Used Bike Market

[m4rk540]

Prices on used premium or halo bikes are in a free fall. Is it a correction of sorts, are buyers sitting on the sidelines until the great disc debate is settled, is the sport shrinking, are there too many asymmetries between US and EU prices or is there just a glut of nice bikes?

On a related note what's the biggest loss you've taken on a bike or frame?

Parts market is a whole 'nother animal.

[ripvanrando]

N + 1 < N - 1

Doesn't everyone have like 10 bikes?

Demographics, No cash, No demand

[FlashUNC]

Depreciation is a cruel mistress.

Not sure what salad days people remember, but its been a buyers market for a long, long time.

[Jaybee]

Just speaking as a consumer, my "gravel/cross" bike is filling a lot of niches that would have previously taken 3 bikes (road, cross, rigid mtb) to fill. I'm kinda looking for a nicer gravel bike, but I don't imagine I'll be replacing either of my road bikes or my mountain bikes anytime soon.

[cmg]

Just speaking as a consumer, my "gravel/cross" bike is filling a lot of niches that would have previously taken 3 bikes (road, cross, rigid mtb) to fill. I'm kinda looking for a nicer gravel bike, but I don't imagine I'll be replacing either of my road bikes or my mountain bikes anytime soon.

That and the season has ended and or winter is here.

[Kontact]

Aside from the usual supply/demand issues, I have to wonder if there is a problem when people see the bike they were getting ready to spend $6000 on for sale used at $1800. That might pop the bubble enough to make even the used bike unattractive because it clearly has so little value in the market.

Same kind of psychology as why people will more strongly defend a product's faults after they've purchased it.

[fa63]

It is basic economics:

- Supply is outnumbering the demand
- Technology has not only lowered production costs, but also increased competition (e.g., there are no geographical boundaries anymore thanks to forums and Ebay)
- More competition means lower prices

Throw in some consumer psychology, and it is a buyer's market.

[saab2000]

It's been a buyer's market since I got into high end bikes. Back in 2005 or so I got my first Serotta on eBay. I put in a crazy low bid for it and ended up winning the auction. It was a Colorado III that I loved riding for many years though I have since sold it. I have no idea what I got for it but I know that I paid $611, shipped to my house.

That frame was about 2 years old at the time and new was probably around $2500 with the paint job it had.

I bought a 2012 Giant TCR Advanced SL in "Very Good" condition in 2014 for about $900. It's been a fantastic machine.

Both of these were calculated risks on my part. Buying used entails some risk but used bikes are a massive bargain if you know what you want and know know what you're buying and what to look for.

Components seem hold their value better, especially if they're high end and in good shape and sold individually. Other stuff is hard to give away.

I've literally thrown stuff into the dumpster because there was no point in trying to sell it or even offer it for free.

Buy what you like and enjoy it for what it is but don't have any expectation of even coming close to making your money back.

[rccardr]

Buyers market, for sure. I've picked up three superb vintage bikes in the last several days at what I would consider the low side of fair market value. Not steals, but shall we say, not unfair to seller and smile producing for buyer.

[Jeff N.]

1. Most people don't want to pay what something is really worth. They want a "steal".
2. Everyone is broke.

[Clean39T]

It's not just the used market:

https://www.bikegallery.com/product/trek-domane-slr-10-race-shop-limited-295568-1.htm

$12K bike for $6K...

'17 Trek Domane SLR Race Shop Limited with DA9100 Di2 and Aeolus 5 tubulars.

Say what you will about the MSRP, but any way you slice it, that's a nice bike!

[peanutgallery]

Anyone who pours cash into a high end bike and then thinks they're going to turn it after riding it for a while without taking a bath has another thought coming. It's a niche sport, the return on investment is the enjoyment of its use - enjoy it like a fine wine or a needless vacation that was a lot of fun

It could be worse - racing sports cars...horses...a boat...a daughter pursuing a doctorate in philosophy. All of which are way more expensive and have a ROI that will make you cry

[Kontact]

Buy something at used prices and you will be able to turn it around for near what you paid for it.

Brand new bikes aren't for anyone but dedicated buyers (and the rich).

[lhuerta]

Prices on used premium or halo bikes ...

Halo bike? Yes. I googled it but could not find anything. What is a halo bike?

[charliedid]

When has it ever not been a buyers market?

[shovelhd]

when has ever not been a buyers market?

