Cyclist Hit & Killed by a Tesla in the UK

[MattTuck]

I know we discussed Tesla and their autopilot before, so this seemed relevant, if still a tragedy.

Still investigating whether autopilot was engaged.

http://road.cc/content/news/232332-durham-cyclist-may-be-worlds-first-die-collision-tesla-%E2%80%93-unclear-if-it-was

[Tickdoc]

oof. I worry about this with just lane assist.

[Kontact]

Does lane assist have trouble seeing cyclists?

Human drivers certainly seem to have trouble seeing cyclists.

[marciero]

As always, Tragic. Also disturbing to read the claims/estimates of poor performance classifying objects- 1% of cyclists, 30% of cars- from the Stanford robotics researchers in the linked article. My thinking has always been that self-driving cars will make the roads safer.

[BobO]

As always, Tragic. Also disturbing to read the claims/estimates of poor performance classifying objects- 1% of cyclists, 30% of cars- from the Stanford robotics researchers in the linked article. My thinking has always been that self-driving cars will make the roads safer. But getting ahead of myself. We dont know if auto-pilot was engaged.

Engineering of the "new" always requires some real world testing to fine tune the parameters of the designs. There's always something there that you can't accurately predict until exposed to actual conditions. This is part of the reason why the large automakers have off-road test facilities. Although lately with many different products it appears that the end users are becoming the beta testers.

[tuscanyswe]

Engineering of the "new" always requires some real world testing to fine tune the parameters of the designs. There's always something there that you can't accurately predict until exposed to actual conditions. This is part of the reason why the large automakers have off-road test facilities. Although lately with many different products it appears that the end users are becoming the beta testers.

Hey its only lives

[ultraman6970]

If the idiot was playing or looking at the phone at that minute... of course the driver was going to have problems looking at the road.

Does lane assist have trouble seeing cyclists?

Human drivers certainly seem to have trouble seeing cyclists.

[BobO]

Hey its only lives

There's always going to be a failure rate. The objective of engineering and testing is to bring that failure rate within acceptable tolerances, which again, is greater than zero. They question here is, has Tesla narrowed their failure rate acceptably prior to unleashing their product into the wild? If not, the ramifications in terms of liability could be quite extreme.

[zetroc]

I'm not interested in participating in an experiment that could cost me my life without giving my consent.

[pasadena]

...

[makoti]

Does lane assist have trouble seeing cyclists?

Human drivers certainly seem to have trouble seeing cyclists.

A link in the article: http://road.cc/content/news/230853-semi-autonomous-bmw-will-%E2%80%98fight-driver%E2%80%99-deliver-close-passes-cyclists

It appears that it will fight the driver trying to give enough room. Wonderful.

[Kontact]

A link in the article: http://road.cc/content/news/230853-semi-autonomous-bmw-will-%E2%80%98fight-driver%E2%80%99-deliver-close-passes-cyclists

It appears that it will fight the driver trying to give enough room. Wonderful.

The article indicates it is a Tesla problem, rather than universal to all vehicles with lane assist.

[makoti]

The article indicates it is a Tesla problem, rather than universal to all vehicles with lane assist.

"A recent review of the BMW G32 640iGT 2017 by Honest John (link is external) reveals that when set to semi-autonomously follow road markings, the car will force drivers to execute close passes of cyclists unless they use their indicator."

Not only Tesla.

[shovelhd]

As I've said all along, I will bet that the logic in these systems will prioritize protecting the occupants at all costs. If comes down to Hal .vs. something in the way, a cyclist is no different than a squirrel, turkey, or possum.

[Vientomas]

"Progress" will dictate that cyclists will be categorized as road hazards and will no longer be allowed to utilize roadways. Robotic vehicle trumps (no pun intended) humanoid cyclist. Hope ya'll have a nice MUT system nearby. :eek:

[ripvanrando]

As I've said all along, I will bet that the logic in these systems will prioritize protecting the occupants at all costs. If comes down to Hal .vs. something in the way, a cyclist is no different than a squirrel, turkey, or possum.

+1

Until a few highly publicized and expensive civil lawsuit are won, unfortunately.

Not a autonomous driver fanboy here.

