help with framebuilder dispute

[david]

need some help here.

i'm having a problem with a framebuilder and i'd like some advice on how to resolve it. (for the time being, i'd like to keep names out of this. rest assured, the framebuilder is not a regular contributor to this site.)

i own a beautiful early 80s frame built by a guy who is no longer building.
i'm the original owner and it's the bike i used to race many years ago. it has sentimental value and it's irreplaceable.

about a year ago, i decided it was time to have the bike restored. since the original builder is retired, i called the bike shop where i bought the frame and asked if they could make a recommendation. the shop gave me the name of a guy who had been working with the original builder. so i spoke with this guy and sent him the frame.

he was busy and i was not first in line, but after several weeks time he was able to get to the frame and after inspecting the frame he told me it needed a new fork. it also need some small dents repaired, some work on the seat cluster and new paint.

couple weeks later the bike was ready and he told me it would be $667. i sent him the money via paypal in february. i still haven't received the frame. i've sent him numerous emails and left several voicemails, none of which have been returned.

i've spoken with the bike shop and they said they've been having problems with him too.

i contacted paypal, but they have a 45 day window in which you have to make a claim. my bad for not jumping on this, but i guess i was just hoping this guy would get his act together sooner or later.

i suppose i was also somewhat hesitant to get into a heated dispute with this guy because he did, after all, have possession of something that was important to me and irreplaceable.

so, i left him another voice and email this morning. i told him that i really want the bike back. or, at least, my money. i mentioned that if i didn't hear from him, that i would be compelled to warn others about my eperience with him, this time naming name and using the full reach of bicycle-related message boards like this one.

anybody have any thoughts on how to proceed? would it be over the line for me to take my experience public?

thanks

[David Kirk]

You are in tough place. I'm sorry to say that but there it is.

I think your actions at this point depend on what results you hope for. If you want the bike/money back then I doubt going public (or the threat of doing so) will be a great motivator for him. He'll just get pissed and become more stuborn. I assume that you aren't anywhere near this guy or you'd have banged on his door by now. That's the only way I can see you'll get your bike/money back.

If you're thinking that your stuff is gone and you more want to warn others about the guy then, assuming you've exhausted all options in getting satisfaction, I wouldn't hesitate sharing your story with others.

It's a crappy place to be.........you can't MAKE the guy do anything.

How were your converstaions with him prior to this happening. Did he seem cool then?

Dave

[weisan]

Write him a passionately expressed letter. Appeal to his good side. Offer your sincere help. I think he will get it eventually.

[J.Greene]

www.southwest.com

JG

[david]

dave,

thanks for the input.

when i first spoke with him on the phone, he seemed cool.

we communicated by email after that. the last i heard from him was when he asked for payment and said he was ready to send the frame back to me.

since payment, nothing. i can't get him on the phone and i get no response from emails.

i was concerned about the bike, but also wondered if something had happened to him. was he ill? was he having financial trouble?

so i voice and emailed him saying that if he was having a problem all he had to do was let me know. i was willing to be patient, all i wanted was to know that my bike was okay and that i'd get it back at some point. i told him i'd be happy to take the bike back as is, even if he hadn't completed the job.

again, nothing. that's when i called the bike shop. at that point, they told me they were having trouble with him, that he had become unresponsive even to them, and that they had "lost a lot of money because of him." this, by the way, is an excellent shop and they even feature his frames on their website.

and, yes, he and i are on different coasts otherwise i would have dropped by to see if i could just pick up the frame and be done with it.

it is a bummer. i've been thinking that the guy just bailed on his business. but his website shows a photo of him at a bicycle event in his area just this summer. looks like he has some sort of booth set up.

i've been patient. probably too patient. i've tried to be understanding. and you're right that if i get tough and threatening, it'll probably just make him mad. but if he cares at all about his business and his reputation, then that might be my only leverage.

[david]

just got an email from the builder saying he's shipping my frame either today or monday.
i'm hopeful.
keep your fingers crossed!
thanks

[billrick]

No need to post a name, but post a city and state.

I bet one of the forum members would be willing to stop by on your behalf and say in a friendly manner, "Hey, what's up?" You can handle it by PM. Considering the crowd that hangs out here, good chance you will find someone who personally knows this builder. If it is in my neighborhood, I'll do it myself.

