A Prime Directive on Disc Brakes has been issued

[wildboar]

https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/26804367_1691276660911523_4686563752238678302_n.jp g?oh=6af63036d628bf6aa2ec6609f1115667&oe=5AE318AA

https://www.instagram.com/outsideisfred/

[mattsbeers]

I don't get it.

[Tickdoc]

I was going to get them....then I heard Dario say you don't need them.

[thwart]

I was going to get them....then I heard Dario say you don't need them.
I see the resemblance...

http://mano-nella-mano.com/assets/mnm_pegoretti_web_sm_02.jpg

[dddd]

Having subscribed to Road bike Action for the past two years, I have been continually nagged by their shameless over-endorsement of disc-braked road bikes.
And now, with Giant having produced a creditably-light disc-only model, albeit at a high price point, they completely ignore the added weight , cost and ride quality implications imposed by discs on just about every other bike out there.
But of course with the UCI minimum weight limit it "doesn't matter", ...right?

Uh, oh well, it's their magazine.

[bigbill]

I like the disc brakes on my gravel bike, it give me options on tire and wheel size plus I can run it through sticky mud and it won't gum up my brakes. For my road bike, I'm a real fatass and have never had any problems bombing descents on a rim brake bike (with alloy rims), ever. If I were to return to the PNW, I'd want a disc brake commuter.

[DRZRM]

+1, my gravel bike will have disc brakes, because I can run huge tires (40 on 700) and switch wheels to run huger tires (47 on 650) and it is the bike I'll grab (titanium) if it is wet out. As far as skinny (well skinnier) tires on a road bike, clinchers work just fine, and I'm a big guy.

[Kirk007]

Again?? Really. In 2018 this is such a non-issue, ride what you like.

For the record:

My Spectrum ti disc road bike weighs roughly 17.5 pounds with 25mm tubulars, this in a ti bike for someone who rides a stock 62 Peg Marcelo ain't bad, and it will take up to 35mm tires or 650b wheels with 38 mm tires. Stopping ability is only one draw of a road disc bike.

NB: This bike hardly makes my Hampsten and Pegoretti old fashioned rim brake bikes irrelevant.

[crankles]

I like what Byrne has to say about them.

https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/disc-brakes-will-revolutionize-bicycle%E2%88%97/

[pdmtong]

I like what Byrne has to say about them.

https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/disc-brakes-will-revolutionize-bicycle%E2%88%97/

that was a cogent read ... thanks

[beeatnik]

Fred is my Co-pilot.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4648/38746775385_a71dd79ca0_b.jpg

[d_douglas]

Dario doesn't wear safety glasses when he welds>? Isn't that bad for the eyes?

[Bob Ross]

Dario doesn't wear safety glasses when he welds>?

Didn't even notice that, I was too busy being astonished at the number of frames in his shop! Is he incredibly prolific/productive? ...or does his time-management suck, and some of those frames have been waiting for paint for months? :)


:banana:

I'm kidding, that's a beautiful photograph and a fascinating peek into his workshop.

[R3awak3n]

Doesnt Dario also smoke like 10 packs a day? I dont think he carea

[El Chaba]

I think it's a really good idea to tell Dario how to build frames.....yeah....

[oldpotatoe]

I like the disc brakes on my gravel bike, it give me options on tire and wheel size plus I can run it through sticky mud and it won't gum up my brakes. For my road bike, I'm a real fatass and have never had any problems bombing descents on a rim brake bike (with alloy rims), ever. If I were to return to the PNW, I'd want a disc brake commuter.

Here we go again..as a 'feature' that came from mountain bikes, there are some real advantages..in dirt, mud, in the wet, on tandems, MTBs...but for your sunday afternoon, nice day dry, 25 miler with yer buds...hardly BUT coffee shop points mean a LOT!!
BUT if ya want a road bike wth disc brakes..go right ahead...yer $...but it's OK if somebody thinks it's an answer to a not asked question...kinda like electronic shifting or 'put name of bike thing here'

[unterhausen]

I do like the freedom disc brakes allow with wheels. But I'm not enthusiastic about rim brakes being pushed into a niche market.

We can't see the lenses on Dario's glasses. I have enough defects in my eyes that I use glass worker lenses. I have heard that infrared will hurt your eyes. I occasionally do silver without tinted glasses, I would have trouble doing that with brass.

[Macadamia]

if you open an instagram pic in its own tab you can find the jpeg in page info
also fred is probably my favorite person on there

[Hilltopperny]

I built up a disc road bike a few weeks ago and I like it. I also live in the Northeast and feel that it enables me to ride when the weather is less than perfect. A titanium disc roadie is perfect for bad weather imo.

On nice sunny days I pull out my Respo wit rim brakes and all is still right in the world. Horses for courses and all that.

I do not race, am relatively slow by forum standards and am not a weight weenie. I do like to try the new tech and see if it is right for me. Hydro disc set ups 's ride great and yes they seem to stop a bit better in inclement weather, but like most things cycling the gains are marginal.

I like both and will continue to ride what I feel like on any given day. Discs and titanium make for a great combination for an all weather ride, but I used to have plenty of fun on an old cannondale touring bike with cantis and fat tires before disc road bikes were a thing.

[November Dave]

Dario doesn't wear safety glasses when he welds>? Isn't that bad for the eyes?

He's actually brazing and not welding there. You'd more or less go instantly blind if you welded without a welding mask. I took a welding class not long ago and was like "so where's the hard part of this?" Then I put on the mask and was like "oh I get it, you have to do this blind!" And that ain't easy.

Would surprise me if the lenses in those glasses weren't significantly dark, but far be it from me to tell him how to work.

The Speedplay guy has outstanding points. Thanks for sharing that link.

[redir]

Is that a Chick tract?

[ColonelJLloyd]

He's actually brazing and not welding there. You'd more or less go instantly blind if you welded without a welding mask.

I honestly don't know if you'd go blind. But. I vividly remember my dad telling me, when showing me stick welding as a kid, a story of guy he took to the ER after seeing him stick weld without a mask. A couple hours later this grown man was crying something awful from the pain. Apparently it's pretty intense pain that sets in sometime later.

[AngryScientist]

i've gotten a very minor welding flash before. feels like sand in your eyes you cant clear.

working in power plants, ship yards and submarines under construction over the years, sometimes you cant help but come around a corner when someone is about to strike an arc. ouch.

[ltwtsculler91]

Here we go again..as a 'feature' that came from mountain bikes, there are some real advantages..in dirt, mud, in the wet, on tandems, MTBs...but for your sunday afternoon, nice day dry, 25 miler with yer buds...hardly BUT coffee shop points mean a LOT!!
BUT if ya want a road bike wth disc brakes..go right ahead...yer $...but it's OK if somebody thinks it's an answer to a not asked question...kinda like electronic shifting or 'put name of bike thing here'

I'm 100% with OP here, in crap conditions discs are nice to have as they keep your braking consistent. If (this may be a when), I get to building up a new winter/rain/commute bike to replace my Boone, it'll almost surely be a disc for this reason as most are moving away from long reach or canti for this sort of frame. The small advantage plus more options mean it's a pretty good option for bad weather or off road, but outside of those situations I'll be on rim brakes all day and either rim or disc, my bikes will be shifted by those old fashioned steel cable things.

Personally, I give more coffee shop points for a unique metal bike build but that may be why I hand around here :banana::banana::banana:

[FlashUNC]

Is that a Chick tract?

Probably the only other person here who gets this, but this is gold.

Fwiw, my next road bike will in all likelihood be disc. After dabbling with a hydro groad bike for the last year, I get it.

[bthornt]

Is that a Chick tract?

Score with that one. Remember "This was your life?"

[Mark McM]

Here we go again..as a 'feature' that came from mountain bikes, there are some real advantages..in dirt, mud, in the wet, on tandems, MTBs...but for your sunday afternoon, nice day dry, 25 miler with yer buds...hardly BUT coffee shop points mean a LOT!!

I wonder if these bikes are meant for the same people who have become convinced that it is impossible for motorists to drive on paved roads without all the features of an SUV.

Many years ago, I had a roommate who always seemed to 'need' the latest popular vehicle. When the Volkswagen GTI became the 'must have' vehicle, he went out and bought one. When BMWs became the next 'must have', he sold the GTI and leased a BMW. Then when SUVs because de rigueur, he suddenly discovered that it was impossible to drive without one, so he went out and got a Ford Explorer. As far as I know, the only time he ever went off-road in the Explorer was the first time he drove it in the snow, and he slid off the road in a curve and ended up in a neighbor's front yard. (That's also when he discovered that AWD can help you get going, but it doesn't help you turn or stop.)

[oldpotatoe]

I wonder if these bikes are meant for the same people who have become convinced that it is impossible for motorists to drive on paved roads without all the features of an SUV.

Many years ago, I had a roommate who always seemed to 'need' the latest popular vehicle. When the Volkswagen GTI became the 'must have' vehicle, he went out and bought one. When BMWs became the next 'must have', he sold the GTI and leased a BMW. Then when SUVs because de rigueur, he suddenly discovered that it was impossible to drive without one, so he went out and got a Ford Explorer. As far as I know, the only time he ever went off-road in the Explorer was the first time he drove it in the snow, and he slid off the road in a curve and ended up in a neighbor's front yard. (That's also when he discovered that AWD can help you get going, but it doesn't help you turn or stop.)

Probably...I knew a guy who bought an Explorer when they were brand new..I asked if 4WD and he said, 'no, 4wd just means you get stuck twice as far into the woods'....:)

[ltwtsculler91]

I wonder if these bikes are meant for the same people who have become convinced that it is impossible for motorists to drive on paved roads without all the features of an SUV.

... (That's also when he discovered that AWD can help you get going, but it doesn't help you turn or stop.)

That nails it for me. People love to have more capability than they need and can be pretty easily convinced that what was a nice to have feature, is now a NEED...

In the end, I think it causes people to put themselves into situations that are more than they can handle. Someone thinks because they have AWD they can do whatever they want in the snow and blow by down the highway at 60+, now on a bike with discs some are going to think it's totally OK to bomb down a descent at 45+ mph in the rain because the brakes will still grab which they will until the tires start washing out in the wet...

And this is coming from a guy who still misses his old Land Rover Discovery, even though my fwd Volvo is more than capable enough for the snow/crap we get here in NJ.

[Ti Designs]

Didn't even notice that, I was too busy being astonished at the number of frames in his shop! Is he incredibly prolific/productive? ...or does his time-management suck, and some of those frames have been waiting for paint for months? :)

I just noticed the giant portrait of Dario behind Dario...

[Kirk007]

I wonder if these bikes are meant for the same people who have become convinced that it is impossible for motorists to drive on paved roads without all the features of an SUV.)

I get what you are saying here. It was an epidemic when I was in Boulder in the early 80s. Boulder-Denver turnpike would be littered with abandoned SUVs every snowstorm while In was getting around fine in a Mazda RX-7.

What I don't get here is the condescending judgemental smugness towards other's choices. People like and want what they want. They don't need to justify their choices to us. And necessity is in the eyes of the user here, not third parties. If it isn't hurting you why care?

