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Tickdoc
12-21-2017, 05:18 AM
I knew it. You can try to explain it from an engineering standpoint, but you cannot explain why every fall when a new device is introduced why your old device suddenly slows down.

sumbitches.

https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-slows-down-older-iphone-battery-issues/#

Cicli
12-21-2017, 05:33 AM
I need a new iPhone. Just because.

fa63
12-21-2017, 06:14 AM
My iPhone 5s is still going strong. The battery life sucks, but haven’t noticed it slow down.

oldpotatoe
12-21-2017, 06:21 AM
I knew it. You can try to explain it from an engineering standpoint, but you cannot explain why every fall when a new device is introduced why your old device suddenly slows down.

sumbitches.

https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-slows-down-older-iphone-battery-issues/#

I'm sure the same is true for every 'smart' phone..just Apple says so..:)
At least they don't explode.:eek:

dgauthier
12-21-2017, 06:22 AM
My iPhone 4S (purchased in January 2012!) is still going strong. End-of-day battery life is still around 40-60%. Still on iOS 7. Works better than my wife's 6S running iOS 10. Steve Jobs is dead.

CunegoFan
12-21-2017, 06:33 AM
I knew it. You can try to explain it from an engineering standpoint, but you cannot explain why every fall when a new device is introduced why your old device suddenly slows down.


That tinfoil hat is on a bit too tight.

verticaldoug
12-21-2017, 06:41 AM
My daughter was complaining about how slow her old Iphone was, and we upgraded to a 8s. I guess I will join the next class action suit which probably is announced later today.

schwa86
12-21-2017, 06:42 AM
My 6 was slowing down, battery crashing rapidly at end of day. 20 minutes and $45 later at the iPhone repair guy guy down the street for a battery swap, and all is well again.

happycampyer
12-21-2017, 08:00 AM
My wife and daughter were having the same problem, which is why I didn't update my phone to the latest operating system (which seems to trigger the problem, or make it worse if it already exists). It does seem suspicious in a VW sort of way.

Mikej
12-21-2017, 08:38 AM
That’s total cr@p they do that - I have a 6se and it’s new from April 17 and it is slowing down- I can’t believe the battery is going bad already-“apple claims it’s for the best experience possible “ total horse $h@t

saab2000
12-21-2017, 08:41 AM
Steve Jobs is dead.

This is true. The software updates mostly don't improve the user experience. They make it more complex.

I'm a big podcast guy and the podcast format that was included a few updates ago stinks.

And no this isn't a conspiracy with tin foil hats. It's easily documented and Apple even admits they are doing it. I think their excuse is total and complete BS.

My 5S is old and I'll be the first to admit it but it should be my choice to upgrade to a new model, not something forced upon me because Apple thinks it's time.

This is worse than planned obsolescence.

How would (will?) owners react if Tesla decides it's time for the owners to get a new car so they reduce functionality via a software update? That's exactly what Apple is doing.

benb
12-21-2017, 08:52 AM
Definitely a balance... would you rather your phone slows down somewhat and lasts all day or would you rather it's dead at 11AM in the morning because it's been burning away with the CPU clocked up to its maximum clock setting?

Androids all try to manage this dynamically too...

And it also helps avoid battery damage that can cause fires.

I had a battery failure on a macbook pro at work a couple months ago.. it didn't burst & burn but it was well on it's way and was pretty scary.. it bent the metal case of the laptop like it was a tin can.

weisan
12-21-2017, 08:55 AM
Definitely a balance... would you rather your phone slows down somewhat and lasts all day or would you rather it's dead at 11AM in the morning because it's been burning away with the CPU clocked up to its maximum clock setting?

Androids all try to manage this dynamically too...

And it also helps avoid battery damage that can cause fires.

I had a battery failure on a macbook pro at work a couple months ago.. it didn't burst & burn but it was well on it's way and was pretty scary.. it bent the metal case of the laptop like it was a tin can.

Good point.

Not everything can be explained away by the Conspiracy Theory.

saab2000
12-21-2017, 09:02 AM
Definitely a balance... would you rather your phone slows down somewhat and lasts all day or would you rather it's dead at 11AM in the morning because it's been burning away with the CPU clocked up to its maximum clock setting?

Androids all try to manage this dynamically too...

And it also helps avoid battery damage that can cause fires.

I had a battery failure on a macbook pro at work a couple months ago.. it didn't burst & burn but it was well on it's way and was pretty scary.. it bent the metal case of the laptop like it was a tin can.

I would most like my iPhone 5S to work as close as realistically possible to the way it worked when it was new. I completely understand that battery life will change and degrade over time. But I would like the software updates be specific to each model and if that means I don't get the latest and greatest on the newest models I'm 100% OK with that.

Frankly, if all they ever did were incremental security updates that would be fine.

Rant over. This is not a gigantic deal and I need a new phone soon anyway. I'm an Apple guy but I do agree that Steve Jobs' mantra of defining the products by the end user experience has been discarded. Now they seem to be trying to stay even with their competition through gimmickry rather than defining the market.

MattTuck
12-21-2017, 09:04 AM
Definitely a balance... would you rather your phone slows down somewhat and lasts all day or would you rather it's dead at 11AM in the morning because it's been burning away with the CPU clocked up to its maximum clock setting?

Androids all try to manage this dynamically too...

And it also helps avoid battery damage that can cause fires.

I had a battery failure on a macbook pro at work a couple months ago.. it didn't burst & burn but it was well on it's way and was pretty scary.. it bent the metal case of the laptop like it was a tin can.

ben, your probably know more about this than most. But there seems to have been a shift over time. Early on in the time of computers, storage and processing power was very limited, so there was a real push to have efficient and economic programs that did not utilize system resources unnecessarily. As processing power and storage became cheaper, those pressures were largely alleviated and developers emphasized economic programming less.

Now, with smart phones and batteries, it appears the focus on efficiency should return. I remember reading an article a while ago talking about how apps (the article was focused on facebook's app) keep getting more bloated, and requiring more cached storage and processing power. Why do some updates for seemingly simple apps take up megabytes of space?

Anyway, there is a generation of programmers who could write inefficient code without any consequences. I'm not sure if new developers have efficiency and small footprint as points of emphasis in their education.

CunegoFan
12-21-2017, 09:15 AM
This is true. The software updates mostly don't improve the user experience. They make it more complex.

