OT: R.I.P. Dan Gurney

[Bruce K]

Auto racing pioneer

Many fond memories of him and/or his various All-American Racing efforts and the Eagle Indy cars.

BK

[oliver1850]

One of the giants of motorsports. He did so many things at the highest level. It's a bit of a shame that he didn't concentrate more on F1. His Eagle remains the only winning F1 car built in the USA, and one of the prettiest race cars ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Mk1

[Mike V]

Big lose in the racing world.

He was very cool person. I got to meet and talk to him many times in the early days of Cars And Coffee in SoCal. It was in the middle of our ride. He would stop by in the middle of his ride while testing his Alligator motorcycle. Just standing there shotin the s--t with Dan Gurney!

RIP Dan Gurney

[bthornt]

Won Le Mans in a Ford GT 40 with A.J. Foyt (first time champagne sprayed into crowd, it is alleged), and also won F1 race at Spa with the US built Eagle.

[David Kirk]

That guy is effing awesome.

dave

[Birddog]

Along with Carroll Shelby he was a racing legend. When I toyed with being a motorhead he was a hero. I've done a quick search, but wasn't he involved with development of a multi engine car in the early 60's?

[Elefantino]

The greatest American race car driver.

[soulspinner]

The greatest American race car driver.

Better than Mario?

[Mr. Pink]

First winner of the Cannonball 500 with Brock Yates at his side in a Ferrari Daytona. Brock's writings about that in Sunday Driver are a very entertaining read.

[GregL]

Better than Mario?
Mario had more wins, but Gurney was more successful as a designer, manufacturer, and team owner. Mario was notoriously hard on equipment, while Gurney was just the opposite. Gurney's versatility was his hallmark. His success in 1967 was incredible (see bthornt's post above). Gurney and Mark Donohue were the two drivers/designers that I admired most when I was an aspiring racer.

Greg

[Mr. Pink]

One could argue that Mario, although an awfully good driver, was just luckier. Better cars offered to him, especially the Lotus 79. Although Mario would say Danny Sullivan was much more lucky to anyone he meets.

Both were very lucky to drive in the most lethal period of motor racing and survive with bodies pretty much intact.

[bthornt]

Off topic, but certainly a great discussion - who was (or is) the greatest driver of all time? Mario Andretti (my choice, by the way) won at Indy, Daytona, and the F1 championship. The biggest race he didn't win is F1 Monte Carlo. He drove every type of vehicle, in every type of race, with great success. But that was a long time ago, and very similar to cycling at that time. You were expected to race all season long, in all types of races - grand tours, one day races, and the track.

[bicycletricycle]

Was he the guy they had to put a bump on the roof of the gt40 for?

[tv_vt]

One of the big names from my youth. A legend for sure.

This thread really needs some youtube links!

[bthornt]

Was he the guy they had to put a bump on the roof of the gt40 for?

Yep, I guess he was like 6'7", and the GT 40 was pretty darn low and sleek.

A great book on racing during that time: Go Like Hell

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003K16PBY/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

[72gmc]

This thread really needs some youtube links!

I agree!

A series on the RACER channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4eKqmYO9lQ)

recollections from Peter Windsor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSTV6VGDY8)

Gurney Eagle at Goodwood Revival (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTui7Bwnibo)

[soulspinner]

Mario had more wins, but Gurney was more successful as a designer, manufacturer, and team owner. Mario was notoriously hard on equipment, while Gurney was just the opposite. Gurney's versatility was his hallmark. His success in 1967 was incredible (see bthornt's post above). Gurney and Mark Donohue were the two drivers/designers that I admired most when I was an aspiring racer.

Greg

Mario won in stock cars, Indy cars and was an F1 champ. Question was driver. Having met him, watched him race in person etc I would say his skills were un matched by any American ever. Was he Schumacher? No, but Michael was a one off.

[johnniecakes]

Mario won in stock cars, Indy cars and was an F1 champ. Question was driver. Having met him, watched him race in person etc I would say his skills were un matched by any American ever. Was he Schumacher? No, but Michael was a one off.

I would have loved to see Michael in a USAC sprint car against Mario. And Mario never had Rubens pull over to give Michael the win (following team orders).

[parris]

I don't know how to really answer the greatest driver question. This is just my personal preference speaking but for me it would be Jim Clark followed by Mario and Sterling Moss (tie), and then either Fangio or Jackie Stewart to round out the top 3. Again it's just my personal preference.

