Mavic M10 cassette question

[taz-t]

Does anyone have experience with Mavic M10 cassettes?

I have two NIB cassettes that I'd like to use but have been unable to find a free hub that they'll fit on.

Supposedly, they fit on Shimano compatible free hubs and since they are loose cogs with varied spacers, should allow for both Campy and Shimano 10 speed spacing (and I think Shimano 9).

I've tried to fit cassette on an older Mavic wheel (Classic SSC) which worked fine with Shimano cassettes and on a Shimano compatible Cane Creek wheel.

The cassette (I've only opened/tested one) will not slide onto the free hub. I tried one more time last week to make sure I wasn't overlooking something and I confirmed that the large cog will not fit onto the cassette, however the smaller cog does..odd!

Am I missing something? I haven't tried the cassette on an actual Shimano hub. Could that be the problem? Did the Mavic Shimano compatible freehub shape change from the time that Classic SSCs were available (i.e, would these fit a 10spd Ksyrium)?

Thanks for any info - web searches haven't turned up much.

- Taz

[oliver1850]

I've used them with the Campagnolo spacers. I think the Mavic freehub was wider than Shimano 8/9/10, but the spline pattern should be the same. To make the width of a C10 cassette fit a Shimano 8/9/10 freehub I've had to modify the large cog so it fits closer to the spokes. I believe that was on an 8 speed era carbon Zipp hub which is now laying in pieces in a box somewhere. I have several M10 cassettes on hand if there's anything you'd like me to check.

Post a pic of the large cog perhaps. What about the intermediate ones? Will they slide on?

[El Chaba]

It must be a manufacturing defect. The Mavic cogs have the Shimano spline pattern. As a note, you have to be careful with these cogs to use them on a freehub designed for them. Most later Mavic hubs are fine, but there are some "Shimano Only" hubs from earlier. The difference is 1.5 mm in width. If you put this cassette on a Shimano compatible version, it appears like it might fit, but there is a scary small amount of purchase for the small cog.

[dddd]

Mavic I recall also sold cassettes that were made for a Mavic-specific freehub body spline, where I seem to recall there were curved surfaces involved on the splines themselves.

No way would those interchange with campy or Shimano, but perhaps the small cog fits either because it is from a different cassette or because it is not actually engaging the splines(?).

I would just put these cassettes up for sale to as large of an audience as possible, likely someone out there needs them or wants to have them to future-proof an old bike that is "tout Mavic" as they say.

The Mavic freehubs were quite heavy as I remember them, and I wouldn't expect shifting to be of the quality we've become used to of late.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

[oldpotatoe]

Mavic I recall also sold cassettes that were made for a Mavic-specific freehub body spline, where I seem to recall there were curved surfaces involved on the splines themselves.

No way would those interchange with campy or Shimano, but perhaps the small cog fits either because it is from a different cassette or because it is not actually engaging the splines(?).

I would just put these cassettes up for sale to as large of an audience as possible, likely someone out there needs them or wants to have them to future-proof an old bike that is "tout Mavic" as they say.

The Mavic freehubs were quite heavy as I remember them, and I wouldn't expect shifting to be of the quality we've become used to of late.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

These...Mavic made s8 and c8 cogs, Campag 8s and shimano 8s..Mavic made cogs.

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=2D6342E1-8C8C-411E-9A4C-856002ABCF8E&Enum=110&AbsPos=212

Next gen was shimano splined for HG cogsets...and nothing for Campag until the gen after Helium wheels...I THINK..been 15++ years.

[taz-t]

It's entirely possible that I am trying to put these on with the wrong orientation (and I'm going to feel really stupid).

Does the number indicating the cog size/teeth face the inside of the wheel or outside?

They cogs don't have the ramps that a Shimano cassette has. Some teeth have profiling but I can't determine the direction based on them (not identical to Shimano or Campy profile).

The small cog's orientation is obvious since it has a built in spacer.

thanks.. I'll try to get some pictures posted later today.

[oliver1850]

They will go on either way as they don't have the narrow spline that Shimano uses to orient cogs. Numbers out is the correct way I think. There is no orientation needed as far as rotation, they can go on in any of nine positions.

Have you tried a different wheel?

Here's a full M10 cassette on an RS11 hub, and a single cog on a S8/9 freehub that was sitting here loose.

[taz-t]

Here's my cassette - no pictures of installation attempt currently.

