The Real Story Of The 7-Eleven Team Bikes

[Veloo]

Came across this while searching for random Serotta info.

https://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/the-real-story-of-the-7-eleven-team-bikes

[peanutgallery]

Moral of the story, when Och needs a buck your teeth are in play. Nothing new there, he's always been a schmuck

Thank the Gods for Ben, Ugo, Slawta and Eddy taking pity. Och could learn a lesson or 2 from a master in the art of class

[clyde the point]

Boyer hated the Serrotas due to breaking several of them, I remember him commenting.

[parris]

I could be wrong but i heard that the TrueTemper tubing was the issue with the team frames.

[carpediemracing]

A friend that rode lower level pros had maybe three True Temper Giordanas fail under him in a year. Based on what I just read it makes sense - very thin/light tubing, failures, and by the end of the year the riders simply didn't trust the frames.

[tuscanyswe]

I could be wrong but i heard that the TrueTemper tubing was the issue with the team frames.

This is what i remember to. Had nothing to do with putting them together as far as i know.

[thunderworks]

One of the 7-Eleven bikes is hanging as a display in a bike shop in Davis, CA.

[oldpotatoe]

This is what i remember to. Had nothing to do with putting them together as far as i know.

Well, maybe. I think the welders, when they actually see how thin the tubes were, and then after they were done, how they came together, I'm guessing they had their doubts. It was more than a few frames that cracked, as Roll said.

[fignon's barber]

Well, maybe. I think the welders, when they actually see how thin the tubes were, and then after they were done, how they came together, I'm guessing they had their doubts. It was more than a few frames that cracked, as Roll said.


Like Serrota alluded to, a craftsman is ultimately responsible for what comes out of his shop, and pays the price. He says he should have stood up and said "no go".

[fignon's barber]

Loved Ron Kiefel's input in the article. He wasn't quite sure it was a Raleigh he road in '83, but remembered exactly what he had for lunch after the factory visit. That is PRO. RK was awesome.

[happycampyer]

This topic has been hashed and rehashed here many times. Here is a great thread on the topic:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=126276

The original blog post that started the tread is gone, but there are sufficient quotes to fill in some gaps.

[bigbill]

Well, maybe. I think the welders, when they actually see how thin the tubes were, and then after they were done, how they came together, I'm guessing they had their doubts. It was more than a few frames that cracked, as Roll said.

An old team mechanic saw my fillet brazed GT and commented "holy ****, that thing hasn't broken?" "Oh, it's the 853 version, you're good". I've got a True Temper version to go on the wall.

[CDM]

strange

[El Chaba]

That's a good read. I have been struck for years by how many pros did their job without much of any knowledge about the equipment they used. It makes some sense....The bikes are furnished and maintained by the team so they have very little responsibility or ownership of them and are somewhat detached as long as they perform. The interesting part comes as these pros are still riding and look back at their careers almost from a third person point of view. At some point it's as if they realise that they were a big deal and seem to almost develop a renewed interest in their past from a different viewpoint. THEN they have some interest in the equipment. I had a nice conversation once with Paul Sherwen about his Motobecanes...and I know that Phil Anderson and Stephen Roche are both interested in adding a proper Peugeot to their collections....

[bigbill]

We used to host an early season crit in South Carolina. It paid big so we'd get our share of pros. I had Greg Oravetz staying at my house and he was riding for Coors Light. He had a steel Serotta with a big dent in the top tube but it was straight. I put his bike up in my workstand and tuned it up but noticed the tires were shot. He did the race on Conti Super Sport Ultras wire bead and finished in the pack.

The next year was the Saab Team with Andy Bishop, Declan Lonegan, some McCormicks, and Dave Mann. They were riding DeRosa Neo Primatos. They all had threaded carbon forks except Mann's bike. I asked why and Dave said it was because he was riding a 62 and there wasn't a carbon fork for him. The other guys suddenly noticed they had carbon forks. To me, it just looked like the mechanic said "here, ride this".

[ultraman6970]

Pros ride whatever they give them, they dont complain about the equipment either. In lower ranks of cycling probably the bikes are better because those guys sponsor themselves many times, the other situation is that at pro level they know that is not about the bike at all, at lower ranks you could like have an advantage with better equipment but after certain levels a bike and equipement is pretty much almost not noticeable, guys will do 45 km/h in a steel bike w/o any problems if the peloton was using only steel 7 speed stuff.