[redir]

Probably the only other person here who gets this, but this is gold.

Fwiw, my next road bike will in all likelihood be disc. After dabbling with a hydro groad bike for the last year, I get it.


Score with that one. Remember "This was your life?"

A classic one.

[ergott]

I wonder if these bikes are meant for the same people who have become convinced that it is impossible for motorists to drive on paved roads without all the features of an SUV.



Think of it another way. I wonder if grand tour bikes are meant to be ridden the same way 80% of the ones that get purchased get used. Yet this is what was heavily marketed for the last few decades. Lighter, faster, more aero...

The expansion of the capabilities I see in a lot of new bikes are actually beneficial to most road bikers. Bigger tire volume is still relatively fast yet more comfortable. Road grip is better too. For the longest time we have been sold bikes that are essentially race day bikes and they are used for charity events and 30 mile group rides.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[R3awak3n]

man, another one of these.


I wonder if people had this conversation when everyone was ridding on 23mm tires and then 25 or 28mm tires came along... and then everyone was like, those are slow and now everyone is on 25 or 28.


A lot of people will be on discs in 5 years. And that is fine. There will be a bunch of people on rim brakes, like there are still people on 23mm tires. That is not to say discs are better but they brake better. No one needs discs, no one needs carbon seatposts or clipless pedals.

Dario welds without glasses... oh thats a different thread.

[El Chaba]

Marketing bull*****. In one of my mileage logs, I have a page where I have kept track of all of the time savings that various "improvements" over the years have promised. 1983 was the first time that I was able to crack the 60 minute mark for a 40KM time trial; it occurred in our district championships. (It may have been 25 miles then, but I can't remember exactly). Using that as a baseline, if I took advantage-that is purchased- all of the equipment marketed with a "tested" time advantage, I should now be able to finish the 40 km time trial 14 minutes before my start time! I do appreciate all of these companies trying to make me faster even if I am skeptical. Now in their never ending quest to sell me crap that I don't need, the marketing push of the industry is to sell me on a product that doesn't make me faster, but is supposed to make me go slower at a faster rate...They will just have to pardon me if I don't jump at the opportunity as age alone is decreasing my speed at a sufficient rate.

[Mark McM]

What I don't get here is the condescending judgemental smugness towards other's choices. People like and want what they want. They don't need to justify their choices to us. And necessity is in the eyes of the user here, not third parties. If it isn't hurting you why care?

Because it potentially is hurting others.

The availability of low cost high quality products depends on the demand for those products. If demand for a product drops, availability also drops, and the cost of the remaining sources of the product rises. If the demand for disc brake bikes causes the demand for rim brake bikes to drop dramatically, the selection of rim brake bikes will be dramatically curtailed. The market for rim brake bikes could even move exclusively to the custom manufacturers.

This is not just theoretical, there are numerous examples in other industries. for example, back in the year 2001, I was looking for a hatchback or small station wagon. hatchbacks and small station wagons of course were not obsolete, but they had fallen out of fashion when the SUV had come to dominate the new car market. At that time, the pickings were few for that style of car, and I had only a small selection of vehicles to chose from.

Fortunately, automobile fashion had swung back by the time I was looking for a new vehicle in 2009 (largely by changes in the economy), and there were plenty of hatchbacks and small wagons to choose from at that time.

Due to the whims of cycling fashion, it is altogether possible that there are cyclists in the future whose needs are best met by rim brake bikes, and that these bikes are just not widely available. So yes, the desire for disc brakes can affect others.

[ptourkin]

Having subscribed to Road bike Action for the past two years, I have been continually nagged by their shameless over-endorsement of disc-braked road bikes.
And now, with Giant having produced a creditably-light disc-only model, albeit at a high price point, they completely ignore the added weight , cost and ride quality implications imposed by discs on just about every other bike out there.
But of course with the UCI minimum weight limit it "doesn't matter", ...right?

Uh, oh well, it's their magazine.

Actually, I've seen them mention the weight penalty. Most of the print media now has an advertorial component, I think it's pretty easy to suss out, though.

The resistance here is amusing. If you don't want them, don't buy them. For many applications, they are the superior choice. If you don't agree, that's fine but it gets tedious. Change happens. Laugh about 1X and tubeless too - people who use all three will never go back.

[Kirk007]

Due to the whims of cycling fashion, it is altogether possible that there are cyclists in the future whose needs are best met by rim brake bikes, and that these bikes are just not widely available. So yes, the desire for disc brakes can affect others.

Well, desire perhaps but need? Both rim and disc brakes perform the same essential function pretty well on most days and on most roads for most folks on a road bike.

Anyway, while theoretically possible it's hard to see marketing per se making rim brakes obsolete. But technology evolves, I don't think many folks using rim brakes would choose rim brakes from the 60's or 70s over the current crop, which in my opinion simply work better. If a new technology comes along that works better (could be evolving disc brakes or evolving hydraulic rim brakes or??), then do we blame the marketers for declining demand of the old technology or do we put it on the fact that the new technology is a superior solution?

And I don't think you can say that disc brakes are a solution to a nonexistent problem. There are instances when anyone other than a 100% fair weather cyclist is probably better off with disc brakes. Those have been identified and even conceded here ad nausem.

[ptourkin]

Probably...I knew a guy who bought an Explorer when they were brand new..I asked if 4WD and he said, 'no, 4wd just means you get stuck twice as far into the woods'....:)

Visit Sausalito, go to Above Category, ride an Open on fireroads, single track and on the road. 1X, tubeless, hydro disc. Then do it on whatever you think is "just as good" and report back. Or go borrow a Baxter or Routt from Moots. Either way, experience it and report back.

[Mark McM]

Well, desire perhaps but need? Both rim and disc brakes perform the same essential function pretty well on most days and on most roads for most folks on a road bike.

Yes, they serve the same basic function, but are they the same? No. But the real questions are, is there room in the market for both? Will one crowd out the other.

Anyway, while theoretically possible it's hard to see marketing per se making rim brakes obsolete. But technology evolves, I don't think many folks using rim brakes would choose rim brakes from the 60's or 70s over the current crop, which in my opinion simply work better. If a new technology comes along that works better (could be evolving disc brakes or evolving hydraulic rim brakes or??), then do we blame the marketers for declining demand of the old technology or do we put it on the fact that the new technology is a superior solution?

And there we have it. At the same time as you are wondering why people are putting the hate on disc brakes, you are putting the hate on rim brakes, and claiming that your preferred product "is a superior solution". Of course, the manufacturers don't offer product based on whether or not it is superior - they produce it based on its demand. They're happy to produce an inferior product, if that's what people want (or can be convinced) to buy.

Back in the '80s and '90s, hard anodized rims were popular. Popular enough that manufacturers were able to charge more for hard anodized rims, and people were happy to pay. However, hard anodized rims by and large are technically inferior - the thick, brittle anodization layer promoted the initiation and growth of cracks, and these rims usually had shorter fatigue lives.

I talked with an engineer at Sun Rims about this, and he readily admitted that hard anodized rims were more likely to crack. I asked why Sun Rims produced hard anodized rims, and he replied that it was because that is what consumers wanted - they had been convinced (largely through marketing) that hard anodized rims were better, and few would buy non-hard anodized rims. Here's a case where a product with clear technical flaws was crowding out another product, simply from consumer demand.


Another case of this is what is going on with music releases on disc:

There was time when the LP vinyl album was the king of record sales. Then digital CDs were released, and over time CDs replaced LPs. At one point, all the major labels stopped producing LPs altogether. "What's the big deal?" one might ask, "CDs are superior to LPs". That might be so in many ways, but it did mean that long time LP users had to upgrade their audio systems if they wanted access to the latest music.

But in recent years there has been a swing in the other direction - LPs have returned, and there are even all-vinyl LP record labels. In fact, there is a lot of music today that is released only on vinyl. So, here we have another industry where consumer demand for one technology (regardless of validity) is affecting those who prefer a different technology.

[Kirk007]

And there we have it. At the same time as you are wondering why people are putting the hate on disc brakes, you are putting the hate on rim brakes, and claiming that your preferred product "is a superior solution". .

Umm, do I need to post photos of the Hampsten Squadra with rim brakes that I had built for and took possession of last month? Or the Peg Marcelo that's been back and forth over Cascade passes for a decade?

Careful about assumptions about people. I'm a best tool for the job type of guy.

As to anodized rims etc - and the market worked itself out. And LPs are making a comeback with a certain audience. People may get all excited by the latest and greatest but I'm not sure that we're the glazed eyes manipulated idiots you make us out to be that need to be saved from ourselves. Although our politics do support this worldview. Anyway, things seem to get sorted out over time.

[FlashUNC]

There's a part of me that wishes the forum was a thing when indexed shifting and lever-mounted shifters became a thing. Or clipless pedals.

Would make this disc brake thing look like child's play I'm sure.

[ergott]

But the real questions are, is there room in the market for both?

Yes.

Cars and SUVs on the same road. Trucks too.

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[beeatnik]

There's a part of me that wishes the forum was a thing when indexed shifting and lever-mounted shifters became a thing. Or clipless pedals.

Would make this disc brake thing look like child's play I'm sure.

Disc v Rim is more like 27.5 v 29.

[Mark McM]

Disc v Rim is more like 27.5 v 29.

Or maybe it will be like 26" vs. 29". For the first 30 years MTBs existed, 26" wheels were great. Then they weren't. How many 26" wheel MTBs are being made these days?

[Bob Ross]

For the longest time we have been sold bikes that are essentially race day bikes and they are used for charity events and 30 mile group rides.

What if that 30 mile group ride takes place during one's lunch hour, are we then allowed to buy light aero race day bikes?
:banana:

[Bob Ross]

Laugh about 1X and tubeless too - people who use all three will never go back.

I actually know two folks who tried tubeless and went back to traditional clinchers. One hated how hard it was to get tires on/off a tubeless-ready rim; the other hated the mess of dealing with sealant.

I completely get both of their positions. Then again, according to this thread I am a Luddite, because I have no bikes with disc brakes, all my tires are traditional clinchers with butyl tubes, and three out of my four bikes have 23c tires.

[Mark McM]

I'm no luddite either. When I started, the norm was 27" wheels (for clinchers) with 36 spokes, downtube friction shifters, 5 speed freewheels, toe clips and straps, "standard" diameter steel frames, single pivot sidepull calipers (or centerpulls), 1" threaded steerers, etc. As new technologies became available, I would adopt them if there advantages outweighed their disadvantages. I was happy to quickly adopt indexed shifting, dual control shift/brake levers, clipless pedals, tapered threadless steerers, wheels with 20 or fewer spokes, etc. I even tried a few technologies and then gave them up when they were more trouble than they were worth (such as suspension road forks, spline drive spoke nipples, etc.).

