys on the same key ring as the car key? Also I am guessing they tested the neutral safety switch too?

[OtayBW]

Solenoid.

[alancw3]

Solenoid.

had a similar problem years ago. turned out to be a failing transmission safety switch which only allows car engine to only turnover when car in park or neutral. don't know if you have an auto or stick? i think on a stick there is some sort of clutch pedal switch that senses when pedal is pushed down to again allow engine to turnover.

hope problem is resolved as there is nothing like not knowing if your car will start. please let us know if you find the problem.

[mcfarton]

If there is a solenoid between the battery and starter it is most likely bad and a cheap fix


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[cderalow]

Have them check the continuity on the transmissions park sensor.

Every once in a while the sensor/switch that tells the car ecu that it’s in park and safe to start fails.

That would cause an intermittent issue like this.

Otherwise check all grounds for proper connection to the frame and body.

A bad ground could have a similar effect.


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[Dirtdiggler]

From your first post describes the car will start on a cold engine first start, but when warm or second start up its dead ?

[soulspinner]

If there is a solenoid between the battery and starter it is most likely bad and a cheap fix


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this

[Hilltopperny]

Might also have condensation in your distributor cap. I'll second the bad connection. A loose connection was the culprit when my old avalon was doing the same thing. Do your gauges jump at all while driving? If it is a bad connection you just have to follow the wire and tighten a bolt.

[Peter P.]

Take the care to a shop that specializes in car electrical problems. They'll advertise in the phone book as such.

I think it's an ignition switch or neutral safety switch.

[weisan]

pego pal, I am really sorry to hear about your car woes.

First, I would like to reassure you that the problem, whatever the root cause is, is completely fixable.

Second, the trick is in finding the root cause and avoid going after symptoms or being misled by false signals.

An experienced and competent mechanic with high integrity can accomplish that through patience and systematic and thorough diagnostics and eliminations. Be willing to pay for such a service or person , they are worth their weight in gold.

Perhaps, share your zip code here and see if there's anyone who knows and can recommend a good mechanic in your area.

There's where I will start.

[oldpotatoe]

I haven't read all the posts but I think it has something to do with the car 'thinking' it's in neutral or park. Regardless of what some 'net mommy's' say, I think a good wrench can figure it out.

[texbike]

I would also check the ground from your starter to the body of the car. The point of contact where it connects to the body can corrode and give you intermittent starting issues.

Honestly, it sounds like something simple that's being overlooked.

Good luck!

Texbike

[Mikej]

Brake pedals have sensors that will prevent ignition as well, but you can usually hear them click when activating. Look into that. Also, what is your battery situation like? It should be reading in the 14v range when off, also, salt can deteriorate copper battery lines to the starter and also the main ground to the motor block, give that a look.

[JAGI410]

Neutral Safety Switch. My old 87 Shelby used to do the same exact thing. The computer didn’t know the car was in park/neutral and it wouldn’t start. If you moved the shifter a few times it would “trigger” the sensor just right and it would start again. Next time this happens, shift to neutral and see if it starts.

[AngryScientist]

Is this an auto? If so next time this happens try starting the car in N. my old jeep wouldn't start in P sometimes if the switch didn't make up right; which happened randomly, but would always start in N

[AngryScientist]

And Jag beat me to it!

[josephr]

had a similar problem years ago. turned out to be a failing transmission safety switch which only allows car engine to only turnover when car in park or neutral. don't know if you have an auto or stick? i think on a stick there is some sort of clutch pedal switch that senses when pedal is pushed down to again allow engine to turnover.

hope problem is resolved as there is nothing like not knowing if your car will start. please let us know if you find the problem.

This is my first guess too....probably a contactor type which has gotten sticky from too many spilled vanilla lattes or energy drinks. ;) It sounds like he has an automatic since he mentions he puts it in 'drive' and hasn't talked about a push start.

[wildboar]

try cleaning the ignition out with contact cleaner, etc?

[Pegoready]

All, sincerest thanks for all the advice. I've got some things to work on. Some very good leads here.

To answer some questions:

don't know if you have an auto or stick?

auto

From your first post describes the car will start on a cold engine first start, but when warm or second start up its dead ?

