abuses in women's cycling article - thoughts?

[Gummee]

link (http://www.velonews.com/2018/01/the-outer-line/the-outer-line-the-legacy-of-sexism-and-abuse-in-womens-cycling_454564)

I'd like to see a follow-up story about lower level men's cycling. I'll bet the similarities are greater than the differences.

M

[false_Aest]

I can't speak to pro cycling but I can tell you that

E V E R Y S I N G L E W O M A N

I know had suffered workplace harassment, abuse + discrimination - sometimes mild (e.g. lower pay rate, dismissed simply b/c of gender) sometimes huge (e.g. an ex was told that she'd be the perfect employee "if you just had a d!ck." and at least two good friends have been groped by their bosses.)

If I had to guess, I don't think it happens to the same extent in lower level men's cycling. Simply because, this type of abuse/harassment/discrimination against is so pervasive + culturally ingrained.

I hear a lot about this stuff b/c my GF works with female entrepreneurs + business women exclusively -- from lawyers to athletes to creatives -- I've never heard any males, in any field, relate such horror stories. Yeah, I've asked guys (a bunch actually).

[Heisenberg]

link (http://www.velonews.com/2018/01/the-outer-line/the-outer-line-the-legacy-of-sexism-and-abuse-in-womens-cycling_454564)

I'd like to see a follow-up story about lower level men's cycling. I'll bet the similarities are greater than the differences.

M

Not really. No comparison.

The women get royally ****ed. The men at least have a path out, in many more ways than one.

[GonaSovereign]

That was a terrible read.
There are a lot of garbage humans on this planet.

[FlashUNC]

The difference is of both kind and degree, as the Larry Nasser case shows.

Theo Fleury and a bunch of kids who went through junior hockey know all too well that it sadly isn't behavior isolated to women's sports. But yes, the story is horrifying.

[GregL]

There is absolutely no doubt that women's racing has a culture of abuse. During the late 1990s through early 2000s, we used to see Genevieve Jeanson and her infamous coach Andre Aubut at upstate NY stage races. It was instantly apparent that Aubut controlled Jeanson's every action. Barring any clear illegal activity on Aubut's part, there was little we could do but shake our heads.

Greg

[AngryScientist]

sad.

one can only hope that the recent spotlight treatment and denouncing of public figures who create a culture of abuse will effect some change across the board.

no one should have to put up with nonsense like that described in the article.

[false_Aest]

There is absolutely no doubt that women's racing has a culture of abuse. During the late 1990s through early 2000s, we used to see Genevieve Jeanson and her infamous coach Andre Aubut at upstate NY stage races. It was instantly apparent that Aubut controlled Jeanson's every action. Barring any clear illegal activity on Aubut's part, there was little we could do but shake our heads.

Greg


There's a Cycling Tips podcast about that story. The ***** didnt end after she got busted.

[jruhlen1980]

The few people I've put on my ignore list typically show up on threads like these with NOT ALL MEN! ranting in 3... 2... 1...

[zennmotion]

There's a Cycling Tips podcast about that story. The ***** didnt end after she got busted.

Thanks for pointing to this, I hadn't heard her full story before. I listened to the full podcast and it's well done, and not all about the bike, in fact the bike is just a minor player. I won't spoil it, but the best part of the podcast for me was her response to the question about her greatest win. Definitely worth a listen, she's definitely a survivor with lessons to teach and someone I'd love to go for a (very slow for her) ride with- huge respect.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/cyclingtips-podcast-episode-24-genevieve-jeanson-on-making-peace-with-a-tainted-past/

[GregL]

Thanks for pointing to this, I hadn't heard her full story before. I listened to the full podcast and it's well done, and not all about the bike, in fact the bike is just a minor player. I won't spoil it, but the best part of the podcast for me was her response to the question about her greatest win. Definitely worth a listen, she's definitely a survivor with lessons to teach and someone I'd love to go for a (very slow for her) ride with- huge respect.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/cyclingtips-podcast-episode-24-genevieve-jeanson-on-making-peace-with-a-tainted-past/
Thanks to both of you for the podcast link. It's eye opening to hear her story. Pushing EPO on a teenager accompanied by verbal and physical abuse. There are no excuses for Aubut's behavior. He belongs in jail for life. I remember watching Jeanson race and being awed by her ability. I also remember that her coach was creepy and clearly controlling. I knew the relationship wasn't healthy, but there was simply no evidence at the time to compel an intervention. I hope that Genevieve can move on to a healthier and happier life.

Greg

[MattTuck]

no one should have to put up with nonsense like that described in the article.
For the first part of the story, financial manipulation -- I am less sympathetic.

People get taken advantage of all the time in contract negotiations (in sports and in other areas of industry), it seems the issue is that the women in this story thought they didn't have a choice and signed contracts that were not in their best interest. All sorts of things could lead to this, feeling pressured, poor representation, even outright fraud.

But these are matters of contract law and all seem easily remedied, through either better contract writing and negotiation or the court system -- in the cases of contract disputes.

It is hard for me to see how this is a female issue, other than the fact that in this case the victims happen to be females. Yes, there may be a culture that enables and perpetuates an attitude that playing games, intimidating, misrepresenting during negotiations acceptable. But writing and (voluntarily) signing contracts is not a gender issue to me. If we need a special observer to supervise contracts because one of the parties is female, that seems to have set back equality by a fair margin.

On the other accounts, it certainly seems troubling. I wonder how some of these dynamics develop in the first place. If a new coach/director comes in with good intentions, and through trial and error finds this approach gets better results, or if certain personality types tend to gravitate to these roles.

