Gravel Wheel Idea: XTR M9000 Hubs + HG800 Cassette

[pakora]

I've found virtually no discussion of the latest XTR hubs (M9000 series) anywhere on the net separate from their prebuilt wheelsets. From the looks of them, they're a great value, light as or lighter than the gold standards of "nice" hubs (e.g. DT 240s). My experience with older top end Shimano hubs (XTR 965, DA7800) is that they're the best intersection of performance, reliability and longevity if you don't have weight weenie standards.

Obviously one drawback is having to run a mountain cassette, but given the ubiquity of people running a 11-32 cassette for road/gravel, the HG-800 mountain cassette has an 11-34 tooth count - call it the same. I'm thinking of building up a pair of wheels for gravel duty with a wideish rim (20-24 internal width) that can double without blinking as mountain wheels.

Anyone doing something similar? Thoughts as to why not?

(PS: Now that all of my "nice" bikes are 15/142x12 TA, I'm not concerned about not being able to convert to other axles for the immediate future)

[sales guy]

I built a set up for someone. They used a mountain cassette, but the XTR hubs are a fantastic hub. Also did some in years past for myself and others. Labyrinth seals, oversized axles, look good. Roll very smooth. I really believe Shimano hubs are underrated given how many other options are out there. But for a standard ball bearing hub, they are as good as many other sealed cartridge bearing hubs.

Go for it.

[pakora]

My experience with the hubs that cost about as much is this stuff happens:

Hope: Bearings and freehub trashed after a wet mtb race
WI: Amazing hub, but fiddly set up can result in early bearing destruction (ask me how I know
DT Swiss: $100 upgrade to get to a standard schmancy engagement level (over stock 18t ratchet) when it's already a premium price (240 anyway)

Sealed bearing schmealed bearing

[bigbill]

My original choice for a gravel wheelset was XTR, Garro recommended them, I liked the look and knew it would be a high quality hubset, but there were none available at the time (May-June 2017) so I ended up with WI XMR hubs with WTB KOM I23 rims.

[Gummee]

Hard to go wrong with something you can rebuild...

I've liked all the high-end Shimano stuff I've ever had.

M

[simplemind]

OP, maybe I'm confused but would you be using an XT or XTR derailleur/cassette on your gravel bike? If so I think it gets a bit problematic if you want to use a drop bar, right?
If you could use an XT/XTR cassette on those mtb hubs, and still use a road shifter/derailleur, that would be great, but I'm not sure you can. :confused:

[GOTHBROOKS]

i have an older 9spd king rear hub that only accepts mtb splines. i threw an 11-42 slx 11spd rear cassette and mated it to a long cage apex rear der and some force cx22 shifters and it works fine.
i think you need to mess with those wolftooth roadlinks and tanpans if you wanna run something similar with full shimano.

[sandyrs]

OP, maybe I'm confused but would you be using an XT or XTR derailleur/cassette on your gravel bike? If so I think it gets a bit problematic if you want to use a drop bar, right?
If you could use an XT/XTR cassette on those mtb hubs, and still use a road shifter/derailleur, that would be great, but I'm not sure you can. :confused:

You can use a medium cage Ultegra derailleur with the 11-34 cassette. You can always use a wolftooth roadlink with that same derailleur and use an 11-40 cassette.

[simplemind]

You can use a medium cage Ultegra derailleur with the 11-34 cassette. You can always use a wolftooth roadlink with that same derailleur and use an 11-40 cassette.

I thought there was a slightly different spacing between cogs on road vs mtb...no?

[sandyrs]

I thought there was a slightly different spacing between cogs on road vs mtb...no?

Not with 11 speed.

[pakora]

Correct, the spacing between cogs is the same, and there's exactly one cassette that allows you to have roadish cassettes for 11sp mountain on a mountain freehub:

http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/road/drivetrain/cassettes0/cs-hg800-11.html

(Shimano 11sp mountain cassettes are compatible with any 11s Shimano road FH)

[Clancy]

I built up a set of gravel wheels using the Shimano CX75 hubs which look to be equivalent to Ultegra. 11 speed and very nice looking. Only drawback is the hubs are QR only.

I have a lot of respect for Shimano hubs, high quality, easy to adjust, long lasting and inexpensive.

I've got three sets of the Dura Ace wheels for my roadbikes. The hubs roll better today than when new.

Shimano hubs are hard to beat.

And does anyone make a better QR? Nope!

[NYCfixie]

The spacing between individual cogs for Shimano Road and MTB 11 speed cassettes is the same. The issue is how the cassette fits on a freehub. For some reason, Shimano made MTB 11 speed cassettes fit in the same space as a 10 speed cassette but Road 11 speed cassettes need more room than 10 and only fit on Road 11 speed freehubs.

So...

- 10 and 11 speed MTB cassettes can fit on 11 speed Road freehubs.
- 10 speed Road cassettes can fit on 11 speed MTB freehubs.
- 11 speed Road cassettes cannot fit on 10 speed MTB freehubs.


Still with me?
- Then Shimano wanted to make bigger cogs available for Road (i.e. Gravel Bikes) so they came up with the 11x34 Road 11 speed cassette that fits on a 10 speed MTB freehub but is "classified" as an 11 speed Road cassette.


Make sense?


Not with 11 speed.