1980-1988

[happycampyer]

When has ever not been a buyers market?
Before the financial crisis. Before 2007-08 or so, the secondhand market was firm enough that people could biy a new bike and sell it a couple of years later at a decent price. Obviously, the brand and model mattered, but I can recall selling a used Cervelo R3-SL for a little over half what I paid for it new bitd. Those days are long gone. Other than Moots and a handful of others, one is hard pressed to get anything close to 50% of new bike cost.

[mhespenheide]

Halo bike? Yes. I googled it but could not find anything. What is a halo bike?

Anything that's super-high-end, but usually used in the sense of super-high-end bikes from companies like Trek or Specialized, who seem to hope that their TdF (or pricier) bikes [1] inspire loyalty amongst their current owners [2] lend cachet to their down-market siblings and/or [3] lend street-cred to the brand as a whole.

[Clean39T]

Anything that's super-high-end, but usually used in the sense of super-high-end bikes from companies like Trek or Specialized, who seem to hope that their TdF (or pricier) bikes [1] inspire loyalty amongst their current owners [2] lend cachet to their down-market siblings and/or [3] lend street-cred to the brand as a whole.

see also - the Domane SLR RSL I posted above :D

[Clean39T]

What is the first question pretty much every listing gets in the classifieds?

"So, can you fit 32s on that??" :fight:

When the shift to graveling happened...and to endurance geometry before that...and the rims got wider and the headsets got integrated and the head tubes got tall and the shifting got electric...well, a whole class of bikes suddenly became obsolete to a certain trend-following potential buyer. That just means the depreciation curve got a whole lot steeper for a certain class of bikes - so much so that moving anything with an external headset, 25c tire (max) clearance, pre 5800/6800/9000 Shimano, etc. is a near impossibility unless there is a cult following or the price is low enough that value shoppers are willing to snatch them up and wring out more use by appreciating them for what they are...and I think what others were hinting at above is that by doing so you can limit your downside depreciation risk (someone else already took it). Also important there though is that if you don't really enjoy the used stuff you are buying and actually want the newest technology, you need to pay up for it, enjoy it, and not be surprised when it loses half its value in a couple years (or 2/3, or more...).

Does anyone buying a $50K new car think it will be worth $40K in 5 years?

Or when buying a $20K used car that it'll still be worth $17.5K after 4 years and 60K miles are put on it?

No. They don't (or they shouldn't).

But will a $1K car that runs and gets decent gas mileage still be worth $1K in 3 years? Probably.

[m_sasso]

Sorry miss-post!

[paredown]

Buy used, sell used..

Even so, the prices were at their lowest during the recession when I had to fire-sale my CT-1, my Peter Mooney and some other stuff. Either of those are selling for a lot more used that what I managed.

I agree with Clean39, the shift to wider tires has cut into the market value of otherwise fine bikes--the CSi I picked up this summer was an absolute bargain, but 25s are going to be the limit AFAIK.

[AngryScientist]

couple thoughts:

1) just like a car, boat or motorcycle - a new bike is only new once. after that it's a used bike, no matter how clean.

2) a huge part of the value of a custom bike is the custom bit. you're buying someone else's bike used.

3) there are just too many nice bikes out there right now used. browsing ebay and the PSAs that pop up here reveal just a TON of nice bikes moving around the used market.

[El Chaba]

The bike business is seriously sick. The market has been shrinking for years now and the industry continues to push prices further into the stratosphere. Fewer people have all of the money. The people who are buying these halo bikes have no interest in anything used. I used to be interested in the latest new equipment, but I lost interest with the "change for the sake of change" that took over in the mid 2000's. My interest in the market now is one primarily of entertainment...When and how spectacularly will it explode? The used market is a discerning one. Bikes of REAL value hold that value. Have you priced an excellent condition C40, C50 or DeRosa King (10 years old or so)? NOS Campagnolo or Shimano 10 speed parts?

[joosttx]

Last two bikes I have sold are a new Colnago C60 frame and a vintage Colnago Super cross bike I have lost $700 from my purchase prices (slightly more the 10% deprecaition) . So I am not sure the bike market is in the tank. Maybe certain bikes are in the tank.

I sold the Super on PL and it took forever which for less than $1500. For the C60 I sold eleswhere for $500 less than I paid for (bought it in Europe). PL is not the place to sell expense stuff for a number of reasons.

