Columbus TSX tubing

[Cicli]

Looking at a bike built with this tubing. Where does it fit in the lineup?
Good stuff? Bad stuff? Okay?

[Spaghetti Legs]

High end Columbus tubing. I believe it’s the next generation after SLX. Came out around 1990. Bianchi had a frame made of this and the Eddie Merckx Century was made from this.

[hollowgram5]

It's definitely towards the top of the mark. Similar to SLX because it had the rifling inside the tubes.

More info here.. http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm

There's lots of images of old catalog pages if you dig around on the web.. I post some more later if I can find them..

Lemond used it on a number of his frames if I remember right.. I would love an SPX bike myself, missed a few of them over the years that were quite unique.

[sales guy]

Looking at a bike built with this tubing. Where does it fit in the lineup?
Good stuff? Bad stuff? Okay?

Here's an older list. It doesn't have Spirit, Zona, Life, Brain and some others. But it gives you an idea. Good stuff. Makes a nice bike.

[cadence90]

TSX is good, but pretty heavy ime.

I had a TSX Scapin once. The bicycle rode great (~58TT) but was a tank, even compared to my fairy porky Ishiwata Bridgestone RB-1. I am not a small guy, and I just did not enjoy that Scapin.

There are plenty of Columbus tubing descriptions online; here is one (http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm).
.
.

[sales guy]

Also Bicycling did a test of 7 frames? that had different tubing but all made the same way in the same size by the same guy- Antonio Mondonico. That's a good thing to check out.

[merckx]

I always wanted a TSX Merckx Century. Telecom livery would be swell. I've ridden, and raced many Merckx frames over the years, but this one has eluded me.

[merckx]

Also Bicycling did a test of 7 frames? that had different tubing but all made the same way in the same size by the same guy- Antonio Mondonico. That's a good thing to check out.

Bicycle Guide.

[sales guy]

Bicycle Guide.

Correct. I forget the name switch. My bad.

[Peter P.]

TSX was Columbus' highest level, "old standard" dimensioned tubing. It was used on pro-level bikes. Whatever it is you're looking to buy was a high end frame in its day.

[veggieburger]

Light (for steel), snappy, very good tubing.

[Hilltopperny]

Had a Merckx extra corsa 10th anniversary with tsx tubing. High end for the day and a nice smooth ride.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I always wanted a TSX Merckx Century. Telecom livery would be swell. I've ridden, and raced many Merckx frames over the years, but this one has eluded me.

I have a Century in the first ‘89 version in Reynolds 653. It is a wonderful bike.

[Gummee]

Lots of pros rode TSX. Stiffer than SL or SLX

Comparatively anyway

M

[peanutgallery]

TSX was stiff and heavy, didn't ride all that well. Frame is probably almost 25 years old

If it has a cool paint job, that changes things

[alexstar]

I had a TSX Serotta, rode great under my 190 lbs. Stiff and responsive. Maybe not ideal for a featherweight. Bike was no heavyweight either, total weight was 18 lbs with 2010 carbon Centaur and Shamals, Serotta titanium quill stem and Syntace aluminum bars and post.

[oldpotatoe]

High end Columbus tubing. I believe it’s the next generation after SLX. Came out around 1990. Bianchi had a frame made of this and the Eddie Merckx Century was made from this.

Haven't read all the posts but SLX had internal 'rifling' at end of tubes(supposedly for brazeon front der tab strength) and TSX, rifling thruout. Otherwise essentially same dimensions as SL.

[redir]

TSX is good, but pretty heavy ime.

I had a TSX Scapin once. The bicycle rode great (~58TT) but was a tank, even compared to my fairy porky Ishiwata Bridgestone RB-1. I am not a small guy, and I just did not enjoy that Scapin.

There are plenty of Columbus tubing descriptions online; here is one (http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm).
.
.

Yup. I have a GL Coores Lite bike from 1990 in TSX and it is indeed a tank. IT does feel good on the road though.

[sales guy]

Yup. I have a GL Coores Lite bike from 1990 in TSX and it is indeed a tank. IT does feel good on the road though.

what size? If it's a 60, wanna sell it?

[Cicli]

Well,
I found a Slim Chance in my size and after some negotiating was able to get it for a good price. It will get a modern drivetrain and carbon wheelset. Should be a fun retro mod bike.

[El Chaba]

TSX is relatively light tubing. Lighter than SLX. For those under the impression that it is heavy, I would assume that there were some heavier tubes mixed in.
I have a deRosa Nuovo Classico made from TSX tubing and it really is a great riding machine. 21 lbs exactly with Record 9 speed, tubulars and no titanium heroics...

[sales guy]

Well,
I found a Slim Chance in my size and after some negotiating was able to get it for a good price. It will get a modern drivetrain and carbon wheelset. Should be a fun retro mod bike.

