Titanium on MTBs. All created equal ?

[Dave Ferris]

A short history and what I'm considering -- I currently own a '14 Potts 29er with a 100mm Fox fork. Love the bike but after almost 3.5 years on it, I'm thinking of going 650B. I'm at 5' 9'' and a half inches. After recently demoing an inexpensive Marin 650B on my trail , which has a 2000' climb in 3 miles, I just feel the 650 all around would be a better bike for me.

In addition to Steve's bike, I love the looks of bikes by Jim Kish, Eriksen, SyCip, 333 fab and Carl Strong. And lastly, who could not love the visual aspect of the Fireflys !

But just curious as to why their basic Butted Ti frame cost is significantly higher then the aforementioned builders ? I've been told Titanium is all the same grade level -- at least that these longtime and popular custom builders use.

I don't consider myself even a fraction as "bike knowledgeable" as the majority on here as I'm mainly a runner that does cross training on bikes. But I have been riding a long time and do know what appeals to me, both visually and ride quality.

I could be happy with any of those builders but again, I am curious about the Firefly and whether their Mtn. bikes have a distinctly different ride feel quality to them.

[buddybikes]

this is worth reading:https://fireflybicycles.com/about/technology

Reality is all these frames will do the same thing if the geometry is right for your needs.

[Hilltopperny]

The expense may be because of the amount of time that goes into each frame. I ordered a no22 and I saw there process first hand. A lot goes into the finish and details. I have a bunch of lynskey bikes as well and they ride great, but if I wanted to have one with the level of craftsmanship as the no22 it would cost around the same. I believe the majority of price descrepancy is due to the extra hours that go into the frame and whatever the cost to do business in the area they are building is.

[NYCfixie]

I have owned several Lynskeys and liked them all. They keep their costs at a certain price point by not using USA Ti and making stock bikes in a production environment. That does not mean they are bad, that means they are made generic to fit a wide range of people and production building keeps costs down. If you look thorough their offerings you notice that the bikes get more expensive as the tubes are shaped more or are butted. As an example, Compare the R150 (straight gauge round tube ti) to the R275 (triple butted, tapered head tube, electronic ready) and you will realize that even production Ti frames prices carry widely due to what features they have and what finishing has been done. Great value for what you pay.

Next I would mention Seven (full disclosure - I own one). Every frame is custom but built in a highly refined production process so they can offer an amazing value at a different price point. All USA sourced Ti. You can get straight gauge Ti (but unlike Lynskey they will pick tube sizes based on you weight and riding style), you can get butted Ti (unlike Lynskey they butt tubes for the individual rider based on weight and riding style after they have chosen tubes based on your weight and riding style). Again, an amazing value at this price point.

And then FireFly. Just after I got to Boston I toured the shop and met Kevin, Jamie, and Tyler (full disclosure - I did not want to wait a year and because it was my first custom I chose the safe choice which to me was Seven but I am sure FireFly would have built me something amazing). FF builds custom and with that you get an amazing amount of customer service/contact (communication, photos, hand holding, etc.). All USA sourced Ti. They also chose tubes based on rider needs and custom butt each tube like Seven. They take it up a notch (apologies to Emeril) if you look at their work. They even butt the seat tube and leave extra material where the bottle bolts are located (see pic below). Compare there high level dropouts to Seven and then compare them to Lynskey (you get what you pay for). They offer an amazing amount of finish options and basically you can get anything you want made. Again, an amazing amount of value at this price point.


I can't speak to any other Ti builder because I am not familiar with them but Ti is an amazing material and builders can do very cool things with it which is why so many people build with it, offer so many different options, and many different price points.


https://fireflybicycles.com/images/32436487591_3a51f6f564_o.jpg
http://www.peterverdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/6863264974_23b9c66c6c_o.jpg
http://www.tirides.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Seven-Alaris-Race-dropouts.jpg
https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-m0s28s/products/1068/images/10182/2018-R275-frame-web-optimized-dropouts__34952.1510604340.1280.1280.jpg?c=2





The expense may be because of the amount of time that goes into each frame. I ordered a no22 and I saw there process first hand. A lot goes into the finish and details. I have a bunch of lynskey bikes as well and they ride great, but if I wanted to have one with the level of craftsmanship as the no22 it would cost around the same. I believe the majority of price descrepancy is due to the extra hours that go into the frame and whatever the cost to do business in the area they are building is.