That's correct

Do your gauges jump at all while driving?

No they do not. Once the car is running it behaves like new.


Perhaps, share your zip code here and see if there's anyone who knows and can recommend a good mechanic in your area.



Ventura CA 93003 but I'll travel anywhere between OC and Santa Barbara to fix this! This includes LA.

Neutral Safety Switch. My old 87 Shelby used to do the same exact thing. The computer didn’t know the car was in park/neutral and it wouldn’t start. If you moved the shifter a few times it would “trigger” the sensor just right and it would start again. Next time this happens, shift to neutral and see if it starts.

Is this an auto? If so next time this happens try starting the car in N. my old jeep wouldn't start in P sometimes if the switch didn't make up right; which happened randomly, but would always start in N

I wish this were the case. I tried moving from N to P dozens of times, trying to start the car in each. If this is the problem it's not obvious. The Toyota tech said he checked the neutral safety switch for corrosion and it looked fine, fwiw.

[jimbolina]

I have found some of the forums out there that are specific to the vehicle one owns are excellent resources for troubleshooting problems, both big and small. I have a 2000 Jeep Wrangler (that I purchased new) and have never been to a dealer or repairman to get it fixed when it had developed issues. I would simply put the symptoms or problems the vehicle was experiencing to the Jeep forum I am a long time member of and then those folks will usually readily contribute their advice or potential solution.

The best part is over time I have figured out who is both the most competent and responsive and sometimes directly message that individual to get a more focused and confident response. There are some amazingly knowledgeable individuals on this forum!

As I mentioned, I have thus far been able to correct the problem, repair or replace issues myself using my own tools, or purchasing a particular one required for the specific task. So far, so good.

Those forums can obviously be great. Much like this one!

[cp43]

I wish this were the case. I tried moving from N to P dozens of times, trying to start the car in each. If this is the problem it's not obvious. The Toyota tech said he checked the neutral safety switch for corrosion and it looked fine, fwiw.

There is usually a neutral safety switch override. Have you tried that? I think you just need a flat head screw driver to engage it. The procedure should be described in your owners manual. It's easy to do, and would give you some solid info debugging info.

Good luck!

Chris

[Mikej]

You could also just try to plug an OBD scanner in, could have a code stuck in the CPU?

[veggieburger]

Solenoid.

Yes...I think this. I believe it's an inexpensive electrical fix. If it is starting sometimes and not others, something small is either getting rattled slightly loose, or corrosion, or something along those lines. Finding it is the PITA...kind of like that squeak in your bike you just can't pinpoint. Good luck, the Matrix is a good, reliable car. If you can fix this, it should bring you many more years of service.

[choke]

Electrical problems can be a bear to figure out.

Long story short (as possible)....I had a check engine light come on. The scanner said it was a "Keep Alive Memory" problem which probably meant that the 'brain box' was going bad so I decided to keep driving it until it died. Soon it had more problems, gauges going crazy when I put on the brake and then it became hard to get out of Park like the neutral safety switch was going bad. Because of the other problems I started looking at things besides the brain box and eventually I found it.....the brake light fuse was not getting a good connection. I bent the prongs a tiny bit and everything went back to normal. It makes absolutely no sense that a bad brake light fuse would cause the check engine light to come on - not to mention the other problems - but it did.

So my advice...double check all the fuses.

[zmudshark]

My Honda did this. It was the starter.

[ultraman6970]

I had a matrix awd for a few years an never had this problem, but since you had yours longer than mine I might suspect a few things...

The trottle position sensor is going bad... TPS... the other could be a cable that goes to the TPS, or another cable that is bad, you have to check your harnesses, the nice about the matrix is that the car is simple and has a lot of room to work, everything is right there.

Did you check the Starting relay??? go to the fuses box and to test it is super easy just wap it for another one that is in the box, put a mark to it tho so you know which one is it :P

A bad fuel pump doesnt do what you have, usually it cranks but since there's no pressure the car doesnt start, yours is dead. Either way check if the fuel pump like buzz once you put the car in the ON position, some fuel pumps are super anoying and noisy, well worry when the noise is not there no more. Rather have a noisy fuel pump :P

IMO is a cable somewhere.