Surprised it isn't true temper tubed. that's what he usually used.

[merckx]

Surprised it isn't true temper tubed. that's what he usually used.

The Slims I've seen were TSX.

[sales guy]

The Slims I've seen were TSX.

Back when I was selling them they were True Temper. That was the early to mid-90's when they closed up. Had an unattractive decal on the toptube.

[fignon's barber]

This Thread Needs Pictures.

[redir]

what size? If it's a 60, wanna sell it?

It's a 63 and it's a keeper ;)

[jamesdak]

TSX is relatively light tubing. Lighter than SLX. For those under the impression that it is heavy, I would assume that there were some heavier tubes mixed in.
I have a deRosa Nuovo Classico made from TSX tubing and it really is a great riding machine. 21 lbs exactly with Record 9 speed, tubulars and no titanium heroics...

Yep, I have one of these too. Built as spec'd below it weighs 19 lbs 7 ozs with pedals, bottle cages, and computer mount and sensors.

Nuovo Classico TSX Frame - 54 cm
2017 Campagnolo Chorus groupset 50/34 172.5 crank, 11-29 cassette
Fulcrum Racing 3 wheels with GP4000s II 700 x 25 tires and Vittoria latex tubes
Fizik Antares R3 Saddle
Thompson Masterpiece seatpost
Look Keo 2 Max pedals
Campagnolo Record Headset
Nitto Dynamic 10 100mm stem
Nitto Noodle Handlebars
Bontrager Gel Cork Tape
Bontrager Alloy Bottle Cages

A lovely riding bike that just disappears under you the faster you go.

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/166363859.jpg

[echelon_john]

Let me know if you change your mind! : )

It's a 63 and it's a keeper ;)

[hollowgram5]

It's a 63 and it's a keeper ;)Care to share a picture for us other big guys? [emoji481]

[lhuerta]

Aaron, u can't go wrong with TSX tubing...especially if it is on a frame that fits you. My Merckx Century TSX is one of the most sublime rides I have ever experienced....this is a 10th Anniversary frame professionally resprayed by Allen Wanta.

I was going to post this for sale once winter thawed but i will consider parting with it now if here are any takers (I apologize for thread drift). 56cm c to c, Century geo ...

[jmoore]

It's a 63 and it's a keeper ;)

63?! Now this thread really needs pictures!!

[merckx]

Merckx always got his fork rakes right. Derosa too.

[lemania]

A visual of reinforcement placement.

https://s9.postimg.org/wbzr5ofin/tsx_tubing_layout.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[merckx]

IIRC SLX was 9/6/9, so TSX a wee bit lighter.

[El Chaba]

Yes, I have 1966 g. as the tubeset weight for SLX in an old catalog here...

[martl]

as with many of those mystical, legendary tubesets, i'm prepared to bet good money no one could tell TSX from SLX, SPX or EL in a blind test. No one.

in my experience, how a bike of that era handles and feels, is more down to the construction of the frame (which lugs, and, most importantly: is it reinforced behind the BB) and the individual execution of that construction (as in: was the guy/gal doing the brazing hung over/bored/lovesick/mad because his team lost on the weekend/etc on that day or not). Same features influence the total weight of the frame more than the tubeset chosen. And that is if if we rule out different forks which have a bigger impact alltogether.

That being said, TSX is mucho forte on the mojo scale, and is thus more desireable than SL/Aelle/Cromor etc.

[jamesdak]

I can offer up this too.

I've got an early 90s Greg Lemond Maillot Jaune made of TSX too. It's a very comfortable ride at any distance. But I also set my PR for my 25 mile route on it this year and have not been able to beat that time with any of my other bikes. This despite a shifting problem with the RD setup on this bike that keeps me from standing and accelerating from a stop or slowdown on it. The most notable characteristic of this bike is how well it picks speed back up when I lose concentration and how easily it carries speed even when I'm tired.

I can't say it's better or worse than any of my other types of steels bikes. It's just as good as any of the other bikes in it's own way.

56cm and weighs 20 lb 13 ozs as pictured.

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/166138354.jpg

[redir]