[Mikej]

All Ti is not equal. You want US sourced Ti or Sandvik. I know the cost of some of the US tubes and that is where the jump in price comes in. Eriksen, Built, Kish, Potts, Moots, Seven, Engin, FF all use higher grade 9 (correct me if I'm wrong?) ti. FF are more expensive because they can. They do seem to offer more features, and I would pay it if it weren't for the 1.5 year wait. Honestly, any of those builders are awesome and can do what you want. I personally would shy away from a butted downtube on an mtb (rocks). Top tube, (shifter dings) - Builts are looking good.

[zambenini]

Tubing technicalities aside, once you're going for a builder's ti ride, vs., say, a production deal like Kona or Lynskey, I think geo and design philosophy will probably matter most.

Adam Sklar just started doing ti and everything else he has done is killer. belongs in your list, even though he's new at ti. I think his popularity on the R*davist probably means a long queue, tho.

[sandyrs]

All Ti is not equal. You want US sourced Ti or Sandvik. I know the cost of some of the US tubes and that is where the jump in price comes in. Eriksen, Built, Kish, Potts, Moots, Seven, Engin, FF all use higher grade 9 (correct me if I'm wrong?) ti. FF are more expensive because they can. They do seem to offer more features, and I would pay it if it weren't for the 1.5 year wait. Honestly, any of those builders are awesome and can do what you want. I personally would shy away from a butted downtube on an mtb (rocks). Top tube, (shifter dings) - Builts are looking good.

Grade 9 is the same thing as 3/2.5. It just describes the composition of the alloy and aside from the occasional 6/4 it's what essentially every ti frame is made of.

[mhespenheide]

All Ti is not equal. You want US sourced Ti or Sandvik.

Why?

[Mikej]

Why?
I’m a big fan of the American product.

[Mikej]

Grade 9 is the same thing as 3/2.5. It just describes the composition of the alloy and aside from the occasional 6/4 it's what essentially every ti frame is made of.

Correct, that’s what you want.

[jtakeda]

Without adding much to the convo DIBS! hit me up if you want to sell the Potts!!

[jtakeda]

On a more helpful note I think all the people you mentioned and have been mentioned will make an amazing bike.

I suppose “future proofing” would be one if the things to consider if going with a new custom ti bike

[mhespenheide]

I’m a big fan of the American product.

I'm all in favor of keeping it local, but are there actual metallurgical reasons? Is there a difference between 3/2.5 Ti from the USA and 3/2.5 from international sources?

[Mikej]

[QUOTE=mhespenheide;2297199]I'm all in favor of keeping it local, but are there actual metallurgical reasons? Is there a difference between 3/2.5 Ti from the USA and 3/2.5 from international sources?[/QUOTE

Just my opinion, since China makes substandard steel and everything else we have tested. I work in a manufacturing facility that uses a multitude of ferrous and nonferrous alloys, of which I test for engineering. We don’t use Chinese castings or import their raw materials due to constant inferior product that is vastly inconsistent, most likely due to impurities from laid back recycling and processing. Just my opinion from my experience- I’m assuming that since titanium tubing is much more process dependent than carbon steel that Chinese would have troubles. You may actually utilize Chinese 6-4 tubes in landing gear and have a mil- spec for f-33’s for all I know, it’s just my opinion.

[joosttx]

I'm all in favor of keeping it local, but are there actual metallurgical reasons? Is there a difference between 3/2.5 Ti from the USA and 3/2.5 from international sources?

The +/- .

[happycampyer]

Re US sourcing of ti, my understanding from talking to builders and/or reading their websites is that it has mainly to do with quality control, as well as tubing selection. Here is a blurb from Moots’ website as an example:

US made quality matters. We have worked with the same team of engineers at the same tube mill in Washington for 15+ years. Optimizing the material’s dimensions and characteristics for the best ride quality, durability and consistency to produce the best bikes.
Using US certified tubing means each batch of tubing is tested for composition, strength, straightness and resistance to deformation. When using such thin walled tubing this assures superior ride quality and durability.

[mhespenheide]

Got it. Good to know.

[Ken Robb]

Just to lob a grenade into the thread: how does a ti FS bike compare in weight/performance to one made of aluminum assuming similar geometry and components?

I have loved my ti road/cross bikes but my old FS mtn. bike is aluminum and I THINK with FS any subtleties in handling and feel are muted by the suspension.