:)

[Keith A]

I was going to post just what billrick has stated. If you don't get the frame back shortly, then do post the city & state and see if anyone is nearby that would be willing to visit the shop. Then you could follow up with the forum member with the details and still keep the builder's name out of the public eye.

BTW, what's the frame that is being repaired?

[William]

Is he in Rhode Island? :D I'm available.




William

[david]

billrick and keith,

thanks. that's a good idea. if i don't get the frame, i'll try to find a forum member in the area.
however, i did just hear back from the builder and he said he's sending it out monday.
i'd rather not mention the name of the frame, since it might be a tip off to the guy i'm dealing with now.
thanks

[atmo]

you need a framebuilderwhisperer atmo

[David Kirk]

you need a framebuilderwhisperer atmo

nah....you can do it yourself....

Put your builder on a short leash (choke collar pulled up right hehind the ears) and take him for walks twice a day....45 miunutes minimum. And remember the he needs to be in a calm submissive state before you pay him.

Ceasar rules.

Dave

[1centaur]

coincidence that this thread comes up and you get a communication?

[dirtdigger88]

nah....you can do it yourself....

Put your builder on a short leash (choke collar pulled up right hehind the ears) and take him for walks twice a day....45 miunutes minimum. And remember the he needs to be in a calm submissive state before you pay him.

Ceasar rules.

Dave

Dave- I think you are showing you kinky side here-

not that there is anything wrong with kinky- or leashes- or choke collars

well you know what i mean

Jason

[Ginger]

Hey, if it worked, it worked.

Let's all hope David gets a tracking number on Monday for his frameinabox.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . he always stands ready to help! ;)

BBD

[Keith A]

i'd rather not mention the name of the frame, since it might be a tip off to the guy i'm dealing with now.No problem. I didn't think there was any recognizable connection between your frame and the current builder which is why I thought it was safe to ask the question -- but I guess I was wrong.

[mflaherty37]

just got an email from the builder saying he's shipping my frame either today or monday.
i'm hopeful.
keep your fingers crossed!
thanks

...and I was just going to suggest he may have croaked.

[david]

keith, no problem with asking. the connection isn't super-recognizable. but there are probably a few out there who could put it together.

No problem. I didn't think there was any recognizable connection between your frame and the current builder which is why I thought it was safe to ask the question -- but I guess I was wrong.

[CarbonCycles]

If the frame is being sent out, you shoud ask for a tracking number to keep him/her honest.

[BumpyintheBurgh]

If a guy had my money for 8 months and no frame, we would have already gone to small claims court for a judgement against him. I wouldn't stand for it. If he was close by, I'd be at his front door. There is no excuse for a business to treat a customer this way. He deserves to be "outed" so that others can avoid him. Why be shy about naming names, you've already been ripped off. Sometimes it's not "nice to be nice".

[J.Greene]

David was probably too nice. But it's clear he took the high road and for that I applaud him. If the builder had just communicated with David I assume there would be no problem. David is in a diffucult spot. He's doing what he can from a different coast. Escalataing this into a war would not have been a win for anyone.

JG


If a guy had my money for 8 months and no frame, we would have already gone to small claims court for a judgement against him. I wouldn't stand for it. If he was close by, I'd be at his front door. There is no excuse for a business to treat a customer this way. He deserves to be "outed" so that others can avoid him. Why be shy about naming names, you've already been ripped off. Sometimes it's not "nice to be nice".

[Ken Robb]

ok the treatment by the restorer is reprehensible but I don't think small claims court is practical with the parties on opposite coasts.

[shoe]

david good idea not mentioning who it was -- but when it arrives you now have to post a photo and let us know where you got the most excellent work done...dave

[Needs Help]

Call the police. It's fraud conducted across interstate lines, which is a federal offense.

If someone had publicly outed the builder earlier, then presumably you wouldn't have had these problems. By protecting him, all your doing is propagating the problems onto the next customer. I think that's reprehensible behavior.

[harlond]

Call the police. It's fraud conducted across interstate lines, which is a federal offense.Maybe, maybe not, breach of contract is not fraud. In any event, the probability that the police or the FBI would devote much effort to this sort of thing is low.


If someone had publicly outed the builder earlier, then presumably you wouldn't have had these problems. By protecting him, all your doing is propagating the problems onto the next customer. I think that's reprehensible behavior.Strong language. Maybe a little premature?

[vaxn8r]

I think asome of these guys are in the business they are in because of their work ethic.

