Ti Frame too stiff?

[mikmcconnell]

Hi,

I've got a Indy Fab Ti Crown Jewel Disc. Had it for five years but haven't been doing much riding (babies).

I'm now getting back on it and am thinking that it might be too stiff. It just kills me on longer rides - I can feel absolutely everything on the road - to the point I think I can feel a wheel pulsing that's a fraction of a millimetre out of true.

It was built with oversized tubes (down tube, head tube and BB), and I'm only a little guy (53.7cm TT - I'm 168cm and about 65kg). It's a stunning bike, but I think might not be right for my purposes.

I'm thinking I might have a great crit bike for racing on perfect tarmac (which we don't have here in NZ) but a not so great other purposes bike.

Thoughts?

[MattTuck]

If you haven't been riding a lot lately, I think that is the more likely culprit. Your body and mind adapt to the physical and mental demands of riding. Coming back to it takes some time.

[Bruce K]

What you are feeling is probably more a function of the oversized than the Ti.

My Ti bikes have been some of the most comfortable I’ve owned

BK

[Kontact]

The fork stiffness required for disk brakes is likely one of the main culprits.

You can make a fork stiff enough to not break from hub braking, or you can make it absorb shock well. You can't really do both.

[Britishbane]

It took this long for someone to ask about tire size and pressure?

[mikmcconnell]

On tyre pressure:

These wheels: https://www.wheelworks.co.nz/shop-2/road-wheels/maker-cx/

These tyres: 25mm GP 4000s, 25mm

These pressures: 65 front 70 rear

[mikmcconnell]

The fork stiffness required for disk brakes is likely one of the main culprits.

You can make a fork stiff enough to not break from hub braking, or you can make it absorb shock well. You can't really do both.

Yeah, it's the first generation ENVE road disc fork. Post mount, QR.

Would changing that have any effect you think?

[mikmcconnell]

What you are feeling is probably more a function of the oversized than the Ti.

My Ti bikes have been some of the most comfortable I’ve owned

BK

Yeah - that's why I mentioned the oversized part, that's part of my suspicion. My other bikes are a 1998 C40, regular sized tubes. Butter.

A Ritchey Swisscross Disc - regular steel tubes - most awesome bike ever.

[mikmcconnell]

If you haven't been riding a lot lately, I think that is the more likely culprit. Your body and mind adapt to the physical and mental demands of riding. Coming back to it takes some time.

Yeah, I definitely think that's part of it. But I've always thought it was mad stiff, even when I was race fit. It's worse than it was and yes, I put that down to age and stage (kids!)

I'm on the bike five days a week commuting, but usually on my steel CX bike (still disc, but not as full on - it's a Ritchey and is uber comfortable).

[mikmcconnell]

Oh - the other thing I didn't mention. I've recently switched from alloy bars (FSA compact bars which I'd been riding for the past decade) to FSA SL-Ks (carbon with a kevlar internal wrap I'm told).

Any idea whether that would have an effect?

[Peter P.]

You have to define what you mean by "oversize". Titanium tubes have to be larger than typical steel frame tubes to have equivalent stiffness. So unless you ordered the frame with "oversized for titanium tubes on a frame of my size" I'm inclined to think I.F. was smart enough to build the frame to be commensurate with your size and weight.

I'm also of the opinion that a bicycle frame is comprised of a triangle and a quadrilateral, neither of which have any vertical compliance to contribute to comfort. Look for compliance elsewhere.

Sounds like we're getting it narrowed down to the disc brake specific fork and your memory of the bike's ride vs. your time away from the bike.

Since you've already discussed tire pressure, I'd also suggest you try larger tires and perhaps a rim with a smaller cross-section i.e., if it's a taller, aero-shaped rim, perhaps try a box section aluminum rim.

FYI: I'm your height and only 2kg lighter, so I have some understanding of what you might experience in a frame your size.

[eddief]

I owned a Serotta Fierte IT. I know it was a combo of ti and carbon but I swore that bike rode (for me) as if it was plumbing pipes. Beat me up bad. Then I got my Carver ti with Enve fork and I never looked back. Also Conti 4000 ii 28mm tires with 85 back and 75 front. Love that bike.

So bottom line different bikes do feel different and lots of factors including the big one between your ears.

[mikmcconnell]

You have to define what you mean by "oversize". Titanium tubes have to be larger than typical steel frame tubes to have equivalent stiffness. So unless you ordered the frame with "oversized for titanium tubes on a frame of my size" I'm inclined to think I.F. was smart enough to build the frame to be commensurate with your size and weight.

I'm also of the opinion that a bicycle frame is comprised of a triangle and a quadrilateral, neither of which have any vertical compliance to contribute to comfort. Look for compliance elsewhere.

Sounds like we're getting it narrowed down to the disc brake specific fork and your memory of the bike's ride vs. your time away from the bike.

Since you've already discussed tire pressure, I'd also suggest you try larger tires and perhaps a rim with a smaller cross-section i.e., if it's a taller, aero-shaped rim, perhaps try a box section aluminum rim.

No, I think the oversized tubes were a bit of a compromise because of the size of the headtube needed for a 1.25 fork for the disc. Most of the discussion with the design guy at the time was about aesthetics etc, I really don't think the impact of it on stiffness for my frame size was really thought through (I also specc'd a race bike - which is definitely what I've got).

Yeah, I had box section rims on it - I think I'll switch them back and see how they ride.

[mikmcconnell]

I owned a Serotta Fierte IT. I know it was a combo of ti and carbon but I swore that bike rode (foe me) as if it was plumbing pipes. Beat me up bad. Then I got my Carver ti with Enve fork and I never looked back. Also Conti 4000 ii 28mm tires with 85 back and 75 front. Love that bike.

So bottom line different bikes do feel different and lots of factors including the big one between your ears.

Chur. Yeah, none of this is all that scientific right? The bike is the bike (to quote Sachs).

I'm just trying to figure out which variables are changeable cheaply enough before I get to whether or not the frameset should go. I'd rather hold on to it if I can, but I'd rather not put more money into it if it's not going to help given what a Supersix Evo Disc now costs.

Sounds like 28mm is the first shot. Then wheels back to the alloys.

Fork is a bit of a major drama because the front hub I've got on the alloy rims can't be converted to QR.

[NYCfixie]

Try lower tire pressures first and ride it some more. If it still feels too stiff, than it is no matter what anybody else tells you.

I ordered a new Seven mid-reach brake road bike about 18 months ago and something got lost in translation between the store and Seven so the seat stays were too big. I tried almost everything to make it feel less stiff: changed from Shimano C35 to C24 wheels, wider tires, lower pressure, more comfortable seat, and even more padded shorts but it was too stiff and my back was killing me.

