Not loving the PSAs

[Kontact]

I don't know about most Paceline users, but I hit New Posts to check what's going on. And a lot of the time the majority of new posts are in the classifieds, and close to half of those posts are PSAs.

I get it - we all love bikes and like to live vicariously through our fellows. So when a bike just like the one we have and love comes up we want to tell people about it with a PSA.

But as a person who sometimes spends the time searching out a rare model or a good price, it is a bit annoying to do the work and then have someone with no skin in the game advertising what you're bidding on to a group of people who didn't care enough to search it out themselves, and who are suddenly bidding against you.

I can see liking PSAs if you're one of those people that wants to protect used bike prices, but they are just clotting the Classifieds. It's great to inform someone with a WTB about a deal you've seen, but as a general announcement; I don't know who is really benefiting, aside from the seller. Which is also ridiculous because if the seller wanted to post their ad directly on Paceline, we wouldn't let them, yet their ad can get reprinted here via PSA.

[brewsmith]

Good points made.

Having personally benefitted from some PSA's posted here, yet also felt the outrage at seeing a bargain I had 'scouted', outed, I can see both sides of the coin here....

[bob heinatz]

Yes you have made some valid points but sometimes it is a matter of luck when you find a great deal on a fantastic bike. It can also be a downer when you just missed out on a perfect bike. The internet has opened up a new way to buy a bike whether it is new or old. In addition it has helped you reach customers selling your fine saddle.

[Kontact]

Yes you have made some valid points but sometimes it is a matter of luck when you find a great deal on a fantastic bike. It can also be a downer when you just missed out on a perfect bike. The internet has opened up a new way to buy a bike whether it is new or old. In addition it has helped you reach customers selling your fine saddle.

Maybe I need people posting Kontact PSAs to change my foul attitude. :)

If getting good deals was so important, the forum wouldn't make it hard for new people to post ads. Which is why it seems odd to allow PSAs to non-member ads.

[Clean39T]

I get wanting to have a way for PSAs and WTBs to not be clogging up the main classifieds, and I’d support a sub-forum for each of those two - or an attempt to use categories for stickies (ex. the “big bikes” thread).

That said, I think the argument that people shouldn’t share interesting or unique items with their friends because someone else wants to lowball-bid a seller to be more than a little selfish and counter to the spirit of an enthusiast forum.

If you find something rare and you want it, go ahead and buy it. No one gets to call “dibs” on the internet - it’s an open market and until you buy, or make an agreement with the buyer, you’re taking a chance there’s some other Campy loving person in outer Mongolia considering hitting the BIN button at the same time you are...or emailing a CL listing...or scooping up Silca bits on sale.

And when it comes to auctions, who says one person has a right to decide their best-offer should win (and the seller should get less money) when someone else values the item more and has a higher best-offer?

I’ve posted more than a handful of PSAs over the year I’ve been here, and have done so because I thought (and still do) it was a friendly thing to do. And in so doing, have united more than a handful of folks with bikes and other bits that I assume they are happy to have been alerted to...and I’ve been on the receiving end of the same.

Ultimately, it’s up to the mods. If they say “no more PSAs”, then so be it. Until then, we’ll just have to let the internet become what it becomes based on the interests of its users - and the PSAs will either increase because people participate in the threads and find value, or else they’ll slowly fade away if that’s not the case.

IMHO, and nothing personal.

[cadence90]

I have long advocated the following Marketplace Forum/Sub-Forum organization, which I think would be much more clean as well as "fair":

Marketplace
Classifieds (Cycling Products)
FS (For Sale)
WTB (Want To Buy)
PSA

Vendors

Until then, I will accept the PSAs where they are. I think that perhaps more members appreciate the PSAs than not.

....

But as a person who sometimes spends the time searching out a rare model or a good price, it is a bit annoying to do the work and then have someone with no skin in the game advertising what you're bidding on to a group of people who didn't care enough to search it out themselves, and who are suddenly bidding against you.

I can see liking PSAs if you're one of those people that wants to protect used bike prices, but they are just clotting the Classifieds. It's great to inform someone with a WTB about a deal you've seen, but as a general announcement; I don't know who is really benefiting, aside from the seller. Which is also ridiculous because if the seller wanted to post their ad directly on Paceline, we wouldn't let them, yet their ad can get reprinted here via PSA.
Frankly, I don't understand the "protect my research", "free advertising", etc., stances, and these seem a bit precious. If I see a bicycle or component that I think might be of interest to the community at large for sale somewhere, why should I have to take the secret preferences of others into account at all prior to posting a PSA? In any case, I would bet that many of us have very similar eBay, DailyLister, etc., saved searches.