I'm a big podcast guy and the podcast format that was included a few updates ago stinks.

And no this isn't a conspiracy with tin foil hats. It's easily documented and Apple even admits they are doing it. I think their excuse is total and complete BS.

My 5S is old and I'll be the first to admit it but it should be my choice to upgrade to a new model, not something forced upon me because Apple thinks it's time.

This is worse than planned obsolescence.

How would (will?) owners react if Tesla decides it's time for the owners to get a new car so they reduce functionality via a software update? That's exactly what Apple is doing.

Get a grip and a clue.

As explained by TechCrunch's Matthew Panzarino:
Basically, iPhones were hitting peaks of processor power that the battery was unable to power and the phones were shutting off. Apple then added power management to all iPhones at the time that would 'smooth out' those peaks by either capping the power available from the battery or by spreading power requests over several cycles.
When an iPhone's battery ages, there may come a point when it can't provide the processor with enough power to reach a peak of power, and thus it spreads the requests out "over a few cycles," resulting in the peaks and perceived lower scores on benchmarking tests. As Panzarino points out, benchmarking tests are not reflective of real world usage and will artificially trigger the power management features in the iPhone.

"In other words, you're always going to be triggering this when you run a benchmark, but you definitely will not always trigger this effect when you're using your iPhone like normal," writes Panzarino.

The slowdown of older models is due to limited RAM, which Apple has always been stingy with, the addition of features to new versions of the OS, and Apple designing new OS versions for its current halo model rather than models that are three generations old. App size bloat over time exacerbates the problem; you may think you are doing the same thing you always were with that Facebook app, but the app has grown immensely and now strains the resources of your phone. Not everything is a conspiracy by The Man.

saab2000
12-21-2017, 09:21 AM
Get a grip and a clue.....

Not everything is a conspiracy by The Man.

Dude, chill. I get that there are things going on with RAM and app size. And I also get that my phone is old.

But when Apple admits throttling speed it's not really a conspiracy.

There is no doubt that my phone has slowed down to a nearly unusable crawl with the past couple software updates.

shovelhd
12-21-2017, 09:29 AM
My 5S is old and I'll be the first to admit it but it should be my choice to upgrade to a new model, not something forced upon me because Apple thinks it's time.

This is worse than planned obsolescence.

How would (will?) owners react if Tesla decides it's time for the owners to get a new car so they reduce functionality via a software update? That's exactly what Apple is doing.

Kinda like what Shimano did with 6770 Di2. It's 11 speed compatible, then it's not.

staggerwing
12-21-2017, 09:34 AM
I'm not going to try and apologize for Apple, but this whole issue would become a non-issue if batteries were more readily replaceable by mere mortals, and consumers were instructed to expect some slowdown correlating with battery age and cycle count. Might slow down the purchase of shiny new phones though.

It would also be nice if the consumer could decide whether they preferred conservative power management, with a longer run time, or the inverse. In the Apple universe, the Mothership decides what is best for the end user.

commonguy001
12-21-2017, 09:37 AM
The change in my 6 was super noticeable after the update they are talking about. We decided it was time after 3 years and did new iPhone 8 Plus phones. This one is water resistant so I'm pretty happy about that.

I figured they did it on purpose when they stopped signing (whatever that means) the old iOS certificate so you couldn't roll it back.

Mikej
12-21-2017, 09:41 AM
Oh yeah, now I remember- Apple had like a trillion in the bank...that’s why we need to slow down 2year old phones, so they can have 2trillion in the bank-

benb
12-21-2017, 09:48 AM
There are all kinds of different issues going on here everyone should chill.

Apple is likely way less guilty of a lot of this stuff than other manufacturers.

- First they actually do try and tailor/eliminate some of the new features for the old phones to try and mediate performance issues on old phones. So does Google.

- A lot of android phones never even get the updates. You can't complain about your 2-3 year old android phone being slow with the latest software because chances are you are not even being given the choice to upgrade it.

- Don't discount the battery issue vs CPU Speed. Apple usually doesn't advertise the CPU Speeds but you can usually find them if you look at some of the more technical hardware centric websites that cover this stuff. Apple phones usually have VERY conservative maximum clock speeds compared to Android designs. Apple does this partly to get good battery life and partly because they spend more time customizing their CPU cores for their needs, and partly because iOS + it's apps are forced into a more efficient design. Android phones were advertising 2Ghz+ maximum CPU clock speeds years ago, I'm not sure but I don't think even these latest iPhones do 1.5Ghz. Some iPads do have higher clock speeds because the iPad has a huge battery compared to a phone.

- All these devices almost never run at their full clock speed. If you have an app that locks in the phone at 100% maximum rated CPU Clock speed and keeps the phone wide awake with constant network access (a video game would be the most likely candidate) you can drain the batteries incredibly quickly, even on a brand new phone. To keep this from happening the phones all aggressively slow their CPU speeds down and turn off bits of the system every chance they can get. And both Google & Apple have reams of documentation and recommendations for you if you're programming an application to make sure your application doesn't have bad behaviors that kill batteries. I haven't written an iOS app but I have written an Android app that did background network activity and there is a lot going on with battery stuff, very interesting. Because of some of the factors mentioned above Apple phones actually run at a higher % of their maximum more often than Androids usually do. The Android designs often have higher temporary "turbo" functionality that is great for marketing/advertising, but they might not be able to sustain it long due to heating and/or battery factors.

- Add up the above and now you've got a 2 year old battery. It's got 50-60% capacity of a new phone. The choice on the manufacturer + software side is do you want that user to be complaining about the battery life (the phone keeps running everything like it's brand new) or the CPU speed (the phone changes it's performance profile to try and preserve a longer battery life).

All that is going on here is Apple has been fiddling around with the balance. Certainly in the past I think iPhones had much worse battery performance after a year or two.

You can get the Apple support app and request they run a battery diagnostic on your phone.. I did so yesterday, I have a 6S that is getting older. The speed is not really getting on my nerves yet. They said I had about 400 charge cycles on my battery but the battery health was still about 90%. My understanding is there is a threshold where the health starts dropping faster in the 500-600 cycle range. I'm going to keep waiting on mine.

