to quote the replacements re:interbike

[obtuse]

i bought a headache.

mp show. i'm really dissappointed in the direction of the industry as evidenced at this fiasco. firstly the quality of high-end "racing bikes" is at an all time low. every pro who bothers to think about it that i have talked to recently off the record, complains about the handling traits, the rigidity and the over-all ride of the bikes the sponsors put them on. unfortunatly and with incredible irony, these cookie-cutter fiasco chinese plastic things that permeate throughout the peloton all have distinctive shapes and looks and have replaced the decal as the principle marketing tool for the sponsor. thus, a pro can't even have his favorite builder; eg serotta, pegoretti etc. build a real race bike for them.

the few guys in europe and america still making real cutting edge race bikes with custom options and proven design are either too small to sponsor a pro-tour team or dis-interested considering the cost. the new serotta hsg stuff is a great example. these bikes would kick the living crap out of 90% of what the pro-peloton is riding; but serotta and merckx and the like would be fools to devote their resources to lining the pockets of the owners and directors of discovery, quickstep, csc, gerolsteiner etc.

given the economys of scale how much longer can colnago and pinarello; larger companies than the aforementioned serotta continue to provide real race bikes to the best riders in the world? without the best riders in the world how tough will it be for these companies to continue to innovate? who knows, but its a given that by shifting production to taiwan and focusing on high margin bread-and-butter bikes both these firms will hope to be able to keep their high-end race involvement and their domestically made custom super bikes solvent.

still i'm concerned. a mere 12 years ago almost every bike being raced proffessionaly in europe was a custom, made to measure hand-made bicycle utilizing the best of both design and material availble. now most teams ride garbage you and i could for a few hundred bucks. has this made production race bikes better? probably but who cares. they still suck for the most part.

anyway sorry for the rant.

obtuse

[catulle]

Not a rant. Great insight from someone who knows. Hey, thank you for the candid post. Take care.

[Too Tall]

This too shall pass. It is a phase non? Aren't these markets driven by consumers...ultimately?

[mike p]

"these cookie-cutter fiasco chinese plastic things that permeate throughout the peloton all have distinctive shapes and looks and have replaced the decal as the principle marketing tool for the sponsor."

x1 I agree I really dont think anything beats a properly designed steel or al bike. I've ridden a few CF wonders and have never really been that impressed, Some aren't bad but no real improvement either. And while some look flashy they dont age well at all.

Mike

[David Kirk]

From where I sit it looks like this has been progressing for a some time now. It's always frustrating when I hear average Joes on thier Tuesday night ride say something like " I wish I could ride a real pro bike". Careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

The simple fact of the matter is that most folks on this forum ride bikes that are much better designed and built than most anything most of the pros are forced to ride.

Dave

[catulle]

From where I sit it looks like this has been progressing for a some time now. It's always frustrating when I hear average Joes on thier Tuesday night ride say something like " I wish I could ride a real pro bike". Careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

The simple fact of the matter is that most folks on this forum ride bikes that are much better designed and built than most anything most of the pros are forced to ride.

Dave

Yup. I know. I have one being painted that beats the pants off Landis' and Pereiro's anyday of the week. Now, we are talking bikes here, not legs, right...? I hope so, anyway. :beer:

[Smiley]

Its a tribute to the small and slightly larger builders of steel and Ti bikes that are still making a living building REAL bikes , forget about all that plastic stuff. Heard mentaility as once the first maker went to China it was just a matter of time before they all got there. Sounds like Mexico after NAFTA . The jerk is right and the average Joe consumer is being taken for a ride. Praise to Serotta , Seven , Kirk , Vanilla , Zank , Goodrich , Calfee , Parlee , Sachs , and the rest of the clan out there. I tip my hat to you.

[dave thompson]

From where I sit it looks like this has been progressing for a some time now. It's always frustrating when I hear average Joes on thier Tuesday night ride say something like " I wish I could ride a real pro bike". Careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

The simple fact of the matter is that most folks on this forum ride bikes that are much better designed and built than most anything most of the pros are forced to ride.

Dave
Chapeau!

[Serotta PETE]

Obtuse, very well put and the old saying "Money talks" really has changed the frame!!!

Some of the fallout a few years from now is when these "pro" Chinese works of art start to fail. At least in the US, the consumer is use to riding the bikes forever with those lifetime warranties.......Change is coming>>>>>>>


Have a good wekend. PETE

[David Kirk]

Some of the fallout a few years from now is when these "pro" Chinese works of art start to fail. At least in the US, the consumer is use to riding the bikes forever with those lifetime warranties.......Change is coming>>>>>>>


PETE

I agree bu only to a degree. I can't tell you how many folks I've talked to over the years that tell me with pride that thier Brand X bike has failed 3 times but the warranty is so good that they keep giving him new ones. Well isn't that great? I suppose it's all part of the deal when the consumer is the R&D dept.

Dave

[Louis]

Another way of looking at it (from someone who knows next to nothing about racing):

If winning big races is important, then these "plastic Chinese things" can't be that much more inferior than anything else, because if they were, presumably someone else who really wanted to win, and was being prevented from doing so by inferior equipment, would switch to a non-plastic bike, win lots of races and make lots of headlines.

I think that the situation may not be quite as dire as stated.

Louis

[zeroking17]

1. Perhaps "brand x" frames should come with an expiration date, like cottage cheese.

2. This is why we should continue putting our money where are mouths are: the highly skilled and articulate frame builders on this forum will continue to thrive only so long as we continue to exchange our coins for their knowledge and products.

[Tom Byrnes]

Its a tribute to the small and slightly larger builders of steel and Ti bikes that are still making a living building REAL bikes , forget about all that plastic stuff. Heard mentaility as once the first maker went to China it was just a matter of time before they all got there. Sounds like Mexico after NAFTA . The jerk is right and the average Joe consumer is being taken for a ride. Praise to Serotta , Seven , Kirk , Vanilla , Zank , Goodrich , Calfee , Parlee , Sachs , and the rest of the clan out there. I tip my hat to you.

Encore.

Chapeau to all of the above-mentioned bike builders, and all those not specifically named (Tournesol, Weigle, Rivendell, Nagasawa, Mariposa, et. al.), who continually strive to achieve the highest standards in the design and construction of bicycles. A bicycle is one of the few items that I can think of that, in the right hands, can be a beautiful piece of functional, rolling art.

Tom

[spiderlake]

+1 on the 'Mats reference! I don't know about the rest since I've never owned a "plastic" bike but if it helps, I have learned to despise the look of a sloping top tube.

Back to watching Michigan State self-destruct...... again......

[Fat Robert]

they couldn't switch, because of the distinctive tube shapes, gussets, ISTs, and other design doodads that are the signature traits of the sponsor's bike.

careful eyes could see tchmil and tafi's c-40s under different paint in 2002 and 2003...and if someone on a team sponsored by Giant rode a dario-made machine, for instance, it would be pretty obvious, unless dario requested some oddball aluminum tubes that looked close to the carbon tubeset used in Giant's pro frames...you get the idea....

i like my scott -- its a good bike. its not a great bike. it wants to climb out of sweepers and the handling isn't quite super-dooper...i should have waited one more week, and bought the uncut 57 peg one of the nerac guys was getting rid of, but my crytal ball wasn't working that week...anyway, the scott is good enough, if i have the legs....

[Louis]

But racers don't have to be sponsored by deep-pockets shops like Giant. If the bikes from the small manufacturers are that much better at helping you win, why not be sponsored by the lesser outfit?

Richer looser, vs less rich winner. The choice seems clear to me.

Louis

[coylifut]

But racers don't have to be sponsored by deep-pockets shops like Giant. If the bikes from the small manufacturers are that much better at helping you win, why not be sponsored by the lesser outfit?

Richer looser, vs less rich winner. The choice seems clear to me.

Louis

I always thought that the bike sponsor paid a premium in cash as well as provided the bikes and comprise a portion of a pro tour team's budget. the team itself is a rolling bill board for the bike sponsor.

[djg]

Good post.

Now I have a headache, but at least I didn't haveta pay for it.

Of course, the way some folks ride bikes, it'd take some way curious geometry choices to be clear that we could blame the handling on the bike.

[David Kirk]

I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I don't feel that the poorly built pro bikes are really holding them back and that they'd be faster on a Serotta. We all know it's the legs, heart and lungs that make the things go. I'm just saying that they aren't finely crafted. As long as they fit (in some cases pretty debateable), have enough stiffness and they last until the finish line they will do well.