What irks me more regarding the current Classifieds is sellers bumping their own posts constantly (every 12 hours or even less :rolleyes:); sellers stating "SOLD!!!" as a new post (thus bumping their no-longer-available listing to the top :rolleyes:) rather than simply editing their title/post #1; and all the inane ("Wish it was my size!", "Nice bike, bro!", etc., :rolleyes:) comments which do the same thing while also providing zero value.

Weight Weenies is a great model for a Classifieds format:
1) Sellers must post details, prices, AND photos.
2) NO comments, etc., are allowed (all questions/transactions are conducted via PM).
Very, very clean and elegant.
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[Kontact]

I don't really understand how a thread entitled "PSA - I wish this Klein was my size" is different than the post to an ad "Great bike, I wish this Klein was my size".


As far as this idea of "protected research" goes, no one needs the forum to do them any favors. I was just illustrating how it can be annoying to have disinterested third parties involved in the buying process - little different than someone making annoying comments in a sale ad.

Forumites can and should share interesting things they see on the net, but that isn't what is happening with Classifieds. People read the Classifieds to buy things, not of edification.

[BobC]

Complete bystander opinion. Just my lowly 2 cents on the dollar.

I think most of the PSAs offered are in a community spirit, as are many of the comments (often offering support, assistance if local or warning orders if someone thinks the seller/good is not legit).

I get that sometimes we might upset if you have discovered that an item you wanted now is visible to the paceline community, but in the end it is just a bike or bike part.

Finally, Clean, lets talk when you decide to finally exhale that tremendous collection of bikes. It is impressive! :banana:

[R3awak3n]

Its not the PSAs that are bad but the bad PSAs that are bad. Anyone can do a craigslist search so why post the results here?

Although I like the idea cadence90 presented, I do think wtb and fs should stay in the same place or I suspect less people will go to the wtb and that subforum will not work as well.

[alancw3]

Complete bystander opinion. Just my lowly 2 cents on the dollar.

I think most of the PSAs offered are in a community spirit, as are many of the comments (often offering support, assistance if local or warning orders if someone thinks the seller/good is not legit).

I get that sometimes we might upset if you have discovered that an item you wanted now is visible to the paceline community, but in the end it is just a bike or bike part.

Finally, Clean, lets talk when you decide to finally exhale that tremendous collection of bikes. It is impressive! :banana:

+1 this topic has been discussed here before. imho the original post here was from a purely selfish self severing point of view. psa"s have always been part of the forum and again imho well received and appreciated in the spirit of helping other forum members. i suggest if someone has a problem with then then they simply don't read them. problem solved!!!

[cadence90]

I don't really understand how a thread entitled "PSA - I wish this Klein was my size" is different than the post to an ad "Great bike, I wish this Klein was my size".
If we are splitting hairs I suppose that those two versions could be read in a similar manner.

In either case, if a great Klein has been PSA'd, and someone here benefits from that, does it really matter whether they have been alerted to it in post #1 ("PSA - I wish this Klein was my size") or in post #8 ("Great bike, I wish this Klein was my size")?

As far as this idea of "protected research" goes, no one needs the forum to do them any favors. I was just illustrating how it can be annoying to have disinterested third parties involved in the buying process - little different than someone making annoying comments in a sale ad.Annoying to whom, exactly? At least some PF members, and perhaps more, appear to be appreciative of PSAs, rather than annoyed.

Well-intentioned PSAs are not at all comparable to "annoying comments in a sale ad". Those posting a PSA are not "involved in the buying process" by definition; they are minimally involved in the advertising process, period. They are also disinterested by one definition (acquisition, etc.) only, but not the other (no interest or feeling at all). This Croll mtb (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=216192) does not fit me, and so I would never buy it; it is still a nice bicycle, for a good price, and so of course I would be happy if another PF member might see it, maybe buy it, and maybe be happy...hence my sole interest in posting the PSA. If you liked it, you might have bought it by now....

Forumites can and should share interesting things they see on the net, but that isn't what is happening with Classifieds. People read the Classifieds to buy things, not of edification.
Again, I do not feel that the distinction is quite so black-and-white.

Charles (cnighbor1) posts Classifieds PSAs here all the time. I read them (even though they have often already appeared in my emails from BOBlist); I have yet to buy a single item from these PSAs; and yet much of the time I do learn something from them.
Not a bad deal at all, for a few free moments of my spare time, right?