If you use your phone incessantly it's going to hit these problems faster as you'll go through more charge cycles per time period.

bobswire
12-21-2017, 09:50 AM
No wonder my Strava/MapMyRide times have gotten slower and here I thought it was me. ;)

Tickdoc
12-21-2017, 10:13 AM
There is no doubt that my phone has slowed down to a nearly unusable crawl with the past couple software updates.


My point is that it just so happens to coincide with the fall launch of a new phone.....about a month before the new phone launches.

I'm not a conspirist but that is just too damn coincidental.

jlwdm
12-21-2017, 10:20 AM
Seems like a good thing to me.

Jeff

benb
12-21-2017, 10:28 AM
It coincides with the new software release which added the functionality to balance battery life vs speed with old/unhealthy batteries.

The only way they could probably keep people happy would be to offer free new batteries. (Yah right)

They could also give you a slider to balance out the behavior of battery life vs speed. That's not really the apple way though. I'd expect Samsung to do that though if they implement a similar feature.

paredown
12-21-2017, 10:31 AM
There are all kinds of different issues going on here everyone should chill.

Apple is likely way less guilty of a lot of this stuff than other manufacturers.

- First they actually do try and tailor/eliminate some of the new features for the old phones to try and mediate performance issues on old phones. So does Google.

- A lot of android phones never even get the updates. You can't complain about your 2-3 year old android phone being slow with the latest software because chances are you are not even being given the choice to upgrade it.

- Don't discount the battery issue vs CPU Speed. Apple usually doesn't advertise the CPU Speeds but you can usually find them if you look at some of the more technical hardware centric websites that cover this stuff. Apple phones usually have VERY conservative maximum clock speeds compared to Android designs. Apple does this partly to get good battery life and partly because they spend more time customizing their CPU cores for their needs, and partly because iOS + it's apps are forced into a more efficient design. Android phones were advertising 2Ghz+ maximum CPU clock speeds years ago, I'm not sure but I don't think even these latest iPhones do 1.5Ghz. Some iPads do have higher clock speeds because the iPad has a huge battery compared to a phone.

- All these devices almost never run at their full clock speed. If you have an app that locks in the phone at 100% maximum rated CPU Clock speed and keeps the phone wide awake with constant network access (a video game would be the most likely candidate) you can drain the batteries incredibly quickly, even on a brand new phone. To keep this from happening the phones all aggressively slow their CPU speeds down and turn off bits of the system every chance they can get. And both Google & Apple have reams of documentation and recommendations for you if you're programming an application to make sure your application doesn't have bad behaviors that kill batteries. I haven't written an iOS app but I have written an Android app that did background network activity and there is a lot going on with battery stuff, very interesting. Because of some of the factors mentioned above Apple phones actually run at a higher % of their maximum more often than Androids usually do. The Android designs often have higher temporary "turbo" functionality that is great for marketing/advertising, but they might not be able to sustain it long due to heating and/or battery factors.

- Add up the above and now you've got a 2 year old battery. It's got 50-60% capacity of a new phone. The choice on the manufacturer + software side is do you want that user to be complaining about the battery life (the phone keeps running everything like it's brand new) or the CPU speed (the phone changes it's performance profile to try and preserve a longer battery life).

All that is going on here is Apple has been fiddling around with the balance. Certainly in the past I think iPhones had much worse battery performance after a year or two.

You can get the Apple support app and request they run a battery diagnostic on your phone.. I did so yesterday, I have a 6S that is getting older. The speed is not really getting on my nerves yet. They said I had about 400 charge cycles on my battery but the battery health was still about 90%. My understanding is there is a threshold where the health starts dropping faster in the 500-600 cycle range. I'm going to keep waiting on mine.

If you use your phone incessantly it's going to hit these problems faster as you'll go through more charge cycles per time period.
Good points all--but I would add that my old Android phone was crippled, not so much by OS updates, as by Google-pushed application updates, often for applications that I did not use but were bundled with the phone and not removable.

I do think that the new business model is obsolescence and replacement--well, that was probably the old business model too--but the cycle is running so much faster now, especially with the phone market.

I'm currently helping to clean up an estate's old Mac computers--we sold the very old/antique stuff to collectors--and I've got a series of Macs starting with a Powerbook 500c, and ending with a Mac Pro tower ~2008 that I need to wipe and donate or resell. What strikes me is how antique the old Powerbook is (even though it sold for a whopping $5k + in 1994), and the slow development of models (the next one I have is a 5400c) and features. It's not until the G4 tower that we're at something that looks fairly 'modern' with ethernet capability etc--5 or 6 years later.

Now a new model of a phone can be developed, prototyped and marketed in an 18 month cycle...

benb
12-21-2017, 10:44 AM
Those old Macs were not really consumer products the same way that phones are.

Apple has still been super bad with obsoleting Macs from time to time too.

I have not bought a Mac in years, partly because I bought a Mac Pro in 2006... great machine, got great use of it.

Apple prematurely dropped support for those machines in late 2011. Mine was still more powerful than brand new machines that they were selling in 2013-2014.

That was a really expensive machine. I had about $3k in mine including upgrades but some people probably had $5k in them. Of course the people who put $5k into them were probably also the type who "had to" buy another $5k one 2 years later.

We were still using it somewhat till pretty recently when the hard drive died.. if I put a new hard drive in it we could probably get some additional good use out of it with Linux or something. It's still a pretty powerful machine. 1GB video card, 12GB ram, terabytes of disc space, 2.66Ghz Xeon machine with 4 cores.

zap
12-21-2017, 10:47 AM
edit


- A lot of android phones never even get the updates. You can't complain about your 2-3 year old android phone being slow with the latest software because chances are you are not even being given the choice to upgrade it.


Samsung/Verizon have updates for my S7 every 2 weeks or so ........mostly security updates. Ignoring most app updates.

tylercheung
12-21-2017, 10:52 AM
Granted...the Android contemporaries from the iPhone 5s to 6 era are not even eligible for Android Oreo, so the fact that Apple is bending over backwards to support phones several generations old is something. This when mobile phone processors are doubling in speed every generation... The S7 gets updates but the S6 and Nexus lines from that time period have been sunsetted...

cnighbor1
12-21-2017, 11:31 AM
I have noticed that recently

tylercheung
12-21-2017, 11:47 AM
Apple’s built-in podcast app has always been quirky, I use Overcast which has been much, much better..