I'm not much of a photographer but... She's got Campy 8-Speed Record/Chorus mix.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pIpU8PHzHibi1A6-XD-21KZJAyT-XKzXaAC9hjqmpbh5Us1AnpFdRxQhp6FMKYqhtVrNrT3SMAXBTp KTNuzMkSjX1raTI3g0q0Svjq2JQf95B_sSNTBnK301PVFLtbFK CSvDktfYV-3QsX1EecINDbio6C5mQmx24cWYDL0a3dvb1DN0Wh-4cslkiZscIptGCnsIu3HMNdWflRdc06_HKhDmPZmJwbEwkvW6y iotFIUL_lB4bReQ2NI9FFMFdgfgwdVwqTueEqJove7Kg0ztLKt GYUED2mYC17o3KyqHnGmOtQhZB6-IunzFJ8lfjsCkCmQspMk9VQZfGd_pgMxsZyJAcGZl5YfRFCYPT FFTIZhfbxL8rrJliDsL4mFziRb961a38rvqj-M2h1VKU1z3av4Y7rscld2UlmN_YNOyZWAiJfOhLSKE3YEBqlr8 yXox91DQMhdby7T2ZJGrK7GDq8d_3VenM25AEgLiQ6cUZtp8Nu aHnFGvuHE0LGXL6MFQTJyQBYbPJjACPAzMjRfU_FAKiRVHk4m2 PdbESi-SGoI-_KwBjqlA7izvE0tEuDTEW5Lmdcie6NMxJQxU38VR3xmUG_zSDB aIxwGdRbQ=w782-h968-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PcIuFyd9Xl0c2FqaBs0CdCWzrx42p_g5U_iOWo_z8N5qug34tO Spf3A-D8JNp7aXkKx_QpLCGdcd0Xr4Vc_aCZXTTW1UNFPm0qp9aCqTvI qEj9umeSBMkkTY_DciD-m4zEN05LUYlRXYB6TT15knsaf4kSTc-Ymxa8Tr2BJ8KN1Cs3zwCUTUDL0GJWXTtfzNU76IiZQGVmnieDl Rzowfy42X7oVW3c7GFJEngwF8bp_ZpweaMUM4npkNvJlhKwAyq PzfjpM8p8R1Ty1QAGjLsMvhgJWz9h6oWHNOWGUmn3ylPZVQxyU FFYTo1I7_1FocsbuJy8-q_wplQeADQueno-jPWX6v9se88r9Mt31YBOQ_Xl2b8Q4thsaF8pMu7-VjVX9XJGnTfCzvznWuIY4Z7FZvf9S016DozUETQEAfiJ9TgVXn SinpxdP-et1NXD4Bi3U9LlRtPp-AbqK2w8QTBmv6FEo77N_ubLCi2wVp6q_RLp8W1mlKzUAwWXlVj SykLGvdHD3gaZAepprJ3ti5z4EWM0Z2-FHB6utOQCKtW_nBviaW7BsMOevXW8LGdAHyzM_wvyhtABDZW1f mMFWLWdctX2V2Lp2Ddd7aaOI=w1000-h564-no

[merckx]

as with many of those mystical, legendary tubesets, i'm prepared to bet good money no one could tell TSX from SLX, SPX or EL in a blind test. No one.

in my experience, how a bike of that era handles and feels, is more down to the construction of the frame (which lugs, and, most importantly: is it reinforced behind the BB) and the individual execution of that construction (as in: was the guy/gal doing the brazing hung over/bored/lovesick/mad because his team lost on the weekend/etc on that day or not). Same features influence the total weight of the frame more than the tubeset chosen. And that is if if we rule out different forks which have a bigger impact alltogether.

That being said, TSX is mucho forte on the mojo scale, and is thus more desireable than SL/Aelle/Cromor etc.

I couldn't agree more.

[jet sanchez]

My Corsa Extra is made of TSX tubes

http://i.imgur.com/Sb9dHaW.jpg

[donevwil]

I've tried for 20 years to get my buddy to build this back up... No success. It's his grail bike, he's the original owner, raced it for a year, disassembled it and hung it up. Some people.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697912215&d=1450805462

[dddd]

A visual of reinforcement placement.

https://s9.postimg.org/wbzr5ofin/tsx_tubing_layout.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


I believe the rider position photo is misleading here, makes it look like the Century model has a longer top tube In a same-sized frame as the Corsa?

I have the blue one pictured, in a 58cm size the toptube measures only 57cm, so combined with the 1-degree relaxed seattube angle it begs for a stem longer than the AX 100mm (actually only 95mm measured on centers).

I'll drag it upstairs for a photo this morning before heading out for our rain-delayed ride if I get the chance, and will re-check it's frame angles and toptube length, I have 72.5 STand 74.5-degrees HT written down here from when I last measured it, as Merckx considered their steep HT angle "proprietary" and didn't publish it.
This bike does dance very nicely to the tune of spirited riding I have to say!

EDIT: I photo'd and re-measured the angles, seems that mine still has the 74.5 HTA, but I will break from what the published STA says and call it an actual 73 degrees. I measure from both sides of the bike these days, I remain stationary but turn the bike around on it's two contact patches on the floor, which gives data that when averaged, cancels out any TT slope. And I measure from both the front and back of the ST and HT, which rotates the instrument and thus gives numbers that when averaged, cancels out any instrument "hysteresis" (stickiness) from the measurements.
So I end up with two column of eight numbers each, which I average in total to give a final value to each frame angle.
I just wish I had an easy way to measure along today's tapered headtubes, heck today's bikes often have offset and shaped seat tubes as well!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4622/39589014332_93b6f904c9_c.jpg

[old_fat_and_slow]

I've tried for 20 years to get my buddy to build this back up... No success. It's his grail bike, he's the original owner, raced it for a year, disassembled it and hung it up. Some people.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697912215&d=1450805462


Man that's my grail bike too, only I never got one. I love those 7-Eleven models with the full chrome rear triangles.

