CX Fork recommendations to tame chatter: Swiss Cross

[Lewis Moon]

For the first time in seven CX bikes I can't tame the canti brake shudder/judder/chatter. I've done pretty much all of the list of things folks say you need to do: short brake blocks toed WAY in, canti brakes with the springs out front, no play on the posts, long drop cable hanger, REALLY tight headset...
From what I've gleaned, the stock Ritchey Swiss Cross fork is known for this. IMHO the carbon fork is too light and flexi.
I use this bike as my commuter and having the front brake go all "anti lock" while in traffic is way uncool. What forks are out there that are more stout or at least have a brake hole to mount a crown hanger? I had no problems at all on either of my Ridleys, which had 4ZA forks or my Raleigh Hodala which had an Enve fork. The others had steel forks. All of them I could do stoppies on without chatter.
I would like very much to stay with cantis, as I have never had a problem with them before this. I'll use V brakes if I have to ( I really don't like the feel) but I'd rather address the problem than put a band-aid on it. I'll use discs if someone wants to give me a new bike.

[oldpotatoe]

For the first time in seven CX bikes I can't tame the canti brake shudder/judder/chatter. I've done pretty much all of the list of things folks say you need to do: short brake blocks toed WAY in, canti brakes with the springs out front, no play on the posts, long drop cable hanger, REALLY tight headset...
From what I've gleaned, the stock Ritchey Swiss Cross fork is known for this. IMHO the carbon fork is too light and flexi.
I use this bike as my commuter and having the front brake go all "anti lock" while in traffic is way uncool. What forks are out there that are more stout or at least have a brake hole to mount a crown hanger? I had no problems at all on either of my Ridleys, which had 4ZA forks or my Raleigh Hodala which had an Enve fork. The others had steel forks. All of them I could do stoppies on without chatter.
I would like very much to stay with cantis, as I have never had a problem with them before this. I'll use V brakes if I have to ( I really don't like the feel) but I'd rather address the problem than put a band-aid on it. I'll use discs if someone wants to give me a new bike.

‘Mullet’ it with a v brake front. Some shorty ones from Tektro are only about $20.

[nooneline]

The Ritchey fork is a very nice fork, but yeah, it's got this issue. Some of the other forks you mention are oversized lower bearings, which provides some additional stiffness from the crown into the legs that, I've noticed, helps reduce the leg flex that leads to chatter.

If you want to save money, put a mini-v on the front and see how you like it.

If you want to spend money, put an Enve fork on the front and see how you like it.

If you want to spend even more money, get a new bike.

[Geekonbike]

Agree, use the Front V Brake. The'yre a little on/off type braking but no brake shudder.

Or you could sell me your ritchey carbon fork...I use V brakes anyway. :)

[AngryScientist]

which version do you have?

granted that i weigh 130#, but my newer ritchey with the integrated headset and carbon fork has zero chatter in any and all stopping conditions with Paul cantilever brakes...

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-T0cPr-tgKQ0/WdtyoQWc9EI/AAAAAAAAC6I/TSGX5bht49U9FwR9j44X6qNcg9nXX0auACLcBGAs/s1140/IMG_1431.JPG

[Lewis Moon]

which version do you have?

granted that i weigh 130#, but my newer ritchey with the integrated headset and carbon fork has zero chatter in any and all stopping conditions with Paul cantilever brakes...

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-T0cPr-tgKQ0/WdtyoQWc9EI/AAAAAAAAC6I/TSGX5bht49U9FwR9j44X6qNcg9nXX0auACLcBGAs/s1140/IMG_1431.JPG

I have the straight fork and a LOOOOOONG head tube (59 frame). I've heard that short head tubes are easier to tame chatter on.

[jtbadge]

Get a Paul Mini Moto and be done with it.

[Lewis Moon]

The Ritchey fork is a very nice fork, but yeah, it's got this issue. Some of the other forks you mention are oversized lower bearings, which provides some additional stiffness from the crown into the legs that, I've noticed, helps reduce the leg flex that leads to chatter.

If you want to save money, put a mini-v on the front and see how you like it.

If you want to spend money, put an Enve fork on the front and see how you like it.

If you want to spend even more money, get a new bike.

The X-Fire I had didn't have a tapered steerer, the Hodala and the X-Night did. None of them had a problem. I believe the X-Fire had an Alu steerer though. EDIT: Non tapered but a carbon steerer. I tell ya, I love the Ritchey but I'd trade it straight up for a canti X-Fire or a canti Raleigh RXC.

[Lewis Moon]

Get a Paul Mini Moto and be done with it.

IMHO...those are the ugliest brakes on the planet. I'll go with TRPs if I need to.

[echelon_john]

Worth a try for $15 shipped, plus half a pack of handlebar tape and a longer cable...

https://www.amazon.com/Tektro-926A-Mini-V-Brake-Black/dp/B002F91TP4

[Gummee]

I still get chatter with an older Easton fork with mini-Vs (TRP 8.4s) so they aren't a panacea

It was worse with my Ouzo Pro tho

HTH

M

[AngryScientist]

what about a brake booster? do these work at all to stiffen things up?

http://tfe.me/image/480_345/brakeboostermain.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/be/8a/bd/be8abdc54f8a17ebe43e24c594543af3.jpg

[echelon_john]

Not with the kind of flex he's getting. The long distance from the cable stop to the straddle cable + fork flex means the effective cable tension is fluctuating as the fork flexes, brake grabs, fork relaxes, brake lets go...vicious circle.

what about a brake booster? do these work at all to stiffen things up?

http://tfe.me/image/480_345/brakeboostermain.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/be/8a/bd/be8abdc54f8a17ebe43e24c594543af3.jpg

[Lewis Moon]

Not with the kind of flex he's getting. The long distance from the cable stop to the straddle cable + fork flex means the effective cable tension is fluctuating as the fork flexes, brake grabs, fork relaxes, brake lets go...vicious circle.
Exactly.