I've got disc brakes on my MTB (although maybe not for the reason you think) and have used them quite a bit, so I am familiar with them. But for the most cases, I don't see the advantage of them on road bikes. Sure there are a few times they'd be nice, but even in those cases, rim brakes still get by (hey, rim brakes got us by on our MTBs for many years). For me, and probably for most of the people I see riding, it appears to me that disc brakes on road bikes fit in the category of "more disadvantages than advantages".

Of course, I think the same thing about SUVs that are only driven on the road, but that hasn't stopped them from becoming one of the most popular road vehicles.

[HenryA]

Y'all keep talking like this and you're gonna break the bicycle industry. If all the old stuff ain't no good no more, how will they sell you the new stuff?

[choke]

What I don't get here is the condescending judgemental smugness towards other's choices. People like and want what they want. They don't need to justify their choices to us. And necessity is in the eyes of the user here, not third parties. If it isn't hurting you why care?That smugness often comes from both sides of an issue...and I see that happening here at times.

I am firmly in the camp that most new bicycle 'technology' is marketing driven. I can't see myself ever owning a drop bar (to cover road, gravel, etc. under one roof) bike with discs, a 1x drivetrain or tubeless tires. As you mentioned in another post, I do prefer single pivot calipers to dual pivots because I feel that they have better modulation and that's more important to me than absolute power. On the other hand, I'm not above trying things out; I purchased a Rock Shox when they first came out and I did have a MTB with discs (since sold).

But I do agree with the gist of what you're saying.....let someone decide what they want. Live and let live. I too am tired of the anti-disc threads, though they can be entertaining to watch others post rhetoric in defense of their positions pro and con.

[chiasticon]

Didn't even notice that, I was too busy being astonished at the number of frames in his shop! Is he incredibly prolific/productive? ...or does his time-management suck, and some of those frames have been waiting for paint for months? :)does he build all his own frames completely? meaning, does he do every single step? or is there someone helping him by cutting tubes, mitering, etc...? I feel like I've seen pics of his workshop and there's a number of people in it.

anyway, that would explain why there's so many frames in the pic at least; if he has help, he can make a frame much quicker.

[Burnette]

It seems like some here have some misconceptions about some bicycles. I'll give you some info to help out. See, disc brake bikes have come a ways now and are hardly the SUVs of the bicycle world. You can be just as fast on one as a rim brake bike. That should be common knowledge, yet it seems it's not to some.

They are just as competent as rim brake bikes on the road and are used the same. I know, shocker. If you get dropped on these disc bikes below, it's not the disc brake bike's fault. It's the usual culprit, you ride with people who are faster than you. Weight in pounds and frame in grams, cause that's how some sites broke it down.

Cervelo R5 Disc 15.7 lbs, frame weighs 831 grams
http://cycleworldmiami.com/merchant/1532/images/zoom/1_r5_disc_sram_blackfluoro.jpg

Focus Izalco Max Disc I think the 2018 is red, this older black is nice. 15lbs, frame weighs 800 grams
https://www.swiftcycles.co.uk/images/2016_focus_izalco_max_disc_sram_red.jpg?maxheight= 1200

BMC Team machine Disc 15.1 lbs, frame 815 grams
https://gzmyu4ma9b-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/BMC-Teammachine-SLR01-Disc_lightweight-carbon-disc-brake-race-road-bike_SLR01-Disc-Team-red.jpg

Colnago V2- R Disc 14.5 lbs., frame 835 grams
http://www.cyclesports.jp/sites/default/files/06_disc_0.jpg

Canyon Ultimate CF LX 8.0 Disc 17.1 lbs, frame 820 grams.
http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/08/Canyon-Ultimate-CF-SLX-Disc-01.jpg

[ptourkin]

I actually know two folks who tried tubeless and went back to traditional clinchers. One hated how hard it was to get tires on/off a tubeless-ready rim; the other hated the mess of dealing with sealant.



On dirt? I know people who have gone back and forth on the road, but on dirt or mixed surfaces I haven't seen any argument for tubes in quite a while. Mounting and dealing with sealant both get a lot better with experience, too.

[ergott]

In my opinion, tubeless works when tire pressures are. Below about 70psi, better when even less. My 650bX42 setup is about 35psi. Sealant works much better and tires are less likely to puncture.

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[Ti Designs]

The availability of low cost high quality products depends on the demand for those products. If demand for a product drops, availability also drops, and the cost of the remaining sources of the product rises.

Wait, when did bike specs become consumer driven??? The bike industry makes changes, if those changes aren't flatly rejected the whole industry moves that way - not that there are any hard standards in the bike industry... When STI shifters came out everybody said they would never catch on. Now you won't find a new bike with down tube shifters. Do you really need an oversized headset? The industry has made that decision for you. What size are the wheels on a mountain bike? They were 26" for years, then they weren't...

Disc brakes are going to find their way onto more and more bikes, wheels for rim brakes will become harder to find. How 'bout electronic shifting? Started out at Dura-Ace level, worked it's way down to Ultegra. Can 105 be that far away? At what point does a base model Trek come wired for Di2?

I don't use any of that stuff, but I've been in the bike industry for 30 years. What was a common item on the shelf one year becomes a retro part in short order.

[crankles]

Or maybe it will be like 26" vs. 29". For the first 30 years MTBs existed, 26" wheels were great. Then they weren't. How many 26" wheel MTBs are being made these days?

My understanding is that 26" was chosen to avoid tariffs, not because it was the ideal wheel size.

[Kirk007]

I think I'll take my disc road bike, put 650B wheels with 38mm tubeless tires on it and ride it up to the Madonna del Ghissalo. If I don't get smitten with a bolt of lightening as a heretic then I will conclude that its the riding not the bike that matters ; )

[cadence90]

I think I'll take my disc road bike, put 650B wheels with 38mm tubeless tires on it and ride it up to the Madonna del Ghissalo. If I don't get smitten with a bolt of lightening as a heretic then I will conclude that its the riding not the bike that matters ; )
Nah, you won't even be glanced at, let alone smitten, by lightning for riding that set-up.




However, you will be completely and thoroughly crisped for misspelling "Ghisallo". :no: Sorry, bye.

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r654/traghetter/madonna%20del%20ghisallo_zpsjt7d4tu8.jpg (http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/traghetter/media/madonna%20del%20ghisallo_zpsjt7d4tu8.jpg.html)
.
.

[froze]

Guys, I'm not sold on disk brakes for road bikes due to this unscientific test: I tested my rim brake bike against a friend’s disk brake bike. Here's the specs on that test: the combine weight of me and my bike was 87 1/2 pounds for me and 89 pounds for him; I was using Hutchinson Intensive 23c tires and he had Conti 4000s 25c; we adjusted our air according to the online Michelin inflation calculator and used the same pressure gauge; and do to a You Tube test done by 2 pro riders where the one rider altered the outcome by sliding back toward the rear of his bike which made his disk bike stop faster we made the rule that we had to stay in the center of the seat and not move; we did 3 sets of 3 tests one after the other without resting between stops to test brake fade, first set was at 15 mph, the second at 22 mph, and the third at 30 mph. What we found out was that after those stops he and I was within a foot of each other during the first 2 sets, sometimes I stopped shorter and sometimes he did which we attributed that to probably reaction time differences. What was interesting was at 30 mph I stopped faster every single time, which we think was due to the disk brakes fading because the disks was so hot I burned my finger touching it, but the rims were not that hot, but still there wasn't more than a 2 foot difference, which probably would had started to increase further if we kept doing stops like that.

The other thing you must consider with disk brakes is that it cost more to maintain them, but with rim brakes you wear out the rim faster, the end cost result is the same except with the disk brakes you spent a lot more time maintaining them. Some say rims on a bike get dirty because they're closer to the road, this is pure nonsense in an effort to push disk brakes, I've ridden rim brakes for over 40 years and never had an issue with the rims getting dirty due to being to close to the ground. Of course the final argument is disk brakes work better in the rain, true but only to a point, a disk brake still won't stop until the water is wiped from the rotor surface but it wipes it faster because the rotor is not as large in diameter as a rim. And here's something the pro disk people don't want you know, rim brakes are disk brakes!!! Think about that, you have a pad that contacts a metal surface, both do that, the rim brake has better fade resistance because it's larger surface area dissipates heat faster which is why my test proved that at the higher speeds after 6 previous ones so during the third testing I was stopping shorter.

Of course disk brakes are absolutely necessary on full CF wheels.

[Burnette]

Guys, I'm not sold on disk brakes for road bikes due to this unscientific test: I tested my rim brake bike against a friend’s disk brake bike. Here's the specs on that test: the combine weight of me and my bike was 87 1/2 pounds for me and 89 pounds for him; I was using Hutchinson Intensive 23c tires and he had Conti 4000s 25c; we adjusted our air according to the online Michelin inflation calculator and used the same pressure gauge; and do to a You Tube test done by 2 pro riders where the one rider altered the outcome by sliding back toward the rear of his bike which made his disk bike stop faster we made the rule that we had to stay in the center of the seat and not move; we did 3 sets of 3 tests one after the other without resting between stops to test brake fade, first set was at 15 mph, the second at 22 mph, and the third at 30 mph. What we found out was that after those stops he and I was within a foot of each other during the first 2 sets, sometimes I stopped shorter and sometimes he did which we attributed that to probably reaction time differences. What was interesting was at 30 mph I stopped faster every single time, which we think was due to the disk brakes fading because the disks was so hot I burned my finger touching it, but the rims were not that hot, but still there wasn't more than a 2 foot difference, which probably would had started to increase further if we kept doing stops like that.

The other thing you must consider with disk brakes is that it cost more to maintain them, but with rim brakes you wear out the rim faster, the end cost result is the same except with the disk brakes you spent a lot more time maintaining them. Some say rims on a bike get dirty because they're closer to the road, this is pure nonsense in an effort to push disk brakes, I've ridden rim brakes for over 40 years and never had an issue with the rims getting dirty due to being to close to the ground. Of course the final argument is disk brakes work better in the rain, true but only to a point, a disk brake still won't stop until the water is wiped from the rotor surface but it wipes it faster because the rotor is not as large in diameter as a rim. And here's something the pro disk people don't want you know, rim brakes are disk brakes!!! Think about that, you have a pad that contacts a metal surface, both do that, the rim brake has better fade resistance because it's larger surface area dissipates heat faster which is why my test proved that at the higher speeds after 6 previous ones so during the third testing I was stopping shorter.

Of course disk brakes are absolutely necessary on full CF wheels.

Well, there's variables aplenty here, yes? And really, between the two of you, couldn't the one with better bike control and bigger balls play a part in all of this too?

My experince consists of riding disc on the road since 2006.

Disc brakes haven't costs me more or needed excessive maintenance, so that's gone too.

I have a 12%, 15% grades here, never had disc brake fade either.

You've ridden rim brakes for forty years and like them. I get it. But this exercise is more about an attempt at validating preconceived notions than it was about providing any real data.

You're a curious soul and I applaud that. I say also keep and open mind too. Life is too short to not explore new things and to ride in another persons cycling shoes. And, if you lived in hilly terrain like me and rode one of the light weight go fast disc bikes in my post above, you may very well then see some benefit to them as others already have. And you may like them too. That white Colnago is looking pretty sexy up there, ain't it?