It's always been this way....in bikes, cars, skis etc. Most of what the pros use are considered disposable tools not finely crafted machines. One close look at most race cars will show this....and don't forget full on race room skis. ...fast but nasty.

Dave

[Kevan]

that the cf assault that every major manufacturer has brought on to the market would harm the likes of my favorite Calfee brand, a true quality product. I suppose I can relax some.

[jerk]

I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I don't feel that the poorly built pro bikes are really holding them back and that they'd be faster on a Serotta. We all know it's the legs, heart and lungs that make the things go. I'm just saying that they aren't finely crafted. As long as they fit (in some cases pretty debateable), have enough stiffness and they last until the finish line they will do well.

It's always been this way....in bikes, cars, skis etc. Most of what the pros use are considered disposable tools not finely crafted machines. One close look at most race cars will show this....and don't forget full on race room skis. ...fast but nasty.

Dave


that's the thing...that was the case but isn't any longer. some of these bikes do appreciably suck more shi'ite than other bikes. the geometries are unstable, the bikes don't track right, the balance is all screwed up and the torsional rigidity makes any race with hard corners or long descents sketchy....can one win on a badly designed bike; yup..but it is "easier" on a good bike....

i don't even care about longevity at all. a race bike manufacturer should be concerned about is performance. it's the whacked out geometries, lack of proper sizes and lack of stiffness that matters.


look at graham watson's pictures of the tt worldchampionships. almost everyone who had to pay for their bikes or didn't have serious cash and equipment sponsorship; women, espoir, u23 etc. were on re-badged walsers....the pros have to much at stake and were on inferior products for the most part; and a tt is where technology actually does play a quantifiable roll.

obtuse

[Frustration]

.

If it were as true as the "passionate" suggest, and production bikes were horrible enough that pro's were or were not able to perform, "the pro's" would simply not be on them.

No team manager would risk his own career or the other MAJOR sponsor dollars over equipement nearly as bad as some would imply...

There are quite a lot of good bikes in the protour. There are quite a lot of custom bikes in the protour...

Production bikes are simply quite a bit better than they were a decade ago and "special" things simply are not enough of an advantage to warrant the cost any longer. The teams get what they pay for and so, for the most part, do consumers...


And yes I know that's an overly general statement, but I want to keep with the thread theme...



Sure there are lots of production bikes that eliminate your ability to wax poetic about... That doesn't mean you can't use em to wax some a$$ with, and that's all a protour team cares about.



.

[David Kirk]

that's the thing...that was the case but isn't any longer. some of these bikes do appreciably suck more shi'ite than other bikes. the geometries are unstable, the bikes don't track right, the balance is all screwed up and the torsional rigidity makes any race with hard corners or long descents sketchy....can one win on a badly designed bike; yup..but it is "easier" on a good bike....

i don't even care about longevity at all. a race bike manufacturer should be concerned about is performance. it's the whacked out geometries, lack of proper sizes and lack of stiffness that matters.


look at graham watson's pictures of the tt worldchampionships. almost everyone who had to pay for their bikes or didn't have serious cash and equipment sponsorship; women, espoir, u23 etc. were on re-badged walsers....the pros have to much at stake and were on inferior products for the most part; and a tt is where technology actually does play a quantifiable roll.

obtuse

I can't find fault at all with this. It sounds like it's gotten worse over the last few years. I used to follow that market closely but now I don't bother at all.

Too bad about the bikes isn't it?

Dave

[Endless Goods]

Great post- I agree 100% with what obtuse said...

I love letting riding buddies try out my CDA- many of whom have been brainwashed to think they *NEED* a carbon fiber bike to be competitive.

Each and every time someone throw's a leg over my Serotta, their face immediately lights up. Almost universally they are shocked at how stiff yet comfortable the bike is.

My problem with the current offerings is that it takes more than decent geometry to make a high-end racing bicycle. Companies such as Serotta and e-Richie (TM) have figured out the "secret forumla" for that perfect ride...which is a lot more complicated than some poor sod gluing up fiber to order.

I think engineering-driven companies such as Cervelo are on the right track...we'll see if the QA improves on their contracted product.

[manet]

... like cottage cheese...


how's bout ricotta _ that way it could sweet or savory.

[swoop]

i was trying to say this in a different way. most of the bikes this year aren't about the rider.. the frame is just the final result of a manufacturing and distrubution process. the primary function of the bike and the real thinking goes into production/mass prduction issues and the relationship between the frame and the rider is secondary.
it needs to be the opposite.

[swoop]

don't get hung up on the paint. get hung up on the fact that a guy is willing to play with materials, fight against the way the industry is going but still play within the rules, make decisions that aren't influenced by anything other than his own limitations and desires, and know that this will only exist for a moment in time.

thank goodness there are others like (in all materials).

[1centaur]

every pro who bothers to think about it that i have talked to recently off the record, complains about the handling traits, the rigidity and the over-all ride of the bikes the sponsors put them on.

the new serotta hsg stuff is a great example. these bikes would kick the living crap out of 90% of what the pro-peloton is riding
obtuse

I neither want to be obtuse nor a jerk, and certainly don't wish to change my name, but I would like clarification.

Given prior quotes, I am guessing obtuse is saying current Chinese plastic bikes are not torsionally rigid enough. I am under the impression that Chinese plastic bikes are getting measurably stiffer in all sorts of way, surpassing the racing steel bikes of the past. They seem to be heading to the land of "too stiff," in fact. What am I missing?

As to geometry, as I have looked at geometry charts over the years I have not seen incredible changes. Maybe shorter chainstays, steeper seat tubes, higher BBs. Are those driving the bad handling traits obtuse observes, or is it something in the beloved front-center? Or is it the compacting of frames themselves? While I hate their look, I keep hearing racer boys appreciate their handling/stiffness so I am confused.

On overall ride I think I get that - Chinese plastic seems harsh, crude, loud compared to custom carbon from the best or older steel and better aluminum. Not fun to ride, therefore, but merely functional in a displeasing way. Am I on the right track for this part of the rant?

As for Serotta HSG, please elaborate. In what ways would HSG kick the stuffing out of 90% of current pro-peloton bikes?

Thank you.

[sg8357]

More Pegoretti from the fine folks at Fixedgeargallery....

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/reports/interbike2006/day2/43x1000.jpg

Dario Pegoretti does outsider art at Interbike ?

Start saving your nickles kids.

Question, will CPG make me fork and who could paint it ?

Scott G.

[Serpico]

okay, I hate to be a stickler :) but Dario's work isn't "outsider art"

outsider art is done by people who don't understand the protocols of the medium they're working in and unknowingly "break the rules"

outsider art can arrive at the same point as unconventional work, such as Dario's paint, but only by accident

outsider art is also known as naive art or folk art

/rant over

[catulle]

Er, are those "G" bars on Dario's bike...? :eek:

[mike p]

Love all dario's bikes but that paint job does nothing for me.

Mike

[djg]

okay, I hate to be a stickler :) but Dario's work isn't "outsider art"

outsider art is done by people who don't understand the protocols of the medium they're working in and unknowingly "break the rules"

outsider art can arrive at the same point as unconventional work, such as Dario's paint, but only by accident

outsider art is also known as naive art or folk art

/rant over

Yep. I think Dario's bike kills, but it's not outsider art. To pull this together with the Bal'mer thread--there's a museum in Baltimore called the American Visionary Art Museum, which aims to specialize in "outsider" art. I went to a very pleasant wedding reception there. Strolling about amidst the white wine and snacks, one piece really stood out--a mixed media picture (some heavy texture, but wall hung and imagistic), by a homeless woman, the last listed element of which was "mummified cat." More satay sir?