I dont expect to sell my Festka here even though you cannot find one for sale anywhere else.

[glepore]

Lots of factors-market saturation, people wanting disc brakes, etc.
End of year liquidations, everyone knows that Cannondale, Trek et. al. offer killer deals at end of year.

High end used bikes have always been like cars. Huge premium for new.

Iconic stuff is largely a matter of how long you want to wait and how hard you shop. Colnago's, for example. C40's are routinely listed in the 2-3k range-there's a nice B stay 53 Mapei on ebay now-but if you're willing to wait and shop there are deals. I stole a 52 with odd open mold wheels for a grand this year, the frame was flawless but absent the oem fork. But yeah, I would agree that the market is a little soft at the moment, but the new bike market is soft at the high high end as well. Custom stuff still does ok, but that's a different ballgame.

Some stuff the market is aging out of, unless its Eroica eligible-much like vintage race cars, the ones that are event eligible are worth much much more than the stuff you can only do track days with.

[54ny77]

used high end bike pricing is an ankle grabber.

buddy of mine just picked up a bigbikco. rig for something like $4k from the original owner. it was about $15k or so when he bought it retail. maybe a year or so old, if that.

http://www.parkeology.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/moon_river-fletch.jpeg

[charliedid]

1980-1988

Yeah well there were like 4 things to buy back then too.

[charliedid]

Before the financial crisis. Before 2007-08 or so, the secondhand market was firm enough that people could biy a new bike and sell it a couple of years later at a decent price. Obviously, the brand and model mattered, but I can recall selling a used Cervelo R3-SL for a little over half what I paid for it new bitd. Those days are long gone. Other than Moots and a handful of others, one is hard pressed to get anything close to 50% of new bike cost.

I guess if you consider 40-50% a buyers market. I can't say I have ever seen bikes as any sort of investment or long term value outside their usefulness as bikes. I guess I always sold bikes to people I knew for a really good price because I got them at a really good price.

[batman1425]

Last two bikes I have sold are a new Colnago C60 frame and a vintage Colnago Super cross bike I have lost $700 from my purchase prices (slightly more the 10% deprecaition) . So I am not sure the bike market is in the tank. Maybe certain bikes are in the tank.

I sold the Super on PL and it took forever which for less than $1500. For the C60 I sold eleswhere for $500 less than I paid for (bought it in Europe). PL is not the place to sell expense stuff for a number of reasons.

I dont expect to sell my Festka here even though you cannot find one for sale anywhere else.

I'm not sure I agree. I see lots of high end gear move around these boards. It depends if it is the kind of bike that the people here are into. This is an enthusiast space with particular tastes at the top end. See how long a Firefly, or a SV lasts here for anything resembling a fair price.

A $6-7K used bike is a hard sell anywhere with what you can get new (even new custom) available for that price. The reality is, you can get 95-99% of the performance of anything that retails over $8k for $3-4k with some patience these days. And you could do the same with very gently used for even less. Unless you must have new, there is incredible value on the used market.

Also, rare doesn't automatically make something valuable.

[charliedid]

Last two bikes I have sold are a new Colnago C60 frame and a vintage Colnago Super cross bike I have lost $700 from my purchase prices (slightly more the 10% deprecaition) . So I am not sure the bike market is in the tank. Maybe certain bikes are in the tank.

I sold the Super on PL and it took forever which for less than $1500. For the C60 I sold eleswhere for $500 less than I paid for (bought it in Europe). PL is not the place to sell expense stuff for a number of reasons.

I dont expect to sell my Festka here even though you cannot find one for sale anywhere else.

Yes, everything has it's outliers.

[Freddy Merckx]

go on...

[huck*this]

I have sold many highend bits and frames and in my book, I may be wrong, but I don't look at the price I paid for it. I see what I can get in return at the point of the sale. Example C60 frame for $2100 I can get a great deal on another bike at this time. So under sell to get the deal on the next bike. The C60 doesn't owe me anything, not sitting on a credit card or financed. People that get hung up on what they spend on the initial investment end up listing too high and the stuff sits and sits.

Or the people that are dumb enough to use those plastic card things that increase your investment month to month. I can't believe the people that would finance a bike. My LBS and I'm sure yours, advertise the finance rate now along with the bike. This is why I think the big brands reached the stratospheric prices they are asking these days. It has turned into the Invicta watch scam, $5000 MSRP yours for $199.99. In my eyes that Trek I can put together for under $4000. The parts are a dime a dozen.