Get off your junk: wwwkontactbikecom
Finally, as "bob heinatz" pointed out above, every time you reply to a post you are in effect PSAing your own business via your signature line, without being listed in either the "Vendors" section of the Classifieds or among the banner-ad sponsors. Talk about free advertising.... "No harm, no foul" imo, and more power to you in your ventures. But while nobody, including myself, is complaining at all about any of that, the tangential irony is clear.
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[bicycletricycle]

I like them, it’s like I have a spy network.

I have had something I was bidding on on eBay outed in a PSA, so what, it was a public listing in the first place.

[Bruce K]

A couple of things:

1- We’ve discussed this a bunch of times and, at the moment, we are not inclined to add more sub forums

2- Like many things here, if you don't like the PSAs, just skip/ignore them

3- We try to keep the “one liners” and negative replies to Classifieds to a minimum but the PSA situation is not likely to change any time soon

BK

[alancw3]

A couple of things:

1- We’ve discussed this a bunch of times and, at the moment, we are not inclined to add more sub forums

2- Like many things here, if you don't like the PSAs, just skip/ignore them

3- We try to keep the “one liners” and negative replies to Classifieds to a minimum but the PSA situation is not likely to change any time soon

BK

thanks bruce. read my prior post as it basically mirrors exactly what you said. let us be finished with this topic.

[NYCfixie]

As a relative newcomer....

1 - Use better subjects no matter FS, WTB, or PSA (because it is just good internet manners)

2 - PSAs are annoying when they are "noise" in what might be a less "noisy" classifieds section. Section them out so those that do not want them can ignore them (or do not allow them).

3 - Why allow responses to classifieds (the cool bike bro response is not helpful and just clogs up threads and the section)? Paceline allows so many PMs (unlike across the hall) so there really is no need to respond in the thread anyway if you are interested. If the seller finds they are answering the same question over and over via PMs they can just update the thread

4 - Do not allow "bumps" or enforce a 48 hour rule. Again, bumping every few hours is annoying. It is 2018 and the search feature is really good so do we, as buyers, really need a bump from a seller? Do these bumps from sellers really make things sell faster? Consider both sides people as many forum users are buyers and sellers.

5 - See suggestion 1. Please, Please, Please use better subjects.


I get wanting to have a way for PSAs and WTBs to not be clogging up the main classifieds, and I’d support a sub-forum for each of those two - or an attempt to use categories for stickies (ex. the “big bikes” thread).


I have long advocated the following Marketplace Forum/Sub-Forum organization, which I think would be much more clean as well as "fair":

Marketplace
Classifieds (Cycling Products)
FS (For Sale)
WTB (Want To Buy)
PSA

Vendors


What irks me more regarding the current Classifieds is sellers bumping their own posts constantly (every 12 hours or even less :rolleyes:); sellers stating "SOLD!!!" as a new post (thus bumping their no-longer-available listing to the top :rolleyes:) rather than simply editing their title/post #1; and all the inane ("Wish it was my size!", "Nice bike, bro!", etc., :rolleyes:) comments which do the same thing while also providing zero value.

Weight Weenies is a great model for a Classifieds format:
1) Sellers must post details, prices, AND photos.
2) NO comments, etc., are allowed (all questions/transactions are conducted via PM).
Very, very clean and elegant.
.
.

I don't know about most Paceline users, but I hit New Posts to check what's going on. And a lot of the time the majority of new posts are in the classifieds, and close to half of those posts are PSAs.

[NHAero]

Like having the FS and WTB in the same forum - fewer to check. Don't mind PSA posts at all, not particularly annoyed by "wish it were a 43cm headtube" comments, etc., in FS ads. Appreciate not having commercial vendors getting a pass to post in Classified, too.
Not everything in life has to be so tightly controlled as to need a 100 page manual to avoid transgressions :) Thanks Mods for all of your not-so-common sense and light hand on the steering wheel!

[bmeryman]

Is there a back end way to auto-ignore threads with PSA in the title?

Personally, I like seeing them and I like that all the classifieds are in one section (even if it gets a bit cluttered sometimes). I don't know all that much about modifying end user experience on message boards, but it would be nice if a user could change what their personal experience is.

[Clean39T]

RE: “Bumps” — I thought the norm was you only bump if: 1. Price reduction, 2. New inventory in original listing. I think that’s what I do - may be guilty of a “it’s been a week, refresh it” a few times too though.

[AngryScientist]

lol.

sorry kontact - but the concept that PSA's here are bad because they may "out" an item you are bidding on is literally laughable. further that others dont "deserve" to find the item because of all the work you did with research and searching is even funnier.

the sad truth is that the internet killed the good old days of "barn finds".

[jtbadge]

I’d be more worried about having such an aggresive tone in most posts while promoting your brand in your signature.