[manet]

whatever

1) http://www.johnseed.com/areply.html

2) "The only thing the market liked better than a hot young artist was a dead hot young artist, and it got one in Jean-Michel Basquiat, whose working life of about nine years was truncated by a heroin overdose at the age of twenty-seven. His career, both actual and posthumous, appealed to a cluster of toxic vulgarities. First, the racist idea of the black as naif or rhythmic innocent, and of the black artist as "instinctual," someone outside "mainstream" culture and therefore not to be rated in its terms: a wild pet for the recently cultivated collector. Second, a fetish about the freshness of youth, blooming among the discos of the East Side scene. Third, guilt and political correctness, which made curators and collectors nervous about judging the work of any black artist who could be presented as a "victim." Fourth, art-investment mania. And last, the audience's goggling appetite for self-destructive talent: Pollock, Montgomery Clift. All this gunk rolled into a sticky ball around Basquiat's tiny talent and produced a reputation.
"Basquiat's career was incubated by the short-lived graffiti movement, which started on the streets and subway cars in the early 1970s, peaked, fell out of view, began all over again in the 1980s, peaked again, and finally receded, leaving Basquiat and the amusingly facile Keith Haring as its only memorable exponents. Unlike Haring, however, Basquiat never tagged the subways. The son of middle-class Brooklyn parents, he had a precocious success with his paintings from the start. The key was not that they were "primitive," but that they were so arty. Stylistically, they were pastiches of older artists he admired: Cy Twombly, Jean Dubuffet. Having no art training, he never tried to deal with the real world through drawing; he could only scribble and jot, rehearsing his own stereotypes, his pictorial nouns for "face" or "body" over and over again. Consequently, though Basquiat's images look quite vivid and sharp at first sight, and though from time to time he could bring off an intriguing passage of spiky marks or a brisk clash of blaring color, the work quickly settles into the visual monotony of arid overstyling. Its relentless fortissimo is wearisome. Critics made much of Basquiat's use of sources: vagrant code-symbols, quotes from Leonardo or Gray's Anatomy, African bushman art or Egyptian murals. But these were so scattered, so lacking in plastic force or conceptual interest, that they seem mere browsing - homeless representation.
"The claims made for Basquiat were absurd and already seem like period pieces. 'Since slavery and oppression under white supremacy are visible subtexts in Basquiat's work ,' intoned one essayist in the catalog to his posthumous retrospective at the Whitney Museum, 'he is as close to Goya as American painting has ever produced.' Another extolled his 'punishing regime of self-abuse' as part of 'the disciplines imposed by the principle of inverse asceticism to which he was so resolutely committed.' Inverse asceticism, apparently, is PC-speak for addiction. There was much more in, so to speak, this vein. But the effort to promote Basquiat into an all-purpose inflatable martyr-figure, the Little Black Rimbaud of American painting, remains unconvincing."

- From "American Visions", by Robert Hughes

[manet]

Yep. I think Dario's bike kills, but it's not outsider art. To pull this together with the Bal'mer thread--there's a museum in Baltimore called the American Visionary Art Museum, which aims to specialize in "outsider" art. I went to a very pleasant wedding reception there. Strolling about amidst the white wine and snacks, one piece really stood out--a mixed media picture (some heavy texture, but wall hung and imagistic), by a homeless woman, the last listed element of which was "mummified cat." More satay sir?

perhaps the best, + known:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Bess

http://www.forrestbess.org/

[Jason E]

I neither want to be obtuse nor a jerk, and certainly don't wish to change my name, but I would like clarification.

Given prior quotes, I am guessing obtuse is saying current Chinese plastic bikes are not torsionally rigid enough. I am under the impression that Chinese plastic bikes are getting measurably stiffer in all sorts of way, surpassing the racing steel bikes of the past. They seem to be heading to the land of "too stiff," in fact. What am I missing?

As to geometry, as I have looked at geometry charts over the years I have not seen incredible changes. Maybe shorter chainstays, steeper seat tubes, higher BBs. Are those driving the bad handling traits obtuse observes, or is it something in the beloved front-center? Or is it the compacting of frames themselves? While I hate their look, I keep hearing racer boys appreciate their handling/stiffness so I am confused.

On overall ride I think I get that - Chinese plastic seems harsh, crude, loud compared to custom carbon from the best or older steel and better aluminum. Not fun to ride, therefore, but merely functional in a displeasing way. Am I on the right track for this part of the rant?

As for Serotta HSG, please elaborate. In what ways would HSG kick the stuffing out of 90% of current pro-peloton bikes?

Thank you.

I, too, would like some elaboration/insight. Thanks.

Good points, 1Centaur.

Jason

[J.Greene]

most of the bikes this year aren't about the rider.. the frame is just the final result of a manufacturing and distrubution process. the primary function of the bike and the real thinking goes into production/mass prduction issues and the relationship between the frame and the rider is secondary.
it needs to be the opposite.


TRUTH!!!!!!!!

JG

[NAHBS]

i bought a headache.

obtuse


I would have gone with "hangin downtown"

Bus stop, pimps and whores
Liquor stores, Seventh Street, Sixth street
Bus stop, bus stop, bus stop, bus stop, bus stop
Anyway, I ain't got no place else to go

I know there is a movement to get Interbike the hell out of Vegas, but as long as the company that runs Interbike makes millions on the show, they will continue to stay in Vegas.

Now, this is a thought...as dearly as I love the Mats, how bout a little something that might be more appropriate...

From the Circle Jerks...

we just get by
however we can
we all gotta duck
when the sh*t hits the fan

the bikes being the sh*t....

DW

[justinf]

the paint is awesome.
diametrically opposed to the chinese crap that spawned the thread.

[Grant McLean]

arts&crafts... Brooks booth at Interbike:

[steelisreal]

I, too, would like some elaboration/insight. Thanks.

Good points, 1Centaur.

Jason
Me Three

[cs124]

that's the thing...that was the case but isn't any longer. some of these bikes do appreciably suck more shi'ite than other bikes. the geometries are unstable, the bikes don't track right, the balance is all screwed up and the torsional rigidity makes any race with hard corners or long descents sketchy....can one win on a badly designed bike; yup..but it is "easier" on a good bike....

<snip>
obtuse

examples please...

...c'mon, name names ;)

[obtuse]

I neither want to be obtuse nor a jerk, and certainly don't wish to change my name, but I would like clarification.

Given prior quotes, I am guessing obtuse is saying current Chinese plastic bikes are not torsionally rigid enough. I am under the impression that Chinese plastic bikes are getting measurably stiffer in all sorts of way, surpassing the racing steel bikes of the past. They seem to be heading to the land of "too stiff," in fact. What am I missing?

As to geometry, as I have looked at geometry charts over the years I have not seen incredible changes. Maybe shorter chainstays, steeper seat tubes, higher BBs. Are those driving the bad handling traits obtuse observes, or is it something in the beloved front-center? Or is it the compacting of frames themselves? While I hate their look, I keep hearing racer boys appreciate their handling/stiffness so I am confused.

On overall ride I think I get that - Chinese plastic seems harsh, crude, loud compared to custom carbon from the best or older steel and better aluminum. Not fun to ride, therefore, but merely functional in a displeasing way. Am I on the right track for this part of the rant?

As for Serotta HSG, please elaborate. In what ways would HSG kick the stuffing out of 90% of current pro-peloton bikes?

Thank you.

wow 1centaur a lot of questions and i'll do my best to answer them in order:

[/QUOTE]I am under the impression that Chinese plastic bikes are getting measurably stiffer in all sorts of way, surpassing the racing steel bikes of the past. They seem to be heading to the land of "too stiff," in fact. What am I missing?[/QUOTE]

this is true when one is speaking of bottom bracket stiffness for the most part. i for one, have found very few bikes ever lacking in bottom bracket stiffness...most of the time the wheels, or the chainrings are more of the culprit for any type of chain rub.....in this area the chinese plastic bikes are fine. where they tend to be lacking is in stiffness from the front to the back...they could probably get away with it if the bike wasn't so horizontally stiff and the drivetrain of the bike wasn't so overbuilt....

[/QUOTE]As to geometry, as I have looked at geometry charts over the years I have not seen incredible changes. Maybe shorter chainstays, steeper seat tubes, higher BBs. Are those driving the bad handling traits obtuse observes, or is it something in the beloved front-center? Or is it the compacting of frames themselves? While I hate their look, I keep hearing racer boys appreciate their handling/stiffness so I am confused.[/QUOTE]

no there are not incredible changes- except when it comes to two areas....the front ends, in which trail, front center and rake have all become mostly irrellevent measurements or at best result from designing a 56cm bike and making sure the molds and parts will work on all the other bikes. the other and most important area is in the lack of custom frames....most pro cyclists can ride a stock frame but given their size, specializations, riding styles and the given course, a custom built frame will handle better, ride better and require less attention from the cyclist. please note, it will not fit better...the fit measurements can be achieved on virtually any stock bike as long as it comes in a few sizes. other than being either enchanted or dis-enchanted with the look, compact frames can be as great or as horrible as traditional frames. "racer boys" appreciate free equipment. pro racers if they are young may not know any better.....old racers are often so numb they don't even notice....but many do. plus every pro officially is riding the best bicycle in the world untill the contract expires.