This is true. The software updates mostly don't improve the user experience. They make it more complex.

I'm a big podcast guy and the podcast format that was included a few updates ago stinks.

And no this isn't a conspiracy with tin foil hats. It's easily documented and Apple even admits they are doing it. I think their excuse is total and complete BS.

My 5S is old and I'll be the first to admit it but it should be my choice to upgrade to a new model, not something forced upon me because Apple thinks it's time.

This is worse than planned obsolescence.

How would (will?) owners react if Tesla decides it's time for the owners to get a new car so they reduce functionality via a software update? That's exactly what Apple is doing.

paredown
12-21-2017, 12:09 PM
...

I have not bought a Mac in years, partly because I bought a Mac Pro in 2006... great machine, got great use of it.

Apple prematurely dropped support for those machines in late 2011. Mine was still more powerful than brand new machines that they were selling in 2013-2014.

That was a really expensive machine. I had about $3k in mine including upgrades but some people probably had $5k in them. Of course the people who put $5k into them were probably also the type who "had to" buy another $5k one 2 years later.

We were still using it somewhat till pretty recently when the hard drive died.. if I put a new hard drive in it we could probably get some additional good use out of it with Linux or something. It's still a pretty powerful machine. 1GB video card, 12GB ram, terabytes of disc space, 2.66Ghz Xeon machine with 4 cores.
Not to hijack completely, but the Mac Pro that I have here is just a couple of years later (3,1) and it is only now unable to run the latest version of OS X without some serious hacking. You are right, they are beautiful machines.

Climb01742
12-21-2017, 07:06 PM
A good explanation:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/21/technology/iphone-battery-problem-slow.html?module=WatchingPortal&region=c-column-middle-span-region&pgType=Homepage&action=click&mediaId=thumb_square&state=standard&contentPlacement=2&version=internal&contentCollection=www.nytimes.com&contentId=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2017%2F1 2%2F21%2Ftechnology%2Fiphone-battery-problem-slow.html&eventName=Watching-article-click

A new battery, not a new phone, is a solution.

Tony T
12-22-2017, 07:08 AM
iFixit has kits: https://www.ifixit.com/Kits/iPhone-Battery-Kits

572cv
12-22-2017, 08:24 AM
The batteries used in phones, like any battery, eventually fail. It's a chemistry problem. As they age, their voltage becomes somewhat unpredictable. The battery level indicator becomes something of a black magic scale, and your phone, which likes a consistent power source, can simply shut off, even if it appears to have plenty of power. The battery indicator says its ok, but its not.

There appear to be three options.
-Get a new battery installed; not a cheap option.
-Operate the phone at full power, knowing that it will likely shut off unpredictably.
- Slow down the operation of the phone so the battery will last longer.

Arguably, in a phone, the last is the right choice. Its a phone. You might have an emergency, god forbid, and need to reach someone. The problem Apple created for itself was in a) setting expectations and b) making the choice for the owner. But Apple is a notably secretive company, so this decision fit their culture, and became a PR problem. I really don't thing they did anything 'wrong', but they certainly didn't think it through very well.

verticaldoug
12-22-2017, 08:56 AM
Doesn't matter, two lawsuits already filed asking for class action status.

It will follow on the back of Apple slowing Facetime on older phone class action suit. I see a pattern.

They already had their hand held in the fire once, you'd think they learn.

Climb01742
12-22-2017, 09:58 AM
It's probably not technically possible, but it would be nice if Apple said, hey if you want, revert to an older version of the iOS to unimprove our 'improvements'.

What should at least be possible (and helpful and transparent) is when they send out an iOS update, state clearly and simply any downsides to installing the update. Let us know the trade-offs. While it's hard to pass up security updates and bug fixes, if we as users knew the downsides, we could at least choose.

Mikej
12-22-2017, 10:11 AM
The batteries used in phones, like any battery, eventually fail. It's a chemistry problem. As they age, their voltage becomes somewhat unpredictable. The battery level indicator becomes something of a black magic scale, and your phone, which likes a consistent power source, can simply shut off, even if it appears to have plenty of power. The battery indicator says its ok, but its not.

There appear to be three options.
-Get a new battery installed; not a cheap option.
-Operate the phone at full power, knowing that it will likely shut off unpredictably.
- Slow down the operation of the phone so the battery will last longer.

Arguably, in a phone, the last is the right choice. Its a phone. You might have an emergency, god forbid, and need to reach someone. The problem Apple created for itself was in a) setting expectations and b) making the choice for the owner. But Apple is a notably secretive company, so this decision fit their culture, and became a PR problem. I really don't thing they did anything 'wrong', but they certainly didn't think it through very well.

Or warning that one more app opened up will crash this thing?

MattTuck
12-22-2017, 10:19 AM
I've been a casual observer of the free and open software movement for a number of years. At some point, I think this becomes a related question.

You buy a piece of hardware and there is a legal question about whether you control what happens on that piece of hardware, or even if you have a right to know. If we view apple as a paternalistic force, their actions could be described as "working to protect the hardware against inevitable degradation". On the other hand, if I view it as a property rights issue, namely that if I paid for the phone, and I want it to run at a speed that was advertised, I should have that ability -- even if it is detrimental to the battery life and the phone itself.

Transparency, disclosure, and opt-in are probably most of the solution. Hiding this kind of thing from consumers is not really in the spirit of competition. And that goes for Apple, Android, Samsung, .... whoever.

There is an interesting case out there about seeking public access to the computer code used in DNA sequencing machines. Namely, that if citizens/consumers cannot audit the code, how can we trust that it is doing what it says it is doing.

Interesting times.

Climb01742
12-22-2017, 10:37 AM
Given that iPhones comprise nearly 70% of Apple's revenue, you'd think they might want to treat those users with greater transparency and care. Granted, the Apple universe is awfully 'sticky' so maybe outright defections might be low but deferred upgrades feel pretty real, says the guy still using his 5S phone.

shovelhd
12-22-2017, 10:47 AM
Granted, the Apple universe is awfully 'sticky' so maybe outright defections might be low but deferred upgrades feel pretty real, says the guy still using his 5S phone.

Except for the blip surrounding the iPhone 7, the iPhone has been steadily losing market share for at least the last five years.

jlwdm
12-22-2017, 10:53 AM
Doesn't matter, two lawsuits already filed asking for class action status.