[firemanj92]

My understanding is that 26" was chosen to avoid tariffs, not because it was the ideal wheel size.

@Crackles FWIW, 26" wheels were chosen because they were readily available (from cruisers) and were more suitable than skinny road rims. Joe Breezer, Gary Fisher were riding the hills of Marin (Mt. Tam) in their blue jeans on Schwinns with coaster brakes. Anyway, just a little local (to you and I) history. 29 and 27.5" wheels came about because science was applied in regards to wheel application.

-J

[sfscott]

Don’t like disc brakes? Don’t buy them.

And I’ll stay off your lawn, too.

For me, my next bike will have discs. I like the idea of not having my carbon rims get hot to the point of making me worry about exploding tubes or melting glue on long steep descents since I’m old and afraid.

p.s. mass produced steel bikes aren’t going to be a thing anymore, either. And that turntable and vinyl section, niche high end, too.

[R3awak3n]

Don’t like disc brakes? Don’t buy them.

And I’ll stay off your lawn, too.

For me, my next bike will have discs. I like the idea of not having my carbon rims get hot to the point of making me worry about exploding tubes or melting glue on long steep descents since I’m old and afraid.

p.s. mass produced steel bikes aren’t going to be a thing anymore, either. And that turntable and vinyl section, niche high end, too.

Mass produced steel bikes havent been a thing but what does that have to do with discs?

[sfscott]

Just pointing out to the retro grouches that things change and whining that new gear is unnecessary and a threat to a favorite piece of kit.

[CiclistiCliff]

Every retrogrouch which has purchased a hydro disc bike has come back and said they work smoother, more consistent, lever effort is much less (less hand fatigue) and they don't need to worry about their carbon wheels doing weird things coming down 3800' descents.

The reality is that this latest generation of hydro disc road stuff is better than the previous and things are getting better.

[choke]

Every retrogrouch which has purchased a hydro disc bike has come back and said they work smoother, more consistent, lever effort is much less (less hand fatigue) and they don't need to worry about their carbon wheels doing weird things coming down 3800' descents.No self-respecting retrogrouch would be riding carbon wheels...... :D

[froze]

Well, there's variables aplenty here, yes? And really, between the two of you, couldn't the one with better bike control and bigger balls play a part in all of this too?

My experince consists of riding disc on the road since 2006.

Disc brakes haven't costs me more or needed excessive maintenance, so that's gone too.

I have a 12%, 15% grades here, never had disc brake fade either.

You've ridden rim brakes for forty years and like them. I get it. But this exercise is more about an attempt at validating preconceived notions than it was about providing any real data.

You're a curious soul and I applaud that. I say also keep and open mind too. Life is too short to not explore new things and to ride in another persons cycling shoes. And, if you lived in hilly terrain like me and rode one of the light weight go fast disc bikes in my post above, you may very well then see some benefit to them as others already have. And you may like them too. That white Colnago is looking pretty sexy up there, ain't it?

A validation would require that somehow we altered the test, in fact the reason I wanted to do the test was because of You Tube video I saw that was done by two pro riders in England that showed that disk brakes were superior, but in those tests the rider that used the disk brakes was sliding his arse a bit rearward over the rear tire more which as you know helps with braking, the other rider did not do that, so in our test the instructions were that we could not shift our body weight and we had to stay on center of the saddle. When we did this test we both had no idea what the result would be thus there was no preconceived ideas one way or the other, of course my friend with the disk brakes knew for sure he would win regardless of what we both saw watching the You Tube video; quite frankly I didn't know who would win, I just knew that I use to race on them as did millions of other racers including pro racers and there isn't mass graveyards at the side of mountains due to braking issues.

Also going down mountains, which is what I use to do a lot of, isn't the same as repeated full on panic stopping in regards to heat buildup, with mountain descending you can brake and release and repeat to give time for the rim or the disk to cool a bit. Even in modern cars where severe brake testing was done they actually experience a degree of brake fade which leads to longer braking distances, so it's actually quite normal for that to happen with disks under severe conditions. Of course disk brakes won't fade away completely like the old drum brakes in cars would do, but they will lose about 30 to maybe 40% of their effectiveness on the extreme end of constant severe braking, but as disk brakes wear that fade will increase.

Don't believe me about the fade issue do you? of course you don't that's why you had to respond the way you did, so read this instead of reading my crap: https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/top-10-brake-system-issues-every-car-owner-needs-to-know Now I can hear you screaming at me that what the hell does car brake fade have to do with bicycles, will it's the same science involved! Still screaming? then stop screaming and read this: http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/is-heat-build-up-in-disc-brakes-something-to-worry-about-310878

By the way I did mention in my previous post that if a person is using a 100% CF rim, that means no AL brake track, it is absolutely necessary to use disk brakes.

[Burnette]

A validation would require that somehow we altered the test, in fact the reason I wanted to do the test was because of You Tube video I saw that was done by two pro riders in England that showed that disk brakes were superior, but in those tests the rider that used the disk brakes was sliding his arse a bit rearward over the rear tire more which as you know helps with braking, the other rider did not do that, so in our test the instructions were that we could not shift our body weight and we had to stay on center of the saddle. When we did this test we both had no idea what the result would be thus there was no preconceived ideas one way or the other, of course my friend with the disk brakes knew for sure he would win regardless of what we both saw watching the You Tube video; quite frankly I didn't know who would win, I just knew that I use to race on them as did millions of other racers including pro racers and there isn't mass graveyards at the side of mountains due to braking issues.

Also going down mountains, which is what I use to do a lot of, isn't the same as repeated full on panic stopping in regards to heat buildup, with mountain descending you can brake and release and repeat to give time for the rim or the disk to cool a bit. Even in modern cars where severe brake testing was done they actually experience a degree of brake fade which leads to longer braking distances, so it's actually quite normal for that to happen with disks under severe conditions. Of course disk brakes won't fade away completely like the old drum brakes in cars would do, but they will lose about 30 to maybe 40% of their effectiveness on the extreme end of constant severe braking, but as disk brakes wear that fade will increase.

Don't believe me about the fade issue do you? of course you don't that's why you had to respond the way you did, so read this instead of reading my crap: https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/top-10-brake-system-issues-every-car-owner-needs-to-know Now I can hear you screaming at me that what the hell does car brake fade have to do with bicycles, will it's the same science involved! Still screaming? then stop screaming and read this: http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/is-heat-build-up-in-disc-brakes-something-to-worry-about-310878

By the way I did mention in my previous post that if a person is using a 100% CF rim, that means no AL brake track, it is absolutely necessary to use disk brakes.

Oh, no screaming my friend, I enjoy talking bikes and I'm just sharing what really happens when you ride a disc brake bike and let me tell you, cars are my jam and their fade issue with some cars is real but that has absolutely no bearing on how disc brakes on bicycles behave. Watch any car race and look at the red rotors within the wheel and realize the massive energy they are stopping repeatedly. With a bicycle even in extreme circumstances will never generate those numbers. If you drag a bicycle brake, rim or disc, for miles then you're doing it wrong anyway. And that's what it would take to generate enough sustained heat to cause issues.

Remember the latest row with a carbon fiber wheel maker recently were a wheel maker proposed their wheel was better in a test where they hold the brakes for very long periods? The responses from the other wheel makers speaks to what I'm telling you, that those conditions do not exist and the test produced a falsehood by the wheel maker then tried to use to prove his bias towards his product.

Making a test riddled with variances with no controls and stating facts about cars and somehow trying to use that as data towards a person on a bicycle and saying it's the same, well, it's not.

You are right about one thing and I agree that if a rim is carbon fiber and the terrain is mountainous, disc has an advantage there. But even with aluminum rims, disc move the heat away from the tire/wheel seal, so there is a greater safety element with disc and aluminum too.

Again, I urge you to try a modern light weight go fast bike with disc brakes for a month or two in hilly terrain. I know you not but from your posts I see that your are inquisitive, energetic and like me, a bit obsessive. Use some of that energy to go back out and ride so e f these bikes. froze, I'm telling you, they have merit and to some of us, a well defined benefit in safety and operation. Ride some of these bikes and report back. And hey, you're always cool with me, we can always talk bikes, because that's all they are.

[crankles]

@Crackles FWIW, 26" wheels were chosen because they were readily available (from cruisers) and were more suitable than skinny road rims. Joe Breezer, Gary Fisher were riding the hills of Marin (Mt. Tam) in their blue jeans on Schwinns with coaster brakes. Anyway, just a little local (to you and I) history. 29 and 27.5" wheels came about because science was applied in regards to wheel application.

-J

I was sure I read something that had to do with import tax or something that to that effect...then I found this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8syt59gK65o
sounds like it's a bit of both. Cost and availablity driven. I'll see if I cna locate the article...I think Breezer wrote it.

[Bob Ross]

the combine weight of me and my bike was 87 1/2 pounds ...[snip]...I've ridden rim brakes for over 40 years


When I saw the combined weight of you and your bike i was going to ask "Are you 10 years old?"

Now I'm just confused.

[Burnette]

When I saw the combined weight of you and your bike i was going to ask "Are you 10 years old?"

Now I'm just confused.

I saw that and put it in bold in his quote. When he didn't respond to it I surmised that he either meant that in kilograms (87.5 kg = 192.2 lbs) or he was just making us all feel bad for eating so much cake and pie lately.

[froze]

Oh, no screaming my friend, I enjoy talking bikes and I'm just sharing what really happens when you ride a disc brake bike and let me tell you, cars are my jam and their fade issue with some cars is real but that has absolutely no bearing on how disc brakes on bicycles behave. Watch any car race and look at the red rotors within the wheel and realize the massive energy they are stopping repeatedly. With a bicycle even in extreme circumstances will never generate those numbers. If you drag a bicycle brake, rim or disc, for miles then you're doing it wrong anyway. And that's what it would take to generate enough sustained heat to cause issues.

Remember the latest row with a carbon fiber wheel maker recently were a wheel maker proposed their wheel was better in a test where they hold the brakes for very long periods? The responses from the other wheel makers speaks to what I'm telling you, that those conditions do not exist and the test produced a falsehood by the wheel maker then tried to use to prove his bias towards his product.

Making a test riddled with variances with no controls and stating facts about cars and somehow trying to use that as data towards a person on a bicycle and saying it's the same, well, it's not.

You are right about one thing and I agree that if a rim is carbon fiber and the terrain is mountainous, disc has an advantage there. But even with aluminum rims, disc move the heat away from the tire/wheel seal, so there is a greater safety element with disc and aluminum too.

Again, I urge you to try a modern light weight go fast bike with disc brakes for a month or two in hilly terrain. I know you not but from your posts I see that your are inquisitive, energetic and like me, a bit obsessive. Use some of that energy to go back out and ride so e f these bikes. froze, I'm telling you, they have merit and to some of us, a well defined benefit in safety and operation. Ride some of these bikes and report back. And hey, you're always cool with me, we can always talk bikes, because that's all they are.