[DRZRM]

Perfect snowy winter topic, I enjoyed it last year, I look forward to reading it again next year. As someone who is guilty of "Nice bike! GLWS!" or "Glad its not my size." To me I'm just free bumping a nice bike or someone I like or respect in the forums bike back onto the front page so they don't have to.

I think the search feature here is not perfect, and often (unfortunately) my purchases are not of things I'm necessarily looking for, but things I happen across and suddenly realize I need. Also, I think that many folks here don't dig deeper than the first page or two, so yeah I bet bumps do make a big difference, though I personally think that if your things are not selling, you should really be dropping your prices.

I do wish people would use more detailed titles, put a size and maybe aa price in there. Teasers are not helping you sell your frame.

But the most important thing anyone said above is that there is no need to bump, SOLD. It is just putting unavailable things back on the front page. Just edit your title in ADVANCED.

All in all, the mods do a great--thankless--job. I don't feel like we need more rules or subforums, folks could just be a bit more thoughtful.

Oh, and mostly PSAs rock.

As a relative newcomer....

3 - Why allow responses to classifieds (the cool bike bro response is not helpful and just clogs up threads and the section)? Paceline allows so many PMs (unlike across the hall) so there really is no need to respond in the thread anyway if you are interested. If the seller finds they are answering the same question over and over via PMs they can just update the thread

4 - Do not allow "bumps" or enforce a 48 hour rule. Again, bumping every few hours is annoying. It is 2018 and the search feature is really good so do we, as buyers, really need a bump from a seller? Do these bumps from sellers really make things sell faster? Consider both sides people as many forum users are buyers and sellers.

5 - See suggestion 1. Please, Please, Please use better subjects.

[AngryScientist]

i agree that PSAs rock.

just look at that SWEETpink orange fade Serotta Providence here picked up due to my PSA. perfect example of a great PSA success story!

i would also wholeheartedly agree that better titles would be helpful for everyone!

[Elefantino]

I like them, it’s like I have a spy network.

I have had something I was bidding on on eBay outed in a PSA, so what, it was a public listing in the first place.
And ... drop the microphone.

[Hilltopperny]

PSA is a great tool and I have picked up my fair share of deals because of them. Every once in a while it drives up the price when the psa is an eBay item. It is what it is as I was thinking about purchasing the 40th anniversary meivici before a psa outed it. The current price with over 24 hours to go is now over two grand. I guess I'm going to wait until a more appropriately priced ottrott or meivici comes along in 54cm...

[OtayBW]

Seems like the initial premise here was that the PSAs, etc. dilute things when using the 'new post' function. An easy solution is to avoid using the 'new post' function and to just go directly into whatever sub-forum you're interested. Unread/new posts are highlighted. I have no problem with the PSAs.

[bicycletricycle]

I’d be more worried about having such an aggresive tone in most posts while promoting your brand in your signature.

This is a great comment.

[FlashUNC]

You take away PSAs, I think you'd take away a legit hobby for a half dozen people here. That's all they seem to do is hunt the interwebs for stuff.

Some Google Fu ain't gonna be the path to some exclusive deal man.

[Ken Robb]

I agree that we have a lot of PSAs but as long as they are so identified with general description of the item in the headline I only have to read ones that interest me.

I would suggest that some folks who are offended by PSAs are those who are always looking for good deals on many different items. This might be because they like to flip things or they just like to try many different bikes and components while not spending much $$$.

I'll bet there have been some cases where a Forumite who doesn't routinely make wide checks of ads has found a bike he always admired for sale through a PSA. My opinion is that PSAs have more positive aspects than negative ones.

[cmbicycles]

I think the discussions that take place in classified ads here are just a part of the culture of this forum, IMHO it's better for it. If you just want the facts and only the facts with no comments there are already forums for you out there. We discuss bikes/items, sometimes harass the seller (mostly good natured), clarify details or history on items as well. It's all good and if you waste a minute reading it, well you've only lost a minute.

[kppolich]

It would be a lot easier if there were "stickys" for

SMALL BIKE PSA's (50cm and below)
MEDIUM BIKE PSA's (54cm and below)
LARGE BIKE PSA's (56-58cm)
XL BIKE PSA's (60cm and up)

then people could just update the thread instead of creating a whole new post.

[akelman]

We should have a sub-forum for things I like.

And a sub-forum for things I don't like.

In fact, the whole world should mirror my preferences. Why doesn't it?

[Kontact]

lol.

sorry kontact - but the concept that PSA's here are bad because they may "out" an item you are bidding on is literally laughable. further that others dont "deserve" to find the item because of all the work you did with research and searching is even funnier.

the sad truth is that the internet killed the good old days of "barn finds".