[BobO]

"Progress" will dictate that cyclists will be categorized as road hazards and will no longer be allowed to utilize roadways. Robotic vehicle trumps (no pun intended) humanoid cyclist. Hope ya'll have a nice MUT system nearby. :eek:

The MUTs here are still more dangerous than the roads.

[sipmeister]

Very sad to hear. Guess they rode off into the sunset?
I really don't see the appeal or attraction to electric cars. I hate charging my bike computer, lights, phone, etc. It's inconvenient yet a necessity. Better than batteries I guess. But with a car like this, it's regularly being charged when not in use. That's inconvenient. Not to mention, that energy to charge the car came from somewhere. A coal plant, a gas plant, a nuclear plant, wind power, or a hydroelectric dam. Somewhere a fossil fuel was consumed in order to create energy. Somewhere nature was harnessed to create power. With more electric cars, we will increase the demand on all these plants. And they want to reduce emissions, or demand on those plants too? Then fewer people will be "driving" and more will be walking/biking. Guess we'll be walking to grammys for Christmas?
And then there's Tesla's heavily government subsidized business model. People paying taxes so the government can hand out subsidies to those buying an electric car. Pathetic. I'm just going to keep shaking my head and remain content with my Civic.

[Anarchist]

"A recent review of the BMW G32 640iGT 2017 by Honest John (link is external) reveals that when set to semi-autonomously follow road markings, the car will force drivers to execute close passes of cyclists unless they use their indicator."

Not only Tesla.

I have a Ford with lane assist - same thing. the car fights you unless you put the signal indicator on.

Remarkably stupid system.

[pasadena]

As I've said all along, I will bet that the logic in these systems will prioritize protecting the occupants at all costs. If comes down to Hal .vs. something in the way, a cyclist is no different than a squirrel, turkey, or possum.

I read something about that, and it's true. In fact, they do prioritize occupants and will run over pedestrians, and cyclists in favor of "saving" occupants.
What qualifies as "saving" is a big question to me. When does the equation make it okay to run into bystanders?

[vqdriver]

erm. why do they have to decide who/what gets hit at all? are they not capable of tracking obstacles and simply slowing down? i get if something darts out into the road the car will opt not to veer into oncoming traffic, but it can still hit the brakes.

and fwiw, this is about autopilot, not electric cars. this incident happens to be a tesla but there's gas cars with this 'feature' as well.

[numbskull]

"Progress" will dictate that cyclists will be categorized as road hazards and will no longer be allowed to utilize roadways. Robotic vehicle trumps (no pun intended) humanoid cyclist.

Yup. That appears highly likely in the not very distant future. There are way more drivers and passengers than there are cyclists. If technology exists that makes roads safer for drivers and passengers then it will be adopted even if it requires prohibiting cyclists from using roads.

The right of the many for increased safety will quickly trump the right of the few for recreational use.

[BobO]

I have a Ford with lane assist - same thing. the car fights you unless you put the signal indicator on.

Remarkably stupid system.

There are preferences in the Ford system, should be able to reduce the assist.

[Anarchist]

There are preferences in the Ford system, should be able to reduce the assist.

There are, and you can. It is my 'wife's" car in that she is the primary driver and it is set to what she likes. I find it so off-putting I actually try to avoid driving it.

I haven't actually asked her what she makes of it in the circumstance where she may be passing someone on the right - must do so.

the fact remains, unless you turn the system off, it fights you. Just a question of how much.

[Spaghetti Legs]

The owners manual for the Tesla autopilot is pretty clear that it should only be used on freeways. I am a Tesla owner, mine predates the autopilot, but I’ve used service loaners with the auto pilot a couple of times. It is absolutely clear from my brief experiences with it that it should not be used in non freeway driving. My guess is the guy wasn’t riding his bike on a freeway, so finger pointing needs to be at the driver and not Tesla. When the day comes for me to get a new Tesla ( not anytime soon, mine is 4.5 years and going strong) I’ve decided already to not pay for the autopilot becuase it just isn’t that useful and maybe even dangerous. I could see a use for those people who spend a couple of hours a day in bumper to bumper freeway traffic.

[azrider]

Meanwhile, over here in good ole USofA, we got bozos like this guy who smoke weed while their Tesla is on autopilot AND videoing themselves on social media at the same time.