It will follow on the back of Apple slowing Facetime on older phone class action suit. I see a pattern.

They already had their hand held in the fire once, you'd think they learn.

Sad society we live in when we have these potential class action suits already. I have a 6S and use it constantly with no issue. I also recognize that with technology advances you can't keep using old technology and get everything available with new technology.

Jeff

verticaldoug
12-22-2017, 11:52 AM
There is an interesting case out there about seeking public access to the computer code used in DNA sequencing machines. Namely, that if citizens/consumers cannot audit the code, how can we trust that it is doing what it says it is doing.

Interesting times.

I'll take your thread drift and run with it.

Competition and reproducibility is your best defense here. Although Theranos was not a NGS company, the lack of reproducibility sunk the system.

For NGS, Illumina has dominate market share, but it is not the only supplier. Everyone is constantly benchmarking. If Oxford Nanopore or Pacific Biosciences found any inconsistencies in data from Illumina , you can bet they'd be publishing those results everywhere.

If you go a step higher into the software of deNovo assembly of full genomes , or looking at subsets of data, most research is required to keep the raw data files from the NGS machines, so subsequent researchers can reproduce to verify the results. Software systems like GATK from Broad is open source and available on the cloud. Again, it is not the only game in town, and researchers are constantly running comparison tests of different software systems.

Where it gets really hard is when Google who supports Broad Institute on its cloud platform takes the data a step farther and turns it into a picture and then trains its Machine Learning Vision system to recognize images. Because the software is just weights in a neural net, how it gets it's answer is anyones guess. (BTW, Google and Broad just released a paper on this system as superior to GATK) So again the only verification is reproducibility and comparing to other existing systems. At the end of the day, this is just not a data science problem, it is a real science problem with verifiable answers. Thankfully, a lot of the research has been gov sponsored and the software programs are often open sourced.

I think a harder problem is private software making arbitrary recommendations. A case I heard about last year concerned a Prisoner Parole System produced by consultants is used for parole or sentencing recommendations by judges. The algorithm is tagged proprietary by the firm who wrote it and black boxed. This system comes with all the built in biases with no checks or balances. This is the bigger problem. You take something that isn't scientific but more subjective, make it into an algorithm and all of a sudden it is written in stone.

Climb01742
12-22-2017, 03:49 PM
Except for the blip surrounding the iPhone 7, the iPhone has been steadily losing market share for at least the last five years.

Sales look healthy to me:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/

As does their market cap.;)

shovelhd
12-22-2017, 04:03 PM
Sales look healthy to me:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/

As does their market cap.;)

Both of which have nothing to do with market share. ;)

Climb01742
12-22-2017, 04:14 PM
Both of which have nothing to do with market share. ;)

True. Market share can be a misleading indicator of a product's or company's health. There are segments of the phone market Apple has no interest in chasing. Revenue and unit sales and price per unit are, perhaps, more relevant metrics?;)

adub
12-22-2017, 04:48 PM
That tinfoil hat is on a bit too tight.

You must work at an Apple store. LOL!

shovelhd
12-23-2017, 10:11 AM
True. Market share can be a misleading indicator of a product's or company's health. There are segments of the phone market Apple has no interest in chasing. Revenue and unit sales and price per unit are, perhaps, more relevant metrics?;)

You are making a convoluted argument.

There's Iphone, Android, and everything else. Android dominates the market, and has been increasing their market share for most of the past five years. Iphone sales have been mostly decreasing. Google makes phones, but the majority of their Android revenue comes from other manufacturers via phones and tablets. Revenue doesn't compare. Unit sales are what defines the market data. Price per unit only applies to the Google phones, see above.

CiclistiCliff
12-23-2017, 10:56 AM
I’ve been postponing the OS update on my iPhone for about 3 months. At 12:01am on Thursday, the speakers stopped working. Hard reboot didn’t work. Nothing did. Reluctantly updated the OS and magically everything works great again.

I worked for a ODD manufacturer. We knew when products were going to fail...

54ny77
12-23-2017, 11:39 AM
haven't read all the replies, but i'll say this: android does the same.

the last os update on my older droid (which was only a couple of years old) caused such bad battery drain that i had to go buy a new phone.

I knew it. You can try to explain it from an engineering standpoint, but you cannot explain why every fall when a new device is introduced why your old device suddenly slows down.

sumbitches.

https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-slows-down-older-iphone-battery-issues/#

shovelhd
12-23-2017, 03:34 PM
haven't read all the replies, but i'll say this: android does the same.

the last os update on my older droid (which was only a couple of years old) caused such bad battery drain that i had to go buy a new phone.

I haven't had that problem, then again I have a modern phone, aGalaxy S8. What I can't stand about the feature updates is that they reset critical app settings. The last time it messed with Android Auto and Waze, something I depend on every day. It took me hours of digging to change the settings back to where it all worked again.

MattTuck
12-28-2017, 06:32 PM
Looks like Apple is now offering cheap battery upgrades.

Which begs the question why, if the only degradation over time is the battery, isn't the battery easier to change for the regular consumer...

and this goes for many phone manufacturers. The Galaxy was doing swappable batteries a few generations ago, but I think many have swapped to sealed designs... under the auspices of waterproofness.

wc1934
12-28-2017, 06:42 PM
Looks like Apple is now offering cheap battery upgrades.

Which begs the question why, if the only degradation over time is the battery, isn't the battery easier to change for the regular consumer...

and this goes for many phone manufacturers. The Galaxy was doing swappable batteries a few generations ago, but I think many have swapped to sealed designs... under the auspices of waterproofness.

iphone 6 and above. Allowing $50 off a new battery - so, a new battery for $29.
However, I have no idea how to go about changing it - hope they dont expect me to pay them to do it.

denapista
12-28-2017, 06:50 PM
Apple should be offering the replacement for free....

There's a reddit user who used an app to clock to processor speeds on his iphone 6. After IOS11 update, the phone was running at 600mhz, versus the 1200mhz prior to IOS11. My iphone 6 is utterly useless to me after the last 2 updates. When I open the mail app (Outlook), it takes about 10 seconds for the messages to appear after a long pause of blank white screen.

Apple could have avoided this by being transparent and saying upgrading your phone to the newest IOS will degrade performance. How can they push a single IOS when every model phone has different chips? That's like a Windows driver applying to all versions of Windows (XP, ME, NT, Win7, Win8, etc).