[Mr. Pink]

Off topic, but certainly a great discussion - who was (or is) the greatest driver of all time? Mario Andretti (my choice, by the way) won at Indy, Daytona, and the F1 championship. The biggest race he didn't win is F1 Monte Carlo. He drove every type of vehicle, in every type of race, with great success. But that was a long time ago, and very similar to cycling at that time. You were expected to race all season long, in all types of races - grand tours, one day races, and the track.

Actually, the one race Mario always wanted was LeMans. Almost made it, but he admitted he brain faded in the middle of the night and locked up fresh brakes and crashed his GT40. He attempted to win that race up to almost age 60, but, the Stars weren't aligned. That would be an achievement that would never be surpassed in history, although the triple header he holds claim to won't, either. I have seen Mario in person, btw, and, for the life of me, I can't imagine a man of his small size handling an old school NASCAR stocker at Daytona. That needed size and strength, most of thos older drivers were ex football players.

I think Monte Carlo is overhyped, usually going to the best qualifier, since it's so hard to pass.

F1 drivers, and drivers in other types of racing back then did not get the incredibly lucrative contracts that they receive today, which usually restrict them to one form of racing. Drivers of the 60s and 70s were more freelance Cowboys for hire, chasing short term contracts.

[Mr. Pink]

I don't know how to really answer the greatest driver question. This is just my personal preference speaking but for me it would be Jim Clark followed by Mario and Sterling Moss (tie), and then either Fangio or Jackie Stewart to round out the top 3. Again it's just my personal preference.

It's pretty much impossible to name a greatest ever, due to the vast disparities in technology over the years. Look at the kind of car Fangio was driving, compared to modern day tech marvels. He had no launch control, and a steering wheel that most gamer teenagers lust over with forty buttons of all sort. Just drum brakes, skinny tires, and a little windshield, all attached to a monster engine. And they raced on essentially country roads in Europe, not modern, incredibly safe tracks.

[steelbikerider]

Mario having success on oval tracks in stock cars is a big separator for me. If only A.J. Foyt had taken up Mr. Ferrari's offer for an F1 ride. Imagine , Gurney, Andretti and Foyt in F1 together.
Andretti - no Lemans win or car designs with his name
Foyt - no F1
Gurney - no oval stock car wins or Indy 500

[bthornt]

Quote from Mr. Pink: I think Monte Carlo is overhyped, usually going to the best qualifier, since it's so hard to pass.

I couldn't agree more. Nonetheless, if you were to list all the "must have" wins in motorsports, I think you would have Indy, Le Mans, Daytona, and Monte Carlo. I don't think anyone has won all of them.

[Mr. Pink]

Mario having success on oval tracks in stock cars is a big separator for me. If only A.J. Foyt had taken up Mr. Ferrari's offer for an F1 ride. Imagine , Gurney, Andretti and Foyt in F1 together.
Andretti - no Lemans win or car designs with his name
Foyt - no F1
Gurney - no oval stock car wins or Indy 500


Let's not forget that Mario, in the same season, drove Sprint cars on American dirt, and then flew over to Europe to race F1. I just love that. Never happen again.

[Mr. Pink]

Quote from Mr. Pink: I think Monte Carlo is overhyped, usually going to the best qualifier, since it's so hard to pass.

I couldn't agree more. Nonetheless, if you were to list all the "must have" wins in motorsports, I think you would have Indy, Le Mans, Daytona, and Monte Carlo. I don't think anyone has won all of them.

No, but, he's got that Championship in his pocket, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't care too much.

[bthornt]

He won Le Mans, Indy 500, and Monaco (Monte Carlo). I have a hard time imagining him in a stock car, though!

So different in cycling. We have Eddy Merckx, unequivocally the greatest cyclist ever. I don't think many other sports have an all time great like him.

[Corso]

I thought this thread was about Mr Gurney? Leave Mario out of this please.

Dan was one of the greats in American Racing. Period.

God SPEED Dan!

[Ken Robb]

I can't choose a "best" but besides all the fine drivers already mentioned I like Phil Hill, A.J. Foyt. and Parnelli Jones. There are probably lots of others I won't mention because their success came in just one kind of racing though they might have done well in many other venues too.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a successful driver who was also as successful a designer/builder as Gurney.

[Bruce K]

It was a great era for American motor sports and Gurney was a pioneer.

Few like him in today’s racing scene.

BK

[PacNW2Ford]

The Spa-winning Eagle was known as the “titanium” car as it used more titanium and magnesium parts. For the sixties, this was quite exotic and reflected the proximity to So Cal’s aerospace industry. For me he epitomized California hot rodding at he highest levels. This was also true of the world-beating Toyota GTP car.