[/QUOTE]On overall ride I think I get that - Chinese plastic seems harsh, crude, loud compared to custom carbon from the best or older steel and better aluminum. Not fun to ride, therefore, but merely functional in a displeasing way. Am I on the right track for this part of the rant?[/QUOTE]

yes, although there is one caveat; you'd be much better off with a chinese plastic bike with proper frame design than you'd be on the best hand crafted carbon/steel/aluminum bike designed by someone who just doesn't get it. hence a pinarello chinese carbon f4:13 rides and handles much better than some lighter and cheaper and better equipped carbon bikes from some other manufacturers although it's clearly not quite as refined a ride as their italian made models.

[stevep]

i object to this line.
in my experience very few pros find their equipment disagreeable...and only a very bad pro would blame his bike for lack of results.
these bikes are all raceable and almost every one of these manufacturers are capable of making custom stuff for top level riders if necessary. if paolo bettini wants his specialized next year to fit this way or to ride that way... it will. its not that difficult and beyond that he wont complain about it and he will win the races that he can... same as this year.
on this forum we are all various degree of enthusiast. we know a little about bikes but we get caught up in rather meaningless details and minor but insignificant points of interest. this stuff does not bother good racers very much. they might like the custom colnago best but scott or cervelo or some other chinese manufacturer can come pretty close to making a similar bike.
boonens a huge dude who can generate 1500+ watts... time needed to overbuild him a frame..they did. he won a bunch of races. no big deal. specialized will do the same in 07..he will win some races.
bettinis a small dude who can pull out a trick in the toughest races. he' ll do the same next season on some fool looking swooping curvey specialized junk box. he does not care.... but the bike wont be the one you buy for $1,800 complete, either ...despite what the ads say.
its an advertisement when these guys are pictured on these bikes. it attaches to the egos of the companies represented...and points in the direction that the company wishes to move...and it is determined by the amount of $$$ the company wishes to spend...like nike paying some basketball player 5 mil a year to wear nike.

"its not about the bike company" . its about the money.
the bike has no claiming rights in results.
nor should it.

[obtuse]

i object to this line.
in my experience very few pros find their equipment disagreeable...and only a very bad pro would blame his bike for lack of results.
these bikes are all raceable and almost every one of these manufacturers are capable of making custom stuff for top level riders if necessary. if paolo bettini wants his specialized next year to fit this way or to ride that way... it will. its not that difficult and beyond that he wont complain about it and he will win the races that he can... same as this year.
on this forum we are all various degree of enthusiast. we know a little about bikes but we get caught up in rather meaningless details and minor but insignificant points of interest. this stuff does not bother good racers very much. they might like the custom colnago best but scott or cervelo or some other chinese manufacturer can come pretty close to making a similar bike.
boonens a huge dude who can generate 1500+ watts... time needed to overbuild him a frame..they did. he won a bunch of races. no big deal. specialized will do the same in 07..he will win some races.
bettinis a small dude who can pull out a trick in the toughest races. he' ll do the same next season on some fool looking swooping curvey specialized junk box. he does not care.... but the bike wont be the one you buy for $1,800 complete, either ...despite what the ads say.
its an advertisement when these guys are pictured on these bikes. it attaches to the egos of the companies represented...and points in the direction that the company wishes to move...and it is determined by the amount of $$$ the company wishes to spend...like nike paying some basketball player 5 mil a year to wear nike.

"its not about the bike company" . its about the money.
the bike has no claiming rights in results.
nor should it.

talk to the gerolsteiner guys about their bikes. shi'ite equipment doesn't hurt; but it doesn't help and while time has the ability to make a special bike for boonen; specialized does not; at least not something that looks anything like what they "should" be riding. the production model does not allow for that.


obtuse

[stevep]

i think we'll get to see as i believe you will see them on specialized next season.
large money on the table will buy out times contract for 07/8.
and i think they will be able to build them pretty look alike race bikes they they can live with.

note that at the show specialized tried to buy out obtuces racing contract for 2 beers and a shimano hat but obtuce was holding out for another beer and a colnago hat when i left the bar at midnight.
we'll see if they came to an agreement.

[Chris]

I thought those guys were going to be on Cannondales next year...

[Jason E]

I thought those guys were going to be on Cannondales next year...

+1, this is what I had heard, also.

As for next years racing contracts, I had a bunch of offers to not be seen on particular bikes.

By that I mean they offered me money not to be seen with their equipment. :rolleyes:

Fat F*&^ing Jay

[stevep]

the last day of the show obtuce was walking around with a specialized jacket, hat, gloves, shoes and free ride pants.
i have to believe that it was the lap dance that finally brought him around,
but you will have to hear it from him.

i thk that spec has outbid cannondale for this team.
not a done deal yet, but that is likely.

[mike p]

"almost every one of these manufacturers are capable of making custom stuff for top level riders if necessary"

I believe bike company's that use carbon fiber tubes ( tube and glue) can make custom with little problem. Company's that use molds are another story. And co's that use molds often have a unique look that would make it hard for a "dario" to make a frame that still lools like the sponsors.

Mike

[swoop]

I thought those guys were going to be on Cannondales next year...


nope. cannondale wanted to have their name on the jersey. that was the deal killer. specialized had already been talking to them. museeuw's personal rig is a specialized so contrary to the jerk's opionion they are well thought of over there.. and having more than a million bucks to buy out time didn't hurt either..

[jerk]

nope. cannondale wanted to have their name on the jersey. that was the deal killer. specialized had already been talking to them. museeuw's personal rig is a specialized so contrary to the jerk's opionion they are well thought of over there.. and having more than a million bucks to buy out time didn't hurt either..


contrary to popular opinion johan museeuw doesn't give a shi'ite what he rides.

obtuse

[Big Dan]

I saw a werewolf drinking a Piña Colada at Trader Vic's
And his hair was perfect.

:)

[swoop]

contrary to popular opinion johan museeuw doesn't give a shi'ite what he rides.

obtuse

well... i'm talking from the horses mouth. but yuh. it aint rocket science. ligget likes his!

there is no accounting for taste. that i give you!

[swoop]

contrary to popular opinion johan museeuw doesn't give a shi'ite what he rides.

obtuse


but you have to understand.. time purchased the rights... and then is selling them. it aint about the bike.. it's business. they could be shwinn stingrays as long as the cash was there.

[jerk]

but you have to understand.. time purchased the rights... and then is selling them. it aint about the bike.. it's business. they could be shwinn stingrays as long as the cash was there.

i know. that's what i'm saying. of course it's business....but tell me the last time a pro got a special bike for a special race...or the last time cancellera had the angles of his custom bike altered due to his large hips and shoulders?
he's riding the same thing as carlos sastre it just has a longer top tube...and i think the r3 is one of the "good" production bikes....at least it doesn't flex all ove the place along the top tube.
the overall quality of the bike in the peloton has sunk as the dollars required for sponsorship have increased. it doesn't matter in terms of results but it does suck for the development of high-end road bikes in the industry....if the small guys who are the true innovators retreat further from pro-racing...innovation will slow down and that sucks.

example- you, who are not a frame builder, nor a bike designer nor a person with years and years of tradition, knowledge and experience of building pro road bikes
had to tell seven cycles exactly how to build your bike; because they have no idea how to buld a proper racing bicycle; its not their fault....but a couple of generations away from the peloton will the same be the case for the colnagos, pinarellos, de rosas, etc. of the world?

will the choice be cheap shoddy shi'ite boxes or expensive well-made shi'ite boxes?

obtuse

[davids]

...I wander off to look at mountian bikes for a few minutes, and the jerk shows up.