:eek:

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/man-smoking-weed-in-a-tesla-model-s-on-autopilot-is-not-what-you-want-to-see-121693_1.jpg

[shovelhd]

The owners manual for the Tesla autopilot is pretty clear that it should only be used on freeways.

Well that makes me feel safe. :rolleyes:

[sipmeister]

Meanwhile, over here in good ole USofA, we got bozos like this guy who smoke weed while their Tesla is on autopilot AND videoing themselves on social media at the same time.

:eek:

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/man-smoking-weed-in-a-tesla-model-s-on-autopilot-is-not-what-you-want-to-see-121693_1.jpg

Whoa, looky there, one of the country's finest!

[MattTuck]

a few things

1. Yes, not sure this was autopilot yet. But I think the article noted this is the first known fatality in a car that has an autonomous (semi) driving feature. We await more info on this.

2. From what I understand, Tesla has been aggressive (some would say reckless) about pushing the autopilot feature. This is mainly because there is not a huge demand for electric cars, and the autopilot was a real point of differentiation. So, there was a bit of over promising and hype there.

3. Tesla is not the most advanced autonomous driving system. It just happens to have been pushed the hardest and has the most brand recognition. I fully expect more advances from other manufacturers to be released when they consider it ready, in the coming years.

4. A friend drove his brother's Toyota Landcruiser (i think from 2014) which is obviously an expensive top of the line vehicle. He also drove his Dad's 2017 Honda CR-V. A $30K car. He said the lane assist in the Honda was markedly better than the few year old Landcruiser. The stuff is getting better.

5. Agree with the folks that say, despite advances, it is really not fair to be part of an experiment being conducted on public roads without any kind of informed consent or notification.

6. In the long term, I am more optimistic about autonomous cars being a net positive for the safety of all road users. In the short term, it looks a little more turbulent and probably will be for a number of years. But, as cameras, sensors, processing power, machine learning, inter-vehicle communication, etc. all improve, I am hopeful for the future of road safety. Certainly more so than if we just let people keep getting distracted by their devices.

[azrider]

a few things

1. Yes, not sure this was autopilot yet. But I think the article noted this is the first known fatality in a car that has an autonomous (semi) driving feature. We await more info on this.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-driver-killed-autopilot-self-driving-car-harry-potter

[Kontact]

I don't want a machine driving me, but like the overwhelming majority of drivers, I think I'm an above average driver. ;)

I think if today 50% of cars were on autopilot, the accident rate with other cars, bikes and pedestrians would all be largely human error.

Chances are there will be less of most kinds of accidents but slightly more of some, but I don't think cyclists will suffer unduly.


None of us signed on to be participants in a AI training program, but we are already engaged in a massive teenager training program. A dozen AIs are going to cause fewer problems than a few million new teenagers every year.

[MattTuck]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-driver-killed-autopilot-self-driving-car-harry-potter


Oooh, right. Sorry, I misquoted what was in the article. First fatality not in the car. ie. the victim was not a passenger in the autonomous car, but was an outside road user.

[azrider]

Oooh, right. Sorry, I misquoted what was in the article. First fatality not in the car. ie. the victim was not a passenger in the autonomous car, but was an outside road user.



Ahhhhh.....gotcha. Carry on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Black Dog]

The trend of the car industry is really disgusting.

The create poorly conceived 'infotainment' to distract driving. The focus is on emulating a phone, not driving. People can barely walk without hitting something nowadays, much less operate infotainment systems.

Instead of making these systems safer, they double down and make them more complex.

Then, add "safety aids" like lane keeping, collision warning/braking
when they should really call it "Driving while texting aids"

Then they double down with autonomous systems.

Drivers no long are responsible for killing people. No responsibility at all. Now it's "the car's fault".

/end rant

This. The one thing that must be preserved at all costs is the complete lack of responsibility and accountability of the driver. Driving is another part of a person's day that is only about them.

[marciero]

As I've said all along, I will bet that the logic in these systems will prioritize protecting the occupants at all costs. If comes down to Hal .vs. something in the way, a cyclist is no different than a squirrel, turkey, or possum.

+1

Until a few highly publicized and expensive civil lawsuit are won, unfortunately.

Not a autonomous driver fanboy here.


My understanding is that Mercedes has already stated that this is their design principle (at least in simple terms, and I am not sure about the "at all costs" part). Still, this does not mean cyclists and possums wont be safer. How many cyclist deaths are caused because the driver chose to protect himself from injury?