[72gmc]

The Eagle is such a great looking car.

[Mr. Pink]

Yeah, really. Pretty.

[Mr. Pink]

The Spa-winning Eagle was known as the “titanium” car as it used more titanium and magnesium parts. For the sixties, this was quite exotic and reflected the proximity to So Cal’s aerospace industry. For me he epitomized California hot rodding at he highest levels. This was also true of the world-beating Toyota GTP car.

Just read a bio of him, and, yeah, he started by building rods. Cheap, fast Hot Rods, California style.

[bthornt]

Catching a ride on the GT40 on the way to victory lane, 1967 Le Mans, A.J. Foyt behind the wheel.

[bikinchris]

Was he the guy they had to put a bump on the roof of the gt40 for?

Yes, he was so tall they put the so called Gurney bubble in his car.

He also designed the Shelby Daytona Coupe which was faster and more stable in testing 5han the GT40. But Ford wanted the GT40 program, so the Daytona program was scrapped.

[PacNW2Ford]

Yes, he was so tall they put the so called Gurney bubble in his car.

He also designed the Shelby Daytona Coupe which was faster and more stable in testing 5han the GT40. But Ford wanted the GT40 program, so the Daytona program was scrapped.

The Cobra Daytona was designed by "Pete Brock"

[Bruce K]

And it raced vs the GTs for (I believe) 2 seasons.

BK

[oldpotatoe]

One of the first to try this..big, adjustable wings..now ubiquitous

[tv_vt]

Those McLarens were so cool. You sure Gurney was involved with them? Thought they were British.

[Mr. Pink]

He just drove. Bruce McClaren's greatest creation. He was a New Zealand native, but, may have enlisted British expertise in the process.

[tjs555]

If rating great American racers, you must include A.J. Foyt. Also worthy of note are Tommy Milton and Jimmy Murphy, the latter of which won the 1921 French Grand Prix in a (American) Duesenberg. In Europe, Tazio Nuvolari was exceptional.

[Mr. Pink]

One of the first to try this..big, adjustable wings..now ubiquitous

No, not any longer. That was actually a brief period for rear wings, in the early days of aerodynamic designs. They were incredibly dangerous, and caused a few devastating accidents, when they broke and collapsed at speed, instantly reducing downforce when it was most needed. Graham Hill was almost killed in one incident in an F1 car. They were made illegal in all forms of racing, and all moved to fixed wings and bodywork, which, is now, as you say, ubiquitous.

[Mr. Pink]

A good bio.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/dan-gurney-obituary-feature

[bthornt]

One of the pioneers of aerodynamics and wings in racing was Jim Hall and his chaparral cars.

[Birddog]

One of the pioneers of aerodynamics and wings in racing was Jim Hall and his chaparral cars.

Didn't he also originate the "peanut butter" transmission?

[bthornt]

Didn't he also originate the "peanut butter" transmission?

I'm not sure what the "peanut butter" transmission is, but most of his cars had automatic transmissions because the left foot (the clutch foot) was used to actuate the rear wing.

Incidentally, he also invented the Chaparral 2J, the famous suction "ground effects" car.

[Birddog]

I'm not sure what the "peanut butter" transmission is, but most of his cars had automatic transmissions because the left foot (the clutch foot) was used to actuate the rear wing.

Incidentally, he also invented the Chaparral 2J, the famous suction "ground effects" car.

I can't remember the particulars but sometime back, probably in the early 70's he was asked by a writer what the secret was to his running automatic transmissions. Hall replied with a straight face "peanut butter" and didn't elaborate leaving the writer to ponder whether Hall was pulling his leg or not. I may have read that in Playboy, not sure, the photos were distracting.
Hall, Shelby and Gurney were special in a special time for racing and innovation.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm not sure what the "peanut butter" transmission is, but most of his cars had automatic transmissions because the left foot (the clutch foot) was used to actuate the rear wing.

Incidentally, he also invented the Chaparral 2J, the famous suction "ground effects" car.

Rare photo. Talk about a short time frame. Biggest issue was trying to pass and getting blasted with track waste. In the face.

[GregL]

Trans Am, Can Am, and Formula 5000. Those three series captured my childhood imagination and led me to amateur road racing as a young adult. Bruce McLaren, Jim Hall, Mark Donohue, and Dan Gurney were my heroes! I need to get to the Revs Institute and Simeone Foundation Museum again.