Between you and me would love to see the come back of classic steel d/t sifters pro races.

[John H.]

Back in those days you could also race on a custom steel frame and/or just get your favorite frame re-painted.
No one would be the wiser.

Nowadays that doesn't fly.

[torquer]

Speaking of pros on "custom" bikes repainted with sponsors' logos, I recall Tyler Hamilton riding a Parlee painted like a CSC-team Look, and a certain Texan riding a Lightspeed before Trek built him a proper TT bike. They insisted it was a "prototype"... Both of these were in the early aughts.

Anyone have more any more recent examples?

[ltwtsculler91]

Speaking of pros on "custom" bikes repainted with sponsors' logos, I recall Tyler Hamilton riding a Parlee painted like a CSC-team Look, and a certain Texan riding a Lightspeed before Trek built him a proper TT bike. They insisted it was a "prototype"... Both of these were in the early aughts.

Anyone have more any more recent examples?

I think this era died once all the big names went to different shaped tubes and crazy fat BBs on the latest round of bikes. With the earlier carbon bikes the relatively "normal" shapes meant that you could head to someone like Parlee or Crumpton and have them put together a bike that was close enough from 5 feet away to pass as the sponsors bike. Now its somewhat easy for the trained eye to spot the different brands characteristics from a few feet that getting something passable would require A LOT of engineering on the part of a frame builder and create a lot of problems with the team's bike sponsor.

[torquer]

I understand the difficulties nowadays. I'm wondering which was the last of the dinosaurs.
Also, who was on a (non-team) Cervelo TT bike with track-ends whose team mechanic was totally flummoxed by a mid-race wheel change?
Was that the non-disappearing twin as well?

[jemdet]

Speaking of pros on "custom" bikes repainted with sponsors' logos, I recall Tyler Hamilton riding a Parlee painted like a CSC-team Look, and a certain Texan riding a Lightspeed before Trek built him a proper TT bike. They insisted it was a "prototype"... Both of these were in the early aughts.

Anyone have more any more recent examples?

Jan Ullrich. He used a Walser TT bike in his Bianchi days. He also used "Campagnolo Boras" which were just rebadged Lightweights.

See also Lance and Lightweight wheels. If my memory is correct, he actually used a set of Lightweight wheels without a brake track on the uphill time trail to Alpe D'Huez.

[El Chaba]

It's not as common a phenomenon as it used to be, but let's just say that companies such as Sarto and Cyfac would probably not be in business today were it not for the pro orders.....

[Bruce K]

Lance was a Steve HED guy.

Lots of one if a kind nd stuff got flown to France during the TdF

BK

[Kontact]

Great article.

Does anyone know just how thin the problematic True Temper tubesets were?

[donevwil]

Great article.

Does anyone know just how thin the problematic True Temper tubesets were?

Here are tubing specs (http://equusbicycle.com/bike/truetemper/index.html) from ~'87. The RC tubeset is mentioned as having been used on 7-Eleven bikes, but I'd guess the RCX tubeset was used on at least a few or maybe initially.

[David Kirk]

Great article.

Does anyone know just how thin the problematic True Temper tubesets were?


If my memory serves me properly the True Temper tubes were thin but not outrageously so. The problem with the tubing was not how thin it was but instead that it was seamed and poorly done. So add a bit of heat and stress it some and the seam pops in a perfectly straight line up and down the tube.

This was before my time at Serotta but I saw the aftermath of it with broken bikes hanging around in the attic. IMO it was a tough row for Serotta to hoe. They are given tubes and told to use them and they have to assume that the tube maker has properly tested the product before letting it out into the world. Serotta could have made bikes with the stuff and insisted on testing them over a long term to be sure they were safe but of course this would have made the whole thing grind to a halt and no doubt someone else would have been willing to take over the bike making duties from Serotta. So Serotta used the stuff and it was junk and Serotta was the one that got the black eye from it....and understandably so. But Serotta would be hurt much harder than TT would ever be. TT just needed to cough up some new tubes to make good on it but Serotta had invested all the time and labor into building the bikes and then they needed to do it all over again to make new bikes. I don't know how to change this for the better but the same situation exists today. If I buy a tube and build it into a bike and invest a week of time and no small amount of money for paint and then the tube fails the only thing the tube maker needs to do is give me a new $50 tube. The builder is out a few thousand bucks but the tube maker is out $50.

dave

[happycampyer]

Thanks, Dave, for chiming in. I would argue that the damage was far worse than the sunk cost of having to make replacement frames—the episode haunts Serotta even after the company is gone. If I recall correctly, you pointed out in a blog post or two how the experience led Serotta to be somewhat fanatical about testing, and how you were instrumental in designing a number of those tests. Ironically, I wonder if later Serottas would have been so carefully designed if the company had not been stung by the frame failures.

