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cgolvin
01-02-2018, 02:14 PM
Diagnosing creaks and squeaks remotely via text may be a fool's errand, still thought I'd seek out some wisdom. Setup is ~2011 Super Record 11 (white label) cranks and derailleurs, Chorus cassette and chain.

I have developed an annoying squeak in my drivetrain. I believe I've localized it to either the BB/crankset or RD pulley wheels since it only occurs under power and doing a thorough cassette/chain cleaning and re-lube fails to cure it. It seems more pronounced in the {small ring—larger cogs} combos but still present in others.

Unfortunately, I can't localize the sound with the bike on the stand since it apparently requires more force than I can deliver by hand.

My plan is to first remove the chain and lube the jockey wheels, and if that doesn't eliminate the sound then remove the cranks and re-lube the BB cups. I built it up in November and thought I was pretty careful applying grease in the cups at the time, but perhaps I should have been more generous.

If you pals have other potential suggestions for investigation I'd like to hear 'em since I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 40+ Nm, which means that crankset removal will then require a trip to the LBS.

Thanks

Ken Robb
01-02-2018, 02:17 PM
Your headline made me fear your CD Player was stuck playing Justin Bieber songs. I'm glad it's not THAT serious. :-)

AngryScientist
01-02-2018, 02:18 PM
what pedals?

have you ridden the bike putting down significant power with just rubber soled street shoes (sneakers) to see if the squeak is still there. pedal/cleat interfaces are infamous squeakers.

ltwtsculler91
01-02-2018, 02:23 PM
what pedals?

have you ridden the bike putting down significant power with just rubber soled street shoes (sneakers) to see if the squeak is still there. pedal/cleat interfaces are infamous squeakers.

This is a very good idea. I would also check the rear skewer and make sure it is clean and tight.

If those don't get anywhere, pulleys would be a good place to start for squeaks

josephr
01-02-2018, 02:31 PM
does the squeak happen the same place in the pedal stroke? shoe/crank arm rub? Cleat wear? I usually think of a 'squeak' would involve a metal/non-metal contact...

cgolvin
01-02-2018, 02:52 PM
what pedals?

have you ridden the bike putting down significant power with just rubber soled street shoes (sneakers) to see if the squeak is still there. pedal/cleat interfaces are infamous squeakers.

Speedplay Zero pedals, freshly lubed spindles and relatively recently lubed cleats. I haven't tried riding sans cleats, will put that on the list though my shoe/pedals combo has moved across several bikes without this noise so I'm doubtful that's the cause. Probably a good idea to re-apply some grease to the spindle threads anyway.

cgolvin
01-02-2018, 02:54 PM
does the squeak happen the same place in the pedal stroke? shoe/crank arm rub? Cleat wear? I usually think of a 'squeak' would involve a metal/non-metal contact...

Memory says no, and I'm sure there's no crank arm rub.

dddd
01-02-2018, 02:57 PM
I had a Colnago CX-0 act up like that, turned out to be the seatpost needed greasing.

2nd on the insufficiently-tight rear QR.

I've gotten rid of a similar squeak/creak by tightening the pedal into the crankarm with the proper/full amount of torque.

Do you ever get the squeak while riding off the saddle? That eliminates the saddle and post right there.

Pedal-to-cleat and cleat-to-shoe are both common sources of squeak or creak.

I would say that stem and bar are less common to be a source of noise than on older bikes.

Some noises get diagnosed by swapping parts like wheels, pedals, shoes or saddle+post, which is simpler when you have more than one bike and pair of shoes.

C40_guy
01-02-2018, 02:58 PM
My first thought was cleats too.

Tighten/swap the seatpost. Crap, dddd just beat me to that recommendation!

Squeaks and creaks travel sometimes. Very annoying...

Or turn the radio up to 11. You won't hear the squeak. :)

tailingloop
01-02-2018, 03:47 PM
Hello - I experienced a similar squeak not too long ago when applying force to the pedals. No force, no squeak. I suspected the PF30 BB, so I reinstalled, regreased, cleaned and lubed everything. After all that, I still hear the squeak. As a last resort, I swapped wheels. Squeak was gone. Turns out the freehub bearings were shot. I replaced the bearings and am now squeak free.

bigbill
01-02-2018, 03:52 PM
For the third time, seatpost. Take it out, wipe it clean, thin coat of whatever your setup requires and put it all back together.

Tickdoc
01-02-2018, 04:04 PM
I had this once and had to sell the bike.

No, seriously, it was the skewers.

I thought pedals, but nope. Then I thought BB, but nope. I took it to the shop and had two of the wrenches ride it around on carpet and they thought it was bb too, but nope It was the skewers.

Take out, grease them up a bit both on the length of the rod and the ends and see if that helps any.

NHAero
01-02-2018, 04:06 PM
On my CAAD10 when I got out of the saddle the squeak went away. After fooling around with the seatpost a bunch, I finally figured out it was the Selle Italia saddle. I could actually lube the spots where the rails enter the plastic, and for a day the sound went away.

Peter P.
01-02-2018, 04:15 PM
Swap out the entire rear wheel, if you can. That will eliminate the cassette, hub, and skewer in on shot, or isolate it to those three components.