[cmg]

Does the car have a standard trans or automatic? standard requires depressed clutch at start, there is a switch at the top of the pedal location, the rubber grommet dries up and cracks, leaves a hole that switch doesn't engage and car doesn't turn over. if an Automatic remove the cover and look at the switch when the car is in park, check it for continuity or for correct location/alignment. Have the key fob checked at a locksmith shop. Check battery cables for corrosion. Watch youtube videos on your cars make/model/year on how to check the ignition system. all of these issues have been on mine both Toyota and Honda. also visit Toyota forums on the matrix, problems are often common among models.

[Ken Robb]

So as I remember the symptoms this is only a problem with getting the starter to crank when the engine is lukewarm. It starts when cold and it starts when hot. After starting it runs fine. For me this rules out a problem ignition, fuel pump, air-mass sensor, etc.

It seems to be a connection that is intermittent based on temperature. I've had similar problems with electronic components in immobilizer circuits and mechanical switches. I think the advice already offered about isolating or bypassing circuits is the best way to diagnose the mystery and my first move would be connecting the starter directly to the battery using jumper cables when it won't crank using the key. If it cranks then you know the starter is good so the problem has to be "upstream". I like the idea that it could be the transmission position switch. If the car also requires the brake pedal to be depressed to start the switch there is suspect. A fuse or relay that sends power to the starter relay might be bad. I've had BMWs that used several identical relays for several systems so I was able to troubleshoot and identify a bad relay by swapping them around until I swapped the fuel pump relay with the light relay. That let the car start/run but the lights would no longer work. A quick trip to buy one new relay and all was well.

The contacts on your key switch "start" position or start button might be bad.

All the shops' guessing about bad alternators and batteries should have been
answered by testing the voltage at the battery and starter terminals before and during attempts to start the car.

As others have stated a good mechanic should be able to solve this with a systematic analysis. Good luck.

[batman1425]

I like the ground idea, or neutral interlock sensor.

Even if the factory ground point is clean and well fixed, you could have an abrasion in the harness somewhere that is shorting it. This happened to my uncles car several years ago. Same symptoms you describe. He replaced as much as was easy to replace - alternator, battery, etc. No joy. Then starting going after the wiring harness - which was a last resort as it was a bear to work on in this particular car. He found a section of it under the drivers seat that had been rubbing against the seat mounting point. Slowly over time the rubbing ate through the insulation and it was intermittently grounding out. Replaced the frayed section and covered it with an abrasion resistant sleeve. Problem solved for $10 in parts.

Electrical gremlins can be a nightmare to track down. Try to attack it in a reductionist fashion and you'll get to the bottom of it.

[shovelhd]

Definitely bypass the neutral safety switch and test. Also, does the car require you to step on the brake to start it while in Park? If so, the next time it won't start, have someone check that your brake lights are on when you step on the pedal. It could be some kind of brake interlock.

[glepore]

Definitely bypass the neutral safety switch and test. Also, does the car require you to step on the brake to start it while in Park? If so, the next time it won't start, have someone check that your brake lights are on when you step on the pedal. It could be some kind of brake interlock.

This. Could also be in any of the harnesses to same.

[Ken Robb]

I just remembered: sometimes failing relays can be "fixed" temporarily by rapping on them with something like the handle of a screwdriver. Once you find the one that is misbehaving replace it and hope that is the end of your troubles.

[lzuk]

Failing starter relay

[572cv]

Ken suggested key switch contacts. He and others have suggested relays.

I've had both of those problems at different points in time, though not in a Matrix.

[zambenini]

I have had this exact problem on two other Toyota vehicles. An easy fix...

Hopefully it might be as simple as checking the connection of your battery cables to the battery posts. Over time, the cable openings can become ever so loose and even though you tighten them, they can't make full contact with the posts. Clean the posts, grease them and if the cables move after you tighten them, they make shims to address the gap.

It's happened to me on two cars...very perplexing when it happens too as sometimes the car starts and sometimes no click at all.