Correct, the spacing between cogs is the same, and there's exactly one cassette that allows you to have roadish cassettes for 11sp mountain on a mountain freehub:

http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/road/drivetrain/cassettes0/cs-hg800-11.html

(Shimano 11sp mountain cassettes are compatible with any 11s Shimano road FH)

[simplemind]

The spacing between individual cogs for Shimano Road and MTB 11 speed cassettes is the same. The issue is how the cassette fits on a freehub. For some reason, Shimano made MTB 11 speed cassettes fit in the same space as a 10 speed cassette but Road 11 speed cassettes need more room than 10 and only fit on Road 11 speed freehubs.

So...

- 10 and 11 speed MTB cassettes can fit on 11 speed Road freehubs.
- 10 speed Road cassettes can fit on 11 speed MTB freehubs.
- 11 speed Road cassettes cannot fit on 10 speed MTB freehubs.


Still with me?
- Then Shimano wanted to make bigger cogs available for Road (i.e. Gravel Bikes) so they came up with the 11x34 Road 11 speed cassette that fits on a 10 speed MTB freehub but is "classified" as an 11 speed Road cassette.


Make sense?

Good "splaining"! Now, will a SRAM PG-1170 11-36 road cassette fit on the Shimano 11sp mtb (XTR) freehub?

[sandyrs]

Good "splaining"! Now, will a SRAM PG-1170 11-36 road cassette fit on the Shimano 11sp mtb (XTR) freehub?

It will not. Sorry! You’d have to go down to 11-34 or up to 11-40.

[NYCfixie]

If the SRAM is "Shimano Road 11" spacing then it will not fit on a Shimano 10/11 MTB hub/freehub which is the same freehub spacing as Shimano 10 speed Road/MTB freehub spacing (see above).

Good "splaining"! Now, will a SRAM PG-1170 11-36 road cassette fit on the Shimano 11sp mtb (XTR) freehub?

[NYCfixie]

It will not. Sorry! You’d have to go down to 11-34 or up to 11-40.

...as long as the 11-34 and 11-40 are Shimano 10/11 speed MTB freehub spacing.

[simplemind]

It will not. Sorry! You’d have to go down to 11-34 or up to 11-40.

If the SRAM is "Shimano Road 11" spacing then it will not fit on a Shimano 10/11 MTB hub/freehub which is the same freehub spacing as Shimano 10 speed Road/MTB freehub spacing (see above).

God this is confusing! :help:
I am running the PG1170 36 on my Ultegra Di2 11sp freehub, but you're saying it will not fit the XT/XTR freehub, right?

[yashcha]

Do they have a 12mm thru axle option for the front hub? That would be perfect.

[sandyrs]

God this is confusing! :help:
I am running the PG1170 36 on my Ultegra Di2 11sp freehub, but you're saying it will not fit the XT/XTR freehub, right?

Yes, that’s right, it won’t fit. You need the HG800 11-34 11 speed cassette or an SLX M7000/XT M8000/XTR M9000 11-40.

[NYCfixie]

God this is confusing! :help:
I am running the PG1170 36 on my Ultegra Di2 11sp freehub, but you're saying it will not fit the XT/XTR freehub, right?
No, it will not fit.

Yes, that’s right, it won’t fit. You need the HG800 11-34 11 speed cassette or an SLX M7000/XT M8000/XTR M9000 11-40.
Correct.



The short version is:
- 11 speed MTB Shimano cassettes will fit on 11 speed Road Shimano hubs (assuming the rear derailleur can accommodate it)
- 11 speed Road Shimano cassettes will not fit on 11 speed MTB Shimano hubs.
- The exception to the rule is the 11x34 Shimano HG-800 cassette because it is classified as an "11 speed Shimano Road" cassette and sold as an option to the R8000 group but it has "Shimano 10/11 MTB freehub spacing"



Explained another way.....
MTB is 135mm OLD
Road is 130mm OLD
And remember that chainlines are different.

8/9/10 speeds were Road/MTB cross compatible because the freehubs were the same even though chainlines were not perfect when you mixed and matched 135MTB with 130Road.

10 speed MTB freehub stayed with the same spacing when 11 speed was introduced.

11 speed Road freehub had to change to fit 11 speed Road cassettes and they also changed the OLD to 131mm - did not really make a big deal about it because anyone can squeeze 131mm OLD hubs into 130mm rear end frame.

Q: How do you solve the problem that all these "roadies" now want bigger than the 11x32 casette that Shimano offered with Ultegra 6800 for their "gravel bikes"?

A: You create an 11x34 "Road" non-series HG-800 cassette that is spaced 10/11 speed MTB hub and will work on both 11 speed "Road" Hubs and 10/11 speed "MTB" hubs.

* The issue is now you have "MTB'ers" who want to use the 11x34 "Road" 11 speed cassette and were previously told that they cannot use Road 11 cassettes because they do not fit.

[TheseGoTo11]

FWIW, I've had good luck running 10 cogs from an 11 speed road cassette on both MTB and older road freehubs designed for 10 speed cassettes. There are plenty of threads out there explaining the details, but basically it involves removing a cog and placing a cog spacer behind the cassette. For example, if you want to run that PG-1170 11-36 and can get by without the 11T cog, you might be able to simply drop it from the cassette, add a spacer behind it and adjust the limit screws on your rear derailleur to accommodate the cassette width. Dropping other cogs might make more sense depending on the size of your chainrings.