Seven took the bike back, stripped it, welded in thinner stays (and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show, built it again, and gave it back. Others may claim chainstays should not make a difference but that is the only other thing that was changed and to me it did make a huge change and the bike was amazing after that.

Try everything you can and then make a decision.

Life is to short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

[mikmcconnell]

Try lower tire pressures first and ride it some more. If it still feels too stiff, than it is no matter what anybody else tells you.

I ordered a new Seven mid-reach brake road bike about 18 months ago and something got lost in translation between the store and Seven so the seat stays were too big. I tried almost everything to make it feel less stiff: changed from Shimano C35 to C24 wheels, wider tires, lower pressure, more comfortable seat, and even more padded shorts but it was too stiff and my back was killing me.

Seven took the bike back, stripped it, welded in thinner stays (and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show, built it again, and gave it back. Others may claim chainstays should not make a difference but that is the only other thing that was changed and to me it did make a huge change and the bike was amazing after that.

Try everything you can and then make a decision.

Life is to short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

Thanks man. That's a great and thoughtful response.

[ultraman6970]

Op do you have a picture of the bike in question?

[NYCfixie]

Thanks man. That's a great and thoughtful response.

And, like you I ride small frames (53.5 ETT) so things like stiffness can be amplified. Even custom butted 16mm stays will give a harsher ride on a 53.5 bike then say a 58.5 bike.

I think one of the worst things you can do for small bikes is the tapered headtube/headset. Smaller frames do not need more stiffness in the front or back. By their nature (geometry, physics, etc.) they are stiffer than a larger frame built with the same tube thicknesses. Thankfully some production bikes are using tapered headtubes in 1.25 on their smaller frames and 1.5 on their larger frames.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss offline.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi,

I've got a Indy Fab Ti Crown Jewel Disc. Had it for five years but haven't been doing much riding (babies).

I'm now getting back on it and am thinking that it might be too stiff. It just kills me on longer rides - I can feel absolutely everything on the road - to the point I think I can feel a wheel pulsing that's a fraction of a millimetre out of true.

It was built with oversized tubes (down tube, head tube and BB), and I'm only a little guy (53.7cm TT - I'm 168cm and about 65kg). It's a stunning bike, but I think might not be right for my purposes.

I'm thinking I might have a great crit bike for racing on perfect tarmac (which we don't have here in NZ) but a not so great other purposes bike.

Thoughts?

Haven’t read all the responses but bigger tires and less psi in ’em.

[mikmcconnell]

Op do you have a picture of the bike in question?

Here is the frameset: http://www.ifrider.com/titanium-crown-jewel-special/

[Kontact]

Of the things discussed so far:

1. Carbon bars. Yes, those might be stiffer than the alloy bars they replaced. Carbon bars aren't built for flex, they are built to resist damage. Probably not a big deal, though.

2. Fork. I doubt you'll find a soft riding disc fork, especially one with the tapered head tube.

3. Frame. I disagree with Peter's post - despite the general shape of diamond bike frames, many do ride softer than others.

4. Wheels. Sure, some ride softer, but softer riding wheels don't necessarily last as long as reasonably stiff wheels. Maybe not such a great place to put a ton of flex into.

5. Tires. This is kind of key, because the only time we really need to worry about the stiffness of forks, frames or bars is when we are using low volume tires. I won't say that the line is at 28c or 32c, but once the tire volume gets large enough it simply doesn't matter what the rest of the bike is doing. I guarantee that a Homer Hilson would also beat most of us up with 23c tires. 23 and 25c tires are for rim brake racing bikes with forks and stays designed to absorb vibration and bumps, not handle braking stresses.


For the kind of bike the OP has, I don't see any reason not to just put some larger volume tires on it and solve all the issues in one go. It isn't a racing bike and should be equipped in a way that matches its design.

[Kontact]

Here is the frameset: http://www.ifrider.com/titanium-crown-jewel-special/

Yup, that's "oversize" for Ti, especially in a small size. Once tubes get large enough it doesn't matter what the material is.

[mikmcconnell]

And, like you I ride small frames (53.5 ETT) so things like stiffness can be amplified. Even custom butted 16mm stays will give a harsher ride on a 53.5 bike then say a 58.5 bike.

I think one of the worst things you can do for small bikes is the tapered headtube/headset. Smaller frames do not need more stiffness in the front or back. By their nature (geometry, physics, etc.) they are stiffer than a larger frame built with the same tube thicknesses. Thankfully some production bikes are using tapered headtubes in 1.25 on their smaller frames and 1.5 on their larger frames.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss offline.

Yeah, will message.

I can't remember the taper on the fork. I think it's 1.25 to 1.125 - I'm pretty sure it's not 1.5 (I don't think they did them back in 2012 when it was built)

I've just gone back and looked at the build sheet and it's specified "44mm head tube, oversized tubing all around."

Would be an epic crit bike.

I'll see what I can do to get it to settle down and I've just tee'd up a test ride on a 'Dale from the LBS just in case.

[Bob Ross]

These tyres: 25mm GP 4000s, 25mm

These pressures: 65 front 70 rear

Holy crap, I got nothing. 25c tires at 70psi or lower would feel like wading in jello to me.

[mikmcconnell]

Yup, that's "oversize" for Ti, especially in a small size. Once tubes get large enough it doesn't matter what the material is.

Yeah, this is all rather obvious in retrospect.

[mikmcconnell]

Holy crap, I got nothing. 25c tires at 70psi or lower would feel like wading in jello to me.

You need some wheelworks wheels ;-)

Those rims and those tyres at those pressures on that bike are way harder than 110 psi on Kinlins on my C40

[mikmcconnell]

Of the things discussed so far:

1. Carbon bars. Yes, those might be stiffer than the alloy bars they replaced. Carbon bars aren't built for flex, they are built to resist damage. Probably not a big deal, though.

2. Fork. I doubt you'll find a soft riding disc fork, especially one with the tapered head tube.

3. Frame. I disagree with Peter's post - despite the general shape of diamond bike frames, many do ride softer than others.

4. Wheels. Sure, some ride softer, but softer riding wheels don't necessarily last as long as reasonably stiff wheels. Maybe not such a great place to put a ton of flex into.

5. Tires. This is kind of key, because the only time we really need to worry about the stiffness of forks, frames or bars is when we are using low volume tires. I won't say that the line is at 28c or 32c, but once the tire volume gets large enough it simply doesn't matter what the rest of the bike is doing. I guarantee that a Homer Hilson would also beat most of us up with 23c tires. 23 and 25c tires are for rim brake racing bikes with forks and stays designed to absorb vibration and bumps, not handle braking stresses.


For the kind of bike the OP has, I don't see any reason not to just put some larger volume tires on it and solve all the issues in one go. It isn't a racing bike and should be equipped in a way that matches its design.

LBS is going to call when the 28s are in and I'll throw them on and see how they go. Clearance will be my next issue.