There is so little money and opportunity in women's cycling, there seems to be a willingness to accept (maybe tolerate is a better word) these toxic environments as the price of admission to chasing your dreams. When you are surrounded by coaches, trainers, etc. (especially from a young age), there is probably a heavy emphasis on sacrifice, pushing through the pain, etc. At some point, a supportive and nurturing environment around you probably just becomes another thing you are willing to sacrifice in pursuit of your sport.

That this stuff is becoming exposed is a good thing, and I think (for a number of reasons that I won't get into here) that women's racing has a lot of potential to grow and achieve commercial success, that will lead to more equitable treatment.

[John H.]

Does this qualify as abuse?

I know of one pro women's team where the director made all riders switch from compact cranksets to standard chainrings.
He said they needed "big boy gears".

[choke]

For the first part of the story, financial manipulation -- I am less sympathetic.

People get taken advantage of all the time in contract negotiations (in sports and in other areas of industry), it seems the issue is that the women in this story thought they didn't have a choice and signed contracts that were not in their best interest. All sorts of things could lead to this, feeling pressured, poor representation, even outright fraud.

But these are matters of contract law and all seem easily remedied, through either better contract writing and negotiation or the court system -- in the cases of contract disputes.

It is hard for me to see how this is a female issue, other than the fact that in this case the victims happen to be females. Yes, there may be a culture that enables and perpetuates an attitude that playing games, intimidating, misrepresenting during negotiations acceptable. But writing and (voluntarily) signing contracts is not a gender issue to me. If we need a special observer to supervise contracts because one of the parties is female, that seems to have set back equality by a fair margin.I get what you're saying and I agree to a degree....but it's such a widespread occurrence in the women's peloton that it is a huge problem.

A few weeks ago the women road racers formed a union, the Cyclist's Alliance. While in the process of forming they took a survey in 2017 (with nearly 300 responses) and here are a couple of results of that survey:

- 53% made 10,000 Euro or less per year (of that 53%, 29% made 5000 Euro or less and 3% had no salary) and only 8% made 40,000 Euro or more
- 52% had (at some point) to pay their team back for travel, equipment, medical, mechanics, and other services

I'm a huge fan of women's racing and I knew that they were paid significantly less than the men.....but I was still shocked when I read that.

http://cyclistsalliance.org/2017/12/the-cyclists-alliance-rider-survey/

[ptourkin]

Does this qualify as abuse?

I know of one pro women's team where the director made all riders switch from compact cranksets to standard chainrings.
He said they needed "big boy gears".

That's hilarious. Did you read the part about sexual abuse? Give you a little chuckle?

[djg21]

That was a terrible read.
There are a lot of garbage humans on this planet.

That was my conclusion too. There was no factual discussion about sexual misconduct, and nothing to suggest that lower level men’s teams are not treated equally badly. The article underscores only that team management can be difficult, and team directors can be complete assholes. Is that shocking?

[tommyrod74]

I get what you're saying and I agree to a degree....but it's such a widespread occurrence in the women's peloton that it is a huge problem.

A few weeks ago the women road racers formed a union, the Cyclist's Alliance. While in the process of forming they took a survey in 2017 (with nearly 300 responses) and here are a couple of results of that survey:

- 53% made 10,000 Euro or less per year (of that 53%, 29% made 5000 Euro or less and 3% had no salary) and only 8% made 40,000 Euro or more
- 52% had (at some point) to pay their team back for travel, equipment, medical, mechanics, and other services

I'm a huge fan of women's racing and I knew that they were paid significantly less than the men.....but I was still shocked when I read that.

http://cyclistsalliance.org/2017/12/the-cyclists-alliance-rider-survey/

I'd argue that as it's such a big problem in womens' cycling, it demonstrates that we have a long way to go with regards to equality (despite what some might think), and, yep, we might need to have a governing body supervising contracts until it isn't an issue anymore.

[benb]

It's hard to believe there isn't some sexual abuse/harassment going on since it seems to be prevalent in every field/business/sport, especially since the structure of bike teams puts so much power in the hands of the team over the riders.

But yah the article was pretty bad, nothing in their examples was gender specific.. I kept waiting for the section where they would have some examples of sexual harassment. The fake penis story is the closest they've got but it would be highly offensive the rider receiving it was a man too. For the examples they gave their article would have been stronger if they didn't make it about women and included testimonials from men and women, I doubt it would have been difficult finding similar stories from male riders.

FWIW this stuff seems like nothing compared to gymnastics! My sister was a high level gymnast, nothing ever happened to her but that sport had such a creepy vibe I knew it even as a kid!

There is not much I hear about Pro cycling that ever makes me with I had that level of talent.

[djg21]

I'd argue that as it's such a big problem in womens' cycling, it demonstrates that we have a long way to go with regards to equality (despite what some might think), and, yep, we might need to have a governing body supervising contracts until it isn't an issue anymore.

I have mixed feelings about this. Of course I’d love to see women cyclists earning the same as their male counterparts, and wish they had the same opportunities. But the reality is that professional bicycle racing, like all professional sport, is entertainment. As a matter of economics, pro athlete salaries reflect the revenue that pro sports enterprises can generate through their participation in the sport, which in turn is a reflection of fan interest. NFL players can earn a lot of money because they put fans in seats and generate huge amounts of TV revenue for the NFL and team owners. There just isn’t the same level of fan interest in cycling, or the opportunity for promoters, teams, race organizers, pro cycling leagues or organizations, sponsors, advertisers, etc., to generate large amounts of income (putting aside the Lance phenomena, which has ended). There is even less fan interest in women’s cycling. Perhaps there would be more if more pro women’s racing were televised and covered by the cycling media? But that is speculative.

Where does the money for pro women’s contracts come from even if there were a governing body supervising? There is not an easy answer to this issue.