Power training / Software / Training in a given zone

[Wayne77]

Hello, I'm looking at various training applications like TrainerRoad, Rouvy, Golden Cheetah, etc - looking for a training application that integrates with a smart trainer (in my case a Wahoo Kickr) but also allows me to 1) download training plans, similar to what TrainerRoad provides, or alternatively upload a training plan I get elsewhere 2) View weekly, and possibly even monthly stats on percent time training in a given power zone.

I've used TrainerRoad quite a bit and love the training plans but I don't see any metrics on time spend in zone. In my pre-season base miles phase I'd like to focus on zone 2 at least 60-70% of overall load, with less time doing high intensity intervals than I normally do this time of year. As I get closer to the racing season I'll start to increase high intensity intervals, using build and rest phases of course.

**one other related question: does anyone know if the TrainerRoad training plans follow the Coggan recommended regimen or other recognized approach? Or is it really based on some other mix they've created?

I can't really afford a coach at this point but I know enough about where I want to focus my training to be semi-effective but can't find SW that gives me metrics on time spent in training zone...maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Training Peaks probably offers this, but its on the higher end of the monthly price scale, so ideally there's something subscription based that is closer to many other apps $10 per month pricing. If there isn't anything else, I'll probably have to go the TrainingPeaks route.

[shovelhd]

I've always felt it best to use the proper tool for the job. You're asking for workout planning and post workout analysis. TP can do both, for a price. Platforms like TR and Strava try to do both, but my experience is that they are a compromise at best. GC can do all the workout analysis you'd ever want, including time in zone for the workout, day, week, and season. I suggest that you stick with whatever workout system you're using now, and do your post workout analysis using GC by uploading the .fit file.

[Clean39T]

I’m planning to try this when I get a PM on my bike again: https://www.todaysplan.com.au/

As for TrainerRoad, I’m a big fan across the board. Their programs are great and the company is too. You can also build your own workouts easily and use the app to control your smart-trainer with that workout you built. Mine syncs to Strava, and Strava syncs to WattsBoard, which is free for basic features, and can do things like show you this, which is my zones breakdown for the last three days:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/19cc7e6f99494b5ea089e27ac234443d.jpg

And here are the two rides that made those zones happen (Strava Premium zones and TrainerRoad summary - app and website):

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/c6191a9367a807a15fe79a36a20d74f7.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/b792d6bc09e1d183d8e12483be03103c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/bdac1c672e02b5133e431146e1d34826.jpg

And:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/c0e5d9c8816788ff809ed3ccbf23394d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/4eb18bf9581c5213aaf85b3289dea08a.jpg

I signed up for TrainingPeaks because I started working with a coach (kind of), but honestly, I get nothing out of TP and find their system clunky and overly complicated.

[ptourkin]

The Stravistix plugin for Strava on Chrome definitely gives all of that for each ride. I'm not sure they have a weekly summary, but they may.

[Clean39T]

The Stravistix plugin for Strava on Chrome definitely gives all of that for each ride. I'm not sure they have a weekly summary, but they may.


Can you ELI5 how this works? I added the extension to chrome, what now?

EDIT: nevermind, once I imported, everything showed up and makes sense.

Thanks for the tip on it...

[gospastic]

Stravistix as far as I can tell does not give any sort of weekly summaries.

[Wayne77]

I've always felt it best to use the proper tool for the job. You're asking for workout planning and post workout analysis. TP can do both, for a price. Platforms like TR and Strava try to do both, but my experience is that they are a compromise at best. GC can do all the workout analysis you'd ever want, including time in zone for the workout, day, week, and season. I suggest that you stick with whatever workout system you're using now, and do your post workout analysis using GC by uploading the .fit file.

I hadn’t thought of that. Good idea, use my workout app of choice and then upload to GC. Thanks. It would be nice if I could know before hand what target time in zone is for a given training plan I select is. That would make it easier to stay within the target time in zone for a given week. That’s why I ask what methodology the TrainerRoad plans are based on. I’ve read that Coggan doesn’t recommend an emphasis on lots of Z2 base Miles (for time constrained athletes) but there are several contrasting arguments from other experts that do emphasize off season training with the majority of time spent in Z2 (65-70%)

[Wayne77]

Very helpful! I’ll check out Wattsboars as well

I’m planning to try this when I get a PM on my bike again: https://www.todaysplan.com.au/

As for TrainerRoad, I’m a big fan across the board. Their programs are great and the company is too. You can also build your own workouts easily and use the app to control your smart-trainer with that workout you built. Mine syncs to Strava, and Strava syncs to WattsBoard, which is free for basic features, and can do things like show you this, which is my zones breakdown for the last three days:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/19cc7e6f99494b5ea089e27ac234443d.jpg

And here are the two rides that made those zones happen (Strava Premium zones and TrainerRoad summary - app and website):

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/c6191a9367a807a15fe79a36a20d74f7.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/b792d6bc09e1d183d8e12483be03103c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/bdac1c672e02b5133e431146e1d34826.jpg

And:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/c0e5d9c8816788ff809ed3ccbf23394d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/4eb18bf9581c5213aaf85b3289dea08a.jpg

I signed up for TrainingPeaks because I started working with a coach (kind of), but honestly, I get nothing out of TP and find their system clunky and overly complicated.