[AngryScientist]

Exactly.

got it. how about one of these? is your fork drilled?

(just throwing out some suggestions...)

https://media-cdn.ribblecycles.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1120x840/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/r/propic01304668259_1.jpg

[p nut]

For a commuter, would a cheap Surly or Soma steel cross fork suffice?

[mistermo]

Lewis, I hear you and have had your problem. Having sold you a frame in the past, I know we're the same size. Having attempted all sorts of solutions, including VBrakes, pad tow, etc, I found the best solution has been to use a fork with the cable hanger in the fork crown. A Whisky 7 canti fork has the hole you need, and is made with "beefier" carbon than the Ritchey. My Moots fork also has a hole in the crown. With the hole in the fork crown, you can mount the crown cable hanger as Angry suggests. It shortens the cable distance and the eliminates the shudder effect.

Some forks are better than others. ENVE is very good and is the best, non drilled canti fork (I've found). Reynolds and Ritchey's were bad. AlphaQs were modest, but not as good as ENVE. The crown solution is the only one that's worked consistently. I've considered a "mullet" set up, but never tried it. I have a BNIB Ritchey WCS disc fork with straight 1 1/8" steerer I'd sell for a reasonable price if you want to keep the system all-Ritchey and try the mullet setup.

[Ken Robb]

Just a comment: my Hampsten has Alpha Q Cross Fork and Paul Neo Retro canti brake with hanger mounted on headset and it never shudders.I'm not smart enough to tell you what to do. :-)

[Lewis Moon]

For a commuter, would a cheap Surly or Soma steel cross fork suffice? It's only a commuter because I don't want to ride my Russ Denny Masi in the dark. This is my gravel/CX race bike.

[Lewis Moon]

Lewis, I hear you and have had your problem. Having sold you a frame in the past, I know we're the same size. Having attempted all sorts of solutions, including VBrakes, pad tow, etc, I found the best solution has been to use a fork with the cable hanger in the fork crown. A Whisky 7 canti fork has the hole you need, and is made with "beefier" carbon than the Ritchey. My Moots fork also has a hole in the crown. With the hole in the fork crown, you can mount the crown cable hanger as Angry suggests. It shortens the cable distance and the eliminates the shudder effect.

Some forks are better than others. ENVE is very good and is the best, non drilled canti fork (I've found). Reynolds and Ritchey's were bad. AlphaQs were modest, but not as good as ENVE. The crown solution is the only one that's worked consistently. I've considered a "mullet" set up, but never tried it. I have a BNIB Ritchey WCS disc fork with straight 1 1/8" steerer I'd sell for a reasonable price if you want to keep the system all-Ritchey and try the mullet setup.
Thanks for the info on the Whiskey. A crown hanger is definitely one of the best solutions. Sven Nys spec'ed one on his Trek the last year he rode cantis. I don't know why they don't spec them more often.

[chiasticon]

My Moots fork also has a hole in the crown. With the hole in the fork crown, you can mount the crown cable hanger as Angry suggests. It shortens the cable distance and the eliminates the shudder effect.

Some forks are better than others. ENVE is very good and is the best, non drilled canti fork (I've found). I agree with both of these. I have a Moots with the crown mounted hanger and no shudder. and an Enve with a Paul Funky Monkey hanger and no shudder. granted, I have a 125mm head tube (plus external headset) though...

also I'm using Avid Shorty Ultimates with both setups, fwiw.

[colbyh]

Isn't the Swiss Cross head tube 1-1/8"? If so I think Ritchey and Whisky are the only current manufacturers making a decent carbon canti fork that would fit. The Whisky would look great on that bike.

[Lewis Moon]

I agree with both of these. I have a Moots with the crown mounted hanger and no shudder. and an Enve with a Paul Funky Monkey hanger and no shudder. granted, I have a 125mm head tube (plus external headset) though...

also I'm using Avid Shorty Ultimates with both setups, fwiw.

ASUs have the spring in front of the brake, which makes it stiffer. My go to cantis.

[mistermo]

Isn't the Swiss Cross head tube 1-1/8"? If so I think Ritchey and Whisky are the only current manufacturers making a decent carbon canti fork that would fit. The Whisky would look great on that bike.

This is true for both canti and disc, assuming mullet. Both Lewis and I ride X Large frames and the effect is exaggerated on larger frames. Steel forks are OK, but carbon forks have always caused me problems. I suppose I could lose weight, but that's not working either.

[pavel]

Fork mount hanger and try the green Swiss stops.

[Lewis Moon]

Fork mount hanger and try the green Swiss stops.

Why the green pads?

[DfCas]

I've got a Ritchey cross comp fork with a drilled crown for sale here. never any chatter using the crown mounted stop. it is as new.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=211856

[Gummee]

Thanks for the info on the Whiskey. A crown hanger is definitely one of the best solutions. Sven Nys spec'ed one on his Trek the last year he rode cantis. I don't know why they don't spec them more often.

Actually, that fork comes that way from Trek. My Boone has the same setup

As an alternative: go disc in the front. Better braking in the nasties and no fork shudder!

M

[GRAVELBIKE]

‘Mullet’ it with a v brake front. Some shorty ones from Tektro are only about $20.

What he said. Mini-v brake all the things.

[type2sam]

Crown-mounted hanger solved the problem on my steel-forked Double Cross (with a 215mm head tube). Could never get great performance out of the cantis (FSA) I had no matter how I arranged the straddle cable. Eventually I sold it, picked up a cross bike with mini-V's and I'm in heaven.