[stevep]

i know. that's what i'm saying. of course it's business....but tell me the last time a pro got a special bike for a special race...or the last time cancellera had the angles of his custom bike altered due to his large hips and shoulders?
he's riding the same thing as carlos sastre it just has a longer top tube...and i think the r3 is one of the "good" production bikes....at least it doesn't flex all ove the place along the top tube.
the overall quality of the bike in the peloton has sunk as the dollars required for sponsorship have increased. it doesn't matter in terms of results but it does suck for the development of high-end road bikes in the industry....if the small guys who are the true innovators retreat further from pro-racing...innovation will slow down and that sucks.

example- you, who are not a frame builder, nor a bike designer nor a person with years and years of tradition, knowledge and experience of building pro road bikes
had to tell seven cycles exactly how to build your bike; because they have no idea how to buld a proper racing bicycle; its not their fault....but a couple of generations away from the peloton will the same be the case for the colnagos, pinarellos, de rosas, etc. of the world?

will the choice be cheap shoddy shi'ite boxes or expensive well-made shi'ite boxes?

obtuse

c'mon craig..its just a bike. cancellara does not care what they give him... he would shrug and as long as his check cleared he would say..." best bike i have ever ridden,..." same as any of these guys.
you will be crying next year when bettini wins lbl and the tour of lombardy on a specialized ... but be sure that spec will build him something that he can ride. be sure of it.
think michael jordan cared what shoes he wore? nah. they would build him what he wanted. did not matter what the label says.

[obtuse]

c'mon craig..its just a bike. cancellara does not care what they give him... he would shrug and as long as his check cleared he would say..." best bike i have ever ridden,..." same as any of these guys.
you will be crying next year when bettini wins lbl and the tour of lombardy on a specialized ... but be sure that spec will build him something that he can ride. be sure of it.
think michael jordan cared what shoes he wore? nah. they would build him what he wanted. did not matter what the label says.


i know they don't care. that's not my point. my point is that the bikes currently raced in the pro peloton are worse than they ought to be and that pro racing is not driving high end bike design.

maybe canellara won't care. maybe he will. cipo's specializeds while he was at a&s looked nothing like anything they sold. i just think that the marketing involves not only logos and decals but frame shapes as well....i'll bet you a wheel of cheese specialized has figured that out and both boonen and bettini will be on stock specialized frames....it's too tough to make something special and custom look like their proprietary shapes....i'm just not sure these companies are building what the michael jordans of the bike riding game "want"....specialized didn't for gerolsteiner...trek didn't for anyone except lance, giant didn't for t-mobile etc. time did, colnago does, pinarello does,

i know it doesn't make a difference and these guys'll complain less about a bike they don't like than a breakfast they don't like....but it ain't fun to talk about the merits of cold pasta versus muesli for a pre-race meal.

feel me bub?

obtuse

[samtaylor1]

I know that aren't at interbike- too big now, but I was listening to the designers at Trek talk about the Madone and I was very impressed. It also rides "pretty" good for the short distance I rode one- too big to buy one. my size makes me got to go custom- I do enjoy it. If I could though, I would buy a Madone 5.2. Trek puts more money into their design (because the can) then anyone- also made in the US.

Also, it seems that this thread is ignoring a fundamental fact of the free market. As more people get into biking (A GOOD THING) on a "good" though not great "chinese" bikes (your first bike should not cost the $1000s of dollars the bikes we love cost) these people will graduate into wanting better bikes, which is good for the custom bike makers of the world, as well as Trek, cannondale, specialized, etc.. It is all about demand.

[swoop]

being sponsored can really really suck. i do feel bad for some of those guys i was just wndering today how bettini and boonen could fit on a stock frame...

[A.L.Breguet]

I don't know if this matters or not, but IBME that manyof the improvements in pro bikes have been at least partly consumer driven. Does any one else remember the crap paint jobs that used to come on "pro" bikes in the 70's and 80's? Show me a Benotto from that era with all of its paint. I had all of the decals on a Colnago Super fall off in a month. Another Colnago I had was bubbled and orange peeled almost immediately. Peugeots were notoriously inconsistent in the paint department. It is my understanding that the demands of the U.S. consumer market drove the improvement in finish quality of these bikes that had been traditionally seen as "tools" by the pros.
Now, the prices are a hell of a lot higher. Well out stripping overall inflation.

I like my Six13.

[obtuse]

being sponsored can really really suck. i do feel bad for some of those guys i was just wndering today how bettini and boonen could fit on a stock frame...


is this a joke or are you all serious and stuff?

obtuse

[stevep]

is this a joke or are you all serious and stuff?

obtuse

c,
hes busting your balls.
just trying to help here.
s

[obtuse]

c,
hes busting your balls.
just trying to help here.
s


i know.

muesli is a much better breakfast than cold pasta.

thoughts?

[swoop]

is this a joke or are you all serious and stuff?

obtuse


looking at the stock geometry.. bettini is screwed on a tarmac! they can't make those things custom.

[stevep]

this goes back to some past thread where we talked about the fact that race bikes will in the future be made in factories and disassociated from the gurus that we have all grown to know and appreciate.
these bikes are way lighter and they are not likely to be displaced by anything artisan made.
im not saying that this is a bad thing...more like it is a fact that we have to live with. these carbon bikes are light and can be made into very good race bikes. there is no mystery to it. it can and will be done by chinese factories in due time. a little experience is what is needed.
these guys have only been building these things for a few years, needs some development time.
remember how terrible the early titanium frames were? they were pathetic... after 6-7 years they developed into pretty good stuff... carbon in these factories is not much different...will take awhile.
there is still a market for artisan crafted bikes as well noted on this forum. and there is not a single doubt that there are guys on this forum riding 8spd steel bikes that could kick some serious butt...
but pro tour bikes will be carbon fiber for some time to come and those chinese will sooner or later make a pro quality bike as good or better than a colnago/ time/ etc.
not yet..but soon enough.

[obtuse]

i object to this line.
in my experience very few pros find their equipment disagreeable...and only a very bad pro would blame his bike for lack of results.
these bikes are all raceable and almost every one of these manufacturers are capable of making custom stuff for top level riders if necessary. if paolo bettini wants his specialized next year to fit this way or to ride that way... it will. its not that difficult and beyond that he wont complain about it and he will win the races that he can... same as this year.
on this forum we are all various degree of enthusiast. we know a little about bikes but we get caught up in rather meaningless details and minor but insignificant points of interest. this stuff does not bother good racers very much. they might like the custom colnago best but scott or cervelo or some other chinese manufacturer can come pretty close to making a similar bike.
boonens a huge dude who can generate 1500+ watts... time needed to overbuild him a frame..they did. he won a bunch of races. no big deal. specialized will do the same in 07..he will win some races.
bettinis a small dude who can pull out a trick in the toughest races. he' ll do the same next season on some fool looking swooping curvey specialized junk box. he does not care.... but the bike wont be the one you buy for $1,800 complete, either ...despite what the ads say.
its an advertisement when these guys are pictured on these bikes. it attaches to the egos of the companies represented...and points in the direction that the company wishes to move...and it is determined by the amount of $$$ the company wishes to spend...like nike paying some basketball player 5 mil a year to wear nike.

"its not about the bike company" . its about the money.
the bike has no claiming rights in results.
nor should it.

i don't think you understand what i'm saying...here's some fodder for you steve:

in my experience very few pros find their equipment disagreeable...

true....but more do now than ever before. when small builders made custom frames for each individual rider most riders were fine with that. the ones who weren't would have their favorite builder build'em something that looked close enough. now when a big bike manufacturer builds stock frames in six sizes and hands them out most riders are fine with that. the ones aren't just aren't.

and only a very bad pro would blame his bike for lack of results.
it's never the bike that's responsible. the winner would win on anything unless it breaks. although van petegem did once say that he would have had a better season had he not been riding the worst bike in the peloton back a few bike teams ago for the old guy....

these bikes are all raceable and almost every one of these manufacturers are capable of making custom stuff for top level riders if necessary. if paolo bettini wants his specialized next year to fit this way or to ride that way... it will. its not that difficult and beyond that he wont complain about it and he will win the races that he can... same as this year.
they are capable of making custom stuff but given the shaping of their top of the line bikes they are trying to sell, they won't be able to do it given the manufacturing process. they will not put bettini or boonen on something that doesn't look like what i sell and joe consumer can buy. time's method of construction easily allowed for made to measure frames....the taiwanese/chinese made carbon frames do not allow for that.

my suspicion is that management will force paolo and tom to ride stock frames that the sponsor gives them...just like cervelo does for csc....

boonens a huge dude who can generate 1500+ watts... time needed to overbuild him a frame..they did. he won a bunch of races. no big deal. specialized will do the same in 07..he will win some races.
i don't think they will. they can't do it and have it look like the thing they sell...the construction method doesn't allow for it....that being said you're right he will win some races regardless the same or more as he would have won on anything else.


its an advertisement when these guys are pictured on these bikes. it attaches to the egos of the companies represented...and points in the direction that the company wishes to move...and it is determined by the amount of $$$ the company wishes to spend...like nike paying some basketball player 5 mil a year to wear nike.

exactly, the brand is the frame shape not just the decal....they'll be riding stock bikes.

obtuse

[stevep]

no, i hear you.
i think they will build custom bikes and shape them like the stock bikes.
thats what i reckon...then they can call them stock.
all that stuff can be hand made easily.
i would even ride one if they paid me $200k a year..
actually, maybe not... but for $300k i certainly would.