I always let my buddies with newer phones talk me into the damn IOS upgrades. "Yo the new IOS has cool Emojis!"

kppolich
12-28-2017, 08:38 PM
iPhone SE user here. I've had it since April, 2016 and it is still running iOS 9.3.3. I've had absolutely no issues with it and it is still as snappy as day one- most likely because I have it jailbroken. Battery can last 2+ days as I'm on wifi at home and work.

djg21
12-28-2017, 08:54 PM
iphone 6 and above. Allowing $50 off a new battery - so, a new battery for $29.
However, I have no idea how to go about changing it - hope they dont expect me to pay them to do it.

Look on eBay for battery replacement kits. They come with the necessary tools. There are instructional videos on YouTube. If you can install a rear derailleur, you have the technical know-how to change an iPhone battery so long as you are careful and patient.

verticaldoug
12-29-2017, 06:39 AM
Apple apologizes and says 'they never never do anything to shorten the usefulness of an older model'.

So now that they have asked us to suspend disbelief, will they start providing software updates to older models which were previously discontinued? Someone is still using their 5s right?

And about that older Mac I have.....

I believe the French Gov is planning to sue them too.

How do you know a corporate spokesman is lying? Their lips are moving.
As for androids doing the same thing, there is never one cockroach.

pasadena
12-29-2017, 08:20 PM
will they start providing software updates to older models which were previously discontinued?

This is the key question I don't see anyone pressing Apple for.

I read that class action lawsuit against Apple for fraud is starting up- my hope is that a part of that lawsuit forces Apple to clean slate the OS to original clockspeeds.

It's obvious what Apple is doing and glad it has finally been exposed.

jlwdm
12-29-2017, 08:46 PM
This is the key question I don't see anyone pressing Apple for.

I read that class action lawsuit against Apple for fraud is starting up- my hope is that a part of that lawsuit forces Apple to clean slate the OS to original clockspeeds.

It's obvious what Apple is doing and glad it has finally been exposed.

I totally disagree. Seems like a good compromise between speed and battery under needed conditions. I have a 6S and have not noticed any issues.

Jeff

bfd
12-30-2017, 01:03 AM
iphone 6 and above. Allowing $50 off a new battery - so, a new battery for $29.
However, I have no idea how to go about changing it - hope they dont expect me to pay them to do it.

No worries, I did a chat today with apple support and was told the $29 covers the battery and installation! That's a good deal. The batteries will be available starting in late January until December 31, 2018.

Only caveat - you need to make an appointment at the Apple Store. Good Luck!

regularguy412
12-30-2017, 07:16 AM
I have a 5S. Since the last update to 11.x iOS, weird battery things have been happening. Occasionally when the battery level gets down near 20% charge, the phone can suddenly show dropping to near 0% charge,, like 4% or 5%. then when you immediately go plug it in to the charger, it jumps back UP to where it was before,, around 20%. Weird. Only started after the iOS update. Otherwise, the battery life and clock speed seem to be about what they've always been for this phone.

It would be nice if they would stop monkeying around with the battery control stuff. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mike in AR:beer:

oldpotatoe
12-30-2017, 07:23 AM
This is the key question I don't see anyone pressing Apple for.

I read that class action lawsuit against Apple for fraud is starting up- my hope is that a part of that lawsuit forces Apple to clean slate the OS to original clockspeeds.

It's obvious what Apple is doing and glad it has finally been exposed.

Read a lot of indignation..and I get it but geez, it's a phone, not a faulty stent they put in one of your arteries..a phone..

My 6S+ works fine..BTW..

IMHO, of course, 'pal'.

ripvanrando
12-30-2017, 09:50 AM
I have had an i5 for nearly 5 years and intentionally never upgraded IOS.

I was born with a tinfoil hat.

No battery problems. None.

Storage is getting constrained somehow but otherwise, no performance drop.

Thinking of upgrading.....either 7 or 8. Probably 7.

thwart
12-30-2017, 10:07 AM
A bit like the recent VW screw-up, the Apple folks are now trying to undo the damage to customer relations by offering a product (battery replacement) at a price that likely represents a loss for them.

So... those of us who have owned their iPhones for 2 or 3 yrs (like yrs truly with an ancient iPhone 6) will get brand new batteries and improved performance for pocket change.

Bear with me, but I don't think the Android crowd can take advantage of anything like that. :rolleyes:

Transparency would have avoided the whole mess. Then most of us wouldn't have upgraded to the newest iOS... but I wonder if the app developers have a ton of trouble designing stuff that works with multiple iOS's... ?

Tickdoc
12-30-2017, 10:12 AM
I have a 6s, and I did an update in october inadvertantly. You know how the phone constantly prompts you to update? I ignored it over and over but I guess I started the update by accident and now my phone is sluggish as hell.

It doesn’t unlock well with the fingerprint thing like it used to. If I want to take a picture, or heaven forbid, make a call, I have to sit there and watch it stare back at me for what seems like an eternity.

So now, they are offering another update. I guess I should take it but I’m less than hopeful it is going to fix things.

What a crock.

Back to my original post though, my whole beef with this problem is ( wait whilst I tighten my tinfoil just a bit and tilt my head just right) that I feel these are preplanned problems that are built in the phone just to goad you into buying a new one. The timing is just too coincidental and that is what chaps me more than anything else.

If you bought a car that did zero to sixty in four seconds flat when you bought it, and five years later it took 4.5 seconds, then that is understandable for a combustible engine car to do that and it would bother me at all. If you bought that same car and it slowed way down only after the new one came out and the dealer serviced it, then I would be pissed.

Sorry, I just can’t stop.
https://i2.wp.com/thesunbreak.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Beat-the-dead-horse.png?fit=243%2C208

jamesdak
12-30-2017, 10:16 AM
haven't read all the replies, but i'll say this: android does the same.

the last os update on my older droid (which was only a couple of years old) caused such bad battery drain that i had to go buy a new phone.

Hmmmm, still running a Galaxy S4 and I've had no problems. In fact I'm surprised I am still on my original battery after all these years.

I've never seen a performance drop off on it of any kind. It updates automatically.

Vientomas
12-30-2017, 10:27 AM
Galaxy S4 and S6...Update when available and no battery degradation or other issues.