In the end timing and the market decides how your bike sells oh and geometry!

[AngryScientist]

It has turned into the Invicta watch scam, $5000 MSRP yours for $199.99.

what's the invicta watch scam all about?

[huck*this]

what's the invicta watch scam all about?


Maybe scam was the wrong word to use but that's what I feel it is. Lets call it a "sales tactic." Inflated MSRP to show the purchaser they are actually getting a good deal at the price that it should be at in the 1st place. My numbers were over exaggerated but just making a point.

Home shopping networks are notorious for this "tactic" also.

Example: https://www.amazon.com/Invicta-17205-AVIATOR-Ion-Plated-Watch/dp/B00J082Q64/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1512753706&sr=8-8&keywords=invicta+watches+for+men

Another example: https://www.bikegallery.com/product/trek-domane-slr-10-race-shop-limited-295568-1.htm

[batman1425]

I have sold many highend bits and frames and in my book, I may be wrong, but I don't look at the price I paid for it. I see what I can get in return at the point of the sale. Example C60 frame for $2100 I can get a great deal on another bike at this time. So under sell to get the deal on the next bike. The C60 doesn't owe me anything, not sitting on a credit card or financed. People that get hung up on what they spend on the initial investment end up listing too high and the stuff sits and sits.

^^^This. I don't typically buy bike stuff based on resale value. Like any good with a value depreciation schedule, I buy it for the value that it provides me and keep it as long as the value it provides me is > its current real monetary value. Once that balance flips and its worth more as cash value than enjoyment, it gets moved along and I repurpose the funding to something else that I enjoy more. TBO - I think most of the folks here use a similar strategy and why we see so many good deals on nice gear.

[batman1425]

Maybe scam was the wrong word to use but that's what I feel it is. Lets call it a "sales tactic." Inflated MSRP to show the purchaser they are actually getting a good deal at the price that it should be at in the 1st place. My numbers were over exaggerated but just making a point.

Home shopping networks are notorious for this "tactic" also.

Example: https://www.amazon.com/Invicta-17205-AVIATOR-Ion-Plated-Watch/dp/B00J082Q64/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1512753706&sr=8-8&keywords=invicta+watches+for+men

Another example: https://www.bikegallery.com/product/trek-domane-slr-10-race-shop-limited-295568-1.htm

Mens wear also notorious for this practice. Ever wonder why JoSABank et al. seems to offer regular 12 for the price 1 sale or whatever crazy deal? They make a boat load on the folks that are either forced to or too impatient to wait and buy at full price and still make solid profit on their "sale" margins.

[huck*this]

Mens wear also notorious for this practice. Ever wonder why JoSABank et al. seems to offer regular 12 for the price 1 sale or whatever crazy deal? They make a boat load on the folks that are either forced to or too impatient to wait and buy at full price and still make solid profit on their "sale" margins.

Correct! I also think there was an investigation on them due to this. JUNK and makes me mad.

[54ny77]

No way man, for $199 you can get TWELVE pairs of socks, THREE trousers, EIGHT ties, FOUR suits, TWO pairs of shoes, FOUR belts and TWENTY SIX handkerchiefs. That's value.

Correct! I also think there was an investigation on them due to this. JUNK and makes me mad.

[Clean39T]

In my eyes that Trek I can put together for under $4000. The parts are a dime a dozen.



DA9100 Di2 = $2500 (US bought w warranty)
Bontrager Tubs = $2200 (US made w warranty)
CF Bar/Stem/Saddle = $400

That’s $5100, so where do I get the ProTour frameset w warranty for $900?

Granted, everything can be had for less w no warranty and slightly used, but for what it is, that Trek is a solid buy.

Also, they offer 12 months no interest - but if you’re late paying it off, get ready for 24% compounded from Day 1.

[beeatnik]

That Trek is a piece of mind deal. And most cats who buy it will ride it for an average of 15 years. So into their 70's. Lifetime bika right there.

[Blown Reek]

Just wait until you see the high-end frames that I'm going to post in the Classifieds shortly. I'll be doing my part to soften the market.

[huck*this]

Just wait until you see the high-end frames that I'm going to post in the Classifieds shortly. I'll be doing my part to soften the market.


:banana::banana::banana:

Good dude right here!