No one was thinking of putting 28s on bikes back in 2012. It's got the ENVE 1.0 Road Disc Fork which I'm told will take 28s (but only just - ENVE only say it'll take 25s apparently).

Being told that and just doing a cursory visual inspection, I'm more concerned about the chainstay clearance.

We'll see. If they don't fit on the IF they'll be good on the Ritchey.

[John H.]

I also had an IF ti that I thought was too stiff. It was a hardtail mtb.

[mikmcconnell]

I also had an IF ti that I thought was too stiff. It was a hardtail mtb.

Hmmm, that's telling. When was it built?

[Kontact]

I also had an IF ti that I thought was too stiff. It was a hardtail mtb.

What does a too-stiff bike with 2" tires feel like?

[mikmcconnell]

What does a too-stiff bike with 2" tires feel like?Not good!

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[John H.]

Like a brick- no resilience or compliance.
Yes- 2.1 tires and a suspension fork. Still too stiff.


What does a too-stiff bike with 2" tires feel like?

[yashcha]

We pretty much ride the same size 54cm TT(173cm/60KGs).

I recently got a straight gauge frameset built by Max at 333FAB. I asked for a really stiff frame because I ride like a small Bartoli-gorilla when climbing a hill and I hate noodle-y frames. The chainstays are THICK, thick to the point where a couple of the Seven cycles guys I was riding with noticed right away how thick they were. The frameset is MUCH stiffer, and noticeably not as shock absorbing as my Seven Axiom SL, but not as transmitting as my Alu Zank. I have always loved the way Alu rides, so this is exactly the kind of ride I was hoping from but in Ti.

It was a great learning experience for me to see how a builder can control how a bike feels by carefully controlling the sizing/manipulation of the tubing. From this very limited experience, I think oversized chainstays can make a significant difference in feel.

[mikmcconnell]

We pretty much ride the same size 54cm TT(173cm/60KGs).

I recently got a straight gauge frameset built by Max at 333FAB. I asked for a really stiff frame because I ride like a small Bartoli-gorilla when climbing a hill and I hate noodle-y frames. The chainstays are THICK, thick to the point where a couple of the Seven cycles guys I was riding with noticed right away how thick they were. The frameset is MUCH stiffer, and noticeably not as shock absorbing as my Seven Axiom SL, but not as transmitting as my Alu Zank. I have always loved the way Alu rides, so this is exactly the kind of ride I was hoping from but in Ti.

It was a great learning experience for me to see how a builder can control how a bike feels by carefully controlling the sizing/manipulation of the tubing. From this very limited experience, I think oversized chainstays can make a significant difference in feel.

That's a good point you make on climbing. This IF climbs like nothing else. It's awesome.

And yes, those are some serious chainstays. I've got oversized stays on mine and they're not that big, those things are huge.

[eddief]

1. That Seven would provide that level of customer service.
2. That you got to experience the difference between two frames in rapid succession.

Try lower tire pressures first and ride it some more. If it still feels too stiff, than it is no matter what anybody else tells you.

I ordered a new Seven mid-reach brake road bike about 18 months ago and something got lost in translation between the store and Seven so the seat stays were too big. I tried almost everything to make it feel less stiff: changed from Shimano C35 to C24 wheels, wider tires, lower pressure, more comfortable seat, and even more padded shorts but it was too stiff and my back was killing me.

Seven took the bike back, stripped it, welded in thinner stays (and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show, built it again, and gave it back. Others may claim chainstays should not make a difference but that is the only other thing that was changed and to me it did make a huge change and the bike was amazing after that.

Try everything you can and then make a decision.

Life is to short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

[yashcha]

That's a good point you make on climbing. This IF climbs like nothing else. It's awesome.

And yes, those are some serious chainstays. I've got oversized stays on mine and they're not that big, those things are huge.

I have owned a Litespeed Tuscany, Classic, Moots Vamoots, Seven Axiom Sl, and this is a completely different beast.

I also noticed that when I went from Vittoria Rubinos 25 to Michelin Pro endurance 25's that it transformed the ride from slightly dull, to lively and comfortable. I never liked the Conti Gran prixs and always felt that they rode a bit stiff. I am curious how the bike would ride with really soft widish tires and latex tubes.

[mikmcconnell]

1. That Seven would provide that level of customer service.
2. That you got to experience the difference between two frames in rapid succession.

Wonder if they charged as well

[mikmcconnell]

I have owned a Litespeed Tuscany, Classic, Moots Vamoots, Seven Axiom Sl, and this is a completely different beast.

I also noticed that when I went from Vittoria Rubinos 25 to Michelin Pro endurance 25's that it transformed the ride from slightly dull, to lively and comfortable. I never liked the Conti Gran prixs and always felt that they rode a bit stiff. I am curious how the bike would ride with really soft widish tires and latex tubes.

The reviews say great things about the GPs in 28s and I've had terrible experience with the Michelin's predecessors so I stay away from that brand.

Gonna be a line call on tyre clearance methinks.

If I lived in the States this would be a lot easier, I just saw the prices on the 333FAB site. They'd be a lot more than that by the time they reached New Zealand

[cadence90]

Seven took the bike back, stripped it, welded in thinner stays (and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show, built it again, and gave it back.

I'm confused: how would a new seat tube have no welds showing?
If the rear triangle was all new, OK, all new welds back there...but the new triangle was then re-welded to the old tt/dt, correct?
.
.

[mikmcconnell]

I'm confused: how would a new seat tube have no welds showing?
If the rear triangle was all new, OK, all new welds back there...but the new triangle was then re-welded to the old tt/dt, correct?
.
.

I'm confused too. I thought I had the answer but I've confused myself further. Wouldn't taking the seattube out increase the number of welds (because now you have to weld the seat tube to the top of the BB and the seat tube to the top tube).

[cadence90]

I'm confused too. I thought I had the answer but I've confused myself further. Wouldn't taking the seattube out increase the number of welds (because now you have to weld the seat tube to the top of the BB and the seat tube to the top tube).

Yes, at least given the way NYCfixie wrote it ("...and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show..."), I do not understand what he/she intended. Clearly, old or new, welds on ti frames will be and are visible.

:confused:
.
.

[mikmcconnell]

Yes, at least given the way NYCfixie wrote it ("...and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show..."), I do not understand what he/she intended. Clearly, old or new, welds on ti frames will be and are visible.

:confused:
.
.These guys do amazing work of course. The welds on my bike are incredible.

I'm an office guy by day and do quite a bit of building work on weekends and evenings. What I find difficult in wood (which is extremely forgiving all things considered) they can do in steel and Ti


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[NYCfixie]

1 - I would be hard pressed to purchase anything from anyone other than Seven in the future. I am not sure if I would use the same shop again though. There were so many smaller details that got messed up with the order that could be directly connected to the shop (wrong bars, wrong stem, build delays, rudeness, etc.) but Seven was the one that came through on the seatstay issue. It got to a point where I just dealt with Seven directly.