As far as the legal ramifications, I am sure that has been thought through; albeit maybe from a cynical cost/benefit perspective. There will be fewer lawsuits. On the other hand, law and ethics are most definitely behind the technology at this point, and not just for autonomous vehicles.

[William]

I wouldn't drive any car that fights me if I try to make corrections. To me the driving experience is fun. I like to feel the road, work the mechanics, and actually drive the car. Taking that experience away and turning me into a couch potato in a car has absolutely zero appeal to me. Nope, nada, zilch.

They can keep their autonomous and assisted driving cars.






William

[AngryScientist]

i havent been paying attention to how this tech is evolving, but i just dont grasp the concept.

people are going to be expected to sit behind the wheel in a drivers seat and "pay attention" as if they were driving the car, but they are really not driving the car?

i think there are only two good options

1) drive the car, full control
2) sit in the back seat and turn your attention fully off

most people, myself included, just dont have the attention span to really pay attention to the road if they are not actually driving the car. i dont see how this "semi autonomous" mode could ever really work well.

side note: i fell asleep on the train this morning. it was a lovely nap. no cyclists were at risk.

[William]

i think there are only two good options

1) drive the car, full control
2) sit in the back seat and turn your attention fully off



Only one option....full control!





;):):)
William

[Black Dog]

i don't want a machine driving me, but like the overwhelming majority of drivers, i think i'm an above average driver. ;)

i think if today 50% of cars were on autopilot, the accident collision rate with other cars, bikes and pedestrians would all be largely human error.

Chances are there will be less of most kinds of accidents collisions but slightly more of some, but i don't think cyclists will suffer unduly.


None of us signed on to be participants in a ai training program, but we are already engaged in a massive teenager training program. A dozen ais are going to cause fewer problems than a few million new teenagers every year.


fify ;)

[MattTuck]

i havent been paying attention to how this tech is evolving, but i just dont grasp the concept.

people are going to be expected to sit behind the wheel in a drivers seat and "pay attention" as if they were driving the car, but they are really not driving the car?

i think there are only two good options

1) drive the car, full control
2) sit in the back seat and turn your attention fully off

most people, myself included, just dont have the attention span to really pay attention to the road if they are not actually driving the car. i dont see how this "semi autonomous" mode could ever really work well.

side note: i fell asleep on the train this morning. it was a lovely nap. no cyclists were at risk.

Yes, this is a similar conclusion to the one Volvo made. The idea of driving within the lines until something happens and then thrusting control back on the driver is a terrible system, for a number of reasons.

The Volvo design philosophy basically says that the car has to be negotiate the situation at hand to a point where it is safe to hand control over to the driver, which I think means finding a place to pull over and fully stop the car. The idea of semi-autonomous driving is being pushed to sell cars, not because it is a well thought out system.

[tuscanyswe]

i havent been paying attention to how this tech is evolving, but i just dont grasp the concept.

people are going to be expected to sit behind the wheel in a drivers seat and "pay attention" as if they were driving the car, but they are really not driving the car?

i think there are only two good options

1) drive the car, full control
2) sit in the back seat and turn your attention fully off

most people, myself included, just dont have the attention span to really pay attention to the road if they are not actually driving the car. i dont see how this "semi autonomous" mode could ever really work well.

side note: i fell asleep on the train this morning. it was a lovely nap. no cyclists were at risk.

I agree completely and its mind-blowing that this is legally beeing done to so many new cars.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . speficially. It's about autopilot design. Electric propulsion in particular--hopefully with advancing technology for renewables charging--is a developing area that shows great promise. Not sure why you would equate electric cars with robotic drivers? The two are only connected here because it's a Tesla.

I really don't see the appeal or attraction to electric cars.

[Mark McM]

None of us signed on to be participants in a AI training program, but we are already engaged in a massive teenager training program. A dozen AIs are going to cause fewer problems than a few million new teenagers every year.

Unless autonomous vehicles allow teenagers to use both hands to throw bottles and cans at cyclists :eek:

[Mark McM]

My understanding is that Mercedes has already stated that this is their design principle (at least in simple terms, and I am not sure about the "at all costs" part). Still, this does not mean cyclists and possums wont be safer. How many cyclist deaths are caused because the driver chose to protect himself from injury?