Tell your friend to sell to me !! :D:D

[donevwil]

Man that's my grail bike too, only I never got one. I love those 7-Eleven models with the full chrome rear triangles.

Tell your friend to sell to me !! :D:D

Everything's for sale for the right price ;). He rides a 58 fwiw.:)

Actually he has spoken to me about selling off most of his Merckx collection, I just need to get off my butt and help him assess things.

[old_fat_and_slow]

Everything's for sale for the right price ;). He rides a 58 fwiw.:)

Actually he has spoken to me about selling off most of his Merckx collection, I just need to get off my butt and help him assess things.

58 checks my box (if it's C-T-C seat tube)

[donevwil]

58 checks my box (if it's C-T-C seat tube)

Yes, 58 C-t-C. Sending you a PM.

http://www.cadre.org/Merckx/catalog/Eddy%20Merckx%201990/CCF25022008_00004.jpg

[lhuerta]

Everything's for sale for the right price ;). He rides a 58 fwiw.:)

Actually he has spoken to me about selling off most of his Merckx collection, I just need to get off my butt and help him assess things.

Hmmm....seeing how my Merckx Molteni is also for sale, perhaps we should create a collective Merckx For Sale thread :)

[donevwil]

Hmmm....seeing how my Merckx Molteni is also for sale, perhaps we should create a collective Merckx For Sale thread :)

We should definitely do that! My buddy also wants to unload his '90's repro Molteni, Motorola MXL and Stars and Stripes Team SC.

[merckx]

Yes, 58 C-t-C. Sending you a PM.

http://www.cadre.org/Merckx/catalog/Eddy%20Merckx%201990/CCF25022008_00004.jpg

This is the template that god used to create a bicycle. Absolutely fabulous machine. The past ten years or so have been ripe for Columbus Max nostalgia. There is good reason too. I had a Merckx MXL about fifteen years ago, and it set a new benchmark for fit, form and function. I never had a machine ride so well from any manufacturer in any material. It's only fault was that it was heavier than sin. Lately I've had an unhealthy desire to find a TSX bike. Definitely a Merckx in century geo. Intuition tells me it would also be swell.

[rccardr]

57-58 in Merckx sizing fits me well, too.
I'd also be interested in the 7-11 frame, foolishly sold mine off years ago.
Bought my Century frame back from OP, though, and built it up last summer:

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Merckx%20Century%20Cobalto/Merckx%20Century%202017%20build/Merckx%20Century%20blue%202017%20right%20side_zpso 5zxuulv.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Merckx%20Century%20Cobalto/Merckx%20Century%202017%20build/Merckx%20Century%20blue%202017%20right%20side_zpso 5zxuulv.jpg.html)

[El Chaba]

(X) Like

I just wanted to install a "like" button for all of the TSX tubed bikes posted here....

[dddd]

57-58 in Merckx sizing fits me well, too.
I'd also be interested in the 7-11 frame, foolishly sold mine off years ago.
Bought my Century frame back from OP, though, and built it up last summer:

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Merckx%20Century%20Cobalto/Merckx%20Century%202017%20build/Merckx%20Century%20blue%202017%20right%20side_zpso 5zxuulv.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Merckx%20Century%20Cobalto/Merckx%20Century%202017%20build/Merckx%20Century%20blue%202017%20right%20side_zpso 5zxuulv.jpg.html)

From looking at your setup, I'd say that you're likely better off with the Century model. You'd probably have chosen a shorter stem if the same-sized Corsa frame were used for your build and not sure that your bike would handle as well that way since both the Century and Corsa have quite-steep headtube angles.

Thanks for the visual presentation on how to set one of these bikes up, blue handlebar tape may be going on mine following a favorable test result with the 1cm-longer 110mm TTT neck that I installed this morning. I'm comfortably at the max height marks and with 2.8" of drop from saddle to bars, as I am relatively long in the leg, so the Century also provides a much better fit scenario for my proportions and 5'9" height.

Fingers crossed that the 110 neck gets along with the 40cm C-C handlebar, should be no problem with the 74.5-degree HT angle though. I always try to re-use the old tape until the fit and handling are fully vetted out on the road, the better that the inevitable grease stains from cockpit fiddling get on the old tape rather than the new stuff.
Looks like the weather will allow my getting in a couple of hours of riding today, we were in the fog until just a couple of hours ago and it has been raining for days.