But here's a very good explanation of what I'm encountering (taken from old thread on Timetrialing forum):

I've just bought a new Mavic M10 10-speed cassette (Campag spacing) for a Mavic Cosmic Elite wheel, which has a Mavic-only freehub. The only way I can fit the sprockets apart from the 13/12/11 - is by reversing them so that the stamped 23, 21, 19 etc faces towards the spokes. This doesn't seem right, and the sprockets were mounted on the plastic carrier in the normal way, ie you could see the number of teeth as you normally can. The teeth are "profiled" ie set at an angle so I'm sure they are not intended to be run in reverse. I called Ribble (who supplied the cassette) and they tried one on an Askium wheel with the same result.

The old cassette was identical except for the teeth numbers being on the right side. Anyone know whether this is normal with an M10 cassette?

Should I go ahead and install the larger cogs with the numbers facing inside towards the hub?

[oliver1850]

I don't have a Shimano splined Mavic wheel here, only a Campagnolo. I was able to put the M10 cogs on either way on a standard Shimano freehub. 1st pic is numbers out, 2nd is numbers in. The twisted teeth are pretty much symmetrical, so I'm guessing it doesn't matter which way they go on. I would align all the numbers on one spline just because it seems logical to do it. May not affect shifting to have them on randomly though. I'll be interested to hear if the Mavic freehub is wide enough to fit all 10 cogs with the black C10 spacers. I suspect it is, and avoids the issue I've had with these cassettes being too wide to fit on a Shimano 8/9/10.

[dddd]

I find it curious that such primitive cogs are intended for 10s drivetrains, since just about all bikes with 10 or 11s will have some kind of integrated shift levers.
Old-style cogs that don't employ the Hyperglide-style features in full measure are a hazardous nuisance when used for spirited riding involving shifting from the handlebars!
Shimano never produced a gruppo that had integrated shift levers which didn't include a Hyperglide cassette, because the unpredictable slippage of the drive while off of the saddle can make the bike swerve unpredictability and can cause the rider's foot to come unclipped.

On the other hand, this style of twisted-tooth cogs as used by Shimano on their old Uniglide cassettes and freewheels are the very best for friction shifting because they won't self-shift without audible warning if the lever position is a little bit off.

[El Chaba]

I don't have a Shimano splined Mavic wheel here, only a Campagnolo. I was able to put the M10 cogs on either way on a standard Shimano freehub. 1st pic is numbers out, 2nd is numbers in. The twisted teeth are pretty much symmetrical, so I'm guessing it doesn't matter which way they go on. I would align all the numbers on one spline just because it seems logical to do it. May not affect shifting to have them on randomly though. I'll be interested to hear if the Mavic freehub is wide enough to fit all 10 cogs with the black C10 spacers. I suspect it is, and avoids the issue I've had with these cassettes being too wide to fit on a Shimano 8/9/10.

You know, I'm wondering if Mavic didn't monkey with the diameter just a bit so that their cogs wouldn't fit on a Shimano hub, but Shimano cogs would fit a Mavic hub...The reason would be that the Mavic cogs/Campy spacer combination would be dangerous on a Shimano hub as the freehub body is 1.5 mm narrower and leaves the small cog with a dangerously small amount of purchase (as mentioned above). One way inter-compatibility so to speak....

[El Chaba]

I find it curious that such primitive cogs are intended for 10s drivetrains, since just about all bikes with 10 or 11s will have some kind of integrated shift levers.
Old-style cogs that don't employ the Hyperglide-style features in full measure are a hazardous nuisance when used for spirited riding involving shifting from the handlebars!
Shimano never produced a gruppo that had integrated shift levers which didn't include a Hyperglide cassette, because the unpredictable slippage of the drive while off of the saddle can make the bike swerve unpredictability and can cause the rider's foot to come unclipped.

On the other hand, this style of twisted-tooth cogs as used by Shimano on their old Uniglide cassettes and freewheels are the very best for friction shifting because they won't self-shift without audible warning if the lever position is a little bit off.

The Mavic cassettes aren't bad at all with 10 speed (Campagnolo). Under load, they aren't quite up to the standard of everything matching from the same manufacturer, but they aren't far off. Of course, they also have the added advantage of being able to construct a cassette with cogs in any position. That is you can use the same 17 cog adjacent to an 18 or a 19 or something else...You do have to make sure the rear derailleur is in good adjustment. I have a couple of Mavic wheelsets from the 9 speed era with these hubs and I regularly use them with Campy 10 speed. For anybody doing it regularly it might be worth noting that I find that the cassettes seem to work best with a SRAM chain.