I think all cyclists are bit obsessive, some more than others.

I have ridden my friends disk brake bike, and the lack of modulation turned me off...but that's my opinion, but I do feel, like my friend experienced and is why he swore his bike would stop better than mine, is that the fast action of the brake lever leads one to believe it's stopping better, but it's the fast action playing tricks on the rider, as our test proved...at least to each other.

While bicycle rotors may not glow when hot they can warp when they get to hot; read: https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/guides/the-beginners-guide-to-disc-brakes/slide/3 Scan down to Disk Brake Rotor Maintenance.

Did you read the cycle news article? That article proves what I've been saying, and they're not doing end on end 30 mph stops or screaming down a mountain at 65mph and slamming the brakes to 0.

I saw that series of rim tests too, but it does beg a question, is it better to have an over engineered product then one that isn't even though it may not be necessary? I lean more towards something being over engineered because of the added margin of safety. It's why on my touring bike I use 40 spoke rims even though 36 would be plenty, it's why when I use to race I ran 36 spoke rims even though 28 would have been plenty, it's why I chose the Enve 2.0 fork rated for 350 pound load even though the 1.0 rated for 240 pounds would have been plenty at my weight of 170. So I'm not sure if those rim tests were are falsehoods, it just simply says they have over engineered their rims. In addition there have been rims that failed in the manner in which his test shows, but those real life failures happened at much less heat then his tests generated...BS you say, well then read these: http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/are-carbon-fiber-clinchers-safe-34521/
This next one especially read the last paragraph entitled BOTTOM LINE: https://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/tech-report-the-real-story-behind-carbon-clinchers Keep in mind that delamination is a problem they haven't fully solved which is why they are moving away from CF rim brakes in favor of disk brakes. This next site has more scientific stuff, and one paragraph discusses the same thing I said I did with my fork; see: http://www.velonews.com/2016/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq-bottom-brackets-carbon-fiber-fatigue_425464

[dem]

The posts in this thread are some what surreal - but I'll just say I'm the most brake abusive person I've ever heard or read about, and I've never experienced brake fade. So I'd call that pure FUD - at least with modern Shimano hydraulic.

For me the biggest downside is consumable costs, but hydraulic disc is magic, and worth it to me when combined with wide, big carbon clinchers.

[oldpotatoe]

but, but, but...TdUnder, teams with lots of 2018 'kit' and rigs but...

???http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/world-tour-opener-2018-tdu-tech-gallery-51527/

For right above...What drives me nutz is the market drivel, like 'these cranks are much stiffer!!', implying other ones are way flexy, which they aren't. The implication that ya gotta have a disc brake bike or you are endangering your very life...what are ya thinkin?? Or some manufacturers who chide bike shop owners that they are hurting the 'industry' by not supporting the latest and greatest..happened to me(by sram, what a surprise). As if the industry needed help in gooning itself up.

Yes, disc brakes are more powerful, 'may' have better 'modulation', give alternatives for wheel sizes and wheel/tire widths. Work better in wet, sloppy, muddy conditions BUT

-more expensive..group brake level to brake level
-more difficult/more involved to set up
-heavier
-less 'aero'(altho, like WHOGAS, right?)

yes, yes, they don't cost a fortune
yes, yes, they are much easier to set up than before but...
yes, yes, for $zillion, you can have a disc brake bike less than the UCI minimum weight
yes, yes..who cares about aero-ness, shave your mustache..

So it's a tradeoff, is not 'magic', IMHO. But if ya gotta have 'em, go buy 'em but it won't make the roses smell better or the sun seem brighter in the morning..it's a brake, it slows ya down.

[R3awak3n]

but, but, but...TdUnder, teams with lots of 2018 'kit' and rigs but...

???http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/world-tour-opener-2018-tdu-tech-gallery-51527/

For right above...What drives me nutz is the market drivel, like 'these cranks are much stiffer!!', implying other ones are way flexy, which they aren't. The implication that ya gotta have a disc brake bike or you are endangering your very life...what are ya thinkin?? Or some manufacturers who chide bike shop owners that they are hurting the 'industry' by not supporting the latest and greatest..happened to me(by sram, what a surprise). As if the industry needed help in gooning itself up.

Yes, disc brakes are more powerful, 'may' have better 'modulation', give alternatives for wheel sizes and wheel/tire widths. Work better in wet, sloppy, muddy conditions BUT

-more expensive..group brake level to brake level
-more difficult/more involved to set up
-heavier
-less 'aero'(altho, like WHOGAS, right?)

yes, yes, they don't cost a fortune
yes, yes, they are much easier to set up than before but...
yes, yes, for $zillion, you can have a disc brake bike less than the UCI minimum weight
yes, yes..who cares about aero-ness, shave your mustache..

So it's a tradeoff, is not 'magic', IMHO. But if ya gotta have 'em, go buy 'em but it won't make the roses smell better or the sun seem brighter in the morning..it's a brake, it slows ya down.

agree but cycling is a business, so all this new crap will bring more money to the business. Should be good for bike companies and shops no?

I mean in terms of brake installation alone, bleeding brakes is a PITA and takes bit longer, also less people want to do it at home, more people and more money for bike shops.

As an ex shop owner you should be praising discs :bike::hello:

[HenryA]

Wait....

What are we arguing about?

[oldpotatoe]

agree but cycling is a business, so all this new crap will bring more money to the business. Should be good for bike companies and shops no?

I mean in terms of brake installation alone, bleeding brakes is a PITA and takes bit longer, also less people want to do it at home, more people and more money for bike shops.

As an ex shop owner you should be praising discs :bike::hello:

Well, it often makes bikes more expensive and more complicated. Bikes compete with every other leisure time activity. If the bike doesn’t work or takes many trips to LBS, they hang it up and do something else. Gotta remember the object of the ride is the ride, not the bike...

[Burnette]

I think all cyclists are bit obsessive, some more than others.

I have ridden my friends disk brake bike, and the lack of modulation turned me off...but that's my opinion, but I do feel, like my friend experienced and is why he swore his bike would stop better than mine, is that the fast action of the brake lever leads one to believe it's stopping better, but it's the fast action playing tricks on the rider, as our test proved...at least to each other.

While bicycle rotors may not glow when hot they can warp when they get to hot; read: https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/guides/the-beginners-guide-to-disc-brakes/slide/3 Scan down to Disk Brake Rotor Maintenance.

Did you read the cycle news article? That article proves what I've been saying, and they're not doing end on end 30 mph stops or screaming down a mountain at 65mph and slamming the brakes to 0.

I saw that series of rim tests too, but it does beg a question, is it better to have an over engineered product then one that isn't even though it may not be necessary? I lean more towards something being over engineered because of the added margin of safety. It's why on my touring bike I use 40 spoke rims even though 36 would be plenty, it's why when I use to race I ran 36 spoke rims even though 28 would have been plenty, it's why I chose the Enve 2.0 fork rated for 350 pound load even though the 1.0 rated for 240 pounds would have been plenty at my weight of 170. So I'm not sure if those rim tests were are falsehoods, it just simply says they have over engineered their rims. In addition there have been rims that failed in the manner in which his test shows, but those real life failures happened at much less heat then his tests generated...BS you say, well then read these: http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/are-carbon-fiber-clinchers-safe-34521/
This next one especially read the last paragraph entitled BOTTOM LINE: https://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/tech-report-the-real-story-behind-carbon-clinchers Keep in mind that delamination is a problem they haven't fully solved which is why they are moving away from CF rim brakes in favor of disk brakes. This next site has more scientific stuff, and one paragraph discusses the same thing I said I did with my fork; see: http://www.velonews.com/2016/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq-bottom-brackets-carbon-fiber-fatigue_425464

froze, I've do bike rides with a few guys and some charity rides fifty, sixty or seventy riders and a fun game for me is to do the quickest stop. I can beat most by more than a bike length, some by many feet. My weight is the major factor, 140lbs at my worst, 129 lbs at my best, but I also have good technique. As long as you have been riding I bet I could still show you how to do a better panic stop. So again, that dog about your "test" don't" hunt. If it fit, I bet I would stop quicker on your bike than you and your friend and my technique would be the key to most of it. Balls and bike control trump all here.

I rode many major maintenance free years there while some lost money on very expensive carbon wheels where the brake track went. Toss three grand
out and talk to me about costs. I have a friend that just bought a Pinafrello F8 last year and he took the carbon wheel off because of our terrain. With disc he could have his aero wheels (yes, Pinarello makes such a bike, but he got a deal on that F8 he couldn't pass up).

I've has the same rotors since '06 and they look new. I have calipers and a micrometer, I could find out how thick they were new and measure for you now and see how little they have worn if you want.

You have to let the fade thing go, that is just such the red herring and just funny to anybody that works in and rides disc. It's like grasping a straw here.

froze, go ride these bikes. For many miles too and then call me.

[Burnette]

Well, it often makes bikes more expensive and more complicated. Bikes compete with every other leisure time activity. If the bike doesn’t work or takes many trips to LBS, they hang it up and do something else. Gotta remember the object of the ride is the ride, not the bike...

Ol' Tater, just no. Look at disc bikes and rim bikes of a certain caliber and they are all expensive but yiu can have the performance of disc on par with a rim bikes price now. And wow, this whole "complicated/breaks down" thing, well, I'm going to give you credit here and just say with your time on this old rock that really know that's not true and you're just stirring the pot here. I get it, it's 23 degrees here and our computers are keeping us warm!

[Burnette]

Wait....

What are we arguing about?

It's a winter ritual to get on forums and debate the most mundane aspects of our leisure activity. Disc brakes have been a boon for this exercise as they provide so much misinformation tied with so much misdirected passion.

[oldpotatoe]

Ol' Tater, just no. Look at disc bikes and rim bikes of a certain caliber and they are all expensive but yiu can have the performance of disc on par with a rim bikes price now. And wow, this whole "complicated/breaks down" thing, well, I'm going to give you credit here and just say with your time on this old rock that really know that's not true and you're just stirring the pot here. I get it, it's 23 degrees here and our computers are keeping us warm!

Didn’t say nor imply discs break down more than caliper. BUT wet discs work great or not at all. Calipers not so much. Discs ARE much more complicated and involved to install(shortening lines) than caliper. Yes, disc install not rocket surgery but caliper install much more simple.
Yes, And I said they don’t cost any fortune but a bike with 105 on it, all else equal and One has hydro discs and the other rim brakes, the disc will be more expensive cuz...the levers, hubs and brakes are...more expensive.

Just my opinion. Discs are here and will very quickly be all you can find. Just like MTBs, the only ‘V’ brakes you see now are on Walmart $89 bikes, it’ll be same for road stuff.

But geeez lewezzz wish the marketeers didn’t yell, ‘gotta have discs or you’ll DIE’ quite so much. :)

[Burnette]

Didn’t say nor imply discs break down more than caliper. BUT wet discs work great or not at all. Calipers not so much. Discs ARE much more complicated and involved to install(shortening lines) than caliper. Yes, disc install not rocket surgery but caliper install much more simple.
Yes, And I said they don’t cost any fortune but a bike with 105 on it, all else equal and One has hydro discs and the other rim brakes, the disc will be more expensive cuz...the levers, hubs and brakes are...more expensive.