That should at least help to narrow it down quickly.

oldpotatoe
01-02-2018, 04:34 PM
Diagnosing creaks and squeaks remotely via text may be a fool's errand, still thought I'd seek out some wisdom. Setup is ~2011 Super Record 11 (white label) cranks and derailleurs, Chorus cassette and chain.

I have developed an annoying squeak in my drivetrain. I believe I've localized it to either the BB/crankset or RD pulley wheels since it only occurs under power and doing a thorough cassette/chain cleaning and re-lube fails to cure it. It seems more pronounced in the {small ring—larger cogs} combos but still present in others.

Unfortunately, I can't localize the sound with the bike on the stand since it apparently requires more force than I can deliver by hand.

My plan is to first remove the chain and lube the jockey wheels, and if that doesn't eliminate the sound then remove the cranks and re-lube the BB cups. I built it up in November and thought I was pretty careful applying grease in the cups at the time, but perhaps I should have been more generous.

If you pals have other potential suggestions for investigation I'd like to hear 'em since I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 40+ Nm, which means that crankset removal will then require a trip to the LBS.

Thanks

A ‘squeak’? I’m guessing chain dry or pulleys, lotsa grease inside those. Doubt it’s the BB.

David Tollefson
01-02-2018, 04:38 PM
Similar thing here -- only out-of-the-saddle, putting down power, rhythmic with pedal stroke. Looked at cranks, pedals, chainring bolts, cleats... Turns out it was the rear skewer.

Vientomas
01-02-2018, 04:40 PM
On my CAAD10 when I got out of the saddle the squeak went away. After fooling around with the seatpost a bunch, I finally figured out it was the Selle Italia saddle. I could actually lube the spots where the rails enter the plastic, and for a day the sound went away.

Same issue here...Flite Genuine Gel. Lubed the area where the rails converge at the front of the saddle and enter the plastic shell with some Phil's tenacious oil. Squeak no more!

cgolvin
01-02-2018, 04:56 PM
Your headline made me fear your CD Player was stuck playing Justin Bieber songs. I'm glad it's not THAT serious. :-)

Sorry, what's a "CD Player"?:p

Mike Lopez
01-02-2018, 05:19 PM
Sorry, what's a "CD Player"?:p

That sounds like something I heard while trying to find a source to transfer 78 RPM records to modern sound files.

Mom was singer in the big band era, Barnett & Dorsey etc, and I've finally been able to hear her in action back in the '40s. Fun but kinda creepy in a way.

Good luck with your squeak...Lotsa good advice here....

cgolvin
01-02-2018, 05:34 PM
Thanks all, much appreciated. My ordered plan of attack:


Rear skewer;
Pedals/cleats;
Service RD pulleys (bonus chain cleaning);
Swap rear wheel (this would come earlier except doing so requires a 10s-11s cassette exchange).


I'm skeptical on the saddle as cause but that's in the cards anyway with a new one inbound.

Will report back.

P.S. on OT — I worked at Philips for a while and am intimately familiar with the Red, Yellow, and Green Books that are the CD standards, that was my own personal inside joke.

beeatnik
01-02-2018, 05:54 PM
If this is on your Serotta, in the gallery flickas, you were running a Thomson. Pull that sucker out and remove any grease, anti-seize or carbon paste. Insert dry as GMR and you should be golden.

cgolvin
01-02-2018, 06:23 PM
If this is on your Serotta, in the gallery flickas, you were running a Thomson. Pull that sucker out and remove any grease, anti-seize or carbon paste. Insert dry as GMR and you should be golden.

Yes, my Serotta, will give that a shot, thanks.

'dry as GMR', very funny, glad you didn't say 'dry as Casitas overlook (https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8my5bgnwbr1ij0/FeelTheBurn.jpg?dl=0)' (took that on Wednesday, on my ride up to SB)

David Kirk
01-02-2018, 06:27 PM
If it's a squeak and not a creak or a click/pop/knock then my best is on a dry bearing seal.

If it only happens when pedaling I'd rule out the hubs leaving the pedals, BB, pulleys and headset.

If it only happens while pedaling under load you can probably toss the idea of the pulleys as the load on those doesn't change with pedaling force.

dave

2LeftCleats
01-02-2018, 06:28 PM
Similar problem. I was convinced it was drive train too. Turns out seatpost wasn't torqued to spec

David Kirk
01-02-2018, 06:28 PM
Yes, my Serotta, will give that a shot, thanks.

'dry as GMR', very funny, glad you didn't say 'dry as Casitas overlook (https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8my5bgnwbr1ij0/FeelTheBurn.jpg?dl=0)' (took that on Wednesday, on my ride up to SB)

Is your Serotta steel or Ti?

dave

beeatnik
01-02-2018, 06:32 PM
Yes, my Serotta, will give that a shot, thanks.