Luckily I can still get around these foothills just fine with period gearing, at least on the 50-mile rides, but when Dura-Ace 9900 12-speed is introduced (in June?) I will considering putting it on this one and with a much easier low gear.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4703/38926337314_0c87866c14_c.jpg

[rccardr]

From looking at your setup, I'd say that you're likely better off with the Century model. You'd probably have chosen a shorter stem if the same-sized Corsa frame were used for your build and not sure that your bike would handle as well that way since both the Century and Corsa have quite-steep headtube angles.

I think the angles and setback are not as impactful as one might assume. This is my Corsa Extra/Professional, also uses a 100mm stem, and I've put several thousand comfortable miles on it since I built it up in 2011:

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/85%20Red%20Merckx%20Birthday%20Bike/85RedMerckrightsidedoorlarge.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/85%20Red%20Merckx%20Birthday%20Bike/85RedMerckrightsidedoorlarge.jpg.html)

[dddd]

I think the angles and setback are not as impactful as one might assume. This is my Corsa Extra/Professional, also uses a 100mm stem, and I've put several thousand comfortable miles on it since I built it up in 2011:

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/85%20Red%20Merckx%20Birthday%20Bike/85RedMerckrightsidedoorlarge.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/85%20Red%20Merckx%20Birthday%20Bike/85RedMerckrightsidedoorlarge.jpg.html)

Safe to say that you're in a more-forward position on your Corsa, which is as it is intended for the kind of riding that the Corsa was designed for.
The Century models do have a shorter front-center since the toptubes are the same length as the Corsa but the seat tube is laid back a degree.

With your Century, you would seem to be a bit further back, which is more suitable for sustaining pedaling at a lower intensity but over longer distances.
Great to have the choice with both bikes in the stable!

I do notice though that your Corsa seems to have been fitted with a noticeably shorter-reaching handlebar offsetting the frame's greater reach, in lieu of the shorter stem that I suggested it would need. But it is harder to compare the saddle fore/aft on your bikes from these photos since the saddles are different.

I'd say that my Century puts me in an aggressive, more-forward position than most would set the bike up for, especially now with the 110mm stem on it.
But in my case this is largely because of my relatively long leg length, which brings the saddle forward to meet my relatively short torso.

Fitness plays a huge part here, where a fitter cyclist will likely be maintaining a higher average pedaling torque that offsets the rider's mass-balance point above the cranks and will have the rider favoring a more-forward positioning. And the same goes for rides that are shorter and more intense, the opposite of what "Century" implies.

At my age (later 50's) I don't like quite as low of a handlebar, 3" below the saddle is all I'd ever need, so the shorter reach and taller bars of a modern endurance bike like my CX-Zero is what I need for the occasional longer rides (usually with plenty of climbing) that I do around here. My Century doesn't have quite all the gearing I'd want for that at the moment, so mine is set up more as a go-fast bike for most of the ~40 mile training rides that I do.

[Kontact]

Correct. I forget the name switch. My bad.
Separate magazines. Bicycle Guide went out of business.

[Kontact]

But in my case this is largely because of my relatively long leg length, which brings the saddle forward to meet my relatively short torso.

So you set your saddle set back based on the handlebars, and not your legs and torso? That's putting the cart before the horse.

[rccardr]

This is an interesting topic.

I set my saddle setback based on whether I feel like I have to either 1) keep pushing myself back on the bars to maintain correct placement, or 2) keep scooting forward to keep from sitting on the back edge of the saddle. All of my seatpost-to-handlebar distances are within a half inch or so of each other and I spend the majority of my riding time on the flats, so regardless of handlebar drop shape that's pretty consistent, as is saddle-to-bar drop.

As a result, most of my saddles wind up mounted slightly forward of midpoint, but depending on the shape of the saddle it might be a bit farther forward. I no longer ride a Regal as pictured on the red Merckx, as my butt changed after retiring four years ago and riding a lot more miles per year than I used to.

[jamesdak]

My setback is always in relation to the bottom bracket. I set saddle height off the bottom bracket (even considering crank arm length if not my standard) and then measure the setback. I have bad knees and the wrong setback means pain.

[dddd]

So you set your saddle set back based on the handlebars, and not your legs and torso? That's putting the cart before the horse.

It's not so much that my fitting process is prioritizing my handlebar reach over my saddle position, that's another discussion with some merit to both sides when you are setting up a bike that you've already purchased.

What I meant was that my relatively short torso does tend to give me a best fit with the saddle somewhat forward.
This is not only because tall-enough bikes for my height tend to be bigger and thus longer, but also because a rider with proportionally longer legs has to achieve the same balance above the bb as does a rider with average proportions. So a shorter torso does favor a shortening of the saddle's "effective setback" relative to a vertical line coming up from the bb.

Fortunately my arms are of about average length for my height, so that my reach to the bars is still sufficient on most of the larger frames that I ride.

