Biking on packed snowmobile trails

[moose8]

I do an annual winter trip in Baxter park in Maine and this year is my 10th anniversary of the trip and I want to change it up a bit. I’ve always skied the whole way dragging a sled full of gear and beer. I’ve always wanted to try it on a fatbike but I don’t have one.

I do have an anniversary surly 1x1 that has 24 inch large marge wheels with 3 inch arrow brand tires. I also have a set of 26 inch Marge lite rims I could get built into wheels. I understand 3 inch tires will work with this bike/rim combo. But building new wheels will be more expensive.

I need to cover 13 rolling miles that is gaining elevation the whole way. I will also need to drag a pulk, but would probably also carry stuff on the bike.

Any with experience or thoughts about 24x3 vs 26x3 choice and whether those sizes could work on a packed snowmobile trail while dragging a pulk?

Thanks for any advice!

[Hobine]

It will all depend on the snow conditions that day. There are days when nothing works better than a studded skinny and others where you need the fat tires.
My experience is that fats have the best chance of success on more days.
I’d try and borrow a real fat bike. Nate tires work great on those Marge rims.

[p nut]

If the snow is hard and temps are way below freezing, you should be fine. But snow conditions change throughout the day. From solid, pavement-like surface to slushy/mushy. You will suffer if this happens. Most likely push-a-thon. Even with 4" tires, you'll need to air down quite a bit to stay upright. I've gone 1-2psi at times.

I would also suggest borrowing a bike with a minimum of 3.8" tires. Or just buy my Commando. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=213223) :D

[BikeNY]

Are bikes allowed on the trails you plan to ride? Most snowmobile trails systems do not allow bikes.

And, as others have said, it will depend on the snow conditions, which can change drastically very quickly. I would rather ski 13 miles than push my bike for 13 miles!

[Mikej]

i'd stay clear of the sled trails unless sledding -

[unterhausen]

I tried riding on snomobile tracks, and it didn't work. Took me a while to become disentangled from the mess I got myself in. Depends on how packed they are. Definitely make sure it's ok.

[moose8]

Bikes are permitted by the park. The snowmobile trails are packed from the rangers driving in and out so there’s barely any actual traffic but the trails are packed. Non-ranger snowmobiles are only allowed a tiny portion of the route we take in.

It tends to be super cold that time of year (-20 Fahrenheit before windchill was the coldest) so slushy snow is not a concern when I’m going (first week of February). Borrowing a real fatbike isn’t a possibility since I don’t know anyone with one. It’s a Sufferfest on skis dragging 70 pounds or so of gear and beer (I say this having done it many times), though the return trip isn’t bad since that’s mostly downhill.

I know I can do it on skis no problem, but biking sure sounds like fun. I guess I’ll just see if I can’t do a few test rides with what I have beforehand. I was hoping someone would say “yeah definitely doable” but doesn’t seem that’s the case.

[p nut]

i'd stay clear of the sled trails unless sledding -

Places I go here are multi-use--skis, snowshoes, bikes, and sleds. I do hate them things, though. Loud, smelly, and some get a little crazy. Fortunately, most are very courteous and you can hear them coming from ways away. But I still ride with a big red blinky.

[p nut]

Bikes are permitted by the park. The snowmobile trails are packed from the rangers driving in and out so there’s barely any actual traffic but the trails are packed. Non-ranger snowmobiles are only allowed a tiny portion of the route we take in.

It tends to be super cold that time of year (-20 Fahrenheit before windchill was the coldest) so slushy snow is not a concern when I’m going (first week of February). Borrowing a real fatbike isn’t a possibility since I don’t know anyone with one. It’s a Sufferfest on skis dragging 70 pounds or so of gear and beer (I say this having done it many times), though the return trip isn’t bad since that’s mostly downhill.

I know I can do it on skis no problem, but biking sure sounds like fun. I guess I’ll just see if I can’t do a few test rides with what I have beforehand. I was hoping someone would say “yeah definitely doable” but doesn’t seem that’s the case.

If it's that cold, you should have problems with traction. But being that cold, you might run into pretty rough terrain. Snowmobile tracks that freeze make for a bone-jarring ride (think railroad tracks). I'd want fattest tires I could get for that (and gears!).