2 - As I was told by Seven, when they needed to "replace" and weld "smaller" seatstays in the same location as "larger" seatstays you would have seen "marks" from the previous welds (think outside diameter of the tubes and where the welds would have been). So, by also replacing the seattube which stayed the same diameter, the new welds covered the old weld marks/locations at the toptube and downtube junctions but at at the seatstay junctions it was new material.


Again, I tried all the things Seven and the shop requested and when it did not make a difference Seven made it right. That is customer service and why everyone should consider getting a custom Ti Seven (but choose the shop wisely).


1. That Seven would provide that level of customer service.
2. That you got to experience the difference between two frames in rapid succession.

Wonder if they charged as well

I'm confused too. I thought I had the answer but I've confused myself further. Wouldn't taking the seattube out increase the number of welds (because now you have to weld the seat tube to the top of the BB and the seat tube to the top tube).

Yes, at least given the way NYCfixie wrote it ("...and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show..."), I do not understand what he/she intended. Clearly, old or new, welds on ti frames will be and are visible.

:confused:
.
.

[Kontact]

Like a brick- no resilience or compliance.
Yes- 2.1 tires and a suspension fork. Still too stiff.

Too stiff where? What source of shock or force did you need isolation from on a bike with 30 psi tires between it and the ground?

[mikmcconnell]

1 - I would be hard pressed to purchase anything from anyone other than Seven in the future. I am not sure if I would use the same shop again though. There were so many smaller details that got messed up with the order that could be directly connected to the shop (wrong bars, wrong stem, build delays, rudeness, etc.) but Seven was the one that came through on the seatstay issue. It got to a point where I just dealt with Seven directly.

2 - As I was told by Seven, when they needed to "replace" and weld "smaller" seatstays in the same location as "larger" seatstays you would have seen "marks" from the previous welds (think outside diameter of the tubes and where the welds would have been). So, by also replacing the seattube which stayed the same diameter, the new welds covered the old weld marks/locations at the toptube and downtube junctions but at at the seatstay junctions it was new material.


Again, I tried all the things Seven and the shop requested and when it did not make a difference Seven made it right. That is customer service and why everyone should consider getting a custom Ti Seven (but choose the shop wisely).

Ahhh, that makes more sense.

I went direct with IF and it was a bit of a nightmare TBH, but they got there in the end. I've been listening to a podcast with the CEO today and it seems that their strategy is to go through dealers so I'm now not that surprised that the direct experience wasn't the best. (they weren't rude or anything, it just took way way longer than they said it would and then there were glitches with payment etc).

But that pales in comparison to the experience that a friend had with Speedvagen. Christ on a bike they sounded awful

[cadence90]

2 - As I was told by Seven, when they needed to "replace" and weld "smaller" seatstays in the same location as "larger" seatstays you would have seen "marks" from the previous welds (think outside diameter of the tubes and where the welds would have been). So, by also replacing the seattube which stayed the same diameter, the new welds covered the old weld marks/locations at the toptube and downtube junctions but at the seatstay junctions it was new material.

Oh, OK...that makes sense now. Thanks much for the clarification.
.
.

[Clean39T]

Ahhh, that makes more sense.



I went direct with IF and it was a bit of a nightmare TBH, but they got there in the end. I've been listening to a podcast with the CEO today and it seems that their strategy is to go through dealers so I'm now not that surprised that the direct experience wasn't the best. (they weren't rude or anything, it just took way way longer than they said it would and then there were glitches with payment etc).



But that pales in comparison to the experience that a friend had with Speedvagen. Christ on a bike they sounded awful


What’s the podcast?

[mikmcconnell]

What’s the podcast?

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/01/02/build-cycle-podcast-035-indy-fab-owner-polartec-ceo-gary-smith-talks-leadership/

[93KgBike]

Compact carbon frames are often reliant on the long seat posts for compliance. Could sourcing a thinner seat tube create better road feel?

[mikmcconnell]

Fwiw - here it is today all built up. Just about to ride home https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180108/54592789e2abb602d132a7d1fba1a907.jpg

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[mikmcconnell]

Compact carbon frames are often reliant on the long seat posts for compliance. Could sourcing a thinner seat tube create better road feel?Prohibitively expensive to swap tubes out. Problem is primarily a front end one too

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[Kontact]

Prohibitively expensive to swap tubes out. Problem is primarily a front end one too

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Perhaps he meant a thinner seat post with a shim.

But that isn't going to help your hands.

[mikmcconnell]

Perhaps he meant a thinner seat post with a shim.

But that isn't going to help your hands.Ahh, right



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[Kontact]

As that Enve fork is designed to go up to a 32c tire, I assume you have a reasonable way to make your bike comfortable, or even be able to make it gravel-able, without replacing major components.

Fat tires are considerably faster than vibration fatigue.

[mikmcconnell]

As that Enve fork is designed to go up to a 32c tire, I assume you have a reasonable way to make your bike comfortable, or even be able to make it gravel-able, without replacing major components.

Fat tires are considerably faster than vibration fatigue.The new one is, that's the old one (note post mount and QR)

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[Kontact]

The new one is, that's the old one (note post mount and QR)

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The one in the picture looks like the last 2.0 disc which I thought also took a 32c tire.

What is your fork and frame tire limit?

[mikmcconnell]

The one in the picture looks like the last 2.0 disc which I thought also took a 32c tire.

What is your fork and frame tire limit?Don't know. Custom frame and I can't find enough detail on the fork - it's a 2012. I'm going to get the vernier calipers out, doesn't really matter though cos the 28s will fit my CX bike for commuting

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[dddd]

The design approach when using a disc brake requires a combination of factors for the performance and comfort to be restored after weight and fork stiffness have been added.

For these bikes to be competitive means exploiting the ability to have nice, wide and light carbon rims that couldn't be used with caliper brakes without braking and weight compromises.

So these lighter/wider rims not only compensate for some of the weight added, but also allow much greater tire volumes that allow large reductions in tire pressure and modest reductions in tire casing tension while still providing pinch-flat resistance and low rolling resistance.

Short of the plush tires, thicker bar tape and saddle padding can do much for cushioning.
Expecting wheel structures to absorb shock is folly, since even 1mm of give would put the spokes well into zero-tension territory and standard wheels already flex nearly as much as the spoke tensioning can tolerate.
And wider rims and tires actually produce higher tire casing tension (firmer casing surface!) unless large pressure reductions accompany any such size increases.

An added benefit of the disc approach with wider rims and tires is the lower contact pressure of the tread on the road, which helps reduce tread wear, but wider tires do mop up a wider swath of the road so more thorns are likely to find the tires.