Maybe this build visually illustrates what I'm talking about here, I'm only 5'9" and can ride this bike 100 miles if there isn't too much climbing to suck all the energy out of me:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1604/24188436684_6a42e3393b_c.jpg

[Kontact]

It's not so much that my fitting process is prioritizing my handlebar reach over my saddle position, that's another discussion with some merit to both sides when you are setting up a bike that you've already purchased.

What I meant was that my relatively short torso does tend to give me a best fit with the saddle somewhat forward.
This is not only because tall-enough bikes for my height tend to be bigger and thus longer, but also because a rider with proportionally longer legs has to achieve the same balance above the bb as does a rider with average proportions. So a shorter torso does favor a shortening of the saddle's "effective setback" relative to a vertical line coming up from the bb.

Fortunately my arms are of about average length for my height, so that my reach to the bars is still sufficient on most of the larger frames that I ride.

Maybe this build visually illustrates what I'm talking about here, I'm only 5'9" and can ride this bike 100 miles if there isn't too much climbing to suck all the energy out of me:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1604/24188436684_6a42e3393b_c.jpg
My reaction to this picture is that if your balance above the BB was "correct", your pelvis wouldn't be rotated so far forward that you saddle has to be(predictably) 5° nose down. I would be surprised if you could ride no handed on a seat with that much downslope. I don't know why someone would choose to sit that way instead of moving the saddle back an inch and using a 100mm stem slightly raised instead of that 130 you have.

[dddd]

My reaction to this picture is that if your balance above the BB was "correct", your pelvis wouldn't be rotated so far forward that you saddle has to be(predictably) 5° nose down. I would be surprised if you could ride no handed on a seat with that much downslope. I don't know why someone would choose to sit that way instead of moving the saddle back an inch and using a 100mm stem slightly raised instead of that 130 you have.

It depends on a few things, first of all I can ride this bike no handed comfortably for extended periods with no slipping forward, perhaps the saddle's grip and relatively broad, soft nose area has much to do with that.
I set saddle with the front half being about level, that's where I start and adjust slightly from there during my first couple of rides.

As far as rider position fore/aft, the rider's legs and ability to sustain pedaling power are both helped by being further forward.
Firstly, because the rider can achieve a more-aero position with less bend at the waist (sharper bending limits the power one can sustain).
Secondly, since the rider's legs are usually going to be the weakest link when hanging onto the longest, fastest rides, putting one's aero position on equal priority to being able to being able to comfortably (arms, shoulders, neck, etc.) finish the longest ride that one anticipates doing makes for the best chance at a strong finish and/or best time. Trying to be "fully" comfortable relative to the upper body does take a toll on one's sustained power and aerodynamics, both of which affect one's sustainable speed.
Thirdly, having a more-forward seated position makes for a greatly reduced time and effort in transitioning from seated to standing positions, which allws one to not only transition more freely and frequently, but reduces one's power loss (and thus speed loss) each time it is done.

So, with an eye kept on how well that a bike's fit is allowing me to finish my longest rides, from there I bias my position as far forward as I can.

And one's (perhaps seasonal) fitness plays a big role here, as one's balance point above the bb is strongly affected not only by position but by the level of pedaling torque that one sustains while riding. In this way the length and intensity of the ride also plays a big part in determining one's optimal fore-aft positioning.
Thus early-season base miles are perhaps best done using the endurance bike, so that the race bike's fit position can be retained from the previous year.

There is also a conditioning aspect to this, so as one progresses toward a more forward position some initial arm discomfort may be noticed toward the end of longer rides. An adaptation period thus should be included with each incremental fit change. The picture of the yellow bike below illustrates the possible cause of one torturous finish of mine last year when I did the very hilly/steep "Iowa Hill" loop using a too-big Australian bike with very steep frame angles and limited gearing. The last 26 miles were mostly downhill and fast, and that ride left me sore in the upper arms from the mileage and too-forward position.
We fully train our legs and cardio, why not also our arms, to sustain those gains?

There is also a "Bontrager" school of road bike fitment that I believe prioritizes handlebar position with the rider out of the saddle. The saddle position is then adjusted to make the rider comfortable from there. This somewhat correlates to what I do with the used bikes that I buy, rebuild and ride.

One that perhaps went too far, due to steep angles and long toptube:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7653/16152880223_296449aa8b_c.jpg

And here's a huge one that (with it's slacker angles) actually manages to be far more comfortable on longer rides. So much is relative when looking at a bike's complete geometry picture.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5807/22440358730_5930276313_c.jpg

[Kontact]

dddd,

Bontrager wrote an article about KOPs vs handlebars, but none of the bikes he built ever put a rider that far forward.