But I believe Mr. WM Robinson aka wayfarer rode through some cold, snowy trails on a SS road bike. So you're better off that he was. :D

[onekgguy]

I think the part that would concern me most would be how you're going to keep your toes warm. I've ridden in -17ºF and I'm good for about 90 minutes at that temp before my feet turn to bricks of ice. I've used everything from Lake winter cycling boots to regular boots but still the cold eventually wins out. I would guess you'll be out there at least a couple of hours considering you're pulling a sled -- maybe longer.

I don't see a problem riding on a snowmobile trail at all. I've snuck on them here at an off time of the week and they're heavenly.

Best of luck for a great experience and be sure to try and take a photo or two to post here!

Kevin g

[moose8]

I think the part that would concern me most would be how you're going to keep your toes warm. I've ridden in -17ºF and I'm good for about 90 minutes at that temp before my feet turn to bricks of ice. I've used everything from Lake winter cycling boots to regular boots but still the cold eventually wins out. I would guess you'll be out there at least a couple of hours considering you're pulling a sled -- maybe longer.

I don't see a problem riding on a snowmobile trail at all. I've snuck on them here at an off time of the week and they're heavenly.

Best of luck for a great experience and be sure to try and take a photo or two to post here!

Kevin g

Plan would to be to wear my mountaineering boots while biking. I’ve never gotten cold in them - after the first year where I got kind of scared being out in the cold I bought a pretty heavy duty pair of scarpas which seem to do the trick. On skis the trip takes a long time, though it can vary completely depending on conditions. But the time of year I’m going it’s usually fast snow - late feb/March is when it can get dicey in terms of conditions with thawing and refreezing.

If I end up biking I’ll definitely take some pictures and report back.

[cetuximab]

I need to cover 13 rolling miles that is gaining elevation the whole way. I will also need to drag a pulk, but would probably also carry stuff on the bike.



I pull my kids in a chariot with cross country skis attachments replacing the wheels.

You will need 4 or 5 in wide fat tires.

Your surly single speed is the wrong tool.

My first fat bike was only 600 or 800 on bikes direct. There are likely other cheaper options.

[cetuximab]

I think the part that would concern me most would be how you're going to keep your toes warm. I've ridden in -17ºF and I'm good for about 90 minutes at that temp before my feet turn to bricks of ice.



Biking results is less circulation to the feet. Hence the invention of cyclo cross. Hiking, cross country skiing you perfuse you feet better and you feet stay warm with less insulation. It is cheap insurance to take a couple packs of toe warmers in you coat pocket.

[commonguy001]

Plan would to be to wear my mountaineering boots while biking. I’ve never gotten cold in them - after the first year where I got kind of scared being out in the cold I bought a pretty heavy duty pair of scarpas which seem to do the trick. On skis the trip takes a long time, though it can vary completely depending on conditions. But the time of year I’m going it’s usually fast snow - late feb/March is when it can get dicey in terms of conditions with thawing and refreezing.

If I end up biking I’ll definitely take some pictures and report back.

If they do get cold , jump off and push for a bit running along side. I'm guessing you'll be fine if you do that and wear those boots. Heat packs as already mentioned for a back-up plan if it's really cold.

Wheel wise bigger is better. 26" will roll better on packed snow than 24". 3" is pretty small for snow but if it's hard pack you should be fine.

[marciero]

Local intel could be helpful. I'm a Mainer but have never done anything like this. There must be some who've ridden these tracks, albeit likely without dragging full camping gear. You could ask at bike shops. Bike Man in Wiscassett is pretty fat-bikey. Plan well and get the right equipment. You already have knowledge of the snow conditions. But if the right equipment also means fat bike then you can get one cheap or rent one. LL Bean rents them for like $75/day as I recall. That gets pricey, yes, but not outrageous for two-day trip. (Plus you can return it 24/7).
Also, you might want to re-think the rest of your equipment and do it bike-packing style with frame, bar, and saddle packs rather than dragging a sled. This would mean paring things down a bit, perhaps replacing things with lighter smaller things, and additional expense.

[stien]

As someone who frequently drags a trailer full of dog on the road (they total 130# now), there's NFW I'd consider towing anything on a single speed, let alone in the snow.

My fat bike has 26x3.8" and I typically use every bit of the 42t cog getting through the mashed potato snow. If it's frozen and packed, it's like riding on pavement though.