[Butch]

With the tubing discussion what i have found having been involved in many thousands of titanium bikes over 21 years at Moots, US made grade 9 (3/2.5) seamless ti tubing in a CWSR condition is more consistent in straightness, wall thickness and heat treatment. With a company like Moots that makes a broad spectrum of models in a "made to order" production system, consistency in quality of the raw materials is key to creating repeatable bends and shaping and consistent strength in order to design a frame that is a little lighter. that comes with a lifetime warranty. Don't kid yourself this tubing is expensive and the minimum buy quantities are high. That said when you get to the really big diameter tubes they are hard to find domestically.
With the full suspension question I have gotten to ride all of the titanium full suspension bikes Moots has made over the last 21 years and been part of building most all of them. First I will say that using ti for the front end and rear end to build fully's is a big pain in the ass. My opinion is that as wheels and forks have gotten stiffer and suspension designs have gotten so good with efficient plushness and travel has grow, it is hard to make a really great riding ti suspension especially for bigger riders. As these elements have gotten stiffer it makes sense to have a stiffer frame IMHO. No problem with a hardtail or softail, but a full ti full suspension bike, hard. This is why you see many with an alloy rear triangle/swingarm.

[happycampyer]

Thanks, Butch! It's always a treat when you chime in.

[Kontact]

I think it confuses issues to talk about "grade" because it sounds like a quality level (Grade A beef) rather than an alloy. Grade 9 is an alloy. "Aerospace quality" is one of terms that refers to the quality of the finished tubing.

The real quality question is if the tubing is of a standard that it isn't going to have impurities that pollute welds, and whether the builder's practices for those welds avoid impurities and nitrogen or oxygen damage. At the end of the day the most important quality factor for Ti is whether the welds are clean enough to not crack over extended use. Virtually every cracked Ti frame I have ever seen live or in pictures propagated from a weld or weld HAZ. Great welds on quality Ti will last practically forever.


I have had a Litespeed titanium MTB for 25 years, and I didn't buy it for ride quality. It rolls on fat tires and that means I'm not going to be able to tell the difference between Ti and aluminum as I ride, but the frame is tougher than an aluminum bike which is why I bought it. I don't think frame ride qualities between different materials matter much by the time you're using low pressure tires above 28c width (or is it 32c?).


Titanium frames are arguably a better value than a high end molded CF frame in terms of hand labor, and if Firefly has enough extra hand labor over Kish or Seven to make it worth your while, then it is worth it (to you). If you like what Lynskey has to offer (sometimes for $500 on ebay direct from Lynskey) that is quality, too. Aside from builders of known ill repute, the quality questions pop up most with foreign made Ti from mainly China, plus some Russian sources. And the problem isn't that the Chinese can't weld, but that there aren't any Chinese "brands" in the way we think about them. Any frame supplier in China that gets a bad rep can just change its internet name.

[cadence90]

Some good posts here.
(Even the one by that Butch (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2297428&postcount=19) fellow...sheesh...a member for almost 14 years and he still can't post PSAs, etc., in the Classifieds? :confused:..:D)

Putting aside for a moment the fact that some builders can for a variety of external reasons charge more for very similar frames than others, another cost item to take into account in addition to tubing spec and manipulation are all the ti fittings themselves. I am guessing that a builder who is buying those fittings from Paragon (i.e. Kish) is spending less on them than a builder fabricating custom-designed fittings (i.e Firefly) and charging extra.

Given that there is no performance difference between Paragon dropouts and brand-specific dropouts, to some builders and their customers this is often also a philosophical issue, i.e. pure pragmatism versus distinctive design, as much as a cost issue.
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[Kontact]

Some good posts here.
(Even the one by that Butch (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2297428&postcount=19) fellow...sheesh...a member for almost 14 years and he still can't post PSAs, etc., in the Classifieds? :confused:..:D)

Putting aside for a moment the fact that some builders can for a variety of external reasons charge more for very similar frames than others, another cost item to take into account in addition to tubing spec and manipulation are all the ti fittings themselves. I am guessing that a builder who is buying those fittings from Paragon (i.e. Kish) is spending less on them than a builder fabricating custom-designed fittings (i.e Firefly) and charging extra.

Given that there is no performance difference between Paragon dropouts and brand-specific dropouts, to some builders and their customers this is often also a philosophical issue, i.e. pure pragmatism versus distinctive design, as much as a cost issue.
.


Like Parlee, Firefly is likely also getting their custom dropouts made by Paragon. But they are custom.

[cadence90]

Like Parlee, Firefly is likely also getting their custom dropouts made by Paragon. But they are custom.