Btw, I saw one of your stainless steel lugged frames being built up for a customer at Signature—what an exquisite machine!

[David Kirk]

Thanks, Dave, for chiming in. I would argue that the damage was far worse than the sunk cost of having to make replacement frames—the episode haunts Serotta even after the company is gone. If I recall correctly, you pointed out in a blog post or two how the experience led Serotta to be somewhat fanatical about testing, and how you were instrumental in designing a number of those tests. Ironically, I wonder if later Serottas would have been so carefully designed if the company had not been stung by the frame failures.

Btw, I saw one of your stainless steel lugged frames being built up for a customer at Signature—what an exquisite machine!

I couldn't agree more.....and I didn't mean to say that the cost of building replacement bikes was the main cost to the company. It was the out of pocket short term cost at the time but the damage to the brand was serious, long term and ongoing.

I don't recall Ben and I ever talking directly about testing of new product in the wake of the team bike failures but no doubt that was part of the equation and part of the reason Ben was willing to spend more time and money testing than most anyone else did at the time. We took product testing very seriously and spent a butt load of time and money doing it.....and I think the bikes we built were better for it. I also think that the lessons learned in many cases laid the foundation of the types of testing seen at many midsize and large companies at this point.

And....of course.....thanks for the kind words.

dave

[Kontact]

Here are tubing specs (http://equusbicycle.com/bike/truetemper/index.html) from ~'87. The RC tubeset is mentioned as having been used on 7-Eleven bikes, but I'd guess the RCX tubeset was used on at least a few or maybe initially.

Thanks for posting that!

RC doesn't appear to be exotic with .89/.64/.89 tubing. But the RCX is .74/.53/.74. I think 531SL was .8/.5/.8. All of the .7 butt stuff I've seen has been at least heat treated, and most of it is air hardening. I don't know whether RCX was heat treated, but it seems like that would have been something they advertised, so maybe they pushed the lower limit of non-heat treated tubing just using alloying, and that didn't buy them the extra .06 over 531SL.


Hey Dave. Great post. Always illuminating.

[yashcha]

Speaking of pros on "custom" bikes repainted with sponsors' logos, I recall Tyler Hamilton riding a Parlee painted like a CSC-team Look, and a certain Texan riding a Lightspeed before Trek built him a proper TT bike. They insisted it was a "prototype"... Both of these were in the early aughts.

Anyone have more any more recent examples?

Sadly the most recent example I can remember is almost 20 years ago of Zulle, Virenque, and Dufaux riding custom Litespeed vortex frames disguised as Peugeot steel frames in the 97 tour. Being an easily influenced 20 year old at the time, my lust for ti frames became an issue.

[Veloo]

Glad I posted this. Wouldn't have found out all these secrets under the paint.

[El Chaba]

I should clarify my opinion in an earlier post... I am struck that there are pros that don't have much knowledge about the equipment they use. Which is not to say that applies to all pros or even a majority...It's just surprising to me that there are some who function in the sport at such a high level and not have preferences and opinions on equipment. Of course, there are the equipment geeks....I read an interview (about ten years old) with Bernard Thevenet about his Tour winning bikes (1975,1977). He knew about every nut and bolt. The same is true for Stephen Roche (nicest guy to have ever raced a bicycle).

[oldpotatoe]

I should clarify my opinion in an earlier post... I am struck that there are pros that don't have much knowledge about the equipment they use. Which is not to say that applies to all pros or even a majority...It's just surprising to me that there are some who function in the sport at such a high level and not have preferences and opinions on equipment. Of course, there are the equipment geeks....I read an interview (about ten years old) with Bernard Thevenet about his Tour winning bikes (1975,1977). He knew about every nut and bolt. The same is true for Stephen Roche (nicest guy to have ever raced a bicycle).

Andy Hampsten also knew a lot, tried a lot..like LH DT shifter with STI on right.
And also 'famously' riding a repainted 'LandShark' after more than a few serottas broke.
Eddy Gargus also..I build some one day, uber light wheels for him that he used once('Might' have been Mt Evans)'.