Greg

[peanutgallery]

Michael Schumacher, hands down

Off topic, but certainly a great discussion - who was (or is) the greatest driver of all time? Mario Andretti (my choice, by the way) won at Indy, Daytona, and the F1 championship. The biggest race he didn't win is F1 Monte Carlo. He drove every type of vehicle, in every type of race, with great success. But that was a long time ago, and very similar to cycling at that time. You were expected to race all season long, in all types of races - grand tours, one day races, and the track.

[peanutgallery]

Gurney was huge part of the golden age of American involvement in F1. Godspeed

Along with personalities like Maston Gregory, Richie Ginter, Peter Revson, Andretti and Phil Hill (and others)...they were a huge part of the sport. All the most incredible gentlemen to boot. The US scene is currently reduced to formula sports cars, NASCAR and douchy drivers that pay to race cars with fenders. Sad

[Ken Robb]

Michael Schumacher, hands down

Please don't say "Hands down" because it often translates as "Shut Up!" :)

[Fivethumbs]

My friend had a Dan Gurney Eagle BMX bike in the mid-late 70s. Not this one but similar. It was a cool bike.

[oliver1850]

If you are in LA there is a display of his cars at the Peterson Museum "through January 2018". I'd forgotten that AAR built a CART car in the late 90s, though I remember Alex Barron driving for them. Never knew about the Formula Ford, would like to hear the story. Guessing it may have been built for one of his sons.

http://autoweek.com/article/people/gathering-eagles-dan-gurneys-remarkable-race-cars-new-exhibit

[Bruce K]

There were not a lot of FF but they were produced for sale.

A couple made it to the east coast and ran in SCCA National races.

If memory serves, they were pretty competitive and one year, someone might have grabbed a Nstional Chsmpionship in one.

BK

[bikinchris]

The Cobra Daytona was designed by "Pete Brock"

Yes, that is better. I should Google it.

[oldpotatoe]

No, not any longer. That was actually a brief period for rear wings, in the early days of aerodynamic designs. They were incredibly dangerous, and caused a few devastating accidents, when they broke and collapsed at speed, instantly reducing downforce when it was most needed. Graham Hill was almost killed in one incident in an F1 car. They were made illegal in all forms of racing, and all moved to fixed wings and bodywork, which, is now, as you say, ubiquitous.

Didn't know that, thanks..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQbgSe9S54I

[Mr. Pink]

Ha, that's crazy. I remember when that happened, and it wasn't the only time. Such is the hazard of the rollers on the Mulsane with a ground effects sports car.

Nascar cars has a similar problem when they got turned around backwards at speed during a spin. The car would just take off and fly. They solved it with a flap on the roof that only pops up in that situation. Check it out the next time you're finishing off a six pack watching Daytona, and they have one of those twenty car pileup that America waits all winter for.

[GregL]

No, not any longer. That was actually a brief period for rear wings, in the early days of aerodynamic designs. They were incredibly dangerous, and caused a few devastating accidents, when they broke and collapsed at speed, instantly reducing downforce when it was most needed. Graham Hill was almost killed in one incident in an F1 car. They were made illegal in all forms of racing, and all moved to fixed wings and bodywork, which, is now, as you say, ubiquitous.
And even with the fixed wings, there were still some spectacular flips when air got under ground effects cars. A Can Am car flipped at the top of the uphill at Lime Rock back in the early 1980s. I was at the Memorial Day weekend IMSA race at Lime Rock in 1987 and watched Al Holbert pull a wheelie (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/a12774112/watch-a-porsche-962-pull-a-wheelie/)in the same spot in a Porsche 962. My best friend Dave and I just looked at each with our jaws dropped, simply amazed that Holbert's car didn't go airborne. Shortly thereafter a chicane was added to the corner to prevent unplanned flying lessons. Even fast street cars unweighted their suspensions on that section of the track!

Greg

[bthornt]

A very nice memorial about Gurney from Road & Track magazine if you follow this link: http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a15334401/dan-gurney-in-memoriam/

[choke]

And even with the fixed wings, there were still some spectacular flips when air got under ground effects cars. A Can Am car flipped at the top of the uphill at Lime Rock back in the early 1980s. I was at the Memorial Day weekend IMSA race at Lime Rock in 1987 and watched Al Holbert pull a wheelie (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/a12774112/watch-a-porsche-962-pull-a-wheelie/)in the same spot in a Porsche 962. My best friend Dave and I just looked at each with our jaws dropped, simply amazed that Holbert's car didn't go airborne. Shortly thereafter a chicane was added to the corner to prevent unplanned flying lessons. Even fast street cars unweighted their suspensions on that section of the track!