:confused:

Of course they are custom; that was already clear. Hence the increased cost, regardless of source, over standard-issue Paragon bits.
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[Kontact]

:confused:

Of course they are custom; that was already clear. Hence the increased cost, regardless of source, over standard-issue Paragon bits.
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I wasn't disagreeing with you about anything. I was just pointing out that they might not be made in house but on the same CNC machines making all the other dropouts that Paragon supplies.

[Dave Ferris]

Without adding much to the convo DIBS! hit me up if you want to sell the Potts!!

Thanks for the offer but it's a keeper. I went through too much to get that bike....

Thanks for the replies everyone. Again, very knowledgeable people here.

cadence90 -- your blue Kish is one of the most visually appealing road bikes I've seen. Simple and understated but classy. If I went with a road bike by Jim it would look exactly like that. And I would do the green on his 650b. Wish he hadn't moved so far away.

[cadence90]

I wasn't disagreeing with you about anything. I was just pointing out that they might not be made in house but on the same CNC machines making all the other dropouts that Paragon supplies.

I understand all that, but how is any of it germane to the question the OP asked? Where the pieces are made isn't important: the relevant issue is that custom ti bits (again: regardless of source) will cost more than standard production.

With that, I was simply trying to give the OP, since he asked the question specifically, another suggestion as to why a Firefly might cost more than a Kish, etc., that's all, nothing more.
.

[cadence90]

cadence90 -- your blue Kish is one of the most visually appealing road bikes I've seen. Simple and understated but classy. If I went with a road bike by Jim it would look exactly like that. And I would do the green on his 650b. Wish he hadn't moved so far away.
Thanks very much; I appreciate it.

I need to update that post one of these days, with some new images. The bicycle looks essentially the same, but even more understated and with better components on it now. It, too, is a keeper. ;)
(Definitely never sell your Potts; those things are diamonds.)

Yes, Jim's being within easy driving distance from LA at the time was a major reason I went to him. It was great being able to hang out there and chat about anything. A jaunt out to NC would be a whole different ball of gas; it would certainly be fun though.


EDIT:
@ Dave Ferris: Beautiful pieces in your Soundcloud signature, both the studio recordings and the home versions played on that gorgeous Steinway.
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[Kontact]

I understand all that, but how is any of it germane to the question the OP asked? Where the pieces are made isn't important: the relevant issue is that custom ti bits (again: regardless of source) will cost more than standard production.

With that, I was simply trying to give the OP, since he asked the question specifically, another suggestion as to why a Firefly might cost more than a Kish, etc., that's all, nothing more.
.


Not sure what you're upset about or why my post was unreasonable. I think it is interesting that Paragon makes both the production and custom parts and thought other people might find that interesting as well.

Sorry that distressed you.

[cadence90]

Not sure what you're upset about or why my post was unreasonable. I think it is interesting that Paragon makes both the production and custom parts and thought other people might find that interesting as well.

Sorry that distressed you.

I am not upset or distressed at all, but simply do not understand the continual parsing, etc. and migration away from the original questions asked by the OP (not confined to this thread alone). I do find it ironic that one of your very own threads was essentially a long rant against forum "clutter". If you and I had not had this lovely back-and-forth this thread would not have been negatively affected (less useful information provided) in the least, really.

Since you seem to be quite often wanting these, here is one of your very own to use wherever and whenever you desire:
"Last Word."



My apologies to Dave Ferris et al; my only intention was to provide an additional and brief observation dedicated to one of the original questions, and definitely not to devolve into treatises regarding extraneous details.
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[Kontact]

I am not upset or distressed at all, but simply do not understand the continual parsing, etc. and migration away from the original questions asked by the OP (not confined to this thread alone). I do find it ironic that one of your very own threads was essentially a long rant against forum "clutter". If you and I had not had this lovely back-and-forth this thread would not have been negatively affected (less useful information provided) in the least, really.

Since you seem to be quite often wanting these, here is one of your very own to use wherever and whenever you desire:
"Last Word."



My apologies to Dave Ferris et al; my only intention was to provide an additional and brief observation dedicated to one of the original questions, and definitely not to devolve into treatises regarding extraneous details.
.
Damn, what is wrong with you????

The thread is a very general thread about what goes into the relative costs of different Ti frame producers, and where there parts come from is entirely on topic - I was merely adding details to a subject you brought up.



But f'ing thanks for making a perfectly polite and factual discussion about metal parts into a bunch of personal attack crap. It is totally unreasonable and completely slimy on your part to have gone there with this kind of stupid, ad hominim crap that Paceline seems to breed.

And by all means have the last word or not. It doesn't change the fact that you are acting like a turd.