'dry as GMR', very funny, glad you didn't say 'dry as Casitas overlook (https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8my5bgnwbr1ij0/FeelTheBurn.jpg?dl=0)' (took that on Wednesday, on my ride up to SB)

Yikes.

cgolvin
01-02-2018, 06:36 PM
Is your Serotta steel or Ti?

dave

Dave, it's a carbon-Ti Ottrott
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=214078

Ken Robb
01-02-2018, 08:10 PM
That sounds like something I heard while trying to find a source to transfer 78 RPM records to modern sound files.

Mom was singer in the big band era, Barnett & Dorsey etc, and I've finally been able to hear her in action back in the '40s. Fun but kinda creepy in a way.

Good luck with your squeak...Lotsa good advice here....
What was Mom's name back then?

bikinchris
01-02-2018, 08:27 PM
Did anyone ask yet if the noise happens both sitting and standing?

If you haven't lubed the jockey wheels yet, do that no matter what.

David Kirk
01-02-2018, 08:33 PM
Dave, it's a carbon-Ti Ottrott
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=214078

So it's got a Ti seat tube and it looks like you are running a clamp-on campy front der......I know it would sound nutty but pull the der off, clean the seat tube and der clamp well, put a light coat of grease on the inner surface of the clamp and bolt it all back in place.

And then enjoy the quiet.

dave


P.S. I could be wrong but this has fixed many mystery noises on those bikes.

dddd
01-03-2018, 11:51 AM
So it's got a Ti seat tube and it looks like you are running a clamp-on campy front der......I know it would sound nutty but pull the der off, clean the seat tube and der clamp well, put a light coat of grease on the inner surface of the clamp and bolt it all back in place.

And then enjoy the quiet.

dave


P.S. I could be wrong but this has fixed many mystery noises on those bikes.



I would maybe test that theory with a drop of WD40 first, seems like possibly a lot of unnecessary work on a bike that will never suffer corrosion on the seat tube.

David Kirk
01-03-2018, 01:01 PM
I would maybe test that theory with a drop of WD40 first, seems like possibly a lot of unnecessary work on a bike that will never suffer corrosion on the seat tube.

It's not corrosion that causes the issue - it's galling. Both the Ti seat tube and aluminum clamp gall easily and over time the flex of the system causes the two parts to rub off on each other. A drop or two of oil probably won't cure it and I don't really see undoing a single bolt and wiping things down and putting it back together as a lot of work. If it takes 5 minutes in total that would be a surprise.

Back in the day when we released the Legend Ti we had a lot of complaints out BB noise and it took a lot of time to figure out it wasn't the BB at all but it was the front der clamp. The Shimano adapter was the worst offender (being tall it rub on the seat tube more) but we saw it with most any der after some time passed. We issued a service bulletin at the time and the number of issues dropped to almost nothing.

If one takes the front der off and there are any areas where the seat tube has a smooth and glassy black area that's the source of the noise.

dave

Mike Lopez
01-03-2018, 01:34 PM
What was Mom's name back then?

Hi Ken. Her stage name was Kimmy Stevens. Along with the previously mentioned band leaders she was also a member of a group called the Pied Pipers.

PM me with and address and I'll send you a sound bite and some amusing pics.

Happy new year!

cgolvin
01-03-2018, 03:29 PM
Yesterday afternoon while on a boring conference call I was able to reproduce the squeak on the stand, and I'm 99% sure the RD jockey wheels are the culprit (one "I was right" birthday present for Old Potatoe).

Currently disassembled for lubrication, fingers crossed. Thanks to all my pals.

dddd
01-04-2018, 11:47 AM
The pulleys, yes, especially the top guide pulley on Shimano Ultegra rear derailers with a dry ceramic bushing.

I've had to decide what to lube these with, since Shimano specifies these be run dry!

I've used pure silicone oil, which I thought would be friendly to the rubber seals and spin freely, and of course it worked.

dddd
01-04-2018, 12:14 PM
It's not corrosion that causes the issue - it's galling. Both the Ti seat tube and aluminum clamp gall easily and over time the flex of the system causes the two parts to rub off on each other. A drop or two of oil probably won't cure it and I don't really see undoing a single bolt and wiping things down and putting it back together as a lot of work. If it takes 5 minutes in total that would be a surprise.

Back in the day when we released the Legend Ti we had a lot of complaints out BB noise and it took a lot of time to figure out it wasn't the BB at all but it was the front der clamp. The Shimano adapter was the worst offender (being tall it rub on the seat tube more) but we saw it with most any der after some time passed. We issued a service bulletin at the time and the number of issues dropped to almost nothing.

If one takes the front der off and there are any areas where the seat tube has a smooth and glassy black area that's the source of the noise.

dave

Wow, that sounds like an example of what sometimes happens at the handlebar clamp or between the seat tube and seatpost, I've seen that burnishing there.
I wouldn't have expected a frame's seattube to flex enough to produce the creaking, but I guess titanium still tends to be a bit more flexible, and that is a high-stress location under pedaling forces.
I googled "galling" to see the breadth of it's definition, and I believe you are using the correct term to describe this sort of thing. I didn't know "galling" could arise with such different materials in contact with one another, but corrosion, pressure and friction could definitely come together to produce it in this location. I've even had a pedal creak until I more fully tightened the steel spindle into the alloy crankarm, and have used a drop of oil at many an old handlebar stem clamp.