Just my opinion. Discs are here and will very quickly be all you can find. Just like MTBs, the only ‘V’ brakes you see now are on Walmart $89 bikes, it’ll be same for road stuff.

But geeez lewezzz wish the marketeers didn’t yell, ‘gotta have discs or you’ll DIE’ quite so much. :)

Disc brakes perform better in the wet, period, and hey, you've said so much yourself in this very forum, so that ends that.

Customers don't and won't care if they harder to install because they won't be installing them. They will be preassembled bike arriving at their door or be built up by a bike shop, so that argument was and still is moot.

You say disc is more than a 105 group, how odd of you and it bears no relevance to the discussion all.

And lastly you too (we all have, me too) have drunken marketer's Kool Aid as we opine about bicycle baubles that cost way more than they return in actual function. Disc brakes don't fall into that category though. They work as advertised and can be had at great prices on current bikes today.

[Black Dog]

Didn’t say nor imply discs break down more than caliper. BUT wet discs work great or not at all. Calipers not so much. Discs ARE much more complicated and involved to install (shortening lines) than caliper. Yes, disc install not rocket surgery but caliper install much more simple.
Yes, And I said they don’t cost any fortune but a bike with 105 on it, all else equal and One has hydro discs and the other rim brakes, the disc will be more expensive cuz...the levers, hubs and brakes are...more expensive.

Just my opinion. Discs are here and will very quickly be all you can find. Just like MTBs, the only ‘V’ brakes you see now are on Walmart $89 bikes, it’ll be same for road stuff.

But geeez lewezzz wish the marketeers didn’t yell, ‘gotta have discs or you’ll DIE’ quite so much. :)

Disc brakes perform better in the wet, period, and hey, you've said so much yourself in this very forum, so that ends that.

Customers don't and won't care if they harder to install because they won't be installing them. They will be preassembled bike arriving at their door or be built up by a bike shop, so that argument was and still is moot.

You say disc is more than a 105 group, how odd of you and it bears no relevance to the discussion all.

And lastly you too (we all have, me too) have drunken marketer's Kool Aid as we opine about bicycle baubles that cost way more than they return in actual function. Disc brakes don't fall into that category though. They work as advertised and can be had at great prices on current bikes today.

Re-read his post.

[Burnette]

Re-read his post.

It's irrelevant.

[dddd]

"You say disc is more than a 105 group, how odd of you and it bears no relevance to the discussion all."

I think he was saying that 105 hydro disc costs more than the rim caliper gruppo, and that is a solid statement about costs because here it is comparing otherwise identically-equipped bikes as well.
Looking at the gruppo price separately than the fashionable new model bike that suffers seasonal price fluctuation at the sales floor level makes sense to me.

So we have (at same quality levels):

1) Hydro disc-equipped bikes cost more and weigh more.

2) Hydro disc bikes stop better in the wet, and spare the rims from wear while sparing the rider from black staining from wear dust mixed with water coming from the rims. Dents in alloy disc rims do not affect braking, though discs can become damaged though are more easily replaced than rims. Disc brake pads used for dry-weather riding usually wear out faster than rim pads and are more expensive to replace. Disc-equipped bikes are more favorable to the use of carbon rims while retaining excellent braking, though disc wheels weigh more and cost more than standard wheels of the same quality level.

3) Disc-equipped bikes need a very much stiffer fork structure, heavily reinforced along the disc side leg.

4) My opinion here, is that for a disc-equipped bike to enjoy the same level of ride compliance that wider tires run at lower pressures must be part of the equation, and that wider tires are heavier and tend to mop up more thorns from the road. Wide tires also are more favorable to running a tubeless setup, though which at present often requires additional maintenance when off-season or other periods of non-use are a factor.

So it seems that adding disc brakes to a similar-price-point bike is a can of worms as far as figuring out cost-benefit and performance, but achieving the same lightweight performance with disc brakes is going to cost at least one full level of added cost out the door, assuming that is that everything is being inventoried efficiently on both sides of the equation (so no subsidization or inventory blow-outs, which actually are always part of things).

[Burnette]

"You say disc is more than a 105 group, how odd of you and it bears no relevance to the discussion all."

I think he was saying that 105 hydro disc costs more than the rim caliper gruppo, and that is a solid statement about costs because here it is comparing otherwise identically-equipped bikes as well.
Looking at the gruppo price separately than the fashionable new model bike that suffers seasonal price fluctuation at the sales floor level makes sense to me.

So we have (at same quality levels):

1) Hydro disc-equipped bikes cost more and weigh more.

2) Hydro disc bikes stop better in the wet, and spare the rims from wear while sparing the rider from black staining from wear dust mixed with water coming from the rims. Dents in alloy disc rims do not affect braking, though discs can become damaged though are more easily replaced than rims. Disc brake pads used for dry-weather riding usually wear out faster than rim pads and are more expensive to replace. Disc-equipped bikes are more favorable to the use of carbon rims while retaining excellent braking, though disc wheels weigh more and cost more than standard wheels of the same quality level.

3) Disc-equipped bikes need a very much stiffer fork structure, heavily reinforced along the disc side leg.

4) My opinion here, is that for a disc-equipped bike to enjoy the same level of ride compliance that wider tires run at lower pressures must be part of the equation, and that wider tires are heavier and tend to mop up more thorns from the road. Wide tires also are more favorable to running a tubeless setup, though which at present often requires additional maintenance when off-season or other periods of non-use are a factor.

So it seems that adding disc brakes to a similar-price-point bike is a can of worms as far as figuring out cost-benefit and performance, but achieving the same lightweight performance with disc brakes is going to cost at least one full level of added cost out the door, assuming that is that everything is being inventoried efficiently on both sides of the equation (so no subsidization or inventory blow-outs, which actually are always part of things).

No, you're way over thinking it. Cost levels is fools errand as you can play with levels to get your desired number, so again, it's irrelevant. And as far the fork goes, red herring there as even rim carbon bikes have very firm forks an the added weight is negligible and the requirement for tires does not exist.

Again, there are some great dsic bikes out there now, you just have to go ride them and these fallacies will fall away.

[Elefantino]

Had their been an Internet when STI first arrived we would be having a similar discussion, I assume.

[Burnette]

Had their been an Internet when STI first arrived we would be having a similar discussion, I assume.

You're right and I don't get it. I'm going to go out on limb here and say Paceline tends greying to grey and older folk just don't like change even when it's better, they get set in their ways.

[Gummee]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/uHFSSXOSnxs

Just sayin

M

Edited to add a thought or two: How many road riders actually ride in the wet. *Most* of the non-racers I know hang the bike up when it isn't sunny out. So... if it IS sunny out, the difference between discs and rim brakes is so minimal as to be irrelevant.

Now, gravel, CX, or all-weather commuting? That's another story. I'll fully agree that discs are better in those circumstances.

[Burnette]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/uHFSSXOSnxs

Just sayin

M

Edited to add a thought or two: How many road riders actually ride in the wet. *Most* of the non-racers I know hang the bike up when it isn't sunny out. So... if it IS sunny out, the difference between discs and rim brakes is so minimal as to be irrelevant.

Now, gravel, CX, or all-weather commuting? That's another story. I'll fully agree that discs are better in those circumstances.

I'm a fair weather ride but who hasn't been caught out in the rain a few times? So disc brakes add security. Now add that even in the dry the offer better modulation. That's two positives. See those nice high dollar wheels those guys had? How about the rims aren't worn down like rims brakes, your expensive wheels are saved.

That's three advantages. Disc will sell themselves.

[Gummee]

I'm a fair weather ride but who hasn't been caught out in the rain a few times? So disc brakes add security. Now add that even in the dry the offer better modulation. That's two positives. See those nice high dollar wheels those guys had? How about the rims aren't worn down like rims brakes, your expensive wheels are saved.

That's three advantages. Disc will sell themselves.

Heavier
Non-interchangeable
non-aero
more expensive

...and worst: requires a dedicated bicycle to run discs

Nope. I don't see a need for discs on road bikes for how most people ride them. Yes, I have disc brake bikes. Rode my SSCX with hydro discs yesterday. Meh. Didn't notice a difference between that ride and the ride on my rim-braked bike.

M

[Burnette]

Heavier
Non-interchangeable
non-aero
more expensive

...and worst: requires a dedicated bicycle to run discs

Nope. I don't see a need for discs on road bikes for how most people ride them. Yes, I have disc brake bikes. Rode my SSCX with hydro discs yesterday. Meh. Didn't notice a difference between that ride and the ride on my rim-braked bike.

M

See bikes I posted earlier in this thread. Frames at just over 800 grams, complete bikes at 15lbs.
For aero, Canyon, Giant, Colnago and many, many others have disc and aero covered.
Price range varies by brand and model just as with rim brakes.
People who are pre-biased against disc will talk them down like I said earlier in this thread, your testimonial just proves that fact.

[dddd]

No, you're way over thinking it. Cost levels is fools errand as you can play with levels to get your desired number, so again, it's irrelevant. And as far the fork goes, red herring there as even rim carbon bikes have very firm forks an the added weight is negligible and the requirement for tires does not exist.

Again, there are some great dsic bikes out there now, you just have to go ride them and these fallacies will fall away.

The cost levels are no fools errand when the higher cost of equivalent disc bike goes even quite a bit higher yet to, as you say, "play with the levels", to the tune of having to use a much more expensive gruppo trying to get the weight back down to even near the equivalent rim-braked bike.

The manufacturers are trying very hard to build credibly-light disc-equipped bikes, such as Giant's new high-end offering that achieves weight as low as any of their bikes to date (though they offer no equivalent rim-braked model for comparison). But see how it's weight compares to a same-priced rim-braked Emonda!

But it is then argued that because of the UCI minimum weight limit that none of this matters, and at this price level (but only under UCI scrutiny) the weights can be truly equivalent at the pro races. But this has nothing to do with buying bikes in the lower price ranges, where the disc models are much heavier, and more expensive.

And it is true that with today's road race bikes that their large-section fork structures (in the quest for lightest weight) are very stiff to begin with.
But not all bikes yet use such forks, especially among more-utilitartian offerings. I'll refrain from comparing my steel bike's ride qualities to my stiff-yet-rim-braked Colnago CX-Zero, since that goes into different markets altogether, but suffice to say that replacing a traditional fork with any disc fork will have big implications WRT bump absorbance.

[Burnette]

The cost levels are no fools errand when the higher cost of equivalent disc bike goes even quite a bit higher yet to, as you say, "play with the levels", to the tune of having to use a much more expensive gruppo trying to get the weight back down to even near the equivalent rim-braked bike.

The manufacturers are trying very hard to build credibly-light disc-equipped bikes, such as Giant's new high-end offering that achieves weight as low as any of their bikes to date (though they offer no equivalent rim-braked model for comparison). But see how it's weight compares to a same-priced rim-braked Emonda!