I have experienced the effects of fork twist on steering while using disc brakes off road, which proved to me that relatively supple fork blades really have no place on any fork with a disc caliper. Even a rim-braked bike with different left and right brake pads can exhibit noticeable fork twisting with it's annoying effect on steering, but putting a caliper at the lower end of one fork leg is orders of magnitude worse than that.

Perhaps when the OP changed handlebars the tape was more tightly or thinly wrapped?

[mikmcconnell]

The design approach when using a disc brake requires a combination of factors for the performance and comfort to be restored after weight and fork stiffness have been added.

For these bikes to be competitive means exploiting the ability to have nice, wide and light carbon rims that couldn't be used with caliper brakes without braking and weight compromises.

So these lighter/wider rims not only compensate for some of the weight added, but also allow much greater tire volumes that allow large reductions in tire pressure and modest reductions in tire casing tension while still providing pinch-flat resistance and low rolling resistance.

Short of the plush tires, thicker bar tape and saddle padding can do much for cushioning.
Expecting wheel structures to absorb shock is folly, since even 1mm of give would put the spokes well into zero-tension territory and standard wheels already flex nearly as much as the spoke tensioning can tolerate.
And wider rims and tires actually produce higher tire casing tension (firmer casing surface!) unless large pressure reductions accompany any such size increases.

An added benefit of the disc approach with wider rims and tires is the lower contact pressure of the tread on the road, which helps reduce tread wear, but wider tires do mop up a wider swath of the road so more thorns are likely to find the tires.

I have experienced the effects of fork twist on steering while using disc brakes off road, which proved to me that relatively supple fork blades really have no place on any fork with a disc caliper. Even a rim-braked bike with different left and right brake pads can exhibit noticeable fork twisting with it's annoying effect on steering, but putting a caliper at the lower end of one fork leg is orders of magnitude worse than that.

Perhaps when the OP changed handlebars the tape was more tightly or thinly wrapped?There is that. My new mechanic is awesome but **** he wraps bartape tight

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[dddd]

Too stiff where? What source of shock or force did you need isolation from on a bike with 30 psi tires between it and the ground?

I can't answer for John H., but air pressure is just one variable in terms of vertical compliance of the tire.

A wider tire's larger cross-sectional radius may bridge surface defects such that they don't transmit as much shock, and it's permissible lower pressure (without risk of pinch-flat) equates to a wider contact patch. Good so far, but a 2x wider tire has 2x the tension in the casing at the same pressure, and casing tension resists local deflection as imposed by bits of gravel or a rough asphalt surface.

And where surface defects are more undulating than square-edged, a wider tire resists vertical deflection more than a narrower tire. Further, a wider rim creates a more-vertical tire sidewall that won't yield vertically as far with any given change in loading.

So expecting larger tires to be more absorbent toward many types of surface imperfections requires quite-large reductions in air pressure.

[Kontact]

I can't answer for John H., but air pressure is just one variable in terms of vertical compliance of the tire.

A wider tire's larger cross-sectional radius may bridge surface defects such that they don't transmit as much shock, and it's permissible lower pressure (without risk of pinch-flat) equates to a wider contact patch. Good so far, but a 2x wider tire has 2x the tension in the casing at the same pressure, and casing tension resists local deflection as imposed by bits of gravel or a rough asphalt surface.

And where surface defects are more undulating than square-edged, a wider tire resists vertical deflection more than a narrower tire. Further, a wider rim creates a more-vertical tire sidewall that won't yield vertically as far with any given change in loading.

So expecting larger tires to be more absorbent toward many types of surface imperfections requires quite-large reductions in air pressure.

How much larger than 30 psi?

[dddd]

How much larger than 30 psi?

I frequently ride an old rigid mtb back and forth across town with rough asphalt along the sides of the road, and since I'm 150# light 30psi is exactly what I use in the 2" hybrid-treaded tires. I would say that 30psi is quite low enough for this tire size, it's just a third of my normal road tire pressure, though at 45mm (actual) width these are just less than twice the width of my 25-25mm road tires.

It's plenty absorbant on rough patches, but it would take suspension to absorb undulations at speed and then some kind of damping would be needed.

I've noticed that the casings of the cheapest plus-bike tires provide such useful damping at very low pressures, but of course eat up LOTS of watts in rolling resistance, and literally add pounds to a bike.

[chiasticon]

how much did you ride the bike before taking time off? did you think it was too stiff/uncomfortable then, when you were riding more? I'm still wondering if a lot of this is you adapting to riding more. I feel similar aches when switching from cx and winter bikes with a more upright position and forgiving ride, to my summer bike with a stiffer frame, smaller tires and a more racey position. it goes away after a couple weeks though.

the other thing is to remember that you asked for a race ready bike, right? that doesn't mean "focus on making it comfortable" it means "make it stiff and responsive." certainly not a bad thing, but maybe it's just not a bike you want to ride in every situation. if indeed your outlook towards riding has changed during your time off, and you're no longer focusing on racing or race-type rides and instead prefer more casual riding, then it's possible the frame just doesn't suit your riding style any more.

also as a lover/owner of IF's I'll say that bike looks friggin' sweet. nice job!

[93KgBike]

Perhaps he meant a thinner seat post with a shim.

But that isn't going to help your hands.

Thanks Kontact, that's exactly what I meant. It could help the hands, as it allows you to unweight them while pedaling. However, look at those beefy stays... Track bike?

[FlashUNC]

how much did you ride the bike before taking time off? did you think it was too stiff/uncomfortable then, when you were riding more? I'm still wondering if a lot of this is you adapting to riding more. I feel similar aches when switching from cx and winter bikes with a more upright position and forgiving ride, to my summer bike with a stiffer frame, smaller tires and a more racey position. it goes away after a couple weeks though.

the other thing is to remember that you asked for a race ready bike, right? that doesn't mean "focus on making it comfortable" it means "make it stiff and responsive." certainly not a bad thing, but maybe it's just not a bike you want to ride in every situation. if indeed your outlook towards riding has changed during your time off, and you're no longer focusing on racing or race-type rides and instead prefer more casual riding, then it's possible the frame just doesn't suit your riding style any more.

also as a lover/owner of IF's I'll say that bike looks friggin' sweet. nice job!

Tough to suss out what's the bike and what's getting back into it after a long layoff.

It ain't an armchair, after all.

[texbike]

Life is to short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

Agreed! I tend to like stiffer bikes, but had a Legend Ti with a Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork a few years ago that was just brutal. The bike was a perfect fit and it was beautiful. I tried multiple wheelsets, saddles (all Ariones), a couple of seatposts, and of course lower tire pressure (90 lbs in PR3s). Nothing would fix the ride quality. At one point, I started calling it the Asspounder 6000. ;) What was really disappointing is that the stiffness didn't translate into increased ability to accelerate over my other bikes. It felt muddy and blah. After a year, I gave up and kicked it out of the garage.