You are emulating tri bike seating positions, which are "powerful" and allow you to use different muscles, but the standard saddle position didn't evolve by accident. Standard set back is there for many excellent biomechanical reasons, one of which is that your bike fitment is crushing your perineum.

Everyone needs to set up their fit so it works for them, but you're using a non-standard fit that people have largely avoided for 100 years for good reasons. I have to wonder if your theories about the importance of stem length come partially from the high front wheel loading your position demands.

[dddd]

dddd,

Bontrager wrote an article about KOPs vs handlebars, but none of the bikes he built ever put a rider that far forward.


You are emulating tri bike seating positions, which are "powerful" and allow you to use different muscles, but the standard saddle position didn't evolve by accident. Standard set back is there for many excellent biomechanical reasons, one of which is that your bike fitment is crushing your perineum.

Everyone needs to set up their fit so it works for them, but you're using a non-standard fit that people have largely avoided for 100 years for good reasons. I have to wonder if your theories about the importance of stem length come partially from the high front wheel loading your position demands.


I've noticed that the same stem-length considerations emerge even on the smaller-framed bikes I ride with shorter toptubes, and I also get to compare them repeatedly over a variety of ride lengths, speeds and gradient conditions.

Crushing one's perineum is not something that would go unnoticed when switching between a variety of bike sizes I can assure you.
Certainly most riders are proportioned a bit differently than me, and we all have our own fitness levels and preferred ride lengths and ridng intensity. But the fit variables are all relative and inter-related, you might have to experiment to examine each variable's effect relative to the others.

Riders sitting in a paceline for most of longer rides would likely favor a more rearward position versus those riding through rolling terrain and on shorter, faster rides. But each rider has to find their own balance on any particular geometry they are riding.

You noted a slightly nose-down saddle on one of the bikes I showed, and surely that angle was found suitable during a test ride where pressure on the nose of that particular saddle on that bike was noted. I've been riding road bikes nearly continuously since 1971 and am not fool enough to suffer along with "crushing" loads on my perineum, lol.
Most of my bikes are inexpensive used-bike purchases that involve some compromise, but can be fitted for comfortable riding in the company of spirited training rides of decent length. My forward position evolved from putting lots of bikes through their paces with frequent comparisons among them during typical average 40-50-mile rides through our foothills terrain.

A couple of "opposite" examples would be my relatively small 55cm Orbea and one of the CX bikes I have raced, again both were purchased on the cheap and made to work to my liking:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7587/26954353083_8c0570a3f1_c.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7396/9532819002_dc47abdfe2_c.jpg

[Kontact]

A couple of "opposite" examples...
Opposite of what?

[dddd]

Opposite of what?

Good question, I might have meant opposite of each other, but I really meant they are opposite of the longer-toptube and longer-reaching bikes I've shown.

The rather small Orbea seemed to want the 12cm stem (as shown) to better keep up on the fastest regional training rides, but the out-of-saddle handling suffered and I went back to 11cm.
I have to admit that there seemed to be very minimal loss of speed potential with the shorter 11cm stem, so it'll stay on and maybe I'll keep the bike depending on how much that my fitness declines with age, and with the shorter stem (and shorter forward reach) thus being in harmony with my anticipated reduction of average sustained pedaling torque.

The CX bike of course needs a much shorter reach to the bars for safe off-roading and for climbing traction, I could do road rides on it as is but that is a very upright position.

[rallizes]

Man that's my grail bike too, only I never got one. I love those 7-Eleven models with the full chrome rear triangles.

Tell your friend to sell to me !! :D:D

will this fit you :)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/eddy-merckx-road-bike-Team-7-Eleven/112756669337?hash=item1a40d23b99:g:ljAAAOSwjIVaXMM ~

[xander1027]

Pinarello made the Gavia made TSX tubing, its also noted that this was one of the first frames from Pinarello with a seat and head tube with different angles.

[KJMUNC]

Whoa what size is this? Have always wanted a Lemond Coors frame....