And for Angry, right below..I have been lucky to work on more than a few 'pro's' bikes and by a large margin, they just wanted it to work, no surprises. They sang the sponsor's praises when asked but they just wanted to be reliable, didn't really care who made it, what name on the stuff..If it didn't work, they made sure the team big boys knew it..as was the case with BMC and Cannondale a few years back.

[AngryScientist]

I should clarify my opinion in an earlier post... I am struck that there are pros that don't have much knowledge about the equipment they use. .

i am not.

the primary piece of equipment i use for my work, to make a living is my laptop. i use it every day, i travel all over the country with it, and it's never too far from my sight. if it were broken, it would cause my significant grief.

other than the fact that it works, and allows me to accomplish tasks i need to accomplish - i know just about zero about it, or computers in general. it's literally just a tool, an appliance to me.

i would think as long as the pro athlete has a bike under him that works the way he wants it to, he needs to know little of the details.

[El Chaba]

i am not.

the primary piece of equipment i use for my work, to make a living is my laptop. i use it every day, i travel all over the country with it, and it's never too far from my sight. if it were broken, it would cause my significant grief.

other than the fact that it works, and allows me to accomplish tasks i need to accomplish - i know just about zero about it, or computers in general. it's literally just a tool, an appliance to me.

i would think as long as the pro athlete has a bike under him that works the way he wants it to, he needs to know little of the details.

It's definitely an interesting case of "ownership psychology"....

[Clancy]

Moral of the story, when Och needs a buck your teeth are in play. Nothing new there, he's always been a schmuck

Thank the Gods for Ben, Ugo, Slawta and Eddy taking pity. Och could learn a lesson or 2 from a master in the art of class

Not sure how you got this out of one brief sentence in the story. Elaborate?

[choke]

Speaking of pros on "custom" bikes repainted with sponsors' logos, I recall Tyler Hamilton riding a Parlee painted like a CSC-team Look, and a certain Texan riding a Lightspeed before Trek built him a proper TT bike. They insisted it was a "prototype"... Both of these were in the early aughts.

Anyone have more any more recent examples?Not more recent but definitely interesting IMO...

One summer while hanging out in Dario's shop I rifled through a couple of boxes of spec sheets on various Team letterheads. Of particular interest were the ones with the following names on them: Indurain, Pantani (Carerra letter head), Lemond, Chiapucci, The (Beat)Zberg brothers (Carerra) , Cipo etc, etc. https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=479853&postcount=11

On the floor of his shop, dusty and out of the way, is a box. In this box are all, or almost all, of the build sheets of bikes he�s built for racers. Their names are on the sheets. Three words, kids: oh my god. You have no freakin� idea who Dario has built bikes for. Yet this box is old, falling apart, a bit moldy, and rarely, it seems, ever looked at. I can�t imagine that there is another pair of hands in the world that has personally built more bikes for more great racers than Dario�s. Yet, yet, yet he showed me the box only, only, only because I asked. He�s not a boastful dude. He�s a genius but you�d only know it from his bikes, not his words, not his attitude, not his very modest simple shop. His hands do his talking for him. He once built 27 bikes in one year for Marco pantani, as Marco searched for something illusive, something even he didn�t know what it was. https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=220053&postcount=1

[Michael Maddox]

Hah! The closest I ever got was putting our team-sponsor's lycra helmet cover over a Specialized beer cooler. But those Zephyrs were UGLY.

I suspect there's a LOT more of this skullduggery that we will never hear about.

[CaptStash]

Speaking of pros on "custom" bikes repainted with sponsors' logos, I recall Tyler Hamilton riding a Parlee painted like a CSC-team Look, and a certain Texan riding a Lightspeed before Trek built him a proper TT bike. They insisted it was a "prototype"... Both of these were in the early aughts.

Anyone have more any more recent examples?

Time Trial bikes were rebranded well into the 200's. Javelin made thelion's share of them. I have a 2005 Time branded Javelin TT frame lurking around my basement. I think some of the first few Armstrong era TDF TT bikes were Javelins as well.

CaptStash....

[buddybikes]

I picked up the 7-11 guys in Boston for a race once, they were coming down from Canada. The wheels were separate from the rest of the bikes, but the bikes themselves just basically tossed in a bag and put on the plane, certainly not like nice traveling cases like today. Must of been some work for the mechanics to get things adjusted after airline travel.