Oh well, not all bikes are perfect. As NYCfixie states above, life is too short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

Texbike

[mikmcconnell]

how much did you ride the bike before taking time off? did you think it was too stiff/uncomfortable then, when you were riding more? I'm still wondering if a lot of this is you adapting to riding more. I feel similar aches when switching from cx and winter bikes with a more upright position and forgiving ride, to my summer bike with a stiffer frame, smaller tires and a more racey position. it goes away after a couple weeks though.

the other thing is to remember that you asked for a race ready bike, right? that doesn't mean "focus on making it comfortable" it means "make it stiff and responsive." certainly not a bad thing, but maybe it's just not a bike you want to ride in every situation. if indeed your outlook towards riding has changed during your time off, and you're no longer focusing on racing or race-type rides and instead prefer more casual riding, then it's possible the frame just doesn't suit your riding style any more.

also as a lover/owner of IF's I'll say that bike looks friggin' sweet. nice job!I've always thought it was super stiff. I came off a bmc on to it and was racing a lot at the time. It's stiffer than anything my friends have or anything else I've ever come across - even in small sizes. It doesn't jolt as much as carbon bikes that are as stiff, but it's probably overkill

I've gone back to the build sheets and the questionnaire from IF and I asked for something neutral re stiffness. I wanted an aggressive position, and I still like that, I wanted it to steer quickly etc. I love the angles. But I said neutral on comfort and I think that they've overdone it because they were building around the only fork on the market at the time.

The bike really was pushing the envelope when it came out. I got it made for Dura Ace di2 hydro discs five years before they were available on the market (I'm no visionary, it just took shimano way longer to finish them than I thought)!

And yes, thanks, it's a gorgeous machine. I'm very pleased with how it's aging aesthetically. Still looks good.

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[mikmcconnell]

Tough to suss out what's the bike and what's getting back into it after a long layoff.

It ain't an armchair, after all.Yeah you're all right on this point. But it c c uzdzfdy a

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[Heisenberg]

From glancing at the photo of your frame, yes, that bike will be a stiff-as-nails jackhammer unless there's some fancy-ass custom butting going on I'm not seeing.

It's easy to build a too-stiff Ti frame.

[mikmcconnell]

Thanks Kontact, that's exactly what I meant. It could help the hands, as it allows you to unweight them while pedaling. However, look at those beefy stays... Track bike?Yup, it certainly feels like it transmits power!

Seatpost is already shimmed. In the oversize tubes IF put a Carbon sleeve in the seat tube. So that's a 27.2 post with a 31.8 clamp and there's an internal sleeve in the seattube


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[mikmcconnell]

From glancing at the photo of your frame, yes, that bike will be a stiff-as-nails jackhammer unless there's some fancy-ass custom butting going on I'm not seeing.

It's easy to build a too-stiff Ti frame.Nope, it all be straight gauge as far as i know.

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[mikmcconnell]

Agreed! I tend to like stiffer bikes, but had a Legend Ti with a Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork a few years ago that was just brutal. The bike was a perfect fit and it was beautiful. I tried multiple wheelsets, saddles (all Ariones), a couple of seatposts, and of course lower tire pressure (90 lbs in PR3s). Nothing would fix the ride quality. At one point, I started calling it the Asspounder 6000. ;) What was really disappointing is that the stiffness didn't translate into increased ability to accelerate over my other bikes. It felt muddy and blah. After a year, I gave up and kicked it out of the garage.

Oh well, not all bikes are perfect. As NYCfixie states above, life is too short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

Texbike

It's that line that's been the most useful in this whole thread - life is too short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

You get all emotionally attached to the things (time, energy, cost that went into them - and that's my first and only custom bike), but really what matters more is the ride.

I've got 28mm tyres on the way and we'll see how they go, but I've also got a couple test rides lined up on carbon race bikes (as much as it drove me nuts because the cable routing was **** and it would fill up with water when it rained, I loved my SLC01 - you know, the one Floyd won the tour on).

I've always wanted a Cannondale (love that geometry) and there's a new local outfit here called Chapter 2 that's making some cool looking bikes (lazier geo though).

So, I'm definitely selling the C40 (anyone want a small Mapei C40 with a pristine Super Record groupset and kinlin / dt swiss / alchemy wheels?) and I might be selling the IF.

We will see.

Life's too short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

[NYCfixie]

As a young lad who grew up in NYC, I was happy, and even enjoyed, riding those terribly harsh early Cannondale frames on the mean and potholed streets of Manhattan. Big fat aluminium tubes were cool...and so was I at the time.

So many years later and being called "Sir" (and not Dude) all the time, I like comfortable Ti bikes. Making a stiff Ti bike sort of ruins the purpose of having a Ti bike. No offense to the OP since I do not think that is really what he wanted 5 years ago when he ordered it.

Usually the advantage of being at the point in your life when you only get called "Sir" is that you can sell a bike you do not like anymore and get something new. Someone out there will love that frame for all the reasons you do not like it anymore.

Life is too short to ride uncomfortable bikes.


It's that line that's been the most useful in this whole thread - life is too short to ride uncomfortable bikes.




Life is to short too ride uncomfortable bikes.

[mikmcconnell]

Yeah, no offense taken. Yep, that's what I thought I was ordering.

Part of this is age and stage for me too I think. I was 31 or 32 when I thought it up and ordered it, was racing a lot, spending a lot of time with the man with the hammer, and didn't have kids.

Now I'm closer to 40, I've got two little girls, a big ass mortgage, and I spend my spare time on fixing my house.

Hell, halfway through this posting last night I was under my house digging out the dirt under the floor so I can build another storage area on the weekend.

People call me sir when I go to the supermarket.

I love how my C40 rides but I'm crap at mechanical stuff and I LOVE hydraulic disc brakes.

So, I guess what I really want is a road bike that rides comfortably, still has an aggressive position and is light (the C40 ticks all these boxes), and has disc brakes and electronic (and who can justify the mental prices of a C60 disc, seriously!).

As a young lad who grew up in NYC, I was happy, and even enjoyed, riding those terribly harsh early Cannondale frames on the mean and potholed streets of Manhattan. Big fat aluminium tubes were cool...and so was I at the time.

So many years later and being called "Sir" (and not Dude) all the time, I like comfortable Ti bikes. Making a stiff Ti bike sort of ruins the purpose of having a Ti bike. No offense to the OP since I do not think that is really what he wanted 5 years ago when he ordered it.

Usually the advantage of being at the point in your life when you only get called "Sir" is that you can sell a bike you do not like anymore and get something new. Someone out there will love that frame for all the reasons you do not like it anymore.