But it is then argued that because of the UCI minimum weight limit that none of this matters, and at this price level (but only under UCI scrutiny) the weights can be truly equivalent at the pro races. But this has little to do with buying bikes in the lower price ranges, where the disc models are much heavier, and more expensive.

And it is true that with today's road race bikes that their large-section fork structures (in the quest for lightest weight) are very stiff to begin with.
But not all bikes yet use such forks, especially among more-utilitartian offerings. I'll refrain from comparing my steel bike's ride qualities to my stiff-yet-rim-braked Colnago CX-Zero, since that goes into different markets altogether, but suffice to say that replacing a traditional fork with any disc fork will have big implications WRT bump absorbance.

Yeah, you're right that what works for your steel bike is irrelevant to modern carbon bikes and the discussion at hand. Whether rim or disc, modern carbon forks are stiff as hell and can be so because the wheel/tire packages, both light weight btw, deal just fine with this issue.

And price? Well, I'll tell you why anyone sitting on rim brake inventory and a stake in selling more would do well to run from the "cheaper" train of thought expressed here.

I’ll give you the cost angle, it's wrong but let's run with it, and then show you were it would only hasten the death or at least severe drop in use of rim brakes. How? Because you’re saying the only redeeming value of rim is price, being cheap, then they will surely become associated with cheap bikes, Wal Mart fodder and therefore seen as inferior to disc on that metric alone. I don't agree with that but that's how perception works.

In the mean time we all know disc bikes have and will more so in the future come down in price to where what the hell, you’ll spend a few more to spring for the disc.

If all you can hang you can hang your hat on is that you’re cheap, then you’ll be forever relegated to that status. If you want to give disc the high road the makers will surely take it. And they could in turn point to better modulation, better wet and dry braking and saving rim life to boot to justify it. Again, disc sell themselves and I reality, prices will steadily drop and weight is already a non issue.

I have shown several examples of light weight go fast disc bikes, so the argument against them on price here is moot. Their rim brake equivalents are just as pricey.

[oldpotatoe]

Didn’t say nor imply discs break down more than caliper. BUT wet discs work great or not at all. Calipers not so much. Discs ARE much more complicated and involved to install(shortening lines) than caliper. Yes, disc install not rocket surgery but caliper install much more simple.
Yes, And I said they don’t cost any fortune but a bike with 105 on it, all else equal and One has hydro discs and the other rim brakes, the disc will be more expensive cuz...the levers, hubs and brakes are...more expensive.

Just my opinion. Discs are here and will very quickly be all you can find. Just like MTBs, the only ‘V’ brakes you see now are on Walmart $89 bikes, it’ll be same for road stuff.

But geeez lewezzz wish the marketeers didn’t yell, ‘gotta have discs or you’ll DIE’ quite so much. :)

Disc brakes perform better in the wet, period, and hey, you've said so much yourself in this very forum, so that ends that.

Customers don't and won't care if they harder to install because they won't be installing them. They will be preassembled bike arriving at their door or be built up by a bike shop, so that argument was and still is moot.

You say disc is more than a 105 group, how odd of you and it bears no relevance to the discussion all.

And lastly you too (we all have, me too) have drunken marketer's Kool Aid as we opine about bicycle baubles that cost way more than they return in actual function. Disc brakes don't fall into that category though. They work as advertised and can be had at great prices on current bikes today.

Ok, you can choose to parse my comments and add and subtract what you wish to what I said, fine and dandy. You see disc brakes as a ‘game changer’, fine and dandy. Compared to a well made set of caliper brakes, as you mentioned above, discs are a ‘bike bauble that cost way more than they return in actual function’.
Your comments are in the ‘alloy chainring bolts’, arena. In that you imply caliper brakes are essentially unsafe and alumninum rims wear out all the time. In my experience, they are wacked way before they wear out and even in the wet, my Delta brakes stop me fine...as you mentioned before, handling skills, finesse, mean a lot. I think that hydro disc brakes, like lever mounted, index/click shifting, is firmly in the ‘nice to have’ bucket. But essential, in view of modern calipers? Nope.
I still gotta wonder, if they are such a ‘game changer’, the major makers are FullSpeedAhead behind them, why the majority of the professional peloton is still on caliper brakes??

Remember also, a discussion, no reason to get sweated up about it...bikes, a part on a toy. :)

[dddd]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2295335]
...Because you’re saying the only redeeming value of rim is price...
QUOTE]

Who are you quoting there? Is this like your thought experiment or did someone say that?

[Burnette]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2295232]

Ok, you can choose to parse my comments and add and subtract what you wish to what I said, fine and dandy. You see disc brakes as a ‘game changer’, fine and dandy. Compared to a well made set of caliper brakes, as you mentioned above, discs are a ‘bike bauble that cost way more than they return in actual function’.
Your comments are in the ‘alloy chainring bolts’, arena. In that you imply caliper brakes are essentially unsafe and alumninum rims wear out all the time. In my experience, they are wacked way before they wear out and even in the wet, my Delta brakes stop me fine...as you mentioned before, handling skills, finesse, mean a lot. I think that hydro disc brakes, like lever mounted, index/click shifting, is firmly in the ‘nice to have’ bucket. But essential, in view of modern calipers? Nope.
I still gotta wonder, if they are such a ‘game changer’, the major makers are FullSpeedAhead behind them, why the majority of the professional peloton is still on caliper brakes??
Remember also, a discussion, no reason to get sweated up about it...bikes, a part on a toy. :)

"In that you imply caliper brakes are essentially unsafe and alumninum rims wear out all the time.", Nope, your words, no argument from me.

And it was pointed out to me a long time ago that what the pros ride has little to no bearing on what the majority buys. It's true. And even you have to agree that pro cycling is cycling's WWE, it's only about entertainment, brand marketing and doping scandals. The biggest news out of this year's TDF will be about Froome's test, not what anyone is riding. It's a joke, an old and repeated one. You would really have to be drinking the marketing Kool Aid to believe they are actually relevant. Even no cyclist don't, it's an obvious show.

I agree with the no sweat comment too. This had been a really great disc thread so far. Some good points for their use has been made by even those biased against them and a convert or two may be in the making.

[etu]

You're right and I don't get it. I'm going to go out on limb here and say Paceline tends greying to grey and older folk just don't like change even when it's better, they get set in their ways.

OP you're clearly having a senior moment. That's all. :)

[Burnette]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2295335]
...Because you’re saying the only redeeming value of rim is price...
QUOTE]

Who are you quoting there? Is this like your thought experiment or did someone say that?

It's is an often used angle in this thread and even in your post.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe;2295347]

"In that you imply caliper brakes are essentially unsafe and alumninum rims wear out all the time.", Nope, your words, no argument from me.

And it was pointed out to me a long time ago that what the pros ride has little to no bearing on what the majority buys. It's true. And even you have to agree that pro cycling is cycling's WWE, it's only about entertainment, brand marketing and doping scandals. The biggest news out of this year's TDF will be about Froome's test, not what anyone is riding. It's a joke, an old and repeated one. You would really have to be drinking the marketing Kool Aid to believe they are actually relevant. Even no cyclist don't, it's an obvious show.

I agree with the no sweat comment too. This had been a really great disc thread so far. Some good points for their use has been made by even those biased against them and a convert or two may be in the making.

‘Convert or two’, spoken like a true disc brake evangelist..:)

Whether or not I am or anyother’civilian’ is biased means nada, as a ‘former’ bike shop owner, I don’t have to
-use
-sell
-or work on

Disc brakes. Unless you claim I’m ‘hurting’ the bike industry but it doesn’t need me to shoot itself in the foot.

[Burnette]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2295360]

‘Convert or two’, spoken like a true disc brake evangelist..:)

Whether or not I am or anyother’civilian’ is biased means nada, as a ‘former’ bike shop owner, I don’t have to
-use
-sell
-or work on

Disc brakes. Unless you claim I’m ‘hurting’ the bike industry but it doesn’t need me to shoot itself in the foot.

First of all I in no way wrote or believe you are hurting the industry, that's crazy. You're fine and the bike industry doesn't hang on our words, so we're good. Just talking bikes.

Now Tater, that was kinda hard to follow but I like a good challenge, let me know if I got you right.

I think you were trying to say that you no longer have to be bothered with such matters and the bike industry doesn't need you to harm itself. Am I close?

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe;2295368]

First of all I in no way wrote or believe you are hurting the industry, that's crazy. You're fine and the bike industry doesn't hang on our words, so we're good. Just talking bikes.

Now Tater, that was kinda hard to follow but I like a good challenge, let me know if I got you right.

I think you were trying to say that you no longer have to be bothered with such matters and the bike industry doesn't need you to harm itself. Am I close?

Pretty close but it’s always interesting to get wet with these discussions. We could have other discussions about the other market driver drivel, like road tubeless, tapered forks, seat masts, idiotic BB’stsndards, followed by ton ‘o axle ‘standards’, lots of stuff.

But geez, people get heated when you say ‘discs are dumb’...you work for sram?

[Burnette]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2295372]

Pretty close but it’s always interesting to get wet with these discussions. We could have other discussions about the other market driver drivel, like road tubeless, tapered forks, seat masts, idiotic BB’stsndards, followed by ton ‘o axle ‘standards’, lots of stuff.

But geez, people get heated when you say ‘discs are dumb’...you work for sram?

Yeah, I don't get the heat either, but what I've found is that once you get through all the biased arguments you're left with someone who just doesn't like them. Not on merit or reasoning, they just don't like them. And that's OK just have that alone without the red herrings and false arguments.

But even at that we should, can and did discuss them in good manner.
It'll be about integrated electronics in two years Tater.

[dddd]

[QUOTE=dddd;2295350]

It's is an often used angle in this thread and even in your post.

Where in my post, which post?

[Gummee]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe;2295376]

Yeah, I don't get the heat either, but what I've found is that once you get through all the biased arguments you're left with someone who just doesn't like them. Not on merit or reasoning, they just don't like them. And that's OK just have that alone without the red herrings and false arguments.

But even at that we should, can and did discuss them in good manner.
It'll be about integrated electronics in two years Tater.
I have discs on 3 mtn bikes and my SSCX. I do not have them on my CX bikes (yet) but am probably caving in this summer.

Planning on having a pair of custom AL CX bikes built w/ TAs and discs. If I don't, I'll keep racing my canti CX bikes and swap out to my rigid 29er for our couple of mud races. Seemed to work last season... I can tell you it wasn't the braking holding me back.

I probably won't have them on my pure road bikes any time soon. Don't see the need.

M

[Elefantino]

You're right and I don't get it. I'm going to go out on limb here and say Paceline tends greying to grey and older folk just don't like change even when it's better, they get set in their ways.
Get off my lawn.

[choke]

It's a winter ritual to get on forums and debate the most mundane aspects of our leisure activity. Disc brakes have been a boon for this exercise as they provide so much misinformation tied with so much misdirected passion.Regarding the bold, that passion obviously goes both ways. There is plenty on the pro-disc side as well.