Bob Ross
12-30-2017, 11:05 AM
My iPhone 5s is still going strong. The battery life sucks, but haven’t noticed it slow down.

I'm the opposite: My iPhone 5S was running just fine, with decent battery life...until about two or three weeks ago*, when suddenly it would go from ~91% to <20% in less than an hour. I now can't go out for a bike ride without turning my phone off -- which almost defeats the purpose of bringing a phone in the first place -- otherwise it will be completely dead within 20 miles.

*Coincidentally, right about the time this article was published. :mad:

cnighbor1
12-30-2017, 11:18 AM
n o w a y I s a p p l e i s n o t
s l o w I n g o l d e r p h o n e s

thwart
12-30-2017, 01:07 PM
I'm the opposite: My iPhone 5S was running just fine, with decent battery life...until about two or three weeks ago*, when suddenly it would go from ~91% to <20% in less than an hour. I now can't go out for a bike ride without turning my phone off -- which almost defeats the purpose of bringing a phone in the first place -- otherwise it will be completely dead within 20 miles.

*Coincidentally, right about the time this article was published. :mad:

And also coincidentally when the temps dropped. My old iPhone 4S started doing exactly that when it's dying battery was gasping for breath. Then I had to ride with it against my chest for awhile to warm it up and give me a few minutes of use.

Solo winter rides in rural areas with a questionably functioning phone... no bueno.

saab2000
12-30-2017, 01:19 PM
I just got the new iPhone X. It's nifty but hardly revolutionary. My 5S is over four years old and was suffering the same symptoms everyone else here describes. It was time for a new one.

I wanted the 8 but the Verizon store I visited in the Twin Cities didn't have it in stock. So I went with the X.

I'm not sorry I have a new one but don't be fooled, it's just the new iPhone. Our expectations have been raised to such levels that we're disappointed when something like this is released, forgetting how revolutionary these devices really are. In my work it's a crazy useful device.

My advice: If you don't need to get a new one, don't.

Ralph
12-30-2017, 01:44 PM
Every since I put a screen saver on the IPhone SE I just got....it's touch sensitivity has way decreased. Screen doesn't work good....especially on secondary settings. Any of you have these issues with screen savers? Thinking of just taking it off. So it gets scratched up over time don't see that as a big deal. But wife thinks I need a fancy case and screen saver. Must add about 50% to weight.

saab2000
12-30-2017, 02:08 PM
Every since I put a screen saver on the IPhone SE I just got....it's touch sensitivity has way decreased. Screen doesn't work good....especially on secondary settings. Any of you have these issues with screen savers? Thinking of just taking it off. So it gets scratched up over time don't see that as a big deal. But wife thinks I need a fancy case and screen saver. Must add about 50% to weight.

I don't use a screen saver but I do use the Apple leather case. It provides a bit of security and the glass screen is much nicer to use without a covering it with plastic..... :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm easy on my phone generally and a thick case sort of ruins the experience. The leather one is a nice compromise and it fits the phone perfectly.

BTW, If Apple releases a small form-factor iPhone SE II (SES?) I could imagine trying it out. I'm not in love with (nor do I hate) the size of the largish
iPhone X.

rePhil
12-30-2017, 02:33 PM
I'm using an SE too. I am using an old Otterbox from my wife's old iPhone5. It has a hole for the button.


QUOTE=Ralph;2286650]Every since I put a screen saver on the IPhone SE I just got....it's touch sensitivity has way decreased. Screen doesn't work good....especially on secondary settings. Any of you have these issues with screen savers? Thinking of just taking it off. So it gets scratched up over time don't see that as a big deal. But wife thinks I need a fancy case and screen saver. Must add about 50% to weight.[/QUOTE]

Ralph
12-30-2017, 03:16 PM
I don't use a screen saver but I do use the Apple leather case. It provides a bit of security and the glass screen is much nicer to use without a covering it with plastic..... :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm easy on my phone generally and a thick case sort of ruins the experience. The leather one is a nice compromise and it fits the phone perfectly.

BTW, If Apple releases a small form-factor iPhone SE II (SES?) I could imagine trying it out. I'm not in love with (nor do I hate) the size of the largish
iPhone X.

The size of the SE is perfect for me and my lifestyle. Just stick it in my pocket. Being retired....don't use it for work or anything. Occasional call, few texts each day, check E mail and stock quotes is about all I do. It does all I need. $160 at Consumer cellular. Just a tool to me, don't want to spend more than I need to. Wife has a 6S, and daughter a 7, and I would not trade with them. They have purses they carry stuff in. Size don't matter to them. If I still worked, and used it for client work, and wore a suit every day with coat pocket....would be different. Also....I think cost of these things is out of control for hi end models. Could buy 5 shares of BRK.B for what a X costs.

Bob Ross
12-30-2017, 03:45 PM
And also coincidentally when the temps dropped.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this is more related to the cold than to some nefarious planned obsolescence. Doesn't look like I'll be able to test this theory empirically for a few more weeks!

Climb01742
12-30-2017, 04:02 PM
I have a 5S. Since the last update to 11.x iOS, weird battery things have been happening. Occasionally when the battery level gets down near 20% charge, the phone can suddenly show dropping to near 0% charge,, like 4% or 5%. then when you immediately go plug it in to the charger, it jumps back UP to where it was before,, around 20%. Weird. Only started after the iOS update. Otherwise, the battery life and clock speed seem to be about what they've always been for this phone.

It would be nice if they would stop monkeying around with the battery control stuff. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mike in AR:beer:

Me too. My 5S does exactly the same thing. Weird indeed.

macaroon
12-30-2017, 04:16 PM
A bit like the recent VW screw-up, the Apple folks are now trying to undo the damage to customer relations by offering a product (battery replacement) at a price that likely represents a loss for them.

Bear with me, but I don't think the Android crowd can take advantage of anything like that. :rolleyes:



Apple and VW are very similar brands, marketed a certain way (as premium products). I'd be surprised if the majority of VW owners didn't own Apple products.