Life is too short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

[adrien]

Have you ever tried it with cotton open tubular tires?

I've found they can make a big difference -- maybe Vittoria Corsas?

Worth a shot...

[Kontact]

I would be surprised if any disc road bike was very comfortable with narrow tires. I think that's the controlling limit on the OP's bike and the compromise for different braking.

[mikmcconnell]

Good question, no I haven't.

But that kinda defeats the purpose of the bike - I'd then have to spend to build a set of tubs and I'd have a race day only bike. Which, given how little I race road nowadays, is a lot of bling to have hanging on the rack.

This was supposed to be an all weather all conditions all days road and race bike. Which it is at the moment, it's just also rocketship stiff.

(OT: are rocketships stiff?)

Have you ever tried it with cotton open tubular tires?

I've found they can make a big difference -- maybe Vittoria Corsas?

Worth a shot...

[mikmcconnell]

I would be surprised if any disc road bike was very comfortable with narrow tires. I think that's the controlling limit on the OP's bike and the compromise for different braking.I'll ride a few and let you know. But I'll be riding them all with 25mm tyres on 19mm rims that measure up more like 27mm!

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[Imaking20]

Good question, no I haven't.

But that kinda defeats the purpose of the bike - I'd then have to spend to build a set of tubs and I'd have a race day only bike. Which, given how little I race road nowadays, is a lot of bling to have hanging on the rack.

This was supposed to be an all weather all conditions all days road and race bike. Which it is at the moment, it's just also rocketship stiff.

(OT: are rocketships stiff?)

He was referring to open tubular - which is an overly complicated way for manufacturers to say "clincher".

I would certainly echo the sentiment about some high quality cotton tires and throw in some latex tubes. I've turned some jackhammer carbon bikes into totally acceptable with this simple combination. My recommendation, depending on availability to you, would be something like the Specialized Turbo Cotton in 26mm and some vittoria or vredestein latex tubes. They won't be as resistant to cuts in wet weather, compared to the Continental, but in my experience, the ride and handling is in another league. And the tread wears a lot better than the Vittoria CX tread of yester-year

[RyanH]

As the poster above mentioned, you'll get a significantly more comfortable ride with latext tubes and a good clincher. Veloflex Masters in 25mm with a good latex tube may actually be more comfortable than my Veloflex Roubaix tubulars. Trust me, that makes a huge difference. Don't waste your time with Vittoria Corsas. Even with the 28mm version of the Corsas and latex tubes and lower pressure, I could feel more road vibration than with the 25mm masters and higher pressure.

[mikmcconnell]

Hmmm. Okay. Well that might be the next option.

I'm taking a supersix evo hi mod for a spin tomorrow with my wheels and seat to get a reference point.

I've got some conti 28s on the way.

I nearly bought some of the Vittoria corsas but decided against it.

Sounds like the least regrets approach is to try the contis, then the veloflex or Vittorias with latex tubes, and then make a decision.

Extra tyres are never wasted money.

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[RyanH]

Uh, ya, Evo should at least provide some perspective cause that's a fairly harsh bike compared to Ti.

I'd strongly recommend Veloflex Master or Specialized Cotton Turbos over Vittoria Corsa. The Corsas are fine but if you want ultimate comfort then might as well go straight to the best option, especially since Masters can usually be purchased for the same price as Corsas.

Oh, one last comment, seatpost may not be a bad place to look either. I don't know how the Deda stacks up but a Ritchey flexlogic would do wonders. I once put a 3T Pro alloy post on my Litespeed and I almost felt like I was riding the Evo again.

[mikmcconnell]

Righto, masters it is.

And I hadn't considered seatpost.

The Deda looks good, but I don't know how compliant it is.

Just read James Huang's article on seatposts which is pretty positive about the Canyon posts

Uh, ya, Evo should at least provide some perspective cause that's a fairly harsh bike compared to Ti.

I'd strongly recommend Veloflex Master or Specialized Cotton Turbos over Vittoria Corsa. The Corsas are fine but if you want ultimate comfort then might as well go straight to the best option, especially since Masters can usually be purchased for the same price as Corsas.

Oh, one last comment, seatpost may not be a bad place to look either. I don't know how the Deda stacks up but a Ritchey flexlogic would do wonders. I once put a 3T Pro alloy post on my Litespeed and I almost felt like I was riding the Evo again.

[yashcha]

Righto, masters it is.

And I hadn't considered seatpost.

The Deda looks good, but I don't know how compliant it is.

Just read James Huang's article on seatposts which is pretty positive about the Canyon posts

I had one of the Canyon VCLS posts. Although not light at 260 grams, it had a ton of fore aft adjustability and tamed some of the sting out of my alu canyon ultimate rolling over chipsealed Belfast UK roads.

I hate to suggest this, as it will be costly, but have you considered building up a box section wheelset (Hplus son TB14 + Bikehubstore hubs)? I go back and forth between a box section 32 hole wheelset and a deep section rim, like the Deep V, and the ride quality is noticeably smoother on the box section rim.

Also, man, that bike looks very nice and certainly ahead of it's time in 2012.

[pbarry]

Great thread OP, thanks for sharing. A few thoughts:

All around, the tubing is too big for your weight, especially the rear end. Even smaller seat stays would give it more compliance. You must have been a hammer a few years ago not to notice.

Better tires and a different seat post might get you into the comfort zone. Excellent suggestions and good to hear you are up for trying them.

NYCfixie's comments re: Seven's customer service speak volumes. Doing that retrofit is so much work: Close to the man hours it would take to buid a new frame. I've done that mod and it's a lot of sweat/grinding/filing.

Good luck in your search and keep posting here. :beer:

[mikmcconnell]

You guys have been amazing.

I'm a long time lurker here and on VSalon but this is the first really gnarly issue I've run into and put out to tender as it were and the community response has been awesome.

Might be solvable, might not be, we'll see.

As for whether I noticed the first time around? Nah, I did, but I kinda tried not to let myself believe it. Confirmation bias right? I'd spent all this money on my dream bike, my mate had toiled on the build, and I wanted to believe it was perfect. I couldn't bear for it not to be.

I've got enough emotional distance from it now that I can approach it a bit more rationally.

It was the ride quality of the Ritchey Swiss Cross that opened my eyes. I could have disc brakes and a great position and comfort . . .

It'll be interesting to see what the 'dale rides like. There's the possibly different level of comfort, but the other thing of course is that it would be close to a whole kg lighter which is a consideration (I live in Wellington in New Zealand. We don't have flat. We only have hills. Lots and lots and lots of hills. It takes me ten minutes to get to work and half an hour to get home. I work at the bottom of a hill and live at the top of one).

And yeah, on that Seven thing. I thought it must have been about as much as a new frame. I got in touch with IF to talk about changing the rear triangle for flatmount and Jesse was just "we could, but you'd really be better off with a whole new frame for what it would cost. " Hence the XTR calipers (which are the f**king business btw).