What is "literally laughable" is that a non-member can post an Ebay ad and have it PSA'd here, but that same person couldn't register and immediately post their item for sale on Paceline.

What a bizarre double standard to say that the primary purpose of Paceline is not the classifieds, and then choke the classifieds with links to non-member sales.



Do I ever call your opinions "laughable", BTW? Or is that one of those "community" things I keep hearing about? Rude.

[Kontact]

I’d be more worried about having such an aggresive tone in most posts while promoting your brand in your signature.

This is a great comment.

What post of mine in this thread is "aggressive"? Or is this just taking a personal swipe at me because you disagree with the topic?

[Burnette]

What is "literally laughable" is that a non-member can post an Ebay ad and have it PSA'd here, but that same person couldn't register and immediately post their item for sale on Paceline.

What a bizarre double standard to say that the primary purpose of Paceline is not the classifieds, and then choke the classifieds with links to non-member sales.



Do I ever call your opinions "laughable", BTW? Or is that one of those "community" things I keep hearing about? Rude.

I think you're taking this way too personal. It is indeed laughable because the very nature of internet swap and sales sites is that it's an open to all venue. To say you want to hide a sale ad or offer is just funny, cause they aren't designed or intended to work that way.

To believe that you alone posses and own and have sole rights to a public auction just because you found it is to not understand how this works. Public. Auctions. That first word there, it's public.

If I go by history I would say that I click on quite a few PSA thread and enjoy them. They are helpful to for those of us who are tall or short (me) by posting bikes or frames we might have missed because they are more rare.

PSAs have shown some interesting finds here. It's what sites like this should be about, the sharing of bike stuff.

[IJWS]

I’d be more worried about having such an aggresive tone in most posts while promoting your brand in your signature.

This, Plus, yes, PSA's are a good thing. If Kontact doesn't want to deal with an enthusiastic community of bike lovers, I would suggest finding another place to hang out on the internet. I'm pretty offended by the OP but whatever, that's enough negativity for one day.

[Hilltopperny]

It's definitely winter around here isn't it?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Kontact]

I think you're taking this way too personal. It is indeed laughable because the very nature of internet swap and sales sites is that it's an open to all venue. To say you want to hide a sale ad or offer is just funny, cause they aren't designed or intended to work that way.

To believe that you alone posses and own and have sole rights to a public auction just because you found it is to not understand how this works. Public. Auctions. That first word there, it's public.

If I go by history I would say that I click on quite a few PSA thread and enjoy them. They are helpful to for those of us who are tall or short (me) by posting bikes or frames we might have missed because they are more rare.

PSAs have shown some interesting finds here. It's what sites like this should be about, the sharing of bike stuff.


This thread wasn't "personal" to me and I am not upset about PSA, I just think they clog up a website that people seem concerned about getting clogged up. We have plenty of discussions about the way the forum functions, especially all the classified traffic, and I attempted to illustrate why PSAs might not be 100% positive for everyone. I have personally never had a Paceline PSA conflict of any type.


But some of the nasty responses to the OP are much more illustrative of certain endemic attitudes on Paceline than how the Classifieds work.

[Burnette]

It's definitely winter around here isn't it?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Oh don't get me started about that SM-G900V phone you got there mister! But yeah, this thread, it's kinda silly but there it is. Hard to believe folks don't get how auction work. And yes, it's cold as heck outside.

[Kontact]

This, Plus, yes, PSA's are a good thing. If Kontact doesn't want to deal with an enthusiastic community of bike lovers, I would suggest finding another place to hang out on the internet. I'm pretty offended by the OP but whatever, that's enough negativity for one day.

What, exactly, was offensive to your person about the OP? I thought I was writing an opinion about how some feature of the forum functions, and you are responding like I'm insulting your religion.

[Burnette]

This thread wasn't "personal" to me and I am not upset about PSA, I just think they clog up a website that people seem concerned about getting clogged up. We have plenty of discussions about the way the forum functions, especially all the classified traffic, and I attempted to illustrate why PSAs might not be 100% positive for everyone. I have personally never had a Paceline PSA conflict of any type.


But some of the nasty responses to the OP are much more illustrative of certain endemic attitudes on Paceline than how the Classifieds work.

Currently there are only three, three PSAs in the classifieds first page so that non issue is dead.

Folks aren't being mean, I think there is genuine surprise at the belief that a public internet auction item shouldn't be allowed to be shared.

And as far as bicycling boards go in the winter time, Paceline is doing as well if not better than the rest.