[Clean39T]

I hadn’t thought of that. Good idea, use my workout app of choice and then upload to GC. Thanks. It would be nice if I could know before hand what target time in zone is for a given training plan I select is. That would make it easier to stay within the target time in zone for a given week. That’s why I ask what methodology the TrainerRoad plans are based on. I’ve read that Coggan doesn’t recommend an emphasis on lots of Z2 base Miles (for time constrained athletes) but there are several contrasting arguments from other experts that do emphasize off season training with the majority of time spent in Z2 (65-70%)

Check out the TrainerRoad blog for more info than you can shake a stick at on why they recommend "sweet spot" training, while still offering other approaches...

[shovelhd]

What type of training to do when is a topic of great disagreement and worthy of its own thread. I was never a big fan of tons of endurance and sweet spot training for base unless you are an elite athlete. It just cranks your CTL and sets you up for early burnout.

[bentaco]

Seconding Wattsboard as well. It's one of the only free web apps you can find that gives you things like a performance management chart (for 6 months of data at least). It includes a lot of useful charts including time spent in zone like OP is looking for. It's also pretty reasonable ($40/year) if you decide you want to view historical data as well.

[Wayne77]

What type of training to do when is a topic of great disagreement and worthy of its own thread. I was never a big fan of tons of endurance and sweet spot training for base unless you are an elite athlete. It just cranks your CTL and sets you up for early burnout.

Thanks. When you say 'never a big fan of tons of endurance (zone2) and sweet spot training for base', what is your preferred approach? As I read online I'm finding at least 2 schools of thought. One that emphasizes an off season heavily weighted towards Zone 2 / Endurance (65-75%), with some intervals mixed in, and then the Coggan approach which is heavily weighted towards lots of sweet spot training during the offseason.

Coggan argues that the traditional "off season focus heavily on Z2 base miles" only benefits advanced athletes that can put it far more saddle time than those of us who have day jobs. He makes the case that the best time constrained approach is to do at least 3 sessions per week of fairly intense sweet spot training mixed with some recovery in between. However, I also read articles stressing that too much off-season sweet spot training doesn't enhance mitochondria like Z2 training does...ie offseason Z2 training focuses on enhancing metabolic efficiency while minimizing CTL. For example this case study referenced in Velonews makes this case "How many base miles do you really need" http://www.velonews.com/2018/01/training-center/diagnosis-many-base-miles-really-need_454048

I've been working with a coach in the past and our approach was tried and true Coggan sweet spot training during the off season. 3 fairly intense Computrainer interval sessions a week, with lots of 5/10/15 min efforts at 85-95% of FTP, and some workouts with 30-60 second intervals at 120-130% of FTP. I was having difficulty feeling fully recovered between sessions, even with a day in between. I typically had no problem completing the workouts involving lots of short and very intense efforts, but really struggled with the workouts involving long sweet spot efforts. In fact I saw my 5 second and 30 second power increase quite a bit, but FTP gains were very hard to come by.

Thoughts?

[KARLNAGO]

I've used Golden Cheetah for a number of years now, very very happy with what it provides.

[Wayne77]

By the way, I re-named the post title slightly to open it up a little more to also include thoughts about training approaches (especially off season)

[cal_len1]

The sufferfest now uses training peaks for all it's training plans, and all rides can be uploaded there. I enjoy The Sufferfest better than Trainer Road, although I appreciate what they do, but I know it's personal preference. I know that Training peaks would give you what you want, might give it a shot if the other options aren't what you are looking for. The only disappointing thing is that it might require a paid subscription to get what you want, but it's worth a look.

[shovelhd]

Again, it depends on what kind of racing you want to do, how long your season is, whether you want to race for fun and have decent fitness all season or race to win and peak for a very few key events. There is no one answer. Free coaching is usually worth what you paid for it.