I'm not a sucker for marketing, so I own a cheap Android device. I can remove the back cover and slot in a spare battery, SD card and second SIM card whenever I like ;-)

saab2000
12-30-2017, 04:28 PM
The size of the SE is perfect for me and my lifestyle. Just stick it in my pocket. Being retired....don't use it for work or anything. Occasional call, few texts each day, check E mail and stock quotes is about all I do. It does all I need. $160 at Consumer cellular. Just a tool to me, don't want to spend more than I need to. Wife has a 6S, and daughter a 7, and I would not trade with them. They have purses they carry stuff in. Size don't matter to them. If I still worked, and used it for client work, and wore a suit every day with coat pocket....would be different. Also....I think cost of these things is out of control for hi end models. Could buy 5 shares of BRK.B for what a X costs.

I considered getting the SE. It's the right size for me too.

As for having a phone, it's been worth its weight and price over the years I have had one. In my work it's a valuable tool and when real smart phones became available it improved the quality of life for many in my line of work.

Marc40a
12-31-2017, 06:06 AM
You are making a convoluted argument.

There's Iphone, Android, and everything else. Android dominates the market, and has been increasing their market share for most of the past five years. Iphone sales have been mostly decreasing. Google makes phones, but the majority of their Android revenue comes from other manufacturers via phones and tablets. Revenue doesn't compare. Unit sales are what defines the market data. Price per unit only applies to the Google phones, see above.

This is largely correct but also slightly convoluted as well.

Android is an operating system, iPhone is a device. Thus we’re either talking about Android based devices vs iphones or IOS vs Android.

iOS devices dominate the developed world, Android the developing.

Globally, Android devices dominate - there’s a lot more people in the developing world.

marciero
12-31-2017, 06:58 AM
Apple apologizes and says 'they never never do anything to shorten the usefulness of an older model'.

So now that they have asked us to suspend disbelief, will they start providing software updates to older models which were previously discontinued? Someone is still using their 5s right?
...


It's funny to think how naive I was a few years ago after being dissatisfied with an OS upgrade on my first smartphone, the iphone 4, thinking I could simply re-install the old OS...
Battery life on that one was two+plus days when used mostly for occasional text. My current SE is similar. I've had a no-OS-upgrade policy since updating on that one several years ago. As was pointed out in another thread, that could leave me open to security vulnerabilities. I try to minimize by not doing any banking on that phone.

My main issue with the iphone has been the weak antenna and poor sound quality, both of which bear directly on UX, which Apple is famous for.

Rada
12-31-2017, 09:11 AM
This is largely correct but also slightly convoluted as well.

Android is an operating system, iPhone is a device. Thus we’re either talking about Android based devices vs iphones or IOS vs Android.

iOS devices dominate the developed world, Android the developing.

Globally, Android devices dominate - there’s a lot more people in the developing world.

Not sure what stats you are seeing.

Marc40a
01-14-2018, 01:38 PM
Not sure what stats you are seeing.

https://android.jlelse.eu/apple-vs-android-a-comparative-study-2017-c5799a0a1683

Rada
01-14-2018, 06:24 PM
https://android.jlelse.eu/apple-vs-android-a-comparative-study-2017-c5799a0a1683

User experience is not market share.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/08/09/us-iphone-sales-ios-market-share-kantar/

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/09/samsung-retakes-top-spot-from-apple-in-us-smartphones-kantar-says.html

https://www.statista.com/statistics/274121/market-share-held-by-smartphone-os-in-the-us/

Tickdoc
01-10-2019, 12:57 PM
Reviving this thread to bitch about Apple again.

So I got a new phone...an xs...and it is great. Battery lasts forever and the pictures are phenomenal, and the Face ID thing is convenient so I’m good there.

What I have noticed though is now I have to reload my apps on my iPad on what seems like a daily basis.

Is this another diabolical Apple ploy to get me to upgrade?

It is so freaking inconvenient to try to open something that won’t. Not sure if it can be turned off or something? I can understand an app I haven’t used in a year or two, but it seems to be all the usual ones and anytime I want to use one.

ltwtsculler91
01-10-2019, 01:04 PM
Reviving this thread to bitch about Apple again.

So I got a new phone...an xs...and it is great. Battery lasts forever and the pictures are phenomenal, and the Face ID thing is convenient so I’m good there.

What I have noticed though is now I have to reload my apps on my iPad on what seems like a daily basis.

Is this another diabolical Apple ploy to get me to upgrade?

It is so freaking inconvenient to try to open something that won’t. Not sure if it can be turned off or something? I can understand an app I haven’t used in a year or two, but it seems to be all the usual ones and anytime I want to use one.

There is a memory storage setting for offloading low use Apps where you have to download them to use. Forget where this is exactly, but it's in settings somewhere

MikeD
01-10-2019, 02:10 PM
Reviving this thread to bitch about Apple again.



So I got a new phone...an xs...and it is great. Battery lasts forever and the pictures are phenomenal, and the Face ID thing is convenient so I’m good there.



What I have noticed though is now I have to reload my apps on my iPad on what seems like a daily basis.



Is this another diabolical Apple ploy to get me to upgrade?



It is so freaking inconvenient to try to open something that won’t. Not sure if it can be turned off or something? I can understand an app I haven’t used in a year or two, but it seems to be all the usual ones and anytime I want to use one.



I've never had this problem. I've got an iPhone and two ipads. Are you backing up to icloud? Did you restore apps and settings from a very recent backup when you upgraded your phone?

Tickdoc
01-10-2019, 02:17 PM
I've never had this problem. I've got an iPhone and two ipads. Are you backing up to icloud? Did you restore apps and settings from a very recent backup when you upgraded your phone?

Not sure what I did, but it has been happening for about a month. It is dangerously low on memory, and I freed up some space to help but it still wants to reinstall apps constantly.

Tickdoc
01-10-2019, 02:18 PM
There is a memory storage setting for offloading low use Apps where you have to download them to use. Forget where this is exactly, but it's in settings somewhere

I’ll have to investigate to see if that is a setting turned on inadvertantly. Thanks for the tip, btw.

Jeff N.
01-10-2019, 02:51 PM
My 4S went to lunch...very slow...not alerting texts....got a new 8s. Problem solved.

MikeD
01-10-2019, 02:56 PM
I’ll have to investigate to see if that is a setting turned on inadvertantly. Thanks for the tip, btw.


If that doesn't work, I'd recommend wiping the phone and restoring from a recent icloud backup. Google how to do that.

Are you on wifi when these apps are trying to download? Also, something doesn't sound right if you're running out of memory.