[oldpotatoe]

I find it curious that such primitive cogs are intended for 10s drivetrains, since just about all bikes with 10 or 11s will have some kind of integrated shift levers.
Old-style cogs that don't employ the Hyperglide-style features in full measure are a hazardous nuisance when used for spirited riding involving shifting from the handlebars!
Shimano never produced a gruppo that had integrated shift levers which didn't include a Hyperglide cassette, because the unpredictable slippage of the drive while off of the saddle can make the bike swerve unpredictability and can cause the rider's foot to come unclipped.

On the other hand, this style of twisted-tooth cogs as used by Shimano on their old Uniglide cassettes and freewheels are the very best for friction shifting because they won't self-shift without audible warning if the lever position is a little bit off.

STI started in 1991 and uniglide(7400) continued till about 1993/4..teeny point..according to Velobase.

[oliver1850]

1991 Shimano catalog lists Hyperglide cassettes: HG50, HG70, HG90, and 7401-8. The 7400-6,7,8 and 6400-6,7 UG cassettes are still in the catalog but all MTB cassettes are HG. I'm sure Shimano figured most folks using STI would be buying a complete group with HG hub and cassette but there was nothing to prevent one from using UG. In fact, the 7403 8 speed hub was made to take either type of cassette. I'm pretty sure indexed bar end shifters predated STI, and surely plenty of tourists have successfully shifted them running twisted tooth freewheels and cassettes while standing.

My experience running the M10 cassette is similar to El Chaba's. Performance isn't at the level you'd get with a Campagnolo cassette, but it's good enough to be serviceable. When I had one on my Kirk I didn't feel it necessary to switch to a Campagnolo cassette. The M10 would still be on there if the Zipp hub hadn't blown up.

[oliver1850]

You know, I'm wondering if Mavic didn't monkey with the diameter just a bit so that their cogs wouldn't fit on a Shimano hub, but Shimano cogs would fit a Mavic hub...The reason would be that the Mavic cogs/Campy spacer combination would be dangerous on a Shimano hub as the freehub body is 1.5 mm narrower and leaves the small cog with a dangerously small amount of purchase (as mentioned above). One way inter-compatibility so to speak....

As I noted above, there's no problem with the cogs fitting 8/9 Shimano freehubs, other than the overall width issue. In my experience with the C10 spaced M10, the small cog won't engage the splines of an 8/9 freehub at all, and the lock ring won't even start to thread on. I got around this by filing the large cog out to fit deeper on the FH than normal. On the Zipp hub I never had any problems with derailleur contacting the spokes, but it could certainly be an issue with some wheels.

[dddd]

STI started in 1991 and uniglide(7400) continued till about 1993/4..teeny point..according to Velobase.

I believe that Velobase may be off on that, either that or the fact that Shimano did continue to sell lower-end gruppos in certain markets still with downtube shifters until at least the date cited by Velobase.

But Shimano never spec'd a gruppo of any level which included STI levers with Uniglide cogs, and the original 7/8sp Hyperglide chain was actually available at least since 1989, though first for mtb use.

And I believe neither did Campy with their Ergolevers, though I have come across a few bikes setup that way with Campy's older "lettered" style of 1st-gen Cassette cogs that one could re-shuffle the ratios at home with.
But I could be wrong about Campagnolo, since I'm not sure if they had yet brought copies of Shimano's Hyperglide cogs to market when their Ergolevers were first made available.

Either way though, the unpredictability of the power transmission during shifting of pre-Hyperglide style cogs makes shifting while off of the saddle somewhat dangerous, unless the rider uses extra leg power to brace their stance on the bike during gear changes under sporting efforts.
For example, I can't imagine power-shifting through a steep, uphill hairpin switchback while passing another rider using any of the lesser cassette types.

[dddd]

As I noted above, there's no problem with the cogs fitting 8/9 Shimano freehubs, other than the overall width issue. In my experience with the C10 spaced M10, the small cog won't engage the splines of an 8/9 freehub at all, and the lock ring won't even start to thread on. I got around this by filing the large cog out to fit deeper on the FH than normal. On the Zipp hub I never had any problems with derailleur contacting the spokes, but it could certainly be an issue with some wheels.