[moose8]

I’ve got an alfine hub so doesn’t need to be single speed. I need a sled because you need to leave your bike at roaring brook before the last section up chimney pond. Even on skis it is never close to anything like easy, especially with the amount I drag in (I like to eat and drink well). I’ll do some tests and see if it seems possible. The part I would bike on are gravel access roads in the summer so they are pretty wide and flat. It’s just in winter they close the gates where normally you could just drive in and they get well packed down pretty quick.

Half the fun is planning and adjusting gear. I definitely now have it dialed in on skis but this seems like a fun challenge if I can make it work with what I have.

Worst decision I made was bringing a chariot trailer last year with the ski adapters on trails (not roads) through the woods. Full of stuff the thing tipped over left and right whenever the narrow trail was at all uneven, which is pretty much all the time on a hiking trail in winter in Maine. Turns out the cheap Parris sled is still the best tool for the job.

We will see. Hopefully no one reads a story about an idiot freezing on a bike in Baxter come February. Everyone’s input is useful though and has reinforced the need to really test before trying.

[onekgguy]

Biking results is less circulation to the feet. Hence the invention of cyclo cross. Hiking, cross country skiing you perfuse you feet better and you feet stay warm with less insulation. It is cheap insurance to take a couple packs of toe warmers in you coat pocket.

I've never had much success with toe warmers. I attributed it to the lack of oxygen in my shoes/boots for them to function.

Kevin g

[jimcav]

I have only little experience biking on snow--which was mainly small areas while MTB, but just think this is a cool thing to try. Just experiencing the difference 2.2 to 2.5 makes on riding on loose sandy trails, I have to think on packed snow you will be okay on big tires. a few years back, either here here or across the hall there was an amazing Ti bike for sale that had been ridden for bike camping in the artic (had propane storage built into the frame tubing etc)--so the issue of riding with a heavy load on snow has been done...

[Mikej]

Places I go here are multi-use--skis, snowshoes, bikes, and sleds. I do hate them things, though. Loud, smelly, and some get a little crazy. Fortunately, most are very courteous and you can hear them coming from ways away. But I still ride with a big red blinky.

Cool, in Wisconsin, we LOVE THE MOTOR...cyclists beware

[2metalhips]

I've ridden lot's of snowmobile packed trails with 2.35 tires w/o a problem. Great fun. Low pressure is your friend. I would be a bit concerned with controlling the sled on the descents however. I go to BSP every year and camp and ride in the northern section of the park. I've hiked Katahdin many times but never in the winter. I also recommend toe warmers. Good luck.

[junebug]

I have friends who have ridden in to Roaring Brook the last few years pulling sleds. They said they were 2x as fast as they used to be on skis. One even rode all the way up to Chimney Pond by accident, not realizing it wasn't allowed.

They all used true fat bikes (3.8" - 4.5" tires) with gears. Go for it!

You can rent fat bikes from Allspeed or Cyclemania in Portland if you want to, I'm sure they would negotiate a weekly rate for a cool trip.

As you know, you can ride a bike anywhere in Baxter that cars can travel in summer, but not where there is no road below you.

[xjoex]

I ride on snow about 7 months a year. If it is packed down and frozen a 26 x 3" tire should do fine. I use 5" tires and really like them. Sometimes a ski/snowshoe/bike trail will become so packed a wonder if I even need the fat bike. then I step off trail and remember why.

But when you add in a sled, that might be your problem area, when the snow gets soft or the trail gets steep you might end up digging in. I started out with 26x3.8" tires and was happy for a few years. Then I got a bigger tire and man it is nice.

Pic from a ride on Wednesday.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4559/26813971949_508f7e4419_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GRsBFc)PB220065 (https://flic.kr/p/GRsBFc) by Joe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/indianpeaksjoe/), on Flickr

If you end up liking it, then go get a full fledged fatty for next year!

Cheers,

-Joe

[djg21]

Plan would to be to wear my mountaineering boots while biking. I’ve never gotten cold in them - after the first year where I got kind of scared being out in the cold I bought a pretty heavy duty pair of scarpas which seem to do the trick. On skis the trip takes a long time, though it can vary completely depending on conditions. But the time of year I’m going it’s usually fast snow - late feb/March is when it can get dicey in terms of conditions with thawing and refreezing.