Had their been an Internet when STI first arrived we would be having a similar discussion, I assume.Perhaps so. But one fundamental difference between the two is that installing Ergo/STI levers doesn't require an entirely new frame and fork. I could put a set of Ergos on my 1966 Frejus and the only modification I would need to do is to spread the rear triangle....retrofitting it with discs (I cringe typing that) would be an entirely different proposition.

Some good points for their use has been made by even those biased against them and a convert or two may be in the making.I doubt that anyone is going to be converted by this thread....

[Burnette]

Regarding the bold, that passion obviously goes both ways. There is plenty on the pro-disc side as well.

Perhaps so. But one fundamental difference between the two is that installing Ergo/STI levers doesn't require an entirely new frame and fork. I could put a set of Ergos on my 1966 Frejus and the only modification I would need to do is to spread the rear triangle....retrofitting it with discs (I cringe typing that) would be an entirely different proposition.

I doubt that anyone is going to be converted by this thread....

Oh, I know they won't, I was just ribbing Tator and Gummee, see my titles! Gotta have some fun with these guys.

[Burnette]

Get off my lawn.

Thanks for that!

[Burnette]

[QUOTE=Burnette;2295381]
I have discs on 3 mtn bikes and my SSCX. I do not have them on my CX bikes (yet) but am probably caving in this summer.

Planning on having a pair of custom AL CX bikes built w/ TAs and discs. If I don't, I'll keep racing my canti CX bikes and swap out to my rigid 29er for our couple of mud races. Seemed to work last season... I can tell you it wasn't the braking holding me back.

I probably won't have them on my pure road bikes any time soon. Don't see the need.

M

Kudos on the CX racing. Tough sport, I have friends who do it here in NC and they love disc for CX and road. We've got serious hills here. They mostly do indoor interval training and CX course training. They use the road mostly for form building base miles.

[Mark McM]

So, here are my final thoughts on this subject:

There are variety of different viable brake options. For hub brakes, their are disc brakes and drum brakes. For rim brakes, there are single or dual pivot side pulls, centerpulls, cantilever brakes, linear pull brakes, etc. There is no perfect brake - each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and the selection of one type over another a matter of trade-offs. Which is best for any particular situation depends on weighing the importance of the various pros and cons.

All that being said, while there are certainly some advantages to disc brakes for road riding, there are also some disadvantages. For the the majority of road riding that I do, and indeed most road riders I see doing, the disadvantages of disc brakes outweigh their advantages. Your situation may be different.

But here's my main point: It is false to say that the type of brakes used by other people doesn't affect me. That's because the commonality of one type product affect the availability (and cost) of competing products. Here's another example: Back when most bikes had forks with 1" threaded steerers, there was wide availability of 1" threaded forks on the market. Now that most bikes have larger diameter threadless steerers, there are far fewer 1" threaded forks available. Sure, there are still a few available, but there is much smaller selection, and one may have to pay more if they need to go to a custom builder for fulfill their needs.

Right now, one can get a wide variety of different rim brakes: Inexpensive low-end rim brakes, expensive high-end rim brakes, standard mount or direct mount rim brakes, boutique ultra-light rim brakes, aerodynamic rim brakes, high leverage or low leverage rim brakes, etc. If disc brakes become ubiquitous on road bikes, surely the variety of different types of rim brakes available will be greatly reduced. At that time, if I want to use a particular type of rim brake that is no longer available, then your choice of disc brakes WILL have affected me.

[Gummee]

Oh, I know they won't, I was just ribbing Tator and Gummee, see my titles! Gotta have some fun with these guys.

I LIKE discs. ...in the right application.

I don't see road bikes as the right application

M

[Burnette]

I LIKE discs. ...in the right application.

I don't see road bikes as the right application

M

Some do and some don't and that's ok, keep riding Gummee.

[Kirk007]

At that time, if I want to use a particular type of rim brake that is no longer available, then your choice of disc brakes WILL have affected me.

Well it's a robust market for high quality parts here on Paceline (and if the hypo you pose comes remotely close to true it will be even more robust). Stock up!

[ergott]

Give me an example of a road bike you'd like to get within the next 5 years that you think is in danger of being phased out in favor of disc brakes.

I wholeheartedly believe that the two technologies will coexist for the foreseeable future.

[Hilltopperny]

Give me an example of a road bike you'd like to get within the next 5 years that you think is in danger of being phased out in favor of disc brakes.

I wholeheartedly believe there the two technologies will coexist for the foreseeable future.Agreed, ride what you like. I do not see an unavailability of rim brakes in the foreseeable future just because some people are riding road disc.

This is a hobby for most of us. I enjoy building up framesets and riding different bikes in my spare time. I love my rim brake bikes and they have all served me well, but the hydro discs with ice tech rotors have been the best braking I've experienced on a bicycle thus far.

They enable me to try out some fancy carbon wheels without destroying them or having them delaminate on a long decent. I also like that I can run 28s on a road bike without worrying about them fitting under the caliper of a rim brake.

I saw an earlier reference that implies that those who need the latest and greatest are easily led by marketing and nothing else. I can assure you that isn't the case here. I do not read too much marketing drivel and having worked in sales and studied marketing I am fully aware of the process. I do however like to try things out myself and determine if it is right for me.

I find it is about choice and I am glad I can choose for myself what I'd like to ride on any given day. Discs are just one of those choices as are rim brakes and nobody is forcing anybody to ride either of them.




Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Gummee]

Some do and some don't and that's ok, keep riding Gummee.

I agree, but the marketers constantly trying to sell 'the next best thing since sliced bread' aka discs to me is getting old.

I get it that people need to sell bikes, but c'mon!

Oh, and follow Rule #5 paraphrased to say 'shut up and ride your bike more.'

M

[FlashUNC]

Give me an example of a road bike you'd like to get within the next 5 years that you think is in danger of being phased out in favor of disc brakes.

I wholeheartedly believe that the two technologies will coexist for the foreseeable future.

If you want a Giant Propel, for example, they are disc only as of this year.

[ergott]

If you want a Giant Propel, for example, they are disc only as of this year.

And who here was contemplating one, but regrets missing out on the rim brake model?

I just don't think the anti-disc demographic is losing out on their choices as fast as they are worrying about. There are more choices now, not fewer.

[Kirk007]

because "need" and fun are not the same thing. These are fun in January. Veloflex roubaix tubulars will be fun in July

[wildboar]

Durianrider says no to disc brakes:

https://youtu.be/Jwbzi6Wd-pI?t=1m14s

But yes to 40 banana smoothies

[Burnette]

Durianrider says no to disc brakes:

https://youtu.be/Jwbzi6Wd-pI?t=1m14s

But yes to 40 banana smoothies

I can't listen to ten straight seconds of that guy before I click off. He's irritating. He's nuts. And bananas!

[72gmc]

Bananas are ok. Peanut butter too? Honey?

Not listening either way.

[oldpotatoe]

I can't listen to ten straight seconds of that guy before I click off. He's irritating. He's nuts. And bananas!

And .....NO DISC BRAKES!!:)

[Burnette]

And .....NO DISC BRAKES!!:)

I dare you to watch five of his videos back to back. I dare you!

Nobody cares what he thinks about anything.

[dddd]

There's a local rider here of considerable accomplishment who just about swears by everything that DurianRider says.
I observed his beliefs recently when he ordered a post-ride pizza to take home, had it made with no meat or even cheese!

But DurianRider is apparently right about certain things, and this local fellow even finally started following my advice on bike fit after listening to DurianRider.

DurianRider seems like a demagogue-ish sort of guy at times, but I guess that's just part of his over-top style. Could he be related to the Trump family perhaps?

[Burnette]

There's a local rider here of considerable accomplishment who just about swears by everything that DurianRider says.
I observed his beliefs recently when he ordered a post-ride pizza to take home, had it made with no meat or even cheese!

But DurianRider is apparently right about certain things, and this local fellow even finally started following my advice on bike fit after listening to DurianRider.

DurianRider seems like a demagogue-ish sort of guy at times, but I guess that's just part of his over-top style. Could he be related to the Trump family perhaps?

Typical of vloggers, he is going after hits for revenue, hence the over the top mess that's hard to watch. As far as his weird dogma, well, book shelves are full of such oils.

[Mark McM]

Typical of vloggers, he is going after hits for revenue, hence the over the top mess that's hard to watch. As far as his weird dogma, well, book shelves are full of such oils.

When ad revenues are based on number of views, hate watchers generate just as much revenue as true believers.

Why do think television is so crowded with over-the-top reality shows (often feature reprehensible personalities)?

[Burnette]

When ad revenues are based on number of views, hate watchers generate just as much revenue as true believers.

Why do think television is so crowded with over-the-top reality shows (often feature reprehensible personalities)?

He got two clicks from be before I bailed, Ugh. Unwatchable. But good on 'em for making an honest living, just not my cup of joe.

[ptourkin]

Durianrider says no to disc brakes:

https://youtu.be/Jwbzi6Wd-pI?t=1m14s

But yes to 40 banana smoothies

Fellow vegan, can't stand him. Couldn't even watch the rant about how Keywin pedals are the best ever...

[cadence90]

There's a local rider here of considerable accomplishment who just about swears by everything that DurianRider says.
I observed his beliefs recently when he ordered a post-ride pizza to take home, had it made with no meat or even cheese!
:rolleyes:

Hold the chicken.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdIXrF34Bz0)

Waitress: Well, I'll come back when you make up your mind.
Dupea: Wait a minute. I have made up my mind. I'd like a plain omelette, no potatoes on the plate, a cup of coffee, and a side order of wheat toast.
Waitress: I'm sorry. We don't have any side orders of toast. I'll give you an English muffin or a coffee roll.
Dupea: What do you mean you don't make side orders of toast? You make sandwiches, don't you?
Waitress: Would you like to talk to the manager?
Dupea: You've got bread and a toaster of some kind?
Waitress: I don't make the rules.
Dupea: Okay, I'll make it as easy for you as I can. I'd like an omelette, plain, and a chicken salad sandwich on wheat toast, no mayonnaise, no butter, no lettuce, and a cup of coffee.
Waitress: A number two, chicken sal san, hold the butter, the lettuce, and the mayonnaise, and a cup of coffee. Anything else?
Dupea: Yeah. Now all you have to do is hold the chicken, bring me the toast, give me a check for the chicken salad sandwich, and you haven't broken any rules.
.
.

[wildboar]

There's a local rider here of considerable accomplishment who just about swears by everything that DurianRider says.


Next time you get the chance, ask him if he goes to bed at 7:30 like durianrider.

[Burnette]

Next time you get the chance, ask him if he goes to bed at 7:30 like durianrider.

In boxing, good boxer, Pacquaio drinks his own pee, true story. Does that mean you have to do that to be a good boxer? Thankfully no.

How anyone could bare to watch durain is the mystery, to follow him is absurd.

[wildboar]

:rolleyes:
Hold the chicken.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdIXrF34Bz0)


You can still get your toast here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0344228,-123.040622,3a,75y,323.1h,76.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFThnBZju2iwWNnorRylWaA!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656?hl=en