[crankles]

Just wait until you see the high-end frames that I'm going to post in the Classifieds shortly. I'll be doing my part to soften the market.

I wish I hadn't read that... ;-)

[Blown Reek]

I wish I hadn't read that... ;-)

57.5 top tubers get ready.

[crankles]

57.5 top tubers get ready.

oh dear god.

[Clean39T]

oh dear god.

57.5 top tubers get ready.

The suspense is killing me...

[Blown Reek]

The suspense is killing me...

Something that sounds like TIME Scion.

Something that is made by TIME that rhymes with Du Monde (the 1990 varietal)

Something that is chartreuse with a matching stem that comes from the House of Chris King.

A frameset that might or not be a mint condition Ritchey Logic.

All mint condition. All in their respective boxes for shipping.

All stupid cheap. Prepare your knives.

[Clean39T]

Something that sounds like TIME Scion.

Something that is made by TIME that rhymes with Du Monde (the 1990 varietal)

Something that is chartreuse with a matching stem that comes from the House of Chris King.

A frameset that might or not be a mint condition Ritchey Logic.

All mint condition. All in their respective boxes for shipping.

All stupid cheap. Prepare your knives.

All probably too small for me - but I'll prepare some drool anyway...

[KJMUNC]

Wealthy people buy high end bikes and do one of two things with them:

1. they're serious cyclists and ride the hell outta them, then sell them a year later because they're rich

2. they ride them <5 times, find out that cycling "makes my butt hurt" and never ride it again....then they sell it off for cheap a year later

On top of that, if you race even half-way seriously you get all kinds of crazy "pro-deal" access and those folks sell those bikes at year end for less than they paid, which is always waaaay below retail or even the normal used market.

that means there's plenty of options for folks like me who have patience and don't care to ride the latest and greatest. You can get some pretty incredible bikes for cheap.....often even those so-called "halo" bikes that are now 5yrs old.

[tuxbailey]

Prepare your knwives.

Fixed That for You.

[zzy]

Modern carbon bikes just don't hold value like steel frames from marquee builders used to. Plus OEMs keep trying to convince people that the latest and greatest this year is 34.6% better and laterally stiffer, which was 23.7% better than later year, etc. Factor in that people want the latest fad now (discs, rando bags, fat tires) and it further devalues old inventory. Bikes are getting pretty close to as light as they're gonna get (1000g wheelsets, 700g frames) so I really wonder how much 'new tech' they're gonna squeeze outta bike manufacturing over the long run. Also frankly high end bikes are no where near as beautiful and well painted as the used to be. It's all boring black bikes with shiny black parts, each more forgettable than the last.

[Clean39T]

Went and rode that Domane SLR RSL today...

The decouplers felt awesome on heavily broken pavement and out of the saddle climbing was great...but...my legs rubbed the honkin wide TT/ST juncture on every pedal stroke and I’m not knock-kneed...plus, the 60cm felt small to me compared to my Davidson...

Can’t know till you try sometimes.

[adub]

LOL!
Also like the "MSRP" of every North American vehicle!

Maybe scam was the wrong word to use but that's what I feel it is. Lets call it a "sales tactic." Inflated MSRP to show the purchaser they are actually getting a good deal at the price that it should be at in the 1st place. My numbers were over exaggerated but just making a point.

Home shopping networks are notorious for this "tactic" also.

Example: https://www.amazon.com/Invicta-17205-AVIATOR-Ion-Plated-Watch/dp/B00J082Q64/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1512753706&sr=8-8&keywords=invicta+watches+for+men

Another example: https://www.bikegallery.com/product/trek-domane-slr-10-race-shop-limited-295568-1.htm

[Iansir]

Went and rode that Domane SLR RSL today...

The decouplers felt awesome on heavily broken pavement and out of the saddle climbing was great...but...my legs rubbed the honkin wide TT/ST juncture on every pedal stroke and I’m not knock-kneed...plus, the 60cm felt small to me compared to my Davidson...

Can’t know till you try sometimes.

Any thoughts on stiffness or comfort compared to your Davidson?
My Domane team issue was just hit by a BMW, so I am interested in comparisons. I want to replace it with metal...

[Heisenberg]

Went and rode that Domane SLR RSL today...

The decouplers felt awesome on heavily broken pavement and out of the saddle climbing was great...but...my legs rubbed the honkin wide TT/ST juncture on every pedal stroke and I’m not knock-kneed...plus, the 60cm felt small to me compared to my Davidson...