I was primarily a crit racer who did several road races during the season. Two crits per day, about 2 1/4 hours per race day, 1-3 race days per week. Road races were 3-4 hours. The road season was March-September, no CX. I rode for pleasure for September and October. I pretty much took November off, riding 1-2 times a week at recovery pace. The real training started in December. Zone 2 with short Z4 intervals, mostly 1-1.5 hours with a few 2-3 hour rides mixed in once per week. 3 days on, day off, one pure recovery day, day off. January through March was all intensity, lots of intervals and racing on Sundays. Before the first road race in April I would do a rest week, which was Z2 with some Z5 intervals mixed in. In season training was racing, intensity, and lots of real recovery rides, under 60 TSS. Three weeks on, one week rest.

To do a lot of intensity, you have to have the discipline to stay in zone and stick to the plan. Most lower category racers don't have that kind of discipline. They want to do the hammerfest ride, the club TT, and a long ride every week, then expect to have race winning fitness in the middle of the season.

[Andy sti]

How old are you, what type of racing, and how many hours a week can you train? Also how long have you been doing this - how big is your base?

Zone 2 on the trainer is painful. I need intervals and something to do or I get bored and quit. I get my long z2 stuff doing 3+ hours of skate skiing on the weekend days.

[Wayne77]

How old are you, what type of racing, and how many hours a week can you train? Also how long have you been doing this - how big is your base?

Zone 2 on the trainer is painful. I need intervals and something to do or I get bored and quit. I get my long z2 stuff doing 3+ hours of skate skiing on the weekend days.

46 yrs old, 170 lbs, FTP 288, I've been racing since 2013. Started racing @ 195 lbs and FTP of 212. Currently upper Cat4 level. Mostly road races but I do a crit every now and then. Each year I do several 50-60 mile road races, a couple 100 mile races, a 150 mile road race, and a 200 mile road race (Lotoja classic), all in the Masters 35+ 4 or 35+ 3/4 category. I log 7000-8000 miles per year. My FTP has leveled off and I'm having a hard time getting more than an increase of a few watts every 6 weeks when I do a new FTP test. I think I have sleep and recovery routines dialed in, probably some improvements needed in daily nutrition however. I do enjoy a good donut every now and then :)

During the peak of the season I'm doing around 250-300 miles per week. Lots of elevation. Off season 7-8 hrs a week with a mix of indoor intervals & outdoor rides, weather permitting. My 'A' races are the Lotoja Classic (9000' / 203 miles) and the Crusher gravel race (9500' / 67 miles)

Not sure if any of that adds any meaningful info, but I guess I fit the classic profile of the Masters guy who puts the time in but works a full time job...and enjoys a good meal :-) The Masters Cat3/4 group here is a really packed field so you really have to be smart or extra athletic to get on the podium. I'm getting close, with several very near misses so I figure I need to work on watts per kilo...maybe lean up just a bit (not too much) and see if I can get to the magic 300W FTP level. We'll see I guess...Either way I'm happy to have the privilege of racing and riding with many good friends in the pack way faster than me. :cool:

[shovelhd]

So you race less than 35 hours a season, but log 8,000 miles? That's the first thing I'd address. See my discipline comment above.

[Wayne77]

So you race less than 35 hours a season, but log 8,000 miles? That's the first thing I'd address. See my discipline comment above.

Must have been a typo in there. Last year I logged 450 hours. I'd say peak of the season probably 15-17 hours a week. Now that I think about it, its probably closer to 10-11 hours per week off-season. EDIT: now I understand your comment...'race' being the key word. I'm not racing enough. Agreed. It gets expensive, so if I can't do more races than I am doing currently maybe I can structure my training to be as race oriented as possible...

That said, your discipline comment is spot-on...so that's what I'm shooting for this season. I have pretty good discipline during the winter since I go to a coached indoor group Computrainer session 3x a week (classic Sweet spot training)...but then the season hits and many of us Cat4's start to log tons of miles but we slack off on the structured intervals. This is where I plan to put my smart trainer to good use.

[shovelhd]

It's not a matter of not racing "enough". Race how much you want to race. What you need to figure out is what that racing means to you. Is it going to be primarily for fun? Do you expect podiums for results?

17 average hours a week of riding and racing is a LOT for a non-elite rider. I can see you doing that kind of volume for portions of the season, as you train for the longer races, but if you want to increase your speed, you have to reduce the volume and add more rest. If you add intensity to a 17 hour program, you may not be happy with your results. It is absolutely critical to track your CTL, do frequent FTP tests, and constantly adjust your training and rest load to avoid burnout.

Doing lots of long sweet spot sessions for base is something I would avoid. You're better off with long Z2 sessions and short FTP interval sessions (2x10, 2x15, 2x20 increasing as you get closer to the season). Z2, FTP, Z2, rest, FTP, Z2, rest. I'd do this for two months. Then start intensity. Over/unders, sprint sessions, and race winning intervals. Reduce the long Z2 and FTP and add recovery. Long Z2 or shorter sweet spot, O/U, recovery, FTP, O/U, recovery, rest. Rest week every fourth week. Rest weeks are similar to regular weeks but half the TSS. Recovery is 60 TSS or less. Two weeks before the long races replace one intensity workout with a longer ride, mixed intensity but watch the TSS. Rest week before each long race. Openers the day before race day. Recovery pace (under 60 TSS) but add in three or four 80% form sprints. Know your sprint jump and 15s power and cut that to 80%. Slow windup, no jump.