I'm not much of a photographer but... She's got Campy 8-Speed Record/Chorus mix.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pIpU8PHzHibi1A6-XD-21KZJAyT-XKzXaAC9hjqmpbh5Us1AnpFdRxQhp6FMKYqhtVrNrT3SMAXBTp KTNuzMkSjX1raTI3g0q0Svjq2JQf95B_sSNTBnK301PVFLtbFK CSvDktfYV-3QsX1EecINDbio6C5mQmx24cWYDL0a3dvb1DN0Wh-4cslkiZscIptGCnsIu3HMNdWflRdc06_HKhDmPZmJwbEwkvW6y iotFIUL_lB4bReQ2NI9FFMFdgfgwdVwqTueEqJove7Kg0ztLKt GYUED2mYC17o3KyqHnGmOtQhZB6-IunzFJ8lfjsCkCmQspMk9VQZfGd_pgMxsZyJAcGZl5YfRFCYPT FFTIZhfbxL8rrJliDsL4mFziRb961a38rvqj-M2h1VKU1z3av4Y7rscld2UlmN_YNOyZWAiJfOhLSKE3YEBqlr8 yXox91DQMhdby7T2ZJGrK7GDq8d_3VenM25AEgLiQ6cUZtp8Nu aHnFGvuHE0LGXL6MFQTJyQBYbPJjACPAzMjRfU_FAKiRVHk4m2 PdbESi-SGoI-_KwBjqlA7izvE0tEuDTEW5Lmdcie6NMxJQxU38VR3xmUG_zSDB aIxwGdRbQ=w782-h968-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PcIuFyd9Xl0c2FqaBs0CdCWzrx42p_g5U_iOWo_z8N5qug34tO Spf3A-D8JNp7aXkKx_QpLCGdcd0Xr4Vc_aCZXTTW1UNFPm0qp9aCqTvI qEj9umeSBMkkTY_DciD-m4zEN05LUYlRXYB6TT15knsaf4kSTc-Ymxa8Tr2BJ8KN1Cs3zwCUTUDL0GJWXTtfzNU76IiZQGVmnieDl Rzowfy42X7oVW3c7GFJEngwF8bp_ZpweaMUM4npkNvJlhKwAyq PzfjpM8p8R1Ty1QAGjLsMvhgJWz9h6oWHNOWGUmn3ylPZVQxyU FFYTo1I7_1FocsbuJy8-q_wplQeADQueno-jPWX6v9se88r9Mt31YBOQ_Xl2b8Q4thsaF8pMu7-VjVX9XJGnTfCzvznWuIY4Z7FZvf9S016DozUETQEAfiJ9TgVXn SinpxdP-et1NXD4Bi3U9LlRtPp-AbqK2w8QTBmv6FEo77N_ubLCi2wVp6q_RLp8W1mlKzUAwWXlVj SykLGvdHD3gaZAepprJ3ti5z4EWM0Z2-FHB6utOQCKtW_nBviaW7BsMOevXW8LGdAHyzM_wvyhtABDZW1f mMFWLWdctX2V2Lp2Ddd7aaOI=w1000-h564-no

[ahsere]

1698016021

1698016022

1698016023

Revisiting an old thread. I recently got this 55 cm Slim Chance with the Harlequin paint job and a motley crew of parts (9 speed Dura-Ace derailleurs and crankset, shot Ultegra shifters, Chorus brakes, front Chorus/CXP 33 wheel, back Gemini Forté whatever, Shimano pedals) and as seen, it weighs 19.6 pounds. I plan to dress it with 10 speed Ultegra and Dura-Ace on Kinlin rims wheelset, and I expect it to drop at least a pound, pound and a half. I have only ridden it around the block a couple of times since I cannot shift, but it feels very good under my pandemic weight... The 1991 Bicycle Guide article linked in the Chris Chance website discusses the TSX tubing at length and concludes that the Tig welded Slim Chance is one of the lightest bikes tested by the magazine, which would be consistent with the weight of my Harlequin beauty.

[CSKeller]

Here is my contribution to this resurrected thread.

I absolutely love my TSX Gängl!!!

I'm a clydesdale and this bike is perfect with a smooth, precise ride. It is plenty stiff for hard efforts (not quite as snappy as my carbon rides) yet is comfortable on long days with nice road feel.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201230/ece0b2ea1979ab2e7bbd463ac480a8f5.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[gngroup]

I recently got this early 90’s Bianchi TSX:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201230/b8d055d94176b873e7c597305fe1435b.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

TSX tubing at length and concludes that the Tig welded Slim Chance

I always thought tig welding TSX(or any of the similar Columbus tubesets, SL, SLX, even EL and ELOS), was a not good idea since the stuff really wasn't 'made' for tig welding whereas some of True Temper and Reynolds tubesets, like 'Platinum and 753/853, were. (?)

Not a frame builder.

[ahsere]

Most of the bikes in this thread are lugged, so most builders probably had the same idea about the best uses of TSX tubing. In fact, the article says as much:

"Welded joints are nothing new for Fat City, but a tube set as lavish as the Slim's TSX is. Moreover, welded TSX tubing may well have qualified as an oxymoron."

So, at least at the time, this was a slightly eccentric decision Chris Chance made. TIG welding was also relatively new in the bike industry at that point according to the article, so perhaps he could not find high-end tube sets that were produced specifically for TIG welding. Either way, after taking another short ride on the bike I am very happy with the way it rides even with the super thin tires and I am looking forward to rebuilding it to do some real riding on it.

[Razzle]

Love my Pinarello TSX Gavia

[Razzle]

I have a Pinarello Gavia TSX, rides great

[Gummee]

I have a Pinarello Gavia TSX, rides great

I'll take pics of mine if you take pics of yours

M