Great thread OP, thanks for sharing. A few thoughts:

All around, the tubing is too big for your weight, especially the rear end. Even smaller seat stays would give it more compliance. You must have been a hammer a few years ago not to notice.

Better tires and a different seat post might get you into the comfort zone. Excellent suggestions and good to hear you are up for trying them.

NYCfixie's comments re: Seven's customer service speak volumes. Doing that retrofit is so much work: Close to the man hours it would take to buid a new frame. I've done that mod and it's a lot of sweat/grinding/filing.

Good luck in your search and keep posting here. :beer:

[mikmcconnell]

Yeah, I'm avoiding a new wheelset (I just sold a disc wheelset last week!).

It feels like a backwards step to put an old style wheelset on what is a pretty cutting edge bike.

We'll see where things land, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this shipped back to the states for someone up there to enjoy. It'd be an absolutely epic crit racer.

I had one of the Canyon VCLS posts. Although not light at 260 grams, it had a ton of fore aft adjustability and tamed some of the sting out of my alu canyon ultimate rolling over chipsealed Belfast UK roads.

I hate to suggest this, as it will be costly, but have you considered building up a box section wheelset (Hplus son TB14 + Bikehubstore hubs)? I go back and forth between a box section 32 hole wheelset and a deep section rim, like the Deep V, and the ride quality is noticeably smoother on the box section rim.

Also, man, that bike looks very nice and certainly ahead of it's time in 2012.

[Imaking20]

Agree, this thread has developed pretty quickly and a lot of great dialogue.

I will say I didn't have great luck with Veloflex clinchers - even being a fan boy now on their tubulars I would be hard pressed to recommend any clincher over the current Specialized offerings. And this is after several years of primarily riding Vittoria CX and SC. I think Specialized nailed the ride and grip of the Vittoria while producing a more durable tread. I didn't think the Veloflex was quite there and I had some suicidal sidewalls that kept me from putting too many miles on them.

Good luck whatever you do. I think you've definitely got some worthwhile options before anything as severe as a frame swap. That thing is definitely attractive - I'd be motivated to try to make it work!

[Climb01742]

Anyone who's ever ridden a Serotta Legend built for someone else can attest that a Ti frame can be way too stiff. Yes, it's a generalization, but Legends were stiffer, and harsher, than most other Ti frames ever built. Not all but many.

Ti can be overbuilt just like any other set of pipes.

[mikmcconnell]

Comments on durability is what stopped me pressing go on the Vittorias last night. Comfort is all very well, but there's a practicality element I just can't get around and that's why I keep coming back to Contis. They're just so damn good on the balance between performance and durability.

I'll see what I can find re: Specialized tyres around here (their close to vertically integrated distribution model tends towards expensive as the end result).

And yeah, it's the aesthetics and general uber coolness of it that is motivating me to try and make it work if I can.

But I don't want to overdo it to the point where I'm trying to make hot ice cream if you know what I mean.

A new seatpost (the canyon outperforms the others by a margin according to the data led test that James Huang did) is $400 NZD.

Before I went there I'd want the tyre change to have done a decent amount of work in settling it down, because a seatpost ain't gonna help the front end.

And of course maybe I get on the 'dale and find out - oh hell, these new disc race bikes are stiff as a board!

Agree, this thread has developed pretty quickly and a lot of great dialogue.

I will say I didn't have great luck with Veloflex clinchers - even being a fan boy now on their tubulars I would be hard pressed to recommend any clincher over the current Specialized offerings. And this is after several years of primarily riding Vittoria CX and SC. I think Specialized nailed the ride and grip of the Vittoria while producing a more durable tread. I didn't think the Veloflex was quite there and I had some suicidal sidewalls that kept me from putting too many miles on them.

Good luck whatever you do. I think you've definitely got some worthwhile options before anything as severe as a frame swap. That thing is definitely attractive - I'd be motivated to try to make it work!

[Kontact]

I think Conti 28s are a fair test. Just be sure to use an appropriately low tire pressure to actually get the benefit.

This chart is based on weight per wheel, rather than total weight:

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/bertopresschart.jpg


Sorry if I'm voicing the obvious.

[mikmcconnell]

Useful chart. I had a similar chart based on total rider weight for 23 and 25mm tyres, but not for bigger. So that puts it at about 55 rear, 50 front on a 28.

That seems about right, maybe even a bit higher than I was thinking.

I think Conti 28s are a fair test. Just be sure to use an appropriately low tire pressure to actually get the benefit.

This chart is based on weight per wheel, rather than total weight:

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/bertopresschart.jpg


Sorry if I'm voicing the obvious.

[shovelhd]

So that puts it at about 55 rear, 50 front on a 28.


That's what I run on 28's, maybe a little higher if road conditions are ideal.

[mikmcconnell]

just rode a supersix evo hi-mod disc.

with a different wheelset though.

my initial impressions were that it was a lot better. i went for 20 miles on it.

then i got back on the IF and actually . . hell . . . pretty hard to tell.

28s might be sufficient if they fit. we will see.

OT: C40 sold pending payment.

[RyanH]

Keep in mind that the supersix has a comfort seatpost. Having owned a supersix with the same wheelset and same seatpost/saddle and bars, it was significantly harsher riding that my Litespeed T3 which is a fairly race oriented Ti frame.

[mikmcconnell]

Good reminder. That's where it was the smoothest actually . . .

Keep in mind that the supersix has a comfort seatpost. Having owned a supersix with the same wheelset and same seatpost/saddle and bars, it was significantly harsher riding that my Litespeed T3 which is a fairly race oriented Ti frame.

[mikmcconnell]

Update.

28mm Contis made a huge difference.

But then I got a deal on a new Outback Carbon Breakaway so once that's built I'll probably be moving this one on.

So, if you're around 5'5" to 5'8" (ish), get in touch. I'll have a gorgeous IF on the market soonish.

[soulspinner]

Anyone who's ever ridden a Serotta Legend built for someone else can attest that a Ti frame can be way too stiff. Yes, it's a generalization, but Legends were stiffer, and harsher, than most other Ti frames ever built. Not all but many.

Ti can be overbuilt just like any other set of pipes.

yup. Worked in a shop and rode a Serotta in my size (56) and felt every piece of dirt in the road. There is a correct compliance for each rider.

[eddief]

took a really long time to go nowhere at all.

What is the bottom line?

[mikmcconnell]

took a really long time to go nowhere at all.

What is the bottom line?Frame is very good with 28s - basically the same as a supersix.

Frame would be awesome if you wanted to race crits on it - just awesome.

I've realised I'm getting on a bit and the geo and soft ride of the ritchey is more my thing. That, and the travel issue from the breakaway is a real bonus.



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