If you find a problem, it's like that old cliché, "be the change you wish to see" versus stirring the pot. After all, it's just bikes. I think I'll go look at that chocolate crème pie, just look at it, then hit the rollers.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna eat some of that pie, then hit the rollers.

[berserk87]

A couple of things:
2- Like many things here, if you don't like the PSAs, just skip/ignore them
BK

Roger that - CHOICES!

It's a forum for cycling topics (mostly). It's what we do here. You have a choice to read them or not. They aren't polluting the forum to advisedly affect my experience.

My biggest beefs here, as on any forum, are personal attacks on others and folks trying to shut down a legitimate topic because they are annoyed or bored by it. This is one of the better forums around, and frankly, these are not major issues here.

[Kontact]

Currently there are only three, three PSAs in the classifieds first page so that non issue is dead.

Folks aren't being mean, I think there is genuine surprise at the belief that a public internet auction item shouldn't be allowed to be shared.

And as far as bicycling boards go in the winter time, Paceline is doing as well if not better than the rest.

If you find a problem, it's like that old cliché, "be the change you wish to see" versus stirring the pot. After all, it's just bikes. I think I'll go look at that chocolate crème pie, just look at it, then hit the rollers.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna eat some of that pie, then hit the rollers.
Where did I say I want to "hide auctions".

And yes, some people are being personally insulting about this. It isn't a big deal either way, so no one needs to invite me to find another board or find the OP "insulting".

My biggest beefs here, as on any forum, are personal attacks on others and folks trying to shut down a legitimate topic because they are annoyed or bored by it. This is one of the better forums out there, and frankly, these are not major issues here.
+1

[gdw]

I'm not a fan of PSA's as well after having had several local Craigslist purchases impacted after a member living over a 1000 miles away outed the items. In both instances the bikes were originally accurately priced based upon their age and condition but the sudden barrage of emails caused the seller to raise the price several hundred dollars. Neither bike was purchased by one of us although it would have been amusing to read the follow-up posts if someone had bought the Serotta with the bent fork that wasn't obvious in the pictures shown in the ad.

[mhespenheide]

I kinda dig the PSA's, but I do wish that people would be more specific in the title -- to include size, at least. Location or source would be nice, too, but really the size.

[oliver1850]

I like the PSAs as they often make me aware of something I wouldn't have known existed otherwise, like the Performance frame mhespenheide posted and brewsmith facilitated for me. Thanks guys.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2263715&highlight=performance+brewsmith#post2263715

I try to post things that are a bit uncommon or not that well known, like the Croll frame that was picked up by Luwabra last week. Hope I get another chance at it when/if he decides to retire it from his fleet.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=216040&highlight=croll

The bigbike PSAs thread has been pretty popular I think. No reason that similar threads for other sizes couldn't be started. I don't think they need to be stickies.

[Burnette]

I kinda dig the PSA's, but I do wish that people would be more specific in the title -- to include size, at least. Location or source would be nice, too, but really the size.

I like the idea of members providing size in the title, that would be helpful.

And thanks to Paceline for not changing anything. This forum is more open and member friendly than some out there that have imposed archaic rules that have only served to turn them into ghost towns.

[pdmtong]

PSA...to me they are clutter ... that bike YOU think is great? I could care less. Sure, I can skip it. but guess what? my classified just got pushed down even further.

What i see with PSA is the separation between purposeful versus opportunistic buying.

Plenty if you folks have enough parts to build five bikes. PSA goes up...gets you interested, you jump in and buy. Opportunistic.

Meanwhile, the OP has been searching for that hard to find xyz for years...purposeful.

There just isn't any way (nor should there be) to reconcile this with a forum policy.

You want that frame? Then prepare to pay to get it. Free market and all of that.

[54ny77]

I used to find PSA's annoying. Clutters things up. Then I clicked on one per chance and ended up buying it. Boy is it a score.

So I'll shut my pie hole on that topic.

:D

[Mzilliox]

wow, amazing all this. I personally dont like the PSAs or think they at least belong in a sub forum. but i dont care enough... it is what it is.

[kentileguy]

My bike purchases thanks to PSA's here
Kirk Terraplane
Merckx MX Leader
Seven Axiom

[Burnette]

There are still only 3 PSAs in the first page of the Classifieds today. There are 5 WTBs, the rest FS.

From posts here it seems some want Paceline to change policy for purely selfish reasons, to not share auctions they are looking at and to not allow anything make their own post go lower.

I would wager that if your FS post keeps getting pushed off the front page, it's something few want or the price isn't right or both. So the last thing we would want is something like that cluttering up the page either.