The result to the cyclist might be same. But it might be different when it comes to finding blame (and apportioning punishment). It is very difficult to assess what is in the mind of a driver. But a software algorithm is easily analyzed (and may even have a recorded a log of decision making). That kind of evidence will probably make it far easier to force changes in the algorithm than it is to change the "hearts and minds" of typical drivers.

[William]

What will the computer choose, back of the truck or the cyclist?




William

[Mark McM]

Yes, this is a similar conclusion to the one Volvo made. The idea of driving within the lines until something happens and then thrusting control back on the driver is a terrible system, for a number of reasons.

Aircraft have used autopilot systems for decades. Mostly, they have improved overall safety. But there have been a number of instances where the autopilot shut (usually due to conditions outside its ability to handle), and in which the human pilot was suddenly dumped into a situation that they didn't know how they got into or have the time to figure out how to handle, resulting in catastrophe.

[54ny77]

probably the same as the human looking at self-preservation: the cyclist.

god forbid any of us are ever in that situation in a vehicle, but to use an analogy, given the choice between ditching the airplane in the sea and going down with it, for example, vs. ejecting to safety and plane crashing into a suburban setting, what would you do?

presume military pilots trained to sacrifice their life if it comes to that, but the average driver....not so much.

What will the computer choose, back of the truck or the cyclist?

William

[verticaldoug]

Don't worry, Mr Musk wants to unleash his Semi-Truck pulling large loads at the same time as semi-autonomous Truck platoons.... (2019-20)

[verticaldoug]

I don't want a machine driving me, but like the overwhelming majority of drivers, I think I'm an above average driver. ;)

I think if today 50% of cars were on autopilot, the accident rate with other cars, bikes and pedestrians would all be largely human error.

Chances are there will be less of most kinds of accidents but slightly more of some, but I don't think cyclists will suffer unduly.


None of us signed on to be participants in a AI training program, but we are already engaged in a massive teenager training program. A dozen AIs are going to cause fewer problems than a few million new teenagers every year.

As a human driver, you should be able to game the machine. Merging? I know the machine will yield. It could be quite fun to mess with the machine.

[verticaldoug]

erm. why do they have to decide who/what gets hit at all? are they not capable of tracking obstacles and simply slowing down? i get if something darts out into the road the car will opt not to veer into oncoming traffic, but it can still hit the brakes.

and fwiw, this is about autopilot, not electric cars. this incident happens to be a tesla but there's gas cars with this 'feature' as well.

This all started with Bill Gates at Comdesk

At a recent computer exposition, Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated: “If General Motors had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.”

In response to Bill’s comments, GM issued a press release stating: “If General Motors had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:

For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.

Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason, you would simply accept this.

Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive – but would run on only five percent of the roads.

The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single “General Protection Fault” warning light.

The airbag system would ask “Are you sure?” before deploying.

Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.

Every time GM introduced a new car, car buyers would have to learn to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.

You’d have to press the “Start” button to turn the engine off.

(I have a new Mercedes, I think the last two are now true. I miss the 90's)

[BobO]

god forbid any of us are ever in that situation in a vehicle, but to use an analogy, given the choice between ditching the airplane in the sea and going down with it, for example, vs. ejecting to safety and plane crashing into a suburban setting, what would you do?

Maybe I'm weird, but, that's just not a hard question. You avoid the innocent at almost any cost.

[sand fungus]

I have owned a Tesla and in my opinion they are dangerously over hyping the the capabilities of the system. I am smart enough to know this and use the system where it is appropriate and safe, unfortunately not everyone is and I think Tesla should have taken that into account and only offered the autopilot when it was really ready to operate in a level 4 autonomous mode.

Now autonomous trucks, having that same level of technology with 80,000 lbs behind it operated by drivers that don't understand the risks is down right criminal!!!

The solution for cyclists is coming and it comes in the form of Vehicle to pedestrian/cyclist communication, with that the autonomus cars will know you are there and move over to make it safe to pass. I expect that will work with the phone of the cyclist/pedestrian. The EU is legislating some of that so only time before it comes to the us.

[Kontact]

Maybe I'm weird, but, that's just not a hard question. You avoid the innocent at almost any cost.

Passengers?