If I end up biking I’ll definitely take some pictures and report back.

Are you skiing Katahdin? I always wanted to, but never got the chance.

[moose8]

I have friends who have ridden in to Roaring Brook the last few years pulling sleds. They said they were 2x as fast as they used to be on skis. One even rode all the way up to Chimney Pond by accident, not realizing it wasn't allowed.

They all used true fat bikes (3.8" - 4.5" tires) with gears. Go for it!

You can rent fat bikes from Allspeed or Cyclemania in Portland if you want to, I'm sure they would negotiate a weekly rate for a cool trip.

As you know, you can ride a bike anywhere in Baxter that cars can travel in summer, but not where there is no road below you.

Great specific info - I'm convinced it's worth a try, and based on what someone else just said I'll just use what I have. Worst case scenario I push a bike dragging a sled.

And I have skied from Baxter peak many times - it depends on the snow - you want the tablelands to fill in - but it's fun and it is so much faster on the descent than down climbing. It takes me hours to hike up and then minutes to get back to Chimney Pond. It is a lot of stuff to carry though.

[merlinmurph]

Man, Chimney Pond is heaven on earth. Without a doubt one of the prettiest places I've been to. Never been in the winter, though.

[p nut]

Looking at xjoex's photo reminded me. If you're looking for mittens, I picked up a cheap pair from the army surplus store. Best part is the separate trigger finger that I use to brake.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2Br7rIxiOL._UX522_.jpg

[moose8]

Man, Chimney Pond is heaven on earth. Without a doubt one of the prettiest places I've been to. Never been in the winter, though.

If you like it in the summer you should go in the winter. It’s one of the prettiest places I’ve ever been when it’s all covered in snow and there are very few people there.

[2metalhips]

Man, Chimney Pond is heaven on earth. Without a doubt one of the prettiest places I've been to. Never been in the winter, though.

Chimney Pond IS awesome. The Traveller loop in the northern end is a great hike also, remote, VERY few people at all times.

[junebug]

Looking at xjoex's photo reminded me. If you're looking for mittens, I picked up a cheap pair from the army surplus store. Best part is the separate trigger finger that I use to brake.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2Br7rIxiOL._UX522_.jpg

Those gloves are the best! Lots available really inexpensive on eBay also. We own several pairs, by far the warmest and most adaptable gloves we own. Not light, but can handle any weather.

[bewheels]

Go for it.

A couple of data points:
- We used to ride on the snow machine trails on 1.9 - 2.1 tires in Western Maine in the 1980s and survived. It was huge fun. ...we were not pulling trailers but did cover a lot of ground.

- Before the advent of fat tires, people were doing this little ol' race in Alaska on "regular" mt bikes. John Stamstad (http://halfpastdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/555978_10151509218286974_249774354_n-1.jpg)

This is not to say that fatter isn't better, etc. Just pointing out that this is not a new thing.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is having a plan for doing this trip while it is snowing. It is one thing to have varying conditions due to temps and how well packed the trails are, it is another game entirely if snow is coming down while you are making the trip. A foot of new snow while you are on route could turn this adventure into a really bad idea. My two cents - if there is a change of new snow falling on the day you are planing to ride in, postpone or go a day early.

[moose8]

Finally did this trip. Just got back today. On the way in the bike was an unmitigated disaster as I had to push it the whole way because of conditions. They were soupy and unlike anything encountered the previous nine years though. Any other year it would have worked great. I couldn’t get any grip because the snow was too deep and loose. The skiers were also way slower than normal for the same reasons.

The ride out however was amazing. The track had thawed and frozen and the ranger had snowmobiled over it so the tires sunk through the three inches of powder or so and gripped the crusty underneath. Carrying a heavy sled attached to my waist I completely flew and just smoked all my friends on skis.

A real fatbike would have been amazing. My 2.5 inch continental diesel tires worked pretty good though. I’ll probably end up biking again next year because it was so awesome when conditions cooperated.

[cachagua]

Congrats, that sounds like a blast! (okay, the trip back at least.) I really miss winters since moving away from New England. My best friend still lives there and was a fat-bike early adopter, he's lovin' it.

First year I was in the Northwest, I went snow camping and came back covered with mosquito bites. Kinda bulls**t is that?!

So -- photos?