Anything Paceline would do to keep your post with that stem that doesn't fit anything that you want way too much for would be to the detriment of the spirit of the forum.

Again, there's only 3 PSAs there now. The genesis of this complaint is purely selfish driven.

[pdmtong]

It's organic. Just like the forum. While I'm not a fan I'm Not losing sleep on PSA / no PSA.

[Kontact]

The genesis of this complaint is purely selfish driven.

It would be nice if a discussion topic could play out on Paceline without the personal jabs.


If I actually had the power to change anything on Paceline, it wouldn't be PSAs but the crummy way some people treat each other while discussing super unimportant topics like Classified ads or frame tubing.

[Burnette]

It would be nice if a discussion topic could play out on Paceline without the personal jabs.


If I actually had the power to change anything on Paceline, it wouldn't be PSAs but the crummy way some people treat each other while discussing super unimportant topics like Classified ads or frame tubing.

No one here is treating you bad. You're taking it way too personal.

The mods say the Classified will stay the way they are and tomorrow will be a new day. Hopefully warmer so we can all get outside.

[Kontact]

No one here is treating you bad. You're taking it way too personal.

The mods say the Classified will stay the way they are and tomorrow will be a new day. Hopefully warmer so we can all get outside.

I'm sure you don't think that referring to someone as "laughable", "aggressive" or "selfish" could possibly be rude in the discussion of a forum policy, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who does.

It was a forum suggestion. If I had pointed out some problem with the blue background some of you would have found a way to make it personal.



And I do not feel "picked on". I feel ashamed of some of the company I keep.

[Burnette]

I'm sure you don't think that referring to someone as "laughable", "aggressive" or "selfish" could possibly be rude in the discussion of a forum policy, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who does.

It was a forum suggestion. If I had pointed out some problem with the blue background some of you would have found a way to make it personal.



And I do not feel "picked on". I feel ashamed of some of the company I keep.

I guess I had a hard enough life to where such slights just roll off of me like water and I re-engage to get my point across.

And again, Paceline has to be one of the most tame bicycle forums I frequent. Props to Paceline crew and members for that. Step out into other cycling forums (I won't name them out of respect, PM me if you want t know the names of a few) with your OP and post it verbatim there and get back to me on how they turn out.

[cadence90]

And I do not feel "picked on". I feel ashamed of some of the company I keep.
You are completely free to not write, post, and then comment in highly subjective threads that will obviously elicit opinions very different from your own from post #2 onward if you are so unhappy with the company.

Or, you can just....
.
.

[Kontact]

You are completely free to not write, post, and then comment in highly subjective threads that will obviously elicit opinions very different from your own from post #2 onward if you are so unhappy with the company.

Or, you can just....
.
.

Everyone is completely free to post or not post whatever opinions, I had just rather thought that those opinions should be about the topic and not the usual personal attacks and passive aggressive Paceline "not insulting enough to get banned" baloney.


If you suggested we change the coffee brand in an office we both worked at and someone called you "selfish" for your suggestion, how would that go over? That's pretty aggressive, crummy behavior. But it is something so commonly tolerated on this board that people will defend the right to be rude.

[Burnette]

Everyone is completely free to post or not post whatever opinions, I had just rather thought that those opinions should be about the topic and not the usual personal attacks and passive aggressive Paceline "not insulting enough to get banned" baloney.


If you suggested we change the coffee brand in an office we both worked at and someone called you "selfish" for your suggestion, how would that go over? That's pretty aggressive, crummy behavior. But it is something so commonly tolerated on this board that people will defend the right to be rude.

Change the coffee brand? How would we get over it? How about easily.

Through your efforts, this thread has now ceased to be about bicycles and this board and has devolved into your feelings and ironically you're now being what you're claiming to be, rather rude to the board and members thereof.

[AngryScientist]

Everyone is completely free to post or not post whatever opinions, I had just rather thought that those opinions should be about the topic and not the usual personal attacks and passive aggressive Paceline "not insulting enough to get banned" baloney.


If you suggested we change the coffee brand in an office we both worked at and someone called you "selfish" for your suggestion, how would that go over? That's pretty aggressive, crummy behavior. But it is something so commonly tolerated on this board that people will defend the right to be rude.

Hi Kontact,

I've thought about your postings lately and i would like to offer a genuine, constructive response:

First off, if I offended you personally by calling your original posting philosophy "laughable", i do genuinely apologize, it wasnt my intent to insult you or treat you crummily. I said that in absolutely dead pan serious fashion.

if you and i were having a drink in person following a ride and you said to me: "Hey Nick, you know, i think we should ban PSA listings because i think they may artificially inflate the price of rare, sought after items that some members may be interested in, and who may have worked hard to find on their own" - I would have chuckled a bit, and told you you were probably right, but we cant ban PSAs because of that.