I've noticed that even the older Mavic cassette hubs from the 10s era would easily accept later 11s cassettes with no spoke contact problems and with generous engagement of smallest-cog splines, so I guess that the C10-spaced M10 cassette was intended for use with, and would work fine on, any Mavic rear wheel from at least the start of the 10s Shimano era, 2004 iir.

And of course riders can adapt their style to the level of trust that they have in any particular cassette style, just that one expends more energy in certain shifting scenarios when the drive cannot be counted on to sustain as continuous of a drive, i.e. the rider actually applies some reverse torque with the passive leg during shifts under load to prevent the disruption of their balance.
Maybe not such a big deal in the context of downtube shifting only costing me X-amount of climbing drive when I have to squat down to make a shift from a standing/climbing position.
But then I do sometimes deliberately nudge this bike's rear shift lever using my right knee for a sneaky power-upshift while powering out of the saddle!

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5485/11901519766_4e552d766d_c.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

I believe that Velobase may be off on that, either that or the fact that Shimano did continue to sell lower-end gruppos in certain markets still with downtube shifters until at least the date cited by Velobase.

But Shimano never spec'd a gruppo of any level which included STI levers with Uniglide cogs, and the original 7/8sp Hyperglide chain was actually available at least since 1989, though first for mtb use.

And I believe neither did Campy with their Ergolevers, though I have come across a few bikes setup that way with Campy's older "lettered" style of 1st-gen Cassette cogs that one could re-shuffle the ratios at home with.
But I could be wrong about Campagnolo, since I'm not sure if they had yet brought copies of Shimano's Hyperglide cogs to market when their Ergolevers were first made available.

Either way though, the unpredictability of the power transmission during shifting of pre-Hyperglide style cogs makes shifting while off of the saddle somewhat dangerous, unless the rider uses extra leg power to brace their stance on the bike during gear changes under sporting efforts.
For example, I can't imagine power-shifting through a steep, uphill hairpin switchback while passing another rider using any of the lesser cassette types.

Campagnolo went away from the 'alphabet' cogs in 1994..ERGO started 2 years(+) before that.

Seemed to work great for guys racing, using downtube, index shifters and uniglide...with only one hand on the handlebar...I really don't think shifting uniglide cogs during all out efforts was all that death defying..:)

IMHO, of course..

[taz-t]

I installed the cassette today and pretty much duplicated what the earlier comments said.

Used the 12-25 M10 cassette and installed on an 8 speed era Dura Ace hub.

The cogs would ONLY fit with the numbered side facing in towards the hub. They slid on the free hub perfectly with this orientation but would not go on in the other direction. So, the spline compatibility is a factor.

Using the black 10 speed spacers, only 9 cogs would fit. I did not have ANY room for the final 12 cog with built in spacer. Maybe a new Shimano free hub or other Shimano compatible wheel has a wider free hub but the width is definitely an issue for older Shimano. The only Mavic wheel I have left is an original Cosmic (that I'm looking to sell, not use) so I didn't test the fit on it.

What I'm left with is 9 cogs with Campy 10 speed spacing. I'm going to try this with Campy 10spd shifters and a 10 speed chain. My hope is that every thing will work and I'll have a ghost shift at the small end. I don't spend much time in 53-12 so it shouldn't be a problem.

If it doesn't work, I'll just throw on some Campy wheels and forget about it.

At some point soon, I'll sell off my remaining Shimano wheels since my bikes are all Campy save for one 650b tourer. (hence the experiment and wanting to use a pretty set of DuraAce/Mavic Reflex wheels)

If anyone is interested in buying the 12-27 NIB cassette (with the above noted caveats) send me a note.

- Taz

[oliver1850]

Don't know why the cogs won't go on either way. The cassettes I have here have all 9 splines the same width and spacing. I just tried them on a 7403 hub and they go one either way. Perhaps Mavic changed the spline pattern at some point. If so, I'd say you have the cogs on in the orientation they intended.

I think your 9 cogs spaced for 10 should work fine.

If you have an 8 speed era 16 spoke aluminum Cosmic, I have a friend that might be interested.

[taz-t]

If you have an 8 speed era 16 spoke aluminum Cosmic, I have a friend that might be interested.

I do... front and rear, very good condition with the Mavic blue wheel bags and the special spoke wrenches.

Have him send me a note if interested.

thanks,
Taz