[obtuse]

no, i hear you.
i think they will build custom bikes and shape them like the stock bikes.
thats what i reckon...then they can call them stock.
all that stuff can be hand made easily.
i would even ride one if they paid me $200k a year..
actually, maybe not... but for $300k i certainly would.


tell you what-

i'll ride one of those crummy time vxyz things that aren't good enough for boonen anymore for free. just bring it by the shop on a sunday when the boss is away. otherwise harold will sell it for a very high margin even for him.

[stevep]

you're on.

[sspielman]

I find it a little ironic that the biggest teams with the biggest name riders are the ones that are most likely to be sponsored by one of the mega-corporate bike makers whose Asian frames can't be easily made in a custom configuration. There may be a few more exceptions than we might think, though. Cyfac is doing alot of custom carbon these days...and they have the capability to copy alot of designs (within reason, of course). I'm sure there are others as well. As an example, a few years back when Team Once was around and were sponsored by Giant, I had a chance to get a good close look at the team bikes. Supposedly, the frames were offered in 4 sizes....but I measured 7(!) sizes...who knows how many others there were as well. SOMEBODY (Giant or other) was making custom carbon frames for the team that looked ALOT like the Giants....

[atmo]

Doctor in Brooklyn: Why are you depressed, Alvy?
Alvy's Mom: Tell Dr. Flicker.
(Young Alvy sits, his head down - his mother answers for him)
Alvy's Mom: It's something he read.
Doctor in Brooklyn: Something he read, huh?
Alvy at 9: [his head still down] The universe is expanding.
Doctor in Brooklyn: The universe is expanding?
Alvy at 9: Well, the universe is everything, and if it's expanding, someday it will break apart and that would be the end of everything!
Alvy's Mom: What is that your business?
(she turns back to the doctor)
Alvy's Mom: He stopped doing his homework!
Alvy at 9: What's the point?
Alvy's Mom: What has the universe got to do with it? You're here in Brooklyn! Brooklyn is not expanding!
Doctor in Brooklyn: It won't be expanding for billions of years yet, Alvy. And we've gotta try to enjoy ourselves while we're here!

[oldguy00]

although van petegem did once say that he would have had a better season had he not been riding the worst bike in the peloton back a few bike teams ago for the old guy....

obtuse

Litespeed? Decathlon?

[Tom Kellogg]

- Most of the reports of Pro Tour riders being unhappy with CF bikes is in fact true. At the same time, a contract between a Pro Tour team and a bicycle manufacturer involves about 70 to 125 bikes a year and a minimum of about 500,000.00 cash sponsorship for the less talented teams. The top teams get multiples of that. The folks who indeed make the best bikes in the world simply can't pull that off. After talking with a few Pro Tour riders, it is clear that the riders would love to ride the really good stuff, and in fact some of them do train off season on excellent bikes, but they do work for a living and the Pro Tour team sponsorship market is what it is...

- There is only one domestic based US pro team who had NO frame failures this season. They rode on titanium. A Ti manufacturer who sponsors a pro team has much higher up front costs since Ti frames cost much more to produce than CF frames do, but by the end of the season, the mechanics are MUCH happier and the replacement costs are minimal at the most. Figure it this way, a manufacturer pays somewhere around 250.00 to import a high end CF frame from China. A high end Ti frame costs a domestic builder somewhere around 1400.00 to produce. Even at a seasonal replacement rate of two to three for one, (typical) the CF sponsor is ahead. The good stuff is expensive... and the good manufacturers just don't have the money. Ah, the market...

[bostondrunk]

- Most of the reports of Pro Tour riders being unhappy with CF bikes is in fact true. At the same time, a contract between a Pro Tour team and a bicycle manufacturer involves about 70 to 125 bikes a year and a minimum of about 500,000.00 cash sponsorship for the less talented teams. The top teams get multiples of that. The folks who indeed make the best bikes in the world simply can't pull that off. After talking with a few Pro Tour riders, it is clear that the riders would love to ride the really good stuff, and in fact some of them do train off season on excellent bikes, but they do work for a living and the Pro Tour team sponsorship market is what it is...

- There is only one domestic based US pro team who had NO frame failures this season. They rode on titanium. A Ti manufacturer who sponsors a pro team has much higher up front costs since Ti frames cost much more to produce than CF frames do, but by the end of the season, the mechanics are MUCH happier and the replacement costs are minimal at the most. Figure it this way, a manufacturer pays somewhere around 250.00 to import a high end CF frame from China. A high end Ti frame costs a domestic builder somewhere around 1400.00 to produce. Even at a seasonal replacement rate of two to three for one, (typical) the CF sponsor is ahead. The good stuff is expensive... and the good manufacturers just don't have the money. Ah, the market...

Who is this bum, and what does he know???



;)

[Big Dan]

Who is this bum, and what does he know???



;)



:eek:

[manet]

voice of reason

[saab2000]

This is a good thread.

With all this talk of what the pros like and don't like I want names named. I do trust the opinion of the Jerk and the opinion of Obtuse. They almost sound the same.......

Anyway, the general consensus is that a Time or Colnago is a great race bike. Same would go for a Meivici.

Where do Treks stand? Cannondale System6? (Which I want)

The implication is that Specialized is bad. Bad geometry and bad stiffness.

The people here who know a lot more than I do insinuate, but don't name names.

Which ones suck and which ones don't? Inquiring minds want to know.

PS - Seven is really jumping the shark with that thing. It is truly grotesque.

[sspielman]

I read that Ridley will be offering a limited number of EXACT REPLICAS of Robbie MacEwen's Lotto Davitamon Ridley Noah for sale to the public....so the average Joe can have precisely the same equipment with which Robbie is dissatisfied!

[saab2000]

I read that Ridley will be offering a limited number of EXACT REPLICAS of Robbie MacEwen's Lotto Davitamon Ridley Noah for sale to the public....so the average Joe can have precisely the same equipment with which Robbie is dissatisfied!

I wish I could ride a wheely like Robbie McEwen. I tried it once and ended up right on my back. BMX bikes are great for wheelies. Racing bikes are not!!!

[catulle]

Doctor in Brooklyn: Why are you depressed, Alvy?
Alvy's Mom: Tell Dr. Flicker.
(Young Alvy sits, his head down - his mother answers for him)
Alvy's Mom: It's something he read.
Doctor in Brooklyn: Something he read, huh?
Alvy at 9: [his head still down] The universe is expanding.
Doctor in Brooklyn: The universe is expanding?
Alvy at 9: Well, the universe is everything, and if it's expanding, someday it will break apart and that would be the end of everything!
Alvy's Mom: What is that your business?
(she turns back to the doctor)
Alvy's Mom: He stopped doing his homework!
Alvy at 9: What's the point?
Alvy's Mom: What has the universe got to do with it? You're here in Brooklyn! Brooklyn is not expanding!
Doctor in Brooklyn: It won't be expanding for billions of years yet, Alvy. And we've gotta try to enjoy ourselves while we're here!

That wasn't Alvy. That was Einstein at Princeton; which is why he had so many women. Alvy, well, Alvy has a sect in Utah now. Some of us are just afraid to face the facts. The Universe is expanding...!

[atmo]

That wasn't Alvy. That was Einstein at Princeton; which is why he had so many women. Alvy, well, Alvy has a sect in Utah now. Some of us are just afraid to face the facts. The Universe is expanding...!
expansion is under-rated atmo.
water seeks its own level.

[manet]

water seeks its own level.

bubble-boy

[atmo]

bubble-boy


atmo (http://www.myvitabath.com/?engine=adwords!4614&keyword=vitabath&match_type=)

[manet]

and then for ladies nite _ spirit level cuff-links:















atmo (http://www.myvitabath.com/?engine=adwords!4614&keyword=vitabath&match_type=)

[atmo]

and then for ladies nite _ spirit level cuff-links:
it's always ladies nite atmo

[jerk]

it's always ladies nite atmo
i like straight night at the gay bar.