The next thing i'd like to mention is that it's difficult to moderate a forum of this size. we have members from their teenage years to their late 70's, maybe older. from minimum wage workers to millionaires, and in all walks of life and everywhere in between. the vernaculars are different, the common practices are different, and what may offend you is just fun friendly "ribbing" to someone else. you say that if you could change anything here it would be "how crummy people are treated". Gosh, that sounds easy, but it is NOT!

just like my example from myself above, i was joking with you, or i thought i was calling your idea laughable, but you were offended. it was just a difference of intentions, how do you moderate that?

on the topic of PSAs, i think they are more a benefit here than a detriment. yes, sometimes they clog the forum, and yes, sometimes they are worthless, but they have done a lot of members a lot of good over the years too. i know for certain there are a few retired folks here who have sizable bike collections and surf the net for deals and interesting frames daily. if they find something interesting to them, they post it here as a PSA. it's part of their daily routine and their hobby - is it right to tell them that they cant do that here anymore?

the mods here have been at this for a good long time, and we do take a look at how we do things regularly to see if there are any changes that make sense for the bulk majority of the forum. i think we also try very hard to make it a comfortable, safe place for everyone. it's not easy, we're not perfect, and we cant police every posting though.

again, if i offended you, i'm sorry - not my intention, but if you took it that way - my apologies to you.

[Kontact]

Hi Kontact,

I've thought about your postings lately and i would like to offer a genuine, constructive response:

First off, if I offended you personally by calling your original posting philosophy "laughable", i do genuinely apologize, it wasnt my intent to insult you or treat you crummily. I said that in absolutely dead pan serious fashion.

if you and i were having a drink in person following a ride and you said to me: "Hey Nick, you know, i think we should ban PSA listings because i think they may artificially inflate the price of rare, sought after items that some members may be interested in, and who may have worked hard to find on their own" - I would have chuckled a bit, and told you you were probably right, but we cant ban PSAs because of that.

The next thing i'd like to mention is that it's difficult to moderate a forum of this size. we have members from their teenage years to their late 70's, maybe older. from minimum wage workers to millionaires, and in all walks of life and everywhere in between. the vernaculars are different, the common practices are different, and what may offend you is just fun friendly "ribbing" to someone else. you say that if you could change anything here it would be "how crummy people are treated". Gosh, that sounds easy, but it is NOT!

just like my example from myself above, i was joking with you, or i thought i was calling your idea laughable, but you were offended. it was just a difference of intentions, how do you moderate that?

on the topic of PSAs, i think they are more a benefit here than a detriment. yes, sometimes they clog the forum, and yes, sometimes they are worthless, but they have done a lot of members a lot of good over the years too. i know for certain there are a few retired folks here who have sizable bike collections and surf the net for deals and interesting frames daily. if they find something interesting to them, they post it here as a PSA. it's part of their daily routine and their hobby - is it right to tell them that they cant do that here anymore?

the mods here have been at this for a good long time, and we do take a look at how we do things regularly to see if there are any changes that make sense for the bulk majority of the forum. i think we also try very hard to make it a comfortable, safe place for everyone. it's not easy, we're not perfect, and we cant police every posting though.

again, if i offended you, i'm sorry - not my intention, but if you took it that way - my apologies to you.

Angry, it's fine. Had your comment been the only one along those lines I would have simply let it pass.


And I don't expect the moderators to remote control the behavior of the membership. Paceline has a certain standard of maturity that is largely self imposed by the membership. And because of that the trolling that is common on other forums is largely absent.

However, on those other forums that trolls are clearly treated as such, and anyone who peppers their posts with personal swipes is not going to have 3 other members sticking up for them.

So we can all be mature and collegiate, or we can throw the veneer of politeness away. But I don't think we should be nasty and then congratulate ourselves on not being as bad as brand X.


So in the spirit of the self regulating forum Paceline is supposed to be, I'm pointing out that making this stuff personal sucks, is rude and causes benign topics to go into multiple pages of equivocation.

[AngryScientist]

So in the spirit of the self regulating forum Paceline is supposed to be, I'm pointing out that making this stuff personal sucks, is rude and causes benign topics to go into multiple pages of equivocation.

i agree. we are the first line of defense in keeping the forum great. self moderation and holding ourselves and our postings to a high standard is the best course of action and everyone can pitch in.

since this thread is no longer about the merit of PSA postings, it is closed. as always, good discussion.