I recently had a custom made Paraguayan classical guitar repaired by a local guy in town at the recommendation of the folks at The Guitar Center. "He does great work" they said. I spoke to him a few times early on and then he went undercover. I not only didn't hear from him, but the employees at the Guitar Center couldn't find him either. We're talking a full year went by. I thought I lost it. I had no money in it but he had my guitar!!!

Finally he called me, said it was done, it'd taken longer than he thought and he'd hed some other projects, blah blah blah. Anyway, it all turned out great.

Again, if he had a real job he would have been fired. There's a reason he works on his own repairing guitars.

No offense meant to any framebuilders around here. I DON'T mean any of you who have legitimate businesses with product and a reputation at stake.

[david]

Call the police. It's fraud conducted across interstate lines, which is a federal offense.

If someone had publicly outed the builder earlier, then presumably you wouldn't have had these problems. By protecting him, all your doing is propagating the problems onto the next customer. I think that's reprehensible behavior.

i get where you're coming from. but when i wrote this post, i still hadn't heard from the builder. i couldn't be sure that there wasn't a reasonable explanation. i felt i needed to be sure before i sullied his reputation.

since then, i received an email saying that the bike is on its way. he apologized and said he had been dealing with some personal and health issues.

okay, maybe he could have responded earlier. and maybe he's bs-ing me. i don't know. but i've made the mistake before of jumping to conclusions and assuming i understand somebody's actions and motivations before i truly did. i'm just hoping that i get the frame back and he gets things together.

[Ahneida Ride]

Is he in Rhode Island? :D I'm available.

William

You'll get every Bike in the shop if Uncle William shows up. !!!! :D

[Birddog]

I think the guy doing the repairs reads this board and being a bright guy, he decided to send the frame before he had a visit from someone intending to administer a throat punch followed by a steal the peach move. Framebuilders like to keep their peaches.

Birddog

[atmo]

I think the guy doing the repairs reads this board and being a bright guy, he decided to send the frame before he had a visit from someone intending to administer a throat punch followed by a steal the peach move. Framebuilders like to keep their peaches.

Birddog
so you're suggesting an impeachment would settle the score atmo?

[Peter P.]

I'd be curious to know if, when your frame arrives, it is finished to your satisfaction. Don't forget to post and tell us the "rest of the story" (with apologies to Paul Harvey).

P.S. I had a similar situation regarding one of my bikes. An 8 week delivery turned into 10 months, and it was fraught with problems. All this aggravation from a currently popular/WELL KNOWN framebuilder. In the end I got my bike and was satisfied with it, but certainly not the service. I wouldn't even send it back to him now if it needed repairs. In fact, after I was hit by a car I did send it elsewhere.

Some of these builders work alone because they couldn't meet the demands of being a "proper" businessman.

[Ginger]

Some of these builders work alone because they couldn't meet the demands of being a "proper" businessman.

Yeah...there are a lot of people in the world like that. Improper and such. It's so amazing that anything gets done at all these days.

[manet]

as an example










Yeah...there are a lot of people in the world like that. Improper and such.

[bcm119]

Some of these builders work alone because they couldn't meet the demands of being a "proper" businessman.
Sure, but there are others who work alone because they don't want to put up with all the b.s. of being a "proper" businessman. Many work much more efficiently for it imho.

[Sandy]

Sure, but there are others who work alone because they don't want to put up with all the b.s. of being a "proper" businessman. Many work much more efficiently for it imho.


Heck, if I could live my life over again, I would spend a lot less time working with people and a lot more time working with dogs.

Put me in a room full of dogs I don't know and I will be quite happy. Put me in a room full of people I don't know and I will not be happy.

It is all a personal choice. That is why there is Vanilla and Chocolate ice cream.


:D Strawberry Sandy :D

[Lincoln]

Heck, if I could live my life over again, I would spend a lot less time working with people and a lot more time working with dogs.

Put me in a room full of dogs I don't know and I will be quite happy. Put me in a room full of people I don't know and I will not be happy.

It is all a personal choice. That is why there is Vanilla and Chocolate ice cream.


:D Strawberry Sandy :D

Sandy,
Continuing OT...
My personal philosophy is to assume all people and cats that I meet are neutral and then I am occasionally surprised or disappointed. With dogs, I assume they are great unless they prove otherwise (which they rarely do).
Lincoln Loves Laughing Labs