Can’t know till you try sometimes.

'Cause it's low AF. Unapologetic race bike, like, more than anything else you can buy off the peg today.

[Clean39T]

Any thoughts on stiffness or comfort compared to your Davidson?
My Domane team issue was just hit by a BMW, so I am interested in comparisons. I want to replace it with metal...

The Domane was definitely one smooth ride - there's just no getting around the fact that the iso speed stuff works just as it should - the shop had the tubs pumped up to 100psi too, so it wasn't about the tires. My Davidson is on the stiffer side for what generally looks like a traditional titanium frame - it has 1" chain stays and the fork is pretty stiff too - plus I have a stout stem and Deda M35 alloy bars on it. Getting back on it after the Domane, I could feel every crack in the road on both ends of the bike. Good? Bad? Not so certain. Just different. If you are used to the way the Domane rode, anything is going to be a change. A metal bike will be a bit heavier and you'll probably need wider tires/rims to get back some of the float you're used to from your Domane. Using a flexy carbon seatpost could be a good option though too.

[Clean39T]

'Cause it's low AF. Unapologetic race bike, like, more than anything else you can buy off the peg today.

Yeah, I know what a low position feels like. It feeling small was probably just on the setup. I didn't want to make them slam the stem or ask for something longer than the 110mm that was on there just for a test ride. Plus the bars were 44cm and I ride 42cm. The ETT is 59cm off 73/73 angles. Which means it would probably fit me just fine if I had set it up the way I would normally with a 120mm stem and 18cm of effective head tube length. In looking at the geometry numbers, it's important to note how low the BB is too. Also, the tubulars were taped, not glued, and had a bump at the valve that made a different resonance as the wheel went around. The Di2 however was flawless...as expected.

[batman1425]

Wealthy people buy high end bikes and do one of two things with them:

1. they're serious cyclists and ride the hell outta them, then sell them a year later because they're rich

2. they ride them <5 times, find out that cycling "makes my butt hurt" and never ride it again....then they sell it off for cheap a year later

On top of that, if you race even half-way seriously you get all kinds of crazy "pro-deal" access and those folks sell those bikes at year end for less than they paid, which is always waaaay below retail or even the normal used market.

that means there's plenty of options for folks like me who have patience and don't care to ride the latest and greatest. You can get some pretty incredible bikes for cheap.....often even those so-called "halo" bikes that are now 5yrs old.

^^^This sums it up nicely. The last really good pro-deal I had when I was racing lots years ago got us top of the range Giant's for silly low prices. We'd sell them off at the end of the season for a few hundred dollar loss then do the same thing next year. It was like renting a top of the line bike for $2-300 for each season. Would never be able to do that at retail prices, but we got a great deal, and so did the next guy.

[fiamme red]

There are so many really nice vintage bikes on Craigslist now for $300-$500.

This 1998 Klein race bike (https://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/bik/d/1998-klein-stage-comp-road/6383855943.html), with Ultegra/105 and Mavic Reflex wheels, has been listed for almost a month, and at $480 is still not selling.

[ultraman6970]

Too much new and not that new cr@p moving around, to me means that the industry is killing itself because buyers are not jumping to the new stuff wagons anymore as was before.

[beeatnik]

There are so many really nice vintage bikes on Craigslist now for $300-$500.

This 1998 Klein race bike (https://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/bik/d/1998-klein-stage-comp-road/6383855943.html), with Ultegra/105 and Mavic Reflex wheels, has been listed for almost a month, and at $480 is still not selling.


7 years ago that thing would have sold within hours in LA or Brooklyn.

[C40_guy]

N + 1 < N - 1

Doesn't everyone have like 10 bikes?


If my wife is subscribed to this forum, I cannot answer that question. :)

[texbike]

It's already been said multiple times in this thread, but the bottom line is supply and demand. The supply of really good bikes continues to increase significantly, while the demand for them doesn't. It's that simple.

In the few pockets where the supply of a brand is constrained relative to the demand, the prices are more stable (Sachs, Moots, Vanilla, etc).

Texbike

[charliedid]

7 years ago that thing would have sold within hours in LA or Brooklyn.

Or Chicago.

Now there are piles of them hanging in apartments on (super cool) repurposed bike part hangers in need of $225 worth of repairs.

:-)