[swoop]

the guys like their noahs. some pros know bikes, some don't have a clue. some have never ridden a decent bike and wouldn't know. some have decent bikes and know a lot. most of them don't have the choice yo do on this forum. some do.


seven isn't jumping the shark. they are playing the carbon custom game but really just beleive in ti. they are playing a carbon hand but live and die by ti. they had more people in their booth looking at the carbon bikes than i expected them to.

interbike had over 3000 participants... which means the industry is doing well. you can get custom in every material and philosophy. there is more crap than ever but there is also more good to choose from.
the consumer drives the market. even low end bikes weigh close to 16lbs.
back in the day plenty of pros had to ride very crap bikes.. unless you had the cash or were the team leader and could have something bespoke.

smaller teams have better gear than they used to. and the consumer usually is better kitted out than a pro.

[jerk]

the guys like their noahs. some pros know bikes, some don't have a clue. some have never ridden a decent bike and wouldn't know. some have decent bikes and know a lot. most of them don't have the choice yo do on this forum. some do.


seven isn't jumping the shark. they are playing the carbon custom game but really just beleive in ti. they are playing a carbon hand but live and die by ti. they had more people in their booth looking at the carbon bikes than i expected them to.

interbike had over 3000 participants... which means the industry is doing well. you can get custom in every material and philosophy. there is more crap than ever but there is also more good to choose from.
the consumer drives the market. even low end bikes weigh close to 16lbs.
back in the day plenty of pros had to ride very crap bikes.. unless you had the cash or were the team leader and could have something bespoke.

smaller teams have better gear than they used to. and the consumer usually is better kitted out than a pro.


but not better looking; and that's what matters.

obtuse

[e-RICHIE]

this is why (http://www.hcibooks.com/digitalservices/images/1558749462.jpg) sinatra matters atmo -

[obtuse]

i like straight night at the gay bar.


gay bars are the new straight bars.

obtuse

[manet]

oh what a nite










it's always ladies nite atmo

[e-RICHIE]

gay bars are the new straight bars.

obtuse
atmo (http://www.jek2004.com/1126-purple-passion.jpg)

[manet]

but not better looking; and that's what matters.

obtuse

eki dress his dog in ladies undies?

[swoop]

gay bars are the new straight bars.

obtuse


go look at the pic of my bike in the custom section and then would you be so kind as to put some sunblock on my back. i can't reach.
i know. so gay but so gay.

[swoop]

one correction.. some of them are paying millions.

[chrisroph]

contrary to popular opinion johan museeuw doesn't give a shi'ite what he rides.

obtuse

A few years back, didn't he complain about his ernesto and then praise his eddy?

[swoop]

yup.

[obtuse]

A few years back, didn't he complain about his ernesto and then praise his eddy?


yeah, that was the drugs talking. seriously though, johan liked his eddy better than his colnago because that was what he was paid to like better...now he's paid to like specialized better so it's better.

imho bro,

obtuse

[chrisroph]

yeah, that was the drugs talking. seriously though, johan liked his eddy better than his colnago because that was what he was paid to like better...now he's paid to like specialized better so it's better.

imho bro,

obtuse

Probably true but no real reason to burn the bridges...unless he just didn't care any more.

[fstrthnu]

i like straight night at the gay bar.


Gaydam Myerspace?

[fstrthnu]

-
- There is only one domestic based US pro team who had NO frame failures this season. .

Team Nerac and who else? We weren't riding Ti though.

I know it is Rite Aid but I am just busting his balls.




Fstrthnu

[davids]

Team Nerac and who else? We weren't riding Ti though.

I know it is Rite Aid but I am just busting his balls.




Fstrthnu
Excellent use of color!

How were those Pegs, anyway?

[fstrthnu]

Excellent use of color!

How were those Pegs, anyway?

The Pegs were an unbelievable race bike and it is most definitely a bike I would buy with my own money.

When I can start to collect bikes, my collection will include a Pegoretti.

Fstrthnu

[atmo]

When I can start to collect bikes, my collection will include a Pegoretti.

Fstrthnu


odd -
i thought a beemer guy like you
would head down this road (http://www.bmw-bianchi.com/team.php) atmo iirc.

[fstrthnu]

odd -
i thought a beemer guy like you
would head down this road (http://www.bmw-bianchi.com/diaries.php) atmo iirc.
.

thats a road i won't go down.

Fstrthnu

[atmo]

You are lucky i like you.

Fstrthnu
am i the straw that broke the camel's back atmo?

[fstrthnu]

.

[Endless Goods]

Can't the layup be changed on a Specialized Tarmac, for example, to satisfy the stiffness requirements of Boonen- while retaining the same exact shape?

Sure it will be heavier, and geometry still stock...but...

[Elefantino]

odd -
i thought a beemer guy like you
would head down this road (http://www.bmw-bianchi.com/team.php) atmo iirc.

I love the team's SAV.

[Tom Kellogg]

Sorry about that, the team was Rite-Aid.

[LegendRider]

yeah, that was the drugs talking. seriously though, johan liked his eddy better than his colnago because that was what he was paid to like better...now he's paid to like specialized better so it's better.

imho bro,

obtuse

Is Johan on a Specialized or this?

[Jeff N.]

I've heard that even 'Nago puts rebadged China bikes out there in the Peloton. Sad. Jeff N.

[LiteSpeeder2]

I must be bored posting again in this loser's forum. There is a great deal of fallacious and ignorant statements made on this forum on a regular basis and this thread is certainly proof of that.

First, let's look at the team bikes that were used in this year's TDF. The majority of the 2006 teams were riding on one of these rigs.

Colnago C50
Scott CR1
Look 595
Time VXRS
Pinarello

Now, which of these rigs is plastic from China? These are all made by the finest frame builders in Europe and they are among the absolute finest bikes on the market today. All of these rigs are as expensive as or more expensive than whatever serotta has to offer. So, it's not a question of money. Looking at it objectively, there is nothing that serotta has to offer that can match the racing qualities of these rigs – absolutely nothing. All that you can offer is fallacious statements without any justification.

Additionally, many riders in the pro peloton do have the flexibility of using whatever rebadged rigs they prefer to ride. Parlee and Litespeeds have shown up as rebadged rigs in the pro peloton over the last 10 years. Yet, I cannot recall any rebadged serottas in the pro peloton. Don't kid yourself. Serotta would do whatever they could to equip a pro TDF racing team. Equiping a TDF team often brings in a great deal more money to the frame builder than whatever they put out. But sadly, there aren't too many credible teams out there who are willing to equip their riders with recreational rigs.

One more thing. Why are bikes from Asia any more inferior to American made products as you seem to imply? Only an idiot would make such an ignorant statement. Asia is known for manufacturing quality products from automobiles to electronics to appliances. Asia has a lot more experience with cycling than the US does as cycling is their main mode of transportation. Why would some stooge in upstate NY be a better frame builder than an Asian worker? Think about what you are saying before you make such foolish statements. And think about the inferior quality of Asian products the next time that you're driving around in your Toyota or Honda.

Serotta's business model is to build custom and comfort frames for middle aged recreational cyclists. There is nothing wrong with that and serotta has been very successful over the years catering to this crowd. Anyone who believes that a TDF team would pick a recreational bike to race with is just fooling themselves. If every rider in the TDF would have the opportunity to pick their bike I would bet that they would most likely select it from the list of frames above. But they certainly wouldn't chose a serotta recreational bike. You are a first class idiot who is only fooling yourself to think that serottas are racing bikes.


:bike:

[dave thompson]

I must be bored posting again in this loser's forum. There is a great deal of fallacious and ignorant statements made on this forum on a regular basis .......<snip> :bike:
Hey LiteSpeeder2, nice to see you again. :butt:

I notice the new screen name. What happened, get kicked off here too?

[sspielman]

I must be bored posting again in this loser's forum. There is a great deal of fallacious and ignorant statements made on this forum on a regular basis and this thread is certainly proof of that.

First, let's look at the team bikes that were used in this year's TDF. The majority of the 2006 teams were riding on one of these rigs.

Colnago C50
Scott CR1
Look 595
Time VXRS
Pinarello

Now, which of these rigs is plastic from China? These are all made by the finest frame builders in Europe and they are among the absolute finest bikes on the market today. All of these rigs are as expensive as or more expensive than whatever serotta has to offer. So, it's not a question of money. Looking at it objectively, there is nothing that serotta has to offer that can match the racing qualities of these rigs – absolutely nothing. All that you can offer is fallacious statements without any justification.