[Wayne77]

It's not a matter of not racing "enough". Race how much you want to race. What you need to figure out is what that racing means to you. Is it going to be primarily for fun? Do you expect podiums for results?

17 average hours a week of riding and racing is a LOT for a non-elite rider. I can see you doing that kind of volume for portions of the season, as you train for the longer races, but if you want to increase your speed, you have to reduce the volume and add more rest. If you add intensity to a 17 hour program, you may not be happy with your results. It is absolutely critical to track your CTL, do frequent FTP tests, and constantly adjust your training and rest load to avoid burnout.

Doing lots of long sweet spot sessions for base is something I would avoid. You're better off with long Z2 sessions and short FTP interval sessions (2x10, 2x15, 2x20 increasing as you get closer to the season). Z2, FTP, Z2, rest, FTP, Z2, rest. I'd do this for two months. Then start intensity. Over/unders, sprint sessions, and race winning intervals. Reduce the long Z2 and FTP and add recovery. Long Z2 or shorter sweet spot, O/U, recovery, FTP, O/U, recovery, rest. Rest week every fourth week. Rest weeks are similar to regular weeks but half the TSS. Recovery is 60 TSS or less. Two weeks before the long races replace one intensity workout with a longer ride, mixed intensity but watch the TSS. Rest week before each long race. Openers the day before race day. Recovery pace (under 60 TSS) but add in three or four 80% form sprints. Know your sprint jump and 15s power and cut that to 80%. Slow windup, no jump.

This is incredibly helpful! Thanks for taking the time to share your advice. Much appreciated.

[Andy sti]

Wayne,
I'm a year older and have similar goals. I primarily do stage races and try to get 3-5 in per year. I mix in some one day races and a couple crits for good measure too. I think you have the right idea for your training. You don't need to race a ton you just have to decide if you want to train for the races you care about. While I can't give you a run down like shovelhd I agree with some of his points.

I like your A races. I've done Crusher a couple times and know that if you want to win you'll need an FTP close to 4.8 w/kg. So working on your weight and bumping up that FTP will help make you more competitive but not necessarily less painful :).

Hard part with racing is being focused during the warmer summer months. Those fun group rides are not always best for your development. Sometimes that time is better spent working on a specific goal/target than having fun hammering with the group.

For your winter I would recommend staying with the Trainer Road plan, doing that SST, and not worrying about logging loads of z2. You've been going for a few years now so you've been building base. As Masters we usually don't take a month off the bike and slowly need to build back up. You should be able to handle the sub-threshold load and then build from there. If your winter rides are indoor during the week make them count - do some intensity then log z2 hours on the weekends. Nordic ski, MTB, gravel, road - whatever the weather allows.

Just some random thoughts.

Andy

[Wayne77]

Thanks Andy. You nailed it in terms of what happens in the summer. I find it pretty easy to stick to a training plan during the off-season, but during the summer I (and a lot of other locals also training for the end of season 200 mile Lotoja Classic) just start to layer on lots of miles and big rides...leaving interval sessions behind. I still have to do several 120+ mile training rides in July and August, but I need to give myself adequate recovery and still work in high intensity intervals somehow.

Wayne,
I'm a year older and have similar goals. I primarily do stage races and try to get 3-5 in per year. I mix in some one day races and a couple crits for good measure too. I think you have the right idea for your training. You don't need to race a ton you just have to decide if you want to train for the races you care about. While I can't give you a run down like shovelhd I agree with some of his points.

I like your A races. I've done Crusher a couple times and know that if you want to win you'll need an FTP close to 4.8 w/kg. So working on your weight and bumping up that FTP will help make you more competitive but not necessarily less painful :).

Hard part with racing is being focused during the warmer summer months. Those fun group rides are not always best for your development. Sometimes that time is better spent working on a specific goal/target than having fun hammering with the group.

For your winter I would recommend staying with the Trainer Road plan, doing that SST, and not worrying about logging loads of z2. You've been going for a few years now so you've been building base. As Masters we usually don't take a month off the bike and slowly need to build back up. You should be able to handle the sub-threshold load and then build from there. If your winter rides are indoor during the week make them count - do some intensity then log z2 hours on the weekends. Nordic ski, MTB, gravel, road - whatever the weather allows.

Just some random thoughts.

Andy