GregI don't think that anything compares to the Flugplatz at the 'Ring when it comes to getting cars airborne....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWCfYV6fVtU

[oliver1850]

And even with the fixed wings, there were still some spectacular flips when air got under ground effects cars. A Can Am car flipped at the top of the uphill at Lime Rock back in the early 1980s. I was at the Memorial Day weekend IMSA race at Lime Rock in 1987 and watched Al Holbert pull a wheelie (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/a12774112/watch-a-porsche-962-pull-a-wheelie/)in the same spot in a Porsche 962. My best friend Dave and I just looked at each with our jaws dropped, simply amazed that Holbert's car didn't go airborne. Shortly thereafter a chicane was added to the corner to prevent unplanned flying lessons. Even fast street cars unweighted their suspensions on that section of the track!

Greg

Our 5L Chevron CanAm got airborn at Road Atlanta in 1982 but didn't go over. Seems to me someone had a flip in a 917-10 at the same spot, can't recall who it was - Charlie Kemp, Milt Minter, George Follmer? Anyone remember?

[Bruce K]

I was at Lime Rock Park as captain of the roving corner crew when that flip happened. We relieved the crew at that station because they were so shaken by what they had seen.

I have a poster of the motor drive photo sequence of that flip.

Fortunately, the driver was able to pretty much walk away.

BK

[oliver1850]

Two cars crashed heavily at that event. One was Claude Gou in a Lola T333 CS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS8Nd-mtZm0

The other was Phil Compton in the brand new VDS 003. I don't know if he flipped or something else happened. Do you remember Bruce?

[Bruce K]

I’m pretty sure it was Compton.

If I remember correctly, VDS was a relatively new team and he was short on seat time in the cars. It was a very windy day and they were warned at the drivers meeting to back off going over the top of the hill heading for West Bend. He chose to test that warning and as the nose lifted it caught too much air. The car rose completely off the ground, almost straight up and then landed flat, upside down, going backwards. It ended up almost all the way down to the corner before it stopped.

During the slide that followed, his helmet was literally peeled off his head (poor fit + loose chin strap) and rolled out from under the car as it came to rest. He was fine, once they were able to lift the car a bit, but everyone though he had been decapitated at first.

A friend of ours was on station and there is a picture of her gently kicking the helmet to check.

Suffice to say, folks were pretty shaken up.

I also think I posted a picture of some of the photo sequence at one point as I know we’ve talked about this before.

BK

[peanutgallery]

On the back straight after 6 and 7?
Seen it happen there a few times when cars hit a little rise when too close to another car and lose down force. Happened a few times the first few years of petit lemans


Our 5L Chevron CanAm got airborn at Road Atlanta in 1982 but didn't go over. Seems to me someone had a flip in a 917-10 at the same spot, can't recall who it was - Charlie Kemp, Milt Minter, George Follmer? Anyone remember?

[Bruce K]

That’s the place.

I believe this was the incident that finally pushed Skip and Mike to add the chicane

BK

[peanutgallery]

Open wheel cars were bottoming out where it kicked up to go under the bridge. That was scary in an ITC Rabbit, couldn't imagine a real car. At the time the plan was to attract Indy cars or F1

The chicane really changed the nature of the track and added a neat little spot to pass. Great place to drink beer and watch the mayhem of a gaggle of spec Miatas attempt to outbrake each other... all without cheater parts of course


That’s the place.

I believe this was the incident that finally pushed Skip and Mike to add the chicane

BK

[Bruce K]

Funny, my Formula Vee never did that. :rolleyes:

It was a pretty exhilarating ride lapping that place at a little under 1:00 on those skinny little tires!

Pretty much terrifying doing a 1:01 in a Bugeye. :eek:

BK

[peanutgallery]

That bugeye was probably the source of that oil slick that sent me off the track:)

Funny, my Formula Vee never did that. :rolleyes:

It was a pretty exhilarating ride lapping that place at a little under 1:00 on those skinny little tires!

Pretty much terrifying doing a 1:01 in a Bugeye. :eek:

BK

[Bruce K]

Not likely. At 13:1 compression that the bag was a hand Grenada. Went like stink until either the rings gave out or a rod bearing did!:eek:

Besides, I don’t think you were racing in ‘78.....:rolleyes:

BK

[Plum Hill]

Saw a Gurney reference in RBA yesterday, so went Googling and found this: https://mobile.twitter.com/rideshimano/status/910884875636527104 .

More on the BMX bikes: http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/dan_gurney/ .

[oliver1850]

Wish the pics were better/less cluttered. Certainly looks low and in a good position to cheat the wind.