Additionally, many riders in the pro peloton do have the flexibility of using whatever rebadged rigs they prefer to ride. Parlee and Litespeeds have shown up as rebadged rigs in the pro peloton over the last 10 years. Yet, I cannot recall any rebadged serottas in the pro peloton. Don't kid yourself. Serotta would do whatever they could to equip a pro TDF racing team. Equiping a TDF team often brings in a great deal more money to the frame builder than whatever they put out. But sadly, there aren't too many credible teams out there who are willing to equip their riders with recreational rigs.

One more thing. Why are bikes from Asia any more inferior to American made products as you seem to imply? Only an idiot would make such an ignorant statement. Asia is known for manufacturing quality products from automobiles to electronics to appliances. Asia has a lot more experience with cycling than the US does as cycling is their main mode of transportation. Why would some stooge in upstate NY be a better frame builder than an Asian worker? Think about what you are saying before you make such foolish statements. And think about the inferior quality of Asian products the next time that you're driving around in your Toyota or Honda.

Serotta's business model is to build custom and comfort frames for middle aged recreational cyclists. There is nothing wrong with that and serotta has been very successful over the years catering to this crowd. Anyone who believes that a TDF team would pick a recreational bike to race with is just fooling themselves. If every rider in the TDF would have the opportunity to pick their bike I would bet that they would most likely select it from the list of frames above. But they certainly wouldn't chose a serotta recreational bike. You are a first class idiot who is only fooling yourself to think that serottas are racing bikes.


:bike:

From the provided list, only the Scott is made in Asia.....and coincidentally or not, is the last one that I would choose from the given selections.....

[atmo]

I must be bored...

i happen to have marshall mcluhan here.
don't make me drag him out atmo.

[Endless Goods]

I must be bored posting again in this loser's forum. There is a great deal of fallacious and ignorant statements made on this forum on a regular basis and this thread is certainly proof of that.

*blather deleted*

You are a first class idiot who is only fooling yourself to think that serottas are racing bikes.


:bike:

I know Marcel Wust hated his Ottrot in the ProCycling review last year. Said it was the worst bike he'd ever ridden.

[obtuse]

I must be bored posting again in this loser's forum. There is a great deal of fallacious and ignorant statements made on this forum on a regular basis and this thread is certainly proof of that.

First, let's look at the team bikes that were used in this year's TDF. The majority of the 2006 teams were riding on one of these rigs.

Colnago C50
Scott CR1
Look 595
Time VXRS
Pinarello

Now, which of these rigs is plastic from China? These are all made by the finest frame builders in Europe and they are among the absolute finest bikes on the market today. All of these rigs are as expensive as or more expensive than whatever serotta has to offer. So, it's not a question of money. Looking at it objectively, there is nothing that serotta has to offer that can match the racing qualities of these rigs – absolutely nothing. All that you can offer is fallacious statements without any justification.

Additionally, many riders in the pro peloton do have the flexibility of using whatever rebadged rigs they prefer to ride. Parlee and Litespeeds have shown up as rebadged rigs in the pro peloton over the last 10 years. Yet, I cannot recall any rebadged serottas in the pro peloton. Don't kid yourself. Serotta would do whatever they could to equip a pro TDF racing team. Equiping a TDF team often brings in a great deal more money to the frame builder than whatever they put out. But sadly, there aren't too many credible teams out there who are willing to equip their riders with recreational rigs.

One more thing. Why are bikes from Asia any more inferior to American made products as you seem to imply? Only an idiot would make such an ignorant statement. Asia is known for manufacturing quality products from automobiles to electronics to appliances. Asia has a lot more experience with cycling than the US does as cycling is their main mode of transportation. Why would some stooge in upstate NY be a better frame builder than an Asian worker? Think about what you are saying before you make such foolish statements. And think about the inferior quality of Asian products the next time that you're driving around in your Toyota or Honda.

Serotta's business model is to build custom and comfort frames for middle aged recreational cyclists. There is nothing wrong with that and serotta has been very successful over the years catering to this crowd. Anyone who believes that a TDF team would pick a recreational bike to race with is just fooling themselves. If every rider in the TDF would have the opportunity to pick their bike I would bet that they would most likely select it from the list of frames above. But they certainly wouldn't chose a serotta recreational bike. You are a first class idiot who is only fooling yourself to think that serottas are racing bikes.


:bike:

numbnuts,

you have no idea what you are talking about. no one was saying that pinarello, colnago, look and time can't or don't build world class race bikes. read my initial post.

by the way; by most accounts the worst bike ever race in the pro peloton by most accounts were those madpainful litespeeds......who here was ever saying a colnago, time, look or a pinarello weren't opimized customizable race race bikes? it's when the guys move from nice bikes to junk like litespeed that people like peter van petegem (never a stickler for equipment) announce that they would have had a better season were they not on the worst bike in the peleton.....

ask fstrthnu what the lotto guys did for kicks while flicking the top tubes of those mad painful bikes.

obtuse

[aLexis]

I must be bored posting again in this loser's forum...... You are a first class idiot who is only fooling yourself to think that serottas are racing bikes.


:bike:


For someone with over 2000 posts on his real identity, you sure don't seem to mind the forum too much. May LiteSpeeder2 buzz off and bring his more civil side back.

[atmo]

rate this thread atmo.

[Grant McLean]

I must be bored posting again in this loser's forum. There is a great deal of fallacious and ignorant statements made on this forum on a regular basis and this thread is certainly proof of that.

First, let's look at the team bikes that were used in this year's TDF. The majority of the 2006 teams were riding on one of these rigs.

Colnago C50
Scott CR1
Look 595
Time VXRS
Pinarello

Now, which of these rigs is plastic from China? :

Pinarello carbon bikes are made in china. (not that there's anything wrong with that...)
So are Cervelo, Specialized, Giant, and Eddy Merckx. (Ridley too?) I think that your point
that the "majority" are not is not really an accurate picture of reality.

g

[LegendRider]

Pinarello carbon bikes are made in china. (not that there's anything wrong with that...)
So are Cervelo, Specialized, Giant, and Eddy Merckx. (Ridley too?) I think that your point
that the "majority" are not is not really an accurate picture of reality.

g

To be pedantic, these are made in Taiwan, not mainland China, correct?

[Grant McLean]

To be pedantic, these are made in Taiwan, not mainland China, correct?

mainland.

Some companies in Taiwan have warehouses, where they unpack the boxes
from China, and change the sticker to "made in taiwan". The factory is
in China. (not that there's anything wrong with that...) There are different
import duties depending on country of origin. Especially in Europe, it's
much cheaper to import from Taiwan not China... but the frames come from
China.

Also, a lot raw carbon thread comes from Japan. Some carbon was ending up in
China's military complex, which is something that Japan isn't happy about.
It saves everyone face when Taiwan is seen as the manufacturer, but
it's really china that's making the stuff.


g

[Kirk Pacenti]

.

[atmo]

(big companies buying up little ones)atmo

[Jeff Weir]

that's the slogan my wife uses.....

[atmo]

that's the slogan my wife uses.....
.

[zeroking17]

atmo

I guess this makes you a Demiurge*?

*In Classical Greek, the word means “artisan” or “craftsman” (literally in the service of the people: δήμιος (dēmios) “the people”(deriv. of dêmos the people) + ἔργον (ergon) “ worker”). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

[atmo]

I guess this makes you a Demiurge*?

*In Classical Greek, the word means “artisan” or “craftsman” (literally in the service of the people: δήμιος (dēmios) “the people”(deriv. of dêmos the people) + ἔργον (ergon) “ worker”). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge
it was a ????? (http://z.about.com/d/webclipart/1/0/p/L/blnksym3.gif) thingy atmo.

[zeroking17]

it was a ????? (http://z.about.com/d/webclipart/1/0/p/L/blnksym3.gif) thingy atmo.

Exactly. One rarely hears of business mergers among craftsmen.

[Grant McLean]

talk to the gerolsteiner guys about their bikes. shi'ite equipment doesn't hurt; but it doesn't help and while time has the ability to make a special bike for boonen; specialized does not; at least not something that looks anything like what they "should" be riding. the production model does not allow for that.


obtuse


you nailed it again: